“Do demons exist?” and lessons from Kabandha – Ramayana wisdom

[Talk at San Jose, USA] Video:

Hare Krishna. Thank you for coming today evening. And today I will talk on the principle of how curses can lead to blessings, based on the Ramayana.

I will talk primarily of an incident, which happens, am I audible behind? So, an incident that happens in the Aranya Kanda, when Ram is searching for Sita. So the theme I will talk about is how, even when bad things happen in our life, and even when the bad things happen because of our own mistakes, still good can come out of it. And the idea is that we need to keep staying focused on the positive in our life.

So, in the Ramayana, Ram is God, but he doesn't primarily act as God. It's not that in the Bhagavatam, for example, when Krishna is in Vrindavan, nobody treats him like God directly, because he is in a particular rasa. So Ramayana's driving question is, what are the qualities of an ideal human being? And the Valmiki Mun's answer is, it is Ram who has those ideal qualities.

And we may think of an ideal human being in different ways. Most people may think of a person who is very powerful, who is very successful, who can make life bend to their will, as a successful person. Those who are big achievers in life, they achieve a lot, that means they make the world or life bend to their will.

That is one aspect of greatness. But another equally, if not more important aspect of greatness is, that when life says no, how to take it gracefully. There is determination to succeed, that is one aspect of greatness.

But another aspect of greatness is also grace in failure. Say a sportsman who performs very well and succeeds, it's considered great. But if a sportsman loses and then remains sportsmanly, remains courteous, remains polite and congratulates the opponent, and remains grace, that is also attractive in its own way.

So the Ramayana demonstrates, how even when God descends to this world, even he is not spared of distresses in his life. Because the nature of this world is, distresses always come upon everyone. And Ram's greatness is not just in his capacity to overpower demons, or in his capacity to ultimately overpower the king of the demons, but it is also in the grace with which he deals with difficulties.

So when he has to go to the forest, for no fault of his at all, it's generally, if we are punished for something which is our fault, still we try to argue and try to get the minimum punishment. But there is no fault and still one is punished. In fact, sending a person in exile is an extremely severe punishment.

We might get some idea of it in today's world, maybe today's America, say if somebody's visa is not extended, and they suddenly have to leave the country. You know, you have your job here, you have your home here, family here, and suddenly you have to go. But still, it's bad, but it's not that bad, because you have your family, you have a home, you have, if you have to go back to India also, the fact that you have worked in America, gives a certain amount of prestige and glamour, you can have a good career, still it's disorienting.

But, exile means, from where one is staying, one has his home, one has one's life, suddenly one is sent out, and not even to some other place, but it's right out into the wilderness, into the forest. And, it means, there is, one has to live practically, like a tribal or like an animal. So, in the Ramayana itself, that is one reason why, even Bharat is outraged, when he hears about that.

He says, Ram can never commit any wrong, and exile is the punishment for the worst of criminals. It is just one punishment below execution. That you take away the life of a person, that is the ultimate punishment.

But, just one level below that is, you take away everything except the life. Take away home, take away property, take away all the connections, just exile. So, Ram, he remains graceful, even amidst all this.

And, when they are living in the forest, initially, they go to Chitrakoot, and there is a Naam Rama, and 108 names of Ram is described, his pastimes with one-one name. So, first he goes to Chitrakoot, and he is staying there. Chitrakoota, Dhriniketana, Rama, he is staying there, and then from there, he comes out, comes downwards.

Dandakavanna, Janapavanna, Rama, he comes to Dandaka forest. And, while he is in Dandaka forest, that is where his encounter with the Rakshasas begins in dead earnest. Now, the point is, especially in today's world, where people have a lot of rationality, and they say, how do you believe in something like demons? How do you believe in something like monkeys talking? Now, the point of the Ramayana is to tell us, is not to debate whether demons exist.

The point of the Ramayana is to assure us that demons can be killed. The point of the Ramayana is not a book of rational science to prove the existence of something. The point is, we are not saying whether they exist or not.

Every book has its purpose. Say, if we are giving an English class, and somebody says, but what you are speaking is not according to the rules of Sanskrit grammar. Well, I am not speaking in Sanskrit.

Isn't it? So, we cannot apply the rules of Sanskrit grammar to a talk in English or to a book in English. Every book has its own rules. So, if an English class has to be evaluated, it has to be evaluated according to the rules of English.

So, if somebody asks, is the Ramayana literal? That's as wrong a question as asking, does the English book follow the rules of Sanskrit? It's a wrong question. Because the Ramayana is not here to give us, it is here to tell us about the character of Ram, and it is here to edify us. See, even if we look at pre-Newtonian Western history, this idea that history should be a list of facts, that's a modern conception of history.

Even when Shakespeare writes about Julius Caesar or others, the idea is, more than repeating the facts of what happened, what is more important is what we can learn from history. So, history is to be studied not just to remember a set of dates and a set of events. History is to be studied to understand what we can learn from it.

So, if a person is ultra-rational, we need to avoid this question of whether it is literal or non-literal. It's a wrong question. Because the idea of something being literal is a modern idea.

History was meant not so much for factual record-keeping as for moral edification. The purpose of each book has to be kept in mind when we study that book. So, yes, there might be other facts also in that book, but each book has its own purpose.

