​QA on Bhagavad-gita and bhakti philosophy

​Program at ISKCON, Toronto, Canada

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna. So I thank all of you for coming here today evening. And I thank all the organisers also for inviting me here for this Tuesday Sangha.
And I’ll start with a few words about the Bhagavad Gita, which you’ve been reading. And then we can open for questions, if any of you have any questions. Otherwise, we also have a reservoir of questions which you can refer to.
The Bhagavad Gita, there are many books of wisdom written throughout history. Few of them have as intriguing a setting as does the Bhagavad Gita. So, imagine there is a World Cup cricket match.
The final is about to start. And then, the cricket match, the toss has been done. The fielding side has assembled for fielding.
The batsman is taking guard. The ball is about to start, has run up to come and bowl. And at that time, the batsman calls a non-striker.
And the two of them start talking. And now, there are some players who try to use delaying tactics. If they know that they are not in good touch and their opponents are in good touch, they might try to delay to throw the opponent off guard or to disturb the flow of the opponent.
But if we know that this particular batsman and the non-striker, they are not that kind of unsportsmanly players. They are actually honest, diligent, good players. And if they are just before a match where thousands of people are assembled to watch the match, if they are having some talk, then it must be something very important.
Everyone knows how important the match is and everybody is watching. And if they are stopping that and delaying the progress of the match to talk something, then what they must be talking must be very important. So the Bhagavad Gita’s setting is something similar.
The first chapter of the Gita describes how the two armies are assembled for the sake of fighting a war. In fact, the two armies are assembled in those times when a war would begin. The idea was not just to somehow defeat the enemy.
Like now we have terrorists, the terrorists they attack. The difference in the time, terrorists are completely unprincipled in their fighting. Like the Kurukshetra war that was fought.
In the past, wars were fought as honourable affairs. So there were wars in that time where an equipped warrior would fight with another equipped warrior who would be equal and who would be alert. That means if a warrior is on a chariot, a charioteer cannot attack a foot soldier.
A charioteer should fight with a charioteer. A charioteer should fight with, not charioteer, a chariot warrior should fight with a chariot warrior. And not just a chariot warrior, but the chariot warrior should also be equipped.
And the chariot warrior should be alert. Whereas if we see, terrorism is exactly the opposite. There are armed people who are attacking civilians who are neither trained nor equipped nor alert.
So this is actually the complete antithesis of honourable confrontation. So the idea of those who are in fighting a war was not just I have to win the war somehow or the other. War was more like a, war was fought in an honourable spirit.
And that’s why when these two armies were assembled, the conches were blown. The blowing of the conches indicated now the war is to begin. Both of everybody will be alert, so it is invoking the war.
Just like say, recently we had the Olympics. Before the Olympics, there is the Olympics inauguration ceremony. After that it gets everyone into the mood.
Now we have to compete. So like that, blowing of the conches, all the warriors would have their conches and they would blow their conches. That indicates the war is about to begin.
And at that moment, between the two armies, place my chariot. The warrior Arjuna told his charioteer Krishna. And he told like this, place my chariot between the two armies.
And why did we say I won’t place? So like that, I can see, I can see who is it that is assembled. Now actually this whole question is very strange. Because, it is not that, he did not know who was there on the other side.
It’s not that, it’s like if a match is going on, sometimes there are 14 players in the cricket team. And then who is the final playing 11? We may want to know before the match. But it was not like that in this case.
So the 11, they may want to see who are the 11 players who are going to play actually. Now in this case, it was not like that. The warriors, which party had formed alliances with whom, that was all fixed.
And he knew who was going to be the opposite side. So he still wanted to see who is it that is fighting. And he saw, oh these are my relatives, these are my friends.
And they were going to fight to death, he got overwhelmed. And he got overwhelmed, he said I can’t fight. I am fighting.
Then Krishna spoke the Bhagavad Gita. So the ethics of the particular fight, that is something which we can discuss separately. But the principle here is, Arjuna, he has raised his bow ready to fight.
But by the end of the first chapter of the Gita, he puts aside his bow, saying I can’t fight. In 1.46 it is said that he puts aside his bow, rejected, I don’t want to fight. Then the whole discussion of the Bhagavad Gita begins.
And as the discussion progresses, progresses, progresses, at the end of the Bhagavad Gita, what has happened? Arjuna has picked up his bow. Yatra Yogeshwara Krishna Yatra Partho Dhanur Dharah Tatra Shri Ujjayo Bhutir Dhruvani Tirumati Mamah Arjuna is Dhanur Dharah, he has picked up his bow and he is ready to fight. The Bhagavad Gita is a historical work.
But along with that, there is also, also a symbolism associated with it. The symbolism is Arjuna’s bow, that represents his determination. And by looking at things with his eyes, he loses his determination.
But on hearing about the reality of things from Krishna, his determination is installed. And he again becomes ready to fight. We may not have to fight physical wars with anyone, but life involves fighting battles.
We have to fight against our circumstances, we have to fight against our minds, we have to fight with competition. And if we just look at the world with our naked eyes, sometimes the reality of this world can seem very discouraging. We feel that I am all alone in this big bad world.
How can I go on? We may feel alone, we may feel desolate, we may feel vulnerable, we may feel depressed. We can get all kinds of mental complexes because of perceiving the world. But when we see the reality of things, for that we need to see not just with our eyes, we need to see with our intelligence.
In fact, whatever we see in life, we actually understand not just by the information that is going in through our eyes, but we understand by the knowledge that we have, which enables us to make sense of the information going in through the eyes. So for example, if somebody sees a graph going down, a stock market graph going down, somebody who doesn’t know about economy, what’s this line going down? For somebody who knows about it, that person may be concerned, oh, markets are crashing, I should just invest my money. So we need intelligence to process things, to process the information that is coming in through our eyes.
Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita gives Arjuna that kind of intelligence. By that intelligence, he is able to see the true nature of things. The true nature of things is that when we look at the world with our own naked eyes, we see it in terms of two options.
Either things are in control or things are out of control. If things are in control, I feel confident. If things are out of control, I feel worried.
But the Bhagavad Gita helps us to see a higher reality that things are working according to a higher plan and that plan is at work even when our plan is not working. The Bhagavad Gita tells us, If you become conscious of me, you will pass over all obstacles by my grace. So when we understand that things are not in my control, that does not mean that things are out of control.
Things are under the control of some higher power, the ultimate source. The Bhagavad Gita offers us a human-divine partnership. That means, if we look at our own life, there are many things which we do.
When I say, OK, you just practise your spirituality, I don’t want to put food on your table. You have to work to get food. So the Bhagavad Gita tells us to work.
But the Bhagavad Gita also makes us aware that even when there is food on the table, who is it that digests the food? I eat the food, but after that, who digests it? The only time we think about our digestion is when it doesn’t work. Normally we eat and we enjoy, everything is fine. But actually, nowadays with science and technology advancing, many dysfunctional bodily parts, we try to have a replacement for it.
So if my fingers don’t work, I can get artificial fingers. If my kidney is not working properly, I can have dialysis. So now many people have digestive problems.
So a project was attempted that can we have an artificial digestive system? Small intestine, large intestine, can we have an artificial stomach inserted into the whole body so that the whole digestive process can be done in case people are having digestive problems. They found that actually the digestive process is so complicated that if you consider work in scientific terms, work is force into displacement. Now how much is the force which I have applied, how far I have applied.
They found that the amount of energy or amount of work that is done in digesting one handful of food, it goes into my stomach, from there all the peristalsis movement happens, and then it keeps moving down and it is churned and digested. The amount of work that is required for digesting our food, that work is actually far more than the work that we do throughout the day. So we are not doing the digestion.
