Committing is not limiting – it is elevating

[Congregation program at Melbourne, Australia] Video:

Hare Krishna. Thank you for coming today afternoon. And I will speak today on the topic of committing is not limiting.

It is elevating. The backdrop for this topic is that when we have some religious… Am I audible behind? So, when we have some religious inclination or some spiritual interest, at that time we may explore, read this book, go to visit that organisation, hear this teacher. And over a period of time, I like this about this, I like this here.

And then we may explore like this, which is just natural. But from that exploration, many people hesitate to take the next step. Which is committing to follow a spiritual path.

I want to be broad minded. I want to be broad minded and I want to look for good in everything. And in fact when, what 25, 20, 25 years ago when I started practising Bhakti Yoga seriously, I decided to take the monastic life.

So at that time my uncle told me, why are you following, why are you joining an organisation? You read many different teachers. You take the best and create your own path. And you become your own teacher.

So this, people feel that why are you limiting yourself? They think that if you commit to one path, then you have to be narrow minded. You have to be close minded. You don't adopt appreciating the good in other paths.

Be open minded. Don't become narrow minded. Yes, that is true.

We don't want to become narrow minded or close minded at all. At the same time, we can't be so open minded that our brains fall out. What does it mean we can't be so open minded? Open mindedness has a purpose.

It's like, if we want to eat food, we have to open our mouth. But after the food comes in, we have to close our mouth. If we keep the mouth open itself, the food will come, but the food will not go in.

Similarly, minds have to be open, so that some knowledge is taken in. But after that, they have to close. Not in the sense of becoming close minded, but they have to close in the sense that they have to become focused.

That's how learning happens. Let's look at this in 2-3 everyday examples. And then we'll move to transcendence.

Say, somebody is digging for gold. They may hear, oh, in this area, there is gold. And in the start off, initially, they may think, okay, let me try digging the earth over here, use a machine to find out what kind of topsoil is there.

Now, if once they find, okay, in this area, there is gold. Then, there will be some gold in the surface, but eventually, to get gold, one has to dig deep. If somebody wants water from the earth, then they want to build a well.

Now, digging at 10 different places will not give them any water. But digging at one place will give them water. Because by digging at one place, for the same amount of time that they were digging at 10 different places, they'll go deep, and they'll be able to reach the water.

So, in a sense, when somebody decides, okay, I want to dig at this place only, that means they're limiting. Okay, I'm not going to dig at this place, not at this place, not at this place. Which is true, we are limiting.

But at the same time, that is not limiting, that is focussing. So, what in one sense can be seen as called as limiting, in another sense is focussing. Imagine if a war is going on, and there's a radar, and there are security guards who are observing.

Are there any hostile aeroplanes, hostile missiles coming? And they'll be scanning the whole sky. Is there a danger here, here, here? Alert. So, openness to scan the whole area of defence, area to be defended is important.

But at the same time, as soon as some signal is detected, then there has to be zero in on that. And when there's zero in on it, in one sense, it is limiting. There's a whole vast sky, but instead of looking at that vast sky, we're going to focus on one point.

So, if we are thinking from the perspective of everything else, we are limiting. Oh, you're not looking here, you're not looking there, not looking there. But, if the object of interest is here, then that is not limiting.

That is focussing. So, basically, what appears limiting, and what appears focussing, that will depend on what is the object. What is the object? What is it that we are interested in? Suppose, somebody is sometimes, when working, people have a big screen, and there are four or five windows open.

Something is here, something is there, something is here. We look a little bit here, look a little bit here, keep track of this, keep track of that. And then we are watching.

But if something is very important, say, an exam is coming up, you need to study. Then, we just minimise all the windows, have the text that we are studying, full screen, and focus on that. So, at that time, we are not studying other things, we are not reading other things, we are not watching anything else.

That's limiting. But it's not limiting, it's also focussing. So, if our interest is in everything else, then it will appear as if going towards one thing is limiting.

But, if what we are going towards is the object of our interest, then it is not limiting, it is focussing. And, this principle, that what is limitation and what is absorption or concentration, that is largely a matter of perspective. And, in any field that we may take, there has to be some kind of focus.

If we study, if we choose a career, at that time, initially we may study all subjects till the 10th or the 12th, but after that, we will start studying specific subjects. When we start studying specific subjects, say, we go into science or arts or commerce or whatever science and humanities may be there, we choose a particular course. So, that is limiting.

But, it is also focussing. So, in a sense, if we want to go deep into any field, focus is required. And, that is because we are finite units.

We have finite time, finite energy, finite intelligence. And, this finite time, energy and intelligence needs to be productively invested. So, a part of productive investment of finite time energy is that we focus it.

So, in every field where we go, without focus, there is no depth. If I come into this room, I look at all of you, yes, I can notice all of you. It is a broad vision.

But, if after the class, if one of you wants to talk with me, then I will have to focus on you. If at that time, I am looking at everyone else, then I cannot have a conversation with you. So, similarly, there is a time when a broad vision is required.

And, there is a time when a focused vision is required. So, focussing is not limiting. Focussing actually helps us to connect better, to go deeper.

And, that is how we move forward. Suppose, in today's world, people are, in many ways, averse to commitment. They don't like commitment in any area.

Suppose, we meet someone, and then we start talking with them. Are you married? They say, yes. So, who is your spouse? No, I am married in general.

What do you mean married in general? There is no married in general. Marriage is particular. You marry one person.

So, marriage, at one level, is a commitment. It is a limiting. But then, in that limitation, there can be a deeper connection.

If somebody says, I am married in general, that means there is no marriage at all. So, in every field of life, if you want to go deeper, if you want to connect deeper, then, at that time, there has to be focus. And, the same principle applies to spiritual life.

I was at an interfaith meeting in Washington, D.C., last year. And, there, now, a common trend in the western world is what is called SBNR. Have any of you heard of this? SBNR? Yes.

People are very proud to say, I am spiritual, but not religious. And, their idea is, spiritual means you are broad-minded, open to experiences. And, religious means, you are dogmatic, you impose yourself on others, you are narrow-minded, ritualistic, blind faith.

They say, I don't want to have anything like this. Because, I am spiritual, but not religious. Now, in one sense, this thought, which is quite widespread in the western world, and even in India, slowly, it is coming up.

It is because people have had a lot of negative experiences with religion. They feel religion causes strife, religion causes violence, religion makes people narrow-minded. So, better, I don't want to be religious.