And if you start looking at a book from some other purpose, say, somebody is very sick, and there is a book of medicine, which gives the cure for that medicine. Now, if somebody says, you know, the grammar of this book is not right. Well, if you want to study grammar, go and read a grammar book.

Now, the grammar may be right also, you don't know. Because there might be certain terms in medicine which are represented in a particular way. But the point is to approach a book of medicine to criticise its grammar is a completely wrong approach.

So, that's why, if somebody puts scripture like a competitor to science, that, okay, this is scripture and this is science. Now, somebody tries to evaluate scripture through science or science through scripture. Now, by putting scripture as a competitor of science, we devalue scripture.

Scripture is answering a different set of questions. Science is answering a different set of questions. So, each field of knowledge answers certain questions.

So, the Ramayana, the essential message from the Ramayana is not, as I said, to debate that demons exist. Its essential message is that demons can be killed. That the demons, may be physical demons in the outer world or they may be demoniac desires in our own hearts.

And they can be killed. That is the message that has fascinated people for millennia. Yeah? It's not important to find out if it exists or not.

The importance is to take the message of the Ramayana. We go into this area of, into this key area because then it becomes a question of mythology versus spirituality. Exactly.

Okay, good question. Okay, I'm getting that. I was going to come to this point.

Good question. So, if we say that demons exist or not is not important, are we going to the zone of mythology or spirituality? Okay. See, there are, when you talk about scripture, there are three different aspects what we are talking about.

First is the historicity of Ram. Whether Ram really existed or not. Now, there are abundant artefacts to prove that Ram existed.

And as Indian history is being studied more and more, that is becoming more and more clear. A few decades ago, people thought even Krishna was more or less a mythological figure. But now, there have been abundant artefacts found about Dwarka and other places.

So, first is the historicity of the person. There is no debating that even from an academic mainstream perspective. So, once we accept that this person existed.

Now, the second point is that that person may have done some supernatural activities. Now, how do you give any empirical evidence for that? So, when in the war that was going on between Arjuna and, Arjuna was trying to reach Jaidrath. So, at that time, when Arjuna came close but did not come close enough by the sunset, what did Krishna do? Yeah, Krishna blocked the sun with his Sudhan Chakra.

Now, how exactly are we going to establish that empirically? So, there are supernatural activities. We might say that, oh, there is architecture depicting Krishna, there is art depicting that. Yeah, but that is the fantasy of people.

So, there are some people who are very empirically or rationally grounded and they are never going to accept anything supernatural. So, one is even the historical actions, historical characters, supernatural actions. And the other is supernatural characters themselves.

So, like demons and gods. It is very difficult for people with today's mind to accept this. So, there are two different approaches to this.

One is that you have to accept whatever is said in scripture as literal and that is the test of your faith. Okay, that is one way of looking at it. And if somebody can, it is wonderful.

But, say, let us consider some facts in scripture. Consider the story of Chitraketu in the Mahabharata. Now, Chitraketu is said to have an astronomical number of wives.

How many is it? Something like a million wives, yes. Now, from the story's perspective, does it really matter whether he had a million wives or a thousand wives or a ten thousand wives? The essential message of that story is that although he tried so much, but he could not get a child. So, now, the Bhagavatam itself does not anywhere literally insist that this number is what is the stress.

Prabhupada in one purport, he said that Chitraketu had hundreds and thousands of wives. He does not literally say that he had hundreds of thousands. It is not hundreds multiplied by thousands.

It is hundreds of thousands of wives. So, if we consider the main story, the exact number is not all that important. So, in every narrative, there is something central and there is something additional.

Something contextual, something circumstantial. So, we do not want to downplay or reject that it is circumstantial. But the central message is universal.

And just because somebody cannot accept the contextual, there is no need to deprive them of the central message. So, there is an interaction of Prabhupada when he was in Hawaii. I just came from Hawaii.

So, one of the devotees in Hawaii told me the same incident also. So, Prabhupada was there and some devotees came and they are talking with Prabhupada. When we go to the scholars, we talk with the scholars and we tell them that Maharaja Yugrasen had again like a phenomenal number of bodyguards.

Some thousands and thousands and thousands, some million or whatever, huge number of bodyguards. So, they start laughing at us. And they say, in Dwarka, where would all of them live? Where were their houses? Where were their toilets? How would they manage? Now, literally there is a conversation like this.

And now Prabhupada could have given any answer. Prabhupada would have said, Krishna can do everything. Krishna's power is inconceivable.

Krishna can sustain the whole world on the tip of a needle. But what does Prabhupada say over here? Prabhupada says, among all the thousands of verses in the scripture, was it the only thing you found to speak to the scholars? So, we have limited time with people. We have limited time with people.

And in the limited time that we have, we need to share that which is most beneficial for them. That which is most uplifting for them. Now, let's compare this way.

For a person to chant the name of Ram, is that more important? Or for the person to believe that demons existed is more important? If there is a comparison between the two, there is a choice between the two, what is more important? Chanting is more important, isn't it? In fact, Bhaktivinoda Thakur has such a liberal approach, even to something as central as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's divinity. He wrote a book on Lord Chaitanya and his teachings, which he sent to Western world, it was in McGill University and other places, it was found many years later. So, there in the introduction he writes, as far as the identity of Lord Chaitanya is concerned, the Bengali Vaishnavas accept him to be Krishna.

