Strive first for devotion then for pure devotion

[Congregation program at London, UK]

Video:

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Thank you for coming today evening. And today I’ll speak on the topic of for a devotee, how do we understand what is material and what is spiritual. When Krishna protects, do we basically, the theme I’ll speak on is that we cannot become pure devotees without becoming devotees.
So, we cannot become pure devotees without becoming devotees. What this means is that we all are striving for a relationship with Krishna. And when we understand the principles of the Bhagavad Gita and especially the Bhagavatam, we understand that they stress the principle of pure devotional service.
That you purely love Krishna. And that pure love for Krishna is what will ultimately satisfy the heart. If for example, Prahlad Maharaj says to Narasimhadev, My dear Lord, don’t ask me to ask you for any benediction.
mamam pralobhayot patya saktam kameshu thairvarai tatsang bhito nirvino mukshus tu amupashruta. He says, My dear Lord, you are telling me, please ask for some benediction. But he says, I do not want for any benediction.
In fact, don’t tempt me, O Lord, by asking me to ask for a benediction. Because I have already born from a materialistic background. My father was demoniac.
So, don’t tempt me like this. And then he says, My dear Lord, if at all you want a benediction, want to give me a benediction, I want only one benediction. That benediction is, free me from the desire for any benediction.
And there he says, that if we go to the Lord for seeking something, I do service and then the Lord gives me some blessing, then we are not devotees, we are business people. We are doing business with the Lord. So, doing business with the Lord means that it’s simply a functional or transactional relationship.
It is not a personal relationship. Once a person went to a temple and it is a temple of the Goddess and he said, O Goddess, I have taken this lottery ticket and it’s worth one lakh rupees. So, if I get this lottery, then I promise you, I will give you, it is a one crore ticket, I will give you fifty lakhs.
So, then, eagerly waiting, the lottery result was going to come after one week. One day, two days, three days, seven days, and the result came. He was a prize winner.
And then he paused, he saw that he had won the second prize. The first prize was one crore, second prize was fifty lakhs. So, then he went to the temple and he said, O God, you are so clever.
You took your share beforehand only. So, when we treat God, we treat religious worship or devotion to God at a material level, as a business. Then in a business, the idea is that we try to give as much, as less money as possible and get as much of a product as possible.
And in that sense, you can even be a little manipulative in that. So, that attitude comes even in religion sometimes. So, this is the materialistic mode of worship which Shri Prabhupada often translates as religiosity.
Religiosity means we worship God simply so that God will do something for us. Of course, that level of approaching God is also good. It’s better than atheism.
But that level of worshipping God is not going to take us to God. Why? Because to attain Krishna, we have to love Krishna. But when we are worshipping Krishna for some things in this world, then Krishna is not the end for us.
Krishna is the means to an end. When Krishna is the means to an end, then Krishna cannot be the end that we will end with. If we love the things of this world, then that’s where we’ll go at the end of our life.
Whatever we remember at the time of death, that’s what we will go to. So, therefore, the scriptures do talk about how we try to practise bhakti purely, how we strive diligently to remember Krishna as much as possible. And not just diligently, but also as purely as possible, not seeking anything for ourselves.
So, this is pure devotion where we understand that the body is different from the soul and the soul’s ultimate interest is to serve Krishna. So, now, interestingly, sometimes we have said we should not be selfish. We should be selfless.
The word selfish usually has a negative connotation. You’re so selfish. That means you’re so concerned only about yourself, not concerned about anyone else.
But, interestingly, the Bhagavatam says, Prahlad Maharaj only says, He says, He says, foolish people do not understand that their real self-interest lies in Vishnu. Now, the word swartha, because the word selfish has a negative connotation, Prabhupada translates swartha as self-interest, not selfishness. But the point is the same.
He says that to understand that our self-interest lies in Vishnu, that is actually knowledge. And those who do not know this, they chase after various desires in this world and they get caught and they get lost. So, swartha gati.
So, once I gave a class on not giving up selfishness, but elevating the standard of selfishness. Elevating the standard of selfishness means that we cannot ever be completely unconcerned about ourselves. After all, we are the only resource we have.
Even if we are going to help others, unless we are in a good condition to help others, we can’t help others. If somebody is drowning, only if we know swimming, we can help them. So, if in the aeroplanes, whenever there is a security announcement, they tell, first put the mask on your face, then put on others.
Because if we are ourselves in danger, we can’t really help others. So, in that sense, taking care of ourselves so that we can serve others, so that we can serve Krishna, that is a part of taking of bhakti itself. So, ultimately, the soul that is absorbed in Krishna, the soul understands that Krishna is my best interest.
In the condition stage, we feel that Krishna’s interest and my interest are different. I want this, this, this. Krishna, I want this, this, this.
So, we feel they are different. And sometimes in the materialistic sense, we feel not only are they different, they are opposite. So, in the Bible, there are the Ten Commandments, in the Old Testament.
And there is an old Irish parody of Christianity. There is a joke on Christianity where they say, in the Bible, it says, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. They say that the Bible emanated from God.
So, there is atheistic parody on Christianity. It says, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was No. The Word was No.
No means you can’t do this. No, you can’t do that. No, you can’t do that.
So, some people may feel that religion is very restrictive. Put so many rules on you. Can’t do this, can’t do that, can’t do that.
So, when we want to enjoy the things of this world, enjoy them in a materialistic or even a sinful way, at that time God’s will and our will, God’s interest and our interest may seem not just different but opposite. I want to do this and I am being told, don’t do this. So, as we practise bhakti more and more, what we understand, initially we may think that this is the circle of my interest, this is the circle of God’s interest.
And there is no commonality there. They are either opposite or they are non-intersecting. One of my relatives, you tell me that I believe in God.
He is happy there. I am happy here. Now, yes, we may be happy here but the problem is how long can we stay happy here? The situations that we have in this world are always changing.
And this world is a temporary place and we want not just happiness here but we want lasting happiness. So, as we practise bhakti, we start seeing that these two circles overlap. Actually, Krishna’s interest and my interest are not that different.
And in fact, the Bhagavad Gita says when will we attain lasting peace? surudham sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvāmāṁ śāntiṁ vṛcchati śāntiṁ vṛcchati When will we attain peace? The Bible talks about the peace that passeth all understanding. It’s a sublime peace. At a material level there may be agitation but at a deep spiritual level there is peace, there is great joy over there, great security because one is connected with Krishna.
And one of the aspects of getting that peace is to understand that surudham sarva-bhūtānāṁ that Krishna is my greatest well-wisher. Sometimes right now we think yes, Krishna is my well-wisher but sometimes it doesn’t seem to be like that. Sometimes things seem to be happening in a way that is harmful for me, that hurts me.
