Devahuti’s Journey from Distress to Devotion, Part 1, Christchurch, New Zealand

Tameya Vadhyayati Devam Patyam Kapilam Harim Bhuvah Charito Vatsa Visvahatadrishhe Grihe Vishnu is. Tameya Vadhyayati Devam Patyam Kapilam Harim Bhuvah Kshirato Vatsah Tam – Unto Him Evah – Certainly Dhayati – Meditating Devam – Divine Apatyam – Sun Kapilam – Lord Kapila Harim – The Supreme Personality of Godhead Babhuvah – Became Achiratah – Very Soon Vatsah – O Dear Vidura Nispruhah – Unattached Tadrishegrihe – To such a home Translation in purport by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada Jai Prabhupada. O Vidura, thus always meditating upon her son, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kapiladeva, she very soon became unattached to her nicely decorated home.

Here is a practical example of how one can elevate oneself in spiritual advancement by Krishna Consciousness. Kapiladeva is Krishna and He appeared as the son of Devahuti. After Kapiladeva left home, Devahuti was absorbed in thought of Him and thus she was always Krishna Conscious.

Her constant situation in Krishna Consciousness enabled her to be detached from hearth and home. Unless we are able to transfer our attachment to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no possibility of becoming freed from material attachment. The Srimad Bhagavatam therefore confirms that it is not possible for one to become liberated by cultivation of empirical philosophical speculation.

Simply knowing that one is not matter but spirit, soul or Brahman does not purify one's intelligence. Even if the impersonalist reaches the highest platform of spiritual realization, he falls down again to material attachment. Because of not being situated in the transcendental loving service of the Supreme Lord.

The devotees adopt the devotional process, hearing about the Supreme Lord's pastimes and glorifying His activities. And thereby always remembering His beautiful eternal form. By rendering service, becoming His friend or His servant and offering Him everything that one possesses, one is able to enter into the kingdom of God.

As it is said in the Bhagavad Gita, After discharging pure devotional service, one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead in fact. And thus one becomes eligible to enter into His association in one of the spiritual planets. Namah Om Vishnupadaya Krishna Prashtaya Bhutale Shreemate Bhaktivedanta Swami Itinamine Namaste Saraswati Devi Gauravani Pracharine Nirvishesha Shunyavadi Pashyatya Deshatarine Vansha Kalpatarubhyascha Kripa Sindhubhyavecha Patitanam Pavanibhyo Vishnavibhyo Namonamaha Jai Shri Krishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nithyananda Shri Advaita Gadadhara Shri Vasadhi Gaurabhakta Vrinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare My dear Lord, please guide us all so that in moments of distress we may take shelter of you and deepen our devotion to you.

Hare Krishna Is this recording started here? I am grateful that all of you have come today morning and it is a joy to be here. And today we are discussing the conclusion, the climax, the denominator of one of the longest pastimes or the longest sections in the Bhagavatam. So I'll talk about this in… Generally when I take a Bhagavatam class I try to take it in three broad parts.

We discuss what I call as the acronym CHIT, that we'll discuss the context, what is going on right now in the Bhagavatam. Because sometimes the Bhagavatam is such a big book that we may overlook the context. Then we'll discuss some insights and then finally I'll discuss some takeaways.

So the idea is that we try to expand our consciousness. CHIT also means consciousness. So we try to expand our consciousness through understanding the words of the Bhagavatam.

So the Bhagavatam, let's look at it in the big picture. How many cantos are there in the Bhagavatam? 12 cantos, yes. Any idea how many chapters are there in the Bhagavatam? Yeah, 335 chapters are there.

Now out of this, the longest is the 10th canto. It has 90 chapters and it's almost one third of the entire Bhagavatam. And after that 10th canto, the two longest sections in the Bhagavatam are in the 11th canto and the 3rd canto.

So 11th canto is what is called as Uddhava Gita. It is what Krishna speaks to Uddhava. It goes over almost 25 chapters in that canto.

And here in the 3rd canto, we have the Kapil Devahuti Samvad. So this is, we could say, the single third longest section of the Bhagavatam. Now of course we could say the 10th canto is one canto, it's not one section.

So in that sense we could say this is the second longest after the Uddhava Gita. One pastime or one discussion goes on for a fairly long amount of time. And we have come to the end of it.

Now this pastime, if we look at the pastime itself, let's take a deeper dive into this now to see where we are at. If we go back to the chapters over here, we will see that this whole section, here it is mentioned Vatsa is referred to as Vidura. Oh Vidura, this is how Devahuti renounced the world.