And for them, the many miracles he has performed are evidence of his divinity. But, Bhaktivinoda Thakur takes the role of a sceptic over here and says, but miracles in themselves do not prove divinity. Because even demons like Ravan perform miracles like changing their form.

So, the real blessing of Lord Chaitanya is the process of love of God that he has provided. So, irrespective of the question of Lord Chaitanya's divinity, he doesn't use Lord Chaitanya, he uses Sri Chaitanya, Sri Chaitanya's divinity, we urge all our readers to follow his process and enrich themselves with love of God. So, the point here is that the most important thing is that people connect with the divine.

Now, devotion can be an incremental growth. And for some people, when they are practising bhakti, they might not have much of a questioning mind. And they might be able to accept certain things.

If somebody is not able to accept, what do we do? We have to get, ultimately, is it really possible to, by logical argument, prove that the Lord did miracles? By logical argument, can we really prove that demons existed? We can give logical pointers towards that. A, we can say, how could we say that Krishna lifted the Govardhan Hill? We can say that, if in principle, we accept that God exists, and then God is the source of the laws of nature. And if he wants, he can suspend the laws of nature.

So, the example is, somebody may ask, Krishna lifted Govardhan Hill, how did he find the centre of gravity? To hold, to put his finger right below that. If you want to hold something, if I have to hold this, I want to try it. But if I have to hold it with one finger, my finger has to come right in the middle.

After that, I have to balance. So, it has to come, what physics calls the centre of gravity, so it will balance. So, how did Krishna find the centre of gravity of Govardhan to hold it? So, Krishna doesn't have to find the centre of gravity, because he is the source of gravity.

So, by his will, the laws of nature act. And when he wants, the laws of nature can be suspended. Just like say, if the head of state is going on, there is a war in the country, and the head of state is travelling to an urgent army meeting or something like that.

So, normally for all of us, there is a red signal, stop, green signal, go. But for that, the most important person of the state is travelling, the rules will stop over there. What to speak of the head of state? Even if the ambulance is going, no red signal over there, just go through.

So, what is happening over here? For normal citizens, the laws of this traffic are immutable, you have to follow them. But somebody who is above the law, they may also choose to follow the law, but when they don't want, they may not follow the law. So, we could give a logically intelligible explanation, but it is not a logically clinching explanation.

Intelligible means, yeah, it makes sense. I may or may not accept it. See, unless the person has a basic faith that God exists and God is the source of the laws of nature, we can't accept these things.

So, when we are teaching scripture or when we are sharing scriptural message, the stress has to be on what is most important. Now, of course, we can say, can demons exist? Well, if the history of science has taught us anything, it has taught us humility. Now, the universe is far bigger and far more complicated than what we normally think of it to be.

Some scientists may say, oh, we have conquered space. We have gone into the sky and we have conquered space. Yeah, that's true.

At one level, you may have gone into space also. But I wrote an article on the scientific interpretation of Damodar Nina. So, what I spoke is that Yashodamai was trying to tie the universe, Krishna's belly from which the universe comes out.

And she was how many fingers short? Two fingers short. So, I explained that science, the more it is trying to tie a rope around the universe, try to comprehend the universe, try to reduce it to one simple equation. So, what is happening? The more we study the universe, we might have gone into space.

But what has happened? After going into space, we have realised how big space is. From earth, we thought space is big. But by going there, then we realised that the earth is far, far bigger.

Sorry, the space is far, far bigger. In fact, the earth is itself very small. You know, yesterday I was at Stanford and one person came after the programme and he gave me a blue marble as a gift.

I said, why a marble of all things? So, he said, this marble is the view of the earth from space. So, he said, this is actually how science has revealed the insignificance of humanity and the insignificance of the earth. So, at one level, we may say science has advanced so much and we have so much knowledge.

But science has also revealed how much more there is to know. So, in that sense, so if we say it is a scientific advance, advance in the scientific knowledge, what it does? First is that the more we come to know, the more we realise how much more there is to know. So, although our knowledge increases, what happens is by the increase of our knowledge, what increases is the knowledge of our ignorance.

And secondly, as science advances, also what we understand is that what we knew earlier was not correct. So, 100 years ago, we thought that Newtonian physics was the last word in physics. But now we realise it is not that.

So, I explained that there is two ropes, the two fingers that are short. So, science is short at arriving at a rope that can go around the universe and reduce it to a simple equation. Because the more we come to know, the more we realise how much more there is to know.

And the more we come to know, the more we realise that what we knew is not all that correct. So, both ways, what we know is never enough. In fact, this is not just one or two scientists.

Steven Weinberg is a Nobel laureate. And he has said that in the last 20 years, we have made phenomenal scientific progress. But scientists wanted to come with one equation that could explain everything.

And they said that now we have made phenomenal progress. But the faster we have gone, the further we seem from the solution. Because the universe is irreducibly complex.

In fact, Stephen Hawking, he passed away recently. He in fact said, he couched his inability in a very clever way. He said, I am happy to announce that humanity's quest for knowledge will never end.

So, the attempt to reduce reality to a neat scientific understanding, that is riddled with almost inexhaustible obstacles. Now, this is not in any way to minimise scientific understanding. But it is just that what science doesn't understand right now cannot be rejected offhand.

So, there could be various other levels of universe. The universe is so big, there could be many different kinds of life forms in different parts of the universe. And there could be different beings over there.