So to the extent we understand this, to that extent we become peaceful. And not just peaceful, we become joyful, spiritually joyful because we are connected with Krishna, we are absorbed in Krishna. So we consider, say this was a situation where our circle of interest and Krishna’s circle of interest were completely different.
Now when we are practising bhakti, we have our circle of interest and we have Krishna’s circle of interest which are intersecting. But still we may feel that there are some things in my circle of interest, are they of Krishna’s interest? Say for example, we may be told that don’t pray to Krishna for material things. Pray to Krishna only for spiritual things.
So that means is it that our material side is out of the circle of interest of Krishna and it’s only our spiritual side that is of interest? At one level, separating the material and the spiritual is important. Why? Because the body and the soul are different. At the same time, when we live in the world, we may philosophically understand I am not the body and the soul.
But at a practical level, we are still living in the body. And at a practical level, we cannot act at the level that I am not the body. What we can act is at the level I am more than the body.
I am more than the body. I am not just the body. That means the bodily needs are there but I have needs beyond the body’s needs also.
And I need to take care of that also. And that I am more than the body, that understanding will gradually increase as you keep practising bhakti. There is a letter of Srila Prabhupada where he says to a devotee who had been overworking and had fallen sick.
So Prabhupada says that if you don’t take care of your health now, in future, you won’t be able to serve Krishna even if you are very enthusiastic to serve. So sometimes we may say enthusiasm is very important to serve Krishna. That’s true.
But enthusiasm alone is not enough if the bodily implement, bodily tool is not working. So Krishna talks about yukta-ahara-viharasya. So that regulate your eating, sleeping, so that yogo bhavati dukkhaha.
It’s an interesting verse. yukta-ahara-viharasya, yukta-cheshtasya karmasu, yukta-sapnava-bodhasya, yogo bhavati dukkhaha. It’s 6.17 in the Gita where Krishna is telling that by the practise of yoga, bhavati will happen.
Dukkhaha, freedom from distress. So freedom from distress will come by the practise of yoga when what? When yukta-ahara-viharasya, yukta-cheshtasya karmasu, yukta-sapnava-bodhasya. When one is regulated one’s eating, one’s sleeping, one’s working, one’s recreation, then by such regulated living one will attain freedom from distress by the practise of yoga.
So Krishna is saying that means for yoga to elevate us spiritually. You can say yoga is the process of spiritual connection. Spiritual connection and spiritual elevation by which we go beyond the material level.
But for the spiritual connection to take place, Krishna says there has to be material regulation. If there is no material regulation then the spiritual connection will not take place. Why is that? Actually if the matter and the spirit are different then why the material regulation is required for spiritual connection? Simple thing.
Suppose say it’s Ekadashi, now it’s Ekadashi today and say we decide I’ll fast Nirjala Ekadashi. I decide I’ll not take any food and then I will chant 64 rounds and then our body is not able to bear that fasting. So we are chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, but in the mind Prasad, Prasad, Prasad, Hare Krishna Prasad, Prasad, Prasad, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Prasad, Prasad, Prasad So our tongue is chanting Krishna’s name, our mind is chanting Prasad, Prasad, Prasad So at that time how much is that chanting going to help us? Yes, sometimes a little bit of austerity it acts as an impetus to force us to fix our consciousness on Krishna.
Oh you know I’m feeling this pangs of hunger, I want to go beyond it, so let me absorb myself in Krishna. So a little austerity can intensify our devotion. But if there is too much pain, too much austerity, then that consumes our consciousness.
And then it becomes very difficult to focus on Krishna. So the purpose of fasting is not so much to just deprive or torture the body. The purpose of fasting is to raise our consciousness to the spiritual level.
So that means when normally we seek gratification at the physical level now when that gratification doesn’t come, that causes some irritation, that causes some dissatisfaction. So then how do we tolerate that dissatisfaction? By forcing our consciousness to rise to the spiritual level. So imagine if you have a two-story building and we have no air conditioning at the ground level and the air conditioning is only at the first level.
Now if the atmosphere is comfortable at the ground level we may not need the air conditioning and we may not go to the first floor. The first floor effort is too much. Just stay here, it’s comfortable here.
But suppose it becomes unbearably hot at the ground level then we will, that heat will impel us to rise to the first level and then we’ll, oh this is a relief over here. So we can say that our existence like a two-level building the ground level is the material level of reality and the first level is the spiritual level of reality. So even while practising bhakti we normally stay at the material level of consciousness.
We are serving Krishna. Krishna is our goal but functionally we are still at the material level of consciousness. So sometimes at the material level when there is trouble when there is deprivation then it forces us to rise to the spiritual level.
There is so much agitation over here let me absorb myself in Krishna. And that’s how we experience the relief that comes by absorption in Krishna. So sometimes even if we decide to fast nirjana and ekadashi and then at that time we have good vibrant devotional activities sometimes we have kirtan, we have katha and then we may actually get so absorbed that we don’t even feel I was fasted.
Then we realise actually normally I can’t live without food but I was able to live for a whole day without food. That means I must have been getting some spiritual nourishment. And thus we get the conviction that the spiritual is for real.
The spiritual is for real that even without the physical I can live. How? That means I am getting nourishment from some higher level. So in that sense austerity impels us to rise to the spiritual level of consciousness.
But suppose it becomes so hot that I become dehydrated, I become de-energised I have no strength left to climb up the stairs also. And I just fall in exhaustion on the ground level itself. Then that heat is unbearable.
That heat doesn’t serve the purpose of taking us to the higher level. Similarly for us if the austerity becomes unbearable if you are fasting and we are just not able to bear it and the mind is food, food, food, food okay at that time instead of just having the mind craving for food, better take some food and then again start chanting. The point is not to torment the body the point is to focus the mind on Krishna.
So each of us has to find out what level of austerity works best for us. Normally we think austerity and comfort as opposite things. If we are living austerely then we are not living comfortable.
But we can say that there is we have to find out the level of austerity that is comfortable for us. The level of austerity that is comfortable for us. That means this is the level of austerity I can practise reasonably well.
Yeah I can fast maybe I can fast by taking one meal a day, one meal during the Ekadashi. Other times I can just take some fruits or something like that. Or I can just take fruits throughout the day.
Or I can just take water throughout the day. But it is, the austerity is comfortable means we are not too agitated by trying to do the austerity. It is a little discomfort but we can manage with it.
So the material and the spiritual are two distinct levels and we want to rise to the spiritual level. But in the path of Bhakti we don’t just need to leave the material to go to the spiritual. That is the path of Jnana.