So the Bhagavatam is often like a conversation within a conversation within a conversation. So what is happening over here, this conversation between Maitreya and Vidura, this is not starting actually the 20th chapter. This starts right over here from Vidura approaches Maitreya, the 4th chapter.

So let me explain this visually. See the Bhagavatam, the meta conversation is between Suta Goswami and the sages, Shaunaka and the other sages. Now that is the big conversation in the Bhagavatam.

Within that big conversation, the defining conversation is what the book is celebrated as, the conversation between Shukadeva Goswami and Parikshit Maharaj. Now within that, a third level of conversation is, okay this is not that big. Let me just keep it for visual depiction over here for clarity.

This is the conversation between Maitreya and Vidura. And within that discussion between Maitreya and Vidura, there is this conversation between Kapila and Devahuti. So right now we are in the stage of nested conversations.

We are in this 4th stage of conversation, Kapila and Devahuti. And we are coming to the end of this conversation. So if we look at this conversation between Kapila and Devahuti, the 4th level of conversation, let's see where it starts.

See here it is described that this pastime itself starts from chapter 21. So I will just go over the pastime. What I am trying to do is give a context to these teachings.

What is going to be spoken and what is happening over here. So in Devahuti's life, there are broadly, if we consider linearly, there is chapter 21 to chapter 33. So chapter 21, if we go back over here, what do we see over here? That is the description between Manu and Kardama where Devahuti's wedding is finalized.

And then she gets married and her husband is so absorbed in transcendence and she is diligently serving him. But to a large extent he neglects his family. He neglects her.

And then she has a desire for a child and that's a lamentation of Devahuti's lamentation. And then he creates a beautiful palace for her and they unite and then they have Kapila as a child. And then immediately Kardama departs.

And after Kardama departs, that's chapter 24. So from 25 onwards, Kapila, her son, is speaking to her. And that from 25 to 33 is the discussion.

Chapters 25 to 33. So if we go back, so her wedding, then her service to her husband, then her husband's renunciation, he takes sannyas, and then they have a child of course. And then after that we consider, actually this is her service, she has a child, this is 23.

The renunciation of her husband is 24. And then from there on 25 to 33 is Kapila speaking to Devahuti. So it is nine chapters.

So if you go back over here, this is 3.25 to 3.33. And we are somewhere here right now. The whole conversation is ending. And as the conversation is ending, what is the effect on Devahuti of this whole conversation? That is being described.

See sometimes when we just focus on the philosophy in the Bhagavatam, and sometimes many of the verses may seem similar, the purports may seem similar, and then how, what is the human impact of this message may be lost. In fact, see the Bhagavatam is not just abstract philosophy. It is a philosophy that changes hearts and changes lives.

And understanding how it impacts the characters also helps us to appreciate the message. Like we, if we go to a medical college or medical school and we hear, also there is interdisciplinary medical seminar. Okay, this is how allopathy works, this is how naturopathy works, this is how Ayurveda works, this is how Chinese medicine works.

Okay, all that. It's interesting to hear. But if you meet people who seem to have incurable conditions, and they have been cured, then the whole knowledge becomes much more alive.

So like that, the Bhagavatam is not just philosophy. It is philosophy that transforms lives and transforms hearts. So what is the impact on Devahuti of this whole discussion? So that is described in this verse.

So what happens is, we are in 3, if we consider the 33rd chapter, we are towards the end now in text 22. So in text 22, what is happening? It is tam evadhyayati, that she meditates. It is described in the previous verse that when her son has left her, you know, she is feeling completely forsaken, completely alone.

Now her husband has renounced the world. Now her son has also gone. And she is all alone.

And generally in life, we have two kinds of relationships. You know, we have what we can call as horizontal relationships with others. We have horizontal relationships with others.

Now horizontal means with other human beings. It could be our parents, it could be our children, it could be our spouses and siblings and friends. They are all human beings.

So the horizontal is our human relationships. And we also have a vertical relationship with our Lord. And this is the bhakti relationship.

This is with Krishna. This is with the Lord. Now the idea is that normally our attention is consumed by the horizontal relationships.

It could be our friends, our colleagues, our family. And they are the people who are visible to us. They are the people with whom we interact most of the time.

So quite often for many people, the vertical dimension is not there at all in their life. Now there are two ways to develop this vertical relationship. So the vertical relationship, if we consider the relationship between, the vertical is the relationship with our Lord.

So vertical is we could say the divine relationship. Now sometimes in romance novels, people may say that my relationship with my spouse, our romantic partner is also divine love or divine relationship. But that's more of a sentimental thing.