So, even scientists, when they look for life, all that they can say is that life as we know it doesn't exist on other planets. Because we cannot really go on each planet and look at every millimetre on the planet. All that they look for is whether there is water, whether there is oxygen.

And there is a reasonable temperature. But then all this presumes that life as we know it is what we are talking about. There can be many other different kinds of life forms.

So, the scientists have discovered what is called as extremophilic life forms. Those life forms which allow extreme conditions. So, deep inside the earth's crust, at extremely high temperatures, scientists have found thermophilic bacteria.

Deep inside the ocean, they have found small life forms that breathe in nitrogen dioxide. So, they have never seen the sun, there is no oxygen down there, but they breathe nitrogen dioxide. So, conceivably, a scientist who is truly in the spirit of science, all that they can say is that science has not found any evidence for this.

So, science has not found any evidence to prove the existence of demons or gods for that matter. So, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

So, I think this was too long an answer. So, I did not answer the question. Any other questions about this? Then we will have to abandon the Ramayana.

Okay, since we have started this topic, let us go ahead and I will go back to the students later. In Mahabharata, there is a story that it is told to King Janamejaya that Bhima threw one of the elephants around the earth and it is rotating. One of them is still rotating and at that point Janamejaya did not believe it and then the sage was able to say I can bring it down and show it to you and he brought the elephant down.

He could not believe that somebody could throw a ball and it is hundreds of years and it is still floating. But now from science, we can say that if it was from enough space, it could keep rotating until it is brought down. So, it is like just because you do not have enough understanding, you are not able to understand the process.

Yeah, that is a good example. This brings me to another point. Actually, I have a whole seminar on can science and spirituality be reconciled.

But since we came in this direction, I am coming back to your point also. See, if we envision a big circle, that is scriptural knowledge. Within scriptural knowledge, there is one small sector.

This is a circle, a small sector that agrees with modern science. And there is a small sector that disagrees with modern science. But the major section of scripture is what transcends modern science.

That there is a spiritual world where there is a supreme being who is a blueish black cowherd boy. This science can neither prove nor disprove. It is out of the scope of science.

So, if we look at our own lives, when we are living according to scripture, among these three sectors, that which agrees with science, that which disagrees with science and that which transcends science, which is that we connect with the most? That which transcends science. We come to scripture primarily because scripture can enrich our life. It can transform us.

It can make us better human beings. It can make us better devotees. It can grant us love for Krishna.

Now, science cannot even measure love. We have a thermometer, barometer, we can't have a love-o-metre. So, now that which we are coming to scripture for, to develop devotion to God, that is science cannot even quantify it.

Now, you could say that when a person has a meditative experience, there are certain brain states and we can see that the person has entered into those brain states. But that you could say that is for anything. When a person is drunk, they are in a particular brain state and that particular part of the brain is activated.

That doesn't in any way prove anything. So, when we want to develop love for God, the whole thing transcends science. So, when we are practising bhakti, for us the most relevant section is that which transcends science.

So, these two sectors, that part which agrees with science, we can use that as a launch pad for getting people to that part which transcends science. And that part which opposes science, there are three possibilities in that. It could be that science may be incorrect.

It could be that science may be incomplete. It could be that science and scripture are seen from different perspectives. Now, science has been also incorrect about many things.

Incomplete means, as I said, science looks at material explanations for material phenomena. That is non-material science doesn't look at it at all. So, going back to the earlier point, if demons existed, why can't we see them now? Somebody asked like that.

Now, the answer to that is simple. That if demons existed, why can't we see them now? Because the universe is multi-level. And in Kali Yuga, because the present age of Kali exists primarily on the earth.

Because the earth is karma bhoomi. In the higher planets, also people are accountable for their actions. But it's not like literally they are under the laws of karma.

Heaven is a place where people enjoy the fruits of good karma. The lower planet is a place where they endure the results of bad karma. Earth is the place where people do karma.

And earth is the place where Kali's influence is maximum. So, because Kali is a very dangerous age. So, in this age, the earth has been quarantined from the rest of the universe.

Just like if somebody has got an infectious disease, then you quarantine them. So that they don't infect anyone else. So, about 15-17 years ago, I had got severe TB.

So, almost for 6 months, I became a Jain sadhu. I had to put a mask on my face. So, if you see my classes at that time, I would come with a mask and I would give a class.

So now, that kind of quarantine is required. So, in the past, the boundaries between the various levels of the universe were more porous. Now, they are more rigid.

I'll come to this point. So, the idea is that if you consider the universe to be like a very complicated computer. Where hundreds of people are working on it.

Like your mainframe computers, which hundreds of people are working on it. And different people will have different levels of access to the computer. A data entry operator will just enter the data over here.

Somebody who is a higher level head. They can see not only this folder, they can see this drive also. Somebody who is a top CEO, they can get access to the top person in that hierarchy.

They have access to the whole computer. Now, for the remaining people, if they want to keep it confidential. It will be as if you can't even notice.

Like there are some hidden files. There are some files, which we can see the folder, but if we click, you don't have access to it. But there are some files which are hidden itself.

So, we don't even know that they exist. Unless you have the right access. So, for us, we in Kali Yuga, because of the Alpa Karma.

In Kali Yuga, the good karma that we have is very limited. That's why our access to the universe is very limited. In fact, now there is no direct Pramana for this.

But there is inferential Pramana for this. I've talked to many senior devotees. Generally, it is said that even in the past ages, people would not see the Devatas directly.

So, when somebody would do Yajna, there were like, we could say that there are three levels of success for the Yajna. One is that you do the Yajna and you just offer the Ahuti to the various Devatas. And if the Yajna just gets completed successfully, that indicates that the Devatas have accepted the offering.

Otherwise, the Yajna would get obstructed. And that's why obstruction in the Yajna would be considered very inauspicious. And Ram would come and he would try to stop, he would protect.

Say, Vishwamitra wanted Kaushika Makha Sangrakshaka Rama. Vishwamitra wanted Ram to come so that he could guard his sacrifice. So, just the successful completion itself indicates the Gods have accepted.

But then the Gods come in invisible forms. But if the Gods are especially pleased by a Yajna, then they come in visible forms. So, that is the second level of success.

So, if somebody does good Karma, the Yajna goes successfully. Somebody does very good Karma, excellent Yajna is done, good offerings are done, the Brahmanas are well trained, pure, then the Gods appear. If the Gods come in visible form, the Gods, one simple thing we understand is that we all have a mind.

But we can't see the mind. But the mind does exist. The higher levels of the universe, they are made of subtler elements.

So, because they are made of subtler elements, we can't see those subtler elements. So, Brahma's body is said to be made of pure intelligence. So, now the mind, intelligence and ego, how will you see a body made of intelligence? So, like that the Devatas, their bodies are made of subtler elements.

And because they are made of subtler elements, we can't have access to them. But the Devatas, because they are higher beings, so they can grant access if they want for us. So, they choose to make themselves visible when they want.

And most successful is the Yajna where the highest of Gods, Brahma, Shiva and especially if Vishnu appears, that is considered the supreme success. Even the Devatas themselves, it is said, when they go to the Shirsagar, they don't see Vishnu. It is Brahma who gets communication within his heart.

So, when Vishnu's darshan is extremely Durlabha. So, basically, if just the Yajna is performed, that's one level of success. If you have done it well, but if you have done it very well, Devatas become visible.

If you have done it extremely well, then Vishnu himself becomes visible. And Pruthu got that success. Although his Yajna was not completed, but because he followed the instruction of Brahmaji and he was ready to avoid the conflict with Indra, so he got that success.

So, basically, the more piety that is there, the more visibility of the higher beings is there. And Kali Yuga has very less piety. So, therefore, there is very little visibility of higher beings.

So, actually, the point I was making is that we have these three sectors, one which agrees with science, the other which disagrees with science, and the third which transcends science. So, for most of us, it is the sector which transcends science, that has what has transformed us, that has what has inspired us, and that is what will enable us to move forward. So, now how do we deal with that section which disagrees with science? There are three possibilities.

Science may be incorrect, science may be incomplete, or science and scripture may be perceiving from different scales of reference. So, how we perceive based on a particular scale of reference determines what we see. Suppose you take, say, chalk and make it into powder, and you take charcoal and make it into powder, and you mix the two powders together.

Then, if you look at the powder, what colour will that be? Grey. Now, if you look at the same thing under a microscope, you will not see any grey particles. You will see white and black.

Now, what is it really? So, what it is really depends on the scale of perception. Even a person who has the most attractive face, if you look at their face under a microscope, you will see mountains and ditches and valleys. Isn't it? So, now, is that person attractive or not attractive? Well, it depends on, if you are looking at our particular scale of perception, they may have an attractive face.

But if you look at another scale of perception, we won't see any attraction over there. So, what we perceive depends on our scale of perception. Sometimes science and scripture are perceiving things from two very different scales.

Therefore, that's why there is… Now, we are not saying that, as I said, there are some cases the science might be wrong also. There are some cases when it is incomplete. Some cases when there are just different levels of perception.

The important thing is that just by logical debating, it's very, very difficult to get people, especially people who are very rational or very empirical. Rational means those who have faith in anuman. Empirical is those who have faith in pratyaksha.

For people who are simply rational or empirical, to get them to get faith in the full aspects of shabda, it's very difficult. So, we need to give people the experience of transcendence. So, the experience of transcendence means, just come to a temple, participate in a kirtan.

Even if there has been a survey done, even atheists, if they come to a sacred place, they experience some peace over there. Now, they can't explain why they experience that peace, but they experience it. This has some special vibes over it.

Now, they may attribute it to various things. Okay, maybe the architecture is like this, the music is like this. They don't necessarily attribute it to the divine.

But there is an experience. People experience some peace. So, when they experience that peace, they want more of this.

How can I get more of this? So, it's the third sector, that is what has transformed us. And the third sector is what is going to transform people. So, we need to focus, not on the first or the second, but on the third.

And sometimes we talk about the first, so that people can come to the third. Yes, this knowledge is also there in scripture, and now science is discovering it. So, you can use that to get people to the third.

If somebody is on the second, get them off the second as quickly as possible. Don't make the second like a matter of endless argumentation. It's not going to work.

Prabhupada has this approach. In the first Canto Purport also, he says that Krishna has travelled from Hastinapur to Dwarka. And when he has come to Dwarka, at that time, the path that he takes is described.

He went to this city, passed by this river, this village, this town. And Prabhupada writes in the purport that historians may try to retrace the exact path that Krishna took while coming to Dwarka. But, because the earth, geologists have told us, I am paraphrasing now, geologists have told us that the earth's surface keeps changing.

Therefore, retracing Krishna's path is extremely difficult. As far as we are concerned, we are simply satisfied that Krishna has come to Dwarka and is going to perform pastimes with the Dwarka devotees. So, the thrust is very clear.

Lord Shiva explains that anything is possible in this material world with yogic powers, like Vishwamitra tried to create a new Swarga. So, the limitation that we put that only things that are rationally known by science can be done is very tight restriction. Because yogic powers you can transcend.

In general, the theory principle is that anything that you can conceive can be created in this material world. Even by advanced yogis. Yeah, that's true.

You know, there is yogic powers are extraordinary powers which we don't know how we have. Now, science has also recognised there is some kind of what they call as PSI, Paranormal Phenomena, Extrasensory Perception. There have been, there is B. H. Ryan who has done experiments where they put people in iron containers from which no wave could go.

And say, people who are telepathically connected. They claim to be telepathically connected and then they had a random number generator inside that iron container. And there is some number it generates.

And this person thinks of that number and conveys it telepathically to the other person. And the other person gets it. There is no way the random number generator product is completely arbitrary.

There is no way, but they get it with a remarkable level of consistency. So, even a scientist, Carl Sagan, was a sceptic. But even he said that this whole phenomenon of ESP needs to be investigated.

It's like an unexplained territory within the world of science. So, yes, there is also a well-known experiment called a staring experiment. Now, say, that means, if I am sitting here and somebody behind is staring at me.

Now, I have to guess. Is that person staring at me or not staring at me? Now, all of us sometimes have a sense we are doing something and we feel somebody is looking at us. And we look back and we see that person and that person looks away in embarrassment.

So, now all of us have some uncanny sense. If we are being stared at. So, now they did this experiment.

Now, if it's simply a matter of probability is this person staring at you or not staring at you? So, we will get it right 50%. So, is the person staring? Not staring. Staring? Not staring.

But, on an average almost everyone gets it right 60 to 70%. And there are some people who get it right between 90 to 95%. Now, how do you get that? They say that actually some scientist tried to give an explanation that actually we, when we were living in jungles as animals at that time we had to be very alert to predators and predators could sneak in from behind.

So, evolution has gifted us the ability to be aware of predators even if they are in the background. Okay. See, there is explaining and there is explaining away.

There is a basic explanation about this phenomenon that everything is Brahman and connected and therefore can perceive and everything that's there if someone is able to connect himself to that Brahman. Whether everything is… That's a different issue, I think. I'll come to that.

Yeah, it goes to a different class. But, like, there is a unique explanation that I have. Okay, I'll come to that.

But, anyways, the point which I am making is that there are things which even science acknowledges is not exactly explainable within the framework of science. when somebody is able to when somebody is able to, say, perceive things which we can't normally perceive, like, say, staring is it because everything is Brahman and we are connected with Brahman? It may be so, but in my understanding it doesn't have to be so. So, is it because we are all… that everything is Brahman and we are connected at a spiritual level because of which we can have these paranormal abilities? Not we are only people who are… No, no, no.

No, actually, there are three levels of reality. There's physical reality, there's mental reality and there's spiritual reality. So, usually the paranormal experiences are at the mental level not at the spiritual level.

Yes, it is true that all of us are parts of the Supreme Brahman and we are all connected that way. And ultimately, nothing happens without the arrangement of the Supreme. But, there are levels of arrangement.

Say, that when Newton saw the fruit falling, the apple falling, now he asked what made the apple fall? Now, Newton was a theist and he could have said that God made the fruit fall and that would be true. But, at that level, he was not looking for that explanation. He was looking for some material mechanism by which the fruit falls.

Now, you could say the material mechanism is made by God. But, God is not personally involved in each material mechanism's operation. That Krishna says, I am supervising.

But, by its order, by its order, things are created and destroyed. So, Krishna oversees. Krishna is not directly involved in things.

He oversees. So, one of the principles in science is nature is causally complete. We don't need any supernatural explanation for any natural phenomenon.

Now, that is also broadly, not entirely, but in some ways, it is acceptable. Because, when Krishna has made this world, he has made it in such a way that it doesn't require his constant intervention. And that's why, when he descends, it's special.

Sambhavami yuge yuge, when he says. So, the idea is that, it is said, what is the best management? Best management is where everything is going on smoothly and nobody appears to be managing anything. If a manager is saying, hey, you do this.

Have you forgotten this? Come on. Don't do this. Then, that means, okay, you are getting things done.

But, if everything is going seamlessly, that means the manager is very expert. It doesn't mean that there is no manager. Although, an unintelligent person, who doesn't know the intricacies of how things are happening, may think, I don't see any manager.

So, there is no one. But, actually, the smooth operation of everything, without any personal intervention being required, doesn't indicate that there is no personal oversight. Rather, there is such expert arrangement that things operate automatically.

So, just as science discovers phenomena that happen at the level of physical matter, science basically looks at gross matter, but there is subtle matter. And most mystic powers that are there, they are at the level of subtle matter. They are not necessarily at the level of spirit.

So, when yogis have certain powers, by which, say, they can get something from a distant place. Now, how do they get that? Because the universe has multiple levels, you could say, multiple dimensions. And, at a higher dimension, the distances get shorter.

Just like, say, if I want to go from here to that wall, I can go straight. But, if I want to go up to… if you want to climb up to the top of that wall, the ant will go like this, and it will go like this. But, if there is a spider which is flying, or there is an insect or mosquito which is flying, the mosquito can go diagonally.

And as you go diagonally, the distance decreases. So, similarly, what happens is, at higher levels, at the subtler levels, there is access to… there is connection which is not known at physical level. So, the mystic powers are not necessarily… they are ultimately the arrangement of Brahman.

But the mechanisms themselves are not at the level of Brahman. They are at the level of sukshma, of subtle matter. That's the level of subtle matter.

Normal limits of space and time do not apply. And that's how we move forward. So, do we come back to Ramayana now? Okay, yeah.

So, I was trying to tell the story in detail, but I'll keep it short. So, anyway, when Ram goes into the forest, and I was talking about how greatness is seen not just in overcoming difficulties, but also accepting when the difficulties are not changeable. So, Ram accepts this forest, exiles.

And then, while he is in the forest, Sita is abducted. And Ram is devastated by that. He is infuriated first.

He starts challenging. He says that, you know, he starts calling out to the gods, he starts calling out to the trees, and he says, tell me where is Sita, otherwise I will destroy all of you. And then Lakshman consoles him.

Lakshman says, oh brother, everybody is distressed. But those who are great people do not get indiscriminately angry amidst distress. Let us find Sita, and then you can break your anger at the one who has abducted Sita.

And they find Jatayu. And Jatayu gives them the name of the demon. It's Ravan.

But at this point, they don't know where Ravan is. And they have not even seen Ravan yet. And they keep moving southward.

At that time, they suddenly hear a deafening sound. And it's like a big storm tearing through the forest. And as they're trying to catch, they're trying to understand what is happening, suddenly they find themselves whisked out of the ground.

And then they find that actually they're being lifted up and something has grabbed them. And then they look up and they see there is a huge, there is some very weird looking being. And he has got extremely long hands and in those hands he has picked them up.

And this is a demon named Kabandha. So this Kabandha, he first of all, he is like unrecognisable because he is so peculiar that he doesn't have a head. Actually his head is gone inside his stomach.

And here you can see he's got a leering mouth and his hands are so far away that he's catching them and he's dragging them towards himself or moving his hands towards himself to devour them. Now when you see this, Lakshman becomes distressed. He says, what is this great misfortune that has fallen upon us? He says, oh brother, it seems that we are doomed but let me, I will fight against this demon and I will distract him and you escape from his grip.

And you find Sita. I am sure you will find her soon. And oh brother, when you find Sita and go back to the kingdom, please remember me as one of your servants.

And then Lakshman starts struggling. But the demon's grip is so strong that he just can't do anything. And at that time Ram says, oh brother, do not lose heart.

We will fight. But as both of them are speaking, the demon is dragging them forward and forward. Now they are using, they are struggling.

Now what has happened? He has grabbed them so they are not able to struggle also. They have their bow and arrow. They have their sword but they are not able to reach anything.

And then as he keeps drawing them forward, Ram is also struggling. Ram also becomes disheartened and Ram says, he says, one after another calamities are coming upon us. First we were sent to the forest.

Then Sita was abducted. Then for my sake, Jatayu, who is like my father is killed. And now it seems Jatayu's death is also going to go in vain.

Alas, when time is unfavourable, nobody can do anything. And Ram also seems to become resigned to his fate at that point. Now what are Ram and Lakshman? Now they are both waiting for an opportunity.

Although at one level they are being disheartened then that demon has his hands are so far away. It's like suppose, imagine if your hands are so far, you have to take some food. Say if your hands are so long, the prasadam is at the other end of the table.

So from there you pick it up and bring it. It will take some time. So all this is happening during that time.

His arms are very long and then when they are talking, so the demon says whoever you are, you human beings I have not tasted human flesh for a long time. Today I will feast on you. Although you look very strong, you are helpless against me.

And as they are being drawn closer and closer, Ram and Lakshman, although they are in one sense disheartened, although they are acting also, they are also speaking, oh everything is lost. But although they are speaking like that, they are also looking for an opportunity. And as this demon brings them very close to him, now he is holding them very tightly.

Now he wants to eat them. So you get some food to your, food to, with your hand. When you get it to your mouth, you have to drop it in your mouth.

And to drop it in your mouth, you have to loosen it. Loosen that food, isn't it? So he loosens Ram and Lakshman slightly. And both of them, they have been speaking that, oh we are lost now.

And by their speaking like this, the demon is lulled into a sense of complacency. And as soon as he loosens them just a little bit, Ram and Lakshman immediately take out their sword and they just slash the sword. I mean they have come so close to him that his arms, just slash, chop it off.

Now this demon, his arms are very powerful but his attack is completely unexpected and because Ram and Lakshman are also very strong, as they, both of them in one moment, they lock off his arms. And they fall on the ground because he is huge. They fall on the ground and they break free.

And this demon starts screaming in pain. He says, who are you? Now sometimes we, we might be, say, quarrelling with someone. Or we might be having some argument.

Suddenly there is some big power. In 11th chapter that happens to Arjuna also, he says, Krishna, please show me a Vishwaroopa. And Krishna shows the Vishwaroopa, not only Vishwaroopa, Krishna also shows the Kaalaroopa.

And the Kaalaroopa is deadly. This is all destruction happening over here. Suppose, say, we are just walking along with a friend and then suddenly some thugs attack.

And then suddenly that friend, we are almost scared what to do, and that friend suddenly does some karate chops and and all those thugs are knocked out. Who are you? So, similarly Arjuna also says, Who are you? So, that's why Krishna's answer is what? He doesn't say, I am Vishwaroopa. Because Vishwaroopa Arjuna already knows.

But in this Vishwaroopa, what he has specially shown is the Kaalaroopa. And that's why when Krishna answers, he says, Similarly, Similarly, when he sees his on his laptop, he says, Who are you? And then, Lakshman introduces, normally there are two people, what happens is that the older person doesn't introduce themselves, the younger person introduces the older person as himself. So, he says, this is Ram, the prince of Ayodhya, and I am his younger brother, Lakshman.

And this demon is screaming in pain. And suddenly, he starts, he starts laughing in joy. Now, both of them are puzzled.

I told you I had TB long time ago. So, actually before that for one, one and a half years, I was sick and nobody was able to diagnose what was wrong. I used to get temperature and we tried so many things, nothing was working.

And finally, we did some chest x-ray and this doctor, when I went to meet the doctor, the doctor was very grave. And he said, you have got TB. And the first word that came out of my mouth is, Thank God.

He looked at me as if I was crazy. But, you know, at least if you know what the disease is, the treatment is possible. If you don't know, so I was thanking God at least the disease has been diagnosed.

So, similarly, for Kabanda, although his arms were cut, he suddenly started, his face became bright and happy. And Ram and Lakshman again became very astounded, a little suspicious also because they are still not out of danger. This demon is still powerful, his arms are cut off.

And then, he told, Oh, I was waiting just for you to come. Now, what do you mean? Lakshman asked and then he told his story. He said, he had been a celestial being.

Like a devata and he had a very attractive form. But, as a devata, he had the power to change his form. And just for fun, sometimes he would assume very deadly forms like demons.

And he would terrorise people. So, once he had been, he tried to terrorise a sage like that. And, the Vedic scriptures are filled with people trying to people trying to trouble sages and getting into trouble because of that.

So, when he tried to terrorise this sage with his deadly form, because sages, they may not be afraid for themselves. They may be also. Not all sages are entirely transcendental.

But, they are also afraid for their sacrifices. So, when they see this terrible demon coming, the sage, he looked at him and he recognised. He says, you are a god, but you have taken up this ghastly form just to terrorise me.

I curse you that this ghastly form will become permanent for you. And that's how he got that form. And then, he was a servant of Brahma.

So, then he went and told Brahma, I am sorry, I made this mistake and I have been cursed. So, Brahma told him, don't worry, you will be a demon, but you will be a very powerful demon. And you will get abundant food to eat.

And he said, you are going to fall on the earth. So, then he thought, I have been blessed by Brahma, so I can challenge anyone. And then, he went and challenged Indra.

And when he challenged Indra, at that time, Indra just sent his thunderbolt. And Brahma had given him a prediction that you will not be killed. But Indra's thunderbolt was so strong, Indra's thunderbolt fell on his head and normally it would have split his head apart.

But because he had that blessing that he would not be killed, so his head went into his body. And he was horrified. So, he said, Indra, don't leave me like this, kill me.

He said, no, Brahma has given me a prediction, I cannot kill you. So, then, what happened was, he said, then how will I ever be released from this? So, he said, now I have been injured, I am deformed, how will I even live? So, Indra said, I will bless you with extremely long arms. And those arms, you can get through.

And then, he had asked the sage also, when will I be freed from this curse, I am sorry. So, he said that, this curse, I cannot free you from it. But when the supreme descends to the world as Rama, then, at his hands you will be free.

And Indra said, yes, when Rama comes, these arms which you have been given, this demoniac power that you have, that will be taken away from you and then your celestial form will be returned to you. The demoniac form will be taken away means, your arms will be locked off. So, he said, he said to Rama, actually, as a celestial being, I have higher vision, by which I can tell you how you can find Sita.

I can tell you about someone who will help you to find Sita. So, Rama said, tell me now. He said, no, now I don't have that celestial vision because I am in a demoniac form.

Now, what happens over here is, that the different Acharyas and Ramayana say, he said that, that although he has seen the power of Rama, he doesn't still have faith in Rama. So, he thinks, if I tell and Rama goes away, then I will stay without my arms in this demonic body. So, he says that, I have to be interred.

No, I have to be buried. You bury me and destroy this body. When this body is destroyed, this is the only way this body can be destroyed and once this body is destroyed, then I will get the celestial body back.

And there, I will get, I can tell you that knowledge. So, now, Rama looks at him, Rama decides that, right now, they have no clues. So, he trusts him.

Anyway, this demon is powerless now because he does not have any, he does not have any arms. So, he says, demons cannot, he will have to be killed his own way and then they bury him. They may have to make a big ditch because he is a big demon.

They bury him and after they bury him, then immediately he emerges in celestial form and he says, go to Kishkindha and there you will meet the Vanara prince Sugriva and he will be your ally in finding Sita. So, here, as he speaks this, he offers his respects to Rama and then he disappears. So, as he disappears, