Appreciating the purpose of worship of the devatas

Bhagavatam class on Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.28.22 at ISKCON, Perth, Australia

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And that they make even Lord Shiva auspicious and secondly he talks about how they remove the darkness from their heart of the conditioned soul now the Vedic scriptures especially the Bhagavatam talks about the glory of the Lord in different ways this particular pastime of how Lord Shiva takes the Shiva that Lord Shiva becomes auspicious that is described in the it is associated with the Leela of Trivikram or Vamandev so Madhvacharya in his commentary on the Vedanta Sutra says that when there are forms of address given in the Vedic literature there are the name can refer to a person or the name can refer to an attribute like Shiva it can refer to the attribute of auspiciousness and Shiva can refer to a person so in English we have something like common nouns and proper nouns so some name say some people may have a surname like say some person has a surname called carpenter now carpenter can be a surname which is a proper noun but carpenter can also be a common noun where it describes the activity of doing carpentry work so he says that sometimes in scripture Shiva may be called as supreme but this Shiva he says does not refer to the personality Lord Shiva it refers to the attribute of auspiciousness which is ultimately present only in Lord Vishnu and that’s why we see in the Vishnu Sahasranam there is thousand names of Lord Vishnu which are traditionally recited by many great sages, Vishnu Pitamah also recites it on his last days there one of the names of Vishnu is Shiva Sarvashiva Sthanur Bhutadhed Nidhiravyaya so he says Shiva now clearly at that time when Bhishma is offering the prayers Krishna is in front of him so he is not referring to Shiva but he is referring to Krishna as Shiva, now does that mean Krishna and Shiva are the same person no because there are many other past times where Krishna and Shiva are talked about as being different distinct living entities so we have to be careful what is being referred to so now these two words are brought together Shiva and Shiva so one word refers to the personality Shiva the other word refers to the quality of Shiva of auspiciousness so it is said over here that the Shivatva of Shiva the auspiciousness of the auspicious being Shiva that comes from Vishnu so whatever good qualities anyone has ultimately those good qualities come from the supreme and while this principle is universal that even whatever good qualities we have they also come from the lord even whatever strength even the demons have Duryodhana was a very good mace fighter even his mace fighting skills came from Krishna ultimately whatever good anyone has that ability to do that good that quality comes from the supreme but the challenge is everything comes from the supreme but everything doesn’t take us to the supreme everything comes from Krishna some people say that ok if god had not wanted us to drink alcohol then why does nature allow the facility to produce alcohol through nature through grapes through fermentation we can make alcohol we can drink it well yes that is true but nature produces poison also do you drink poison no so we evaluate not just because whether to take something or not not just based on whether it is available or not we see whether it is beneficial or not so poison is not beneficial so we don’t take it although nature has produced poison but with respect to with alcohol we may say that it is enjoyable but then it may be enjoyable temporary but it is not beneficial yes in this world there are different arrangements made for different people and it is up to people to choose what they want so everything comes from the supreme but everything doesn’t take one to the supreme just like in an educational system that if there is a multiple choice exam all the options come from the teacher but all the options won’t pass the student student has to choose the right option so kamada kamyo it is said that in vishnu sasranam that vishnu is kamadaha he is the fulfiller of desires and kamyo he is the source of desires and kamaha he is the goal of desires we have three things if i have a particular desire it is lord vishnu who will fulfil the desire but whatever desires come in me they also come from vishnu only not that he wants us to indulge in those desires that is like the options that are coming but then he is the ultimate object of desire so he is the source of desire he is the source of the fulfilment of desire and he is the ultimate goal of desire in that sense everything comes from krishna but everything doesn’t take us to krishna similarly there are some people who say that whichever devata you worship ultimately all the worship goes to the supreme so there is a common saying in india that whichever god you worship the worship will ultimately go to vishnu just like when the drop of water falls from the ocean all drops of water ultimately go to the ocean so vishwanatha jagadhakur gives a brilliant analysis of this example and he says yes the worship will go to vishnu but the worshipper will not go to vishnu ultimately whatever good is coming from anyone shiva has worshipable qualities, ganesha has worshipable qualities durga has worshipable qualities so if somebody is worshipping them then because their worshipable qualities come from krishna so ultimately the worship goes to krishna but because in their consciousness they don’t