A divine relationship is a relationship with the divine. So the vertical relationship can be developed in two ways. One is by rejecting the horizontal.

That all the relationships in this world are temporary. We either reject the horizontal and go towards the vertical or we redirect the horizontal. So that through the horizontal we go to the vertical.

That means reject means what? See if I am here, then basically this is Krishna. Then I have a bond over here. I break this bond.

And then I focus on this relationship. This is reject the horizontal to go towards the vertical. So for example, if somebody takes sannyas, at that time to some extent that is rejecting the horizontal to go to the vertical.

But the other is this is not the only way. We redirect. That means that through the horizontal we go to the vertical.

So for example, consider a child. A child is not meant to reject the parent and the parents are not meant to reject the child. But the parents train the child in such a way that the child's natural respect and affection for the parents leads to the child's devotion to the Lord.

So now both these ways are valuable and valid for developing the vertical relationship. That means through the horizontal relationship and beyond the horizontal relationship, independent of the horizontal relationship. So through the chapters when Kapila was instructing Devahuti, he was helping her develop the horizontal relationship.

So there is an inversion of hierarchies in the Bhagavatam quite often. Normally it is the parent who instructs the child. This is the normal way the vertical relationships or the horizontal relationship develops.

The parent instructs or guides the child. Now here it is the son who is guiding the mother. Of course the son is no ordinary son.

But it is Kapila himself who is the Supreme Lord's incarnation. So the Shakespeare also said from the mouth of the babes that the child is the father of the man. So the idea is that here he is instructing her.

So we could say that from the moment he starts his instructions. So from 25 till 32 it is Kapila is helping her redirect her attachment to him towards the Lord. And now what is happening is in chapter 33 is that she is now choosing to redirect.

And in between when we talk about relationships they are not just like detachable sockets with some power plug we put in. That okay this plug is not available. Now take out this plug and put the plug somewhere else.

Put this socket is not available. Let's put it somewhere else. It's not like that.

Relationships are matters of the heart. And when we for whatever reason disconnect with a loved one. It could be because of death.

It could be because of distancing, cause of renunciation or sometimes the misunderstandings or whatever. And it causes pain to the heart. And that is also described in the previous verses of the Bhagavatam.

If you see in this section that we are discussing 33 for 22. So what had happened over here is that it is said Vanam pravarjite patyao apatya virahatura ghyat tatvapya bhun nashte vatse gaura eva vatsala Vanam pravarjite patyao that her husband had already renounced and apatya virahature. Apatya is now her son has also gone away.

Viraha atura. Viraha is separation. Atura means very agitated.

She has become. So her father has gone. Her son has gone now.

Ghyat tatvapya bhun nashte. So ghyat tatvapya. Now she knew the truth.

But. So ghyat tatvapya means she knew the truth of life and death. But still.

And bhun nashte is that it was not that she was impure. It was not she was attached. But still vatse gaura eva vatsala.

Just as a calf when it's taken away from the cow or the cow has taken away from the calf. And then natural pain. So there is pain over there.

So the Bhagavatam uses example to say that there are certain emotions that are natural. And they should not be dismissed simply as attachment. That there will be a pain when we lose a loved one.

That pain is natural. In many ways the mind is like the body. So she was very aggrieved at the loss of her son just as a cow is affected when her calf dies.

So let's look at what this means is that if we consider there are three levels of reality. There is the soul. There is the mind.

And there is the body. So one of the advantages of the Vedic model of the self as compared to say the Christian model or the Abrahamic model, whatever it is, that there in the Christian model there is no such thing as the subtle body or the mind. And that's how the soul and the body interact is always a philosophical problem in that tradition.

Now when we understand that there is the mind and the mind is different from both the soul and the body. So now what happens is the body may sometimes get injured. If the body is injured, then I may say I'm not my body.

But if I have a fracture in my leg, in my case, I have polio in my leg. Now, even if I philosophically have realized I'm far away from that realization, even if I realized I'm not the body, but still I have to function through the body. I'm not my body, but I have to live through my body.

And if the body is injured, that is going to affect me. That is going to limit me in some ways. Now, some injuries can be healed, but they may require time to heal.

Somebody has a fracture and they are told lift a heavy luggage. Now you cannot do that. Why? Because the fracture is painful.

And not only is it painful, the pain is an indication that something is wrong. And be careful over here. So don't lift heavy weights at that time.

So just as the body can be injured, the mind can also be wounded. And when the mind is wounded, at that time also a person can be emotionally overwhelmed. A person may find it difficult to deal with the situation at that time.

But just as the body can be healed, the mind can also be healed. And bhakti helps the healing of the mind. It is not that the healing will happen overnight, but it will happen.

