Why does the mind seem stronger than the soul?

From: Isha nagargoje:

Both mind and soul have their own individual existence and hence desires.But majority of the time our mind seems to be more powerfull than the soul.and the soul misunderstands the desires of the mind as its own and wants to enjoy.in day to day life how can we distinguish between the desires of mind and what the soul really wants?can we, over the course of time extinguish the mind?when we engage in krishna conscious activities who is the enjoyer what happens to the mind?

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
thank you by Isha Nagar Goje both mind and soul have their own individual existence and hence desires but majority of the time our mind seems to be more powerful than the soul and the soul misunderstands the desires of the mind as its own and wants to enjoy in day to day life how can we distinguish between the desires of mind and what the soul really wants can we over the course of time extinguish the mind when we engage in activities who is the enjoyer what happens to the mind answer very thoughtful question firstly it is not that both the soul and mind have desires it is only the soul which is conscious and so the soul can desire we often in our speech and even in scriptural context tend to personify the mind personify the mind means that we tend to say the mind is saying like this the mind wants to do like this so this is more for our practical application in dealing with the mind than as a philosophical or ontological reality the mind is also matter and matter by its very constitution and definition is unconscious, it is inert it is non-living so why then does the mind appear to be living the mind is a matter but it is subtler than gross matter so if you read another article over here on the site it compares the human system the embodied human system to a computer system so the body is like the hardware the mind, the subtle body is like the software and the soul is like the user now when we come to a computer the computer does not come to us the computer does not the hardware of the computer does not physically move towards us but when the computer is running various prompts start coming do you want to save your file, do you want to open this do you want to take a backup and it gives options yes, no so this is the software working now although the computer is non-living its software being of a subtler matter and because it is running based on a programming it performs some certain functions and prompts us to do certain things although it is non-living, it is functioning according to certain programs so our mind is like the software and whatever habits we develop, whatever actions we perform repeatedly they become like our default programs they become our default scripts for the mind and the mind by default tends to behave accordingly that is why it appears to us that the mind is saying something the mind wants to do something for example sometimes when we open a particular browser in the computer immediately it may ask, this is not your default browser do you want to make it your default browser so now although this is dead because that particular software is programmed in a particular way it immediately asks that question so similarly, as soon as the mind comes across a sense object it says, you are not enjoying, what do you want to enjoy right now so now of course the mind’s proposal is much more subtle, much more sinister, much more insidious and because of which we may not perceive that the mind is proposing and we are accepting the proposal the mind can only propose, it cannot impose but the mind proposes in such a persuasive and deceptive way that as you rightly said we accept the desires of the mind as our own but it’s not actually the desires of the mind it is our own desires on which we have acted in the past which have become stored as scripts as programs which were originally authored by us and now they come default again to us, to prompt us do you want to do this so it is ultimately the soul who accepts the proposal of the mind it’s just like only when we click yes then that particular browser will become our default browser similarly, when we say yes to the mind, then actually we get involved in certain activities, materialistic activities, sinful activities self-gratificatory activities so that yes may be so instinctive and so fast that we don’t even realize that we actually said yes but without our accepting and at least assenting to the proposal of the mind the mind cannot harm us now, when we start practicing Krishna Consciousness Krishna Consciousness gives us an alternative script for most materialistic people who do not know anything higher sense gratification is not just the way to enjoy life, it is the only way to enjoy life for them, they don’t know anything higher but when we start practicing Krishna Consciousness we get an alternative script and this alternative script is actually given to our intelligence not to our mind so, when we read scripture, when we associate with devotees and hear the philosophy all this is meant to be understood by our intelligence now intelligence is not just our information processing ability intelligence is primarily our discriminatory ability our ability to discriminate is this right, is this wrong is this material, is this spiritual is this beneficial, is this harmful is this short term, is this long term so the first function of intelligence is discrimination and the second function of intelligence is determination determination means the ability to execute what we have decided to do once we have by our discrimination understood that this may