see like that that’s why they will not go to krishna so ultimately it’s we who have to move towards krishna so krishna categorically differentiates in 9.25 he says that he is giving three modes of material nature those who are in goodness they worship devatas those who worship devatas will go to devatas those who are in mode of passion they worship the ancestors and they will go to the ancestors ancestor worship is still common in some parts of the world some people worship all kinds of ghostly beings, spirits nowadays it has become quite common they try to channel some mystical beings and many authors who write popular self-help books they say actually i am not the author of this book and they say i am simply an instrument for this wise spirit who as soon as i sit down to write this spirit speaks through me and the same worship that is meant to be given to the supreme they say i am an instrument of this spirit so there is one spirit saint who has written almost like 100 books through different channels and whichever author wants to become famous he starts saying that saint is writing through me so something like that so people worship the ghost also not literally but they consider the ghost as some spirit now when we use the word spirit in the sense of spiritual that is different from how people use the word spirit in the outside world people often use the word ghost and spirit together to refer to disembodied beings so bhagavatam is saying over here that the devatas are different beings and shiva gets his strength from vishnu and because of that when we worship different devatas different beings will get different destinations so now this can sometimes come off as sectarian you say why do you people worship only krishna why not anyone else that is not sectarian we are simply following scripture we are following the bhagavad gita and the bhagavad gita tells us this now we are not against demigod worship sometimes we may start thinking of or treating demigod worshippers as if they are sinful people they are also pious, they are also virtuous atleast they are following dharma in that tradition worship of the devatas has been quite common even lord chaitanya mahaprabhu would go to the temple of lord shiva he went to bhuvaneshwar when lord chaitanya went from after taking sanyas from bengal when he went to orissa he described where all he went ambulinga ambulinga is the temple of lord shiva bhuvaneshwar is there kapotesh is also the temple of lord shiva he is the master of the skull and he also went to temple and gopal temple so he went to all temples like that so its not that we disrespect the devatas or we disrespect the devatas even the worshippers of devatas we are not confused about who is supreme we are clear that according to scriptures it is krishna or vishnu who is supreme now in this particular pastime the shivatva of shiva so i talk right now about philosophically that all auspicious qualities of everyone come from the supreme and we see that this is actually the means by which krishna accommodates people in the christian tradition there is the idea that god is a jealous god one of the fundamental commandments there is that thou shall not worship any other god except jesus in fact the whole namaz prayer that the muslims say that is you should worship they have what is called a shikra one only allah is supreme and nobody else should be worshipped so they consider there is one true god and everyone else who is being worshipped is false god and the false gods have to be destroyed so that the worship of the true god is established that’s why whenever the kings of these religions would conquer any kingdom they would in a celebratory mode go and destroy the temples of what they call the false gods but in our tradition we don’t have this understanding of true god and false gods there is a supreme god and there are assistant gods so most of us know the story of the prodigal son the prodigal son is in the biblical tradition that there was this son who got inheritance from his father and he said give me my inheritance and he took the money and squandered it off and finally he was left desolate after all his money was lost he had to work very hard, feed some pigs he was getting injured and finally he thought let me come back even if my father accepts me as a servant I’ll be happy because at least my father treats his servant better than the way I’m being treated here but when he came back the father welcomed him with open arms and that shows broadly speaking the souls leaving god and returning back to god and how god unconditionally welcomes the soul back and this is often seen as an example of how merciful god is while that is true there is also another aspect to it that the lord is not just merciful in terms of welcoming the souls to come back the bhagavad gita understanding is that the lord also arranges for the souls to come back so imagine there is a king, the king has a particular kingdom and somehow the prince has got some argument with the king and because of this argument the prince leaves home and the prince goes to some other place which is actually also owned by the king only but not directly so the king sends one of his ministers over there and tells the minister you approach my son and you employ him so the minister goes to the son and says you are working over here not getting paid much I’ll pay you better come and work with me ok you are offering me a better package I’ll come to you then the minister then the son comes back to the minister and now the