So how does this happen? So it is described that she agreed. So if you look at these two verses, here described that the abhurnashte vatse gaurayo vatsala. She was, although she had wisdom, although she didn't have impure desires, still she was wounded.

Because the mind is a functional tool. And where the emotions have been invested, when that object is lost, there will be a wound, there will be a pain. But now, this is the verse which her healing is described.

So what did she do? tam eva dhyayati devam Let's recite this verse once again. tam eva dhyayati devam tam eva dhyayati devam So tam eva, she certainly, she dhyayati, she meditated on. Now the key point for healing the mind, for healing the body, is application of medicines, there will be some physiotherapy, there will be some rest.

So there is a procedure by which the body is healed when it is injured. And there is also a procedure by which the mind is healed. And central to that is dhyayati, what we think about.

apatyam kapilam harim So, whom did she meditate on? Now her son has gone away. In the normal situation, when somebody whom we love has gone away from our life, thinking about them causes even greater pain to us. And normally for somebody who is grieving the loss of a loved one, they are told to move on in life, and move on means think of something else.

Suppose we have lost one family member, maybe we lost a spouse or one child, we have another child to take care of, we have another family to take care of. You think of who is there and what we can do for that person. They are also grieving, we are also grieving.

So focus on not the person who is gone but the person who is there. So normally that would be the process of healing. But here it is said that she thought of the son who has gone away.

It's interesting, it's not said that she thought of the husband who had gone away. Because in her case, it was the vertical had come down to the horizontal level. The Lord had come as her son.

That's why along with the word Kapila, the word Hari is used. Kapila is the name of her son, but that is also the supreme Lord Hari. That is the Lord who can take away all our distress.

Hari is the Lord who takes away. Hara means to take away, who takes away our distress. Bhajahure mana, Shri Nandanandana, Abhaya charanaravindare.

That by meditating on the Lord, our mind becomes peaceful. So Apatyam, although this was her son, and she was thinking of her son. But while thinking of her son, what happened? She started thinking of the Lord because the son was the Lord.

So this is very similar to another pastime in the Bhagavatam. By thinking of the son, one thinks of the Lord, which is the pastime, anyone remembers? Yes, excellent. So Ajamil, what happens is, he is thinking of his son.

Now his son is not the Lord, but his son has the same name as the Lord. And while calling out Narayan, when he sees the emissaries of death, Yamadutas coming, this is the 6th Canto, he calls out Narayan. It is his child calling out, his child being called out.

But while he is calling out his child, what happens? At that time, he is reminded of the Lord Narayan, whom he had worshipped earlier. And it struck to him, this child, how can he help me? But that Lord, whom I had forgotten for so long, that Lord can help me. Therefore, let me remember that Lord.

That's why in the Bhakti tradition, when we take Diksha, we are all given spiritual names. One of the purposes of that is, that even when we are calling out each other, we actually remember the Lord. And when we do that, then what happens? We are able to actually, our normal conversations, we use it to, at a subconscious level, keep remembering the Lord.

Now sometimes we face a practical problem that we may not, sometimes our names are very long. And the names are very long, we shorten the names. So my name is Chaitanya Charan.

So one of my, one of my Diksha Gurus, whenever writes a mail to me, he writes to me, dear CCP. CCP is Chaitanya Charan Prabhu. So when I was going to America and we were having a meeting about future American outreach, so he wrote to me, dear CCP.

And an American devotee wrote back, please don't use the word CCP over here. So what is CCP? CCP is a Chinese Communist Party. So this is for Americans, the first thing you come in.

So CCP can be carbon copy. So what happens is sometimes we may shorten the names for convenience. But then it may mean something else.

And it also may mean that we may not be able to think of the Lord. So I was taking some American yoga students on a tour of India. And for them, often our Indian names are quite difficult to pronounce.

So when I introduced them, so I was going with one of my other friends, he's also a monk. So we both introduced, his name is Shamanand, my name is Chaitanya Charan. So they just couldn't get our names.

So finally, they would call us as tall monk and short monk. So then finally, one of the girls, she is a young lady, not a girl. So she said, Chaitanya.

So I said, Oh, wonderful, you got the name. How did you get the name? She said, I thought of Tanya taking chai. So chai is an Indian drink.

And Tanya is a female name. So Tanya taking chai. So I thought that, you know, in Sanskrit, we split words into two.

That is called Sandivigraha. So no Sanskrit scholar will split the word like that. But so although there's a little difficulty in sometimes pronouncing the names or calling out, using the names while calling to people, but there is spiritual potency in these names.