Who is doing the digestion? That is actually happening without our knowledge, without our awareness. So that same force which digests the food within us, that same force which keeps our heart beating, that same force which keeps our blood circulating, that same force is in control of the world. It is in control of our lives also.
So when we become aware of that, then we can focus on that which is in our control and not worry about that which is not in our control. And that way we can become intense. So the human-divine partnership is based on understanding that, it is not based on escapism thinking that I will not do anything, God will do everything.
That is not the Gita’s mode. As I said, Arjuna picks up the bow and starts fighting. So similarly, the Gita invites us to become responsive, to become dynamic, to become energetic in performing our duties.
But at the same time, it also reminds us that there is a higher order of things. And what we need to do is harmonise with that higher order. And when we harmonise with that higher order in a mood of loving service, then we get deep fulfilment in our heart.
Because we become internally connected with the supreme reality. So Gita’s message is that if we play the part of the part, we are a part of the whole, and when we play the part of the part, the whole will fill the whole in our heart. If we play the part of the part, the whole, that is the absolute truth, will fill the whole in our heart.
The emptiness that we feel in our life, no matter how much we achieve, that emptiness will go away and we will experience deep inner fulfilment. And that inner fulfilment can become the stable foundation by which we can make achievements in our outer life. And that is what the Bhagavata concludes with when Arjuna leads his army to a great victory.
So by not just seeing the world with our eyes, because when we see the world with our eyes, we say, oh things are in control, yes, I am powerful. Things are not in control, I am powerless. We can see beyond that.
I am a part of the whole and the whole is always in control of things. Let me play my part. And that way we can become peaceful, we can become focused, and then we can become successful in our lives.
That is the essential message of the Bhagavad Gita. So I’ll summarise, then we can have a few questions. Talked about how the Gita has a very intriguing setting, like a World Cup final, the batsman and the non-striker just start talking and talking and talking.
If they are good players, not trying to evade, they will know they must be talking about something very important. So like that, Arjuna and Krishna, just after the conches are blown, the war is about to start, and they are all honourable warriors. They are not like terrorists who want to attack people behind their back, or use some dishonourable techniques.
The war was fought on principled grounds. At that time suddenly they decide to start, Arjuna starts talking and Krishna starts responding. It goes on and on and on.
So what is it so important that they stop the war for it? That is to get the right vision of reality. And Arjuna sees with the eyes and he gets bewildered. But when he hears with the ears, then he becomes enlightened.
And initially he is discouraged, he puts aside his bow, but at the end of the Gita he lifts his bow and is ready to fight. So his bow represents our determination. And we may lose heart by looking at how things are going wrong, or what all problems are there in our life or in the world.
But when we understand the spiritual wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita, we understand that we can go beyond the dialectic of things are in control, which makes me feel powerful, or things are out of control, which makes me feel powerless. And we can say that even if things are not in my control, they are still in control. The same higher power that actually digests my food, that runs the cosmos, that higher power is also in control of my life.
If I become, if I play the part of the part, in this cosmic order of things, in the whole, it will fill the whole with it. Thank you very much. Are there any questions? I have to ask this question.
I asked you that Arjuna, when he, Ashutosh asked you something, at that time there was a scene, a hunting scene was going on. So it was kind of like it confused me a bit. So as a devotee, being Arjuna, being a devotee and a Kshatriya, is hunting still permitted for him? And if hunting is permitted for Kshatriyas and devotees, like devotees of Srilanka, then why do they do this hunting? Why do they? Why would they hunt? So why would Kshatriyas hunt? Especially for a devotee like Arjuna.
The Kshatriya is a devotee like Arjuna. See, the Kshatriya, Kshatriya code of morality is different from the Brahmana code of morality. And Srila Prabhupada, when he started the Krishna conscious movement, he said, I have come to make Brahmanas, find Brahmanas basically.
So Kshatriyas are expected to be martial guardians of society. And the guardians means to guard not just from enemies, human enemies, but also from other enemies. So that means for them, when they fight wars, at that time they are fighting against human enemies.
But then for them, hunting is a part of their process of training. And it’s not that they can kill indiscriminately. In the forest, when they are living in a particular area, when they are in exile for 12-13 years, so at that time in that area, after they stay in that area for some time, Vyasadev comes over there and Vyasadev tells them that now you should move away from this area.
Because here whatever predatory animals are there, that you have hunted. So now if you stay here and hunt further, this will disturb the ecology of the place. So then they move on to another place.
So it’s not that hunting is indiscriminate hunting of any kind, just for the sake of pleasure. But it’s a part of their training process. And that training process is also under regulation.
And we can’t apply the Brahmana codes of conduct, which we are trying to apply in our movement, which the Prabhupada has given primarily for making Brahmanas, that we can’t apply to Kshatriyas. Kshatriya life is different. And they are also having regulation.
And through the discipline, through the regulation that they follow, they also become purified. But their way of functioning and our way of functioning is significantly different. Because their duties, if you see the Bhagavad Gita itself, talks about Brahmana Kshatriya Vaishya in 18th chapter.
And in point 42 it describes Brahmana’s duties. And it says, ahimsa satyama krodhas, no, shamo dapastha pahasyocam, shantir arjavam yocha, jnanam vijnanam astakyam, brahma karma samavyam. Shantir is described as one quality.
Shanti can mean peacefulness. It can also mean forgiveness. We get angry and want to take revenge, but forgive.
That’s how you’ll stay peaceful. Others will stay peaceful. On the other hand, just in the next verse, when the qualities of Kshatriyas are talked about, one of the qualities is described as, yuddhe chaapya apalayanam, that tejakshya madhya tirudakshya yuddhe chaapya apalayanam.
Yuddhe means in the battlefield, apalayanam, they don’t run away. That means that when war is coming, they don’t run away from the war. At one level it means that they are not cowardly, they are heroic, they are fearless.
But at another level, that means they are not forgiving. When war is going to come, they have to fight a war. So just two successive verses and two different virtues are talked about.
Because both of them have to function in different ways. See, forgiveness is valuable as an individual practise in relationships. But forgiveness cannot be a social principle.
If somebody hurts me, I can forgive them. But if somebody is a criminal in a court, the government cannot forgive them. The government has to punish.
So Kshatriyas represent the government. So brahmanas are working at an individual level. Brahmanas are not the rulers of society.
So that’s why the point I am making is that there are different codes of conduct for different varanas. And Kshatriyas, as a part of their role of being martial guardians, are allowed to hunt under certain circumstances. Answer your question? Thank you.
Yeah, sure. Little loudly. Life is very valuable, right? Life is very valuable to someone.
There we try to achieve spiritual. But if it is not secure, how can we accomplish it? Yeah, that’s true. Good question.
From that point of view, how do you explain? Yeah, that’s true. How do you support? So we see that terrorists are now killing so many people. Taking so many lives.
And life is very valuable if you are to achieve any perfection. So if you are having a spiritual discussion and somebody attacks, then how do we see the whole violence of terrorism from a spiritual perspective? Yeah. See, the spiritual culture describes that there is protection through two means.
Through Shastra and through Shastra. Shastra and through Shastra. Shastra is scripture, is the books of wisdom.
And Shastra is the weapons. And both of them are used to protect. So scripture protects people from ignorance, from illusion, from misconception.
And Shastra protects from physical attacks. So just like if you compare the society to the body, then the head represents intelligence. And arms represent strength.
So the Brahmanas are considered to be the head of the social body. The Kshatriyas are considered to be the hands. And both are needed for a functioning body, for a robust functioning body.
So like that, for any society to be effective, there has to be a combination of Brahmanas and Kshatriyas working together. So the Brahmanas work for intellectual protection, proper education, removal of misconceptions, helping people to learn the principles of living. So in that sense the Brahmanas provide for spiritual well-being.
And the Kshatriyas are meant to provide for material well-being. So every society needs to have both these limbs functioning robustly. And the terrorists, as I said earlier, are the opposite of Kshatriyas.
Rather than being protectors, they are destroyers. Rather than acting in a principled way, they act in a cowardly, unprincipled way. So the understanding from the scriptural perspective is that there is God and there is people’s conception of God.
So these terrorists may say that we are fighting in the name of God. But their God, you could put God in double quotes, their God is a projection of their own conceptions. So their God is a God who hates the people whom they hate.
That is not the God who is the well-wisher of all living beings. That is not the God who is the sustainer of all living beings. So that God is simply a product of their own prejudice, their own imagination.
They may be fighting in the name of God. But any idea or any conception, it ultimately depends on who is using it. Even the best, most sophisticated surgical instrument, which can cut very precisely to heal even very difficult kind of, to cure different kind of problems in the body, that same scalpel can be used to kill.
So knowledge of God and devotion to God, they are actually meant to elevate people. But when religion is misused as a tool for rationalising one’s own ego, for rationalising one’s own agendas, then religion can become a very destructive force. So it is not religion that is destructive.
It is rather the mentality of the people who are using that religion for their own purposes that is destructive. So from the spiritual perspective, from the Bhagavata’s perspective, it is described there are three gunas, sattva guna, rajo guna and tamo guna. Mode of goodness, mode of passion and mode of ignorance.
These three modes are basically three different ways of looking at the world. And the same object can be seen very differently by people who are in different modes. So when people are in tamo guna, when people are in sattva guna, they see religion as a means for elevating one’s knowledge, elevating one’s consciousness.
When people are in passion, they see religion as a means for increasing one’s own prestige. If I am in a religious society, then if I show the world that I am religious, then people will respect me. There are many, especially in India, there are politicians who come to the temples, especially in festivals, not to take darshan but to give darshan.
They want photo opportunities, you know. Oh, I am such a good person, I came to this temple and so and so. So their religion is simply a tool for prestige.
It’s not a means for approaching God. And when one is in the mode of ignorance, religion becomes a tool for destruction. I use my religion to rationalise my heartlessly attacking and killing others.
So from the scriptural perspective, this is a perversion of the role of Kshatriyas, a complete perversion of the purpose of religion. So we do need vigil protection. So vigil protection with weapons against such aggressors.
At the same time, we also, some people are incorrigible. They are just lost in their own misconceptions. And they cannot be, they just have to be disciplined and they have to be punished.
But there are others who may be more open to be educated. And so where Shastra works to elevate people’s consciousness, that is excellent, that is the best way. But there are people for whom Shastra will not work.
They are just too caught in their own ideas. So for them Shastra is required. So that combination of head and hands, of scripture and weapons, both are required for the protection of society.
Does that answer your question? If I go where? If I go where? I might be killed if I go there. What is there? Where, where? What is there? He is saying, I don’t want to go to a spiritual gathering because of the fear of being killed. So, from the, it is from the 14th of November.
Okay. In that case, what is to be done? You have to save people, you have to give hope to people that you will come. Okay, yeah.
So, if we go to a temple and if we are fearful that some terrorists might attack and I lose my life, then we will become afraid of practising our, of practising religion, practising spirituality. So what can, what is, what can we do about this? There are, in any situation that we are in, there are things which are in our power to change, there are things which are not in our power to change. So, if we obsess over that which is not in our power to change, we simply feel powerless, we simply feel helpless, we simply feel resentful.
It’s always better to light one candle, no matter how small, rather than to curse the darkness. So, yes, there is a lot of darkness in the world. And it’s distressing when we hear terrible things happening.
At the same time, we have to see what is in my power to know. And we do that. So, the Krishna Consciousness Movement is primarily a movement for spiritual education.
So, Sri Prabhupada gave some purposes for his con, based on the Bhagavad Gita, and those primarily focus on elevating people’s consciousness. So we, as I said, in the part of Shastra and Shastra, we are focussing on the Shastra part, the Shastra part, where we are focussing on educating people through spiritual education. And there is, as I said, it’s important that the social protection also be done.
And that is something which is a far bigger task. Today, you know, America is probably the most powerful country right now. And even that country is still afflicted by terrorist attacks.
They are doing their best to protect themselves, but still attacks pop up over there. So this problem is far bigger than what you and I can solve, or what one particular religious movement can also solve. So what do we do? There are devotees, and this, you know, actually speaking, if you see, this world is always a place of problems.
This world is always a place of problems. And there have been throughout history people who have been brutal, and they have killed. If you look at European history, you see, there were two main population shocks.
One was the Black Plague, which killed almost one-third or one-fourth of the population of Europe. And the second population shock, it is said to be the invasion of Genghis Khan. They just left a trail of destruction wherever he went.
That’s happened in the past also. Now, because the world is so interconnected, so one attack that happens in one part of the world, that comes in the media and that becomes highlighted everywhere. So death and destruction is a part of the reality of this world.
And if you go back to the times of the Ramayana, there Lord Ram goes to the forest. And at one particular place called Ramteg, he sees a mound of bones. And he asked some sages accompanying him, what is this? He said, at that time there were Rakshasas who were living.
Rakshasas are basically cannibalistic demons. The demons were cannibals. And in the forest, sages had come to do austerities.
And these demons had come and devoured those sages. And so many sages had been devoured that a pile of their bones was there. So at that time, Lord Ram at the place called Ramteg, he took a vow, I will rid the earth of such cannibalistic demons who are out to destroy them.
So now, that means, even at the time when Lord had descended, at that time also terrible things were happening. So the nature of the world is that there will always be terrible things that happen in this world. But we do our part to set things right.
And there are others who will do others’ parts. So we cannot take the rule of law in our hands. And as far as specifically the Krishna Conscious Movement is concerned, we keep ourselves non-political.
So usually our temples have not been directly targeted. Because we have not seen the political movement which is going here, which is affiliating with this party or that party. And secondly, whatever security is possible, especially in vulnerable areas, we have security for the temples.
And beyond that, according to time, place, circumstance, the practises need to be adjusted. So for example, for 1000 years India was under Islamic rule. When India was under Islamic rule, Islam was very aggressively iconoclastic, you know, destroying temples.
So what did the Bhakti Movement do? We see Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, when Bengal was ruled by, Bengal was ruled by a very malevolent dictator at that time, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did not tell any of his followers to build temples in Bengal. He told his followers to build temples in Vrindavan because at that time Akbar was ruling. And Akbar was a congenial ruler.
But the Bengali king was not at all congenial. So all they told them is just do Haridams and Kirtans. Just do Kirtans.
So the idea is that when a river is flowing towards the ocean, there are different kinds of obstacles that may come. And the river somehow finds a way ahead, above, below, right, left, or it just erodes the stone and moves on. So like that, the Bhakti Movement is very resourceful in finding a way ahead to move towards Krishna.
So we have devotees in the Middle East. In the Middle East, they don’t allow for any public expression of any religion other than Islam. So what do devotees do? Devotees will practise Bhakti in their houses, they hire halls.
Now when they want to do Rath Yatra, they actually hire the biggest hall in the city and they have Rath Yatra inside the hall. So they are practising Bhakti in their own way. There is one American devotee who was enlisted in the army and sent to Iraq to fight the war.
And then he was thinking, you know, I’m a devotee, I don’t want to get involved in politics and all the war associated with that. But his spiritual master told him, that’s your duty, that’s your job, you should go there. And then when he went there, he found that, you know, even the American soldiers were so stressed and so fearful, so insecure about the kind of attack that they would get, that they were actually very spiritually ripe.
And you talk about you are not the body, you are the soul, the people who are living in an AC room, they may not be so interested. But if you are on the verge of death any moment, then the ultimate questions become immediate. So he found that they were very receptive.
He started sharing spiritual wisdom with them and they started taking it up. Then he decided to, he was a good singer. So his name was Partha Sarthi, incidentally.
One of the charioteer of Krishna, one who is the charioteer of Arjuna. So he went there and started doing kirtans in the American camp there in Iraq. And he started writing reports about his experiences there.
He called them battlefield bhajans. And then there, many soldiers, they did not really have good entertainment or this was good music, they started coming. And there in the American camp in Iraq, he eventually did a rathiatra over there.
And it was all, you know, the American soldiers were participating in the rathiatra over there. That was the first rathiatra that happened in Iraq. So you know, for devotees, they will keep finding their way to keep serving Krishna.
So if it is in our power, we can talk with the leaders of society and get more measures for protection. But we shouldn’t become so disheartened or disgusted by the state of the world that we turn away from bhakti. Every single mahamantra that we chant, every day that we study the Bhagavad Gita, now what we are doing is we are lighting our own consciousness.
And by lighting our consciousness, we are helping light the consciousness of others. So in the darkness of the world, we are lighting a candle. And right now we have the position to light a candle and we keep lighting the candle.
In future, by God’s grace, if we get to light something bigger, we can light that bigger thing also. So we focus on doing what we can. Just as the river always moves towards the ocean, we try to keep moving our consciousness towards Krishna.
Thank you. Any other questions? I have a little different. In a scripture, I am just, I am the reality.
You said that 14 planetary systems, I am just going there. And today what knowledge we have is the 9, sometimes 10 and all those, you know, confusions are there. So that is one, how to reconcile that.
And related with that, it is said in the scripture that sun is closer and that moon is farther away. So your questions are basically about cosmology. Both are together.
So for example, the Bhagavatam cosmology talks about 14 planetary systems, whereas we have say 9 or 10 planets. So how do we reconcile this? See, first of all, you know, we have a very simplistic notion of the cosmology that is given in the Bhagavatam. Say, we say, where is heaven? Heaven is up.
But if the earth is round and America and India are on opposite sides, more or less. So both people say, heaven is up. So where is heaven? Are you understood? So is heaven above America or is heaven above India? And the two above, two up are opposite.
So when scriptures talk about heaven being up, that is not a simplistic geographical up. It is not a simplistic geographical up. The Bhagavatam is talking about different levels of the cosmos.
There are different levels of reality in the universe. And we live at a particular level of reality and there are other levels of reality. So the, within the Indian knowledge of cosmology also, there are actually two broad systems of cosmological knowledge.
One is called as Puranic cosmology and the other is called as Jyotishya cosmology. Jyotishya or it is called as Siddhantic cosmology. Surya Siddhanta is one famous book from that, that set of books.
Now both these give very different visions of the cosmos. And if you go to the Jyotishya cosmology, that gives many figures which are very similar, the figures that are there in modern cosmology. So for example, the earth-moon distance, the earth-sun distance, that is described in Jyotishya cosmology, that is similar to what science has found out with modern cosmology, remarkably similar.
So now in that same system of knowledge, the same broad Indian tradition, there are these two systems of knowledge of cosmology. And the Jyotishya cosmology in most traditional systems of knowledge, astronomy was very closely connected with astrology. Astronomy is study of the planetary distances.
Astrology is study of their effects on people. So now for calculating any astrological chart, for making any astrological processes, even the Vaishnavacharyas, even the devotee scholars, none of them has ever used the Bhagavatam cosmology. They have all used the Jyotishya cosmology.
That means they knew these two branches of knowledge existed. And they themselves, their primary life was dedicated to teaching the Bhagavatam, living the Bhagavatam, explaining the Bhagavatam. But when it came to astrology, they did not use the Bhagavatam cosmology.
They used the Jyotishya cosmology. What this means is that they also recognise that the Bhagavatam cosmology is not for functional purposes in this world. It is more for a vision of a theistic universe.
When I say vision, that does not mean that it is just a conception. What I mean is that it is a way of looking at the world which shows how God, our devotion, Dharma and the Divine, they are all pervading the universe. And as far as operating in this universe is concerned, they use Jyotishya cosmology.
And they never put the two in conflict. So the Bhagavatam cosmology, the Bhagavatam itself describes, is right in the beginning as well as the end of the Bhagavatam. Basically cosmology is described in the Bhagavatam from the 15th chapter, the 5th canto to the 25th chapter, more or less.
A little bit more, a little bit less. But there itself, at the beginning and end of those sections, the Bhagavatam clearly describes two things. First is, studying this will enhance your devotion.
Second is, that ultimately because this cosmos manifests the glory of the Lord, the Lord is infinite and just as he cannot be completely understood, even this cosmos cannot be fully understood. So the Bhagavatam itself is telling that we cannot understand the Bhagavatam’s vision of the cosmos. We don’t have to agonise over it too much.
And the purpose is to enhance the devotion. So for functioning in this world, we do use the modern cosmology. There is nothing wrong in that.
So we don’t have to, as I told in my class on Sunday, we don’t have to position scripture as a competitor of science. Scripture is primarily giving us spiritual knowledge about how to elevate our consciousness. When we position scripture as a competitor of science, we devalue scripture.
We don’t have to devalue scripture like that. Scripture is giving us spiritual knowledge about how to elevate our consciousness. Science can give us some material knowledge about how to function in this world.
And there may be some areas of overlap where some contradictions may be there. And how to resolve them, that is for the specialists to discuss. And I have some seminars on this and there are devotees, scholars who are also working on this.
But we ourselves, we don’t have to unnecessarily highlight or aggravate this conflict. Because within the tradition itself, there is an example of two different visions of the cosmos and both being used. The Bhagavatam’s cosmology being used for increasing one’s focus on the Lord.
And the Yotisheya cosmology being used for doing practical functions in the world. So similarly we can have a modern cosmology and for Yotisheya cosmology. Sorry, modern cosmology and Bhagavatam cosmology.
So the Bhagavatam talks about 14 planetary systems. It is talking about cosmos seen from a different scale of perception. It’s not a human centred scale of perception.
If whatever Shukdev Goswami is describing in the Bhagavatam was readily visible to the eye, then Parikshit Maharaj did not have to ask it. He could just have looked at the sky and seen it. Shukdev Goswami is describing it because that is not visible to the naked eye.
So it’s a different vision of the universe seen from a different scale of observation. And the scale of observation can significantly change the object of perception, the object of observation. Just as I give the example again on Sunday that if we have chalk and charcoal and we mix the two together, I’ll see granules, I’ll get a grey powder.
But if I see the same thing under a microscope, I won’t see a grey powder. I’ll see white particles and black particles. Now what is it really? Is it white particles and black particles or is it grey powder? Well, what it is depends on from where I am perceiving it.
So we see the universe a particular way through science and that’s from our level of perception. The Bhagavatam uses the universe as seen from another level of perception. And we don’t have to necessarily see them as contradictory.
There is different level, different kinds of perception for different purposes. Did I answer your question? Thank you. Any other questions? Yes.
How to control sense gratification? Krishna talks about this in primarily three verses in fifth chapter. He says, 5.21, he says, भायस्परशेष्वसक्तात्मा विन्दत्यात्मन्यत्सुकम् सब्रह्मयोगयुक्तात्मा सुकम् अक्षेमश्नुते So he says, भायस्परशेष्वसक्तात्मा, the external objects of pleasure that are there, असक्तात्मा, one becomes detached from them and turns inwards. विन्दत्यात्मन्यत्सुकम् And when we do that, सब्रह्मयोगयुक्तात्मा सुकम् अक्षेमश्नुते That person will experience अक्षेसुकम्, unlimited happiness.
So basically, if we think about only in terms of giving up worldly pleasures or controlling sense gratification, that is our focus, we will never be able to give it up. Because we are by nature pleasure seeking. And if you are told, give up pleasure, we will feverishly resist it.
Like a person is starving and they have just some almost rotting food, some dry loaves of bread which are already rotting. But that’s all that they have. And somebody says, put it away.
They will not be able to give it up. They will fight with their life to keep it. Somebody tells them, here is a feast.
You take this feast and put it aside. Then they will give it up. So like that, in principle, our focus should not be on giving up.
Bhakti is not about giving up. Bhakti is about taking up. You know, we take up the process that connects us with Krishna.
We take up the activities that fill our heart with Krishna. And when we do that, then by that gradually the desires for worldly pleasure that are crowding our heart, they will get crowded out. So we should never make the focus of our bhakti controlling our senses.
We should make the focus of our bhakti connecting with Krishna. That’s why, in principle I understand, you know, external pleasures I have to give up, so that I can turn inwards and experience Krishna. There is unlimited happiness over there.
But the primary focus is on connecting with Krishna. Now worldly desires cannot be driven out of our consciousness, but they can be crowded out. That means it’s like if I have a glass over here, a glass of water, and if I want to, if the glass is empty, and I say I want to, I want to make a, I want to remove all the air from here.
It’s a very difficult task. I might get some vacuum generator and pull out all the air. But still a little space is left somewhere, the air will rush back in.
But if I fill the glass with water, the air will come out automatically. So like that if you try to create a vacuum in our consciousness, no, I will not do this, I will not do this, I will not do this, it’s not going to work. We may not be able to do it for some time, but afterwards again we will relapse.
So our focus should always be on connecting with Krishna. So Vindati Atmaniyat Sukham. We try to take up more and more activities in Bhakti, which give us higher happiness.
Now once we start practising Bhakti, then we will experience that, oh, I do experience some higher happiness. But still the worldly desires lure us. So at that time Krishna says we have to use our intelligence.
ये ही संस्पर्श जाखोगा दुख्योनयेवते आध्यान्तवन्तः कौन्तेर्य न तेशु रमते बुधा In 5.22, next verse, Krishna says that Buddha, the wise person, the wise person understands that, okay, the external pleasures are there, संस्पर्श जाखोगा, there is pleasure. But what is the result of this pleasure, what is the nature of this pleasure? दुख्योनयेवते योनी means womb. So दुख्योनयेवते means, he says worldly pleasures are the womb of misery.
That means, you know, when there is a child in the womb, initially the child is not seen. But a child keeps growing, keeps growing and eventually they will be delivered. So even if there is no sense of immediate misery over there, but it’s the womb of misery, from there misery is going to come.
And somebody may, आद्य अन्तवन्तः कौन्ते, the fundamental misery is that it is temporary. We want pleasure to last. But whatever enjoyment we have, it is temporary in this world.
We get some pleasure, but afterwards it gets over. And then when it gets over again, we have to slave to get it again and again. So the pursuit of worldly pleasure, if we are Buddha, if we are intelligent, then we will see it like, somebody works 25 years to get an engineering degree.
And then they think I will work as an engineer. But they are told after 25 years you get the degree and the degree will be valid only for one year. So what is the use of it? So like that if we consider for getting worldly pleasure, the amount of effort that we put in and the amount of pleasure that we actually get.
You know, we crave and slave, crave as, imagine with the mind and slave as we work with the body. We crave and slave for years to get some pleasure. And we actually get that pleasure, just lasts for a few moments.
Whether it be the pleasure of attractive partner, whether the pleasure of achieving something very big, whether it is gaining a big house or whatever it is. That pleasure just lasts for a few moments. And after that it is gone.
So a wise person, a Buddha understands that this pleasure is not worth the effort. Jiva Goswami actually explains in the Sandarbhas that for a pure devotee, for a Siddha, it is their preeti that keeps them in bhakti. They have love for Krishna, that’s why they practise bhakti.
But for us sadhakas, it is our buddhi that keeps us in bhakti. And we have to have our intelligence aware that okay, why am I doing this? So as long as we are intellectually aware of the nature of different pleasures, we will not let ourselves get caught by the promises of worldly pleasures. So now this is with the intelligence.
But then Arjuna has a question next. He says, even if I understand with the intelligence that this pleasure will lead to misery, but still the desires keep coming. So what do I do? And Krishna answers in the next verse, So he says, if it is possible for you Arjuna, to tolerate, till the moment of death.
What should you tolerate? The urges that are born of desire and anger, the word yukta is a variant of the word yoga. That means yukta means you will be situated in yoga. And if you tolerate, you will be situated in yoga and the result will be, that person will become happy.
So basically Krishna says, tolerate the desires. Tolerate the desires means that temptations will come, we don’t have to welcome. Temptations will come.
Just like, now if I decide that, no, there are so many people advertising so many things. I am fed up. I’m not going to purchase anything from the advertisers.
Now I may decide that I won’t purchase from the advertisers, but that does not mean the advertisers are going to stop advertising. What I’ll have to do is, I stop looking at the advertisements. Similarly, we can compare our mind to illusion’s internal advertising agent.
The mind will keep promoting, come on, eat this, come on, watch this, touch this, buy this. But then when we are spiritually aware, the proposal may come, but I don’t accept the proposal. Tolerate.
So tolerance means that we don’t let these desires distract us from our purpose. So when we do that, sayuktah sa sukhi narah, such a person will be connected in yoga and eventually that person will become happy. So broadly speaking, we focus on the practise of bhakti.
When we are distracted from the practise of bhakti by worldly desires, we first use our intelligence to know that this is not worth the effort. This will only lead to misery. And even if that, even after intellectually analysing, still the desires keep coming, then we tolerate.
Just because the desire has come inside me, does not mean I have to act on the desire. And it’s like, sometimes, I just, maybe yesterday I gave a full class on this topic of look at the mind before you look with the mind. Look at the mind means what? Suppose somebody sends us a WhatsApp message.
Now, if there are some people who just keep sending a lot of messages, and in that message they are giving links, you know, read this, watch this. Then now, usually when somebody sends a link like that, now we don’t immediately click on the link and watch it. We look at who has sent this.
And then if this person is sending, often tends to send spam mails, then we don’t click it. So before we look at the message, we look at the sender. We think about the sender.
So like that, similarly, look at the mind before you look with the mind. The mind is going to think of this, do this, enjoy this. Instead of immediately doing that activity, we think, is this really necessary? I have done this before.
Does this really give any pleasure? It simply gets me into trouble. Why do I need to do this? So basically, focussing on connecting with Krishna, then using our intelligence, and then using our tolerance. So first is that we have to focus on Krishna.
If you are not focused on Krishna, then trying to be sense controlled, it will simply seem like deprivation. It will simply seem like torture. So if you focus on connecting with Krishna, then even if we fail sometimes, our purpose is not that I have to become perfectly sense controlled.
Our purpose is primarily to become, I have to become connected with Krishna. So even if I sometimes fall from my senses, it doesn’t matter. I get up and start practising bhakti again.
And gradually I keep practising bhakti, I’ll become purified. So we may fall down, but we shouldn’t fall away. Fall down means I’m trying to practise some standards, I fall from those standards.
But fall away means I give up the practise of bhakti. So we should never give that up. If we keep practising, senses may drag us down, but again we rise and keep moving onwards.
And over a period of time, by connection of Krishna, we’ll become purified. And then we’ll be able to resist the allure of the senses. Does that answer the question? Great.
Any other questions? Yes, please. Okay. Okay.
So isn’t saying that we shouldn’t pursue worldly pleasures, isn’t that demotivating for someone like a student? There are two different things over here. See, even as a student, pleasures can be distracting. If as a student I have come to my college to study, and then if I start going for parties, I start going for movies, I start just hanging out in the social scene in the college, that can distract me from my studies also.
So when we are talking about worldly pleasures, the Bhagavad Gita tells us that don’t indulge in worldly pleasures, they are the womb of misery. It is basically talking about gross sensual indulgences, which distract us from our duty. The Bhagavad Gita does not tell us to give up our duty, saying that it is material.
You see, the Bhagavad Gita is spoken to Arjuna, and Arjuna was a champion archer, and he did not become a champion archer just by fluke. He practised tirelessly. He would learn from his teacher in the day, and practically late in the night he would keep practising the archery skills.
And he was appreciated for that, and he used those archery skills. So when we say that we shouldn’t pursue worldly pleasures, that doesn’t mean that we don’t use our worldly talents, that doesn’t mean that we don’t work as per our role in society. It simply means that we don’t see our success only in worldly terms.
A devotee has talents, a devotee will also work diligently to use those talents, but in a mood of service. So the bhakti vision of life is that what we are is God’s gift to us. What we become is our gift to God.
What we are, now we have certain talents, we have certain abilities, that is God’s arrangement, we have that. And we are meant to make a contribution in life, but we do it in a mood of service. God has given me these gifts, let me use them in a mood of service.
When we have that mood, then when we are using our talents simply for getting achievement in this world, then there is always uncertainty. If I don’t achieve, then what is the use of all my efforts? Or if I achieve something but I don’t get the recognition for it, if I am not praised for it, then what is the use of it? But if we have a higher motivation, now we are doing this to please Krishna, then even if we are not successful in the world’s eyes, still we will be internally fulfilled. Because through our work we will be connecting with Krishna.
So it is not that we are not meant to work diligently or achieve in this world, rather we don’t keep our goals restricted to this world. Our eyes are lifted beyond the world to Krishna. And we want to make offering, we are living in this world, so we want to offer things in this world also to Krishna.
But our goal is Krishna, not this world. That is the difference. And that, keeping the goal as Krishna, actually brings greater stability in our life.
And then there is a greater focus. If I am always worried whether I will achieve my goals or not, then I will become very insecure if I start feeling I won’t achieve the goals. If my goal is to please Krishna, and for pleasing Krishna I want to do the best that I can, then even if the result doesn’t come, I did my best, Krishna will be pleased.
And in that way we get inner satisfaction even when there is no outer achievement. And that inner satisfaction provides a stability by which you can focus more and get outer achievement also. Bhakti is definitely not about rejecting the world person.
It is rather about refusing to give the world monopoly on our conception of success and happiness. That means I don’t define success and happiness only in terms of this world. We see success in terms of how we are serving Krishna.
And because we are serving him in this world, so we want to do wonderful things for him in this world also. As students we should study diligently. It is Krishna who has put us in this situation.
And we want to use our talents in a mode of service for him. But even if that doesn’t happen, if we are connected with Krishna, we will be peaceful internally. Does it answer your question? Thank you.
Very good. Any other questions? Yes, please. Why is the caste system so misunderstood? Why are the Shudras treated so badly? Because Krishna is present in everyone.
Shouldn’t they be treated the same? Yeah. So, why is the caste system so misunderstood? Why are the Shudras treated so badly? If Krishna is present in the heart of everyone, then shouldn’t everyone be respected? Yeah. Actually, see, every system of organisation, it is only as good as the people who are executing that organisation.
The original purpose of Varanashram, the word caste system is a western nomenclature for what was then the traditional Indian culture. And the word caste actually, if you look at its origin etymologically, there is a little bit colour. And it is based on basically racial conceptions.
So, that is not the original understanding. Varanashram is based on the dispositions of people. So, the original is guna karma vibhagash.
It is by polities and activities. So, the original purpose was that different people are good at different things. And if they can all be engaged at what they are good at, then there can be cooperation.
So, the original purpose was cooperation. And people of a particular vocation, if they come together, then they have a sense of community that is bigger than a family. So, people of a particular profession, people who are artisans, people who are shopkeepers, they all form one community and they have belonging to a bigger family.
So, the Varana system, there was division, but the purpose of the division was actually bringing people together. It was to create a greater community. But unfortunately, just like in a country, we may have provinces or states.
And the purpose of the provinces is not to divide the country. The purpose of the provinces is to bring people, bring those people who are geographically or culturally or climatically, whatever, in a similar situation, bring them together closer, give them a facility to come closer. But the same system of division, which is meant to bring people within a state together, that can actually create conflict between the states.
So, like that, the purpose of Varanashram was cooperation among the various Varanas and greater integration within the Varanas. But what it led to was exploitation and discrimination. And why did this happen? Because those who were in power, they neglected or forgot the original purpose.
The purpose of Varanashram is that everyone should be spiritually elevated. And they should be given material engagements that are harmonious with their nature, by which they can be productive and they can focus on spiritual growth. But when the spiritual dimension was removed, then the material discrimination became highlighted.
And yes, so those in power like the Brahmanas and the Kshatriyas, they have often treated the Shudras and lower castes very badly. And unfortunately, there is no denying it. It’s a very terrible reality of Indian society.
But at the same time, we have to see that India is still the worst, we could say practically the only living civilisation, even older than Chinese. India existed even before. So, if the Indian society has been so brutally discriminatory, as is often portrayed in the media, how did this society stay on? You know, China was never invaded for 1000 years by foreign rulers, whose culture was very antagonistic to the original culture.
So, there is a tremendous amount of resilience within the Indian civilisation. So, if the Varanashram was simply filled with so much discrimination, then this amount of resilience would not have come. There would have been insurrection and the whole society would have got disrupted.
The fact that this has not happened, it is a pointer towards the reality that there was something within this social division that gave it robustness, the capacity to endure inner shocks as well as outer shocks. Inner shocks means discrimination if it was there, outer shocks was outer aggression. And that’s one thing.
Second thing is, when actually, this is not to deny that discrimination was there, this is simply to point that discrimination was not the only thing that was happening. If that was the only thing that was happening, people would have revolted long ago. Society would have got discriminated.
Second thing is that, even when discrimination has happened, if we compare in other parts of the world, you know, in America what happened? The natives were practically eradicated. That has not happened to Shudras in India. Nobody has eradicated them.
There may be, there is discrimination, no doubt. But if we compare other parts of the world, the brutality of something, things that happen, say when, not just in North America, but in South America, you know, the original Mayan civilisation, everything was just, within 100-200 years, when the European colonisers and missionaries, both came there, just wiped it out. Thousands of years were just wiped out.
So, discrimination is a horrible fact of life and it needs to be countered. But the magnitude of the discrimination that is there in the caste system, that is exaggerated far beyond proportion. And far more grievous things have happened elsewhere.
So, the cause of discrimination is actually spiritual ignorance. So, to the extent people see each other at the level of the body, I see I am fair, this person is dark, or I am born in this caste, this person is born in this caste, then it leads to discrimination. Now, the only solution is spiritual awareness.
Now, without spiritual awareness, you know, Karl Marx tried to create a classless society in Soviet Russia. And the result of that was, you know, George Orwell was an English social critic. And he says, all people are equal, but some people are more equal than others.
That’s what happened in Russia. There were masses who were poor and there were rulers, they were quite well to do. And the masses kept getting poorer and poorer.
So, at a material level, no social organisation is perfect. And even the social organisation that was meant to create a classless society, that also ended up creating two, at least two classes, the rulers and the ruled. The solution actually is to elevate people’s spiritual consciousness.
And to the extent that spiritual consciousness is elevated, then discrimination can be avoided. And that is what Srila Prabhupada did vigorously in the Krishna consciousness movement. And that’s why we see that, or to speak of Shudras, you know, people who are from the traditional point of view, considered even lower, lechas and yavanas, you know, they have become so spiritually exalted, that they, many times in India, they, you know, they are initiating people who are born in Brahmana families.
So, one of my, one of the senior devotees in India, he was from a traditional Vaishnava family. And he got connected with the Skaun, and then he was very inspired by it. He was in a Vaishnava family only, but he found the bhakti in Skaun very serious.
So, he said, I want to take initiation over here. So, his uncle got furious. He said that, you know, you are born in a Vaishnava family, you are born in India, in Brahmana family.
If at all you have to take initiation, take initiation from an Indian Brahmana. Don’t take initiation from an American. So, you know, this devotee is very intelligent.
He said, you know, I have seen my spiritual master. He is so deeply devoted to bhakti. He said, actually, when I go to him, I don’t see America at all.
I see bhakti. In fact, I see more of America in you than in him. Because so many Indians are westernised.
I am not saying that anything is bad about America. I am simply talking about the point over here, that this material vision, it can be reversed by spiritual realisation. And if to the extent we practise bhakti and we share bhakti, we can actually address the, we can actually address the materialistic consciousness that leads to discrimination.
Does it answer your question? Thank you. Great Krishna. Any other questions? Yeah.
Correct. Yeah. The Gita talks about gunakarmabhagasha.
Clearly it talks about by qualities and by activities. Not by, not by birth. Yeah, the Gita does not endorse this caste by birth, not at all.
Do the Puranas talk about caste by birth? Is it the Gita talking about caste by qualities and Puranas talk about caste by birth? See, no, now let me answer this. The genealogy and the psychology are not entirely unrelated. Originally the varnashram is a division by psychology.
The different people have different dispositions and accordingly they are given different engagements. Now genealogy and psychology are not entirely disconnected. There are two reasons for this.
First is, say, if in a particular family parents are doctors, the child wants to become a doctor. Then the child, if he or she, they want to become a doctor, then as compared to other parents who are not doctors, the child of doctors has a head start. So the upbringing will be such that for them to become doctors will be much easier.
It’s not that automatically by being born to doctors the child will become a doctor. That is completely wrong. So to say that somebody is born in a brahmana family and therefore they are brahmanas, that is like saying that.
I was born to doctor parents, so I am a doctor. Well, good luck to those who go to such a doctor then. So that is wrong.
But for somebody who wants to become a doctor, genealogy can actually help to develop the psychological, physical skills much easier. It doesn’t come automatically, but it’s easier. Now add to this one more point that we understand the soul is eternal and the soul goes from one body to another body based on its psychology.
That means the subtle body, the kind of thought, the kind of desire the soul has cultivated, that is what the soul gets an ex-body accordingly. And according to the Vedic understanding, when a man and a woman unite, at that time they get a child. But the kind of soul they attract as a child, that soul is basically the kind of consciousness that the parents have, that is a compatible consciousness soul they attract.
So that’s why if say a brahmana and a brahmani, they unite, a brahmana husband and a brahmana wife, they unite, then they are far more likely to attract a soul who is of brahmanical consciousness. That means a person who in a previous life has more or less lived like or developed the attitude of a brahmana. And that’s why the probability of a brahmana’s child being a brahmana is high.
So both from the facility for training in this life and both from the previous predilection, previous inclination from previous life, the chances of a brahmana’s son being a brahmana, brahmana’s child being a brahmana, that is high. But it is not automatic. And it is not that somebody who is born in a shudra family cannot become a brahmana.
So this in one sense, the genealogy, so varana determination by birth, for varana determination birth is not irrelevant. Birth is fairly important. The mistake is when birth is made the only criteria.
And when birth is made the only criteria, that means by birth somebody is assumed to have qualification. And just because of lack of birth, the other person is deprived of the opportunity to get the qualification also. That is where it becomes discriminatory.
So sometimes in scriptures there is mention about this person, this was a king and his son became the next king. That was how the system was, primogeniture. But then the next king was expected to, the heir was expected to develop the training.
And there were abundant facilities provided for the heir to get the training. And that’s how the succession would go on. So that’s how the relationship of janma and varana is there.
Hare Krishna. What have you decided? So does the soul choose its own parents at the time of birth? Not exactly soul chooses, rather the soul is allocated based on the choices it has made in its previous life. It’s more like based on our choices, based on the way we have lived in our previous life, we have developed a particular level of consciousness.
And in our next life, by divine arrangement, karmana daiva netrena jantor deha upapattaye, as per one’s karma, daiva netrena, under divine supervision, the process of transmigration happens, jantor deha upapattaye, the soul gets a new body. So it is by our choices, but not by, it is the choices which we have done throughout our life that develop, that shape our consciousness. And based on our consciousness, we get a particular body in the next life, a particular parents.
So it’s not exactly that the soul before dying thinks, oh, I’m going to be born in this parents. It’s not like that. But the soul’s choices shape the kind of parents that the soul will get in the next life.
The whole arrangement is done by divine supervision. Our choices are definitely the determiner, but it’s not just our desires. It’s also our karma.
So basically the getting the body, getting a new body is like getting a new house. So we get a new house, but it’s not just our desires. Our desire and our budget also is important.
So our choices are in terms of what we would like to have, but also what our karmic budget is. So based on that the divine will, daivana yatra, then decide what kind of body we will get. Thank you.
– Prabhu, just to add to what you are saying, many times we are saying that Vaishnava family also, the children born are not Vaishnava. So they go to the extreme end also. Children born into Vaishnava family, they go to the other extreme end.
So how we can understand that because the parents were so pious, so the soul they are affecting will be a pious. Okay. Sometimes parents of devotees, they don’t become devotees, rather they go to very materialistic extremes.
So how does this happen? There is a general principle, but there are always exceptions possible. So even the scriptures it is described that, say for example, Maharaja Anga was a very virtuous king, but he got a son, Vena, who was a demoniac. Even in Chaitanya Gaurlila it is described as Advaita Acharya, is an eternal associate of the Lord, is an alternate manifestation of God himself.
And he, his sons, one of his sons actually became a Mayavadi, became an impersonalist. So we have to understand that the soul always has choices to make in this life. So the parents’ consciousness, overall consciousness and the consciousness at the time of conception, that may attract a particular kind of soul, but then that soul is a free person.
And that soul will make certain choices in this life. And as far as our movement is concerned specifically, you know, if we see the way the Krishna Consciousness Movement started, it was a radical cultural transplant. Prabhupada, the Vishnu culture which was there in India, that was brought to the West.
And the first generation of devotees, Prabhupada’s disciples, they were very dedicated to Prabhupada. They wanted, they did a lot to share Krishna Bhakti all over the world. But, you know, they just didn’t know much about parenting.
So, you know, there is an old saying, it’s not only African, I think I have heard in India also, it takes a whole village to raise a child. It takes a whole village. It’s not just the parents who can raise a child.
So we, the children also have their needs. And sometimes the children of the first generation, often their needs were not adequately taken care of. Bhakti is a spiritual need.
But along with that, there are social needs, there are emotional needs, there are physical needs. So all those have to be properly taken care of. Sometimes that didn’t, in some ways, many of the devotees didn’t know what to do.
Because they were so young and they just thrust into a spiritual movement and sometimes they just were not equipped to do it. So many of these children, they have, they have valid grievances against the way they were brought up, against the way they were. So this is a whole different subject.
But the point is that, that every soul has free will. And once, and especially in our situation, there was valid reasons for people to get alienated, for especially the younger generation. So we should never make, either way, the children’s becoming a devotee or not becoming a devotee, that should not be seen as a test of the parent’s devotion, you know.
That can be one characteristic. But that is not the only characteristic. Every soul is individual.
That way if we see, then there are so many spiritual masters. Obviously spiritual masters are far more exalted than parents. And for many spiritual masters, the disciples fall away.
Initially disciples fall away. There are people who have taken vows. The children never took vows like that.
But then do we, do we, do we hold that against the spiritual master? No. Every soul is individual. Some souls can make some choices.
So our goal should be that we provide everyone the facility to practise bhakti. And the parents, if it has happened that their children have gone towards materialistic things, still the parents should maintain an affectionate relationship with them. And eventually the children have got the higher taste of bhakti.
In childhood they have heard kirtan, they have taken darshan, they may have had some unpleasant experiences, some terrible experiences also. But still they have got the higher taste of bhakti. And that taste will be there.
And in due course of time that will attract them back to Krishna. I know one, one devotee friend in India. He was born in a devotee family.
But when he came to teenage years, you know, he just, teenage brings rebellion with it. So for many devotees, especially in the first generation, it was their rebelliousness that brought them to bhakti. Because they were rebelling against the parent culture, against the culture of America or wherever they were in.
But for those who are born in devotee families, their rebellion takes them away from Krishna. Because that’s what they have been exposed to. So he went and started exploring many things.
At that time India was just getting westernised. So there was a music concert by a famous American musician. When he came to India.
So this devotee wanted to go for that show. He spent a lot of money, rushed through crowd, got through crowds, travelled a long distance and finally he came to that show. And he was sitting in that show.
As that show started, it was going on. His friends were cheering, jubilant. And suddenly it struck him, this is just noise.
This is just noise. He said, the simplest kirtas in the temple are sweeter. He had done nothing actually.
Just at that time, he got that realisation. You know, it was like something like Bilwamangal Thakur went to Chintamani. And he said, what am I doing here? He just realised that it was actually at that time Chintamani spoke to him.
But somehow, you know, how that realisation will awaken, we can’t say. So what we should not do is, when some people, some of our loved ones are not practising bhakti, just because of their not practising bhakti, we should not antagonise them. You know, we should not spoil the relationship.
Actually parents would like the children to practise bhakti. But even if they are not practising, the parents should always maintain nice relationship with them. And eventually their devotional impressions that are there, it will bring them to Krishna.
So if they make the whole relationship very judgemental and antagonistic, then that judgmentality and antagonism will stop them from coming to Krishna, even when they want to. It’s like, you know, if somebody is not practising bhakti and I tell them, you know, you are illusion, you are wrong. And now you are going away so foolishly, one day you will come crawling back on your knees.
If I say like this, what happens is, then even when they want to come back, their ego will not let them come back. And everybody has a sense of self-respect, everybody has a sense, everybody has an ego. We have to admit that.
So we should never make it an ego issue. We should never make it a prestige issue. It’s not that, you know, I am a devotee, so the proof of my devotion is that my children are also chanting Hare Krishna.
They are also practising bhakti. It’s good if they are practising, but they are souls and they have to be treated as individuals. And they will, in their own course, they will practise bhakti and they will take it up.
We should provide them the facility, but we should never impose. Does it answer your question? Thank you very much. How did you come into Krishna Consciousness? How did I come to Krishna Consciousness? Well, I have not yet come.
I have come to the Krishna Consciousness movement, but I have not come to Krishna Consciousness. It’s a long way away till now. But basically, I was frustrated by success.
So basically, I was born and brought up in India. My dream in life was to become an academic achiever, to be a topper. And I was always among the toppers.
I was second, third, a joint first, but I was never the first. So since my childhood, that was my dream. I want to be the first.
And when I gave my GRE in my engineering, so at that time I gave it in third year. And I liked English from my childhood itself. So at that time I got 2350 out of 2400.
Not only was I first in the college, but I was the first in the history of my college. Not only first in my college, but I was first in the whole state of Maharashtra. So I felt that all my dreams come true.
I was so happy. But after some time, I realised that there is no happiness in looking at the mark sheet. It’s only when people come and congratulate you, you feel happy.
And then I found that if somebody didn’t congratulate me, I was actually miserable. Why is this person not congratulating me? Does he not know what I have achieved? Or is he envious of me? You know, when this happened a few times, it just struck me. I had worked so hard.
I thought that achieving this will make me happy. But rather than becoming happy, I have become more dependent for my happiness on others. So my achievement does not bring any intrinsic satisfaction.
It brings satisfaction, but only when others appreciate it. So I felt that, okay, I might give another exam. I may crack it again.
But again I will be dependent on happiness for others. Isn’t there some way to be truly happy from within, within oneself, through some inner fulfilment? So that actually made me open. I had read the Bhagavad Gita earlier, but that was the time when devotees came and they gave me a Bhagavad Gita.
So I was ripe at that time. Another thing that happened was I was also interested in social service. Not more interested than active, but I was interested.
So I used to go to just near our college. There were some slums as a part of social service organisation. So I would go and like offer free tuition, free classes to the slum children.
And then we found that, you know, these children, most of the slum dwellers, the men over there were drunkards, alcoholics. I had a lot of domestic abuse and the family life was miserable. And I felt that, you know, by teaching these students mathematics or English or history, am I really helping them? So some of my other friends, I was just getting involved in this.
I went for a few months, maybe some more time, more than that. But some of my friends were more involved. So we all decided that actually we need to work not just for education, but we should also try to get people to give up alcohol.
So one of my friends was much more involved in it. And I worked with him. So he would go to a nearby village and they made the whole village dry.
And they got all the villagers to stop drinking alcohol. And that was considered to be a big success of our organisation. And one day, you know, I used to go in the evening to the slum and he used to go to that village.
That night when he came back, he was completely crestfallen. So what happened? So he said that actually just a couple of days ago there was a local municipality election over there. And the candidate, in order to woo the voters, he had brought two trucks of free alcohol for all the villagers.
And not only the villagers, but even their children had drunk alcohol. Like a complete setback. So, you know, I felt feeling that, OK, I’ll give education, but is it really going to help people? At the same time, one of my idols in college was a brilliant student.
He was a topper. He had been a university topper throughout all his eight semesters. And he had landed the highest paying job in the college history.
And he was a chain smoker. So he said that, he used to say that, I used to ask him, why do you smoke? You’re hurting yourself. I said, I can’t think.
I can’t study unless I smoke. I can’t concentrate. Then I just couldn’t figure it out.
He’s so intelligent that I can’t figure out electronics concepts. And he can just figure it out so easily. Why is he not seeing that he’s hurting himself? So within six months, he got the highest paying job.
He was diagnosed with lung cancer and he died. So I could see that right from people at the bottom of the economy bracket to people who are uneducated and people who are very educated. Everybody was being affected by their own bad habits.
So at that time, when I started practising bhakti, by Krishna’s mercy, I was born to very pious parents. So I was never into very bad habits. But I had a short temper.
I had some other small, small bad habits. So I found that by chanting Hare Krishna, I started getting purified of those. And then one of my friends was a close friend.
He had just started because of the campus culture, getting into a lot of bad habits. So then he was also introduced to bhakti through me. And then he just gave it all up.
It was a dramatic transformation. So at that time, I felt that by sharing bhakti, I can contribute much more to society than by writing software programmes. So that’s when, so after I finished my college, I worked in a software company.
Then I felt that, you know, if I don’t do this software, I don’t write software code, there are thousands of other people who will come and do it. But how many people are actually going to share Bhagavad Gita’s knowledge with others? So that’s how I decided to try to assist Srila Prabhupada in trying to share Bhagavad Gita. Thank you.
Thank you very much for coming. Thank you. Hopefully this is an annual event.