Confrontation or Penetration – Two approaches to sharing Krishna consciousness

Jai Bhagwat Sevaya Bhagwateer Uttama Shloke Bhaktir Bhavati Naishthiki Krishnaya Vasudevaya Devaki Nandanayacha Maraya O Vindaya Namo Namaha Hare Krishna The camp for the senior voice facilitators will be beginning after the Srimad Bhagatam class Rewards campus will sit and hear complete lecture In fact this lecture is a part of senior camp Hare Krishna Srimad Bhagatam 11.21 Chapter and Title Explanation of the Vedic Path Verse 2 Is it written somewhere? Ok Sve Svedhikare Ya Nishtha Sve Svedhikare Ya Nishtha Sagunah Parikirtitah Parikirtitah Viparyayastu Doshasya Doshasya Ubhayoresha Nishchaya Nishchaya Sve Svedhikare Ya Nishtha Sagunah Parikirtitah Parikirtitah Viparyayastu Doshasya Viparyayastu Doshasya Ubhayoresha Nishchaya Sve Svedhikare Ya Nishtha Sagunah Parikirtitah Parikirtitah Viparyayastu Doshasya Doshasya Ubhayoresha Nishchaya Sve Svedhikare Ya Nishtha Sagunah Parikirtitah Parikirtitah Viparyayastu Doshasya Ubhayoresha Nishchaya Sve Svedhikare Ya Nishtha Sagunah Parikirtitah Parikirtitah Ubhayoresha Nishchaya Word to word translation Sve Sve Each in his own Adhikare Position Ya Saj Nishtha Steadiness Sah This Gunah Parikirtitah Viparyayah Is declared to be Viparyayah The opposite Tu Indeed Doshah Impiety Syat Is Ubhayor Of the two Esha This Nishchaya The definite Conclusion Translation and purport By the followers of Srila Prabhupada Translation Steadiness in one's own position is declared to be Actual piety Whereas deviation from one's position Is considered impiety In this way The two are definitely ascertained Purport In the previous verse Lord Krishna explained That the path of spiritual progress Begins with working without fruitive desires Advances to the stage of realised Spiritual knowledge and culminates In direct engagement in the devotional Service of the Lord Here the Lord emphasises that a conditioned soul Should not artificially disrupt The natural evolution of his Krishna consciousness By deviating From those duties Prescribed by the Lord himself In the lower stages of human life One is entangled in false identification With the gross material body And desires to execute Material fruitive activities Based on society, friendship And love When such materialistic activities are offered in sacrifice To the Supreme Lord One becomes situated in Karma Yoga By regulated sacrifice One gradually gives up The gross bodily concept of life And advances to the stage of Realisation of spiritual knowledge Whereby one understands oneself to be An eternal spirit, soul Completely different from the material body and mind Feeling relief from the pangs of materialism One becomes very attached to one's spiritual knowledge And thus one is situated In the stage of Gyan Yoga As the candidate further advances in the Spiritual path, he understands Himself to be part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, the Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. He then sees that his Conditional life as well as the spiritual knowledge Was obtained from the Personality of Godhead Who awards the results of all types Of activities, both pious and sinful By directly Engaging in the loving service of the Supreme Lord And understanding oneself to be the Lord's eternal servant One's attachment evolves into pure love of Godhead Thus one first gives up The lower stage of attachment to the material Body and then subsequently gives up Attachment to cultivation of spiritual knowledge This relieves one of Material life.

Finally One recognises the Lord himself As the resting place of One's eternal love and fully Surrenders to God in full Krishna Consciousness Rishabhanu, Sute Devi, Pranamami, Haripriya, Vancha, Kalpataru, Bhasya, Kripa, Sindhubhya, Evacha, Patitanam, Pavanebhyo, Vaishnavibhyo, Namo Namaha, Jai Shri Krishna Chaitanya, Prabhu Nithyananda, Shri Advaita Gadadhara, Shri Vasadhi Gaurabhatta Vrinda, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, Hare Krishna. I seek the blessings of the senior Vaishnavas, especially Radhe Shyam Prabhu, that I can speak something on the Srimad Bhagavatam. So I feel honoured to be here amidst all of you at the lotus feet of Shri Radha Vrindavan Chandra and today I will try to speak on a very important section from the Uddhava Gita.

So the title of this talk I have given as Confrontation or Penetration, Two Approaches to Sharing Krishna Consciousness. Two approaches for practising and sharing Krishna Consciousness. One is Confrontation and the other is Penetration.

So here what Krishna is telling is, Sve Sve Adhikare Ya Nistha, that one should practise Dharma according to one's Adhikar, according to one's qualification. The word Adhikar is not like many Sanskrit terms which are not translatable literally into English, just like Dharma is not translatable into any equivalent like religion or law or anything like that. Similarly, Adhikar is a distinctive Vedic conception which doesn't simply mean qualification.

It actually includes a lot of association, it includes one's inclination. Often we generally think of qualification as something external. You know, I can become qualified for this job.

I can get this degree, that degree. But Adhikar is often something which is internal. And to some extent the internals can be changed.

To some extent the internals may not be changeable. If somebody has a Kshatriya inclination, whether that person can give up the Kshatriya inclination and become a Brahmana, that may or may not happen. So Adhikar refers to a rough equivalent qualification.

So spirituality has to be practised, Krishna is telling over here, by one's Adhikar. So the background to this is, Krishna has told earlier to Uddhava that one should not criticise what others are following. One should not discriminate this is good and this is bad.

One should see everything equally. Then Vishwanath Chakraborty in his commentary explains that Uddhava gets the question that the whole principle of Dharma is based on understanding this is good and this is bad. So how can one not differentiate between good and bad? So then Krishna explains over here that actually what is good and what is bad depends on one's level.

And understanding one's Adhikar and practising accordingly is important for sustainable spiritual growth. And again in the Sarartha Darshini, Vishwanath Chakraborty gives a provocative example. He says that for a renunciate to approach a woman and to have intimate connections with her is a serious fault.

But for a grahastha to not approach his wife in the right season is a fault. That can be a fault. So what will be a fault for one person and what will be a fault for another person will depend on position.

So we see in the Ramayana that when Vishwamitra Muni comes to the palace at that time, Vishwamitra Muni is asked by Lord Ramchandra's father Dashrath Muni, Dashrath Maharaj, that how are you progressing on the path of conquering rebirth? But interestingly in the Mahabharata when Narada Muni comes to meet Yudhishthira Maharaj and Narada Muni is enquiring from Yudhishthira, Narada Muni does not ask Yudhishthira, how are you progressing on the path of conquering rebirth? He asks him, are you equitably balancing religion, profit and pleasure? Basically are you balancing dharma, artha and kama? So dharma, artha and kama are the three purusharthas. Purusharthas means they are also meaningful goals of life. Of course they are not the ultimate goals of life but they are also important goals of life.

And he says that don't give up either. One should not for the sake of dharma give up completely artha and kama. For the sake of artha one should not give up dharma and kama.

And similarly for the sake of kama one should not give up dharma and artha. So the Vedic programme is a programme of balance. And depending on one's level what will be appropriate will vary.

So sve sve dhikare ya nishtha, sa gunaha parikeer detaha. Gunaha, what is the gunaha, what is the quality, what is right, what is the duty, that will depend on one's adhikara. So now relating to our contemporary situation, we could at the two extremes of the spread of Krishna consciousness, we can say there are two distinct models.

One we could say is the urban model, the other is the rural model. The rural model of Krishna consciousness is we have farm communities which are completely disconnected from the rest of the world. Devotees may use no technology, no electricity and live completely traditional lives.

And that also Srila Prabhupada emphasised as an important part of the sharing of Krishna consciousness. Now along with that, Prabhupada also said that we want temples in the cities. There is a conversation when a journalist asked Prabhupada, what is the best place for having a temple? Prabhupada said the temple is like a hospital.

So what is the best place for having a hospital? The place where people are most sick. So he said materialism is most in the cities, so in the heart of the cities we should have the temples. Now obviously if the temple is in the heart of the cities, we cannot have the pastoral or rural setting which could be there in a farm community.

Now both are important for the sharing of Krishna consciousness. And now one of the features of Krishna consciousness is that there can be multiple definitions of success. There can be multiple definitions of success.

So having a vibrant devotee community centred on a temple in a city is also a very important definition of success. Having a sequestered, secluded rural community is also a success. So these are different definitions of success and individual devotees and individual devotee leaders based on their individual inspiration will work towards actualising a particular definition of success.

Now this is actually the broadness of Krishna consciousness and Srila Prabhupada would encourage everyone. Srila Prabhupada would encourage the farm community. Srila Prabhupada would encourage the distribution.

He would encourage the building of temples. He would encourage everything practically. And he said what would please me the most is if you learn to love Krishna.

So now these are two extremes. One is where we say there is the whole idea of when people want to go to farm communities and the whole idea is confrontation. Everything about modern civilisation is useless.

Nonsense. Whole cities are so polluted. Environment is so contaminated.

Technology is so degrading. And education is soul killing. And to top it all people say actually the whole civilisation is going to shut down.

And in the future the whole world will follow in our footsteps. We are living in the villages. Everybody will come and start living in the villages afterwards.

So now this sort of perception, this sort of disposition is okay for somebody who is living in the villages and who wants to disconnect oneself completely from the city environment. The urban environment. But this sort of withdrawing from urban life or rejecting everything about contemporary civilisation is not the essence of Krishna consciousness.

The essence of Krishna consciousness is attraction to Krishna. And that can be developed in both situations. Now, yes, it may be to some extent in a rural setting it may be easier to develop.

But that's not necessarily universal truth. If somebody has been brought up since childhood in an urban setting with the comforts of urban life then the physical and mental struggle in trying to adjust to a rural life may be so great that that may supersede whatever spiritual convenience is there. So therefore it has to be seen individual to individual.

And when one definition of success is imposed as the only definition of success then that is fanaticism. When one definition of success is imposed as the only definition of success only if you are leaving the modern civilisation and going to the farms only then you are actually a serious devotee. No, it's not necessarily like that.

Now, actually bhakti is transcendental. And if you look at our tradition Now we see, Bhaktivinod Thakur he was working in the British government. And he continued working in the British government.

And when he was working in the British government he was actually a very respectable officer and he was respectable because of his competence because of his dedication, because of his character. Now actually speaking, at that time the Europeans in general and the Britishers in particular had the idea that the rest of the world is very uncivilised. It's very uncivilised.

In fact, there was a British governor general who came to India and he wrote, he was so disgusted in seeing India and he says the habits and the lifestyle of these Hindus is worse than that of a British dog. So now this was their idea of the way Indians were living. And there was Rudyard Kipling, a British poet, he said actually it is the white man's burden to uplift the rest of humanity.

So he has written a poem called the White Man's Burden. It's a very famous poem. And they were thinking actually we are doing good to the rest of the world.

So now, when the Britishers had such a demeaning attitude towards Indians in general in such a society to live and to function and to earn the respect of the Britishers and through the respect that they had for him through that they developed respect for Vaishnavism in general. So that was quite a formidable challenge. But Bhaktivinoda Thakura exemplified that.

And so this is the example of penetration. So, not confrontation, but penetration. That means, penetration means we enter into the enemy camp and there we establish enclaves.

Enclaves means camps. Camps in enemy territories. Enclaves of spirituality.

So, now if we see, both these definitions are important for the sharing of Krishna Consciousness. And over a period of time, according to time, place, circumstance, which definition will be emphasised more will vary. Now if we look at the history of ISKCON itself, initially in the early years of our movement, in the first decade or so, maybe one and a half decades, ISKCON was largely a temple-based community, temple-based movement.

Not just temple-centred movement, it is temple-based movement. Temple-based movement means that actually everybody who was a devotee was living in the temple. So, that means even grahasthas at that time were living in the temple.

So, one devotee, one Prabhupada disciple was telling me, what was our mentality at that time? He said that, if you are living in the temple, you are in transcendence. If you are living next to the temple, you are in goodness. If you are living some distance away from the temple, you are in passion.

If you are living far away from the temple, you are in ignorance. So, actually the transcendental was reduced to the geographical. So, now, even till 1980, before, after Shri Prabhupada departed, almost at that time, some western sociologists, they have done some survey, and 94% of ISKCON population was living in the temple, even by 1980s.

But over a period of time, our movement's shape has changed. And now, it is largely a congregation-based movement. What to speak of 94%, now probably 97-98% of ISKCON members stay outside the temple.

So, in the early days of our movement, because the movement was entirely temple-centred, temple-based, not just temple-centred, temple-based, so, the whole idea of success in Krishna consciousness was that people drop everything and come to the temple. And when they join the temple, that is successful preaching. And if they don't join the temple, then what is the use of that? So, one of Shri Prabhupada's senior disciples, Ravindra Swaroop Prabhu, has given a nice series of talks on the history of congregational preaching in ISKCON.

And he said that, initially, when we were preaching in America and in Europe, so many Hindus would come to our temples. But then those Hindus were mostly householders who were rooted in their families. And even if we told them to join, they had no interest in joining the temple.

So, we used to think that there is no use of preaching to them. So, we did not pay any attention to them. And we paid more attention to other people who were more likely to join.

But then, as we observed year after year after year, although these devotees had no intention to join the temple, but still, every Sunday they would come. And they were regularly connected to the temple. And if they were asked, which religious group do you belong to? They would identify themselves as Hare Krishna.

But we would not identify them as Hare Krishna. So, currently there is a discussion going on at the GVC level. How do you identify an ISKCON devotee? What is the characteristic? Is it initiation? Our initiation standards are so high that there are many people who are connected with ISKCON who may not qualify for initiation.

And also, there are many initiated devotees who may not be practising the standards. So, both ways, trying to just have initiation as the criteria for somebody who is practising Krishna Consciousness, who is a devotee, that is again a very… what we are doing over there is we are translating the transcendental to the institutional. That as per the institution, we have got certain standards.

And based on that, there is initiation. Now, Prabhupada was not necessarily preaching like this. We know when George Harrison started practising Bhakti Yoga, at that time he asked Prabhupada, do I have to join? Should I shave up and join? Prabhupada said, there is no need for you to do that.

You just… Krishna has given you the ability to sing. You sing for Krishna. And that's what he did.

And in one sense, one of the Prabhupada's disciples, Yogeshwar Prabhu, he has written a very nice biography of George Harrison. Now most of his biographies, he is a very famous person, but most of his biographies focus more on his musical accomplishment. So Yogeshwar, who is Yosho Green, he has written a book called Here Comes the Sun.

That is the name of one of his songs. But there he describes his spiritual evolution also. So in that book, he describes how after Srila Prabhupada, if we consider the spreading of the holy name, the person who did the most for spreading the holy name was George Harrison.

In one sense, because his musical records were going all over the world, so through his musical records, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's professing of the holy name being sung in every town and village was fulfilled at one level. So now, this would not have been possible if Srila Prabhupada, if Srila Prabhupada told him, you know, you just leave everything and join. In fact, initially, he was so exuberant that practically in each one of his songs, he was bringing in Krishna.

And then, because now, when he is a popular music star, now that's not what people expect from a music star. So what happened is popularity rating started going, plummeting down, and people started becoming hostile. So then, once he came and met Srila Prabhupada, and he told, Prabhupada, you know, I am feeling as if for every one person I am bringing closer to Krishna, I am sending ten people away from Krishna.

So, Prabhupada was very brave. And then Prabhupada told him, no, you use your intelligence and decide how best you can present Krishna. So now, for him, that means, so initially, he did a spate of devotional songs, practically all, after he met Srila Prabhupada, all the songs that he did were devotional.

But then, afterwards, not just his popularity rating started going down, but it started becoming a sort of anti-preaching. Prabhupada told him, use your intelligence. Then he did many songs, and in between, he would intersperse his songs with devotional songs.

So, every devotee, according to one situation, one will have to decide how best to present Krishna consciousness. So, the integration is largely the approach which our movement will have to take because we are largely a congregation-based movement now. So, because we are congregation-based, so earlier I said that the whole idea, because the geographical was translated, sorry, the transcendental was mapped down as the geographical or the institutional.