minister gets him back into the father’s kingdom and when he comes back into the father’s kingdom he is indirectly under the care of the father and now the minister is paying the king the salary minister is paying the son the salary but where is the minister getting the money to pay from it is from the king so the ministers are like the devatas and Krishna is like the king so in the Abrahamic tradition it is like the son gives up the father’s kingdom and goes away father just ok you go away when you want to come back I’ll get you back but in the Vedic tradition the father is so concerned that if you don’t want to submit to me if you don’t obey me fine you obey someone else who is my representative at least stay safe that way so this is the theme that Krishna talks about from 7.20 to 7.23 in 7.20 in the Bhagavad Gita he says he says those who have their own desires because of their intelligence caught by desires they go and worship different devatas and they worship them according to whatever rules are there for those devatas and then he says Krishna says that if someone wants to worship a particular form a particular devata he says I make their faith strong so if somebody now this minister is approaching the son the minister has to have some power I’ll employ you I’ll pay you what is your credibility I have this many people employed I have this property ok I’ll work for you so that’s why there are puranas which glorify the devatas and what is the purpose for that that glorification is for those people who are not yet ready to worship the supreme lord they can worship the devatas and that’s why there are puranas which talk about the glory of devatas so if you want to worship this devata there is this purana which talks about the glory of this devata and then this way Krishna says I make their faith strong and then with this shraddha with this faith when they worship they worship that particular devata then what happens they get their desires fulfilled but how are they getting it fulfilled it is I who am fulfilling those desires that means the king is giving to the minister and the minister is giving to the prince so like that devatas are providing to the worshippers but actually it is the king who is giving it is the supreme lord who is giving to them so now in this case the prince is indirectly under the protection of the kingdom of the king not directly but indirectly of course the father will prefer the king will prefer the prince to come back home so similarly in the next verse he says that he says that if you worship the devata the fruit that you will get is temporary whereas if you worship me the fruit that you will get is eternal if you are serving an employee you get some salary but it is limited the father’s whole inheritance is for you so like that there is definitely a difference between the worship of the devatas and the worship of the supreme but here there is a difference between this understanding and the understanding of the abrahamic religions in the abrahamic religions the idea is there is a true god and there is a false god and the false god has to be destroyed and desecrated for the glory of the true god to be established in our understanding it is not like that they are not true god and false god they are the supreme god and there are the subordinate gods the subordinate gods assist the supreme god now sometimes the worshippers of the devatas may not understand that their particular devata is subordinate because that is what is required for their elevation at that time that is fine even if they consider that particular devata to be supreme and worship that devata accordingly if they worship that devata sincerely that devata will guide them gradually there are many stories of this there is the story of a vaishnava poet named chandi das who would worship chandi now his brother was a vaishnava and he was a chandi worshipper chandi is the form of the goddess durga and then he as he was worshipping chandi he was very wealthy he had a big house, big garden his brother had a small hut next to him so his brother asked i have got my wish to shaligram shila can i take some flowers and worship shaligram he said no all my flowers are meant only for chandi so one day his brother had woken up early and gone out and as he was coming back he saw a beautiful flower there and in his mind he offered it to vishnu and then chandi das came and he took that same flower and offered it to chandi and as he was chanting the prayers to chandi chandi appeared and said i am pleased with you what do you want he said oh he was very delighted to see chandi and he said i have been worshipping you for so many years how is that you became pleased today he said today you offered me the maha prashad of my lord he said what do you mean she told how this flower which you offered me today had been offered by your brother in his mind to vishnu he said oh you mean worshipping vishnu is better than worshipping you of course vishnu is the lord of my lord chandi her lord is shiva and shiva’s lord is vishnu you have given me the prashad of my the lord of my lord so worshipping my lord is much better he said why didn’t you tell me you never asked me till now you were so busy asking me give me this give me that so based on your worship i was fulfilling that but today because you pleased me i am revealing the highest truth to you now after that he became a great devotee of lord vishnu lord krishna and he wrote beautiful songs but he didn’t reject chandi he kept his name as chandi das and he considered chandi like a guru who had directed him to the supreme krishna similarly there is a story of the great saint narsimha mehta in gujarat he was actually both a worshipper of shiva and vishnu and at a time of great distress he went to shiva temple and intensely prayed to vishnu praying praying praying fervently at that time vishnu appeared before him in shiva temple shiva appeared to him and he said what do you want and he was so distressed he said please give me that which you consider the best and then he was led to a well nearby and he climbed out of the well and lord shiva told him to go there and he found a deity of vishnu over there so then he became a vishnu so the point here is that at the higher level there is a cooperation between the different beings devatas and the supreme are cooperatively working towards elevating now of course the followers may not be cooperative the followers may sometimes be competitive and sometimes when the devatas forget their position like an indra forgets his position at that time he may also seem to become competitive but normally there is no war between the devatas there is no one upsmanship between the devatas and the supreme there is harmony there is a hierarchy and harmony within that hierarchy but with respect to so this is a very different understanding from the understanding of the abrahamic religions and here shiva shiva abhut that lord shiva he becomes auspicious because he gets his auspiciousness from the Ganges water that falls on his lotus feet so he is taking that water he is doing many things lord shiva actually when the Ganges water comes from the heavens down when vamandev expands his foot and then his foot cuts the universal covering and the water from the karana sagar pours into the universe and it comes to the heavens and it comes down to the earth its flow is so great it will shatter the earth so then lord shiva is requested and he says i will take it on my head when he takes it on his head he actually is doing because that water has touched the lotus feet of vamana so it has become like charana amrit and he wants it to fall on his head so he is both purifying himself by taking the water on his head but along with that he is also benefiting the earth by protecting it from the heavy impact of the water as well as allowing that water to be there on the earth so the devatas they worship the supreme lord and they benefit living beings in a similar way so when somebody is worshipping the devata at that time we have to be careful how do we deal with somebody who is a ganesh worshipper or somebody who is a shiva worshipper or somebody who is a durga worshipper one advantage of not being born in india is that there are these 33 million devatas one bypasses all the distractions because of that one comes directly to krishna because that is what one gets directly introduced to in india there can be distractions that may happen because of that but if somebody is already worshipping if they have been worshipping their family for the past generations they have very reverential feelings towards that and if you just dismiss that krishna says this is less intelligent those who are less intelligent worship the devatas well krishna is talking about less intelligence in a particular context the same krishna and the same bhagavata says that those who worship devatas are in the mode of goodness so actually to worship the devatas also requires some piety otherwise today people worship sports stars and movie stars and so many things like that in india i stay in pune so we had a temple of almost 35 crores or something like that big temple for krishna and that same city they had a 50 crore structure built as an exhibition for the cricketer who is considered the god of india all his exploits so when india won the world cup they had depicted this cricketer with his vishwa rupa and they had depicted the cricketer with the vishwa rupa and krishna’s mouth all the demons are going inside so they had shown him with the vishwa rupa and all the captains of all the other countries are going into his mouth so compared to so compared to worshipping cricketers it’s much better to worship the devatas that means authorised beings and there are also people who worship there are people who worship demigods and there are people who worship semi gods semi gods means say me god, i am god so there are so many gurus who are worshipped as if they are god so if those who are relatively speaking among so many beings that are being worshipped somebody is worshipping devatas from the perspective of worshipping krishna we can say this is less intelligent but from the perspective of worshipping so many other beings worshipping devatas is also elevated so we need to be sensitive so the idea is say if krishna bhakti is like one mountain and worship of the devata is like another mountain it is not that tall but it is another mountain so our goal should be to build a bridge by which they can come from that worship to this worship so how do we do that yes even if somebody is worshipping a particular devata initially no need to address that just tell them ok it is good you are worshipping the devatas good that you have some religious inclination, you are doing some worship most people are so materialistic nowadays you can come to a programme, do the courses, understand the philosophy systematically and most people who are connected to some devata worship also they don’t have any systematic understanding so if they just start understanding the philosophy systematically what happens is they start saying oh these are nice people, they have good culture they have good philosophical understanding, let me learn about it and when they learn about it, then it is like we are building a bridge from where they are till here now if the first thing we do is they are at the mountain, oh you are worshipping a devata, you are less intelligent then what happens, before the bridge is built we break it they will stay over there, they will not rise from there the worst thing we can do is when they are half way across the bridge that time we break it that means they are having some faith in the worship of the devata and they are also having some faith in the worship of Krishna and at that time we start criticising the worship of the devatas then what happens, this religion business is very confusing some people say Krishna is supreme, some people say Ganesha is this better I will not get involved in this only and they go off and become materialistic and atheistic that is like they are in the middle of the two mountains and we break the bridge and they fall down so our goal is to elevate people’s faith not destroy their faith so from where they are we help them to rise upwards and if they can’t rise upwards at least give them a favourable understanding of what lies upwards don’t disturb the minds of less intelligent people engage them so that they will be gradually elevated Krishna says in 3.26 in the Bhagavad Gita so we would like people to come to the worship of Krishna as Krishna himself tells in the Bhagavad Gita but at the same time they have to come at their pace unless we give them a proper understanding if we only hurt their sentiments then they will get alienated so whenever we are preaching to such people we have to see the commonalities yes which particular devta they are worshipping may be different but there are so many commonalities they also respect the Vedas, they also respect the deities they also respect the cows they also help overall in the protection of Vedic culture and the sharing of Vedic wisdom so we can focus on the commonalities and the differences can be gradually and sensitively handled and that way we can help people to rise from where they are upwards and not stay stuck where they are or go down further so here just as Lord Shiva is getting auspiciousness from the Supreme and is sharing that auspiciousness with others similarly if we take the lotus feet of the Lord on our head that means we take His mission as our life’s mission we develop the attitude of service then we too can get auspiciousness from the Supreme and share that auspiciousness with others in the way that is appropriate Lord Shiva of course is very very exalted and we are all tiny souls but still that mood of receiving auspiciousness and sharing auspiciousness that is there, that we all can do that and the lotus feet of the Lord are as it is said like a thunderbolt which destroys the mountain of ignorance that is there in the heart so it is not easy for us to try to fight off our lower desires but instead we just keep practising Krishna Bhakti trying to remember Krishna, trying to serve Krishna and that itself will overcome the negativity in our heart and by that we will move closer and closer to Krishna and help others to come closer and closer to Krishna so I will summarise I spoke today about understanding and appreciating the role of the Devatas in people’s progressive spiritual evolution so the Devatas when Shiva is being referred to it can be a proper noun referring to a person or a common noun referring to an attribute just like carpenter can refer to both so now whenever Devatas are called as Supreme we understand that it is their attribute that is coming from the Supreme and that is being addressed and they as persons are agents of the Supreme so there is the understanding of Devatas or Gods in plural that is there in the Abrahamic religions and in the Vedic religions Gods are considered to be false, competitors to the true God and the false Gods are to be destroyed so the Vedic understanding is that they are not false Gods, the Devatas are true servants of the Supreme God and in His service they are Gods so it’s like in the prodigal son, the Abrahamic vision of God is that God is a jealous God you have to worship me, if you don’t want to worship me then get out I will welcome you back when you are ready to worship me but otherwise no but the Vedic understanding is that Krishna is not concerned with only His worship Krishna is concerned with our elevation if you can’t worship me then I will provide you some substitute worship Him and get elevated so the prince who is estranged from his father is not ready to come back to the father and the father says ok, you serve a minister and you will stay connected with me in that way so the faith that the worshippers have for the Devatas that comes from Krishna and the ability of the Devatas to fulfil the desire of their worshippers that also comes from Krishna because the minister is giving the salary to the prince from the money he is getting from the king so there is this vision of connectedness, not conflict that is there in the worship of Devatas and the worship of Krishna so among the Devatas there is cooperation for elevation, although among the worshippers there may be competition when we are sharing Krishna Bhakti we needn’t treat the Devata worshippers as low or sinful or less intelligent they are also at least in the mode of goodness because they are worshipping someone higher in contrast to worshipping sports stars and movie stars or semi-gods they are at a better level so we are meant to be enhancers of people’s faith, not damagers and that means we focus on the commonalities encourage them to get systematic understanding and thus build a bridge from where they are towards Krishna so just as Lord Shiva is a channel of auspiciousness getting auspiciousness from the supreme and sharing it with others similarly we too can become channels of auspiciousness thank you very much, Hare Krishna any questions or comments? the question that you mentioned for the other Muslims and Christians they always think that their God is the best God how to overcome that kind of mentality? you explained that our way is to our Vedic way is not to compete but is to understand that understanding that the supreme one is working together to operate but the other religion is always one or the other see, if the other religions consider that their way is the only way, so how do we communicate with them? it depends on the level of consciousness of people see, in every religious tradition there are some exclusive statements this is the only way now those statements are meant not as an absolute truth but they are meant to create focus in the Chaitanya Charitamruta also it is said that anybody who worships Lord Krishna but does not accept Lord Chaitanya that a person is doomed does not accept Lord Chaitanya as the supreme but there are so many Vaishnava traditions they may not accept Lord Chaitanya as the supreme but still they are Vaishnavas so here the mood of devotion is to be understood this is Chaitanya Charitamruta, the book of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s glories so much has been described over there and the mood is that if you are worshipping Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is not different from Krishna so this is not an absolute philosophical statement it is more of a statement of devotional emotion so to give an example for this, suppose there is a doctor a patient comes to the doctor a doctor diagnoses and gives a prescription and the patient says, no but I went to this doctor and this doctor said this and I went to that doctor and that doctor said that and I had gone to that doctor and that doctor said that the doctor may say, just forget what everyone else told you just do what I am telling you, take this medicine and you will get cured when the doctor is saying just forget what all other doctors told that does not mean that all those doctors are wrong it simply means for your treatment you take this medicine and that will heal you so whenever there are any exclusive statements in any tradition their purpose is to create focus not to foster fanaticism but if that purpose is not understood then some followers can become fanatic so what do we do when such thing happens we have to actually try to be as open minded as possible and even among the followers of such traditions there are different gradations there are people in goodness, there are people in passion, people in ignorance even when they are religious people some people might just not be open at all one devotee who interacts with Christians he told me it is better to beat your head against a wall than to try to preach to Christians who are fanatic they just not going to accept but not everyone is like that another devotee who is in Ireland he told me that he had arranged at that time our movement was being treated like a cult and we were being criticised so he arranged for some interfaith programmes and he got a prominent Christian professor to come to his city and he arranged lectures for him and he asked him to stay in the temple and every morning he would come for the morning aarti so he was there for about a week and when he was leaving he asked how was your stay here he said it was very challenging what do you mean? he said that since my early childhood I was trained to believe that actually worshipping any form that’s idolatry and Jesus is the only way no one can access God in there but when I come into your temple and I see you worshipping I can sense the genuine devotion that is there so seeing this devotion was challenging for my understanding now my horizons have broadened so some people may say this treatment is wrong, this treatment is wrong but then if you go and look at the people who are taking the treatment they are getting cured then maybe the treatment is not wrong my judgement that the treatment is wrong is wrong so basically those people who are fanatical they will not see the transformation but those who are objective they see the transformation the people who are materialist are becoming spiritual are becoming devoted, they are getting transformed when they see that then it’s like they have to choose it’s like some doctor is saying prescription is wrong but patient cured then that means something is wrong maybe my judgement that prescription is wrong is wrong so if their fanaticism doesn’t breed fanaticism within us if we are just gentle, open minded and people observe us for some time if they are going to see us from a distance they will deem us as fanatical but if they observe us for some time they will see and they will appreciate so those who are relatively speaking in the mode of goodness they will be much more open those who are in the mode of passion or ignorance they will not understand so just leave them and those in the mode of goodness it’s definitely possible to communicate with them thank you thank you very much at the time of trauma