In the path of Jnana we say the material and the spiritual are separate and therefore the material has to be given up so that we can rise to the spiritual. But the path of Bhakti is that the material and the spiritual both come from Krishna and therefore both can take us to Krishna. So the material can also be a path to Krishna.
Krishna tells Arjuna that through your work worship the Lord. Krishna, Arjuna’s archery was a service to Krishna. So whatever skills we have, whatever abilities we have we can use them to serve Krishna and that’s how we can go towards Krishna.
So Bhakti so we can say Bhakti is ultimately world transcending but intermediately Bhakti is also world engaging and world transforming. Bhakti is ultimately world transcending. We want to go towards Krishna.
That is the spiritual world. But Prabhupada said the temples he said our temples are in Vaikuntha. That means what has happened? They are world transforming.
Now how are the temples in Vaikuntha? Prabhupada explains that Prabhupada quotes this verse from the Puranas where Lord Narayana is telling Narada Muni Naaham Vasami Vaikunthe Yoginam Hridayeshiva Yatra Gayanti Madh Bhaktaha Tatra Tishtami Narada So there he says Naaham Vasami Vaikunthe Lord Narayana is telling Narada Muni I don’t reside in Vaikuntha Yoginam Hridayeshiva nor do I reside in the hearts of the yogis and where do I reside? Yatra Gayanti Madh Bhaktaha where my devotees chant my glories Tatra Tishtami Narada that is where I reside. Now does this statement literally mean that if you go to Vaikuntha you will find Vaikuntha is vacant and Lord Narayana is not there? No. Lord Narayana is definitely there in Vaikuntha and the yogis they meditate on the Lord in their heart Dhyana Vastita Tadgatena Manasa Pashyantiyam Yogino The yogis meditate on the Lord in the heart.
So this statement is rhetorical and the emphasis is okay the Lord is in Vaikuntha, the Lord is in the yogi’s heart but how is he accessible for us there? We can’t access him there but we can feel his presence where he is glorified Yatra Gayanti Madh Bhaktaha Tatra Tishtami Narada where the Lord is glorified, there we can perceive his presence. So as Prabhupada said the temples are in Vaikuntha what that means is that in the temples the glorification of the Lord is happening and because the glorification of the Lord is happening we can perceive his presence there and in that sense the temples are in Vaikuntha because the same presence of the Lord we can perceive there, we can also perceive over here as our consciousness becomes more and more tuned to glorifying and eventually when our heart starts glorifying Krishna more and more then our heart will become a temple because the progression of bhakti is we at first start by going to the temple, temple is the place of God’s residence and this is my home, this is my office then gradually we understand the temple is Krishna’s residence but I want my home also to be Krishna’s residence so we make a temple in our home and then as we advance further we understand that I want to make my heart also the home of Krishna so when we start practising bhakti and we cultivate devotional service attitude then Krishna starts manifesting consistently in our hearts, then our heart also becomes a temple so now here the point I was making is bhakti is world engaging and world transforming spirituality so we use the resources in the world for serving Krishna so with this understanding when a devotee as I said the topic I was speaking on is we cannot become pure devotees without becoming devotees devotee means one who is connected with Krishna one whose heart has affection and devotion for Krishna pure devotion means one whose heart has nothing except devotion for Krishna there is nothing else in the heart so how will we come to this level at the present level for all of us we have our bhakti as a very important part of our life, the purpose of our life but there are other aspects to our life also so when these other aspects are there say if we have some health issues, we have some relationship issues, we have some financial issues now these affect us, these affect us means that they agitate us, they distress us they consume our consciousness and if we start thinking this is material so I should not pray to Krishna about this then basically what will happen is these at present already occupy a large part of our heart and if we say I will not pray to Krishna anything about this then basically a large part of our heart will stay disconnected from Krishna, we can’t at this stage just get these out of our hearts, these things matter for us our health matters, our family matters, our finances matter and these because they matter to us so we can’t just get them out of our hearts so if we say I will not pray to Krishna anything about this then that means a large part of our heart will stay disconnected from Krishna and sometimes in trying to develop a pure devotional relationship our relationship may stay very abstract with Krishna it may be just oh you know Krishna, I am going to pray to him for pure love for Krishna but the only time I think of pure love for Krishna is when I come and pray to our pure love, all the other times I am thinking about this problem, that problem, that thing how do I deal with that so therefore we want a pure relationship with Krishna but we also want a real relationship with Krishna a real relationship means that relationship also incorporates the real concerns that we have in this world ultimately we can say that the real concern of the soul is to go back to Krishna, yes that is true but while we are in this world we also have many real concerns now if we consider, recently a devotee asked me, Narasimha Chaturdashi was there, that Prahlad Maharaj when he was in danger again and again he never prayed to Lord Narasimha Dev for help but Draupadi prayed to Lord Krishna for help so is it that Prahlad’s devotion is greater than Draupadi’s devotion whether you could twist it around and you could say that the Pandavas fought for Krishna the Kauravas were the enemies and the Pandavas fought for Krishna to remove Adharma from the world but Prahlad did not fight for Narasimha Dev Prahlad did not fight against Hiranyakashipu so does that mean that Prahlad was simply taking service from the Lord whereas the Pandavas were doing service to the Lord and therefore the Pandavas are greater devotees than Prahlad so by one analysis we could say that Prahlad is a greater devotee than Draupadi but another analysis we can say that the Pandavas are greater devotees than Prahlad so I explained that actually each devotee has a personal relationship with Krishna and each devotee is in a particular situation and through each devotee Krishna teaches a particular lesson so Prahlad Maharaj embodies the principle of smaranam there are nine limbs of devotional service and the Bhagavatam explains that each of these limbs can lead to perfection so Prahlad Maharaj personifies the limb of smaranam just absorb yourself in the remembrance of the Lord and there is nothing more that we need to do circumstantially also we can say Prahlad is just a five year old boy he is not in a body in which he can fight with a demon on top of them it is his father how can he fight against his father a father is a respectable person but circumstantially there can be various issues there is no description in the Bhagavatam that Prahlad at that time had learned warfare Shanda and Amarka who were his teachers they were teaching in politics this is your friend this is your enemy this is how you destroy your enemies but there is no description that he learned warfare so normally we don’t see Prahlad with any weapons fighting so Prahlad is demonstrating a particular principle of devotion he is demonstrating the principle of perfection through absorption through remembrance and he is doing that perfectly so we don’t have to compare and Draupadi now when she is in great danger it is not just her life that is in danger it is her honour that is in danger and at that time she naturally prays to Krishna for protection so her husband cannot protect her so she prays and that through that incident there is another principle being demonstrated the principle that is being demonstrated through Draupadi’s pastime is that even when we have many protectors in this world ultimately it is Krishna alone who is our protector so how at that time when our worldly protectors can’t protect us we don’t resent them we don’t reject them but we take shelter of Krishna that is what is being demonstrated and how when a devotee takes shelter of Krishna Krishna does protect so Prahlad demonstrates you could say absorption in Krishna and Krishna protecting whereas Draupadi demonstrates you could say exclusive shelter of Krishna no other shelter except Krishna now on the other hand Pandavas you consider among them the Pandavas overall are in Sakhiras with Krishna Arjuna is primal in Sakhiras so now Arjuna’s mood is as a friend he wants to assist his friend so for Arjuna sometimes Krishna helps Arjuna, sometimes Arjuna helps Krishna of course ultimately nobody can help God but the mood of the relationship is such that so Arjuna wants to serve Krishna and he fights on Krishna’s behalf and so much so that Krishna becomes now it is not just that Prahlad is taking service Arjuna is taking service on Krishna he asks Krishna to become his charioteer so a friendship means it is visibly reciprocal it is visibly reciprocal that Krishna serves Arjuna and Arjuna serves Krishna of course there is a dynamic that Krishna is still God and when Krishna reveals in the 11th chapter his Vishwaroopa so initially Krishna identifies, Krishna tells actually in the 11th chapter the interesting dynamic is there first in the fourth verse Arjuna requests Krishna if it is possible O Lord please show me your universal form please show me your form O Lord and then from verses 5 to 8 in the 11th chapter Krishna describes to Arjuna what I am going to show you because universal form is so extraordinary you may not be able to make sense of it suppose we go to somebody’s house and they have some very special painting then before it is covered by a curtain before they remove the curtain they tell what is this painting so that we can make sense of it so verses 5 to 8 Krishna describes to Arjuna what I am going to show then verses 10 to 13 verse 9 describes Krishna reveals and then 9 to 13 describes Sanjay telling Dhritharashtra what Krishna has revealed and then from verses 15 to verse 32 Arjuna describes what I am seeing the same Vishwaroopa is described in three ways Krishna’s self description Sanjay’s third person description that is what is happening over there and Arjuna’s second person description this is how I am seeing so now in the second verse itself when Arjuna sees the Vishwaroopa he identifies O Lord you who are the lord of the universe I see your universal form but then as the universal form the revelation keeps moving forward Krishna also tells Arjuna that I am showing you something which I have never shown before I am going to show you something which I have never shown before now in a sense Krishna has shown the Vishwaroopa to Yashodamayi shown the whole universe in her mouth in his mouth he has shown the Vishwaroopa also to Duryodhana at the time of the when he had gone as Shantidoot so then why is he saying that I am going to show you something which has never been shown before that is because Krishna shows Arjuna some feature that he has not shown before and that feature is the Kaalaroopa Kaalaroopa is featured as the all devouring destroyer of everything so as Arjuna starts seeing that the 11th chapter is fascinating now suppose say we are watching we are just flipping idly through our TV and watching some movie and it seems to be like a nice romantic movie entertaining high drama and suddenly it turns out to be a horror movie what is happening? All kind of destruction is happening and the next moment we see the horror is not just somewhere out there it is our own house that is being destroyed hey what is going on over here so what happens to Arjuna is first he is seeing Vishwaroopa magnificent form then he sees the Kaalaroopa fierce eyes unbearable to see fire coming from the mouth seems very destructive and then suddenly he starts seeing that that the soldiers and the generals on the army itself are getting destroyed they are all going into the mouth so initially he is Vismaya astonishment but then afterwards Bhayamcha Pravattitam Manome he becomes very fearful and then eventually he asks Krishna Akhyahimeko Bhavanu Graroopo I am asking you who are you you know so now in Sanskrit there is the normal second person and there is a respectful second person like Hindi we may say Tu or Aap Kaisa hai tu? Aap kaise ho? so it is a more respectful form of address so initially when Krishna and Arjuna are relating they are friends so even when Krishna surrenders to Arjuna he says Prachami Twam Dharma Samboodh Chit so Twam is like Tu the normal second person reference so he says I am surrendering to you but when he sees this Vishwaroop he says Akhyahimeko Bhavanu Graroopo Aap kaun ho? so he is just scared what is this form? I can’t understand this sometimes we call someone Tu kaun hai? Aap kaun ho? Laughing Laughing Laughing so if we understand that person is very respectable it will change our mood so like that what happens to Arjuna is who is this fearsome form? so now it is interesting he has already identified he has already identified that this is Vishwaroop but then he changes that and he says who are you? if you already know this is Vishwaroop then why is he asking who are you? and Akhyahimeko Bhavanu Graroopo Nahi Janaami I don’t understand what is your intention? why is this fire coming out of your mouth? why is everybody being devoured? so it is interesting now Krishna doesn’t say I am Krishna Krishna doesn’t even say I am Vishwaroop how does he identify himself? Kaalosmi Lokakshayakrut Pravratho so in 11.32 he says time I am the destroyer of the worlds so the time feature is what Krishna has not shown to anyone before the Vishwaroop itself he has shown but within the Vishwaroop there is the Kaalaroopa which Krishna has never shown to anyone he shows for the first time over here so the Kaalaroopa when he shows Arjuna is scared by what kind of form is this? suppose you know we think we know somebody and we are talking with them and suddenly they talk normally and suddenly they start talking in German fluent German who are you? we just see a feature of that person we have never seen before and they are giving commands you know go and do this attack this are you some German spy who is here? infiltrated in my family who are you? so basically Arjuna asks who are you? so the point I am making here is that Krishna and Arjuna had a reciprocal relationship and Arjuna knew Krishna is God but Arjuna forgot that and in that relationship Arjuna served Krishna and Krishna served Arjuna both of them were friends so each devotee has a distinctive relationship with Krishna and it is not that one devotee is higher and another devotee is lower subjectively different devotees may feel different way so when Yudhishthira hears about Prahlad’s glories he says oh Prahlad is so fortunate and lord Narasimhadev himself came to protect him and Narada says actually Pandavas you are so fortunate that lord Narasimhadev came protected and left but lord Krishna stays in your house itself that the lord stays in your house you are so fortunate so the devotees may have the subjective feelings but objectively we understand that all devotees are very great exalted so we don’t have to differentiate the material level oh this devotee didn’t ask for protection this devotee asked for protection this devotee simply prayed, this devotee actually served no each devotee has a particular relationship with Krishna in that relationship they serve so similarly for us each one of us is in a particular position of course all these devotees are very exalted and we are still sadhakas but still each one of us has a particular position and in our situation we don’t separate the material and the spiritual we focus on using the material in the service of the spiritual, in the service of Krishna so yes at one level we should separate the material and the spiritual in terms of say the time I need to have some time for my spiritual life, I need to have some time to go to the temple I need to have time to go to satsang programmes and then I have my time for job I have to help my family so in that sense from a perspective by which we do give time for direct spiritual activities we separate but beyond that we don’t have to really separate everything it’s not that before doing each activity we have to think oh is this material or is this spiritual you know if a mother and the child is crying am I taking care of the child am I doing material activity or spiritual activity just take care of the child isn’t it so ultimately what is material and what is spiritual actually anything that is done in a mood of service is spiritual anything done in a mood of self gratification is material if you are meeting someone and if you are thinking what can this person do for me then that is material consciousness if you are interacting with someone you can think what can I do for this person how can I serve this person then that is spiritual consciousness so ultimately spiritual and material are matters of consciousness and if you are doing your job in a