That is very simplistic. But, when we start understanding how the Vedic scriptures offer a multi-level spirituality, that means, there is Karma Yoga, there is Karma Kanda, there is Karma Yoga, there is Gyan Yoga, there is Bhakti Yoga. In Bhakti Yoga also, there are multiple levels.

And different people can fit themselves at different levels according to their situations. So, now, even within Krishna consciousness, different people will situate themselves at different levels. And naturally, we would like everyone to come closer and closer to Krishna.

But, that may not happen immediately. And that is understandable. If some people want to practise at a different level, you can accommodate them also.

in the initial stages of a movement, the defining line between insiders and outsiders is very sharp. That means, if we consider, one centre is Krishna and there is a circle. So, there is a circle.

Those who are inside the circle are devotees. And those who are outside the circle, they are not just non-devotees, they are demons. You know, but, actually, as our understanding advances, then we understand that actually, yes, there is devotion, there is, there are devotees, there are non-devotees.

But then, there are also three modes of material nature. And there are different people who are in different modes. And different modes make people more or less receptive to the practise of Krishna consciousness.

So, rather than just one, one differentiating line, this is a devotee, this is a demon, we understand that there can be many concentric circles. And, with these different concentric circles, can have devotees practising at different levels. And when they practise at different levels, they all will also be contributing in their own way to practise and share Krishna consciousness.

So, the whole process of Bhakti Yoga is to utilise the world. Now, there is, the whole path of karma is based on romanticising the world. Oh, this world is so wonderful.

If you just do some adjustments, they can be scientific adjustments, or if people are pious, some religious adjustments. That means just transfer yourself from here to heaven, or do some yajna, everything will be alright. So, one attitude is to romanticise the world.

That is the path of karma. The other attitude is to demonise the world. Everything here is deadly.

Everything here is dangerous. Everything here is disgusting. Everything here is entangling.

So, that is actually the path of Jnana. The path of Bhakti is neither to romanticise the world, nor to demonise the world. It is to utilise the world.

Utilise the world. Whatever we have, we use it in Krishna's service. So, now by Krishna's arrangement, we are born at a particular time in history, and we are practising Krishna consciousness at a particular time.

So, we can't just set the clock back. We can't just expect that we can have the idyllic kind of situation which was there in the past, where everybody is a devotee, and everybody can practise devotional service nicely. Actually, that sort of idyllic situation, in one sense, was hardly ever there.

Even in the Yajna Mahapurush times, there was a predominance of Karmakanda within the Vedic tradition, and in the Lord's administration, there were Muslims ruling. So, we don't really see an idyllic time anywhere in history, except for some patches here and there, when very virtuous kings were ruling. So, utilise whatever situation is available in the practise of Krishna consciousness, in the practise of devotional service, for our practise and for our sharing.

Now, So, for this, I would like to talk about three things. So, with respect to education. Now, again with respect to education, we can have two different, one is penetration, the other is, as I said, confrontation.

So, the whole modern educational system is demoniac. And therefore, if you want your child to become a devotee, then you should have Gurukul, homeschooling, something like that. Now, yes, that is good.

But, is that really absolutely necessary for the practise of Bhakti? No. Bhakti is not dependent on that. We see, even today, that, when, whatever be the deficiencies of the contemporary education system, still, people who are relatively more educated, they have a certain level of thinking, a certain level of understanding, which makes them understand spirituality more seriously.

This does not mean that those who are less educated are unqualified. But, the education also acts as some level of screening, by which, people who are somewhat Brahminical, they are screened through that. So, yes, it is not the best form of education.

But again, there is no need to demonise the education entirely. So, you see, Srila Prabhupada recognised the value of this education, not necessarily in terms of giving transcendental knowledge, but in terms of the utility in sharing Krishna Consciousness. You know, at one level, Prabhupada may say in his books, that today's education system, the civilisation is soul-killing, and the education system is a spiritual slaughterhouse.

But then, we see, in practical dealings, Srila Prabhupada actually reserved special energy for outreach in educational institutes. Now, Prabhupada wanted devotees to go to colleges and reach out and teach. And then, in the initial days of the movement, the intellectual wing of Krishna Consciousness was the Bhaktivedanta Institute.

Bhaktivedanta Institute was not just meant to do scientific preaching. It was actually meant to do all kinds of intellectual preaching. And now, that same legacy of Bhaktivedanta Institute is being carried out by various different forums in ISKCON.

But the idea was, Prabhupada said that these devotees who were in the Bhaktivedanta Institute, they were especially well-educated. And he said, you are qualified to share Krishna Consciousness with educated people in educational institutes. So, his idea was that, there are letters where he says that anybody who is with a good degree, when he comes to ISKCON, first, that person should be recommended to the Bhaktivedanta Institute.

And there, that devotee can be trained and engaged in educational outreach in the educational institutions. And if that doesn't work out, then the devotee can be given some other service. So now, these specifics may vary.

But we see the broad principle. The principle is that the educational system can give us people who are relatively more intelligent and better receptive for understanding Krishna Consciousness in a somewhat Brahmanical way. So, we don't have to entirely demonise the educational system.

We can have a model, definitely, where, as I said, confrontation, we reject the entire educational system and try to have our own model for educating children. That is fine. Where we can do that, it is good.

But where we can't do that, and where the mainstream educational system is there, we can penetrate that, and through that also we can share Krishna Consciousness. Now, within education, the second example I would like to give is of science. Now, at one level, we can find Prabhupada quote, scientists are fools, rascals, this, this, this.

Now, what happens is, in today's age, education, communication is reduced to sound bites. Communication is reduced to sound bites. Sound bites means, just one or two sentences, which have a sensational value.

They are what are caught, and they are what are repeated. So, sometimes when Prabhupada uses this word, such statements like fools and rascals, such statements have a sensational value. And they become sound bites that are very widely repeated.

And what happens is, this was what Prabhupada's position was. But that's hardly the truth. Now, Prabhupada used words like this, when he was having room conversations with his close disciples, or when he was having morning walks with his disciples.

Now, Bhakti Sarodana Maharaj told me that, you know, he does not approve of the wide scale distribution of this life comes from life. He says, Prabhupada spoke this to us, but Prabhupada did not want us to deal with scientists like that. In 1977, when there was a conference, organised, the first life comes from life conference.

So, at that time, Prabhupada, the devotees asked Prabhupada, Prabhupada said that, you know, you should be polite and courteous with them. You point out how they are wrong, but at a human level, be polite and courteous with them. So, now of course, the life comes from life contains a lot of valuable understanding of Prabhupada's positions.

But the point is, people become very polarised when they see, when they see these sort of strong words, fools and rascals. When these sort of value judgemental words come up, then positions become polarised and discussions become paralysed. Positions become polarised.

You know, you people are like this, you people are like that. So then, and then any form of communication, it becomes paralysed thereafter. So, we have a responsibility to present Krishna Consciousness in a way that is intelligible for people.

Intelligible, yes, this makes sense. And if we take the confrontationalist position unnecessarily, then we alienate people who can come to Krishna Consciousness. So, now, again, with respect to science itself, Prabhupada, there may be some statements about Prabhupada saying that scientists are fools and rascals and things like that.

But then there are other statements also, where Prabhupada says that science should be used to glorify Krishna. In fact, Prabhupada doesn't just say that, in the Bhagavatam purports in 1.5.22, there he uses that word as a launching pad for making the point that if one is a scientist, one should use one's scientific knowledge to glorify Krishna. And Prabhupada says in one conversation that he says we are not against their spirit of advancing in knowledge.

We are not against their spirit of advancing in knowledge. We are against their godlessness. So, again, what is the point? We are not demonising science.

We are utilising science. So, now, of course, utilisation of science can happen at many levels. Somebody who is totally into science, that person can become a scientist and then bring spiritual elements into, spiritual elements, introduce spiritual paradigms within science.

Most other people, they will be having some scientific education and they can get that scientific education and utilise that in whatever profession they are in and also practise Krishna Consciousness. Some other people may just use the products of science in the form of technology and they may not have much to do with science. But the point is, if we demonise science directly, then, in this world, everybody makes sense of things by categorisation.

Now, for example, if I see a person who is very dark complexion coming in, then the mind thinks, okay, is this person an African? Because Africans have a dark complexion. Somebody with extremely fair complexion, is this person from Europe or America? Somebody has a particular physiognomy, I think, okay, is this a Chinese or Japanese person? So, what happens, when we see something unfamiliar, we generally put it in some category which is familiar to us. And that's why we try to make sense of things.

So, the unfamiliar, we make sense of it by categorisation, by putting into some familiar category. Now, what happens is, in today's mainstream society, people, who are the people who are criticising science? There are some people who are philosophers of science, who criticise science, who point out the limitations of science. But often, there are religious fanatics, who are the people who criticise science.

Now, for example, there are some Christian groups, not all, some Christian groups, who believe that the earth is 6000 years old. And they say that science is all bogus. What Bible says is true.

Actually, it is not said in the Bible that the earth is 6000 years old. That is the interpretation of one biblical scholar, some centuries ago. But anyway, there are religious fanatics, in different religions, who criticise science heavily.

And, when we are religionists and we criticise science, we get lumped into that group. So, for example, now, even more detrimental is, the Christians have the idea that if you, not all Christians again, the Christians are also a very broad group, some Christians have the idea that if you, if you surrender to Jesus, you accept Jesus as your saviour, then you are saved. You are saved means, you become free from all suffering.

Then, if you become free from all suffering, then why does suffering come? There is one Christian group, which says that, because you are free from all suffering, so, if you are getting any problems, that is simply because you don't have faith, that you have surrendered to Jesus. So, the extreme effect of this is, that, there are some people who say, Jesus is my saviour, and they say, all my problems should go away. So, for example, you know, if I have spectacles, my eyes are weak, even the spectacles should go away.

And I should be able to see normally. And there are Christians, you know, unfortunate people, some of them, you know, they can't see, and they say, if only I have faith, I'll be able to see. If I'm not able to read, it's because I don't have faith.

I should just have more faith. Now, this is horrible. So, now, in the American government, no, we may laugh, but, you know, from the… Now, think of, what is happening is, the American government has made rules now, that if any religion makes claims, which interfere with normal medical treatment and health, then, that religion can be outlawed.

They will not outlaw Christianity, but they will outlaw that particular sect of Christianity. So, what is happening is, these people, they say, actually, these people criticise science. Everything is alright.

So, those people are anti-scientific. So, when the people in the mainstream media, when they hear we calling scientists as fools and rascals, then what happens is, they put us in this category. In this category of people who think that the earth is 6000 years old, people who think that all medicine is unnecessary, people who think that, in this way, all sorts of strange ideas, which come up.

So, now, if you look at the profundity of Krishna consciousness, it is far, far greater. And, this is actually a very small point. We are not, we are not anti-scientific campaigners.

No, we are Krishna devotees, we are sharers of Krishna's message. So, this is actually a very small part of Krishna consciousness, that we are, it's not that we are demonising science also, we are pointing out the inadequacies of science, so that people can practise Krishna consciousness, so that people can recognise the need for another source of knowledge. So, actually, when we consider science, we consider science to be a competitor of spirituality.

When we consider science to be a competitor of spirituality, we actually devalue spirituality. I'll repeat this, by considering science to be a competitor of spirituality, we devalue spirituality. Why devalue spirituality? Because, spirituality is not meant to be a source of material knowledge.

Yes, some material knowledge may be there in scripture, but that is not the essential gift of the Vedic scriptures. The essential gift is spiritual knowledge. So, actually, spiritual knowledge is offering us knowledge of a much higher level.

Science is offering us knowledge of a lower level. In the Mundaka Upanishad, it talks about two kinds of Vidya, Paravidya and Paravidya. So, today there are Paravidya, that material knowledge may be got through science.

And if we look at it, as far as the Vedic scriptures are concerned, there are huge body of knowledge, and apart from the transcendental Vedic scriptures, Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita, much of the general body of Vedic knowledge is not available today. Because of Muslim rule, and because of so many things, because of the effects of Kaliyuga, the manuscripts of much of the Upashakas of the Vedas, the Aparavidya of the Vedas is not available today. So, when that is not available, when we have to live in the world, we can take Aparavidya, we can take material knowledge from other sources.

So now, when we treat science and spirituality as competitors, we force people, you have to choose science or you have to choose spirituality. To choose spirituality, you have to reject science. Then, actually that is not absolutely essential.

What is essential is, actually the godlessness which is propagated in the name of science, that has to be rejected. So, spirituality is a higher level of knowledge. And, we are not pro-science, we are not anti-science.

We are actually pro-Krishna. And, Krishna, Krishna Bhakti can be practised in a non-scientific environment, Krishna Bhakti can be practised in a scientific environment also. Now, the scientific environment may have its own limitations, its own dangers, where there can be more distractions, that's true.

But, it's not that those distractions are going to take people away from Krishna. It's interesting, according to statistics, among the world's top religious countries in the world, America ranks among the top five religious countries in the world. Interesting, isn't it? America ranks among the top five religious countries in the world.

So, now, we generally, again, have a tendency to demonise America. And if you see, America has a huge amount of the technological progress, or technological distraction, whatever you want to use, that is much more in America than it is in India. So, in the 1980s, 1990s, when technology was taking off in the form of internet and everything, so, at that time, there were a group of Christian priests, they were strongly campaigning against the internet, saying that, you know, there is so much distraction, stay away from it.

But then, now, eventually, what has happened is, they realised that we cannot, the way the society is going, we cannot just confront the technology, we penetrate the technology. So, now, Christians have built so many websites, and they say that, almost between 30-40% of the youth, who self-identify themselves as Christians, they are introduced and sustained in their Christianity through the internet. They don't physically go to the church so much.

Now, of course, just contact with the internet is not a substitute, but it can be an extension. So, what that means is, at one level, we can reject technology, but then, if we reject technology, we lose out the opportunity of reaching to all the people who could be reached through technology. What happens is, when technology, when some new form of technology comes up, then it has its glamour.

And, after some time, the glamour fades. But, even after the glamour fades, if one has become habituated to the technology, it is difficult to give up the technology. So, if one is habituated to cell phone, initially, cell phone, what we do is, we romanticise it.

Oh, anybody, anytime, I can call. We get very excited about it. Afterwards, there may be no excitement about having the cell phone, but still, giving up the cell phone is not easy.

So, we start feeling it's a necessity. But then, what happens is, even materially, when people get a technology, they may initially infatuate by it, but afterwards, even materialistic people, they start having some differentiation. Okay, this is, I should use it for this, I should not use it for this.

There are people, even among materialists, who try to, parents, they may give cell phones to their children, but they have some sort of parental controls, and something by which they regulate the technological access. So, what happens is, the infatuation with the technology doesn't remain, but the connection with it remains. It almost becomes like a needle.

So, similarly, when technology comes, then, initially, the technology itself may enamor the people, but afterwards, through that technology, people start searching for something meaningful. So, now what is happening is, that spiritual searches, searching for spirituality through the internet, is also quite common. So, if people are spiritual seekers, if they are born in the age of technology, the way they will search for spirituality is through technology.

Understanding this point? So, our, the natural Brahma Jignasa that is there in the Atma, that will never go away. But, that will be expressed according to the context. In the past, if somebody had Brahma Jignasa, somebody will go to a temple, or a church, or a mosque, or a synagogue, or somebody may go to some saints who are living in some distant places.

But, if that doesn't happen, then what happens? That may not happen in today's cultural context, but, people may go out through, people will look for it through the cultural situation that they are in, that is technology. Now, there was a famous spiritual teacher who used to live in the Himalayas, and, when he was living in the Himalayas, he was very learned, and he wrote some of his books, which became very famous in the West. And then, from Time Magazine, a journalist came to do a profile of his.

And then, asked him, you have such a wealth of wisdom, why don't you come to the world and share the wisdom with the world? So, he said, that, when a person is thirsty, the person goes to the river, the river doesn't go to the person. So, his idea is, a spiritual seeker should come to us. But, that is not the Vaishnav mood.

The Vaishnav mood is, the river will not only go to you, the river will open your mouth and pour itself. So, again, not confrontation, but penetration. So, I'll conclude with one point.

This is actually the reason why I decided to take this topic. And, what I'll speak may be a little confrontational. Although it is about penetration, it may be a little confrontational.

I answer questions on my website, and a lot of questions come up. And because there is a facility for anonymity, people can ask questions without giving their names. So many times people ask questions which they would feel hesitant to ask in person, either in public or even in private.

So, when I got this question, there are different kinds of questions. Some questions are intellectually relating, some questions require a lot of research. But, there are some questions, among all the questions I have answered, this question was quite distressing, when I got this question.

And then, I have shown this question to several senior devotees, also some Prabhupada disciples, some of our other leaders, and we discussed a lot about it. So, I'll conclude, I'll talk about this now here. So, this question was asked by Mataji.

And she said, my sister and I, from our childhood, we were very religious. And, we had decided that we will only marry a religious man. So, my sister, she was attracted to a Christian, and she married him, and she is living happily as married.

So, I decided that, I decided to marry a Hare Krishna devotee, because I found that they were very serious in their spiritual practises. But then, I feel that, throughout our life, my sister's religion, her husband's religion, teaches him to cherish his wife as a gift from God. But my husband, it seems he treats me like a temptation who has distracted him.

So, he said that, I feel that perhaps I committed a mistake, I should have also married a Christian. But, is it true that God will want any religion to want people to feel as a burden, as a distraction, throughout their lives? So, and I sent this to one senior devotee, and that devotee gave almost like 25 different quotes, from different scriptures, from Prabhupada's writings, as well as from Priya's writings. Now, for example, the Manusamhita says that, you know, in a house where the women are happy, that is where the Gods will give the blessings.

So, what is happening over here, in this particular situation, there is again a definition of success in the renounced order, and there is a definition of success in the Grihastha order. So, one cannot take the definition of success from the renounced order, and apply that in the Grihastha Rashtra. So, that can create a lot of unnecessary confusion and agitation.

So, one devotee, he was born in Iskcon, in the Gurukul, in Iskcon, lived in the Gurukul, and then he left Iskcon, and it's in a book called, It's My Karma. It's a very heart-wrenching book. Now, he has left Krishna consciousness, and he is atheist now.

So, he says that, actually, my parents, they would just go to the temple, and they would not pay any attention to me, and they would just leave me for myself, and whenever I would have any problems, they would tell me, It's your karma. It's your karma. And, he said that, actually, he said, I got less love and care from my parents, then what I could see, other students, who are non-devotees, what they got from their parents.

He said, I have nothing against Krishna, but I have nothing for Krishna also. I just don't care. So, what has happened here again? Same problem.

There is a letter of Sri Prabhupada, where, where some Mataji is writing to Prabhupada, and she is saying that, Prabhupada, she has got a small baby, and she is telling that the temple devotees are telling us that we should go for book distribution. But my child is very small, they are telling that we can keep him with some other devotee, who will act like a nanny, and like a caretaker, and you should go for book distribution. So, but my heart doesn't feel I should go, I should be with my child.

So, what should I do? So, Prabhupada writes back and says, I am surprised that you are asking such a question also. Now, your first duty is to take care of your children. These children are not ordinary children.

They are Vaikuntha children. That's how, you know, one of our devotees, Urmila Mataji, wrote a book called Vaikuntha Children. So, she said that, actually your first duty is to take care of your children, and after that, if you have time, you do other services.

So, the whole idea that success means giving up everything in the world and coming to Krishna. Yes, we do need time when we come to temple. We do need time when we do our devotional service actively.

But, that is not the definition of success which will apply overall in grahastha life. So, if one is in grahastha life, then that is not so. That is, overall, the renounced order is the order where there is confrontation.

And the grahastha ashram is more of penetration. One is entering in the world and one is living in the world. So, one has to have the right definition of success when one is practising Krishna Consciousness.

So, one devotee, Gurudas Prabhu, he was telling that, you know, there are many devotees who are getting sannyas. So, when they are getting sannyas, he went to Prabhupada. He said, Prabhupada, can I also take sannyas? So, Prabhupada said, you know, actually you are already a sannyasi.

You are already a sannyasi. He said, you know, you are preaching in one place, your wife is preaching in another place. You practically meet her once in 3-4 months.

And then, he said, this particular incident started getting circulated in the devotee community and he said, devotees started thinking that this is ideal grahastha life. That is, husband lives in one place, wife lives in another place and they never see each other. This is what Srila Prabhupada wants.

This is absurd. If people are living like this, how will the children be taken care of? How will the children live? So, yes, if some devotees have that kind of inspiration, then it has to be individually seen what has to be done. But we can't standardise that.

So, because of not recognising that there are different ashramas and they will have different definitions of success. Of course, there is one supreme definition of success that we all have to move towards Krishna. We all have to develop love for Krishna.

So, now we see Prahlad Maharaj in the 7th Canto, when he is instructing his demoniac schoolmates. That's chapter 7. There, 6 and 7 are the chapters. 6th chapter is he instructs his demoniac schoolmates and then 7th chapter is what he learned in the womb.

So there, he talks about he talks about how the he says how one gets so attached to family, to wife, to children and one gets entangled. And he speaks the same thing to Hiranyakashipu also. But then we see after that Prahlad Maharaj he himself gets married.

And then he is not only in Grahastha ashram, he is in his family for afterwards, Prahlad Maharaj is Virochan. After Virochan is Bali Maharaj. So Bali Maharaj is the grandson of Prahlad Maharaj and when his grandson is ruling as the king, so in the 8th Canto, in the 23rd 24th chapters, when we see that Vamanadeva comes and arrests Bali Maharaj, so at that time Prahlad Maharaj is still there.

So now Prahlad Maharaj told his father, give up household life. And now Prahlad Maharaj now his grandson has become a king and still Prahlad Maharaj seems to be in the kingdom only. So what does it mean? Is he not practising what he is teaching? No, that's not the point.

The point is, why renounce the world? He is saying that Hiranyakashipu's material opulence and material position was infatuating him so much that there was no scope for him to practise the Krishna consciousness over there. So for him, where was the practising of Krishna consciousness? That's why he said, give it up, go to the forest and going to the forest, what do you have to do? vanam gatoyat harimashrayata And we see Prahlad Maharaj actually tells Hiranyakashipu in the 10th chapter verses 1, 2, 3 when Lord Narasimha tells him become a king. So he says mamam pralobhayot patya sattam kameshutairvare tatsangabhito nirvinno mumukshustvam upashritaha mamam pralobhayot patya He said, my dear Lord, please do not tempt me.

He said, do not give me this kingdom. Please don't tempt me. So then Vishwanath Chaturthaku tells in Sadh Darshan, he says the Lord asks him, do you think I will tempt my devotees? Sir, do you think I will tempt my devotees? So then Prahlad Maharaj Bhaktalakshana Jigyasur He says, my dear Lord, actually you want to demonstrate to the world the characteristics of your devotee and that's why you are putting me in this situation.

And then later on Narasimha Dev gives instructions about how one should not be too attached, one should not be too averse and one should practise devotional service. So he says, as a service to me, you take up this kingdom and you rule. So Prahlad Maharaj accepts that.

So now that means even the kingdom he initially fears it's a distraction but when the Lord gives him, this is how you should, this is how I want you to serve. Then you serve accordingly. Now our philosophy if we sort of have a simplistic understanding as in inside the temple is Krishna outside the temple is Maya.

Our philosophy is actually so deep. It is a grave violence to the depth of our philosophy if we do like this. See, first of all our philosophy doesn't say that you know the female or the male is the temptation or is the distraction.

Krishna says, He says it is not that the lust is situated in a particular body, in a male body or the female body. Lust is situated in the senses, the mind and the intelligence. So if I am feeling agitated, it's not that somebody else is to be blamed.

It is I am impure and then if I am impure, I can't just simplistically become pure. Then I have to find at my level of purity or impurity. How can I best practise bhakti? That has to be done accordingly.

Again, going further, now it's not so the temptation or the distraction is not in the other person. It is actually in our own mind, senses and intelligence. And Krishna says the mind is the enemy.

You know, He says that the mind can be the enemy, the mind can be friends. 6.5 and 6. So, it's not the sense objects are our enemies. It is not even the mind that is the enemy.

It is inside the mind that is the lust, that is the enemy. And if you go deeper, what is lust? Lust is actually desire. And so it is not even lust that is the enemy.

Actually, it is the desire which gets misdirected. That is the enemy. So, it is 6.5 So, the desire is there.

So, the enemy is our own misdirected desire. And that misdirected desire has to be redirected. And according to one's level of practise, according to one's adhikar, one will do the redirection accordingly.

So, now what happens is that there can be with respect to, as I said, talked about this romanticisation and demonization. There can be romanticisation. In the materialistic society, there is romanticisation of sex.

That means that sex is the source of unlimited pleasure. And that is the purpose of life, that is the essence of life. And in fact, in the materialist society, there are atheists, there is one atheist who has written a book, religion, the source of all evil.

And his argument is, he is quite a brahma rakshasa type of person. He has the intelligence of a brahmana and the mentality of a rakshasa. So, brahma rakshasa.

So, he argues in a quite deceptively persuasive way. So, what he says is, one of the biggest evils of religion is that religion causes sexual repression. That sex, which is a natural human faculty, because of some religious dogmas, it gets repressed.

So, what they say is, that means, actually, religion doesn't talk about sexual repression, it talks about sexual regulation. And regulation is essential even in material society. In material society, people may not have any religious scruples, but even when they are not religious scruples, still now, if there is violence against women, there are rapes, there is outrage.

Why? Because it is understood that sex has to be regulated. So, what religion talks about is the regulation. And what level of regulation? That will vary according to person to person.

But the point I am making is that in material society, there is romanticisation of sex, and there is demonization of controlling sex or regulating sex. For example, people may say that there are sexologists. There are psychologists who specialise in sex.

They are called sexologists. So, they say masturbation is extremely natural. And they say, do not masturbate, it is actually repressing your desires.

So, masturbation is just like urine goes out, similarly, this also goes out. There is no problem in that. Now, actually, you know, the effluent from the body which goes out, that can form, that can give the nutritional for a whole new body.

Can urine do that? So, how can we equate the two? How can we equate the two? But the point is, there can be demonization, so there is demonization of regulating sex. But sometimes if we have a simplistic idea of Krishna consciousness, then simply the material values get reversed. That material values get reversed means there is demonization of sex and romanticisation of giving up of sex.

There is, what may happen is, that there is demonization of sex. And anybody who gives up sex, that person becomes unnecessarily excessively glamorised. So, this can have counter-reactive effects both ways.

As I said that, when I answer questions on my website, so sometimes, you know, in ISKCON, we have some problems with some of our senior leaders, they have fall-downs, and then devotees get, sometimes gurus may also have some problems. So, that creates a problem. So I answered one question about that.

And after a few days, some other devotee asked a question that sometimes in the ashram, sometimes some senior brahmacharis who have practised for a long time, they change their ashram. So then, how do we see this? So then one devotee who hears my answers regularly, he said, I gave an answer based on my experience. Then he said, Bro, you had already answered this question.

I said, man, I have not answered. He said, yes, you had answered the question about guru fall-down. I said, you know, guru falling down to immorality and a brahmachari changing ashram, it's not at all the same.

You know, one is actually, one is actually, in one sense, a moral lapse, it is sinful. But the other is just, it is within the preview of dharma, one changes one ashram and goes to another ashram. So what happens is that, in the renowned, so I was shocked that this devotee, this devotee is practising Krishna consciousness for 8-10 years, but I had to explain to him the difference between the two.

So what happens is that with respect to renounced order, the only thing that is valued is the renunciation of sex. And if that renunciation of sex is no longer there, then that person is considered valueless. But it's not like that.

And if a devotee has practised Krishna consciousness for many years, the essence of a devotee is neither, has nothing to do with sex. Sex is a bodily drive which has to be regulated. But the essence of bhakti is one's connection with Krishna, one's dedication to Krishna, one's knowledge about Krishna, one's desire to share about Krishna.

And that one can do in any ashram. So, if one has too sex-centric a view, instead of Krishna-centric a view, then somebody, then what happens? Just because somebody is saffron and then becomes white, whether that was a fall down or that was just a graceful changing of ashram, everything is just painted in one black brush, which is undesirable. Now bhakti in one sense is transcendental and there of course have to be material ways in which it is expressed.

But this same thing, this same attitude when everything is too sex-centred, then what happens? In grahastha life also, one starts thinking of, as this question has come up, one starts thinking of one's wife as a temptation, as a distraction. Now that is a wrong attitude. You know, when Sita was kidnapped by Ravana, Lord Ram did not think, I am free from temptation now.

That would have been ridiculous. He understood that it is my duty to protect my wife. You see the same principle in the Mahabharata also.

When Draupadi is dishonoured, the Pandavas fight to protect her honour. So one cannot bring the definition of success from one situation into another situation. So yes, renunciation has to be developed, material attachments have to be given up, but they have to be done progressively according to one's situation in one's ashram.

And one ultimately has to practise bhakti according to one's situation. So Srila Prabhupada was once in London and while in London, London at that time was the European headquarters of ISKCON. So devotees from France, from Germany, from various countries, they had come to meet Srila Prabhupada.

And all of them were reporting what they had done, how the preaching was going on in their specific centre. So there was one devotee, Ishan Prabhu, so he said that everybody is telling what the service reports. So then he said, everybody has something to do for Prabhupada, I don't have anything to do for Prabhupada.

So then he went to Srila Prabhupada after the meetings got over and he said, Prabhupada, can you give me something to do for you? So Prabhupada looked at him and said, what would you like to do for Krishna? So he said, what I would like to do? So he said, I had been taught that what I like that is Sanskritification. May be Prabhupada is testing me. He said, Prabhupada, whatever you tell me, I will do.

Prabhupada said, no, no, what would you like to do for Krishna? So he said, I never thought like this. No Prabhupada, whatever you tell me, I will do. So Prabhupada said, Prabhupada, understand our philosophy properly.

He says, our philosophy is what we like to do, we do it for Krishna. What we like to do, we do it for Krishna. That is the essence of Varna Ashram.

Now Brahmana likes to study and teach. So that's what a Brahmana does for Krishna. Kshatriya likes to manage and rule.

That's what Kshatriya does for Krishna. So then he started thinking. Prabhupada, I will have to think about it.

And then, a couple of days later, he came. Prabhupada, since my childhood, I had a great fascination for doing pottery and things like that. I was thinking that, we get our Mrudangas from India and it's claimed Mrudangas, they often break and then to get them again from Mayapur is quite difficult.

So I was thinking of using plaster of Paris and other materials to make Mrudangas which will not break. So you can make them very easily over here itself. So Prabhupada, broad smile on his face, he says, yes.

He says, your western god brothers are very passionate. So you make Mrudangas so strong that even if they throw them down, it will not break. So, then he said, and that's the time since this sort of Mrudangas started coming and that he got a lifelong service through that.

So what it means is, it doesn't mean that what we like, we do for Krishna, doesn't mean that we become whimsical or independent or arbitrary. But the point is, as our movement is going to spread, it is going to be increasingly difficult for senior devotees to observe each devotee and give service according to that devotee's inclination. So yes, we will all get engagement, but if we have some individual initiative, if we have some individual inspiration, taking that initiative and serving Krishna accordingly, we will be able to do a lot for Krishna by that.

And that's what Krishna says, By your work, worship him. So, our work may be as a brahmachari, it may be as a ghastha, it may be a farm community, it may be in a city community, but whatever our work is, we can worship Krishna through that. And, one can attain perfection by that.

So, I'll summarise. I started by talking about how the Vedic scriptures prescribe dharma according to adhikar. And how different adhikar, different people, depending on their adhikar, can have different kinds of dharma.

Not transcendental dharma of bhakti, but material dharma, engaging according to one's nature. And then we discussed about how there can be two broad approaches to sharing Krishna consciousness. Confrontation and Penetration.

So, the farm communities are for confrontation, the urban devotees communities are more or less penetration. And Prabhupada encouraged both. Both the definitions of success are valid and valuable.

Making one definition of success as the only definition is fanatical. And then we discussed this basic theme with various points about how if we make our own definition the only definition, then we may demonise everything else. And we may romanticise our own definition of success.

But, our philosophy is neither romanticisation nor demonization, it is utilisation. So, we discussed how we can utilise science, how we can utilise modern education, can utilise science, can use the products of science, technology. And then, we discussed especially about the particular ashram that we are in.

We don't want to demonise or romanticise the ashram. But, within that ashram, we utilise whatever are the facilities for practising Krishna consciousness. And we concluded with the pastime of Shri Prabhupada, whatever you like to do, you do it for Krishna.

Thank you very much. Any comments and corrections? Okay, yes. Mic is there.

Hare Krishna. Thank you, Puruji, for this much needed class. This question is a result of my discussions with many of the boys who are actually at the crossroads of deciding whether to continue in kind of Gaurang Sabha versus going to go to Nithyanand Sabha.

And we all know the thought process which everybody typically goes through that. So now, I am going to give some comments and I want to just get my understanding correct and your perspective on this. Now, what happens is typically, everybody has a tendency to rank various options.

This is first prize, this is second prize. Also, in our lectures itself, like in your class also, the first thing which you said in the beginning was that there are multiple definitions of success. So, this is also best, this is also best.

Versus, you yourself also, little down the line in your lecture, you talked about multi-level spirituality and doing things according to our level of consciousness wherein you talked about karma, you know, you began with karma, you went like that. Now, when dealing with such boys, as long as we emphasise that both are perfect, both are best, then they feel a lot of solace. They feel very happy and they feel confident about taking the decision which is best for them.

But as soon as they hear the other perspective wherein it is like a ranking, first prize, second prize, or the fact that okay, it is according to our level of consciousness because it is a very, it becomes very tough for all of us to accept that, oh, my level of consciousness is not very high or my intensity of desire to practise Krishna consciousness is not very high and therefore I have to choose this option versus that option. So, that becomes very difficult for people to accept or digest because of which they sometimes either become fanatic because they don't want to accept that, you know, it is a second prize and the problem is not in accepting the second prize but the problem is in seeing that as a second prize, you know. So, either they become fanatic or they become confused and distressed.

So, my, so coming to my question, my question is, on one hand we also say that both are the correct definitions of success, both are perfect, both are best and as long as we say this, there is no problem. This promotes a broad understanding, a mature understanding in the community. But as soon as we say that, oh, there is a, qualitatively speaking, there is also a gradation and, you know, as per the level of consciousness, you know, one has to practise according to that.

Now, that implicitly implies, I mean, that also implies there is an understatement that, you know, my dear friend, you know, you are not fit for that and therefore you should do this. Now, as long as people hear that, they find it very difficult to come to terms with settling down with other options. So, can you, you know, like… Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, the question in a sense is that, you know, are there multiple definitions of success which are equivalent or are there multi-level definitions which are progressive? So, it's like grahastha and grahastha ashram and brahmacharya ashram, are they equivalent paths for spiritual advancement or are they like one is higher and one is lower? Now, I did a… before I come to the specific question of this, you know, there are… I did a broad study of celibacy and renunciation in the world traditions. So, in general, if you see dharmic religions, so, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, they have a renounced order. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, they generally don't have a renounced order.

Although the Catholics have monks, but the protestants don't have. So, now, these two broad religions, religions which have a separate devoted renounced order and religions which don't have a renounced order. So, both of them have their advantages and disadvantages.

So, in general, if the religions don't have a renounced order, then overall, the level of spirituality present in that religion goes down. Because there is the focused connection with God is not maintained so much. So, because of that, they may practise, but the intensity of the practises is often not much.

But the advantage in such religions is that they are overall very community friendly. That means everybody feels that we are in one group and we are all practising the path that God has given to us. Whereas, in those religions where there is a renounced order, the level of intensity of practise is more.

But, the community itself gets split into two. The renounced and the householder. And a lot of energy goes in that.

In that internecine conflict. Internecine means the conflict that is injurious to both. So, now, this sort of conflict is very unnecessary in one sense.

If you look at from the point of your broad sharing of Krishna Consciousness, even if you look at the number of people who are devotees itself are so insignificant as compared to the number of people who are with the brahmacharis or grahasthas. So, we have so much to do in sharing Krishna Consciousness with the world that spending too much of our time and energy having conflicts over this is a tragic waste of energy. Along with that also, secondly, if we look at our own life, we have been souls who have been in this material existence for many many lifetimes and as compared to the many lifetimes that we have been, this life with whatever 40, 60, 70 years, whatever we have, that is really not very significant.

So, what will matter at the end of our life is the quality of our devotion. It is not the form of the ashram that we are in. Even from the point of view of how long we have been in material existence.

So, this sapping of energy is very undesirable. Now, what is the way to avoid this? So, in the Vedic tradition, there was Varna Ashram and the normal process was brahmachari, grahastha, vanaprastha and sanyas. So, one enters, takes brahmachari training and after that one goes to the grahastha ashram.

And even within Hinduism, there are some traditions which discourage going from brahmachari to sanyas or continue as brahmachari throughout. Even Vaishnav traditions, you know Vallabhacharya and Pushyam they don't recommend renunciation at all. It is only when Vithaldev, Vithaldev was the son of Vallabhacharya, he actually met the Goswamis.

Then he felt actually genuine renunciation is possible even now. Vallabhacharya was of the opinion that renunciation is an impractical option. So, there are books that he has written a whole composition about how if you want to be bhakta, be a married bhakta only.

Now, in our tradition, because Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was a renunciate, Goswamis were renunciates, so, we have a strong strand of renunciation. But then, the six Goswamis are called Goswamis, but then also Bhaktivinoda Thakura is also called a Goswami. The seventh Goswami.

And is it that Bhaktivinoda Thakura was in any way lesser than the six Goswamis? He is the pioneer in bringing Krishna consciousness into the modern times. There is a talk of Prabhupada, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Prabhupada says that actually Bhaktivinoda Thakura is the founder of the modern day Krishna consciousness movement. And he says, I am only the messenger.

So, I would say that this broad understanding that as compared to the broad scope of Krishna consciousness, in terms of global outreach and in terms of our own individual existence, material existence, this is not a very big choice for which a huge amount of energy has to be dissipated. Now, yes, in general, from the cultural perspective, the renounced order is given greater respect than the householder order. And in that sense, in terms of cultural standing, the renounced order is considered higher than the householder order.

But, in terms of spirituality, is it necessarily higher? So, we have Chaitanya Mahaprabhu telling that one who knows Krishna Tattva is the highest. And then we also have that verse where Chaitanya Mahaprabhu rejects the identification with all the four ashramas and the four varnas. So, we have to see which material situation is the best for my practise of Krishna consciousness.

That means, now, from an objective or external perspective, we can say that for the practise of Krishna consciousness, in the renounced order, there are more facilities. One has more time, one is in a more devotional environment, one is surrounded by devotees, one doesn't have so many distractions or entanglements. That is true.

But, along with that, it's also important to recognise that, you know, we all have our nature. And that nature cannot be rejected. So, Nigraha So, what will repression accomplish? Now, Krishna is not saying this in a judgemental low sense, because you are low grade, so what can repression accomplish? He is making it as an objective fact of life, that what can repression accomplish? So, in terms of cultural standing, yes, the renounced order is higher.

In terms of spiritual potential, I won't say it's higher. In terms of spiritual facility, yes, it's higher. But then, the spiritual advancement or the spiritual potential of a particular ashram doesn't just depend on the spiritual facilities that are available.

It also depends on the individual mentality. Different people have different levels of emotional and physical needs. And we can't just dismiss those emotional and physical needs as simply attachments.

Because, yes, if that is my nature, I have to use that nature in Krishna's service. And the focus rather than thinking of what is the best, the focus should be what is the best for me. What is the best for me? If we start thinking of what is the best, then it may very well seem that the renounced order seems to be the best.