feel good but it is harmful in the long run and this may not feel so pleasant but it is beneficial in the long run so therefore, I should do what is beneficial and avoid what is harmful there is understanding of what is beneficial and what is harmful comes through discrimination but after we have understood what is right and what is wrong then there is determination which has to be applied and that determination is the second faculty of the intelligence so basically our intelligence essentially is like an alternative program so we as the soul have to choose which prompt we are going to accept are we going to accept the mind’s prompt or are we going to accept the intelligence prompt so intelligence as I said is not just the information processing ability, it is the discrimination ability it is the determination ability and both these discrimination and determination come from Krishna consciousness discrimination comes by swadhyaya by our study of scripture either individually or in the association of devotees that gives us discrimination that gives us a sense of what is right and what is wrong and determination comes by our sadhana by our actually chanting Hare Krishna and fixing the mind on Krishna that enhances our strength of determination and then so by discrimination we understand oh this is the mind prompting me I should not listen to the prompt of the mind ok this is the intelligence and I should act in this way and after we understand it the determination will enable us to do the right thing and avoid the wrong thing so when we become purified gradually the mind becomes weaker and the intelligence becomes stronger so the soul is on one side the soul is like the user of the computer and the software comprises both the mind and the intelligence so like two prompts come yes or no so like that the soul has two prompts two options prompting him the mind and the intelligence and initially the prompt of the mind is not a prompt it is practically a push it is a overpowering force and it is very difficult to resist but as we practice Krishna consciousness our intelligence becomes stronger and stronger and then gradually we learn to choose the option offered by the intelligence rather than the option offered by the mind and as we keep choosing the spiritual option the long term option offered by the intelligence the mind starts weakening weakening and as the mind starts weakening it gradually becomes so weak that that prompt goes away eventually certain negative prompts go away gradually it may take a long time but it happens so at this time the mind is not extinguished but the mind is subordinated extinguished means it no longer exists subordinated means that it no longer rebels against what is our higher interest so when we are enjoying what is happening it depends on what we are enjoying if we are enjoying sense gratification it is we are accepting the prompt of the mind and by identifying with the particular objects that we are trying to enjoy we get temporary pleasure it is like a person watching a movie in which the person sees a hero embracing a heroine and then the person whistles and feels some pleasure there may be a feeling of pleasure but the basic principle of that pleasure is illusion actually that person is not experiencing any pleasure at all just or sometimes in a dream a person may eat a rasgulla Prabhupada uses this example in a purport in the 7th canto Shrimad Bhagavatam in a dream a person enjoys something that person may feel some pleasure but the basic principle itself is false the basic principle underlying the pleasure is illusory however when we accept the prompt of the intelligence and then we take the beautiful darshan of the deities we relish the philosophy of Krishna consciousness we dance and sing happily in kirtans at this time it is actually not misidentification like in a dream it is actually the real happiness of the soul so the soul is coming in contact with Krishna as the Bhagavad Gita describes in 6.20 7.28 Sukhena Brahma Samsparsham Atyantam Sukham Ashnute Sukhena the happiness Brahma Samsparsham by contact with Brahma Brahma is the absolute truth, God, Krishna Sukhena Brahma Samsparsham by contact with Krishna Atyantam Sukham Ashnute one experiences the ultimate happiness so this is happiness that comes by the contact of the soul with Krishna this is not the illusory happiness like material happiness is so yes, that contact may be affected through even our senses we may be singing the Hare Krishna Mahamantra with our tongue we may be taking darshan with our eyes but as we become more and more purified, actually the contact is not only through the senses but it is also at a spiritual level where even the senses are not required so, initially we go into the rites and take darshan as we advance spiritually the beautiful vision of Krishna gets imprinted in our heart and we can see Him whenever we try to prayerfully meditate on Him and that also gives us happiness, so basically Buddhi Grahayam Ateendriyam in Bhagavad Gita, in the series of verses that describes Samadhi 6.19-23 it describes Buddhi Grahayam Ateendriyam this happiness is experienced initially through Buddhi we accept the prompt of the intelligence Grahayam but how is it experienced? subsequently, we have to follow the intelligence and then it is Ateendriyam it is beyond the senses so generally when the Bhagavad Gita talks about the Indriya, the senses, it also includes the mind which is the sixth sense so, Manah Shashtani Indriyani Prakriti Sthani Karshati that mind along with the sixth sense the soul along with the sixth sense is struggling and suffering in this world in 15.7 Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita so, Ateendriyam says it is beyond the mind also so gradually our mind becomes subordinated and when the mind becomes subordinated then it becomes joyful because it experiences that what I was what I was thinking will give me happiness did not give me as much happiness as serving Krishna and remembering Him and connecting with Him in devotion so at that time the mind also becomes agreeable to thinking of Krishna and then spiritual life becomes joyful till the mind has become subordinated spiritual life is a battle because the mind always wants to propose alternatives to Krishna substitutes to Krishna and we have to keep rejecting the substitutes of the mind and as we keep rejecting the substitutes offered by the mind and keep focusing on Krishna then gradually the mind becomes weaker and weaker and then it becomes subordinate so in the sadhaka stage how do we know whether a particular desire is coming from the mind or coming from the intelligence so basically there is Guru Sadhu Shastra there is scripture, spiritual master and saintly personalities we hear from them and they are the conveyors of the will of Krishna for us so when something that we feel we want to do which is not in agreement with Guru Sadhu Shastra then it is likely to be the prompting of the mind and if it is explicitly opposed to Guru Sadhu Shastra then it is surely a prompting of the mind and we have to recognize it as such and fight it down beat it down with our intelligence and that is if we contemplate on the philosophy and chant the holy names we can beat down the mind into silence and submission of course we may feel that I don’t get scriptural guidance for every single decision that I am going to take yes that is true but the broad contours of what is beneficial and what is harmful is given in the scriptures and based on that when we start molding our life Krishna starts guiding us the more we use our sense of discrimination well, our sense of discrimination becomes stronger our Viveka Shakti discrimination is Vivek it’s like a muscle so just as if I don’t use my muscles then they atrophy but if I use my muscles regularly to their full capacity then they strengthen similarly when we use whatever discrimination we have right now there are things which we know are undesirable should not be done and even if we feel like doing them we avoid them then by that exertion of our discrimination our discrimination becomes stronger just as by the exertion of muscles muscles become stronger and gradually our discrimination becomes stronger and stronger then we don’t have this confusion is this a desire of the mind? is this a desire of the intelligence? because we can clearly see this is Maya this is Krishna the Bhagavatam in the first canto, 7th chapter describes Vyasadeva’s vision when he went into Samadhi he saw this is Krishna and this is Maya Maya is under the control of Krishna and Maya is separate from Krishna that vision may be far away from us right now but at least whatever things we know are right we should force ourselves to do it and whatever things we know are wrong we can try to force ourselves to not do it inspire ourselves by force to not do it and whatever seems to be in a grey area we can consult some devotees and gradually we will ourselves be able to understand what is to be done, what is not to be done and there is a white zone, there is a black zone the white zone is what is clearly recommended in the scriptures by Krishna, the black zone is what is clearly forbidden by Krishna in the scriptures and the grey zone is neither directly spiritual nor directly anti-spiritual not sinful so among those things we can see what can be dovetailed in Krishna’s service for example if somebody has a particular interest if I have an interest in arts or if I have an interest in music now that is connectable with Krishna, that is dovetailable in Krishna’s service now that particular form of art or music in itself may not be spiritual like studying Bhagavad Gita or Chandigarh Krishna but that can be spiritualized so this grey area, how we can spiritualize it we need to learn by guidance and experience so we take guidance from devotees and when we try to spiritualize it we learn from our experience sometimes we go overboard and then we realize this is taking me far away from Krishna then we check ourselves and do that activity within constraints within limits within parameters and gradually we learn how to dovetail our material interests and material propensities in Krishna’s service so to summarize the mind is not alive and doesn’t have any desires but it has a default script based on our own past desires and especially our executed desires in the past so just the computer gives us a default prompt the mind gives us a default prompt towards sense gratification so we need to develop an alternative prompt for materialistic people for them it is like a situation, they open the computer there is only one option, there is no second option then it is prompting and that is the only thing they can do but as we come to Krishna Consciousness we develop an alternative prompt to tap that alternative prompt using our intelligence we need to develop our faculty of discrimination by swadhyaya and determination by sadhana and gradually as our intelligence becomes stronger and mind becomes weaker then we will be able to clearly always do the right thing and we will be able to subordinate the mind and whatever is in the grey zone between what is directly given by Krishna in the scripture and what is directly forwarded by Krishna in the scripture we can dovetail that spiritualize that by guidance and experience