And as much as possible, we remember that purpose and use the full name as much as we can. So for her, it is Apatyam Kapilam Harem. So although the Lord has gone away, the Lord has not gone away.

See, as a child, he's not with her. But as the Lord, he's still with her in her heart. The Lord is everywhere.

And the Lord is as the Paramatma in the heart of everyone. So, Babhuva Cheerato Vatsa. So Vatsa is, now sometimes the same word can refer to different things in different places.

If you've seen the previous set, Vatsa was used. But there Vatsa refers to the Vatsa, that Nashte Vatsa, Vatsala. So there Vatsa refers to the child of a cow, a calf.

When a calf has gone away, the cow laments. So the Vatsala also word comes, that is affection. So here Vatsa refers to something.

And next line, here Vatsa is used. It is used as a term of affection to refer to Vidura when Maitreya is speaking. So Babhuva Achirato, became Achirato, without much time.

Chirato is a long time, Achirato is not a long time. So, soon, so she did lament for some time. Or she did, her emotions overwhelmed her for some time.

But that overwhelming of the emotions was not forever. Babhuva Achirato, what happened after that finally? Nispruha Tadrishe Grihe So Spruha means desires, attachments. And Nispruha means without them.

So by meditating on the Lord, what is the process described? Dhayati, so she meditated. On whom? On that Lord, that person who was her son, but who was also the Lord. And by that, soon, Achirato, what happened? Nispruha, she became detached.

From what? From Grihe, from her home. And what happens is, when family, there are children, for any home, the sound of children's footsteps, sound of children's laughs, the sound of children running around, that's what brings the house alive. And when the children grow up and go away, they may go to college, they may get married, they may settle somewhere else.

Then what happens? Parents often start feeling that the nest has become empty. A house feels so empty and hollow. That's just natural.

But one can stay in that state of lamentation. The house may become empty, but the heart had become full. The heart had become full because she was absorbed in the remembrance of the Lord.

And in this way, if we look at these four lines of this verse, and the four stages that are there, we are talking 3, 33, 22. So, if we consider the four lines, A, B, C and D. So the first line talks about what did she do? It was meditated, dhyayati, meditated. And then who? On her son, but who was also the Lord.

So when she meditated on him, throughout her life, she was meditating, this is my child. But now, her focus was on the fact that he is the Lord. And when she meditated on the fact that he is the Lord, what happened? Soon, soon she had detachment.

So she became detached. Nispruha. Tantra says nispruha.

So now, how does this happen? How does this happen? This process of moving from, this process of moving from, when we face loss in life, towards devotion. So that is what I will discuss in tomorrow's class. That broadly, when loss happens, loss can lead to pain.

So broadly, whenever loss happens for us, loss can lead to growth. We can, we can, we can grow up. We can grow, we can go up.

That means we can, we can move positively spiritually. Or in the moments of loss, we can resent. Why did I lose this? Why did this happen to me? And then instead of go up, we often go down.

We go down, so either in the moments of loss, we can go towards transcendence. Or we can go deeper into ignorance. So this journey, that whether we go upwards or downwards, that is one of the key moments in our life.

And we see repeatedly in the Bhagavatam, loss is faced. The start of the Bhagavatam itself is the loss, Parikshit Maharaj faces. He is a king and suddenly he loses his kingdom and he is about to lose his life.

He could go into ignorance, but he chooses to go towards transcendence. So how that happens, how to ensure that we go up and not go down, how we choose growing rather than resenting, that's what I'll discuss in tomorrow's session. So I'll summarize.

So in today's session, we discussed about Devahuti's spiritual growth and this is part one. So in the context, insights and takeaway. Today most of the class was focused on the context, that we discussed how this is the second largest conversation in the Bhagavatam after the Uddhava Gita.

That Vyasa, Kapila, Samvat and within that we discussed this is the fourth level of nesting. That there is the conversation with the Suta and Sages, then Shukadeva, Goswami, Parikshit Maharaj, Vidura and Maitreya and then there is Kapila and Devahuti. The fourth level of nesting of conversation is happening.

And in this conversation, what has happened is that for Devahuti, she has lost everyone. So there was loss, the first of her parents. She was suddenly taken from the parents home, which is very comfortable as she was a princess.

And then the husband for whom she gave everything up, that husband gave her up. So that husband gave her up and then now her son is also gone. So one after another after this, so many losses.

So in this point, how does she grow? What does she do? So we talked about the insights. So I focused much more on the context today. So we talked about two kinds of relationships.