mood of service if you are taking care of family responsibilities in a mood of service then that is also spiritual somebody may be giving a class speaking about Krishna but while speaking about Krishna they may be thinking that there are some people who do Bhagwat katha but it’s a business for them they earn money by doing Bhagwat katha then is that material or is that spiritual well if they are just seeing it primarily as a profession so there is one story that is told about how there was a sometimes there was Bhagwat kathakars they mix a lot of material and spiritual so the Bhagwat kathakar was giving you should never eat potatoes, potatoes are tamasic and he spoke a lot about how we have to protect our consciousness and then after that on that day after the prasada day potato sabji was there so they did not serve this preacher potato sabji give me sabji no no you said potato is tamasic let the preacher’s potato be in the preacher keep the potato of the lecture give me potato so some people so some people separate the material for them they are speaking about Krishna but actually they are not living that way so then their speaking of Krishna Krishna also becomes a performance it becomes almost a profession and that may not be spiritual it is not done with the service attitude so essentially anything that is done with the attitude of service that is spiritual anything that is done with the attitude of self gratification that is material so when we are trying to serve Krishna now at this stage our body, our family our finances we are all using them ultimately for the service of Krishna so we need a direct connection with Krishna by doing direct devotional activity by chanting the holy names by going to the temple but the others are not disconnected from Krishna they are also connected with Krishna and we don’t have to separate them so if a devotee has if a devotee has some health issues can the devotee pray to Krishna please help me recover from this now can a devotee pray you know I mean you cannot put a law on you can’t pray praying is good praying is always good but it is interesting that in bhakti the very idea of prayer is different from prayer in karmakand karmakand and religiosity in karmakand prayer is primarily a tool for getting things done oh god I want this I don’t have the power to do it but you have the power so please do it for me prayer in karmakand is primarily a tool for getting things done whereas in bhakti if you see the prayers which we sing brahma samhita many of us have memorised or recite the brahma samhita the whole prayer is govindam adi purusham tam aham bhajami there is no asking anything at all and the conclusion is how wonderful the spiritual world is so that the whole mood of prayer is simply glorification there is no asking anything and if you consider the nine limbs of devotional service one of them is vandanam shranam kirtanam vishnu smaranam padasevanam archanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atmanivedanam so here we see prayer is also a limb like shranam or kirtanam now when we hear about krishna or we speak about krishna is hearing and speaking about krishna a tool for getting something done we hear about krishna so that we can learn more about krishna we speak about krishna so that others can learn more about krishna of course by speaking also we will also learn more about krishna but kalarmar himself says what are these iti pumsar pitavishnu bhaktish chena navalakshana kriyeta bhagvaty adha tan manyendita muthamam he says these nine are ways in which we offer our devotion to krishna and if we offer our devotion to krishna in this way our attraction to krishna will increase so here what krishna is saying that these nine limbs of bhakti are to be performed to express our devotion and to increase our attraction whatever devotion we have we express it to krishna and we also increase our attraction towards him by doing these activities so that means the in bhakti we see praying also as a means of connection not a means of getting something done so that’s why if we redefine prayer in this way prayer is a way of connecting with krishna then now i said earlier say this is our heart and in which there are many concerns say worldly concerns which are occupying a heavy place in our heart and of course krishna is also here in our heart we want to practise bhakti now if we see prayer primarily as a means of connecting with krishna then whatever is in our heart if we connect that with krishna then our heart will connect with krishna so if my health is a major issue if my job is a major anxiety for me if the relationships are a major issue for me at that time i go and pray to krishna about this krishna please let my health improve krishna please let this relationship become more stable please let this job be stable i pray for that then what is happening i am connecting more with krishna because otherwise that part of my heart will stay disconnected with krishna now while connecting so if it connects us more with krishna then it is favourable to our bhakti then we can do it there are two cautions however over here one caution is that we go to krishna we should not go to krishna only for these concerns when i was staying in pune next to the temple old temple which we had there is a school quite a materialistic school and it is in the month of may throughout the year this children would never come to the temple but in the month of may they would come to the temple so is the month of may the producer of bhakti no what would happen may is the month of exams oh god please pass me in this exam so if we go to krishna only for these things like some parents the children are going to college or working somewhere else staying far away they never call their parents the only time they call their parents is mummy can you give me some money can you give me some money the parents love their child and the parents may give the money also but the child calls the parent only to ask for money then that is a very utilitarian relationship that is not a very fulfilling relationship so if we go to krishna only when there are problems and only for solving the problems for getting the problem solved then that is not good so we practise sadhana bhakti diligently irrespective of whatever problems are there and if some problems come they may also be a means by which we can intensify our connection with krishna if i pray to krishna, krishna please you know give me pure love i can pray but there may not be much intensity but if i have a serious disease and i pray at that time, krishna please relieve me from this disease, there will be intensity in that prayer so the bhagavatam also gives akamah sarvakamoha mokshapamudarati theevrena bhakti yogena yajeta purushampara so theevrena, intensely practise bhakti so therefore if we can connect with krishna in any way that connection is always favourable but if we connect with krishna only for material things then it is a problem then we are keeping the connection at a very utility level and the second issue is many devotees they are afraid to pray to krishna i think if i pray to krishna for this thing and if krishna doesn’t give this thing then i will lose my faith in krishna so better not pray to krishna only well, that is a very skewed understanding of things because if i am not praying to krishna at all and i am thinking if i pray, i don’t get, i lose my faith that means what is happening that we are actually half trusting krishna we are trusting krishna’s power but not trusting krishna’s intelligence krishna i need this to be done, i can’t do it and i know you are more powerful than me i have trust that you have the power to do this but krishna, i think you don’t know what exactly to do so i will tell you to do it so it is we are forming a partnership with krishna and the terms of the partnership are krishna your power, my brains this is the problem and i know the solution but i just can’t do it i have this relationship issue if only this person will change everything will be alright i can’t change them so krishna you please change them so what are we doing over here we are actually trusting krishna krishna you have the power but you don’t have the intelligence if we fully trust krishna that means we also trust that krishna has a better plan for us than whatever we are planning, actually everyone wants to serve god what do you think, everyone wants to serve god even atheists want to serve god but atheists want to serve god as an advisor as an advisor why don’t you do this, why don’t you do that why don’t you do that actually speaking, we are meant to serve krishna as servants, not as advisors so therefore so the point i am making is when we pray to krishna we pray primarily for the connection but