Effective Leadership of spiritual communities
I was asked to speak on the topic of effective leadership.
So I'll speak this in two main parts. First I'll talk about the history of ISKCON a little bit in terms of what was the evolving role of leadership in ISKCON and then I'll talk something from the broader tradition and the contemporary situation. ISKCON started in a very unusual setting.
Unusual in many different ways. I'll talk about three main different ways. First is that the gap between the leader and the followers was huge.
Gap in terms of age, culture, spiritual advancement, spiritual knowledge, all of it. Practically the history of religions, there have been very few other organisations, if any, where the gap between the two was so great. So in general, in any religious organisation, the founder has to be a charismatic person who is able to inspire a lot of people.
And one challenge with such a charismatic founder is, or one problem with organisations that have started with a charismatic founder is that many of them don't sustain after the founder departs. Because people are attracted by that particular leader. And after that leader goes, things just don't continue.
So Prabhupada recognised that this is what happened with Gaudiya Mata. And therefore he decided to act to prevent that possibility right from the beginning. And right in the 1970 itself, barely five years after ISKCON had started, four years only, 1965 Prabhupada went to America, 1960 ISKCON was incorporated.
So Prabhupada appointed the governing body commission. And he from that time onwards started delegating authority. And if we look at the history of the movement, from 1971 onwards more or less, Prabhupada started spending most of his time in India.
He would go on world tours. And whenever he would go on world tours, he would inspire devotees a lot by that. But he made his base in India.
And there are multiple reasons for it. One is, he said that his spiritual master had told him to preach in the west. And he had done that.
But he felt that if there has to be a stronghold, a foundation or a headquarters for bhakti, that has to be in India. Because India still has a spiritual culture. And he found that his western disciples were finding it very difficult to deal with Indians.
The devotees had earned a nickname there called Damn Cheap Babu. Damn Cheap Babu means what? The devotees would often go to Indian markets and they would compare rates with American rates or UK rates. It was very cheap.
And they would think, we got a very good bargain. But actually the Indians, they would have sold them at 10 times more price or something like that. So, in general in the western world, there is not so much the concept of bargaining.
You are going to buy at a fixed price and you take it. So, the devotees had very practical difficulties. So, Prabhupada focused in India on building temples.
Big temples, he put his energy into that. And he started working primarily on establishing that foundation in India. And he let his western disciples do the preaching in the west.
America was the main headquarter at that time. And at one level in principle, Prabhupada emphasised following the instruction of the spiritual master. In practise, Prabhupada gave a lot of freedom for creativity, for resourcefulness, for coming up with new approaches to doing outreach.
So, the whole point was that Prabhupada's followers had youth and energy. And Prabhupada channelled it very constructively. So, at one time, after the GBC, soon after the GBC had been formulated, the GBC met and they decided that we will centralise the finances of ISKCON.
They felt that we will have one committee and they appointed one devotee who had some credentials in finance, some chartered accountancy, something like that. And then they centralised everything. And Prabhupada came to know about it.
He was so upset that he first sent a letter to all the temple presidents saying that the GBC has been suspended. And till further instruction, you just receive direct instructions from me. And he told the GBC that your centralisation business will not work.
He said that the purpose of the authorities, any authority in a community, is primarily to inspire the spirit of service among the people. To inspire the spirit of service. A letter he wrote to Mukunda Maharaj, Mukunda Prabhu at that time.
He said, this is what our leadership should do. Ultimately, everyone in our movement is voluntary. Is a volunteer.
Even those who are devoted full-time. Those who are working full-time in the temple also. As brahmacharis or whatever.
They're there only. They can leave at any time they want. There's only a limited amount of force that you can apply on anyone.
And Prabhupada, sometimes because he was so spiritually advanced, he could do that. But in general, Prabhupada's overall way of engaging people, Prabhupada was, in a sense, quite rigid about philosophy. There is no deviation in philosophy.
To say that the soul and God are one, absolutely intolerable. To say that the Guru is God, Prabhupada was so heavy that when some disciples said that, he actually expelled them from his school. They thought they were glorifying Prabhupada, so Prabhupada expelled them from his school.
With respect to philosophy, there's samandha, abhideya and prayojan. So samandha gyan, Prabhupada was very, very conservative. You have to be very clear about it.
And prayojan is very lofty. He felt that the devotees are right now quite far away from the school of love for Krishna. So he did not speak.
He spoke about Chaitanya Chaitanya Prabhupada about that. But he was, that was not the thrust. Now with respect to abhideya, with respect to how to share Krishna consciousness, Prabhupada was quite open to newer and newer ideas.
And Prabhupada would tell his disciples that when they wanted to do publicity for the 1971 programme, at that time, Prabhupada told them that all of you are Americans. Indians consider Americans as brilliant, great people. What is the use of you being Americans if you don't do something wonderful for Krishna? And at that time, it was I think first or second time only in India, the devotees made a big, giant helium balloon.
And it was floating in Mumbai above VT station. And it just said Hare Krishna. So that was the publicity for the Hare Krishna Pandal test.
And no religious programme had any publicity like that at that time. People were astounded. Prabhupada was very pleased by this innovative kind of approach of the devotees in sharing Krishna.
So, although Prabhupada himself travelled extensively, but he did not intervene too much in the management of his centre. He spent a lot of his time in writing books. He was available through letters.
And there were lots of letters that devotees wrote to him and he wrote back to them. And in that he gave a lot of practical guidance. But there was a lot that devotees did by their own resourcefulness.
And even in India, apart from his group of dedicated followers, many of the people who were there were life members. And they had their own ideas. But Prabhupada just encouraged them to do what they could for Krishna.
So, I will use one metaphor throughout the class. I will not be in the wrong class. We can have question and answer afterwards.
Suppose there is a person who is, who has a million dollar cheque with him. And that person is a drunk. And being so intoxicated, person doesn't know anything at all.
Doesn't even know the value of that million dollars. So, that person may, if somebody comes along and speaks a nice few sweet words to him, they will give that million dollars to that person. But tragic loss, they give that million dollars.
Now, if somebody is a well-wisher, comes there and talks with them nicely and talks to that person, drunk and persuaded person, and then that person gives the million dollars to this person. Then this person can use those million dollars properly. So, the soul is like the intoxicated person.
And the million dollar treasure that the soul has is the free will of the soul. We all, every one of us has free will. And when we are intoxicated with various material desires, material conceptions, we don't know how best to use our free will.
And anybody comes and allures us with anything, hey, this is nice, sometimes people spend hours and hours just surfing the net, watching TV and looking at movies, playing cricket matches, playing or watching cricket matches, whatever. There was an author who has written over a hundred books and he said that I have so many desires to write more books. He said that I sometimes feel like standing on the streets with a hat in my hands and telling people, please give me all the time you spend on watching TV.
So, okay, watching TV before entertainment is fine, but it becomes an obsession sometimes. So, basically, the point I am making is, people don't know what to spend their time on. And they can spend their precious time for anything and everything.
So, we as, you know, we have come to Krishna's lotus feet and we are trying to bring others to Krishna's lotus feet. So, then, it is our responsibility to persuade people to use their free will properly. And there are that one million dollar example or such that, that person used the one million dollar at one moment, one time.
But the free will is something which you always have. And that's why the free will is something which we each time have to inspire people to give to Krishna. So, that's when Prabhupada said that we have to encourage or inspire the service, spirit of service among people, among devotees.
So, now, the effective leadership in the devotee community would primarily mean this. It's that everybody has their free will, how can we inspire them to serve Krishna? Whether by chanting the holy name, distributing books, contributing to building a temple, doing some practical seva's, or whatever it is. Specifics may vary.
So, generally speaking, one human being can influence another human being only in three ways. One is, give knowledge, second is set example, and third is provide facility. Parents, if you consider.
Parents may want to guide their children. Now, when the children are small, the parents have much more control over them. But as they grow into teenage and then they grow old, then the children, parents can't really control the children much.
So, now, when we connect with people, generally people are already adults or we also don't have much control over them. So, knowledge, example and facility. These three things mean that knowledge.
If you do this, this will happen. If you do this, this will happen. So, we give them the eyes to see.
They're going on this road, this is where this road leads to, this is where this road leads to. So, in fact, this is what Krishna also does in the Bhagavad Gita. He doesn't end so much, the Bhagavad Gita is not, the Bible is set to be a book of commandments.
The Bhagavad Gita doesn't contain so many commandments like that. The Bhagavad Gita is more a book of choices and consequences. You do this, this will happen.
Now, you choose what you want to do. So, knowledge is one thing. And that's the part of your Bhakti Goswami does, we are sharing knowledge.
So, our Acharya has given us that knowledge. And we try to share that knowledge so that people understand. However, knowledge alone is not enough.
Along with that, people should see example. Somebody who is living that knowledge. So, if we say we should be dedicated to Krishna, then people should say, OK, somebody is dedicated to Krishna.
They see us also committed to Krishna, then that inspires us a lot. That inspires people a lot. It is said Krishna consciousness is more caught than taught.
Caught means when we see somebody actually living a Krishna conscious life, we learn. Taught means, OK, do this, don't do this. Yes, there are certain principles, do's and don'ts, but how they have to be applied in life, when they have to be applied in life, that we learn by observing others.
And that's why association is so important. Association is not just for knowledge transmission. Association is also where we see devotees either living or not living in Krishna Bhakti.
And in both ways, one of the biggest causes of atheism in today's world is theists. Now, religious people, when they don't behave properly, they only believe others. And I was in Texas.
It's considered to be a Bible-built area. So, there there was a car bumper. It said, Oh God, please save me from your preachers.
So, the preachers, sometimes they are too domineering, they have a holier-than-thou attitude, condescending attitude. Then, I don't know, what is the thing to do with these preachers? So, God saves us normally through his preachers. Somebody said, please save me from your preachers.
So, in the association, if there is an inspiring example, this is how Krishna Consciousness is learned. So, we can set an example for others, by our own conduct, by our own dedication, by our own service attitude. And then, last is facilities.
This is where, often, we may need the maximum amount of resourcefulness. Because to some extent, once we become initiated, we do practise, we do our sadhana. The knowledge, we keep learning it, but the knowledge is not that difficult to acquire.
Now, there are so many websites available, so many books available, we can find some content and we can speak it. But facilities means that where people are, in their situation, how best to help them to practise Krishnamurti. So, to go back to the broader tradition now, if you see, in Gaudiya Vishnuism, there are two kinds of people.
One where the renounced babajis, renunciates, they would have nothing to do with the world. They would live under trees and they would be, at least those who were living exemplary lives, they were completely absorbed in Krishna Leela. And then there were the householders.
So, the householders would have their family, they would have their family responsibilities and then, there would usually be the local temple priests who would act like their gurus. And the bablas, renunciates, they would act as an example of renunciation. But most of the practical guidance, they would be performed by the local priests.
The priests would be people who would do the namakaran of the children, do the vivaha yajna and all these kind of things. Now, unfortunately over time, there was a decline in both. Many of the bablas, renunciates, the babajis, in our tradition, before Bhakti Sahasrara Thakur and after Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, there were no sannyasis.
There were babajis. So, there is a historical reason for that. Rupa and Sanatana Goswami were the foremost followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
And they have had been Muslims before. So, because of that, by some conservatives in Vrindavan, they were considered to be unqualified for sannyas. Because they had been lekhchas.
So, then they took the babaji vesh. And because they took babaji vesh, all subsequent Gaudiya Vaishnavas felt that they are the greatest of renunciates. If they have not taken sannyas, then how can we take sannyas? So, babaji vesh became common thereafter.
But, many of these babajis, they started having illicit connections in the name of imitating Krishna's postulates. Just as Radha Krishna had the Ras Neela, Prabhupada said they would have Rascal Neela. So, now, because of this, the babajis got a very bad name.
And, in fact, Gaudiya Vaishnavism at one time started being equated with immorality. And on the other end, those who were householder priests, many of them became caste Goswamis. That means, they started saying that only those who are born in our Vamsha, they can actually become priests.
They can actually officiate. They can actually teach. And everyone is still subordinate.
And, in fact, some of them said that only those who are born in these Vamshas, they can be Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Others can be like second degree. Something like that.
So, that caste system which was there in India, that started percolating there also. And both ways, they started getting, we could say, corruption. So, when Bhaktivinoda Thakur, he was a renunciate.
Bhaktivinoda Thakur was a grahastha. Bhaktivinoda Thakur was a renunciate. But when he wanted to take sannyas, or when he wanted to renounce the world, at that time, he felt that because the babaji vesh had become so disgraced, that he would not, his purpose of preaching would not be served if he were a babaji.
On the other hand, at that time, there were many, there were many mayavadis, some who had been sannyasis, who had travelled across the world. And the sannyas ashram had gained some glamour. So, Bhaktivinoda Thakur took sannyas.
And then, Prabhupada also took sannyas. Bhaktivinoda Thakur gave his disciples sannyas. Prabhupada gave his disciples sannyas.
So, now, initially, when Prabhupada started the movement in America, it was largely a monastic movement. Becoming a devotee, moving into the temple. Even people who got married also, many of the times, they stayed in the temple.
And at that time, the dynamic was very different. But now, if you see, our movement has become largely a congregation-based movement. And then, people have their professions, people have their families, people have their various other issues, along with the practise of bhakti.
So, sthāne sthita śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāna-mano-vidas That the Mahāprabhu said, this is the highest instruction, stay where you are and practise bhakti. So, in a sense, now, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is coming towards that. So, for us, what are the understanding, what are the challenges that people face in their particular situations, and how we can remove those challenges.
So, basically, you know, effective leadership means, if Kṛṣṇa is here, we are here. Then, from, Kṛṣṇa is here, we are here, people are, say, here, somewhere. So, from people to come to here, what is the path and what are the obstacles in the path? So, if we understand these two things and we try to address them.
So, for example, now, devotees have to get married. So, then, can we have some system for marriage? Devotees are children who have to be educated. So, can we create some system for education? So, devotees fall sick.
Can we have some treatment centre? So, now, whatever are the various needs of devotees, if the more and more they can be fulfilled within the devotee community itself, the more and more they get connections with Kṛṣṇa. So, the whole process of absorption is through increased connection. When we get absorbed in some subject, what does it mean? You are hearing one point, it's triggering the whole like this.
When we get absorbed in something, that means we get connected more and more through more and more directions. So, similarly, when we are helping people to come closer and closer to Kṛṣṇa, the more and more connections they get with Kṛṣṇa. Of course, they need some guiding connection, but along with that, they need some supplementary connections also.
The more connections they form with Kṛṣṇa, the more they become strongly situated in Kṛṣṇa. So, here they move towards Kṛṣṇa. So, because in the past, the babajis were exceptional.
Most of the grahasthas, they would live in communities, and India at that time was overall pious. There might have been different kinds of devatās who had been worshipped, but overall it was a pious culture. So, today it is not like that.
Today the culture is somewhat different, and a major challenge is that there is a big gap between devotional values and the values of the mainstream society. This gap is there for almost all religions, but the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement has a lot of principles, so it becomes even more for us. And therefore, it becomes vital for devotees to get shelter in the devotee community.
If devotees don't get shelter in the devotee community, then they become very disheartened. A devotee was joking with me, he said that when people come new to us, we feed them fried pakodas. And when they become regular devotees, we fry them like pakodas.
So, sometimes when devotees have been around for a long time, we start taking them for granted, and we demand too many things for them, we dump too many things on them. And devotees feel burdened by that. So, actually, the whole purpose of leadership is so that devotees inspire people to come towards Kṛṣṇa.
And we have to, based on our interaction with people, find out what their needs are. And how can we facilitate them to come towards Kṛṣṇa. And the more this has been done, that when facilities are provided for people to come towards Kṛṣṇa, the community becomes stronger and stronger.
And, of course, we also have limitations, how many facilities we can provide, how much time it takes to create a particular facility. One prominent facility is a temple. A good temple, a big temple, that's a facility which can be used for serving Kṛṣṇa.
At the same time, the amount of effort required to build a temple, and the amount of energy that it takes, whether that is helping people grow in spiritual life or that is burdening people in the spiritual life, that also has to be considered. The temple is meant to glorify Kṛṣṇa, but if you see the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it has spread in many parts of the world, quite a bit before we have our first temple in the western world. So, temple is important, but most important is the glorification of Kṛṣṇa.
Temple is a place for the glorification of Kṛṣṇa. Wherever I am glorified, that is where I am present. If a temple is a facility that is needed for the nourishing of the community, that's wonderful.
Whatever facility is needed, we work to provide them that, and then devotees become more and more enlightened. Because in general, once I conclude with this point, in general, when people understand, especially people in a grasta life, more or less, life is stable. And once people start practising spiritual life, they won't give it up.
Unless something very bad happens with them, they won't give it up. But, they may not take it up very enthusiastically. Because unless they feel a personal connection with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda has explained this point, about personal connection. Hayagriva Prabhu was one of Prabhupāda's disciples. And Prabhupāda had initially run back to God in India.
And then, when he came to America, he entrusted it to his disciples. He says, all of you run back to God. Hayagriva Prabhu only said, till that time, we had never done anything with a magazine except read it.
We didn't know what to do, how to produce a magazine, what to do. And we went to ask Prabhupāda, and he said, Prabhupāda will give us some guidance. Prabhupāda said, pray to Kṛṣṇa, He will guide you.
So now, what does that mean? There are times when Prabhupāda gave practical guidance also. But this is, Prabhupāda himself was new in America. And he said, all of you know better.
But the point is, Hayagriva Prabhu said that the way Prabhupāda spoke about Kṛṣṇa, we felt as if Kṛṣṇa is a real person, Kṛṣṇa is a friend. Kṛṣṇa is with us, and if we try to serve Him, Kṛṣṇa will help us. So that personal connection with Kṛṣṇa and personal inspiration to serve Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's representative that Prabhupāda triggered in people, that is what inspired them very much.
So for us, sometimes you may tell people, do this, do that, people may not respond. They may get frustrated why people are not cooperating. So it's yes, sometimes people need to be pushed.
Prabhupāda said one time that my Guru Mahārāja pushed me, I am pushing all of you, you push others. Ours is a pushing paramparā. So everybody needs to be pushed, a little bit at least.
But people have to be also inspired. So sometimes some people, Prabhupāda also asked that, do you love all your disciples equally? And Prabhupāda said yes. But if someone comes forward to render service, I reciprocate.
I reciprocate. We would like to help everyone to advance, but everybody has freedom. So how much can we push people and how can we inspire people? Say in India, we have these cars.
Sometimes the car breaks down. Our car doesn't start. Then some neighbouring people come and they all push the car.
They push, push, push, and inside the person is trying to start, and the car starts off. So now suppose people from outside are pushing and the person inside is pushing the brake. Then the people outside, why should we push? Or worse, if the people from outside are pushing and the person inside has gone to sleep.
Then people will say, why should we push? That's natural. Similarly, we all need to push people. But ultimately, the body is like a vehicle and they are inside that vehicle.
And it is they who have to be inspired to drive. So to some extent we push people, but to some extent we can find out what is it that they feel inspired to do. And then we see how that can be done in the purview of bhakti.
Or whatever is to be done in the purview of bhakti, if we inspire them to do it. Then it is they who will want to drive. We may have to push a little bit, but the success of a counsellor is that the counsellor makes himself unemployed.
That means people don't need counselling. People grow up and they can do things themselves. Now of course we understand the relationship with the Guru is eternal and we would like to have a long term relationship with devotees, but the idea is our goal is not only to guide people but to inspire people.
Even if tomorrow they are not connected with us, we go somewhere else, they go somewhere else, they should be inspired to practise bhakti. So while guiding people and facilitating people, one important facility we should provide them is to somehow help them discover what they can do for Krishna. If they can get that, then they will just move forward wonderfully.
And that was Prabhupada's great success. Prabhupada not only established a great movement, but Prabhupada inspired many many devotees to dedicate their life to Krishna and to continue serving Krishna even after Prabhupada departed. So once Prabhupada was asked, who will be your successors? And Prabhupada said, different times he got different answers.
One time Prabhupada said, whoever wants to be. Whoever wants to be means, Prabhupada did not play favourites. Anybody who takes up initiating, takes up responsibility, takes up drive, they will get the facilities.
They will get the blessings and they will move forward. So that is our opportunity. For all of us, by Prabhupada's mercy, by our spiritual master's mercy, by Krishna's mercy, we have got some opportunity to do some service, to lead a small part of a community.
And if we can inspire others with a desire to serve Krishna, that will be the success of our leadership. So I'll summarise. I spoke about becoming an effective leader and started by talking about the history of ISKCON where we started in the West where Prabhupada was a charismatic leader.
And normally religious organisations started with a charismatic founder often collapsed after he departs. ISKCON could have been set for collapse all the more than other organisations because the gap between the founder and the successor was so great. But it has not collapsed, it has expanded.
Because Prabhupada actually was a leader who created other leaders. He inspired others with a desire to serve Krishna. And that was his vision of leadership.
Although he was generated as an acharya, he created a GBC and he delegated responsibility. With Sambandhe he was very very conservative. But with Abhidheya, he gave a lot of freedom.
His devotee disciples in America, he let them come up with creative ways of sharing Krishna Bhakti. And life members in India also, just channelled their service spirit. And Prabhupada did not want too much centralisation of power.
He said that the purpose of leadership is not to centralise power but to inspire the spirit of service. And then, in today's world, I will talk about how every devotee, in our moment, is a volunteer. And we are all, everybody in the material world is like an intoxicated person with a million dollars.
Somehow, we have our free will and others have their free will. We have to inspire others to use their free will to serve Krishna. That free will is like a million dollars.
So, how can one soul influence another? Three ways. Providing knowledge of consequences of their choices. Setting an example of what is the right thing to do.
Or setting an example of ourselves doing the right thing. And providing facilities. So, we have many resources to acquire knowledge.
And the example is Krishna Consciousness is more taught than caught. More caught than taught. So, often it is religious people, if they behave in ungodly ways, that it alienates people.
And if people come and associate devotees and they find it inspiring, they move forward towards Krishna. The biggest challenge for us is in creating facilities. For where people are, from there, what are the obstacles for them to come to Krishna and what is the pathway for them to come to Krishna.
So, whatever are the various needs as a community progresses, whatever are the various needs of devotees, if they can all be provided for within the devotee community or as many as possible are provided within the devotee community. Like, say, parenting, taking care of children, marriage, medical care. The more and more we provide connections with Krishna for people, not just one connection with the Guru or one connection with this guide, but many, many connections.
Then people become more and more absorbed in Krishna. And, I conclude it by talking about how when we are trying to engage people, one thing is to instruct them and tell them, do this, don't do this. But another is to inspire within them a desire to serve Krishna.
And that often means triggering that particular instinct or inspiration within them. So, I talked about how a car can be pushed from outside, but the person inside also has to drive. So, we have to push people, but ultimately our success is not in how far we push people, but in how much we stimulate within them to themselves take up the service of Krishna.
That's what Srila Prabhupada did and that's how the Krishna conscious movement has spread far and wide. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
Any comments or questions? You spoke about inspiring and inspiration. One cannot inspire others to cooperate until they themselves are inspired to cooperate themselves. So, often in a community like ours, which is volunteer driven, you have, you know, people going here and there from a leadership standpoint.
And then you have to also join the community culture of cooperation. So, my question is, how do we inspire ourselves to cooperate? What is it that would stop us from wanting to cooperate? Our own attitude, our unwillingness, our freedom ultimately, or our not being able to align with the views of the leaders or what is being taught to them. So, leaders can inspire someone to cooperate only when they themselves are inspired to cooperate.
One understanding of leadership is that every leader will need their space. So, generally you see that there are all of us, we have two needs. We have a need for connection and we have a need for space.
Sometimes if you can just leave me alone, I want some time for myself. So, we all need some space sometimes. And we also need a connection.
And different individuals may need this in different proportions, and even that proportion may also vary at different times. So, I would say that it's not a matter of one-zero that somebody cooperates or somebody doesn't cooperate. I was in Intel, Google.
So, in Google, they have a department called Mavericks Department. So, what is this Mavericks Department? These people, they have no team leader, they have no deadlines, they have no work pressure. They just come up with new ideas.
And in one sense, it seems very deficient. You just give them nothing to do. But many of their most dramatic developments have happened to these groups.
They don't put anybody and everybody, because most people will be lazy. But people who are really driven, those people, they're so brilliant that they can't work together in groups. But, at the same time, they can be valuable assets.
That is an extreme example I'm seeing of some people who can be very valuable contributors, but they just can't work in groups. But, we all are a part of a team, but different people require different degrees of space. So, I would say, rather than thinking that, I can't cooperate, or I can cooperate, we can see that more as not digital, but analogue.
Some people need a little more space, some people need a little less space. And then we, ourselves, come to an understanding of this. So, yes, this is something I would like to do in this way.
And then, sometimes we can communicate with others, other leaders, and then understand why they are doing it in a particular way, explain why they are trying to do it in a particular way. And then some things can be adjusted within the broad view of the community. Some things may not be possible to adjust right now.
So, that's fine. We don't have to see cooperation as a zero-one kind of thing. There can be degrees.
And, each individual leader is going to bring their own flavour. So, let's say that if we have the community, we need to recognise that it is, while we need our space, we also need the community. So, that's why we can find some balance of both.
Where we have our space also, and we have a sense of connection and harmonisation with the overall vision of the community. Some room for variation is always required, and it is given. It can be adjusted accordingly, as is required.
And, if we reduce cooperation to just one stereotype, you know, everybody has to follow this formula, then you may feel, you know, I don't feel like doing it. But, if you understand, cooperation means a common purpose. And, how that common purpose is to be served, that can vary.
Now, suppose a temple, a community is working together, and a community said, right now, we want to focus on, say, strengthening our community, maybe, devotee care or whatever. Sometimes, some other times, community may feel, now we want to distribute books. Or, now we may want to build a temple.
So, that may be the overall vision of the community. And, that's what everybody will overall direct towards. But, within that, different devotees may do it in different ways.
Which is fine. How exactly we do it. Prabhupada did not want some devotees who came, who were very good distributors.
And, they came to Prabhupada once and they said that, we have found out certain lines. We speak this to people and people take books. So, we are planning to go to various temples and teach devotees what to speak.
How to speak the lines so that they can make people take books. And then, Prabhupada said that Krishna Consciousness is individual, voluntary and spontaneous. He says, don't tell devotees what lines to speak.
He says, inspire them to serve Krishna. And they will find out from their heart what we can speak. That doesn't mean we don't give guidelines to people.
But, it's not that we want everybody to be Xerox copy of everyone else. Everybody is individual and they bring their individuality to serve Krishna. If we think of cooperation as just conformity in 100% to some stereotype, then we may be resentful.
But, if we have a more nuanced understanding of cooperation, then we can have our space and still we can contribute to the overall purpose of the community. That's all. Very good.
It's within this call of going to room that we all see that, you know, the Puri temple model or Puri congregation model or chapati model is very successful. Very effective leaders have come up. And they have achieved very nicely.
Now, how would that model evolve? Can you share some thoughts on that? It's very important for us to understand because in the vast space of life how we can make use of such a model and follow the same footsteps of these two esteemed temples. So, can you tell something about how the Pune or the chapati model evolved? I told you in the morning afternoon class about how some people make things happen, some people watch things happen and some people wonder what happened. They put the goodness, passion and ignorance.
So, with respect to Pune and chapati, I fall in the third category. I wonder what happened. It's like that.
So, I was more of a writer and a speaker. So, I was not actively involved directly in the counselling or devotee care or management. Long ago, maybe 15 years ago, Jaidat Maharaj was my writing guru.
So, I was involved in management. Jaidat Maharaj saw that I had written some articles, I published them back to Godhead. So, he said, let others manage, you write.
So, from that time, I have not been involved in management. So, it is said that those who can do something, they do it. Those who can't do it, they teach it.
So, I feel like that when I speak to all of you. Okay, having said that, another disclaimer I would like to add is that no model is perfect. So, every model has its issues.
And having observed both the temples, Pune and Chowpatty closely, from an insider perspective, there is this, we always say the grass is greener on the other side. So, we think that oh, there is some community which is wonderful. And, you go there, if you stay there for one or two days, it seems wonderful.
You stay there for a month or two, then you say, what happened? It's like a new form I am seeing over here. So, there are problems everywhere. There is no, no, there is no such thing as somewhere something is ideal, which we can follow.
Problems, we are all conditioned souls. And we are all sadhakas trying to overcome our conditions. So, problems are everywhere.
Having said these two disclaimers, what I see is that the broad vision, Chowpatty is more like a community temple. Pune is more like a missionary temple. So, Chowpatty, the focus is more on building a community.
Whereas, in Pune, the focus has been on preaching, more and more. And, it's a, it's basically, I was a brahmachari. So, I will talk more from brahmachari point of view than from grahastha point of view.
I was talking with one devotee in Africa. he was a, I met many of Shri Prabhupada's disciples and senior devotees who were very prominent scholars. They have now become very prominent scholars of Gaudiya Vishnu's mainstream academy.
Many of them were brahmacharis at one time. And they all have now become grahasthas. So, I asked some of them.
They were already very intellectual. So, what made them to change the ashram? They said that, we felt there was no vision for our growth in the ashram. There was no vision for growth.
There was one devotee, he said that, he was in the ashram for four years and his main service for those four years was picking and dropping the matajis who came to cook Sandhya Bhog and Raj Bhog. Now, that may be a service that is required, but how can you expect a brahmachari to do that service? And he said that's what he was doing for three years. There was no genuine service.
So, at one time, devotees in the temple were treated like free labour force. And whatever is required, they make them do it. And then, yes, in one sense, we are expected to have a surrender service attitude and we should do whatever service we are told to do.
But at the same time, we all want a sense of progress in life. Or we want a sense of, you know, I'm contributing something, I'm growing, I'm able to do more service to Krishna. And when that was not there, then devotees just got disheartened.
What am I doing over here? So, what started with Chowpatty was that Prahlad Maharaj, he felt that, or he said that, the brahmacharis will not do any fundraising. The focus will be on brahmacharis will become brahmanas. They will become, they will themselves study and they will teach.
Now, for many of the leaders at that time, the congregation leaders, it's a paradigm shift. Now, all day, what are you going to do in the temple? You go out and raise money. That's what service meant.
But then he said, he himself started conducting classes, spending a lot of time educating devotees in philosophy. And then, the two, three devotees initially who were well-educated and the culture they attracted, many others. And then, basically, the way of preaching is that is the kind of people get attracted.
And then, from my understanding, I have not studied the history elaborately, but from Chowpatty, then Pune, that is when we started attracting educated people to become brahmacharis. Because they had a vision that we could dedicate our life to sharing Krishna. So, studying it, teaching it, and that vision that the renounced order are meant to be teachers, that vision was consistently stressed.
And that's how many of the devotees who came in the 90s, now we see they have become leading preachers. That's because they were, like I said, in the facility, they were given the facility. No pressure to raise funds, no pressure to build a temple, no pressure to distribute a lot of books.
The devotees did all these services also. But that was not the prime, there was no pressure for that. Study Shastra, teach Shastra.
So, I feel that vision for the growth of devotees, okay, you are contributing this now, what can you contribute in the future? How can you, so we could say like a chart for the growth of devotees. So, when that was there, that inspired more and more devotees to commit themselves and grow. And in Pune, this was taken one step further, in the sense that, not just you become a teacher, but Pune also created many youth projects in various parts of the country, where actually devotees could go and set up youth preaching centres and preach.
In many ways, from what I understand, Gopal Krishnamaharaj has done that, something similar, adapted a lot of things, but the youth preaching model from Pune, they have taken that in Delhi, and now Delhi has something like 15 temples. 15, not very small temple, not very big temple also, but apart from that, so there are young devotees who became brahmacharis and they were sent to different parts of Pune, of Delhi, and they opened centres over there. So, Prabhupada told Gopal Krishnamaharaj to open 11 temples.
He opened more than that. So now, it says that, if this understanding, that we have to give a vision for how devotees are going to grow. So now, of course, Delhi is Hindi speaking, and the dynamic is quite different.
So I wouldn't say that Delhi has simply copied what Pune has done. There are a lot of adaptations. I was just in Delhi before I came here.
So, a lot of adaptations they have done in the content, in the presentation, in the overall structure, but, there also, young people are joining. And, now, with respect to grahasthas, at one time, there was a lot of pressure that, you know, devotees come for the morning programme, do this, do that, and the family life itself was quite neglected. And the result of that was, not only that we had a lot of family issues with devotees separating, but a big effect was on the second generation.
Because many of the children felt uncared for. Because, they said, oh, you should be like Allah. And, the parents are often unavailable, going to Nepal, doing services, doing this, doing that.
So then, I met one devotee in somewhere in America. He said that, he is a, he is a devotee's child, but he is not exactly a devotee now. He is on the borderline.
So, he told me that, my most prominent memory as a child is the disappointment of my parents that I was not the reincarnation of Prahlad Maharaj. So, children are going to be children. And then, they will take up bhakti at their own pace.
And, if on one side, the parents are so caught up in themselves in the temple, they don't give time to children. And then they expect a lot. This doesn't work that way.
So, I said that, how aggressive the community has to grow, how to balance and give good enough time for one's family, one's children, one's profession, and also contribute to, contribute to Krishna's service. That balance is something which has to be learned by connecting with other grahasthas. And, some devotees may work full time in the temple.
But, in general, that balance where devotees can sustain themselves. Just as there is a vision for brahmachari life, there is a vision for grahastha life that many devotees, especially when they join new, even if they join recently married or they got married for a few years, when they come new, there is a lot of zeal for Krishna bhakti. But then, that has to be tempered with with some balance.
Otherwise, one just overdoes things and then one gets fried out. So, okay, now you are doing this much service. After ten years, maybe you can take a while.
You can do a little more when you are more financially stable. That sort of planning, so that one can gradually increase on service, so that there is a vision. If somebody comes as a grahastha, one advantage I have seen of devotees who leave India and go abroad, elsewhere, is that sometimes in India where there are big congregations, people get lost in the congregation.
But when they go to other places, they are not just a big congregation, they get an opportunity to do more service, to take up more responsibilities. And that also helps them to grow. So, in some places where there is a huge congregation, the advantage is one has a big community around.
And if, like earlier I said, some people need space more, some people need connection more. So those who just feel, oh, such a nice community around. Wherever I go, I see, I can say, Hare Krishna, I can talk with devotees.
Feel very good about that. And actually anyone will feel good about that, but sometimes in that you don't get much service there. You don't get much opportunity to associate with senior devotees because there are so many people.
So, then in the big community, unless the leaders are the top leaders or the intermediate leaders, they are thoughtful enough to provide devotees an inspiring path onwards in their spiritual life. Otherwise they don't grow. So, on the other hand, where there is not much of a community, then there are a lot of things to be done.
And if the leader can provide some inspiration, then devotees can take up a lot of service. So I would say that basically a chart for the growth of devotees, not in all its details, but in the broad principles, if that is provided for, then exactly what modifications need to be done where, all that can be adjusted. So, one of the driving visions of the whole council system, the marriage board, everything else was that, you know, if a person has come to Krishna, we should provide them enough facility for them to lifelong practise Gupti.
Sometimes like, okay, you come to Krishna, now my job is over. Now find another person to come to Krishna. What about me? You are already here now.
So, it shouldn't be like that. Nancy, thank you. If you want to add anything, you can, please.
Anything you want to add? I would like to add, my Lord appreciates everyone. We should not take for granted what we have got. Yes, we are not there yet.
We can have that positive vision that when we travel and we fall off places, or when we fall down, and we see the reports, and they say, when we climb Everest, they see how long we are covered, or how much is left. We look at that and get discouraged. You see, I have travelled a bit, it doesn't mean there is no progress.
In that way, you get inspiration still, you take inspiration, at the same time not look down for what is being done. Because you are working hard, you should be nice. Also, I feel that, I mean, it is great to take inspiration from different worlds and things, but ultimately, each year, I am trying to say, to really achieve the results that we see, with our vision for our own yantra, for the path of our own yantra, and that is different from the Shanti or Punya, it is so different.
So, I think, trying to help in a particular model would be difficult. It is almost like, what model can we create for our needs, and obviously, taking inspiration back to from this question, on how do the leaders stay inspired, and where do we seek our inspiration from, we try to inspire others, and how do we maintain that inspiration in ourselves, and I guess, I mean, I think, ultimately, my understanding is that, ultimately, all our inspiration comes from Krishna, and the more we connect in our own sadhana, in our own spiritual learning and understanding, the more we will naturally feel inspired. My point was that, it is good to learn that there is something, but everything gets evolved over a period of time.
I am not saying that Chowdhury, or Gaudi, or any other temple has been brought into that situation in 24 hours, or overnight. It has an evolution, and it was a period of time that they have spent, they have worked very hard to come to that stage, but they have reached to a certain level that people can follow that path. So, that kind of some practises can be taken, and instead of we studying to understand where we are, we understand that, we learn from that, and then progress.
I am not trying to say that nothing is good enough. Of course, it is good enough. It is better to adopt something which is good, so that we can progress better, and quickly.
Thank you. Sorry, I have to leave. And as leaders, how do we, when you talk about pushing, but then about inspiring as well, you want to push them a bit, you want to inspire them a bit, but at the same time you want to make sure that you don't compromise on the overall result, because you want to make sure that, because it's a Krishna project that the best is achieved.
So how do we get that sort of balance right, that the best is achieved, but at the same time devotees are inspired and pushed in a balanced way. In my understanding, Prabhupada's mode was that, start off things and they will improve over time. When Prabhupada wrote his books, he himself knew that, he writes in Bhagavatam Purport itself that, our attempt to present this great literature in a foreign language is bound to fail.
But still it is a science of technical, it's a technical science of spiritual values. We hope that Indian people will appreciate it. And when Prabhupada got some devotees who could do English, they did some English editing, Prabhupada started off.
So in general, because we are a movement of volunteers, we do want to maintain some standards, but things evolve. If we try to impose standards too much, then people feel too burdened. So then we have to sometimes decide which standards are really important, which standards are not that important right now.
So for example, we are doing deity worship. Now when somebody gets new deities at their home, they cannot be expected to have very high standards, at least get a deity at home. Start some work, make your home into a temple, and start some level of worship, and gradually you can improve that.
That is easy to understand at an individual level. But when we are working together in a community, at that time, when you are doing projects, each community leader will have to decide what is most important for whom. Some people are very organised.
One, two, three, four, just do everything systematically. Some people are more spontaneous. So organised people and spontaneous people, it's like a collision course.
And both of them can have philosophy. Organised people say, you know, we are doing this for Krishna, we have to do it very nicely. You know, you are being irresponsible.
Spontaneous people say, you know, you let Krishna act, don't become Krishna. Don't try to control everything. So learn some dependence on Krishna, people will tell.
So both can have philosophy to support what they want to say. But it's best for our own mental peace that we work with like-minded devotees. So if we are working on a particular project, then generally speaking, like-minded devotees will gravitate towards it.
So if we like to do something meticulously, then gradually we attract a team which does things meticulously. In some other departments, some things may be a little more spontaneous. Maybe the leader is also like that.
Now we may not be able to appreciate what they are doing, but they are doing service in their own way. And it's not that only meticulous people are allowed to practise Krishna Bhakti. People who are spontaneous, they can also be allowed to practise Krishna Bhakti.
And they will do it in their own way. So in some services, say, being meticulous is important. In some services, it may not be that important.
Say, if you are doing a programme which is primarily for outreach and new people are coming. At that time, you would like somebody who is a very good kirtanier to do kirtans. But in the temple, when somebody is not that good a kirtanier, they can also sing.
It's not that they should be completely bad singers, but they may not be that great singers. Say, if you are doing programmes in the temple bhagavan classes, temple inside programmes, sometimes those who speak may not be all the outreach speakers. But if you are doing a new programme, then somebody who is a really good speaker, they should be asked to do it.
So we have to have a balance between ensuring that devotees are engaged in service and they are given some facility to serve Krishna irrespective of what quality of service they are doing. At the same time, there are certain services which are important. All are important, but certain services are important from a broader perspective also.
So then for those, maintaining certain qualities, certain standard is extremely important. And Krishna is pleased just by the bhava. Krishna is pleased simply by our intention to serve.
In that sense, even if somebody is serving in a disorganised way, their heart is in the right place, Krishna may still be pleased by them, with them. At the same time, if Krishna is to be served in this world, then we do need a certain level of quality with respect to doing things in this world. Now even if a devotee sings out of tune, if that devotee is singing from the heart, Krishna may be pleased by that.
But if a devotee is singing out of tune, people may not understand what is happening. So in that sense, especially where we are interacting with the broader community or the broader world, then certain qualities need to be maintained. Does this answer your question? Yes, Krishna.
There are a lot of people in Sydney who have practised Krishna Manjara for 30 or 40 years, but they are not here. So when we don't see the senior devotees joining together and working together, and then expect people who are just starting off Krishna Manjara, who are just starting doing bhakti-miksha and everything, so how do we get the inspiration that, okay, we are going to work together as a team, but when we see the older devotees who are 30 or 40 years, if we don't see them working together and forming a holistic community, then what message does it give to the new devotees? If we don't see senior devotees working together in the community, who are 20-30 years old, then how do we get the inspiration to come together ourselves? Actually, the time when Prabhupada departed, that was a very traumatic time. And our movement also made many mistakes at that time.
So devotees have been burned quite badly by that time, many of them. Basically, two, three factors. One is that if we consider that, now say, all of you are more or less, some of you are little senior, some of you are little younger, but all of you, say, maybe 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, all of you are more or less equals.
And suddenly, tomorrow, one of you becomes a spiritual master. Everybody else is supposed to offer puja to them. I know you, actually, you are not a pure devotee.
It will suddenly become very difficult. That's what happened. Some devotees, they are all working together.
Some are leaders acknowledged, but still, Prabhupada is in a different category. And suddenly, some people, they have become successors to Prabhupada. And naturally, these devotees are also very young.
The oldest person who became the GVC was around 36 or 37 at that time. And 36, 37, that is quite a young age. So then, they tried their best, but sometimes they were also not having so much experience, and maybe sometimes they made some mistakes.
So, what happened, for these devotees themselves, at one level, to adjust to this new dynamic was very difficult. See them being venerated as if they are pure devotees. On top of that, these devotees also had their own projects.
And their disciples treated them like to God. So, whatever they told, they would do that. But on the other hand, when they have their God brothers, sometimes they would have reservations.
No, no, this doesn't seem like a good plan. Would Prabhupada have done this? Some of their objections were bona fide, some were not having. But whatever it is, the leaders found that if they had some plans to execute, their disciples were much more compliant than their God brothers.
So, eventually what happened? Their God brothers got sidelined. And sometimes some devotees had done a lot of services also, but sometimes things just changed. When Prabhupada was there, at that time, the main source of income for the temples was book distribution.
This happened in America, I don't know how much it happened in Australia. But after some time, because devotees were a little too pushy in book distribution, some devotees were not entirely honest about what the books contained. They got a lot of flak because of that.
And then, suddenly in the early 1980s, in America, the book distribution started going down. And as the book distribution started going down, it happened that the temples just didn't have money. And devotees were doing book distribution.
They couldn't do book distribution, and devotees were dedicated their lives to temples. The temple couldn't maintain them anymore. And the temple told them to leave, and they said, where can we go? We had dropped our education and come here.
So, somehow at that time, nothing could be done. Things just changed. At that time, actually, more or less in the Western world, the Indian community started coming in.
And the Indian community started financially supporting the temples, and that's how the Christian Consciousness Movement started becoming more Indian. So actually, in many ways, the Indian community saved its corner at that time. But the point was, at that time, several devotees were let off.
And they felt disappointed. They felt betrayed. And on top of that, some of our spiritual leaders also had problems, which also created a lot of heartbreak among people.
So, many devotees in the first generation have gone through a lot. They've gone through a lot, and that's why they may keep a little distance now. I would say that we shouldn't judge them.
They are practising bhakti in their own way, but they have gone through difficulties, because they may have some difficulty in trusting the current leaders, or in working together with the current leaders. They are so senior, and now the leadership is more or less with people who are much younger to them. So, they may not feel that comfortable working with them.
So, they are serving Krishna in their own way, and they are moving towards Krishna. So, in general, we have to see how best I can serve Krishna, and from where I can get inspiration. Now, some places, I may have to learn certain lessons.
You know, okay, this doesn't work like this. This was what was done, it was not right, and we need to correct it. But there are many senior devotees who are themselves alone, or alone and a small group of devotees, they are serving.
I know one devotee, he is almost 72, and for 52 years, every day he goes 8 hours for Guru's division. 52 years he has been going. And he is grasta, he maintains himself for Guru's division only.
It's so much bigger, yes. So, there are devotees at an individual level, many of them are more dedicated, but somehow working together might be a little more difficult. And in general, you know, as we tend to grow a little older, we tend to need a little more space.
And sometimes in youth, there is a lot of energy, and that energy is what brings vitality to life. But when people are older, that energy might just be a little too much. So, I think that different generation also makes a little difference.
We have to find, there could be many… In general, wanting one's own space is not necessarily a sign of being uncooperative. Being uncooperative in my understanding would be that if somebody just says that, somebody starts criticising others, sabotaging others' efforts, that's being uncooperative. Some people just need their own space.
As long as they are not doing any harm to anyone, and they are practising their bhakti in their own way, that's fine. Some people may just not be comfortable in the particular team that is evolving at a particular place. So, they can practise bhakti in whatever way they want.
If they are actively speaking against the community, then it's a matter of concern. Then maybe, if we have the role or if we have the responsibility, then we can try to build bridges and clarify misconceptions. Otherwise, then we keep a distance from them.
But in general, it has happened that, we have, in the first generation, very advanced devotees, like spiritual masters, sannyasis, gurus, who are hugely inspiring in their own ways. But you could say the lay devotees, lay means the general devotee community, from the first generation is not there so much. Or even the second generation, the very older devotees are not there.
So, that's just the turbulence that happened after the departure of the founder Acharya. Prabhupada writes in the 4th Canto Purport that when the Acharya departs, Acharya brings order amidst chaos. When the Acharya departs, again chaos comes.
So, Jaydev Maharaj gave a series of lectures in Radhadesh on the history of ISKCON. He titled those lectures as, Unity in Perversity. So, what is unity in perversity? He says that, don't, he says that, don't, he says that, he is busy with the history of, little bit of history of Christianity, of Islam, of Gaudiya Maheshwari after Chaitanya Mahaprabhu departed, and of Gaudiya Maheshwari after Bhaktivinoda Mahaprabhu departed.
He said, every great religious organisation, every great religion, after the founder departed, there was chaos for some time. So, in that sense, that perversity comes after the founder Acharya departs, after the founder departs. And in that sense, what has happened in ISKCON is not exceptional.
This happens in every organisation. So, I would say that, that generation is, we shouldn't, we shouldn't be too alarmed by that because that was very exceptional. I think now we are also learning to better care for devotees.
And we see many devotees who have been practising for 15, 20, 25, 30 years. And from, I would say from the second generation, there has been substantially a much greater longevity than in the first generation. Last question.
Yes. This is an optical illusion. When I came, I thought I started the class at 3.40. I was shocked.
Just on the topic of working together, volunteer organisations in ISKCON, we have to work with people on the idea that we have a common goal. Even if there are differences amongst us, we still have a common goal, common objective. So, we work together for that objective.
Outside of these kinds of organisations, like let's say when you are in high school or university or something, you see that people just form their own groups, not just because they have the same goal, but because they are all just kind of on the same wavelength, the same frequency. They have the same kind of personality. So naturally, they just gravitate together.
And it is easy for them to get along because they are just the same kind of people. They like being around people who are similar to them. So, there is not really that much of an effort to be with them because you just feel like I click with these people.
They get me. I understand them. It works very well.
But in a volunteer organisation, there are so many different kinds of people, not just in terms of abilities or drive or anything like that, but there are so many different types of personalities. And even though there is a common objective, it kind of feels like you are pushing against something to work with others who have completely different personalities to you. They just think in different ways, different ideas, different concepts.
And so, it just feels very unnatural when you are forced to work with people who are just so different to you. So, in that kind of environment, how can we, either from a management perspective or even from a congregation perspective, how can devotees work together like that? Because we have so many different personalities, although we have a common purpose, but still, personalities, natures of different individuals are very different. So, how can we work together? That's why Bhaktivinoda Thakur said that we need like-minded associations, not just devotees who are having the same goal of worshipping Krishna, but even within that, we need like-minded associations.
So, we will not always be able to work with those like-minded associations, but we need some like-minded associations. He said that some devotees, associating with them gives us strength, and some devotees, associating with them takes our strength. You know, when you finish a meeting, now, good it went off without too much incidents.
It feels like that. It's okay. That's how it is.
So, overall, it is our responsibility to balance our association in such a way that we get enough strength giving association, and that is not more than the strength giving association. We cannot have all like-minded devotees. Because the community is diverse, but we cannot constantly work with unlike-minded devotees.
We will feel drained by that. So, we have to have some like-minded associations somewhere. It's our responsibility to find that and cherish that.
So, I tend to read, I'm more of an intellectual, so I need intellectual association. And that association, the kind of issues I will discuss, I'm not discussing that with general devotees. And so, if I expect general devotees to start discussing intellectual issues, it's not so obvious.
Why are you discussing this? It doesn't make any sense to us. But, if I don't discuss that, I'll feel troubled. So, I have devoted friends in different parts of the world, with whom I exchange personality.
And that is where that associative organisation strength. So, it's our responsibility to keep ourselves nourished. Diversity is just a fact of the material world now.
More and more, we live in a multicultural world. In the outer world also, there's a lot of diversity. Within the devotee community also, we have a lot of diversity.
So, we will have to work with people of different temperaments. At the same time, it is our responsibility to keep ourselves nourished. So, I can't demand that everybody be like-minded like me.
But at the same time, I can't deny that I have this kind of mind, I have this kind of nature. And I need somebody who can understand me. So, generally, if we have some senior devotee who understands our nature, even if they don't know exactly our nature, but they understand our nature, and we have some equals, that helps a lot.
But even if it's one equal or one senior, that also is a beginning point. And as far as diverse people working together, I think it brings some excitement. It helps us to learn a lot.
There are many devotees who… I know one devotee who worked as a brahmachari, who was a brahmachari ashram manager for around 10-12 years. And then, he decided to change his ashram. So, now they're thinking, where will he get a job? Because he did not have a reasonably good education, but 10-12 years was a blank.
So, what will he do? So, then the devotee said, he actually has now become a hotel manager, and he has shot up in 10 years to a very high position. If you can manage brahmacharis in a temple, who come from different backgrounds, you can manage any kind of people. So, it is a learning experience.
To work with different kinds of people, and it is actually a very valuable skill to learn, to work with different people. You may not relish working with various kinds of people, but it learns and it helps us to grow also. So, okay.
We'll stop here. You have one question? Okay, last question. That's what is misleading.
My question was, sometimes when you're in a leadership or management position, and you've been there for a while, a by-product can be, you know, so sometimes that can actually, you know, so it's bad for your own growth, because you start developing pride and so forth. And sometimes also happens that you've been there also far too long. From a congregational point of view, it's actually not great because you get stagnancy, you don't get growth, you don't get new ideas, you know, innovation, new thought.
So, how does one get that balance right, whereby, you know, you're there for long enough to contribute productively, but not to add wealth, and at the same time it doesn't jeopardise the growth and development of the organisation. So, at what point do you sort of draw a line and actually be able to walk away from that? So, if you stay in a leadership position for a good amount of time, we may develop a Ishwara Bhava controlling mentality. At the same time, we may also stagnate because we don't have so much room for innovation.
It's not necessary that we have to develop Ishwara Bhava, because if we do it in the mode of service, actually that way, when a person becomes a spiritual master, there's so much possibility to develop Ishwara Bhava. Although we are not meant to be the controllers, but in service of the supreme controller, we have to become controllers. When I'm giving class, in a sense, so many people are paying attention to me.
Krishna is the ultimate centre of attention. But one who is speaking about Krishna becomes the centre of attention for some people. So, it depends on what our attitude is.
If we're doing it in the mode of service to Krishna, then it doesn't need to lead to Ishwara Bhava. And in fact, Ishwara Bhava is considered one of the characteristics of Kshatriya. दानं इश्वर भावस्च शात्रं कर्म सभावज़ So, the Kshatriya, it's a desirable quality.
Ishwara Bhava. The Kshatriya is meant to control, is meant to lead. If the Kshatriya does not have that initiative, you do this, you do this, you do this, there'll be no organisation and community.
So, somebody has to do that. Kshatriya does it in a dharmic context. So, Ishwara Bhava itself is not necessarily a negative thing.
It's only when that Ishwara Bhava makes us forget Ishwara. Yes, I am controlling, but I'm controlling in the service of the Supreme Controller. Then that's fine.
Now, as far as innovation is concerned, I don't necessarily see it that way. Sometimes, the more established we become in a community, we may get more resources to actually do something new. If we are alone and we are a small person, how much can we innovate also? Of course, another issue with that is, if we are an established community, we are others' eyes on us, and if we try something new, we might be criticised for that.
We may be more under scrutiny because of that. But in general, to innovate also, we need some amount of facility, some amount of influence. And in the leadership position, we get that.
So, it depends on what kind of innovation we need to do. And sometimes, walking away from the leadership position may be an extreme measure. But sometimes we may decide, okay, now this has been set up.
Now, we may outsource or delegate some of our responsibility rather than take up some new challenge. There are some devotees who like to do that. There are some people who just are startup specialists.
They start up a company, help it to grow, then sell it and go and start up another company. So, I know there's one devotee who is a temple builder, basically. He goes to a place and he just supervises the whole construction.
Helps with fundraising, not so much, but supervises the whole construction. And makes sure that everything gets done. Says it was three, four years, and then goes to the next temple.
Like that, one temple, second temple, third temple. Some devotees want some challenges like that. That can be accommodated within the devotee community also.
So, if we feel that need for challenge is not getting fulfilled, then we don't have to walk away. We can just delegate something and try something new also. Thank you very much.
Prabhupada Ki Jai. Gaur Bhakt Vrindaki Jai. Gaur Premade Jai.