Overcoming obstacles 7 – Focus less on detachment from the world and more on attachment to Krishna – part 1

[Seminar in Alachua Learning Center, Alachua, USA]

Talk ppt

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna. So, welcome back to our last session. I’m a little afraid of showing this PowerPoint now.
In the last session, I said that I am very particular about spellings, and there are several spelling mistakes in the PowerPoint itself. Actually, somehow, I don’t like PowerPoints very much. Because, they restrict the flow of thought which I may build up in the class.
And so, all the PowerPoints which I am showing right now, I start preparing them after I get into Radhikeshwar’s car. And I finish preparing them by the time I reach here. So, I don’t even get to see them once again.
That’s why, there are some typing mistakes. Hopefully, there will be nothing here. So, usually, I have some thoughts organised what I am going to speak.
But then, those thoughts also keep evolving as I approach the time when I am going to speak. So, today, we are going to discuss about the heart. We discussed about obstacles, at the level of the mind, the intelligence, the ego.
And then, at the level of the heart, now, this is the theme which we discuss. Focus today is on detachment from the world and more on attachment to Krishna. Now, before I talk about detachment, attachment and the obstacle of the heart, let’s clarify terms a little bit.
Now, what do we mean by the word heart? At one level, the word heart is used very commonly in, in, in ordinary conversations. And it is used in two senses. Now, somebody in love may say that, oh, you broke my heart.
Now, or, another common usage is, he got a heart attack. Now, when we are talking about these two things, the word heart is same, but when we say, he got a heart attack, we are referring to the biological organ heart. And somebody says, you broke my heart, although we may represent the heart also by the same shape as the biological organ somewhat.
But what we are referring to is the, So, when we talk about, say, you broke my heart, we are talking more about the heart as the seat of emotions. Now, where, what do we exactly mean by that heart? So, from the point of view of this understanding of the Bhagavad Gita, the soul is the source of consciousness. Consciousness is the energy of the body, soul that radiates out to the body.
And emotions are a part of consciousness. Now, when we are conscious, then we feel emotions. So, soul is also the source of the emotions.
So, that means that ultimately the soul and the heart are the same. So, the soul, the heart is the seat of emotions and that’s the way it is used metaphorically and soul is the place from which consciousness comes, originates and that’s where emotions also come from. Now, we also associate the word mind, mind with emotions.
We say, okay, the intelligence is rational, it is logical, objective and the mind is what we associate with emotions. So, this is at another level we are talking about. If we consider, as Ramacharya says in his Gita commentary that the functions at the subtle level have three aspects to them.
First, there is thought, then there is emotion and then there is intention. Another word that is used is cognition. Cognition is that thinking about it.
So, cognition, emotion, intention. As Prabhupada said, thinking, feeling and willing. Now, if we consider these three, willing is an act of intention, feeling is emotions.
Now, feeling comes, we start feeling about something after we start thinking about it. Now, we see some image, we may see say, some place where there has been ecological, natural disaster and there are children who are starving over there. See that because the thought comes in the mind and then as the thought registers, then we start feeling emotions about it.
So, now, the very act of conscious perception, before we can even think about something, there has to be consciousness which is present. And only when we are conscious, then we can think, we can feel and we can intend. So, the consciousness comes from the soul.
And, so, they said that the five senses are centred around the mind. So, the inputs from the five senses come to the mind and the mind, we could say, is like a TV screen or a multimedia screen which is displayed for the soul. So, the soul is the observer, like the person watching the TV and the mind is the screen on which things are being shown.
And the soul responds to that. I like this, I want to do this, I don’t like this, just put it aside. Now, when we say that the mind is what feels, actually, it is not that the intelligence thinks and the mind thinks and feels.
It is actually the soul who thinks and feels. The soul uses the faculty of the intelligence for thinking, analysing, and the soul uses the faculty of the mind for feeling. So, although we associate the mind with emotions, there is also the soul which has its own pure spiritual emotions.
And the soul is the source of emotions. Now, in 2.55, 2.54, Arjuna asks, what are the characteristics of sthitapragya? And in 2.55, Krishna replies, he says, prajahati daakaman sarvan partha manogatan aathman eva aathman atishta sthitapragyas tad occhate So, he says, prajahati, one who gives up daakaman, all selfish desires, one who gives up all selfish desires, sarvan partha manogatan. So, all these desires are coming from the mind, manogatan, the base of the mind, from that all these desires are originating.
One gives them up. And then he says, okay, if all desires are given up, then does the person go to a desireless state of existence, an emotionless state of existence? No. He says, aathmanya eva aathman atishta.
So, one becomes satisfied within the self. That means that in the purified state of sthitapragya, gives up the desires that come from the mind. But still, it is not that there is a state of desirelessness or emotionlessness.
There is happiness. Happiness comes at the level of the soul. The soul is by its nature satchitananda.
And remember earlier I gave the example of a mirror. The soul, the mind is like a mirror. It reflects us.
And the mind is contaminated, then it becomes a distorted reflection of ourselves. So, when we are conditioned, most of our emotions are shaped by the mind. When we are pure, the pure natural emotions of the soul emerge.
Now, when I say our emotions are shaped by the mind, that simply means that the soul basically goes along with the mind. It’s like sometimes when we are working on a computer and then the computer, some programme starts and then says something is getting installed. It says, okay, click yes, click no, click yes, click no.
And it just goes on and all that we have to do is do clicking. The computer keeps functioning on its own. So, when the mind takes control, then the mind proposes certain emotions and we just go along with those emotions.
The mind proposes certain emotions like this. That’s nice. That’s not so good.
Just give that up. Come on, do that. And we just go along with it.