along with the connection we may pray, krishna please if this problem gets solved, i can practise bhakti so much better but if that problem is not solved we don’t give up our devotion then we pray to krishna, krishna please give me the intelligence to understand how to serve you in this situation what is the best prayer we can offer to krishna so he said pray to krishna that always give me the strength to serve you that means if this situation gets rectified, i will be able to serve you better but if it is not rectified then please give me the strength to serve you in this situation also so therefore we pray to krishna as a means of connecting with him and something is burdening our heart then we can talk about that to krishna and i said we have to first become devotees then become pure devotees that means first become devotees means connect our heart with krishna so sometimes if we have a big problem burdening us and somebody just hears us out they may offer no solution but just their hearing us out makes us feel understood and decreases the burden a little bit so then even if they don’t solve the problem for us we feel connected with them if you heard me out just by speaking to someone we feel actually closer to that person similarly if we speak our heart to krishna that will also help us feel closer to krishna the problem comes sometimes because when we speak a problem to our counsellor or mentor and then we also know this problem they also don’t have the power to solve it, if we have a difficult boss if we have a difficult relationship health issues, we also know they don’t have the power to solve it so therefore we don’t have much expectation we expect from them just you should hear but what happens with krishna is that we know krishna is god, he is all powerful so because he is infinite sometimes our expectations from him also become infinite krishna you can solve this problem so why are you not solving it so in every relationship there is contribution and there is expectation and what happens is if we understand the other person is limited then our expectation from them also become limited but because krishna is limited our expectation from him also sometimes become unlimited but then the whole basis of maturity in a relationship is if we consider a child child is small at that time from the child’s perspective there is very little contribution in the relationship there is only expectation child cries and expects the mother to come and feed the child, the parents to take care of the child but as the child starts growing up child understands that I can’t just have expectation I also want to make contribution I have to study, I have to do my responsibilities as the child grows up then if the father has a business the child will say I will also help in the business child takes up more and more responsibility so maturity in the relationship means that we increase our contribution and decrease our expectation similarly how do we become pure devotees pure devotees means we increase our contribution in our relationship with Krishna and decrease our expectation as a normal relationship there is reciprocation there is contribution, there is expectation but pure devotion doesn’t mean that we don’t connect the things that are important to us towards Krishna but rather our connection does not depend on these things so Bhaktivinoda Thakur in the mood of pure devotion says my dear lord whether I have prosperity or I have adversity I am still devoted to you so the mood of pure devotion is my relationship with your Krishna is not dependent on material things but at the same time material things are required for serving Krishna in this world so therefore if those material things are there then I will use them in Krishna’s service so we may pray for the material things also if they help us in service to Krishna but we don’t become so attached to them we don’t make our relationship with Krishna dependent on those material things dependent on our prayer being fulfilled we serve Krishna irrespective of what happens so first our focus at this stage should simply be on connection with Krishna let’s connect as much of our life as possible with Krishna and then as we connect more and more of our life with Krishna then by that connection there will be purification and as that purification takes place then we will be able to have a pure devotional relationship with Krishna, I’ll conclude with one example sometimes some devotees say if I have some talent, if I use that talent to serve Krishna I’ll become proud, see if I can sing nicely if I sing nicely and then everybody praises me I’ll become proud, therefore I’ll not sing for Krishna only, I’ll not sing as to think that by singing I’ll become proud and by not singing I’ll stay humble, it might seem ok good logic but it’s not good actually think that we will become proud by singing is to already be proud how? because I’m thinking I’m not proud right now is it? to think that I’m not proud is also a sign of pride it’s a simple example could be say lust it’s not that everybody has lust within them but if there is no object then it will not trigger the lust within us, the object comes it triggers the lust so of course we are all meant to control the lust within us, similarly pride, it’s not that we don’t have pride right now, we have pride but we have no reason to express the pride, I have not done anything special so I can’t express my pride so it’s not that when I do something I become proud, rather it is when I do something special I’ll express my pride but if I don’t do something special, the pride is not going to go away, the pride will come in a perverse way can I have some water? this bottle has it there’s a bottle in that bag so if somebody sings very nicely then after they get an opportunity to become proud, somebody says I’ll not sing but then somebody else sings nicely and then we become envious of them you know somebody else sings very nicely and other devotees glorify them oh you know he sings so nicely she sings so nicely what will happen? that pride inside us will come out as envy, somebody says she sings so nicely do you see how much they eat? so what will happen? we will not be able to tolerate their glorification, we’ll try to minimise so actually the cure for pride the cure for pride is not suppression of talent it is purification of intent how will my pride go away? I’ll sing for Krishna or if I’m speaking, I’ll speak for Krishna now there may be, I also want praise I also want appreciation but gradually if I keep speaking about Krishna, if I keep singing for Krishna, over a period of time I’ll start seeing that the praise from others it gives some satisfaction but it is so short lived, if I just sing about Krishna, if I speak about Krishna that gives me so much absorption and the satisfaction from that is far greater and therefore I want that satisfaction if others praise me it’s ok, I’ll accept that as a mode of service seeing that Krishna is using me in a service but the real taste will come when I’m absorbed in Krishna, but if I don’t sing about Krishna only, I don’t speak about Krishna, I’ll never taste that absorption so just because our motive is impure that doesn’t mean we should not do a service so even if my motive is impure start doing the service, it’s not that we do the service only to aggravate the impure motive, we don’t do the service simply that everybody will praise me, we have a part which may want some praise but we also have a part which wants to glorify Krishna and gradually that part which wants to glorify Krishna will become stronger and stronger so just as in every other service, we can’t start with full purity we start with whatever level of purity we have and we do the service and purity will come gradually similarly with respect to praying we can’t pray only purely we can pray the way we are and gradually purity will come so in this way we will learn we will go to pure devotion by going towards devotion so actually I got the inspiration to speak this topic because of Kirti Radhika Mataji we were just coming along and we were singing a prayer to Lord Narasimhadev so she asked, if we are travelling we pray to Narasimhadev we say we should not pray for our body for material things, so when we are travelling on a journey, are we praying for a material thing or a spiritual thing so I said I’ll answer in the class so so I hope you got the answer so yes, when we are travelling and we pray we sing Narasimharti it is for both the body and the soul the body is needed for serving for the soul to go towards Krishna so therefore we pray for the body and we pray for the soul, we pray not only that the body be physically protected, but during the journey our consciousness be protected also there are so many temptations in the world Ajay Ambedkar has gone out once and he saw something and his whole life got disrupted, so even during a journey, there can be physical danger, there can be spiritual danger also, so you want to pray to Lord Narasimhadev for protection from all kinds of dangers and in that way, we include our whole life in devotion even if our whole life is not filled with purity right now and by including our whole life in the scope of devotion gradually, purity will encompass our whole life also so I will summarise I spoke today on the topic of, we can’t become pure devotees without becoming devotees so I started by talking about how if we approach God in a very utilitarian way then it becomes a business, religion simply becomes a business, where we try to bargain with God and that is not at all recommended, that is Karmakand so the Acharyas talk about pure devotion, where we serve Krishna for loving him at the same time there is we can’t separate the body and the soul, they are all one unit and we serve Krishna holistically if we apply a material conception then we may differentiate even among devotees, so is Prahlad a greater devotee than Draupadi or is the Pandavas a greater devotee than Prahlad no, each of them is serving according to their situation through Prahlad the Lord demonstrates the potency of remembrance through Draupadi the Lord demonstrates the potency of exclusive shelter, through the Pandavas, through Arjuna he demonstrates the principle of serving in friendship, Sakya so in that I talk about the Vishwaroopa elaborately how there are various flavours in the relationship so initially fraternal, then reverential and then again fraternal so basically when in Karmakand prayer is seen as a means to get something done from God whereas in Bhakti prayer is seen primarily as a means of connection so just as we feel connected with a person who just hears out our problems even if they can’t solve it similarly if we just unburden our heart to Krishna then we feel connected with him so at present a lot of material things do consume our heart our health, family, finances so if we say I will not connect them with Krishna then heart will stay disconnected from Krishna so when we connect them with Krishna when we pray to Krishna for them what happens? our heart will become more connected with him and if we connect with Krishna only for dealing with these issues or if we stop connecting with Krishna just because these problems are not dealt with the way we want them to then again that will interrupt our devotion so we connect with Krishna through regular Sadhana Bhakti and also more intensely when we have some particular issues that are troubling us and we stay connected with Krishna even if the prayer is not answered because the real answer to the prayer is not just the specific solution that we want the real answer to the prayer is the deepened connection with Krishna because that is going to take us beyond all problems ultimately so rather than trying to separate everything material and spiritual we see that anything that is done with the attitude of service is spiritual anything that is done with the attitude of self gratification is material so we want to elevate our understanding of our self interest from thinking that the interest of the body is my interest or the interest of the mind is my interest serving Krishna is my ultimate interest so initially we see our interest and Krishna’s interest as the opposite but gradually we see them intersecting and we will see ultimately our interest as a subset of Krishna’s interest so till we come even if we feel we have some separate interest we connect them with Krishna and we can’t go to purity without going through impurity so I will glorify Krishna initially with the desire for praise but as I keep glorifying Krishna slowly I will realise that through the glorification I don’t get much satisfaction through the absorption that I get more satisfaction that’s how when I start glorifying Krishna simply for the absorption for the glorification, for the absorption so just as in other services it’s only through impurity that we will go towards purity similarly in prayer also it is through mixed prayer that we will go towards pure prayer so rather than thinking that I should be only purely devoted and having a very hypothetical relationship with Krishna we can connect with Krishna as we are in a real way and through the study practise of sadhana bhakti go from devotion towards pure devotion thank you very much Hare Krishna so are there any questions or comments so you are talking about bhakti versus worship as a phenomenon and using prayer as a tool and taking the example of demigod worship versus prayer to Krishna now if we think of demigod worship as a lot of people do it means to ask something is it not spiritual at all is it purely material you just mentioned that consciousness where we are asking something so if somebody worship a devatas with a selfless mood so is that purely not spiritual and then could you differentiate between the word ok so somebody prays to the devatas purely is that material or can it be spiritual by the way I have nowadays stopped using the word demigod because many people find it very they feel as if we are minimising the devatas and another thing is many people associate the word demigod with demon and sometimes we speak it in such a way also don’t worship the demigods since almost we minimise and trivialise the demigods so much people start thinking that are we talking about demigods as demons or what so if we are with Indians Indians just simply use the word devata it’s a perfectly acceptable word and Srila Prabhupada used the word demigod fundamentally to differentiate between Krishna but then he also used the word supreme personality of Godhead now how often in a normal conversation do you use the word supreme personality of Godhead all the time so if we use supreme personality of Godhead and we use demigod then the differentiation is clear we are not talking about we are not minimising but you just use Krishna and then we use the demigod it becomes a little jarring for people so now as far as the worship of the devatas is concerned there are many many devotees who worship the devatas also purely there are just in the south India there are Alwars who worship who are the worshippers of Vishnu and similarly I think there are Nambas there are other group of great saints who are actually considered worshippers of Shiva and they have also written songs if you see them they are songs of pure devotion so it is conceptually possible that somebody may worship the devatas also with a pure motive however it is rare Srila Prabhupada gives the example that normally if somebody goes to a liquor bar it is to drink now somebody might go to a alcoholics to give up alcohol also but liquor bar is not usually the place to do that you will do that elsewhere so in the tradition the worship of the devatas is for those people who are materialistically minded some people by their tradition by their culture may be worshipping devatas and somehow they may also be very pure hearted so worship of devatas can also be done with a pure intention now will that be spiritual here we have to differentiate between purity and spirituality just purity alone is not spirituality a mother may love her child very purely so I just love you I don’t want to expect anything from you but just because the love is pure doesn’t necessarily make it spiritual spiritual is when there is concern for the soul and there is elevation of the soul that is involved so simply so purity is good as compared to self centred relationship pure relationship is much better but still purity and spirituality are not the same thing spirituality is when the soul is involved and some elevation of the soul is involved so the worship of the devatas if it is done with a pure intention then it is conducive for spiritual growth it is itself not spiritual it is itself because devatas are material posts and they themselves cannot liberate people from the material world directly so in that sense one may not directly move towards self realisation by the worship of devatas however it’s possible that the worship that one does the selflessness with which one does it that all makes one very ready and receptive for spirituality having said this there is also a whole different paradigm that with what conception is somebody worshipping the devata broadly Vishwanath Chakrakur says there are four different conceptions in which one can worship devata one is that one may see the devata as a representation of the brahman one can consider that ultimately the brahman is the supreme reality and all gods are simply faces of the brahman that’s one way and