Gauntai Bhagwan ki jai, Prabhupada ki jai. Quickly complete this. So we have horizontal relationships and we have the vertical relationship with our Lord, with Krishna.

So now from the horizontal to vertical, how do we go? There are two ways. One is that we redirect and the other is we reject. So through the material to the spiritual or giving up the material to go to the spiritual.

So chapters 25 to 32, when it is through Kapila, she is moving towards the Lord. And now reject means Kapila has left. So at one level it is no Kapila over there.

But although Kapila is not there, Kapila is the Lord. So there is a difference. So for us both ways are important.

When we have a relationship where there can be devotional element in it, whether it is they are helping us to practice bhakti or we can engage them in bhakti, we can help them grow. So we go through the horizontal to the spiritual. And the takeaway for us was that ultimately the process that when the mind is injured, I discussed, that the mind will take time to heal and the mind faces a wound.

The wound for the mind is a sense of loss. So when that loss is there, what we need to do is we remember the Lord. We remember Krishna and soon by that remembrance, what we will have is we will have detachment.

So detachment from the loss and attachment to the Lord. So how that process happens, that is what we will discuss in tomorrow's session. Thank you very much.

Hare Krishna. Is there any quick question or comment? She didn't until there was a certain period of the engagement and there were children born and the son grew up and he gave instruction and then she could take the loss for the spiritual growth. Now in the life of a progression, of a devotee, if the loss may be untimely or someone may reject the relationship prematurely due to ignorance, due to not being capable of accepting it properly, then the pain of a loss is neither taking them to the growth nor, how to say, the pain of a loss is like the pain of something that supports them.

Supports them so it will be the body that will suffer as well. So I guess the question would be, do I understand this correctly, that the loss has to be timely and we cannot reject certain relationships or certain situations that are supporting us as Dharma untimely before we can get to fully connect with Krishna. That's an important question.

See, there is, I was going to talk about this tomorrow, I will quickly rephrase the question first, that in the process of the normal growth of life, this loss is inevitable. But when somebody loses a loved one, when they are old and it is expected that death is going to come. And when there is some kind of untimely loss, so then the untimely loss is, especially because there is a rejection in the relationship, because of ignorance or whatever, then it's a support for bhakti that is lost, support for our life that is lost.

So how do we deal with that? Yes. See, in many ways, if you consider transcendence and ignorance, they are opposite. Transcendence is when we are absorbed in the Lord.

Ignorance is, transcendence means when our consciousness is focused on the Lord. Although the Lord is invisible, we are focusing on the Lord. It is very difficult to be dedicated to someone who we don't see.

That's why the idea is transcend. When we talk about ignorance, ignorance often means that we don't even care for what is visible. Leave alone the invisible.

So transcendence is, we love the invisible. So ignorance is, we don't even care for the visible. Now in both cases, there is this fact of not caring for the visible.

But it's very different. So let alone the invisible. If you can't even care for the visible, how can we care for the invisible, we can say.

If we can't love our child, we can't love our spouse. There is an American comedian who said that, I love humanity. It's just human beings I can't tolerate.

Loving humanity as an abstract principle doesn't cost anything. It's very easy to say that. But it is in real human relationship that there is messiness.

We have conditionings, other person has conditionings and managing all that is not easy. So now the rejection of the visible is itself not necessarily a sign of love for the invisible. Although sometimes it may be misunderstood to be like that.

But the idea is that for most people, it is the connection with the visible that gradually points a person to the invisible. So neglecting the visible in the name of renunciation and acting as if I am very renounced, that is not healthy. That is often it will only reinforce ignorance rather than transcendence.

I remember I was in one city and I knew that the leader over there was a bit of a hardline kind of devotee. So he introduced me and I came there only. One more devotee had come to pick me up and he introduced me.

This devotee is so sincere. When his wife refused to become a devotee, he divorced his wife. I said, is that something to glorify? We don't want our families to break apart.

And yes, sometimes it may happen and it's painful. But that should not be seen or celebrated as a model of serious devotion. It's something which is sad when a family breaks apart.

So that idea that rejecting the material is a sign of your dedication to the spiritual. Now that is, it can be true at times, but many times it can be false. So it's more of frustration rather than renunciation.

I'll talk about the difference tomorrow more. But okay, so now coming to the point when something like this happens. So, you know, we need to recognize that each of us needs certain material supports so that we can grow spiritually.

And the Gita says, युक्ताहारविहारस्य युक्तचेष्टस्य कर्मसु युक्तसप्नावभोधस्य योगोभवधिदुखा That is, now the word युक्त means regulated. But युक्त also is a variant of the word yoga, which means connected. Yoga is to connect.

So it's like a regulated connection. So the idea is that some people may be able to manage with four hours sleep. Some people need six hours sleep.

Some people need seven hours sleep. The point is not how much you sleep. The point is what you do when you are awake.

If somebody is sleeping for four hours and irritable for twenty hours, better you sleep for six, seven hours and be cheerful and be pleasant to be with for the remaining hours. So, how less one sleeps is not the sign of one's devotion. It's what we do when we are awake.

Similarly, how little somebody eats, that's not the sign of their devotion. Some people may, there was Raghunath Das Goswami who ate just a few drops of curd once in three days. And we have Bhima, he would, he is called Rukodara.

He is called a giant belly person. So the idea is that there is a certain level of material things that we may need for our spiritual growth. That can apply to relationships also.

So sometimes if one relationship does not work out, then we shouldn't just rush into the next relationship. Because then what may happen is we are not really carefully thinking whether the relationship is likely to work or not. We are more running away from the pain of the previous relationship to find some escape.

No, so we need to pause and take shelter of the Lord. Experience that connection and then we may explore another relationship. Now of course, best is if that same relationship can be healed, that's good.

But it shouldn't be happening that in the name of healing of a relationship, one is subjected to abuse. Now what the word abuse means can go into various directions. But the point is that if one needs some horizontal support, support from horizontal relationships, then that is a need which can and should be fulfilled.

And sometimes the way society is structured right now, so when Prabhupada went to America, initially he started, he arranged marriages of devotees also. He personally attended the weddings of the, not only attended, he conducted the weddings of some of the disciples earlier. And Prabhupada came from India and India still is among the few countries that has a very strong ethos of arranged marriages.

And Prabhupada expected the same ethos that the gurus arranged the marriage and it should work. And you should make it work basically. But when it didn't happen, then Prabhupada, he didn't reject the principle of marriage, but he said, I will not get involved in it.

So Prabhupada said, this is not the business of a sannyasi to be involved in marriages. So now, across the world now, we have in some places, the community has developed, we may have some, we have devotee match websites or we have some marriage boards. There are many temples which are now trying to offer premarital counseling before people get married.

Or there are counselors or mentors, when a couple has problems, they may try to offer some support. Sometimes you may have to go to professional support, whatever. But the idea is that this horizontal journey that we go through in life, this also needs support.

So for example, in the first generation, we expected that both, just a couple get married, they should continue throughout their life. And also you have children, you should train your children to become devotees. But as I said, it takes a village to raise a child.

So now more and more, our devotee children, what supports do we need for growing in bhakti? How can we provide that? So we may have some children's camps, some children's schools. We may have some retreats just for the children. So more and more initiatives are coming up.

So it's not that the horizontal journey will automatically be harmonious in the spiritual journey. So just as now we can have outreach for children, but that is different from outreach for devotee kids. You know, we can go to schools and teach value education or something like that, kids can introduce in bhakti.

But those children who are already introduced to bhakti through their parents, when in their teenage, they will naturally rebel against it because that's what their parents taught them. So how do we help them navigate that phase? So basically, we could say that for some people, if you see Krishna is here, those who are in renounced order, you could say in one sense, they go like this towards Krishna. But this journey is rare.

And it's not realistic in the sense that even those in the renounced order also need friends. It may not be the grahasthashram specifically, but everybody needs friends. But you could look at the principle.

The other is that we go through the world through Krishna. So for this journey that is there, we need supports. So this journey itself is a journey that is ultimately meant to take us towards Krishna.

But we need support during that journey. So now, as the community grows, as our movement grows, we will be creating more and more of these supports. And how to address the challenges along the way, that is one of the things which we, especially devotees who are like-minded, either devotees who have gone through this or devotees who have helped those who have gone through this.

Devotees who have seen the challenges in dealing with this situation, they can help each other. Does that answer the question? Thank you so much. And yes, last question.

He might have worked, even though there was a big number of children, he had a lot of speed. It's the consciousness system. Yeah.

So the vertical can seem much faster as compared to the horizontal, like going through the world to Krishna and going to Krishna by turning away from the world. Yeah. You know, there are two distinct things over here.

One is that how entangling it is. And definitely going through the world is more entangling. At the same time, there are two different things.

One is how authentic it is. You know, am I actually focusing on Krishna? When I say I move vertically upwards, am I actually focusing on Krishna or not? So it also requires a certain level of spiritual growth, possibly from previous life, or a lot of spiritual seriousness in this life to be able to sustain that journey lifelong. And quite often in the first generation of our movement, the renounced order was constantly glamorized over the householder.

