Understanding and fulfilling the Bhagavatam’s purpose by cultivating sensitivity

[Bhagavatam at Bhakti Center, New York, USA]

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
So I am extremely sorry for being late. I had thought that the Bhagavatam class was at a later time, quite early. So here we have the description of the hellish planets and in this particular purport Prabhupada talks about how the universal form is described so that we can meditate on the Supreme Lord.
And we can become, that is the purpose of this Krishna consciousness movement. So I’ll take three points over here. First is the purpose of the Shrimad Bhagavatam, the context of today’s understanding which makes people get some misconceptions about what the Bhagavatam is saying.
And third is our responsibility in how we fulfil the purpose of Shrimad Bhagavatam by seeing how Prabhupada himself expertly fulfilled that purpose. So the Bhagavatam throughout its description of various subjects has one purpose. That purpose is to help Parishad Maharaj remember Krishna at the time of death.
And similarly it is for us to also be helped in remembering Krishna. So to fix the consciousness in Krishna, to elevate the consciousness on the spiritual level, that is the purpose of the Shrimad Bhagavatam. And Prabhupada himself was quite clear, international society for Krishna consciousness.
So he came to establish this consciousness of Krishna. Now the Bhagavatam, it discusses various subjects. If you consider the description of cosmology given over here, in one sense it’s quite intricate.
This planetary system, that planetary system and this dimension, that dimension. And prior to this the Virat Rupa is described in the second canto and here also it’s mentioned. But throughout it all the Bhagavatam has one purpose and that purpose is made clear over here.
In the Mimamsa literature, Mimamsa is one of the six systems of knowledge and Mimamsa scholars have been very expert in analysing how to analyse scripture. That means what are the parameters by which we can understand the essential meaning of any book. So they say that if you want to understand what is the meaning of a book, you look at what is in the beginning of the book, what is in the end of a book, what is repeated most often in the book, what is emphasised most in the book, and what is special in that book which is not there anywhere else.
Five things. Upakramo samhara abhyaso apurvata phalam. This is called as a, these are five, upakramo is what comes in the beginning.
It’s like if somebody is giving a talk, let me say I am going to speak on this topic today. Then at the end they may summarise, okay we spoke on this topic today. In that talk class they may have spoken many things, but if you look at the beginning, we look at the end, we get some idea, especially the speaker is systematic, what was the purpose of that talk.
Then what was repeated most? Now if you look grammatically in any book, you may say the word that is repeated most is a, the, he, she, but those don’t convey anything. So what is repeated most is not simply in terms of statistical count. What is repeated most is in terms of significance and that’s why the next point is what is emphasised most? What is said most emphatically? Sometimes when we hear a class, at some particular point the speaker may speak with great emphasis and then we understand this is what the speaker feels most passionately about.
So that’s an emphasis. And lastly, what is there in this book which is not there anywhere else? Apurvata. So by these five criteria, we can understand what is distinctive about a book and Jiva Goswami uses these five criteria in the Bhagavata, in his Satsang Darbhas to analyse what is the essence of the Bhagavata.
And if we look at the start, I will not go over an elaborate analysis of these five points as he has analysed, but the point is that what is stressed at the beginning is we see Parikshit Maharaj is asking, what is the duty of a person about to die? And that is to remember Krishna. If we look at the end of the Bhagavatam, it is said, by this, thus we have delineated the glories of the Supreme Lord and that Lord is, His inexhaustible glories can elevate and liberate everyone. So what comes in the beginning, what comes at the end.
If we look at what is repeated the most, actually the theme of Bhakti is what is repeated the most. Time and time again, how by devotion one can attain elevation and liberation, that is what is talked about. What is emphasised the most? We can see the emphasis by the dramatic inversion of conventional hierarchies in the Bhagavatam.
A sinful person is supposed to go to hell, but by the chanting of the holy names, the sinful person Ajamila is stopped from going to hell. Normally, a demon is considered lower and a Devata is considered higher, but because Uttarasura is a devotee in a demon’s body, he is considered higher. It’s a dramatic inversion of hierarchies.