However, terms have different meanings in different contexts. So, now, those who are on the spiritual, but not religious path, what they say is, they want to explore. So, there is one pastor, he was telling about how this is post-modern world.

In the post-modern world, it is very difficult to connect with people. So, he was at a radio show. There was a pastor, there was a rabbi, and there was an imam.

And, they were all having a talk on faith. So, there was a man who came and asked a question. And, he said, I am a Christian, but I don't go to any church.

And then, so, the pastor very cautiously asked him, can I know why you don't go to any church? He said, I haven't yet found any church that agrees with my philosophy. Now, what does it mean? That means, I have already got my philosophy, and what I want is, some church which just rectifies my philosophy. So, people are not going to any organisation to learn something.

I already know, if somebody else agrees with me, I will go along with that. So, this is, people who are like this, they are not spiritual seekers. They are spiritual shoppers.

Who is a spiritual shopper? When you go for shopping, at that time, we are the choosers, we are the deciders. We will go to a big shop, this is here, this is here, this is here. There are 100 varieties of dresses, 100 varieties of cosmetics, and we choose the one which we want for enhancing our looks, for enhancing our house, whatever.

So, when we go for shopping, the idea is, that it's based on our preferences. What we want, as per our tastes, as per our preferences, that's what we will take. Which is fine.

We all have our individual personalities, and according to our tastes, preferences, we will choose certain things. But, suppose, somebody is going for shopping, and he says, okay, where are you going? He says, I am going for shopping. Okay, what are you shopping? I am shopping for some medicines.

Okay. Normally, as I said, okay, this medicine, this pack doesn't look very good. This medicine, I don't like the name of this medicine.

This medicine, you open it, taste it. I don't know what it is. Now, if we start selecting medicines based on their looks, their taste, their names, now, that is not going to cure us.

So, basically, there is a difference between when we are taking, when we are shopping, according to our preferences, and when we are going to take a medicine. The medicine is to be taken not as per preference, but as per prescription. That's the fundamental difference between a medicine and any other luxury product that we may shop.

So, now, this brings us to the point now, why should we actually go to any religious organisation or any spiritual path? Different people can have different understandings. So, some people see religion and spirituality as a social cosmetic. So, if in a, if there is a society which is pious, relatively speaking, and in that society, if somebody is religious, then, oh, just a nice person, you are religious also, you go to the temple also.

In India, there are many VIPs who go to the temples, who come to, say, we have the Juhu swan temple, very well known. So, many VIPs come to the Juhu temple just once a year. Janmashtami.

And quite often, it's good that they are coming at least on Janmashtami, but for many of them, we don't know inside their heart, but for many people, without any specific names, it's like, they may be coming not so much to take darshan, but to give darshan. They want to show the whole world, see how pious I am. So, they come to the temple, and when they come to the temple, they are more eager than they are to take darshan of the lord, they are more eager to have a good selfie.

You know, okay, where can I have a nice selfie? Take a picture over there. Then I'll share it on my Instagram, share it on my Facebook, and I get so many likes for this. Oh, and Janmashtami, we went to the temple.

So now, in this case, for them, religion is not something which is going to add value to their life, in terms of they are going to learn something more, they are going to enrich themselves with wisdom, or higher experience. Religion is like a cosmetic. It's something which makes me look good in people's eyes, in the world's eyes.

If that is the attitude of people towards religion, then, naturally, they will choose based on preference. And, yes, you know, going to this, I go to this organisation, I go to that organisation also, I go to that organisation also, oh, you know, you are so spiritual and you are so open, you go to so many different places. So what happens? For them, because it's a cosmetic, then whatever looks good, they will do that.

And beyond that, there is no purpose for them. I was invited once to a Ganesh Utsav. The Ganesh is one, Ganesh Puja is very big in Maharashtra.

So in Mumbai, Pune. So I was invited there to speak on the Gita. So when I went there and then had darshan of Ganesh, and then when I had darshan, I found that in that Ganesh Pandal, which was there, there was loud music, and that music was not any bhajans of Ganesh, it was Bollywood songs.

So then I was a little surprised. Then after the talk, I asked the organisers, so I said that, how is it that if it's a Ganesh Utsav, you have Ganesh songs. No, no, no, Ganesh is Bhaktavatsar.

Ganesh loves his devotees. And because he loves his devotees, he loves whatever his devotees love. So because the people who come here like Bollywood songs, we put Bollywood songs.

Now, this is a perversion of the understanding of Bhaktavatsar. Yes, God's love for us is unconditional. But unconditional love means that whatever we do, we are loved.

Not that whatever we do is loved. The two are different things. Whatever we do, we are loved.

And whatever we do is loved. Say, parents have a child, and the child is very mischievous. The child one day runs away from home.

The child goes and plays in the middle of the streets. Now, whatever the child does, the parents will love the child. But it is not that the child goes and plays in the middle of the streets and the parents say, I love you, continue doing this.

No. Love means there has to be some restriction. Love involves some amount of commitment.

So, it is, yes, unconditional love means that, yes, there is God's love irrespective of what we do. But, where is our love? Our love is when we reciprocate. If we continue to do whatever we are doing and say, God loves me.

That is okay, but there is no reciprocation of love in that. So, there was a, at the same interfaith, there was one Christian who had come to, initially, when the Christian conceptual movement started in the western world, many people thought that this is a strange cult from India. Some people even thought that, oh, these people love to brainwash us.

So, there was this, in Ireland, there was one Christian scholar who came to a temple. Actually, he was very hostile but the devotees cultivated him, made friends with him. And he had come for a conference to a particular place.

The devotees organised some programmes for him. And he was staying in the temple. And he stayed in the temple and sometimes come in the morning, just attend the aarti, look at what is going on.

He stayed for a week. The devotees took care of him very nicely. And when he was going, he asked, how was your experience? He said, very challenging experience.

Now, normally, if we host someone at our house, we hope your stay was good. It was very challenging. What do you mean, very challenging? What happened? So, he said, he said, do you know what happened? He said, no, no, no.

Everything, you took care of me very nicely. But this was very challenging for my conceptions. Because they had that idea, many Christians have that idea, Jesus is the only way.

I am the light and the truth and the path and none shall go to the father except through me. So, then, this is the only way. And, he said, when I came here, I had that conception.