Some of the householders were denigrated or even demonized at times. And that's not healthy for any movement because what happens then? People artificially try to renounce and then they can't sustain it. So in general, if you look at the Bhagavatam itself, there are many descriptions of sages and yet even the sages are householders.

So we have Shamik Rishi, whose son Shringi curses Parikshit. He has a son. That means he is in the, although he is a sage staying in the forest, he is living in a hermitage, but still he has his family.

So if you look at many of the sages, now of course we have sages like Narada, who is not, but we consider Vyasa. Vyasa has a son. Who is that? Shukadeva Swami.

So a number of the sages are also householders. So in that sense, it is, I'd say, yes, for somebody like Bhaktivinod Thakur to be able to get all his sons to become great devotees, that is remarkable. But in the same tradition that we have, we also have the example of Shri Prabhupada.

And from any material perspective, we could say that Prabhupada's grahastha ashram was not very successful. Now Prabhupada didn't have the warmest relationship with his wife and none of his children became devotees in the sense of visionaries. They were pious people.

The general piety that was there in Hinduism, in Hindu households, where you have deities and you worship the deities. So, and yet, you know, that although the grahastha ashram in many ways was not successful, that prepared Prabhupada for a far greater success thereafter. So we have in our recent tradition both examples.

Now are we to say that Bhaktivinod Thakur was better than Prabhupada? We cannot compare acharyas like that. See, the Lord has a plan and what the Lord's plan is, we don't know. Now Prabhupada earnestly tried that while he was in the grahastha ashram, he says that in 1922 when he met his spiritual master, he said that if only I had met my spiritual master a year or two earlier, if I had not been married, then I would have immediately joined his mission.

He said, now I am married, I have a child, it would be unfair to them to abandon them. So Prabhupada took that responsibility of grahastha ashram seriously. He tried to take care of them financially.

He tried to take care of them in various ways as a responsible father and husband should. But things didn't work out. So that means that we cannot evaluate the success of one's spirituality or spiritual journey through this world based on any single parameter.

I was just recently talking with one grahastha spiritual master and his son. I met his son. Very intelligent person but he is not exactly a devotee.

He appreciates bhakti. So then I asked him, I asked him and his wife also, that you know that you are a preacher and as a preacher you are inspiring everyone to become devotees. But your own son has not become a devotee.

So is this an embarrassment for you? That how do you, how can you authentically preach? So he said that's what I was, when in my early stages of my bhakti, I was myself very insecure. It's almost like our family becomes a trophy of our spirituality. Just like sometimes when a person gets married, a man gets married to a very attractive woman, it's like a trophy wife.

So like that in the devotee family, it's like the children are like trophies. Oh, my child sings so nicely, my child is initiated, my child has done that. No, our children are souls in their own right.

They are not meant to be trophies of our devotion. If that happens, well and good. But our children, they are there for us to show off to the world how nice they are.

So he said that actually because my child did not become a devotee in the traditional sense of the word, that has made me more empathic in guiding parents who face challenges with training their children to become devotees. And he says when I present it this way, the parents also appreciate it. So this is a very nuanced understanding that, you know, sometimes our experience may not be successful in the normal sense of the word, how we define spiritual success.

But even that semi-success can also prepare us for some service. So it is also that sometimes we may learn detachment. Do your duty without expectation of results.

So just as when we give classes, we may preach. Do we want that the audience become devotees? Certainly. But if the audience doesn't start practicing bhakti, I'll stop preaching.

It shouldn't be like that. Now Prabhupada was trying to share Krishna Bhakti for 40 years in India and there was practically no result. But Prabhupada didn't give that up.

Then Prabhupada came to America and they were spectacularly successful. So the point is that sometimes through our service, we may get success in the service and that can give us satisfaction, that can deepen our connection with Krishna. Sometimes through our service we may get no success at the material level.

And maybe that can help us to take shelter of Krishna. So I know one spiritual master in India. His father has become his disciple.

His father has taken diksha from him. Now I know many other spiritual masters, their parents are appreciating, favourable, but they have not become devotees. So does that mean the spiritual master whose father has become a disciple is more spiritually advanced than the spiritual master whose father has not become a devotee? No, we can't reduce devotion to such single parameters.

So what Krishna's plan is for our horizontal journey, how much success we will get in that, that we can't predict it. But just because I don't get success, so therefore I'll choose the vertical path. Now the vertical path needs to be chosen based on our attachment to Krishna, not based simply on our frustration with the horizontal path.

This is what is going to be the theme of tomorrow's class, the difference between frustration and renunciation. Am I addressing your question? So thank you very much. Thank you.