But then, just because it is the best in terms of external facilities available, that does not necessarily mean that it is the best for me. So, I have to find out what is the best way I can practise Krishna Consciousness. And if I find that I can practise Krishna Consciousness best in the grahastha ashram, then there is nothing to be regretful about in that.

There is nothing to be to feel sorry about. Actually, our mental expectations also determine our actions. So, if I enter grahastha ashram with a very negative attitude, then that negativity will reflect in my actions.

And once that negativity reflects in my actions, if I expect, oh, it will be all filled with problems, problems, problems, then, yes, there will be problems, but my problem-haunted attitude will also create further problems. Isn't it? So, Radhanath Maharaj gave a, I mean, recently several classes he has been talking about how he heard a lecture of Srila Prabhupada where Prabhupada says that, you know, the devotee of the couple is getting married, and he says that the purpose of marriage is to be happy. So, I was talking with Shyamananda Prabhu, he was telling that, Maharaj was telling them privately afterwards, he says, you know, in the early days of Krishna Consciousness, our idea was that, you know, brahmachari life, happy, sanyasi life, happy, grahastha life, miserable.

And that is the arrangement by which from grahastha life you can come to brahmachari or sanyasi life. So, he said, so it was like a complete re-education. Maharaj said, thirty years of my Krishna Consciousness, I have read so many of Prabhupada's books, I have heard so many classes, I never heard that the purpose of grahastha life is to be happy.

So, now, of course, we are not talking about permanent happiness over there, but while one is there in the grahastha ashram, one is expected to live in such a way that one gains happiness. And that happiness becomes a launching pad for practising spiritual life. So, rather than sort of making oneself either feel inferior if one becomes a grahastha or feel superior because one becomes a brahmachari, one should focus not by thinking what is the best, but what is the best for me.

And with that attitude, we practise Krishna Consciousness, we can make steady advancement. And overall, as our movement will progress, overall, one of the signs of, I would say, the success of our movement is that if some brahmachari decides to change their ashram and become grahasthas, if they can come and live in the same community without everyone becoming judgemental about them, then that will indicate that actually the community is recognising devotion as more important than renunciation or the absence of renunciation. Same way, you know, some devotee initially feels that I want to be a brahmachari, in the Gaurang Sabha, but then there should not be any judgement around that.

Because that's an individual decision and we have to respect every devotee's capacity to practise not in terms of one being lower and one being higher, but the capacity in terms of one's nature and disposition. So, is it multi-level or is it multiple? Well, from the cultural point of view, it is multi-level. One is higher, one is lower.

But it is not that from the point of view of traditional progression of Varanashram, there is brahmachari, grahastha, vanaprastha and sannyas. But is it that if somebody doesn't take vanaprastha or sannyas, can that person not go back to Godhead? No. Wherever a person is, if a person is practising Krishna Consciousness seriously and remembering Krishna, that person can go back to Godhead.

So, in that sense, from the cultural point of view, it's multi-level. But from the transcendental perspective, it is multiple. And we should focus, we offer deference, we offer respect to the cultural standards, according to whatever is the cultural etiquette.

But we focus, for our own choice, on the transcendental aspect and see how best we can practise. Okay? Ruchi, would you like to add something? It's an important point. Hare Krishna.

Thank you very much. Very brilliant answer by from various angles. From a Vedic perspective, the renounced order is considered higher.

And the householders are supposed to look up to the renounced order for inspiration. Just like Nanda Maharaj is telling Garga Rishi, Mahat Pichalanam Pumsam, Krihinam Dhenachetasam, like that he is telling. We are householders, I am a Vaishya, we are busy doing trading, farming, counting money and all that.

And Garga Rishi, you are a sadhu and we derive inspiration from you, like that he says. So, in the Vedic life, the sanyasi is considered the head of all the other seven orders. That is from a traditional Vedic perspective.

From a Vaishnava perspective, because Vaishnava Siddhanta is transcendental and beyond the three gunas, whichever devotee practises devotion service with the intensity, he is accepted as a Mahatma. And even a sanyasi can sit and hear lectures and take inspiration. Just like you find Lakshetra Mahaprabhu is asking questions to Ramanandaraya.

And Ramanandaraya is giving answers and Mahaprabhu is very patiently listening to him, hours and hours, days together also. And Lakshetra Mahaprabhu is telling Sarvabhattacharya, if a Grihastha worships the deity of the Lord at home with great love and devotion, offering the raitis, outfits and ornaments and bhoga very nicely with great faith, love and devotion, then even sanyasis can fall at his feet and take blessings. So Mahaprabhu said, I am going for South India preaching.

I beg for your blessings. Like that he told Bhattacharya. So in this way, according to Vaishnava Siddhanta, whether one is a Brahmachari or Grihastha or Sanyasi, it's immaterial.

People have very superficial understanding of what is superior, what is inferior. Just like people think, if you are a white devotee, you are Kanisha Adhikari. If you are saffron devotee, you are Madhyam.

And if you are holding a danda, you are Uttam. People think like that. Now, can all the people holding danda be considered Uttam Adhikaris? Or can all devotees wearing saffron be considered Madhyam Adhikaris? So, because of our very superficial understanding of religious principles, security complex and inferiority complex and all these things come.

I have some practical solutions for Vyasacharya Prabhu's questions. One is the people in the world generally tend to respect any order which has control. But if they see that the Grihasthas, for example, are taking lead in the temple administration and services.

For instance, we have Shri Shyamaru Prabhu taking festival management. And he has 25-30 young boys, I mean, those who are going to be Grihastha boys, all are very happy, well and healthy, both physically and spiritually. So, they feel that here is a leader who has a very vital role to play in the temple and whenever there is a festival, he engages us.

So, they feel more happier than Brahmacharis also. So, the Grihasthas, Matajis also, Prabhujis also should have some very vital roles to play in the temple administration. And the Brahmacharis should be more in a vision-giving role, give some blueprint, this is the way things should be done.

And then the Grihasthas should be people who are actors. The Brahmacharis should be vision providers, Brahmacharis, Sanyasis, they just give an outline and then the Grihasthas, if they are given to administrate and act, they will be satisfied and the people who are with them will see their leader and themselves as success. So, our community is a big community, this kind of arrangement should be made.

Whereas, Brahmacharis are seen to be administrators and actors themselves and the Grihasthas are sidelined and they don't feel opportunity to take lead in anything. So, that is considered inferior service. This is one thing.

Secondly, such a beautiful big temple like this, Radha Vrindavan Chandra temple, the purpose of this temple is all the Grihasthas in the community come regularly to temple and identify with the temple as their own home. Temple is the home. Because this is coming back home, they come back to Godhead.

So, their home may be near, but if they feel at home here, then the people who are connected to them will also come here. And the more the people identify with the temple, the more they will become spiritualised and not feel far away from the temple. And the Brahmacharis are running here, they are busy preaching.

Brahmacharis' main activity is preaching, expanding the movement, reaching out to the suffering souls all over. So, they are doing like this, and the Grihasthas feel this is our home. So, when a sense of belonging comes to the temple, and everyone is seen here, another beauty of this, I am saying this based on my native place, there was a temple like this, small temple, but the Grihasthas would come together and they felt a very strong sense of belonging to the temple, taking responsibility, taking services, putting up festivals.

In fact, they will call Brahmacharis, Babaji, can you come and sing, can you do this, they will alert services. Brahmacharis are also allowed to participate, it's like that. Actually, this is not my new point, this point I have been telling even 4-5 years ago.

when the Engar Grihastha men, or the GS men turning to NS men, when they see that our leader also is big leader, he is also having many things to do in this project, and he is also respected, and they feel, they also feel respected. Currently what happens, many big Brahmacharis, many years they are staying and all the boys are under them, and one GS boy is turning to NS boy, he feels now I am like outcast. These are all my friends, they are all in the ashram, whole morning programme they are chanting, dancing, when I even go to the temple, I am the only Grihastha in the temple, and everybody else is saffron and stout devotee, everybody is chanting, dancing.

Grihasthas are very minority, actually Grihasthas become the majority in morning programme, and Brahmacharis have to go behind. So, when Grihasthas prominently take part in the community, then boys who are coming under them will be very joyful. Thank you.