How to have loving exchanges 1 – Understanding frame of reference

[Retreat at Sydney, Australia]

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Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna So, thank you very much for coming today and I will speak on the topic of how to have loving exchanges with each other and I will give a little background. Recently in the last few years I have been travelling across the world but I have been talking with devotees who are doing counselling not just counsellors but also devotees who have some professional counsellor training I have a few of them.
I have met some people who are into who are counsellors in general religious groups I was at an interfaith meeting and one of the things which struck me is several devotee counsellors also told me that what we need very much for growing spiritually growing together as a community we need a stronger and deeper relationship among each other in fact there is a great need within the devotee community also for warm heart to heart exchanges and what happens is that in some ways when you start practising bhakti our lifestyle and our way of living becomes significantly different from that of the rest of the world so when we don’t share many of the things that most other people are doing then what we do we can share only with each other with other devotees in fact many people come to Krishna or come in general to spirituality for a sense of community for sense of belonging to a broader bigger community and Sri Prabhupada in the lecture of instruction writes that the Krishna consciousness movement is nourished by the sixfold loving exchanges so which are these six exchanges? which are the exchanges? yes, hearing confidentially and speaking confidentially these are primarily related to the speech then giving food and taking food and lastly giving gifts and receiving gifts giving gifts and receiving gifts yes, thank you so now at one level this might appear to be very simple what does the bhakti saam the updesha must say so now when there is love affection or kindness any emotion that is there in the heart how do we come to know that that emotion is actually there I was recently and I was speaking on the yoga of the heart there was a question asked by a student he says what is the proof that god exists so I said ok, before that what is the proof that your mother loves you what do you mean? he says what is the scientific proof that god exists ok, what is the scientific proof that your mother loves you so can you get a love-o-metre and put it in your mother’s heart and see the reading oh, you really love me so explain that different things need to be proven in different ways if I say right now the time in India is 7 o’clock, 7.30 now you can confirm it you can just ask google you can go on global watch time you can check it there are certain things which can be objectively quantified and that quantification can be verified but there are many things which need to be inferred we cannot objectively quantify them and love is one such thing it cannot be quantified we can’t have a love-o-metre because love is not a mathematical quantity it is real but it is not mathematically measurable so it needs to be inferred just like we can infer how do you know my mother loves me when I was sick, my mother was awake all night taking care of me whenever I asked her for anything she was always there to help me when I needed so by 100 incidents in my life I can infer from them that my mother loves me but these are inferences so we cannot mathematically quantify similarly whenever we need when it is said Lakshana means it is a characteristic so we may care for each other we may not care for each other but it is whether what is there in our heart how will people come to know it is through the way we act I was recently at the memorial of a devotee devotee had passed a very wonderful devotee in Mumbai part of the Raghoban community so many devotees spoke about how that devotee had appreciated them had helped them in their spiritual life assisted them, encouraged them so after everybody spoke then Radhakumar leader of the community over there Maharaj said I just spoke a few words about that devotee and then he said that all of you spoke so movingly so wonderfully appreciating this devotee how many of you appreciated him when he was alive we often have appreciation within us but we don’t express it and what happens is it is there in the heart everybody needs understanding everybody needs encouragement everybody needs appreciation but when it is not expressed then it is not even known that it is there so what we are trying to do is that when we have a loving exchange we will be focussing on primarily what we have talked about so far as far as giving prasad and taking prasad we do it abundantly that is one thing I don’t think there is any shortage of that within our movement as far as giving gifts and receiving gifts is concerned whenever there are appropriate occasions we do that but we will talk most about having exchanges I met a devotee in London that devotee has now become he is a devotee he is a prominent preacher but he is also learning psychotherapy and he wants to also serve the broader community as a psychotherapist so he was telling me that often we talk about that how there are so many mental health problems in today’s world and so many people need to visit psychologist so he was telling me that people go to psychologist not because we might use the word mad in a very extreme sense most of the time people go to psychologist because they want to unload they want to unload they are just so lonely and they want someone to whom they can speak and especially someone who can hear them non-judgementally so loneliness is a very big problem in today’s world and if we have affectionate relationships then that loneliness will be countered because we will have someone with whom we can share but if it is not there then what may happen is that although we are in a devotee community but if we have certain challenges we have certain challenges there are certain things which we are going through we all have certain standards which we are expected to practise and if we are not able to follow those standards for some reason then we may feel if I talk this with someone then people will look down at me therefore I can’t talk about this and then we are struggling ourselves but also we are struggling because we are not getting any help from others so sometimes our culture today itself is to some extent self-paced and we stay at various distances the culture itself creates a lot of isolation but on top of that sometimes our attempt to adhere to high spiritual standards that can create further isolation because of which although we come together for festivals we chant and dance and sing in kirtans how much our hearts come closer to each other and Prabhupada says one of the seven purposes of ISKCON is to bring people closer to each other and closer to Krishna it’s interesting not just closer to Krishna closer to each other and closer to Krishna so it’s generally the closer we come to devotees not in a sentimental sense but in a deep devotional sense by that what will happen is because that will be one more bond which will connect us with Krishna so we have a vertical bond with Krishna by our sadhana bhakti but our associative devotees are like horizontal bonds which are also connected with the vertical bonds so to the extent we can have many many bonds like that we can move forward so one of the purposes of learning about loving exchanges is to deepen our connections with each other now relationships is such a topic that if there is one thing in this world which keeps us humble that is relationships just when we think we have got a hang of a particular thing something happens and suddenly something happens what happened so actually relationships are what to some extent we keep learning throughout our lives how to work in relationships so I am by no means an expert in this but I have been learning and as I have been observing interacting, studying the scripture and trying to understand human psychology especially psychology so I will be doing this from three different perspectives this is the background so we will be primarily talking about some values which I will explain with powerpoint shortly but along with that I will be talking about some pastimes from Chaitanya Charita Amrita and these values are not directly it is not that for one value there will be one pastime the pastime in an organic way reflects how Chaitanya Mahaprabhu had loving exchanges with devotees so depending on time I will talk about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s exchanges with Narada Goswami and then Haridas Thakur and then with Rupa Goswami we will see how much detail we can go into each of these but there we will see so these six loving exchanges were what actually continued the Gaudiya Vaishnav legacy of the Chaitanya Mahaprabhu department historians of religion say that actually Gaudiya Vaishnavism was like an ideal system for disaster after Chaitanya Mahaprabhu why an ideal system or a system means an ideal setup rather because normally whenever any leader departs there is always a crisis of succession how succession will take place one generation to another and normally to formalise and to make sure the process of succession happens the leader does three things they start an organisation they write some books and they name some successors otherwise there can be chaos in the case of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu he did not do any of these three things Chaitanya Mahaprabhu never started any organisation there was no official like we have the International Society of Krishna Consciousness we have Gaudiya Math Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did not start anything so there was no organisation Mahaprabhu did not write any books so what were his actual teachings otherwise people can have conflict actually this is the right thing so he did not write any books and on top of that he did not officially name any successors so if you consider if somebody starts a big company and they don’t do any of they don’t have a will they don’t name successors and they don’t have any formal structure also so it can lead to chaos so not only Gaudiya Vaishnavism survived but it actually thrived and spread far and wide how did that happen is primarily because Chaitanya Mahaprabhu his legacy was primarily in the hearts of his disciples so how he deeply entered into the hearts of his devotees and through that he carried on the legacy and it is associated with Prabhupada’s mood also actually the spiritual legacy the tradition, parampara is primarily a link of hearts it’s a link of hearts it’s not just a link of institutional affiliation institutional affiliation may be required at times but it’s primarily a link of hearts so these so it is through loving exchanges that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu bound the hearts of his followers to him and that’s how the legacy continued in fact we see in the last almost 18 years of his life Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s life he did not travel much he lived for 48 years first 24 years he was in Navadvi next 6 years he travelled next 18 years he was in Puri and how was he spreading his mission he was spreading his mission by inviting devotees to come there to Jagannath Puri and there he was having very intense intimate loving exchanges with the devotees and that’s how he for the first 6 years he spread the movement by travelling taking it to many many people but later on he spread further by entering deeper and deeper into the hearts of his followers through the loving exchanges he had with them so that’s the background who is operating this so basically these are the 3 main values being non-judgemental being sensitive and non-judgemental is sensitivity and intimacy that means broadly speaking how others are what others are doing we don’t judge we don’t impose our way of looking at them then when we have to speak something we share our heart we share our concerns about them we share our concerns about ourselves we do it in a sensitive way and by that we will have learn over the next 3 sessions you go ahead and this is for developing these values this is a point which will be falling back repeatedly on what does intelligence mean intelligence means to place things in the most constructive context in the most constructive frame of reference I will explain what I mean by this but this is vital understanding this that placing things in the right frame of reference is vital for us to connect with people to understand what they are doing and Prabhupada also in the Bhagavad Gita 10th chapter defines intelligence means to see things in their proper perspective proper perspective so we all look at things from different perspectives and if our frame of reference and another person’s frame of reference the two are very different then we just can’t understand what they are doing so we need to have some similarity in the frame of references so I will say a simple example of the frame of reference could be say in Gaunila where Chaitanya Mahaprabhu had manifested his devotion and one day he was just chanting the names of the Gopis Gopi, Gopi, Gopi and he is chanting the word Gopi chanting the names of the Gopis and he was living in community with many Brahmanas and most of the people over there were pious see generally we think of there are three modes Sattva, Rajas and Tamas and generally we consider lower mode like Rajas and Tamas to be filled with Maya if we are in the low passion ignorance we are in Maya but actually Sattva can also be a form of Maya where people are pious so most of the community in Navadvip at that time was around Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was pious and so a Brahmana was passing by he came to he saw Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and he heard him chanting Gopi, Gopi, Gopi and he went and started telling all the other Brahmanas and in which Shastra is it said that you should chant the Gopi, Gopi you should chant the names of Krishna and they already had certain annoyance with Chaitanya Mahaprabhu because they felt that he was young but he was so charismatic and he had become so popular so wherever he would go he was so scholarly first he had been scholarly now he had become devotional both ways as scholar he had outclassed them and now as a devotee he had so much personal so they already had some annoyance some resentment and generally the more famous you become just like in this world there are dualities if there is happiness there will be distress so the more fame you get the more criticism you become targeted by so even the smallest fault people will magnify it and people will try to find fault so now Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was looking for some reason to criticise him what is he doing? where is that said in Shastra? third you should chant the names of the Gopis and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with ecstasy remember the Gopis love for Krishna Krishna is loving actually with the Gopis and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu himself is Krishna in the mood of Radharani so especially he is personally experiencing the love of Radharani Krishna so he was in ecstasy when he was seeing him he felt exasperated by that he said that these people will never understand so he realised as long as they are seeing him from that level he is just another Brahmana like us I will not be able to communicate what I need to communicate with them so that small incident was one reason when he felt that I have to change the frame of reference that I have to listen to what I am trying to say then they will see me as a respectful sanyasi and then they will listen to what I am trying to say so what happened here so he was his frame of reference was the Gopis are exalted devotees of Krishna and remembering them is remembering deep levels of love for Krishna and the Brahmanas were coming from other frame of reference that was you have to follow Shastra so you have two different frames of reference one is looking for literal adherence to the letter of scripture and the other is a sublime fulfilment of the purpose of scripture so these two are very different frames of reference and with these two different frames of reference there is no communication I will talk a little bit later about how frames of reference when they are different it leads to problem of communication but this is an example so if you want to communicate with someone we need to understand what frame of reference they are coming from so going ahead just those three values we will understand in terms of reference now now what does non-judge mentality mean that we don’t see others through our frame of reference but rather we try to understand their frame of reference so ok why are you doing like this so now if those brahmana that brahmana could have asked him instead of telling criticising before everybody he is just chanting the name of Gopi if he had asked what are you doing so from his frame of reference all that he says he is a deviant he is doing something which is not told in Shastra so don’t impose your frame of reference on others don’t see others through your frame of reference but try to understand their frame of reference so it’s like say we are here we are in two rooms and it’s like a nice scenery we are having over here but we are in these two rooms and we cannot talk directly with each other but now we are seeing some scenery from one side from our room window they are seeing the scenery from their side of the window because we are having two different perspectives but what we are seeing is different we might say from here can you see this beautiful peacock is there over here peacock? I can’t see any peacock over here no the peacock is there there is a kangaroo over here there is no such kangaroo over here what? now you are looking from different frames so if we are in two different rooms with different windows so when we interact with people basically where how does I am not going to go in the direction of conflicts because conflict resolution is a big subject where we already have a relationship but we want to come closer in the relationship so the idea is when two people are looking from two different frames and then one person explains their frame to the other person they understand oh this is how you are looking at it then our understanding expands oh you think like this that is one way of looking at it so when we can start seeing more and more from others frame of reference then that is when we start bonding with each other more and more the more what we see from each person’s frame of reference varies the more there are likely to be disagreements the two frames of reference will never be identical that is impossible but the more the overlap the closer can be the mutual understanding and the less the overlap the greater will be the misunderstanding so first is non-judgmentality means do not see others through your frame of reference but try to understand their frame of reference how are they seeing this? why are they seeing like this? the second is sensitivity that means if our frame of reference what they are doing seems objectionable then speak it but speak it in a sensitive way don’t just dismiss that you are doing something wrong ok from your frame of reference it seems right from my frame of reference it seems like this so convey our frame of reference in a gentle way that intimacy means as I said when both of us can see each other’s frame of reference then we come close to each other so intimacy does not simply come by physical proximity it comes by similarity of mind when two people are like minded they can come together otherwise even though there is great physical proximity still there can be lot of alienation so broadly we will be looking at we will be trying to understand our own frame of reference understand other people’s frame of reference and try to see how we can bring this frame of reference closer and closer to each other so throughout this seminar I will speak for probably say 10-15 minutes one or two points and then we will have pause and we will have some reflections or questions so reflections means that any point that struck you any point you found this is very relevant for me or this is what I would like to share with others anything that struck you you could speak that it is not a question it is a reflection it is a shravan manan and nidhidhyasana shravan is we hear manan is we contemplate and nidhidhyasana is deeper contemplation for the purpose of application many times we hear classes and then we hear as soon as the class gets over and we start doing other things so we do not get time for reflection and deeper contemplation so the whole purpose of reflection is the retreat we do not want to rush through a lot of concepts we want to assimilate the concepts more and more every 10-15 minutes especially if it is not a past time I will stop and then we will have points for reflection so any reflections till now anything that struck you not a question right now reflection yeah please yeah alone alone yeah yeah yeah like mindedness yes yeah thank you so any one or two you would like to share anything that struck you anything that you felt was relevant for you yes please yes yeah so if we know speak to people and hear to them whatever they are saying they are more comfortable to express to us exactly what happens is that if we are non-judgemental then people lower their guards then they can open up more otherwise if you are non-judgemental then they become defensive more and more yes thank you yes that is true that is true yeah yeah that is true thank you non-judgemental we do not want to be judgemental but if we do not understand how we are being judgemental then it is very difficult to learn how to be non-judgemental yeah this frame of reference is a very striking perspective I will explain this further yeah thank you any one more point yes one more will come to you Durga ok mother you can speak then we can move on you can speak I think sometimes when people offer suggestions or you know sharing their thoughts honestly the other person may think that they are trying to oppose you know so it is very important to be non-judgemental in accepting suggestions and advices oh ok so you are taking from that other perspective when we are given advice also we should not feel that we are being judgemental that the other person is being judgemental I was in the middle east at one place my parents are never satisfied so I said why do you feel like that now we are very happy with her we are proud of her so I said that ok you know one day we said that so she was chanting some rounds and she chanted some more rounds so she told her mother that I chanted this many rounds mother said good I hope soon you will come to 16 rounds so his mother said when are you going to do this more so what has happened from her perspective I did something and appreciated mother said yes I appreciate and I encourage you to do more but how we perceive even appreciation that also has to be sometimes we may perceive from our own perspective so you need to be non-judgemental even in terms of accepting appreciation that is an interesting point sometimes I am thinking what does this person want from me so yeah it is a good point thank you yes you want to yes sure I just want to appreciate we stopped considering that there is one true friendship so in times of conflict we stopped considering that another person nothing happened yeah excellent point with our scientific frame of reference we are trained to look at objective reality and that is true but there is a objective reality in terms of say events or things but in terms of what those things mean to whom that is very subjective and that is why frame of reference is vital to understand I will talk about this a little bit later objective reality and subjectivity thank you very good point yes sir I don’t think it is on you can speak I will repeat otherwise I like that the height of non-judgemental my approach is when we want something to happen we always think we want that what happens when things when things don’t happen because everything is different so what happens sometimes we get angry I want it this way but you want it this way so with that what I noticed is if we ask them their view we see we we perceive in our frame of reference is what we what do you think what do you think this can be done so they define in their view in that way so we don’t have that attachment to that so what happens we lose attachment my experience with my peers I want things to be done my way of reference they say we don’t know the way we work this is not the way we need to do we have to do this so my intention we need to do that is possible with your frame of reference in that way I can I cannot be attached so makes me free from that attachment ok yes so if we can help people help see from others frame of reference and see how a particular thing can be done from their frame of reference then we can get the thing done at the same time not impose our frame of reference yeah good point that is why I said that we have to look at the most constructive frame of reference later on I will talk about in it comes to frames of reference it is not so much right and wrong it is what is most constructive or what is most effective I will talk about how different frames of reference can work at different levels thank you yeah thank you so much for bringing up non-judgmentality and amnesty this is a reflection and I am sure others echo the same especially as a preaching movement to be brought from people from other backgrounds I mean not simply the ones that you have brought up with and quite often I have thought of them going in the course of how they confronted with many of their past conditioning it happens quite often that when they try to seek shelter among people that maybe approach them or when they approach us it is very important to have non-judgmentality and amnesty that frame of reference because they were facing their past conditioning and that is a very important point I would like to address this also that say when people come from say some other religious or spiritual background and they come to Krishna and sometimes we may in a judgemental way tell them that that is wrong and we need to be aware of their frame of reference yeah so here there are three different things broadly speaking that there is being judgemental and there is being discriminating discriminating means it is actually required now the word discrimination has a negative connotation because racial discrimination gender discrimination but discriminating basically means the capacity to make distinctions say and in any field of expertise in any field expertise means the capacity to make distinctions say if somebody is a very good cook and there is somebody who has made halwa somebody has made good halwa and somebody has made excellent halwa so the difference is not very great somebody who is simply like a glutton they just eat halwa very nice but somebody who is a little connoisseur this was made like this this was made like this the capacity to spot certain distinctions is actually a sign of expertise and in that sense we can in the name of being non-judgemental we cannot be non-discriminating so we do need to discriminate if somebody has certain philosophical understanding which is not correct or having the cultural practise which is not proper or whatever we may need to tell them so when we say non-judgemental that does not mean we all have our frame of reference and everybody is in their favour everything is alright it’s not relativism it’s not metaphysical relativism everything is alright it’s just that that’s the first point second point is that when we want to tell someone if something is wrong we have to tell them in a way that makes sense to them if we don’t do that then we will simply alienate them I’ll give an example for this for most people people when they live in rajas and tamas then anything even of sattva even a little bit of sattva gives them some relief makes them feel good and maybe that is their only inkling of something spiritual see most people talk when they talk about spirituality also they have no idea what spirituality is I was recently in I think gold course I gave a class on what is spirituality so it’s a spirituality can refer to just a state of mind people say oh this place is so spiritual what do you mean? oh I feel so peaceful and nice when I come to the place so spirituality is a state of mind then spirituality can also be a level of reality that there is material and there is spiritual and third is spirituality can refer to practises that take that connect us with that higher level of reality and also give us that peaceful sweet state of mind so spirituality can refer to state of mind can refer to a level of reality and it can refer to practises that take us to that level of reality and provide the state of mind so now for most people their idea of spirituality is state of mind oh I feel so good when I go there I go and do some deep breathing and I feel so good I was in Singapore and one devotee said one person he said I have been doing laughter therapy this is go for a programme and the whole programme is laugh as loudly as you can he said I feel so good this is the most spiritual experience I have had ok now what happens is from their frame of reference spiritual means anything which makes me feel good from our frame of reference well you are not connecting with soul you are not connecting with Krishna you are not experiencing you are not rising to that higher level of reality so what is spiritual about it there is nothing spiritual so we might dismiss it there is nothing spiritual but for them it is a state of mind for us it is a level of reality which you want to go towards so what happens is for them because they primarily think of it as a state of mind and if anything makes them feel peaceful feel calm feel clear oh I want to do this so it is like somebody it is extremely cold and they have just got one thin tattered sheet of cloth to protect them from the cold and we we want to give them a nice thick soft comforter but we tell them you know this sheet just throw it away now that is the only protection from cold they have that is the only source of warmth they have even if that warmth is flimsy but still that is all that they have if we tell them to give it up they will start thinking we are their enemies now instead we just give them the comforter what happens that means give them an experience of Krishna let them come to temple let them come to some kirtan give them an experience of Krishna and once they put on that comforter and they start feeling oh this is so good then they themselves will think I don’t need I don’t need this sheet and they will discard it but sometimes our intention is to give people the comforter but in giving them the comforter we make them uncomfortable throw that away and not to throw that away pull it away so we don’t need to do that so we definitely want that they come to if they have some incomplete or incorrect understanding we want to correct them but it is mostly people don’t this is the third point I was going to make so first is that second is in terms of experience for most people it is experience that counts the most and third point is that for most people philosophy is not a major reason why they come to any spiritual path it is mostly various as I said community feeling good culture so many other things bring them to a particular path as a devotee in Canada he had done some kirtan he went to that a place new he was went to there a new place so he had a kirtan programme and he was following some path where there are demigods and there are semi gods semi gods is say me god I am god so some people claim I am god and there was a kirtan of this baba who claimed himself to be god and this devotee was saying I don’t want to go and do kirtan of some god man like that but then he thought they called we called them and they came how can I not go so he went there and when he went there at that time it’s a programme mostly for Indians but in general Indians are more interested in worship than the object of worship you want to come and do some kirtan whose kirtan is immaterial sometimes some people come to a temple and they fold their hands and pray so sincerely in front of the deities sometimes I feel I don’t pray to deities so sincerely so once it happened when I was in Pune long ago they prayed so sincerely and then when they were going out I was just outside they were asking me who is there on the altar so the point they are making over here is that philosophy is not a major reason why people choose a spiritual path and that’s why philosophy is not a major obstacle also people might be having some other philosophical understanding now when they come to Krishna their wrong philosophy may not obstruct them as much as our saying that their philosophy is wrong their wrong philosophy may not obstruct them as much as our saying that their philosophy is wrong and this is wrong such a great saint has said such a great spiritual teacher has said how can you call it wrong so if you just give them the right understanding gradually they will accept it and for them it is if they get a positive experience of Krishna Bhakti they will keep moving forward so being non-judgemental is not being sentimental or relativistic and accepting everything but trying to understand what makes them tick so if it for most people it is their experiences that make them tick and then if we can provide them better experiences then they will come to Krishna so it is very important to be at one level not be sentimental and say everything is alright but not judgemental and just dismissing people’s previous experiences rather we acknowledge their experiences and if we can offer them a better experience then they will surely come to Krishna thank you yes you had a question yeah right that’s true yeah exactly and we have to work in a team and we are all volunteers so if you don’t feel inspired we will not be we will not contribute much so we definitely need to we can’t necessarily accept everyone’s frame of reference but at least we acknowledge it So, then devotees feel, feel like participating. See, if there is no involvement, there will be no commitment. I was going to come to this principle later, but I will just mention it now.
If there is no involvement, if somebody does not feel, I am involved in this, that I am included in this, that my voice is heard, my contribution is valued, if there is no involvement, then there will be no commitment. So, that involvement comes by accepting. Yeah, that is also one way of looking at things.
You do not necessarily say that is the way we will all look at it, but we acknowledge that is also valid. At the same time, right now we are going to look at things in this way. So, it is important that we give people a sense of involvement and acknowledging their frame of reference is one very valuable way to help people feel validated.
Can you go ahead? So, I will speak a lot on frames of reference and then you have to go behind one minute. Just go back. I will talk about something later.
See, frame of reference means that every situation that we are in, it can be interpreted in different ways. Say, we are in a room and suddenly the light goes off. Now, we could say, oh, did somebody accidentally press the switch because the light went off? So, we are seeing an effect that light has gone off.
So, we could put it in that frame. Has somebody accidentally switched it off, switched off the bulb, turned off the switch? Or has that bulb gone off? This is God’s point. If that is not there, then maybe that is there.
If that is not there, do we have a master switch in the house? Has somebody accidentally switched off the master switch? If that is not there, then has the power supply itself gone on in our locality? We may ask our neighbours or someone. Beyond that, we may ask, oh, has the power plant itself shut down because of some reason, broken down for some reason? Or you could say, maybe some terrorists have attacked and they have destroyed all the power plants in the country. And power has broken down.
And what happens is, we could, now, it is not that any of these is wrong. Even that extreme thing which you are saying, a terrorist attack stopping all power in the country, that is also possible. In fact, you can go even further.
There is a phenomenon called solar flares. You know, A, from the sun, flares come out. And the solar flare comes very close to the earth.
Then, because of the solar flare’s energy, all electric and electronic appliances in the earth will shut down. And, I think it was 3 or 4 years ago, it happened in Canada, that the solar flare went very close to Canada. And for a few minutes, there was national outage.
So, that is, when our light goes off, there is a solar flare in the sun. You know, who is going to think about that? But, we live in an interconnected universe and things can be escalated to different levels. Now, which is the functionally effective level? That is what we have to find out.
So, normally, we could say, in this case, we go from smaller to bigger to bigger to bigger. Okay. As the switch goes on now, has that bulb itself gone off? And then we go bigger and bigger.
So, now, it is not that one or the other is right. It is just that which is the most effective. And all of us, based on our tendencies, we might choose a particular, we might default towards a particular frame of reference.
And then, our frame of reference will determine our response. So, let us look at an example. And then, I will give various responses that could be there.
And then you can tell me, what is the frame of reference over here, the person is having? Can you go ahead? Say, suppose we are going to for a meeting, we are going for a meeting to some place. And then, when we go to that meeting, that person does not, we are supposed to meet someone, that person does not come on time. So, now, these are four different responses.
So, that person is, he is so unpunctual. That is one response. Another response could be that, you know, no, that I am in this service, no one understands the importance of this service.
A third could be that everyone takes me for granted. Now, a fourth could be that, you know, whatever I do, nothing ever works smoothly. So, now, if you see, can you identify what is the first frame of reference? Broadly speaking, it is judging the other person.
Now, that person is late, that is true. Now, what are we doing from this incident? We are extrapolating. This person is unpunctual.
So, it is the other person centred perspective. Now, it is not wrong. I am just giving an example for the frame of reference.
It is that our frame of reference is centred on the other person. The second is centred on what? Service. It is centred on service, you know.
It is service centred. You know, this is not service centred in the necessary, not service attitude centred. It is saying that nobody takes this service seriously.
Nobody values this. So, it is, we are looking at it from a service perspective. You say, we have, we come, we have the temple, there is some vessel washing or some temple hall, temple maha cleaning.
And we get there and nobody has come over there. So, it is people are taking the service seriously. That could be one way of looking at it.
The third is what? Yeah, we are taking it personally. You know, I told you to come and you did not come. So, it is not just about you.
We are putting it to person. Nobody takes me seriously. Everybody takes me for granted.
So, it is something which is about how people relate with us. So, first is that person’s character judgement. Second is that service judgement.
Third is, you know, our, our relational judgement. And the fourth is, fourth is like we are judging about our whole life. Nothing in my life works.
So, you see the same incident, but you can have so many different references. I was in Connecticut. I was giving a seminar there.
The Connecticut government had organised something like spirituality and mental health. So, I was speaking from the bhakti yoga perspective. So, they were talking about people who had gone into depression.
And some of those people are also speaking. So, I was speaking with one girl afterwards. And she was telling that she was studying in a uni.
And along with that, she was also doing a job to get some money by the side. So, she was waiting tables in a hotel. And she was once carrying a glass of water to a client.
And that glass of water slipped from her hands. And it fell down. And she said, that triggered the depressive episode in me.
She said, if I can’t carry even a glass of water, what am I ever going to do in my life? And that set her off in depression. Now, how many of us, a glass of water slipped from our hands? Isn’t it? Almost every one of us. For once it happened to me, I was giving a class and I drank water.
And somebody asked a very surprising question. So, that surprise was over that the glass slipped from my hand. So, at least everybody woke up after that.