But, when I saw all these devotees, waking up in the mornings, doing the aarti, doing, going about their services, doing their worship, he said, I cannot deny that there is devotion over here. So, how can they be so devoted unless they are experiencing God? So, in that sense, for my preconceptions, it was challenging. So, he said that, in Christianity, we talk a lot about how God loves us.

How Jesus loves us. But he said, by being with you people, I have understood how we should love God. There is both ways.

Yes, God loves us, that's wonderful, but we also have to express our commitment. We also have to devote ourselves. So, practising, exploring the spiritual path, there is an exploring phase, but eventually, there is a phase when we need to go beyond exploration if we are to experience enlightenment or enrichment.

We have to get deeper understanding. We have to get deeper experiences. Then there has to be a phase when we commit ourselves.

And that commitment actually helps us rise to a higher level of consciousness. So, now, it's not that by committing to a particular path, we are necessarily becoming narrow-minded or rejecting other paths. It is possible, but it is not essential.

There is a difference between being focused and narrow-minded. And there is a difference between being open-minded and being uncommitted. Open-minded is not equal to uncommitted.

And close-minded is not equal to focused. So, how do we understand this? I'll take a couple of examples. Say, somebody wants to climb up a mountain.

Now, they are at the bottom of the mountain. Initially, when they want to climb a mountain, they might go across the foothills to explore. Which path is feasible? This path is too slippery.

I cannot go through this. This path is too steep. This path… I think I can go by this path.

So, when they are exploring, they will be going below the mountain. Once they start walking, once they start moving, that's okay. So, once they start moving up, once they decide, this is the path I'm going to follow, then, they have to stick to that path.

They can't go maybe one-third of the way along this path. Thank you. So, they go one-third along the way.

Now, they have to explore some other path. Then, they try to come back again, or they will try to go another path. Then again, that will take a long, long time, and they will not go up.

Now, when somebody decides to take one path to go up the mountain, that doesn't mean necessarily they are rejecting other paths. They are not saying necessarily the other paths are all false. All that they are deciding is, so, narrow-minded means, my path is the only path up the mountain.

So, that is not what I'm saying. This is the path which I'm choosing. This is my understanding, my situation.

This is the path that works best for me. And the purpose of that path is to go up to the mountain. Others may be going up to the mountain by another path.

So, broadly speaking, we could say, with respect to spiritual exploration, there can be three different schools of thought. One is called as exclusivism. So, most of the Abrahamic religions, their mainstream versions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, they usually have this exclusivist idea.

Exclusivism means, my way is the only way. This is the path to God. And if you don't follow it, you're not going to go to God.

And there are some exclusivist religions and there are some extremist versions of exclusivist religions. So, exclusivists say that if you're not following this path, you're going to go to hell. And extremists say, you're not only going to go to hell, we will help you get there faster.

We will help you get there faster. So, this is the idea that somebody says, this is the only way up the mountain. And anybody tries to go any other way, we'll shoot you.

Everybody has to come this way only. That's their mind. That why should, if the absolute is unlimited, then why should the ways to the absolute be limited to only one? So, this exclusivism doesn't make sense.

But then some people go to the other extreme, if you consider a pendulum, one pendulum is called exclusivist. The other end of the pendulum could be pluralist. Now, pluralist means, there are many different ways.

And extreme version of pluralist is that there are many ways, there are as many ways as there are people. And whichever way you follow, that is your way. Once Prabhupada was asked by somebody in America, he said, Swamiji, I don't know the words, but I heard that Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that whatever path you follow, you'll come to me.

Prabhupada replied, then why did Krishna have to speak the Gita? If whatever you're going to do, you're going to come to Krishna, then Krishna doesn't have to speak anything at all. Now, this also is, it might seem very broad-minded, oh, whatever path you follow, that is your path. Of course, everyone has free will.

And religion can never be coerced. Nobody can be forced to follow a particular path. We're not talking about whether somebody practises or not.

We're talking about the principle only. In principle, does it make sense to say that whichever path one follows, that is their path and that will take them to perfection? It's like saying, I am here and at the top of the mountain here. Now, there can be many different paths to the top of the mountain, but that doesn't mean every path is a path to the top of the mountain.

There's some path which will take me away from the mountain also. There's some path which might take me to some underground tunnel, catacombs at the end of the mountain. So, there has to be some objective criteria to understand where the path is taking us.

Yes, we may have some device where we measure our height above sea level. I mean, look at it. I took this path earlier than this height and I can say, okay, this path is taking me up.

This path is taking me up. So, similarly, if we are to follow a spiritual path, this pluralist idea is that all paths are right. Now, it sounds broad-minded, but it is what I said, empty-minded.

It doesn't work anywhere in life. So, the more proper understanding is not exclusivism or pluralism, but inclusivism. Inclusivism is actually, we can say there is one path and there are many levels on that path.

One path in the sense that there is one purpose. Somebody at the bottom of the mountain, they have one purpose to go to the top of the mountain. Now, how exactly they will go to the top of the mountain? We can go from this path, we can go from this path, but the point is we have to go to the top of the mountain.

So, inclusivism means, yes, there is one purpose which is inclusive of various paths. But it is not that it is inclusive of all paths. Because if it is inclusive of all paths, there is an inherent logical fallacy in this.

If all paths are right, so then all paths are like a universal set. Now, among all paths are right, this is statement A. And then somebody makes statement B. My path is the only right path. So, if all paths are right, then this path is also one path, isn't it? It is also included in all paths.

This path says, only my path is right. So, if A is right, then B also must be right. If all paths are right, then the path which says only my path is right, that should also be right.

So, if A is right, B must be right. But if B is right, then A must be wrong. If only my path is right, then all paths are right, can't be right.

So, this is a logical self-contradiction. That's why, all paths are right, it might seem very politically right. Or you know, very politically correct.

But, it is philosophically totally incorrect. It just doesn't make any philosophical or logical sense. So, inclusivism means there is one purpose to rise from the bottom or the mountain to the top of the mountain.

And then we follow a path to rise to the top of the mountain. So, when we start practising spirituality, at that time, it's important for us, okay, we explore the bottom of the mountain. But then, it's important that we take a path up the mountain.

So, the Krishna Consciousness movement is a part of an ancient tradition, which draws itself from the Vedic texts, which are the oldest sacred texts known to humanity. And, in the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says, Many, many people in the past have, by this knowledge, become purified. They become purified and they have attained.

So, when we start committing ourselves to a particular spiritual path, before we commit, we have a right to explore. Yes, explore this, explore that. But eventually, if we want to go deeper, if we want to experience enlightenment, if we want to experience enrichment, if we want to gain deeper understanding, deeper experience, then commitment is vital.

And that commitment doesn't have to be in a narrow-minded way, where we are fanatical. We don't reject other paths. We just say that, this is the path I am following.

Now, other paths, each path, we may have to, if somebody asks you a question, what do you think about this path, what do you think about that path? In each path, we will have to evaluate based on what it is teaching. The Bhagavad Gita doesn't have this idea that this is the only path I have to follow, everything else is false. It says that there are three modes of material nature.

The mode of goodness, the mode of passion, and the mode of ignorance. And, according to the way people are living, the path is classified. Some people may be following a path by which their lifestyle becomes more harmonious, more peaceful, less filled with agitation.

They learn to become a little more regulated. That is good. From there, they are rising up.

So, when we commit ourselves, essentially, what are we doing? We are not limiting ourselves. We are opening the path for elevating ourselves. And, there is so much enrichment to be had when we choose to elevate ourselves.

When we start practising bhakti, or start practising one path in a committed way, at that time, we start digging deeper. Our… prior to that, our spiritual explorations would just be simply like curiosity. Let's go to this temple.

Let's go to this organisation. Let's hear this talk. It's all curiosity.

Curiosity is good, but curiosity itself is not spirituality. So, it's like, okay, how is this path at the top of the mountain? How is this path at the top of the mountain? But eventually, we have to climb up that mountain. Otherwise, if we just stay just at the level of curiosity, there will be no deeper experience.

It will be like a cosmetic. Oh, I saw this. I saw that.

I saw that. If somebody says that, you know, last… If somebody is, say, 35, 40, and he says, in the last 15 years, I have been going to 15 different universities, and in each university, finally, I have started a course, I did it for 6 months, and I went to another university. You got the experience of studying in 15 universities, but you did not get a degree anywhere.

You commit oneself. So, when we commit ourselves, then we start experiencing the transformation within us. I'll conclude with the last example, and then you can ask some questions.

So, I said earlier that the difference between being a spiritual seeker and a spiritual shopper. When we are a spiritual shopper, it's all based on our preferences. But when we are a spiritual seeker, it's based not just on preferences, but on prescription.

It's like taking a medicine. Now, even when we are taking a medicine, we may choose based on our preference. That means, if I decide, when I am sick, and I have to go to a doctor, I may choose.

Should I go to this doctor, or this doctor? Should I take allopathy, or should I take naturopathy? Should I take homoeopathy, or should I take that? Whatever it is. So, there is a scope for choosing. Definitely.

But, once we start a treatment, then, at that time, we need to commit. And it's not that when we start taking the treatment, we have a lifelong commitment. At least for some time.

Okay, if I go to a doctor, and doctor tells me, that if I have got stomach pain, the doctor tells me that, you have to cut your leg. What? This doesn't make sense. Why do I have to cut my leg when my stomach pain is there? Because the doctor says it doesn't make any sense, it will not follow at all.

But, if the doctor gives a diagnosis, it makes sense. There is too much acidity in your stomach. Now, take this medicines, take it for a week, it will be alright.

At that time, if I take that medicine for one day, and I say, it's not feeling so good, let me go to another doctor. And like that, for 7 days, we may go to 7 doctors. All that we will get is 7 bills.

Isn't it? And we will not get any cure at all. So, for a reasonable amount of time, when we commit ourselves, that's where, we start experiencing whether the treatment works or not. And if the treatment doesn't work, then we can move on to some other doctor.

So, for all of us, when we are exploring spirituality, it's important to know which phase we are at. If I am at the pre-treatment phase, and deciding which doctor to go to, it's fine. But then we can't stay in the pre-treatment phase for our lifetime.

Of course, our life will also not have much time. If we are having a serious disease, and we don't take treatment, we may end our life very soon. So, if I am in the pre-treatment phase, I am exploring, okay.

But, from the pre-treatment phase, if I want the treatment, there is commitment which is required. And just as, when we take treatment, we offer commitment to a treatment, then what happens? We start becoming healthier. Similarly, when we commit ourselves to a spiritual path, we will become spiritually healthier.

Spiritually healthier means two things. First is, the unwanted desires, cravings, thoughts, which keep troubling us, they will start decreasing. It can be anger, it can be greed, it can be depression, it can be fear.

These will slowly start decreasing. Associated with that might be certain cravings. There might be craving for alcohol, craving for smoking, craving for this, craving for that.

You will find those cravings will go down. And that, if that happens to us, that itself is an indication, something is working. The treatment is working.

And the other thing that will happen is, just like, if we are taking a good medicine, what happens? Our weakness, our pain, our discomfort, it will go away. And the second thing that will happen is, our energy will return. I start feeling more energy.

Yes, I can do this. I don't feel so tired. Similarly, as we start practise committing ourselves to the path of Krishna Consciousness, we will experience that the positivity within us will increase.

The energy to focus on constructive things. Our attraction to transcendence, ultimately our attraction to Krishna, that will increase. So the attraction to the positive will increase and the captivation by the negative will decrease.

And when these two start happening, that itself will be an indication for us that I am on the right path. So when we commit ourselves, say, going to going to one satsang, going to chanting one mantra, studying one book, it is not that we are necessarily making the judgement that others are wrong. It is just that when somebody goes to one doctor and takes a treatment, that doesn't necessarily mean they are saying other treatments are wrong.

No, this is the treatment I want to take right now. And if you follow this, the process of bhakti has worked for thousands and thousands of people all over the world. I was in Salt Lake City and there Salt Lake City is in America.

It is in a there is one state, Utah, which is a Mormon province. Mormon is a group of Christians who are considered heterodox by mainstream Christianity. But now they are becoming spreading quite a bit and they are being accepted.

So this person, he came for my programme once when I was there in Salt Lake City and he said that he is a father, he is a pastor in protestant religion, protestant Christianity. He is actually a travelling preacher over there. And he designs courses about how the Bible is to be studied, how is the Bible to be taught.

Very well known person. So he said once he was going for a talk and there somebody gave him Bhagavad Gita. A devotee gave him Bhagavad Gita.

And he took it and said, now I will read it and I will find out how to refute it. And in the future courses I will teach how to refute the Bhagavad Gita. So he took it for that purpose.

But then when he started reading it he said, the first chapter itself, for many western people when they get the Bhagavad Gita the first chapter, they can't pronounce the words Dhritarashtra, Dhrishtadyumna. It becomes very difficult. One of my devotee friends, he distributes books to western people.

So he tells them, start reading the Bhagavad Gita for the second chapter. Because first chapter is too overwhelming for them. And what happens, all those complicated names that are there in the first chapter, sometimes people come with their conceptions.

They think maybe this is a book like fiction and all these complicated name characters are going to come throughout this book. I can't connect with these characters only. But actually all those names only come in the first chapter.

Subsequently, it's only Krishna and Arjuna. So anyway, he started reading the Gita and he said, I couldn't make sense of it. So he started googling, what is this Bhagavad Gita? I want to know about it.

Then he came to, I have a website called Gita Daily that I write on the Gita every day. So he started writing on that. And he started reading that, subscribed for that and he said, he was telling me that, I started reading it and he said, 90% of what you say, I fully agree with it.

It is the same thing which I have got to teach. And then as he started reading it, he started going to some temples also. And he said, devotees always had this bag with them.

He said, these are prayer beads. And he was amazed. He says, so, why do you keep this bag always with you? He said, we chant.

Yeah, that's fine. But why do you need it all the time? Because we chant 2 hours. 2 hours? He said, 2 hours? We don't pray for 2 hours, even in a week.

For them, prayer is 2-3 minutes in a day. 5 minutes in a day. It amounts to maybe 40-50 minutes in a week.

And why do you do this? So he decided, I want to have this complete experience. So he said, I also chant. Now, he, although he is a Christian pastor, he also had some issues with smoking.

His doctor told him, your smoking is going out of control and your lungs are in great danger. So he tried many times to give up smoking, but he just couldn't give it up. And then, after that, he started chanting.

And within 3-4 days after chanting, he stopped smoking. At that time, he couldn't correlate. Because he thought that chanting was an experiment and smoking was trying to give up all the time.

So he just thought, okay, I'll develop my more willpower now. I'll give it up. And then he decided as an experiment to chant for one month.

He said, I'll go the full programme. So he chanted 16 rounds every day. And he said, I didn't experience much while chanting.

But, during that one month, he had no craving to smoke. And, after that, he, one month experiment over, he stopped chanting. And then, within a day, the craving for smoking suddenly came back.

What happened? He thought, oh, my willpower has increased. Why has my willpower gone away? What happened suddenly? For so many days, there was no craving. So, then, he started thinking about, is it that this chanting is helping me to give up smoking? He started chanting again and his urge for smoking simply went away.

And then, he said, they say smoking is injurious for your health. Chanting is beneficial for your health. So then, he said that, when I had met him at that time, he said, I am at a crossroads.

When I teach Christianity to people, he said, personally, I have experienced the potency of chanting Hare Krishna. So, I am thinking, what I should do? So then, he talked with me, he talked with several of the senior devotees. And now, he has decided that he is going to continue teaching Christianity as a profession.

But, personally, he is going to be a Hare Krishna devotee. Now, why like that? Because there is a purpose for it. He could just become fully a Hare Krishna devotee.

Personally, of course, it's his job. That's what he is paid for and he earns by that. He has a family.

But more importantly, he felt that, because he already has a respectable position in Christianity, so, if from that position, he said, I can at least talk to people on vegetableness. I can encourage people. Prabhupada often says, thou shalt not kill.

You take that as a commandment to say people, stop eating meat. So, he said, there is a lot of scriptural basis in the Bible and in the biblical tradition to encourage people towards vegetarianism. So, if I become a Hare Krishna externally, then they will say, you already lost our faith.

You have given up our faith. Then, I will have no credibility among them. But, if I keep teaching Christianity as a profession, and there are also many human values, many basic moral values, which people learn through that.

And some people also get attracted towards Jesus and they become more devoted to God. So, through that, I can reach a far larger number of people and help them to elevate their consciousness upwards. And then he decided, what is the encouragement for that? So, the idea is, we are not here to increase the ranks of any particular organisation.

Our purpose is to help people to raise their consciousness. To rise from a more self-centred, materialistic consciousness to a more selfless spiritual consciousness. Now, how exactly people do that? That is up to every individual situation.

Just like we are at the bottom of the mountain, help people to rise to the top of the mountain. We ourselves rise to the top of the mountain and we help others to rise to the top of the mountain. So, the commitment, I told the story, that for him, he experienced the enrichment, the transformation by the commitment.

Because he committed for one month to chanting, he experienced the transformation. It is not that he got great taste for chanting. It is just that he experienced the effect of chanting in terms of the creation.

So, in this way, this process, which is a time-honoured process of spiritual elevation, is available for all of us. And when we commit ourselves to it, we are not limiting ourselves, we are elevating ourselves. To summarise, I spoke about committing ourselves is not limiting but it is elevating.

I started by talking about how in today's world, people feel I want to be spiritual but not religious because being spiritual is open-minded and religious is being narrow-minded. So, there is a difference, however, that we need to be open-minded but not so open-minded that our brains fall out. So, being open-minded is not the same as being uncommitted.

Being narrow-minded is not the same as being focused. Now, I talked about when we are digging for gold or water, we have to focus and dig at one place. A, we are trying to develop a career, studying a field.

We have to study in one area. If we are exploring a relationship, we have to commit to one person. So, commitment is what takes us deeper into it.

In the case of consciousness, commitment to a spiritual path is what raises us up. So, when we are in the stage of spiritual shopping, at that time, our idea is religion or spirituality, whatever word we use, it is more of a preference for cosmetic purposes. And then I choose whatever makes me feel good.

So, I go to a spiritual place just as a photo-op. Not to take darshan of the Divine but to give my darshan to people. So, in that situation, there is no alleviation that I want.

But if I want to experience the potential of enrichment and enlightenment that spirituality offers, then there has to be commitment. And the example I took of a mountain, that from the bottom of the mountain to the top of the mountain, there are many different paths. But we have to choose one path to get to the top of the mountain.

The bottom of the mountain is material consciousness. The top is spiritual consciousness. So, exclusivism holds that my path is the only path.

And that is what many people think of as religion and they get turned off by that. Now, this is not only narrow-minded to say my way is the only way. It is also actually it is very conducive or it is a cause of extremism.

From exclusivism, extremism can easily come where people become intolerant towards others and won't even destroy others. But if you go to the other extreme of the pendulum and say all paths are fine. Whatever you follow, that is your path.

That is pluralism. And that extreme can lead to empty-mindedness where you say any path which I take, that will take me up the mountain. But the path will take me away from the mountain also.

So, all paths are right. That is logically also not sustainable. Because one path is, only my path is right.

And if only my path is right, all paths can't be right. So, the correct understanding is inclusivism. There is one purpose to go to the top of the mountain and there can be different paths.

And there are objective yardsticks. Whether the path is taking me up the mountain is my height above sea level increasing. So, if we are following a spiritual path, there are two objective criteria.

One is, are the negative, distressing cravings within us and the habits coming from them, say, anger, greed, fearfulness, negativity, are these increasing? And is our attraction to the divine increasing? So, when we commit ourselves, we give an opportunity to elevate ourselves. Unconditional love doesn't mean whatever we do is love. Whatever we do, we are love.

And we express our love in reciprocation through commitment. And by such commitment, any and every one of us can experience enrichment and enlightenment. A deeper sense of satisfaction and a deeper sense of meaning and purpose in our life.

And I conclude with the story of this Christian preacher who experienced upliftment, transformation, freedom from his cravings by the commitment to chant Hare Krishna. So, we don't have to reject other paths in order to focus on one path. It's like when we take a treatment, other treatments may also work.

But, I am going to focus on this treatment. So, we need to move from the preference phase, where we explore, to the prescription phase, where we do what is prescribed and then if we experience the benefits, we continue. If we don't experience the benefits, we can always explore some other path.

But if we don't commit, then we will never rise higher. And we will never actually experience spirituality. We will just stay at the level of curiosity and we will miss out on the enrichment and enlightenment that spirituality offers.

Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Are there any questions or comments? Yes, please.

Hare Krishna Guru, thank you very much for a very encouraging lecture. Thank you for that. I was just wondering, if one wants to advance towards curiosity and enlightenment, let me take a step back.

What one should do? Thank you. So, how can one rise from curiosity to commitment stage? Broadly speaking, you can say there are four principles which you call A, B, C, D. Association of spiritually minded people. If you come regularly to a programme, that association itself gives us spiritual energy, spiritual inspiration, spiritual environment.

So, B is books, Bhagavad Gita, and there are many books based on the Bhagavad Gita. We read those books regularly. Association can come once a week or whatever frequency is feasible for us.

But books we can read wherever we are. C is chanting. We chant the holy names of Krishna, the Hare Krishna mantra.

And D is deity worship. That we make our home into temple, like we have deities over deities, we offer the bhoga to the deities, and then we take their prasad, their reverence as our prasad. So, if we do these four things, that itself is moving from the curiosity stage to the commitment stage.

Any other questions? Yes. Can you only say that in this Bible and the Quran, they are like a small dictionary and Bhagavad Gita is like a big dictionary. We hear this in many lectures.

So, a problem at one place is that there are so many mistakes in these literatures. So, how do we understand this, like, is it really the case or, I mean, because when we talk to the people of different faiths, so, how can we relate Bhagavad Gita with this? So, as I mentioned, Bible and Quran are like a small dictionary, Bhagavad Gita is like a big dictionary. Aditya Prabhupada also said that in the Bible and Quran, there are many mistakes.

So, how do we connect with people who are of other faiths? I don't think the example is that Bhagavad Gita is like a big dictionary, Vedas are the big dictionary, not the Bhagavad Gita specifically. Bhagavad Gita is a small book. As compared to the Bible, Bhagavad Gita is super small.

So, you cannot compare the Bhagavad Gita to an unabridged dictionary. The Bhagavad Gita is a summary of the Vedas, the essence of the Vedas. See, there is a, sometimes this explanation I gave in this book, I was talking with one of my friends who is quite a Hindu nationalist kind of person.

So, he added some articles and compiled them in a book and he gave that. I went through the whole book and he said, what do you like about yourself? I said, I like this, that our Vedas are like the big dictionary, their books are like a small dictionary. See, that means he is not really interested in spirituality, he is just interested in more on patting oneself on the back, you know, we are too great.

Well, our purpose is not to pat ourselves on the back, our purpose is to raise ourselves up. That is what is important to us. So, this point, that first of all, what do we mean when we say pocket dictionary and unabridged dictionary? It is not necessarily meaning that the Vedas are better than the Bible in the book.

Now, sometimes, if you don't know how to use an unabridged dictionary, you know, I read an article about has the run run amok? What it means is, the word run has 600 meanings. It is the word in English which has maximum meanings. So, now, if a small child is just learning dictionary, learning words, it says run, 600 meanings.

It will take a lifetime to read it for that childhood. So, for a child, a pocket dictionary is good. So, it is not necessary that an unabridged dictionary is always better.

The pocket dictionary can also be good for some purposes. So, the Vedas are Omniform. Omniform means that, like we have uniform, Omniform.

Omniform means they have prescriptions for people at many different levels. So, whatever level you are at, from there, this you can do to raise yourself. From this level, you can do this to raise yourself.

From this level, you can do this to raise yourself. So, if a pocket dictionary, this run, has this meaning. Now, for many people, for most purposes, a pocket dictionary's meaning will be enough.

But, there will be situations when we will read something and, okay, that meaningful pocket dictionary doesn't make sense. So, then, we have to go to unabridged dictionary. Which meaning fits over there? That requires some sophistication to understand.

So, similarly, for many people, who are not very metaphysical, who are not very philosophical, who are not very intellectual, just need some basic moral principles and they need to mould their life accordingly. For them, what the Bible and Quran teaches, that may be adequate for their elevation. Now, there is a difference between what the Bible and Quran teaches and what Christians, Christianity itself has had many philosophers.

And, today, in analytical philosophy, the branch of philosophy, it is Christians who actually brought God back into philosophy. Otherwise, most philosophers had, most philosophy department thought that God is, as Misha said, God is dead. That God is irrelevant.

The idea of God is just a myth. There are many Christians who as individuals are very good philosophers. But, their philosophy does not come from the Bible.

Their philosophy comes from pre-biblical thinkers like Aristotle, Plato. So, St. Augustine was a prominent Christian theologian who integrated the biblical thought with Socratic thought, Platonic thought. And, Thomas Aquinas was another prominent Christian theologian who integrated biblical thought with Aristotle thought.

So, there is a lot of philosophy among Christians. But, there is not much philosophy in the Bible. There is a difference between these two things.

Now, with respect to the Vedas, because it is omniform, it is more inclusive. The Bible is like, you have to follow this path or there is no other way for it. But, the Bhagavad Gita, which is the essence of the Vedas, the broad Vedas, there are many different paths for many different people.

If you can't do this, do this. There are so many Devatas one can worship. Now, of course, there is a gradation.

And, if a person wants to get the supreme perfection, there is a particular path that is recommended. But, in general, the Vedic literature has more inclusiveness. Because, many people can't worship one God, there are other Devatas one can worship and they can be elevated by that.

But, just an unabridged dictionary can lead to confusion. Similarly, the Vedas can also lead to a lot of confusion among people. So, in that sense, we have to appreciate that wherever people are, they need to be elevated.

And, whatever works for them, that is fine. And, the we do appreciate that the same one absolute truth who is given the Vedas is also given the other revelations. But, here, there is much greater accommodation of different people at different levels.

As well as, there is much deeper revolution of the spiritual level of reality. Who God is, what God does, how He reciprocates love with His devotees. That revelation is more.

So, we could say in some ways, these are all paths up the mountain. But, this path has some extra support systems by which you can go up the mountain more with greater inspiration. Oh, what is there at the top of the mountain, I know.

So, I can go up. So, there are greater support systems in the path of Bhakti Yoga as is revealed through the Vedic Vaishnav, Gauri Vaishnav literature. But, beyond that, we don't have to be negligent or dismissive of the other paths.

They are also paths for emanation. Now, the other part about Prabhupada saying that the Bible and the Quran have some mistakes in them. We have to, whenever we speak anything, yesterday, I elaborately in the question and answer, I explained that.

We have to speak to people according to the level of authority they can accept. It is called the Pramana. So, if you want to tell someone, you are not the body, you are the soul.

And, they say that. Okay, who says so? Bhagavad Gita says so. What is the Bhagavad Gita? It is a book of wisdom from India.

You keep it in India, I am not interested. Why would they want to accept that? If those people are, if they are scientifically minded, then we may have to give scientific evidence, past life memories, consciousness studies. So, we have to see what Pramana, what authority a person is ready to accept.

And, based on that authority we proceed. So, now, how do we know that there are mistakes in any book? We have to compare what that book says with some other source of knowledge. So, if I say, oh, this map is wrong.

How do I know the map is wrong? I went to that place and I found that landmark is not there. So, to say that something is wrong, we have to have the statement and we have to have the reality. And we compare the reality and the statement and then we can say it is wrong.

So, now, if you want to go into that zone of criticising the Bible and the Quran because, oh, this mistake is there, that mistake is there, that mistake is there. Well, tomorrow you may be able to apply, people may want to apply that same to the Vedas also. Now, this is the reality and you say, this is about the galaxy, this is about cosmology, you say about this.

So, all is wrong. So, once we start, if at all one is targeting people of a particular faith, who have deep faith in their particular tradition, then we have to study their tradition and then respond with it. Simplistically, condemning or criticising other traditions, there are so many mistakes in your book, there are so many mistakes in your book also.

Now, if we go deeper, we can explain that this is not actually a mistake, this is the way to understand this. And they will also say, this is the way to understand this. Therefore, I have not seen Prabhupada except for a few places when he is talking to insiders, highlight this point that the Bible and the Quran are mistakes.

And even if there are, unless we know what they specifically are, unless we know what the Christian explanations for those are, there are scholars over there also who also have addressed those issues. So, I think just making this a categorical statement to judge any literature, it's a two-edged sword. It can be used against someone, it can be used against others.

So, basically, we have to be clear about the purpose. When we study the scriptures, what are we coming here for? We are coming to transform ourselves. We are coming to elevate ourselves.

And, if we are experiencing that benefit, we share that benefit with others. And, yes, scriptures give much material knowledge also. But, that material knowledge is not what is primarily important.

Say, in the Vedic literature, there are Vimanas that are described. Ramana took a Pushpaka Vimana. Ramana flew by a plane.

Somebody may say, oh, in the Vedas, in the Ramayana, there is a description of aeroplanes. So, all this aeroplane and technology was known to us in the past. All that we know is that there were aeroplanes there.

Now, what technology was used, how it was made, we don't know anything about it. Now, Prabhupada did not come from India to the West to tell people that in the Vedas there are aeroplanes also. He came to tell how to raise our consciousness.

So, now, yes, this is there and if somebody has a specific interest, they can study Vimana Shastra, they can understand that and they can say how there is a lot of material knowledge also in the scriptures. And then, there is a whole field. Is this material knowledge correct? Is this wrong? But, that is not the essence.

If we consider scripture knowledge to take a big circle, in this scripture knowledge, there will be some sector which agrees with what our empirical knowledge says, empirical or scientific knowledge says. There will be one sector which disagrees with what scientific knowledge says. But, the major part of it will be what transcends whatever empirical knowledge says.

At an empirical level, we can't say whether there is a spiritual world or not. It can be either proven or disproven. So, if we look at our own lives, it is this part of scriptural knowledge that matters the most to us in our practise.

That which transcends material knowledge. So, if that is what matters the most to us, let's focus on that. So, if we focus on that, then, we offer something to people which will benefit them, which will add value to their life, which will give them deeper experience.

And these other two parts, they can be investigated separately. They don't have to be highlighted. So, the part which agrees with modern science or gives more advanced than modern science, that can be investigated to help people develop more faith.

By which they can come to the that which transcends empirical ways of acquiring knowledge. And that which appears to be contradictory or that which is differing from, that we have to address in a proper way so that that doesn't become an obstacle for people to come to the transcendent. So, when we say there are mistakes, what does it mean? If we apply the same paradigm to the Bible, the mistakes will mean in this circle there is something which is wrong.

But most people who follow the Bible, how many people are studying the Bible or living according to the Bible because the Bible says something about when the earth was created. There are some group of Christians called young earth creationists who say that earth was created 6000 years ago. There is not a very large group of Christians.

But people who follow Christianity today, they are not following the Bible because it says it was 6000 years old. That is irrelevant for them. That is because Christianity offers them a community, Christianity offers them some piety.

There are so many other reasons why people practise any particular path. So, if we are clear in our purpose, then we will be clear in what we need to convey to people. So, yes, it is best not to get into criticising any particular religions or texts.

You can focus more on presenting what we are offering. And if people feel benefited by that, if people find it makes sense to them and it benefits them, then they will take it. Any other questions? Yes.

Thank you. Thank you, Babaji, for explaining very nicely how to identify at what stage are you and how open-minded can you afford to be. My question is that if you have explored, you have decided to be focused on one path, does it mean that you should stop being open-minded or how much can you afford to be open-minded or is it that until and unless you attain a specific stage, only then you become open-minded, otherwise it can impact your focus.

Good question. So, if you are committed to a particular path, should we stop being open-minded in order to stay focused? I wouldn't say stop being open-minded because as in we can be open-minded and we can still be focused. The idea is that say, now as we all have limited time, energy and other resources, intelligence and other things.

So, if I have apart from my family responsibilities, professional roles, whatever I have, I have a few hours a week, then I can go for a spiritual programme, I can read some books. So, if in that time if I decide to read Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavad Gita is not a very big book, but still it requires time to understand. So, if I decide to read Bhagavad Gita for one week and then tomorrow I decide I'll read some other book next week, then I'll read some other book next week, then I will not grow much.

So, to be focused means that we make sure that we devote quality time for one path. That means we read one book regularly, we come to one satsang regularly, we chant one mantra regularly. Now, while doing that, in our social circles, if there are some other people who are following some other path, we're just talking with them.

There's nothing wrong with that. We don't have to go out of our way to explore those paths. We don't have to read some other book, spend time in reading that book, or we don't have to necessarily chant other mantras.

We don't have to, if somebody is following some other path, then not to criticise that. There is no need to reject that. We can just, if they want to talk about it, we can talk about it.

We don't have to necessarily follow that. If they are interested in what we are sharing, what we are practising, we can share that. So, basically, whatever time we have for spiritual practises, that we focus on committing to one path.

And during the routine course of our life, because now we live in a multicultural world, so we will encounter other paths, people from other faith traditions, or people following reading some other books. So, in the routine course, we encounter that. We can be open-minded about that.

I don't mind hearing about it. That doesn't necessarily mean I am going to follow it. It just means that I am open to hearing it.

We don't have to immediately become judgemental. Oh, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Just as a part of social interactions, whatever is required, we do that.

But the time that we have for spiritual life, we commit that for focussing on one path. When we become narrow-minded is, as soon as anybody mentions any other path, we start criticising, this is wrong, this is this, this is that. And then anybody whom we meet, we start telling them, Jatari Krishna, come this, there is this.

There is a time to tell that. But we have to do it in a discreet way. I remember when I was newly introduced, I was, I just got a job in a company and I used to go in a bus to the company.

And then, during the bus, usually I would chant, I would hear some lecture, I would read a book. So then, one of my colleagues, on one of my trips, it was about a 45-minute trip, he made the mistake of asking me, what are you doing? And as soon as he asked me what I was doing, for the next 45 minutes, I gave him a lecture. And it was not just some simple lecture, we have this Science of Self-Realisation six-session course.

So six sessions, I crunched into 45 minutes. And then after that, whenever, we both would, I would board the bus before. So when the bus would stop at the next point, I would peep in through the door, see where I was sitting and come from the other door.

So, it took me some time to realise that I did odd things at that time. So, if we start dumping everything on people, downloading everything on people, then it becomes a problem. But, normally sharing is fine.

You tell something about your faith, they tell about their faith. And then, you just keep recording it. If they are more interested, then you can tell them.

Did I answer your question? Yes. So, you talked about the category of SBNR. It's a very growing section of society, even in Australia and generally the rest of the world.

So, my question is, is it possible to remain or grow spiritually and not become religious at the same time? So, is it possible to grow spiritually without becoming religious? It depends on terminology. If we see spirituality as meaning a level of awareness. Like, I said, top of the mountain, bottom of the mountain.

Spirituality is the level at the top of the mountain. At the bottom of the level is material consciousness. So, now, to go to the top of the mountain, anybody who wants to go there has to follow some path.

And the path that they follow will be their religion. So, religion is the path to be followed to rise to spiritual consciousness. Religion is not just some demographic designation.

Religion is meant to be a process, a set of practises. And the practises are meant to raise us to spiritual consciousness. So, if we follow the practises properly, we will get elevated.

Now, otherwise, if somebody doesn't follow anything at all, that means they are staying at the bottom of the mountain. They are not rising up. So, even people who say that they are spiritual, but not religious, they basically mean that we don't want to commit to any organised religion.

We want to be syncretic. Syncretic means take different things from different and just do what we feel inspired to. Now, it will have to see if by that, they are rising from the mode of ignorance to the mode of passion.

From the mode of passion to the mode of goodness. The lifestyle is becoming more regulated. That may help.

So, in principle, whatever path we follow to come to spirituality, that is our religion. So, for somebody, people have very strange ideas. I met a person on a flight.

He said, I am a spiritual aroma therapist. So, he said, So, he said, I teach what kind of aroma you should have in your conscious, in your life, what kind of perfume you should wear, what kind of things you should keep in your home. By that, you can have a spiritual consciousness.

Now, okay. Yes, there might be some, relatively speaking, there may be some aroma, some smells which might make us more agitated. Some smells might make us more peaceful.

But, that is not intrinsically spiritual. But, because of that, if because of that, somebody starts keeping their environment more clean, and living in a more sattvic way, limited elevation will be there. So, in principle, one has to follow something to become spiritual.

In practise, we have to see what they are following and what is the effect of that on their consciousness. So, in general, people who say that they are spiritual but not religious, they are not anti-religious person. They are just tired of religion.

Maybe religion causes this problem, that problem, that problem, and that's why I don't want to involve it. But, if they see people who are religious and they are also open-minded, they are intelligent, they are rational, then they find open for it. Many of them.

Thank you. Yes, please. What I would like to know is, it's your own way of life, when you are actually following a path, because our Hindu religion has got lots of demigods, there are lots of Devi Devata, and of course, like, when you have got family surroundings and places, you actually go, you are following a path, but when you go to the temple, you are going to Durga temple, you are going to Shri Shankar, you are going to Sai Baba, there are so many other paths as well.

So, but of course, I understand that we don't need to criticise the other beliefs, and same would apply to ours as well, but how do you actually manage and still grow yourself while being in that kind of environment, because the clash still would be there within our own religion as well, because then they would say, how do you think Krishna would actually take you to that pathway, and then you can say, Krishna is the supreme owner, and the other gods are demigods, and that becomes the clash.