So, now, when we say the mind has its own idea, its own emotions, basically, that is like the whatever we have indulged in the past that is stored and that comes out as a default setting. So, the mind proposes and then we accept it. This is good.
This is not good. We keep accepting it. So, these are the emotions which are at the level of the mind.
And there are pure emotions of the soul which are directly connected with Krishna and they will emerge gradually as we become purified. So, we don’t have to go into a hair splitting analysis of which emotion is coming from where. The more important thing is which emotion is taking me where.
If I start thinking, if we hear a joke in a class and then instead of laughing, I start thinking, am I laughing for Krishna’s pleasure or am I laughing for my own sense gratification. There is no need to go into paralysis by analysis. So, the important thing is not so much from where something is coming but where it is taking me.
So, even if an emotion right now is coming from my mind. So, for example, if, say, I am attracted to writing. Now, is it the soul who has a desire to glorify Krishna through writing or is it that by my past karma I have a mind which is inclined to writing? It’s most likely the second.
But whatever it is, that is the way I am going closer to Krishna. So, each of us, we all have certain inclinations, certain interests, certain talents. Now, ultimately, what is present in the mind is also coming from Krishna.
Because the mind is also given to us by Krishna only. Mind is also Krishna’s energy. So, the purpose of analysis is simply to differentiate.
So, to highlight the point why I am talking about detachment and attachment at the level of the heart. We could talk it at the level of the mind also. The mind also has certain conceptions which determine our attachment and detachment.
So, those are emotions which are conditioned emotions. And the soul has its pure emotions which are distinct from whatever the mind’s emotions may be. As I said, somebody might be a male in this world and that person may be Gopi in the spiritual world.
Somebody may be a female in this world and there may be a Gopa in the spiritual world. So, the present body that we have, it need not necessarily reflect the role that we have in the spiritual world. So, we don’t have to bother too much about it.
The focus is, okay, whatever emotions I have, where are they taking me? They’re taking me closer to Krishna. Whatever interests I have, whatever inclinations I have, then that is positive and I can move onwards towards Krishna. So, the heart is what we want to offer to Krishna and Krishna says that he says the mind and the intelligence you offer to me and in this way you will come to me, he says.
So, the idea is that the soul, his consciousness is primarily rooted through the subtle body. Actually, Prabhupada writes in the introduction to the Bhagavad Gita that in the art of Krishna consciousness is fixing the mind and intelligence on Krishna. If we do that, then we become spiritualised.
So, because the consciousness of the soul is primarily channelled through the mind and intelligence. Now, let’s move on to few points. So, my point here is that when we are practising bhakti, when we are talking about detachment, I have to become detached, that means what are we trying to do? Okay, the mind has certain ideas, this is good, this is not good and I don’t want to get carried away by the mind’s conceptions, which is good, which is important, but the soul may not yet be involved, because even people like impersonalists, they can also be detached and they may not have any attachment to Krishna and still they are detached.
Not only that, see detachment is also a characteristic of the mode of goodness. So, some people who have lived in the mode of goodness either in the previous life or this life, they may be naturally detached in this life and what to speak of attachment to Krishna, they may not have much spiritual interest also, they may not have much spiritual interest also. Now one of the greatest paradoxes of say the last century was that Hitler who arranged to kill millions of Jews, Hitler was a very strict vegetarian.
So, he was detached from eating meat, he was a but you know he killed thousands of people, sorry millions, millions, millions. So, the point is that detachment is something which might just come as a result of some person’s past karma. So, if we make our, so the detachment basically just like attachment is to some extent a function of the mind, the mind is attached to something.
Detachment can also be a function of the mind. Yes, by the way a person has lived in the past, now they are detached. So, that is not, that is the detachment can be conducive for spiritual advancement.
But the detachment in and of itself is not necessarily a characteristic of spiritual advancement and it is not necessarily a definer, a parameter of spiritual advancement. So, this leads us to the next point, next slide, I am here only, sorry. So, defeat in the battle against temptation is not defeating the war for devotion.
What this means is that the war for devotion means there is the heart and the heart is to be made, the heart of the soul, that we want to make it attracted to Krishna. So, that heart which is to be attracted to Krishna, that is the war for devotion. Now, that is a lifelong or multi-lifetime journey and now there is one part of it is the battle against temptation, that there are certain temptations which attaches to the world and we have to give up those attachments to the world so that we can focus on Krishna.
But still, these two are not the same. Sometimes when we are practising bhakti, we may based on our conditionings, our particular conditionings, we may find particular temptations very difficult to resist. And then, the inability to resist that temptation makes us feel as if I just cannot practise bhakti.
I am not good enough to practise bhakti. And we become so disheartened by that that even when we can be practising bhakti, we don’t practise bhakti. So, it is not that we are not talking about just licencing any kind of indulgence.
We are talking about serious devotion. We are trying to practise bhakti but then they succumb to temptations. So, the battle against temptation is important but it is distinct.
The war for devotion is something which can go on. I will give the example, I will differentiate between the two for the analysis. Say that all of us at different times in our life, we are tempted.
And say we all have particular weaknesses by which we are tempted and when if you look at our consciousness, it is not that the temptation may be nagging us in the background but the temptation is not constantly tormenting us. There are some times when the temptation just peaks up. It becomes very strong and at that time resisting it seems almost impossible.
It is like a peak or a spike. Sometimes we consider electricity which is flowing and the power grid is not very controlled and sometimes there are spikes in the electricity. Many places where there are delicate electronic instruments, they have a spike guard that the electricity spikes, that devices do not get damaged.
So spikes means the electricity level suddenly goes up above the normal level. Like that sometimes our desires spike up suddenly and when the desire spikes up at that time we will feel I just can’t resist it and we may succumb to something at that time. Now of course that succumbing is sad, it is not a good thing but still after sometime we find the desire has come and it is gone.
When we define our bhakti primarily or sometimes even exclusively in terms of detachment from the world, then even after that temptation has come and gone we still keep thinking why did I do that, why did I do that, I am so foolish, I am so useless, I am so worthless, I am so fallen. So, now the thinking that I am so fallen, if it leads to humility that is good but if that thinking I am so fallen, leads to self-pity, I am just thinking about myself, myself, myself, I am not thinking about Krishna at all. Then, ok, say the spike came now and after that the desire is not that strong and maybe depending on the kind of desire it is, it in between in that time, we can still be practising bhakti, we can be connecting with Krishna, we can be praying to Krishna, we can be wholeheartedly doing bhakti but what happens when our bhakti is defined only in terms of detachment then we are even in this phase when we are not so agitated we are thinking about what happened at that time, why did I do that, why did I do that, and then this is basically again we are mind conscious, we are not Krishna conscious, when we succumb to the temptation what happens we are mind conscious, mind says do it and we do it and the mind it is very tricky, it plays a very dangerous double role, you know first it makes us a criminal and then the same mind becomes a judge, you fool why did you do that, so the same mind now what is doing, we are again mind conscious only, we are not Krishna conscious and then again after that the mind switches the role again and it come on do it and again we do it, so throughout it all we stay mind conscious, so when you stay mind conscious you are not Krishna conscious, in fact the more mind conscious we are the more under the control of the mind we come, so it is like another example is say suppose there is a boxing match going on, so there the two boxers are fighting and then one of the boxers gives a big blow, this other boxer has fallen down and now the boxer has fallen, naturally if it is knocked down the boxer will be disheartened and the boxer has to take courage and fight, what should the boxer do, so look at the coach, the coach says come on get up, you can fight, try this, hit here, be careful at this point, but instead the boxer is lying on the ground and the other boxer knocking down is looming about and this boxer looks at his opponent and says will I be able to defeat you, never, so he becomes completely discouraged, so it is like what has happened, the mind only knocked us down and then we ask the mind only, will I ever be able to give this up, he says never, you will never be able to give it up, and in that way we stay stuck in the attachment, so the indulgence in a particular desire, that is a problem, but the bigger problem is that we are always conscious of the mind instead of being conscious of Krishna, so okay, the desire came, I did something, but after that I can start practising bhakti, if I keep practising bhakti diligently, next time when the desire spikes up, still the spike may be so strong that I may again fall for it, but again I get up, again I start practising bhakti, over a period of time by this practise of bhakti, I will become pure enough, I will become strong enough, and then eventually when the spike comes, I will be able to resist it, so sometimes we give up on Krishna because our attachments are holding on to us, my attachment is still holding on to me, what is the use of practising bhakti, but even if our attachments are holding on to us, we can still hold on to Krishna, it’s like say somebody has fallen in a well, and there is somebody in the well who is holding that person down, and somebody from outside is trying to pull them out, and the person from outside pulls him up, and this person from below who is holding out, let go of the grip, and now I am in between, somebody is trying to rescue me, so I have come almost half the way up, but suddenly at that point the person from below jumps and catches me again, as soon as the person is catching and pulling me, now ok, I am being pulled down, but if there is a rope from above, I may even be pulled up, but still the rope will extend down, I can hold on to the rope, but what happens to us many times, just because we are pulled down, we give up the rope, and then we fall back completely, so by the person pulling down, I am referring to our attachment, the rope which pulls us up is the process of bhakti, so sometimes we may pull down even when we are holding on to the rope, and that’s possible, but just because we are pulled down doesn’t mean that we have to let go of the rope, yes we may be pulled down sometimes to some indulgences which are undesirable, but still we can hold on to the practise of bhakti, and with these two examples of the boxer, and this person in a well, let’s now look at the verse 9.30 from the Bhagavad Gita, when Krishna says, what does he mean over here, so actually many acharyas have given a lot of analysis of this verse, and some acharyas take a very liberal explanation, other acharyas take a very conservative explanation, so the conservative expression is, Jiva Goswami says this is simply rhetorical, that a devotee can never do sinful activities, he says but even a devotee does sinful activities, it is simply a rhetorical expression to glorify Bhakti, Bhakti is so glorious, if a devotee is practising Bhakti, even after doing sinful activities, still that person should be considered a great devotee, sadhu.
Another way of understanding this is, that actually, so, Bhajate Mam Ananya Bhak, the devotee keeps practising Bhakti consistently, now it seems a little contradictory, if Ananya Bhak, consistently the devotee is practising Bhakti, then how can the devotee actually be Sudurachar, consistent practise of Bhakti means that there is no scope for Durachar, or to speak of Sudurachar, terribly bad activity, so what it means is, that you could analyse in this way, sometime the spike of desire has come because of circumstances, because of conditionings, that time the devotee succumbs to something wrong, but after that, immediately the devotee gets up and starts practising Bhakti, doesn’t give up, doesn’t become disheartened, so sometimes by the force of conditioning, there may be some, some distraction from Bhakti, but immediately the devotee snaps back, comes back, and starts practising Bhakti such a devotee is to be considered saintly, so in our case, the point is not that a devotee can do any wrong doing and still the person is considered to be a devotee, that is not the point over here, that we all have to follow certain standards, and we all move forward from wherever we are towards the desired standards, but the point is, from wherever we are, we need to define our spiritual growth primarily in terms of how much we are connecting with Krishna, not in terms of how much I am able to give up my connection with matter, that is also important, but the primary is the connection with Krishna, so the attachment to matter or detachment from matter, both can be very well at the level of the mind, but attachment to Krishna is, if it runs through the practise of the soul, and the more we come to spiritual consciousness, the more we will naturally become detached from worldly attachments, so Vasudeva Bhagwati, Bhakti Yoga Paryojita, Janatya Ashu Vairagya, Jnanam Jaya Dahetuka, we keep practising Bhakti, then Vairagya and Jnana will come automatically, this does not mean that we don’t strive for Jnana or Vairagya, we can also strive for that, but our primary focus should not be that oh I want to get Jnana or I want to get Vairagya, primary focus has to be let me continue practising the process of Bhakti, and Krishna says in 12.9 that if we just keep practising the process of Bhakti, attraction to Krishna will emerge, even if you have no attraction to Krishna, just keep doing the activities of Bhakti, by that attraction to him will emerge, so this is the priority that is important. Now, so I’ll just take one more point and then we can move onwards to some question answers, now the problem that often comes when we define Bhakti primarily in terms of detachment is that detachment can make us very hard hearted, detachment, the focus on detachment can make us very hard hearted, it can make us very insensitive, and then Bhakti is also about soft heartedness, Bhakti is about a relationship with Krishna, but then it is not just a relationship with Krishna alone, it is a relationship with devotees also, and the relationship with devotees means that even in the community of devotees, we need some amount of soft heartedness, we need some amount of sensitivity, if that is not there, then we will be practising Bhakti in terms of doing the activities of Bhakti, but we don’t develop the soft heartedness, and then we come off as very insensitive, we come off as very self righteous, and that can create a lot of bad feelings in the devotee community also, so when the focus is too much on detachment, then the Vaishnava relationships are very difficult to develop, in whichever field we are working, so we have to move forward in our spiritual life in a way that our focus is on attraction, developing attraction towards Krishna, and whatever are our particular weaknesses, we know that okay, I have to deal with this, and we plan in terms of our own situation of how to deal with our particular attachments or our particular situations, so I will conclude with one point about this, how this detachment centred conception can lead to unhealthy consequences, as I mentioned that I answer questions on my website, and many times because there is the facility of anonymity, asking questions online, so people ask questions which they would probably not ask in a public class, so when Mataji asked me a question, he said that my sister and I, we were born and brought up in a very religious family, and since in our teenage we had decided that we would only marry men who were devoted to Buddha, and she said that when my sister, this is in India, when my sister was working in an office, she met a Christian boy and they developed a relationship, and they got married, he says, when I was working I met a Hare Krishna devotee, and I saw that he is very religious, very serious about his practise of bhakti, so then we got married, and he says that my brother-in-law, my brother-in-law, his religion teaches him that a good wife is a gift from God, and he says my husband treats me as if I am a temptation who has deviated him from God, he said that I did not force him to marry me, he chose to marry me, he said I also want to practise bhakti, but constantly I am being made to feel as if I have distracted him, so is this the way, is this what Bhagavad Gita teaches, that this is the way I am meant to feel throughout my life, so it is very, so her conclusion was, she said, you know, I feel that I would have been happier if I had married a different so I gave an elaborate answer, the answer was of course meant more for the husband than for the mother, but the thing is that, you see, in every relationship, there is always the possibility of temptation, you know, we have gross sex, and there is also, our Acharya has called it subtle sex, subtle sex is a name, fame, glory, Pujala Pratishtha, as it is, now if we consider the relationship of spiritual master and a disciple, now, it is said, instructions for the disciple, that the disciple, whenever the disciple sees the spiritual master, the disciple should glorify Krishna, glorify the spiritual master, you know, whatever the spiritual master has done for them, the disciple should glorify, now, if the disciple always keep glorifying the spiritual master, it may well happen that the spiritual master may become proud, but if the spiritual master start thinking, you know, disciples, they are going to glorify me, glorification means subtle sex, therefore, I won’t associate my disciples, I will keep them a long distance away, well, if that’s what you wanted to do, then you should not become a spiritual master. Yes, the temptation of thinking of oneself as very great, that is a possibility in that relationship, but that is not the definer of the relationship, the relationship is the relationship of service, the spiritual master helps the disciple to grow, and the disciple is grateful to the spiritual master.
So, even in the purely spiritual relationship like a spiritual master and disciple, there is the possibility of temptation, but then the temptation is not the definer of the relationship. Similarly, it’s not exactly the same, the big difference, but still in the husband-wife relationship, the temptation is a part of the relationship, but that is not the definer of the relationship, and over a period of time, both partners, they come to an understanding of at what level they can practise bhakti and then they move on, and unfortunately, in our spiritual life, we all have the idea of standards, I have to follow standards, so what happens is, sometimes our practise of spiritual standards becomes like a weapon for beating other people, so what happens is, I am fasting nirjano nikadashi, and then I go in the kitchen just to see who all is eating what, so attached, hopeless, useless, so what am I doing, my body is fasting, but my ego is feasting at that time, so what has happened over here, my spiritual standards are meant for what, they are meant to help me move closer towards Krishna, it is not that my spiritual standards are meant to make me feel superior over someone else, so what happens, our spiritual standards, instead of actually our spirituality, our bhakti, it should make us more understanding of others, just as I have my anarthas, which I am battling against, others have their anarthas, they are battling against, but instead of seeing it that, ok, my anarthas may be different, their anarthas may be different, they have particular conditioning, which I may not have, and I have particular conditioning, which they do not have, and we are all battling against anarthas, our anarthas, so if we focus on this principle that we are all fighting against temptation, the specific fights that we are having may be different, but we are all fighting against temptation, in different ways, then our spiritual practise will make us more understanding of each other, but if we focus very much on detachment and standards, that if I, so I talked earlier about, if we don’t become detached, then we feel disheartened, we feel hopeless, if we are not able to follow standards of detachment, the other possibility is, if I follow standards of detachment, I become hard hearted, I become proud, I become judgemental, and our spiritual practise is, instead of making us more understanding about others, they make us more judgemental about others, he is like that, she is like that, he is like that, they are like that, and with that way, then that becomes a big barrier in forming relationships. So spiritual standards, if they are used as a weapon to beat the other person down, then it’s a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of spiritual standards, and especially in every family, there are always domestic issues, sometimes spiritual standards become as weapons in domestic ego battles, I am detached, you are attached, and life becomes extremely complicated with it.
So it’s not that husband and wife are opponents in the battle against temptation, it’s rather husband and wife both are together meant to fight the battle against temptation. So when that is not understood, when the focus is too much on detachment, then the relationships, it is any kind of relationship becomes difficult to sustain, but especially the marriage relationship becomes very difficult to sustain in a way that is sustainable. So when we are practising bhakti, detachment is important, but also relationship is also important, and the process in bhakti, to some extent, for some time, we may be able to go on by the power of our detachment, but if we have to go on lifelong, if we are powered primarily by the sense of detachment, then bhakti will become a very lonely journey, because we are simply considering, I am so detached, and then the power is coming from our detachment, but if we understand that bhakti is actually a matter of relationships, then even when we sometimes go down, others will be there who will encourage us, who will help us, and we will move on in our spiritual life.
So, focussing on seeing bhakti as a relationship with Krishna, and a relationship with those who are related with Krishna, and then adjusting detachment according to a way that is sustainable, that is the way we can move onwards steadily in our spiritual life. That is why the focus is less on detachment, detachment is important, I am not minimising it, it is extremely important, but when it is made into all important, then bhakti goes into the background and everything becomes centred around detachment, and that can have negative consequences if we can be detached, that can have negative consequences if we can’t be detached also. So I will summarise and then we can have some questions or comments.
I started by speaking about how emotions, the pure emotions of the soul, they come from the heart, the heart is not the biological organ, but it is the seat of emotions and in that sense the heart is identical to the soul. And in the condition stage, many of our emotions, they come from the mind, ultimately everything comes from the soul, but sometimes I am just like I am working on the computer, but some programmes prompt something and it starts leading me through a sequence. So like that, the soul is the source of consciousness, but certain thoughts, desires, emotions, intentions, they just come from the mind and move on.
And so some emotions at our stage come from the mind and some emotions come from the heart. But the important thing is that we don’t have to bother where an emotion is coming from. The focus should be where the emotion is taking us.
So when we talk about emotions coming from the mind, I talked earlier about some people being desensitised to some things. So, you know, just as the mind is the source of attachment, the mind can also be the source of detachment for some. If somebody has lived in the world of goodness, somebody has lived a simple life, they have a choice to do detachment.
Their detachment is conducive for spiritual growth, but their detachment may have nothing to do with spiritual growth also. Murderous people can be vegetarians, they are detached from meat, but they don’t have spirituality over there, they don’t even have human sensitivity over there. So, when we have a detachment centred conception of bhakti, then we often stay mind conscious instead of being Krishna conscious.
And then, when you are mind conscious, say, if the spike of desire shoots up and the mind makes it succumb and then when it subsides, at that time the mind simply gives beatings, why did you do that? In both cases, we are not conscious of Krishna and in that way, we stay in the clutches of maya, in the clutches of the mind and maya. But, if we understand bhakti as primarily meant to connect with Krishna, so even if my attachments hold on to me, still I can hold on to Krishna. So, somebody is pulling me down into a well, I cannot resist that downward pull, but still I can hold on to the rope, which is connected to outside and gradually that rope will help me to come out.
So, no matter what happens, we don’t give up the practise of bhakti and when we are overcome by some indulgence, some desire, succumb, at that time it’s like a boxer is knocked down, the boxer is not to consult the opponent, he is not to consult the mind, we should consult Krishna’s devotees, those devotees will encourage us to rise and march ahead again. So, if we are detachment centred in our bhakti practise, we can’t be detached, we stay discouraged and we don’t grow much. If we are detachment centred and we become detached, then also we become hard hearted and then in the relationships we come off as insensitive and then that alienates a lot of people.
The essence of bhakti is not just detachment from matter, it is attachment to Krishna and that also means attachment in a proper way, attraction and attachment in a proper way to those who are attracted towards Krishna. The temptation is a possibility in every relationship, not just say the spousal relationship but also spiritual relationship of spiritual master and disciple. But rather than letting the temptation become the definer of the relationship, we focus on recognising that this relationship, it is not that this relationship is a temptation, rather this relationship is a means by which I can battle temptation and then how exactly that battle is to be fought, that standard can be decided by mutual agreement.
If spiritual standards become weapons for beating other people in our relationships, then the relationship So I think that I am becoming very spiritual, I am very strict but actually we may just be going on an ego trip. Rather than becoming understanding, we are becoming judgemental. When we keep Krishna as the centre and the practise of bhakti towards Krishna as the centre, then the detachment will naturally come and the detachment will come in a way that will actually help us go towards Krishna.
Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna.
Yes. You were mentioning about, you asked the question are my emotions and relations taking me away from Krishna? So what about the emotions and relations that take us away from Krishna? How can we handle them? Broadly speaking, we could say that we could classify our emotions into there are devotional, non-devotional and anti-devotional. Devotional means directly connected with Krishna, attracted to deities, kirtans, scriptures, devotees.
That’s devotional. The non-devotional means that they may be attracted to some material things in the world. Some people are attracted to say beautiful natural scenery.
Some people are attracted to various things. That’s not directly anti-devotional in terms of say violating the four regulative principles or anything like that. So generally the anti-devotional inclusions that are there, they are something which we have to strongly fight against.
It is not possible to dote them in bhakti, but the non-devotional inclinations that we have to see according to our time, place, what to do with them, how to process them. So some inclinations, some we could say there is expression of emotions. We can express emotions, we can repress emotions, but the third option also we can process emotions.
Process means we analyse them. So if I have a particular attachment, then I maybe read a little bit about that particular aspect of material life, analyse it, and sometimes by processing, intellectual processing itself, we may get the conviction this is really not worth indulging in. Sometimes something may just nag us so much, sometimes after some we may indulge in it and realise there is nothing great about it, and then we may give it up.
So which way we process it, that will vary from person to person. And the non-devotional that is there, it is not as dangerous as anti-devotional. And sometimes some non-devotional things may also be usable in devotional service.
So if we can find out some way to do that, then that’s also very good. So this division is not necessarily black and white of non-devotional and devotional. So ideally speaking, we focus on the devotional and then manage the non-devotional in a way that it at least is not disharmonious with the devotional.
If it becomes harmonious with the devotional, it is excellent. Does that answer your question? Thank you. Yes, my friend.
So from that answer that you just gave, I got a new question. It seems as if the one-time anti-devotional kind of emotion can occur when you’re in touch with somebody who has become offensive. But this often happens in a society of devotees, strongly agreeing on some point, then one group says of the other group, oh, they’re so bad and wrong, and no, no, you are so bad and wrong, but both sides are actually devoted and wanting to teach to the foul party.
So I guess my question is, in avoiding the anti- devotional offensive mentality, especially if it’s in someone else. I mean, myself, I see it as moving out, but if it’s in someone else, but I want to acknowledge the devotional part of them, how do we deal with that? Yeah. See, some devotees have an anti- devotional offensive mentality, and we don’t want to get that anti- devotional offensive mentality.
At the same time, you have to appreciate their devotion. How do we do that? I think a lot depends on that devotee’s focus. Sometimes, some devotees have some strong opinions about things, but they avoid those opinions at appropriate forums.
But there are other devotees who have strong opinions, and they are like constant campaigners about that. Anyone they meet, they just talk only about that. So that one thing becomes like the mission of their life.
Then, when we are associating with them, it’s very difficult to not get dragged into the controversy. Now, it’s natural that if somebody feels strongly about something, they will want to speak about it. But still, there has to be some regulation.
It’s like, somebody has some, say, somebody has some managerial grievances, and they give Bhagavatam glass, and then the Bhagavatam glass becomes a forum for criticising the management. That’s not the right thing to do. Yes, there are some grievances, but there are appropriate forums to express that.
So, if somebody has become almost like an undiscriminating campaigner for a particular cause, when associating with them means this is what we will have to hear, then we may have to keep a distance from them. Then, this will be very difficult. You may have to appreciate their devotion from a distance, and we keep a distance from them.
But, if they are, they feel strongly about a particular issue, but they are also able to keep things in perspective. So, if they start talking about that issue, and then we tell them, this is a very sensitive issue, I don’t want to get involved in this, can we discuss about something else? This is the most important thing. This is what we should be discussing.
Sometimes they start saying that, then what can we do? But, if they understand, okay, you don’t want to discuss this, let’s put this aside. Then, to the extent they are able to, that cause is going to be very important for them, but if they don’t let themselves be defined by that cause alone, then it’s possible that we can appreciate their other side, their devotional side also, and not get so caught and keep that anti-devotional offensive side at a little distance. So, it will depend largely on that devotee.
From our perspective, we can try to inspire that devotee or encourage or ask questions in a way that they will focus on non-controversial, non-offensive thing. That’s how we can do our part. But otherwise, sometimes some people just, it’s difficult for them to separate themselves from the cause that they have taken up.
There are certain causes which are important, but actually bhakti is much bigger than any specific cause. So, it’s important to recognise that the bigness of bhakti, which is bigger than, no matter how big a particular cause is. Does that answer your question? Thank you.
Yes, Madhu. Yeah. In regards to focussing more on Krishna and life, on trying to detach myself, or any spicy desire, not getting overwhelmed by spicy desire, is there, how would you suggest balancing when there is something that does need to be addressed, because I could also see myself falling into sadness.
Just be like, no, no, just chant Hare Krishna, just kind of that mentality. Okay. Yeah.
So, if we say that we should just focus on practising bhakti, then we may just neglect the some attachments or some conditioning that need to be addressed, and we may just rationalise, I am chanting Hare Krishna, everything is alright. Yes, that danger is there, definitely. Let’s say that there are two different things over here.
There are some anarthas of ours which affect only us. Say, if I tend to overeat, I tend to oversleep, that doesn’t affect too many other people. You can say ultimately everything affects, but it’s a very small thing.
But there are some anarthas which, which have much greater consequences. If, if say somebody is, somebody is embezzling money in the community, somebody is having an extramarital relationship, or something like that, that is a much bigger thing, and that has bigger consequences for the whole community. And that sort of thing has to be very strongly addressed.
So, I mean, I am talking about it as primarily our own individual battle against our conditionings, which are, which we needn’t obsess too much over that. But if there are certain actions which are having bigger consequences for everyone, then that cannot be rationalised. Then yes, when we say that they are, whoever is, whoever for them that is happening, for them also it’s a struggle to give it up.
Yes, it may be a struggle, whatever it is, but then such a person cannot be in a position of influence or leadership. So, it’s important to recognise that even among anarthas, or even among whatever lapses are there, there are degrees or there are, there are kinds. And especially something which is primarily my battle with my conditioning, it is not really affecting everyone too much.
In that, if there are lapses, that’s not a major thing. But that is something which we can battle and we can get over it. So, but if something is affecting a bigger community, then that time strong action is required at that time.
Does it address your question? Yes, madam. Talking about different kinds of life like name, fame, glory, and I would like to know the other things and also, is it, how to handle them and is it possible to tackle everything or what are the things that we cannot handle? Okay. So, when I talked about name, fame, glory as subtle, subtle sex, what are the different kinds? Actually, yes, there is basically gross sex or physical sex and then subtle sex is puja, labha, pratishtha, this is a bride adoration distinction.
So, can everything be dovetailed in bhakti? Actually, there is basically the, there is a and in past time of Prabhupada, there is one devotee, Pankajangaripu often tells this past time that, then this devotee was doing kirtans and he was very good kirtanier, playing brudanga and doing kirtans and once Prabhupada came to him and Prabhupada just had come for darshan over there, Prabhupada passed and said, your kirtan is very nice and for a devotee this is the ultimate compliment, spiritual mass is complimenting for your kirtan. He thought that, you know, I have got, let me confess my heart to Shri Prabhupada. He said that, Prabhupada, sometimes I feel proud and then Prabhupada just started going there, what’s wrong with that? I went away.
He said, what’s wrong with that? Isn’t there a lot wrong with pride? How can we say that what’s wrong with that? So, now the point is, certainly, if you read Prabhupada’s books, you will know that there is a lot wrong with pride. But the point which is to be stressed is that, actually, every anartha has to be worked out, it has to be purified. So, and there is a process for purification.
The process for purification is the practise of bhakti. So, when we all need a certain sense of identity, we all want to feel that, yes, I am doing some contribution, I am doing something, I am someone, and we are parts of Krishna. So, we are individuals.
in a sense, it’s natural. So, what happens is that, if the anartha of pride is there in the heart, and it’s not a matter of if, it is there in everyone, it is there in everyone, so that pride will want us, will make us do things through which we will get some fame, through which we will get some honour, through which we will get some praise. Now, if we do something in the devotee community to get that praise, to get that fame, then what is going to happen is, we will be doing some devotional activity.
If we don’t do that, the desire for fame and prestige will take us to the non-devotee community, and we’ll seek a name, position, prestige over there, and to get respect in the non-devotee community, we have to do non-devotional activities. So, the pride itself is to do the devotional activity only for getting the fame. And then, I’m not thinking about Krishna at all.
I’m thinking about how many people are praising me for what I’m doing. So, bhakti can be very subtle. Say, that, before I was introduced to bhakti, I had a desire to be a public speaker.
And then, I started practising bhakti, I started speaking. And, initially, when I started speaking, my definition of success of a class was, after the class, how many people come and appreciate. And I would prepare the class thinking, today this person will appreciate, this person will appreciate.
And one day, I gave a very good class. I thought I gave a very good class. I don’t know if the class was good.
I thought it was very well organised, this point, this point. And I was very, before giving the class, I was very absorbed, while giving the class, I was very absorbed. But after the class, no one came and appreciated.
And then, initially I was feeling very disappointed, very frustrated. But then it struck me, actually, while giving the class, I was thinking about Krishna and I was absorbed, I was happy. But after speaking in the class, I’m dissatisfied.
So, if I compare relatively speaking, the amount of time I focused on preparing for the class, the amount of time I spoke to the class and the amount of time somebody praised me for the class. I felt that actually, if all that time I had been thinking about Krishna, I would have been purified, I would have been absorbed. So, I said, what am I doing? It’s not that I’m free from the desire for praise, but it’s just that from praise, the pleasure that has come is so little.
From absorption in Krishna, the pleasure that is going to come is so much greater. Now, if I had not spoken about Krishna only, I would never have got this realisation. So, if we have certain talents, we have certain abilities, we need to use them in Krishna’s service.
Although there is a danger of pride becoming expressed, because while doing that service. But, the thing is that we sometimes say, if I do this service nicely, I’ll become proud. We may feel like that.
But it is not that by doing that service, we’ll become proud. Because when we say that by doing this service, we’ll become proud, that means we are assuming that I am not proud right now. Actually, pride is already there right now.
The only thing is, right now, I don’t have any reason for expressing my pride. When I do something, something special, then I have reason to express the pride. So, if I don’t do anything special, it is not that I don’t have pride.
The pride is still there. And then what will happen? Because the pride is there, it will come off in an ugly form as envy. So, if somebody else speaks nicely, and then others praise that devotee, such a nice class, he is just a show-off, you know.
So, the show is learning to everyone. So, how do I know? It is hard to know whether he is showing off and learning or not. So, what has happened? My pride is now coming off as envy towards that person.
But so, if we have certain ability, certain talent, just do a service to Krishna, and if you are doing sadhana bhakti nicely, if you are studying scripture nicely, associating with devotees, then even if there is pride, which comes up, you will realise, this pride actually doesn’t give enough satisfaction. It is just not worth it. In the Gopi Gita, it is said that, nija janas maya dhvamsana smita.
Krishna’s mind destroys the pride of his devotees. What does that mean? That means that when we practise bhakti, yes, we may become proud of doing such nice bhakti, but through the practise of bhakti, we connect with Krishna also. We see Krishna, we behold Krishna, beholding Krishna’s beauty.
There is so much joy in that, what is this pride? What am I getting out of this? Just let me forget it. So it is still always a battle, it is still always a struggle to fight against pride, but the central point of the fight against pride also is not that just being paranoid about pride and not doing anything. We do our services and try to keep focussing on Krishna anyway.
So the cure for pride is not suppression of talent. The cure for pride is purification of intent. I keep doing the service.
Initially when I give a class, initially when I sing, I am looking at how many people are going to praise me, how many people are appreciating me. But after some time I realise I am speaking about Krishna. Let me focus on Krishna.
I am singing about Krishna. Let me focus on Krishna. And in that way we become gradually the desire for pride gets replaced by the desire to connect with Krishna and become absorbed in Krishna.
Does that answer your question? Yes, ma’am. Okay. Last question.
Okay. I appreciate your time. The story of the scriptures really bring a very presence here about movement.
How intense is of the male management of women. And I found that the intention of having a wife is a gift of God. Immediately there is no aversion.
There is no restraint. There is no aversion. There is no aversion.
There aversion. aversion. How can we do to get a better awareness of that movement? Q sorny . There are other It’s a little more of a challenging, a little more of a warrior, warrior kind of an attitude towards women.
It’s almost like being afraid of women because of their own whatever. But how can we elevate the consciousness, how can we elevate the mood of this one towards having a more of a family, a little more of a dance, consciousness, and bhakti? So, where there is amount of negativity or hostility towards women in our movement, so how can we counter that and have a more of a family atmosphere? Once we start talking about how to do something in ISKCON, ISKCON is a very big organisation. So, we can always start with ourselves and the people around us at an individual level.
Gradually things will grow. So, it’s not that you mentioned that in the Christian culture the understanding is that a good wife is a gift from God. If you consider the broad Indian culture or the broad Vedic culture, whatever you want to say, that understanding is there also.
It is not that it is not there. There are many verses in the scriptural canon where I was born in the Indian Brahmin family and you know when in a family marriage happens, when the bride comes to the home, the bride is treated as Lakshmi. Lakshmi Devi, a manifestation of her is coming into the house.
And I think Manusmruti, there is a verse which says, Manusmruti, I don’t, the verse which says in a house where the women are not happy, the gods will never shower their blessings. Prabhupada also says that. So, there are definitely in the scripture tradition, if you consider the Indian tradition itself, among all the, among the many ancient cultures that are existing, that existed in the past, you know which ancient civilisation is still now existing? Egyptian civilisation, Mesopotamian civilisation, Iranian civilisation.
None of them are there now. Indian civilisation is still existing and although there are so many invaders who came to India, where did the resilience come from? For any civilisation, the family is the fundamental unit of the society. Unless the family structure was strong, the civilisation could not have survived.
So, I’ll say that it’s not that the Christian understanding of family life is more affirmative and the Vedic understanding is negative. Rather, within our movement, because of various factors, we have got a negative conception. The Vedic understanding is quite affirmative.
There is recognition that there is a renounced order. And the renounced order is culturally respected. But that does not mean that the household order is dedicated.
See, the nature of the conditioned mind is that when we take, make one thing as important, we make it as all important. yathu krsna vad ekasmin karyesakta mahetukam atattvārtha vad alpam ca tattvāṁ samudhārthaṁ Krishna says knowledge in the mode of ignorance means to take one thing and make that into everything. yathu krsna vad ekasmin.
Take that one thing, make it into everything. And atattvārtha vad, it is not proper understanding of the truth is not there in it. So, renunciation is important.
It’s a vital part of spiritual culture. And in general, in those religions where the renounced order is not emphasised or sometimes the renounced order is not present also. So, for example, in Protestant Christianity, there is no renounced order.
Quite often in Islam also there is no renounced order at all. Except in Sufis among them a few are there. But otherwise there is no renounced order.
In those religions, those religions become quite materialistic. For example, most of Protestant Christianity is governed by the idea of prosperity theology. Prosperity theology means that if I am devoted to God, God will provide me material prosperity.
And by the other way, because God has provided me prosperity, therefore, I must be very religious. It’s a measure. And say countries like India, they are poor, that means they are not religious.
So, the prosperity theology is very negative. So, unless there is a renounced order, in Islam there are many pious good followers of Islam. But at an institutional or organisational or national level, Islam is very strongly defined more by a political search for power than a search for God.
It can be a search for God, but at an organisational level it is very much a political search for power. At a level of community. So, the absence of a renounced order leads to problems.
The religions become very materialistic. But when the renounced order is present, if that is all that is made important, then it can lead to problems of entirely different kind. And they can be equally serious.
So, as our movement evolves in the second and third generations, we ourselves are seeing that the renunciation centred model is not sustainable. There are some devotees who are renounced and they are very pure and they exemplify renunciation very wonderfully. But it is not for everyone.
It is not even for the majority. And as this realisation sinks in, then gradually whatever is required for the sustainable practise of Ras Dashtam, that will also be adjusted. So, what we can do is in our own individual circle of influence, in our own life, in our social circles, we promote the proper understanding of grahastha life more as a partnership in the battle against temptation.
It is not that the spouses are antagonists in the battle of temptation. That understanding as it comes up, then in the Bhagavatam also there are words. I think there is third canto where it is said that when a king is attacked, the fort protects the king.
So, like that, a man who is attacked by censors, wife protects the man. There are many verses like that, but often they are not highlighted enough. So, over a period of time, just the experience of living in the world, it helps us realise that there is something wrong in the way things are being done over here.
And then the course correction will happen. So, historically, within our Krishna conscious movement, we have got an understanding which is overemphasising enunciation. And that has to be counterbalanced and it will be balanced over a period of time.
I can see a lot happening in that direction already. In fact, I would say that if I had been speaking this class 10 years ago, I would have spoken a very different class. I didn’t have this understanding.
I don’t even say that I have the right understanding now. I also have much more to understand still. But just by interacting with devotees, just by practising bhakti oneself, observing the devotee community, we all learn and then we grow.
So, scripture is actually understood not just by studying, scripture is understood also by living. So, as we keep studying and living scripture in a symbiotic way, gradually the balanced understanding will come. Does that answer your question? Thank you very much, Hare Krishna.
So, we’ll have a break and then around 3-5 we’ll join for the last session. Hare Krishna.