Nobody stayed asleep when that happened. But anyway, so we all had a glass slipping from our hands. But now what has happened? What she did was, a small incident, a glass of water slipping from the hands, just gave it the largest possible implications.
That is, I can’t do anything right in my life. Now, when we take the smallest of incidents and give it the largest of implications, that can be very unhealthy at times. So, usually for people who are inclined, who are depressive, who get depressed, this is what is happening.
When things go wrong in their life, small incidents, they put them in the very big references. And that is how they become dysfunctional. But I just gave this example to illustrate, how as one small incident could be put in very different frames of reference.
Now, this is with respect to how one person perceives themselves and perceives things happening to them. Now, let us look at another example of how a small difference of opinion, a small conflict can escalate wildly because of varying frames of reference. Can you go ahead? The same situation.
So, B does not come on time for a meeting with A. And finally, when they come, what does A say first thing? What does it say? Can you read it out? You are never on time. Now, what has A done? A has taken that from an incident, it has made a judgement about you. And then immediately B says, B also takes from the incident and generalises.
What does B generalise? You are always nagging me. So, now what has happened? The issue is forgotten. And it has become direct personal attacks on each other.
You are never on time and you are always nagging me. And then A says, you never hear what I am saying. A says, you are judging me and you are condemning me.
You never hear. I told you came late, you are not even hearing me. So, another attack on him.
You never hear what I am saying. And now what happens? Can you go ahead? So, A says, you never hear what I am saying. And then B starts thinking, why am I even working with you? I don’t even know what I ever saw in you.
You are such a pain. This is actually a very painful statement to hear. Somebody says, you are such a pain.
I don’t know what I ever saw in you. And it becomes, it’s not just an attack, it’s an even more personal attack. To say that you are unpunctual, to say that you are a nag.
That’s painful. But here what is happening, we are coming closer and closer. So, it’s like, when we cut, if somebody cuts hair, because hair doesn’t have any nerves, so cutting it doesn’t cause pain.
But whenever a cut is done, the closer it comes to the nerve, the more painful it becomes. It’s like sometimes a tooth has to be extracted or a root canal has to be done. So, sometimes you can just go deep into the tooth and there is no pain.
But sometimes you just go little into the tooth, if there is a nerve over there, the person will scream almost. So, what happens is, here both people are attacking each other and they are cutting closer and closer to the nerve. So, you nag me, that’s one thing.
But to say you are such a pain, that’s even more of a personal attack. It cuts too close to the nerve. And what happens? How dare you attack me? How dare you accuse me like this? He says, I am not going to work with you.
So, you are going towards a breakdown in the relationship itself. Then other person says, who are you to not work with me? I will kick you out. Just from one incident of being late, where it goes, it is broken down completely.
So, it’s all, so the person says, you are never on time. Okay, instead of that, from your frame of reference, it’s true that person didn’t come on time. But maybe there was traffic, maybe there was some crisis.
We don’t know why they are late. So, without understanding the frame of reference, when we judge, you are never on time. Now, maybe that person just came from a, maybe in their family they had an emergency and they somehow managed to come after, they are already very burdened.
And you tell them, you are never on time. Actually, the other person says, you are always nagging. At least I came, I had so much difficulty.
So, when we just insist on our frame of reference, and the other person insists on their frame of reference, small issues can lead to huge conflicts. Small issues can lead to huge conflicts. One of my friends in America is a marriage counsellor.
So, he was telling me that many times when people separate, sometimes they separate for the, for what can seem like the trivialest of reasons. So, he said that there was one woman, she came and she said, I want a divorce. He says, what happened? He says, they were living together, they married together, and they both had their own cars.
And he said, my husband took my car without my permission. How dare he do such a thing? He says, because of that you want a divorce? He says, no, he always takes me for granted. He takes everything of mine for granted.
So, the issue, if somebody is urgent, they take the other person’s car, that’s not something to break the relationship down. But what has happened is, see, when certain events happen, based on the other person’s frame of reference, what meaning they are ascribing to it. The meaning they are ascribing is, you don’t, you take me for granted, you don’t value me.
You presume that I am just there for you. So, each person, if you understand their frame of reference, then you will understand that certain thing may be very, very important for them. But if you don’t understand their frame of reference, from our frame of reference, yeah, okay, it’s to be done, but it’s not very important.
From the other person’s frame of reference, that may be extremely important. Now, if you understand the other person’s frame of reference, for us, to do that thing may not be very difficult. We can do it if we put a little bit of effort, but just because we don’t understand their frame of reference, we don’t understand that it’s important.
So, small conflicts can escalate to huge proportions if the frame of reference is not understood. And conversely, if the frame of reference is understood, small changes can actually bring big positivity to the relationship. In the small changes if we do, the interactions can become much smoother.
So, because from the frame of reference, a particular thing might be very important, and we understand why that is so important. So, this is about this frame of references and how to apply it in various perspectives. Any reflections on this? Yes.
Please. Yeah, here. I have a question.
I don’t know if it’s related to something. So, whatever I read, I want to share. So, this man has got an expensive car, and then he’s washing the car, and then he hits a kid.
The kid really, she doesn’t know the name of the car, because she’s a kid. And then what she did is she started writing on the car, it’s an expensive car, and she started making a scratch. And he got so annoyed, because it’s such an expensive car, he’s so angry, and he hit the kid with a hammer or something, and the hand broke.
And then they lost the house, they kind of hid it. After some time, he came and wanted to check the car, and then he realised what she was written is, I don’t know that. And then he got so annoyed, because she wanted to express.
She doesn’t know, with her frame of reference, she doesn’t know the value of the car, but she wanted to express that, that means, and then he’s gone, you know, and he thinks that she’s spoiling the car. So, unless we try to understand what they want to express, they won’t understand. If there’s a conflict, they won’t find it.
My God, not just a conflict, completely misunderstand even the best of intentions. That’s very sad. Yeah, thank you for that.
Anyone else? How about the sensitivity point group? Is that on? How about the sensitivity group? Where you mentioned, if you’re not sensitive to other person’s frame of reference, then it might cause issue. Whereas, if you try to understand where they are coming from, both perspectives might be right. So, we need to understand the most important frame of reference, and we go that way.
Yeah, most constructive. I wouldn’t say most important. Because sometimes, there might be a bigger issue also to be dealt with.
But right now, which is the most constructive? What is the way we can move forward right now? The bigger issue, that frame of reference is also important. But we can’t deal with it right now. Let’s deal with it later.
So, that’s most constructive. Yes, thank you. Yes, please.
Sometimes, we put ourselves in such a rush, that we don’t give the time to actually, it’s more about quantity or quality, even if it’s time for people, or relationships, or services. There’s just this constant pressure that we run from one thing to another. And we’re not able to kind of slow our thinking down, and kind of think, what is this other person trying to achieve or do? Because sometimes, we do all these extra pressures, and deadlines, and times, and everything that we do, searching from one thing to another, just trying to make big boxes, and big problems, and big problems.
And sometimes, that’s why it comes at the cost of the relationships, because then, at the end of the day, everything is done, but then people are not happy when they’re trying to achieve what they’re trying to achieve. So, it’s just the quality over quantity. Yes, very valid point.
What happens is, so, I’ll elaborate on this a little bit. Thank you for bringing this up. That sometimes, we have just too many things to do, and then we don’t consider people and their frame of reference at all.
And we get things done, but we are not satisfied. Others are also not satisfied. And we, now what happens is, that we, we pursue things at different levels.
Like Pramank was saying about subjective and objective. Let’s say that, not more than subjective and objective, it’s like, we have a low resolution conception of things, and a high resolution conception of things. Say, for example, first time, we buy a car, and the car itself is so special.
Then, when we drive in the car, we think, oh, I have my car, I’m owning the car, and then we look at, we want everybody else to see the car. So, the car is in the focus of our consciousness. But if we have, we had a car for a long time, and then we are driving a car, then when we get into the car, the car is just something which will get us where we want to go.
So, at that time, the car is there in our consciousness, but it’s a very low resolution conception, that it’s just a tool for me to come from here to there. But, when the car breaks down, then, oh, then we have to focus on the car. Okay, this is the machine, and I don’t know anything about the machine.
Now I have to, I have to get a, get a mechanic, or I have to take it to the mechanic, and then we have to fix it, and then, so what happens? Suddenly, that resolution zooms up. I know so little about it, I don’t know, do I know enough that the mechanic was not going to cheat me and swindle me of a lot of money. So, based in, based on the situation, for functional purposes, because we have so many things to do, so we have a, we can, our brain has finite capacities.
So, while, while functioning, we have low resolution conception of things, and that is required. So, similarly, while functioning, we have, we get a low resolution conception of people also. That, a low resolution conception of people means that, okay, if we are doing some service, then this person is meant to do A, B, C, D, E. This person is a person who will do this, this, this, this.
So, we reduce people to the tasks that they are meant to do. And, at a functional level, it is required. If we are doing a major, responsible thing, then, then, to consider that the thing that is to be done.
It is, it is, from a functional perspective, that is the only way we can function. But, we cannot have always that low resolution functional conception of people. There is a time when our focus has to shift to them.
A high resolution, low resolution conception means people are simply agents to get things done. A high resolution conception is that people are conscious beings with their emotions, their perspectives, their ideas, their dreams, their hopes. So, so, with respect to a car, we, we go into that high resolution only when the car breaks down.
Similarly, with people also, it is only when the relationship is breaking down, then we shift from the low resolution to the high resolution. When somebody, when, but instead of doing that, if we can recognise that there is, there are, you know, there can be, we can say that there are interactions with each other, they can be transactional and they can be transformational. Transactional means, okay, I do this, you do this, and we will get this done.
This is transaction basis. So, if we go to a shop and buy something, we tell, I want this, and they give it to us. So, there are experiments which have been done, that when people go to a, go to a shop and, you know, they, they give their bill, that is, I give, I give the bill and then they give the bill to the person and the person enters something on the computer and then, what they did is, the experiment was that while the person was waiting at the counter to, you give the list of items and they give us the, you give the money and then they give the bill back.
During that time, they had the person change over there. The person would, just go down to the chair and somebody else would come and sit over there. And, it is almost like, out of 10 people, 8 people would not even notice.
So, it is not that the person has got some change, the person has changed. So, you give the, you give the list of items to someone and then, the person who gives you money is different. But, we have very low resolution, low resolution conception of that.
And, there is somebody who will clear the bill. So, we do not even notice it. So, now, because our life is fast, so, we tend to have this low resolution conception of people.
And, functionally, it may be necessary. But, especially, in our close relationships or relationship that we want to make closer, we cannot function with a low resolution conception. That will lead to dissatisfaction, frustration and then, eventually, collision.
And, sometimes, at that time, if you go to a high resolution, when there is a collision happening, there is a breakdown happening. Then, going to a high resolution, it is much more complicated. Because, already, so many wounds have been inflicted.
So, if we can create regular periods of time, then, we focus on the relationship itself. That means, we focus on interacting with each other. So, we have a high resolution conception.
I was at a project where, there are many devotees who are working together and all of them are equals. So, what happens? If there is a hierarchy, if there is one person who is respected, then, if there are conflicts, you just resolve it, talk with each other. Just what that person says, we all accept it.
Even if some people are dissatisfied, we accept the authority. But, when equals are working together, it becomes more difficult. So, they have devised a system that every fortnight, there are four people who are the pioneers, there are four main people in the project, husband, wife, all eight of them, they come together once every fortnight or at the most once a month and they come and just discuss Krishna Katha.
It’s not that one person gives a class, it’s everybody speaks for five minutes and then others share some points also. So, the idea is when we are working together as a managerial team, then what happens, we inevitably get a transactional view of each other. This person is in charge of accounts, always so stingy, doesn’t sanction anything, always such a pain in the neck.
Somebody is in some other position of authority, this person is always so domineering. But, when we come together just for discussing Krishna Katha, then what happens is, we get a high resolution. When we hear that other person speaking about Krishna, speaking about their inspiration, speaking about things which have nothing to do directly with their transactional view, then what happens, we get a more high resolution picture of them.
And then, we say, okay, this person is also a devotee of Krishna, I am also trying to be a devotee of Krishna. And, let us all work together. So, we need to, especially in our important relationships, have forums where we can have that high resolution, high resolution picture, conception of others.
Otherwise, with that low resolution conception, we will, things will go towards a breakdown. We cannot avoid that low resolution conception, but we cannot have that alone all the time. Okay.
Thank you. Yes. Questioner’s question inaudible Okay.
So, if there are, as a devotee, we are all in different roles. And, each role may require a different frame of reference. Yes.
Basically, we can say the frame of reference. So, there is, we talk about attachment and detachment. So, now, there can be attachment in sattva guna.
Often, see, in tamo guna, in rajo guna, there is attachment to positions and positions. That, this is the position I want, this is what I own, I want to hold on to it. In tamo guna, the attachment is basically to escape ways.
And, how can I escape from difficulties? Everything that can give me a positive escape, whether it is intoxication or escape is entertainment or whatever. In sattva guna, the attachment is to opinions. Opinions.
Now, this is, I am so intelligent, I am so learned, my way is right. So, it is, it actually, in sattva guna, when the attachment to opinions comes up, that’s why there are, it’s said that if there are seven rishis, so if there are seven rishis, there will end up being eight opinions. Not just seven opinions, eight opinions.
Because somebody, they argue and while arguing, they shift from one opinion to another opinion just to maintain. Some people say, yeah, my opinion might be wrong, but the fact that I am right is still true. Some people just become very attached to their opinions.
So, in sattva guna, that problem comes up, that our attachments are not gross, they are subtle. So, for a person, sattva guna, they don’t have that much attachment to wealth and positions and they may say I am detached. Actually, every mode will bring its own challenges.
So, in sattva guna, the detachment is actually, maybe my opinion is not right. I will be talking about that later about opinions. Now, the willingness to examine our own opinions, that is the detachment that is required for sattva guna person.
That is challenge. So, for us, with respect to our particular way of functioning, we need to recognise that the frame of reference, frame of reference also is related to our opinion. This is how things should be and this is how things should not be done.
They are coming from frame of reference. So, there is psychological rigidity and psychological flexibility. Psychological rigidity means we can see things only in a particular way.
Psychological flexibility means we can see things in different ways. So, in sattva guna, the challenge is not so much detachment from possessions but detachment from opinions and that comes, that is what is psychological flexibility. So, the idea is that with different people, we need to understand how they function and function appropriately with them.
So, I was with one devotee, I was asking one senior devotee, sometimes with some people, our wavelength just does not match. So, what do you do? So, that senior devotee answered that humility means you change your wavelength so that it matches. Now, it is not always easy to do that, but at least we take the initiative.
So, depending on how a particular person is inclined or disposed, we need to function differently. So, if somebody, say the way we talk with our family at home will be different from the way we talk at office. In the office, we may have to push and get things done.
Now, some people, actually, unless they are pushed, they don’t do anything. And some people, if they are pushed, they stop doing everything. If you don’t push them, they have to be pushed again, reminded again and again.
But some people, if you keep pushing them, they say, you don’t trust me, I told you I will do it, I will do it. If you don’t trust me, then I am not going to do it. So, if you push them, they will not do it.
So, we have to read people a little bit and according to our role, we may have to function. So, rather than thinking of the frame of reference as something which is rigid and fixed to us, we see that as a tool for getting our service done. So, whatever be our service, I was speaking in Intel, so there, Intel in America, in Silicon Valley, so there, one person was, I was speaking about humility, so one devotee was saying, humility is not practical in a professional setting, you can’t be humble over there.
So, he said, we are trained to see everything in terms of building our resume. So, he was telling a joke they have, he says, if your tap is on and if you turn off the tap, he says, I helped, I am an active agent in conserving water on the planet. I am an activist.
So, you take the smallest of things and expand it. So, sometimes we write our CV, we build our profile, it’s all like blowing our trumpet, you have to do that, that will be required for a functional purpose, but ultimately why do we want a job? That we want, so that we have financial stability, so that we have social position. So, for a particular role, a particular mode of functioning is required, we can take that without becoming attached to that, without necessarily making that our default mode of functioning, but even in a professional setting, humility in terms of, humility may not be exhibited the same way we might exhibit it, but there also, in a professional setting, if we want to have, work as a team player, the humility is required, if somebody else gives a suggestion, then to just listen to the suggestion, not dismiss it, even if somebody junior gives a suggestion, if they are a good suggestion, then will listen to it, and if they a bad suggestion, and if they good suggestion, then they will listen to it, and if they a good then they to it, and if they are a suggestion, then they will listen to and if they are a good suggestion, will listen to it, and if they are a good suggestion, and if they are good suggestion, to and if they are a good suggestion, then they will listen to it, and if they are a good suggestion, they good then will listen to it, and if they are a good suggestion, then will listen to it, and if they good suggestion, then they will listen to it, and if they a good suggestion, and if they are good will it, and if they are a good suggestion, then will listen to it, and they are a suggestion, then will listen to it, and if they are a good suggestion, then will listen to it, and a suggestion, will and they a good suggestion, then will listen to it, and if they are suggestion, then will listen to it, and if they are a good suggestion, then will listen to it.
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