They stress the point that Bhakti is what matters the most. So Bhakti to Krishna is what is most important. And Apurvata, so this is what is repeated most frequently and repeated most emphatically.
And after that, what is unique? That unique is especially Krishna Bhakti. Krishna Bhakti in Vraja. Krishna Leela is described in various Puranas.
Bhakti is described in various Puranas. But Krishna Bhakti in Vraja with a proper philosophical background and a detailed description that is distinctive. So Krishna is the supreme personality of Godhead.
This is actually Prabhupada’s oft-repeated phrase. And Tamal Krishna Maharaj has PhD thesis. This we can call as the Mahavakya of Prabhupada’s teachings.
And if you look at the Bhagavatam, Bhagavatam is focussing on that. Krishna is the ultimate reality and we are meant to devote ourselves to Krishna. So this is the essence of the Bhagavatam.
And everything that we study has to be for fulfilling that purpose. So when we study the cosmos, sometimes the specific details which just appear too difficult, too unbelievable, too complex and we may get caught in that. So then we have to know to keep moving forward in our life.
Now if we have to move towards Krishna, we have to make sure that we don’t get caught up in anything else. Let in the books that talk about Krishna. There are many other things that are there, but if we can understand them well If we can’t understand them, our purpose is to move towards Krishna and that purpose has to be steadily maintained.
So Prabhupada writes that there is no need for interpretation of scripture many places. The scripture is self-evident and yet he gives elaborate commentaries. You know, if scripture is self-evident, there is no need for interpretation, then why is he giving commentaries? That is because the self-evident is often not evident to the self.
The self, it is, is often covered over by misconceptions. We all have certain preconceptions, misconceptions in our minds which come from our either past conditionings, from this life, from previous life, they come from our cultural upbringing, they come from our educational orientation and we filter the way we see things. So when we study scripture, then it is our own misconceptions which prevent us from focussing on the purpose of scripture and then we get caught up inside details and then the purpose of Shila Prabhupada’s purpose was to remove those misconceptions so that we could focus on the purpose of scripture, on the essence of elevating our consciousness.
So I talked about the purpose of scripture. I am talking about the second point now. What are the contemporary conceptions that can obstruct people in understanding scripture? Now specifically this section itself, the hellish planets.
The concept of hell is something which is very alienating to today’s people. They think that hell connotes a cruel God and hell connotes that it is a tool used by the religious priesthood to induce fear among the common people and keep them under their control. So they argue that the whole idea of hell is basically a religious tool for emotional manipulation of people.
Now there is in philosophy, especially philosophy of language, there is a whole discussion where is the meaning of words situated. Are words or language basically, is language simply like a pipe? Say from here, if I want to send water over there, I have a pipe and the water goes over there. The pipe is simply a means to convey.
So are meanings of words situated in the word themselves or are meanings situated in people’s minds? Because the same word may mean different things to different people. I was just a few days ago, I was in Krishna house in Florida, Gainesville and I met one nice person, very intelligent, very thoughtful, asking questions very intelligently. So a western person.
So then afterwards I told a devotee, he’s a very intense person and I spoke with him appreciatively. He’s very serious, intense in his spiritual quest. But then that devotee came to know that I called him intense.
He says, why did you call me intense? I was appreciating. He says, intense is not a compliment. He says, here in the west if you say somebody is intense, that means they are overbearing, they are dominating.
So the same word can have very different meanings. So I was in England, I gave a class and after that one, the devotee had organised the class. They had nice question answers and he came out of the class and he said, you killed it.
I said, what did I kill? Now killed it is a way of appreciating. You answered very well. So then I was shocked, what did I kill? I was a citron insect and I killed it.
So the point is, we may use words, but people get different understandings of those words. Because everybody has their cultural conception. So when the Bhagavatam talks about hell, the Bhagavatam’s conception of hell is very different from the Judeo-Christian conception of hell, which is what people think of when they hear the word hell.
In the Christian conception of hell, their idea is, it is a place of eternal damnation. You go there and never come back. Suffer forever.
So in the Bhakti conception, hell is not meant to give us punishment. Hell is not meant to give us suffering. Hell is meant to save us from suffering.
How can hell save anyone from suffering? No, the point is that hell, first of all, the defining difference is that hell also is temporary. Hell itself is temporary and people’s residence in hell is also temporary. So in that sense, hell is basically like a tough classroom.
It’s a place where we are meant to learn. And this world is a more congenial classroom. Hell is a more difficult classroom.
But it’s just a place to learn. And when our actions have consequences and we get those consequences, then we learn, okay, these are the kind of actions I should do, these are the kind of actions I should not do. So if there is no suffering, then actually, or if there is no consequence of action, then the person may keep doing terrible things and will actually keep suffering.
There is a disease because of which people don’t feel any pain. And, I forget the name of the disease, and children who get this disease, they are very prone, they may just, just playing around and they run and bang, hit their head against a wall. And their head is bleeding, but they don’t feel anything.
Just playing along, and just playing around and they fall down. So much bleeding, they die over there. So if there is no pain, then pain brings with it a protection.
So pain itself is not good. Pain is obviously painful. But pain serves a protective purpose.
And those children who do not have the protection of pain, they hurt themselves and they often wound themselves and kill themselves. So in that sense, the purpose of hell is not to cause us suffering. Yes, actions have consequences, so suffering is there.
But when we get those consequences of actions, those consequences prompt us to rectify ourselves. And thus, we are saved from further suffering which would come if we would do further wrongdoings. So in that sense, the first of all, hell is temporary and in the Vedic understanding as compared to the Judeo-Christian understanding.
Secondly, hell is not primarily for punishment. It is for reformation. So these two differences actually change the whole perspective of hell.
And without understanding this, you just focus on, you will go to hell and you will suffer and this and that. Now, we may want to convey one thing, but the audience gets something else entirely. So it is when we are sharing Krishna’s message, it is our responsibility not just to speak the truth, but to speak the truth in a way that is that people understand and are attracted to the truth.
So without that expertise, we may have the best intentions in speaking, but as we often say about social service, good intentions alone are not good enough. Sometimes with good intentions, somebody may do some bad things. Prabhupada gave the example of how in his neighbourhood once, he saw that a mother was chastising her daughters very severely.
And what had happened? He went and asked. So he said that her son, she had a son and a daughter and the son had got typhoid and he had been told not to take any fried items. And he had been begging, please give me some pakodas, please give me some pakodas.
And his sister thought he may be kind to him. And his sister gave him the pakodas. And what happened? He got terribly sick.
He would have died. He had to be rushed to the hospital. His mother was chastising his daughter.
Why did you give him pakodas? Even if he wanted it, even if it tasted good for him, even if you had, you only wanted him to be happy, but he was not happy. He became miserable. So the point is, Prabhupada gives the example that good intentions are not good enough.
We have to also act intelligently. Good intentions are important. So similarly, some of us, we may speak about Krishna with good intentions.
But if we, if our good intentions alone are not enough, people can’t see our intentions ultimately. They see our words, they see our actions and they interpret our words and actions based on their understanding. So understanding how they understand things is also our responsibility.
And a few months ago, I was invited to an interfaith conference in Pune. It was a Christian seminary. And this is the biggest seminary in all of India, in Pune it is.
So there, I found that they have 10, the students who become Christian preachers, they study for 10 years. And I asked them about the syllabus. And the syllabus actually is only 25% bible.
50% is Hinduism. And 25% is Indian culture, Indian history, Indian society. Because they feel that we are to explain Christianity to our audience, we have to understand our audience.
Only when we understand them, can we make our message understandable to them. So we don’t want to understand them to accept their views. But they may have wrong understandings and we need to correct them.
But we have to understand them so that we can make our message understandable to them. Prabhupada also, when he came to America, initially he stayed at the house of Sally and Gopal Agarwal. And if you look at what she says about Prabhupada, Sally Agarwal, she says that Swamiji was very interested in learning about American ways.
You know, how does this vacuum cleaner work? How do you coke? What do you do? Now Prabhupada did not adopt many of those ways. But he was eager to learn because he wanted to understand and then he could explain properly. So sometimes people have certain sensitivities.
As I said, the word hell has certain sensitivity in people’s minds. So we have to be careful about how we present it. One time I had been very sick and I had taken almost like a, in 3-4 days doctors had taken almost 35 blood samples.
So my whole body skin was pierced with needles. And a nurse came to take another body sample, another blood sample. And that nurse was actually touching my body for almost 15-20 minutes to try to find out where to pierce the needle.
Because there are needle holes everywhere. Now the nurse could have said, you know, my job is just to take the blood. You know, if you have holes in your body, that’s your problem.
I will do my job and go. But the idea was that, yes, I have to take blood, but I should take it in as less painful way as possible. In injecting, pain has to be caused.
But if there is already a prick, the pain will be more. Similarly, people have their own pinpricks. People have their own preconceptions, because of which they often get hurt.
And then if we speak something which pricks on their sore spot, it just, normally a needle prick is not very painful. But it’s in a hole where I already have pain, it becomes too much. So there are several issues in today’s world where people are very sensitive.
And we need to be sensitive about their sensitivities. To the extent we are that way, then we don’t alienate people unnecessarily. So many times when people hear these descriptions, they may think, oh, this is just all mythology.
And that is the concept, you know, I don’t want to believe this mythology. So I’ll conclude with how Bhaktivinod Thakur handles this in his essay on Adbhagwat. So Bhaktivinod Thakur, it’s a beautiful essay, which he gave as a talk to several of the learned people in Bengal.
And then he says, that as far as the complicated descriptions of cosmology that are there in the Bhagavatam, he says that basically, the purpose of the Bhagavatam is to focus on Krishna. And all these cosmological descriptions are meant to help us focus on Krishna. That is what the Bhagavatam itself says, as it is saying in this verse, that whether it is the Virat Rupa in the second canto, or whether it is the Brahma Darshan, whether it is the description of the universe given in the fifth canto, the purpose is to fix the mind on Krishna.
So at that time, these descriptions, these specific descriptions, help people to fix their mind on Krishna. Now, if in our case, we find that, oh, these descriptions are too much agitating the mind. I can’t understand this.
I can’t believe this. I can’t make sense of it. Then, what do we do at that time? You know, we recognise my purpose is to fix the mind on Krishna.
So even if it is in the Bhagavatam, something is not helping you to fix the mind on Krishna, I’m respectful to that. I don’t understand it right now. But I’ll focus on Srila Prabhupada’s purports.
And almost all of Srila Prabhupada’s purports, very few of those purports, he goes into the technical specificities of this dimension, this level, that level, he focusses even this purports on the principles of spiritual life. And those principles of spiritual life, if we internalise, that we also can advance and we also can move towards Krishna. So that purposefulness is what we very much need.
And for ourselves and for sharing with others. If you can have this purposeful focus on the Bhagavatam, then people’s objection, oh, you people, how can you believe this mythology? Well, what the Bhagavatam is, Prabhupada used several arguments, this is very wise people who have understood the deeper nature of reality, they are talking about this. They are not just spinning stories.
But the point is, what they are giving is the ultimate truths. And that ultimate truth of Krishna and devotion to Krishna, that is what we need to focus on. So, there are some subjects in the Bhagavatam which we need to go head on and deeply understand.
And some subjects in the Bhagavatam, which we need to move on through. And we focus on Krishna throughout. If we have that focus on Krishna, then we will not get distracted.
And whatever we study in the Bhagavatam, we will know how to integrate it in our spiritual quest, by which we move closer to Krishna through that study. So, I will summarise what I spoke today. I spoke primarily about how we can understand three points.
First is, what is the purpose of the Bhagavatam? I discussed what is in the beginning, what is in the end, what is repeated most, what is emphasised most and what is distinctively spoken there. Through all this, we can understand the focus of a book. And the Bhagavatam focusses clearly, Krishna and Bhakti to Krishna.
Then talked about how the audience can understand, people can understand differently based on their preconceptions. Say, the word intense or the word killed it or the concept of hell. All these people may understand differently.
The Bhagavatam’s conception of hell is different from the Judeo-Christian conception because it is temporary and it is for reformation. It is not meant to cause suffering, it is meant to save people from greater suffering, just as pain is a protector. And lastly, it is our responsibility to make sure that people get the right understanding.
And for that, we need to understand what they understand or how they understand, what their worldview is. So, Prabhupada learned about the American ways when he first came to America, so that he could explain to Americans. And we too need to know what are the sensitivities of people.
It’s like, before giving an injection, is the nurse responsible to cause as less pain as possible? So, like that, people, if they have certain sensitivities, then they’re going to cause big reaction in them. Then we have to tone down and find an appropriate way to explain in a way that causes the least agitation and actually brings about the greatest illumination. So, by this purposeful study and sharing of the Bhagavatam, we can actually help people to fulfil the purpose of Bhagavatam study, that is absorption in Krishna, without getting distracted by things that do not assist in that absorption.
Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. We have time for questions or comments.
Prabhupada said plenty of things concerning women, homosexuality and so on. So, I was having a question. Okay, I understand this point.
What’s the difference between being sensitive to the sensitivities of people and just pandering? Okay, I get it. So, Prabhupada may have made certain statements that are quite apparently insensitive to people. Now, there is only, you know, often we see only one side of Prabhupada.
And that side is often emphasised. You know, I once did a study of all of Prabhupada’s writings, of Prabhupada’s works. And see, I look at the word fools and rascals.
Prabhupada would use that sometimes. Now, if you see, there is a very calibrated approach. In Prabhupada’s conversations, Prabhupada uses something like, I have the exact figures now, I don’t remember it, but he uses something like, say 500 times.
In his books, it is less than 50 times. And especially in what he wrote as books. See, many of what we call as Prabhupada’s books are compilations of his conversations and lectures.
But what he personally wrote as books, when he gave purports, it comes less than 20 times. So, Prabhupada had a particular approach. And the approach involved, he was careful to speak carefully to people in general.
His books, there is in fact one lecture, one letter which Prabhupada says, one disciple in 1976 says to Prabhupada that, no, I want to transcribe all your lectures so that I can better understand your message. And Prabhupada says, that will be, that will be prayas. My message, I have given in my books.
Just study my books. This does not mean that his lectures are not to be transcribed or studied. But the point is, Prabhupada had emphasised.
And if we see, Prabhupada is very overall careful. He is not just blasting anyone and everyone publicly in his books. That is where the problem today is that what Prabhupada spoke very privately, we have put it in the public domain for everyone to see.
Then it becomes a problem. Now, say, if there is a small child and that child has a tendency to go off and talk with strangers. And there is some stranger and the mother says, no, he is a kidnapper.
Don’t go, don’t go to him. Now, don’t go, don’t go out of the house. There are kidnappers there.
They will kidnap you. Now, the mother may say like this. Does this mean, is it an absolute statement that every single person outside the house is a kidnapper? The intent is to protect.
So, Prabhupada’s intent was to protect people. And for that, to clarify, he spoke strongly. But we have to see also how Prabhupada wrote his books, which he himself considered as his most important contribution.
That’s one thing. Second thing is that sometimes when we study Prabhupada’s legacy, most of us, most people in general, they are not serious studiers. They are basically looking for soundbites, like those which have sensationalist value.
And Prabhupada’s segments where he is condemning, he is cutting, oh, fool, rascal, this, that, they stand out as sensational soundbites. But if you look at overall Prabhupada’s presentation, it’s very grounded in philosophy. It’s grounded in reason.
It’s grounded in systematic analysis and explanation. So, we can’t take these soundbites which are there. Although they are prominent, they are not the essence of Prabhupada’s message.
So, that’s the second point. Third point is that even Prabhupada himself was open to, Prabhupada had a strategy. His purpose was to share Krishna’s message.
And at different times, he adopted different strategies. So, when he met George Harrison, the short version of that conversation is in Krishna, is in our Chant and Be Happy, that book. But the detail is in Veda ways.
George Harrison was already connected with many other spiritual teachers. And Prabhupada, he says like this, and he says like that. And Prabhupada is non-committer.
Prabhupada doesn’t condemn those spiritual teachers. He says, okay, but Prabhupada takes the philosophical point and addresses it, whatever point he is making, and he addresses it from the point of Shastra. So, we have to see that Prabhupada had a strategy.
Prabhupada has a purpose and Prabhupada has a strategy. So, I would say the purpose is to get people to Krishna. The strategy was he spoke strongly.
But that is not the only way Prabhupada spoke. There are times when Prabhupada was, Prabhupada was very, very sensitive, very gentle, very caring. For example, when Prabhupada went to India.
In America, most of the people who came to ISKCON, they just joined ISKCON. In India, nobody was, Indians were already in their homes and their well-situated families. They are not ready to join.
So, Prabhupada accommodated them by creating a programme of life membership. So, you come gradually. So, we make a lot of, we actually misunderstand and misrepresent Prabhupada when we confuse his purpose with his strategy.
The purpose is to get people to Krishna. The strategy was strong speaking. But as I can give several examples of when Prabhupada, you know, was very gentle in his, the way, the way he spoke.
Say for example, you know, once a person came to him and asked, Swamiji, what is the bliss of Vaikuntha like? And Prabhupada says, oh, it’s like an ocean of LSD. Now, we may say, you know, how can you compare the bliss of Vaikuntha which is so pure with LSD which is so tamasic? But Prabhupada, what is he doing? He is explaining in terms that people can understand. Or even more drastic example, we say, on the way to Krishna, in that book Prabhupada says, if somebody is a drunkard and he cannot give up drinking, Prabhupada doesn’t condemn, you are a rascal, you are this, he says, okay, when you are drinking, think that the taste of wine is Krishna.
That that which attracts you in the wine is actually Krishna. And in this way, Prabhupada says, if you think of Krishna, you will become a great devotee one day. It’s not that by drinking you will become a great devotee, by thinking of Krishna.
So, Prabhupada had that side where he was expert in getting people to Krishna. So, he was, he had the command of age. He was 70, 75, 80 and because of that he could speak heavily.
Not this command of age, but he had also the command of purity. I met Bhaktiswara Damodaran Maharaj and he told me, and he has told several of his disciples also, that Prabhupada himself used fools and rascals when he talked about scientists propagating atheism. But in 1976 when they had the Life comes from Life conference, at that time he asked Prabhupada, how should we deal with the scientists? Prabhupada said, you should be courteous, you should be gentlemanly with them.
So, there are different strategies which can be used. So, as long as the purpose of getting people to Krishna is served, then the strategy can vary. Now, if we never tell the truth only, like say, I give the example of the nurse trying to find a painless place where to take the blood sample.
If the nurse says, I will not take the blood sample only, then it’s a problem. So, similarly, if we never tell the scriptural message to people, then that will be pandering to people, that we just tell them what they want to hear and never tell them what scripture is telling, then that will be pandering to them. But if we tell scriptures message in a graded way, in a progressive way, in a sensitive way which doesn’t alienate or hurt them unnecessarily and especially, to conclude with this point, we have to give people the opportunity to experience Krishna’s sweetness before they hear some of the off-putting statements about Krishna Bhakti.
Because once they experience Krishna’s sweetness, this is something special in this process, I want this and other things will be irrelevant. But for those who have not tasted Krishna at all, yes, here you speak this thing about this people, that people, I don’t want to associate this group. So, we have to, we cannot deprive people about the opportunity of Krishna Bhakti in the name of being faithful to Prabhupada.
Faithfulness to Prabhupada ultimately is that Prabhupada travelled all over the world to establish temples. No, he gave his life in his old age to build temples. What was that? To get people to come to Krishna.
And if in the temples, we speak in ways that people come to a temple and decide, I will never come again to this place. And how are we serving Prabhupada’s purpose? So, the way we serve Prabhupada’s purpose is by ensuring that people come to hear about Krishna. And yes, they have to hear about Krishna and we have to speak about Krishna.
But to speak in a way that helps, that at least gives them a fair chance to understand what is Krishna Bhakti before being put off by some of the controversial statements which are often peripheral to the essence of Krishna Bhakti. Intelligence means to know what is central and what is peripheral. And to hold on to the central and to let go of the peripheral.
So, we need to be intelligent and we need to help the audience also to become intelligent by holding on to the central. Thank you very much.