then whichever god you worship that’s your choice but ultimately we have to merge in brahman so that is almost impersonalism the technical word for that is henotheism h-e-n-o-t-h-e-i-s-m henotheism is worship of god heno means any form henotheism means that you worship god in whichever form you want till ultimately you go beyond the form to the impersonal world that could be one conception another conception is that that god itself is supreme and other god is subordinate to him so some devotees may think that particular devata is supreme and even Vishnu is subordinate to them that is another understanding a third understanding could be that these devatas are departmental heads and for this particular thing I will pray to them the fourth understanding could be that these devatas are also devotees of the lord and they can bless me with devotion so devotees we have lord Shiva we have lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu when he would go on pilgrimage he would even go to he went to Bhuvaneshwar Ambulinga Bhuvaneshwar Kapoteshwar so he went to Kheerchor Gopinath Darshan Sukhiyati Bhaktivinoda Thakur has written glorified lord Chaitanya with gauranga name so there he says he went to Kheerchor Gopinath temple he went to Gopal temple he also went to Ambulinga Bhuvaneshwar Kapoteshwar he went to Bhuvaneshwar where the Bhuvaneshwar temple is there Kapoteshwar is also the name of lord Shiva he went to those temples also there is also a whole song called Shivashtakam which is attributed to lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu where he is glorifying lord Shiva where he is glorifying lord Shiva how exalted he is and how exalted a devotee of lord Krishna he is lord Vishnu he is so if somebody is worshipping in the fourth mood then then actually their pure worship of the devata can actually help them to grow spiritually also so basically they treat the devata like a guru at that time who is guiding us towards the supreme lord so that’s why we don’t have to become very judgemental that only the worship of Krishna can be pure and the worship of devatas can’t be pure people can worship with purity and people can be having various conceptions while worshipping the devata and if they are worshipping purely then they can be more even if they are not spiritual right now they can be much more receptive to spirituality in future when they move towards Krishna now as far as the difference between bhakti and worship is concerned first of all there are words in different languages and each word has its own connotation so if you want to consider say bhakti and puja if you want to say worship it means puja or aarti aarti is a particular ritual within the puja we use aarti of the lord of course the word aarti can be used in a different sense also to encompass the whole thing but I would say that aarti and puja are all one limb of bhakti they are a part of archanam or primarily archanam or even vandanam you could say primarily archanam but bhakti has various limbs to it so bhakti is much bigger and bhakti can be expressed in various ways and aarti and puja are one way of expressing bhakti having said that shila prabhupada sometimes differentiates when he says that you can worship many people somebody may worship a king, somebody may worship a four star but ultimately devotion is meant for the supreme lord devotion is meant for the supreme lord so he is making a difference between between the attitude with which we approach the supreme lord and the attitude with which we approach any other person now of course in today’s world people may also use the word rashtra bhakti or matra bhakti or pitra bhakti and for chaitanya mahaprabhu also the word matra bhakti is used he is called as matra bhaktashi romani the greatest of those who are devoted to the mother that’s why it is the mother’s request to decide not to go to vrindavan but he came to jagannathpur instead so i would say that rather than getting caught too much in words we can focus on concepts the words may be may have specific use not have specific use, the concept is that the way in which you approach the lord is categorically different from the way in which you approach anyone else and the lord is the supreme being and others may have various levels of powers but they are not supreme ok thank you yes when duryodhana saw the vishwaroop of krishna and he knew krishna was on the pandavas side, he said why did he choose to fight against krishna because his defiance was so great that he somehow believed that when krishna showed the vishwaroop, it was just a magic show he in fact he in fact tells that he is so confident we could say arrogant or confident that he is going to win the war he thinks it will not even be a contest i have 11 akshahunis, they have only 7 and we are going to win so easily so he said in order to make sure that we have a good fight he actually sent the son of shakuni the previous night before the war starts with an inflammatory message for everyone bheema you think you are so powerful i reduce you to a cook arjuna you think you are so powerful i reduce you to eunuch and he insults everyone and in that way he wants to incite everyone to fight so at that time he sent a message to krishna krishna you dazzled everyone by showing a magical form lets see what form you can show on the battlefield i can also show many magical forms your magical form will not help in the war, in the war i am going to fight and i am going to win so basically because he was so defiant, see ultimately we all are driven by our desires and if a particular desire is very strong, we will reinterpret the whole reality in such a way that we will reinforce our desire okay that not to like there is an american comedian who says you know i have already made up my mind don’t confuse me with the facts so how have you made up the mind if you don’t know the facts, no i have already made up my mind, so duryodhana had already made up his mind i am going to fight the pandavas and i am going to get the kingdom that krishna is god, forget the fact don’t confuse me with the fact so even when he got the evidence that krishna is god, still he said no krishna is not god, this is simply some mystic performance, this is simply some mystical or magical show and this is not going to help in the battlefield okay, thank you this is a common argument krishna is in our hearts, why do we need to pray to him at all yes it is true at one level, it is a matter of mood that way we can even argue that why do we need to chant krishna’s name why do we need to praise krishna krishna is there in our hearts, he sees our devotional mood, he hears our devotional glorification within but the whole idea is our devotee wants to use all the resources that we have for connecting with krishna so if you have speech, we use the speech to connect with krishna we want to glorify krishna in this world also that the world knows his glories so krishna is in our hearts so i would say that both moods are perfectly fine that whichever mood connects us more with krishna so there was one devotee who was in mumbai and at that time maybe many years ago 15-20 years ago there was a series of bomb blasts in mumbai and then there was riots that took place, so this devotee had gone for a programme he was coming back from the programme and suddenly he saw a group of religious rioters and they saw that he is from they came charging towards him and he just ran and somehow he ran, ran, ran he managed to hide somewhere and he survived then he went to his spiritual master and he asked him you know i had just gone to that programme and in that programme i spoke you are not the body you are the soul but as soon as my body was threatened i ran so what is this he said that no you are using your body to serve krishna so protecting the body is a natural human impulse so somebody might decide that ok if krishna wants to protect me, krishna will protect me and they may not run no i am not meant to demand service from krishna if i have the ability to run i should run so we don’t demand like that from krishna that he intervene miraculously to protect us if we can do something we should do something on our own way so the spiritual master told him that if somebody has the mood that they are conscious of krishna let krishna protect me if he wants that is also fine somebody wants to run thinking this body i am going to use to serve krishna and i am not yet pure now i don’t want to die now i want to become more purified so that is also fine so it is we can’t stereotype that this is devotion and this is not devotion whichever is favourable for us to enhance our devotion that is the best for us thank you so we will stop here thank you very much shloka shloka shloka shloka shloka hari bo hari bo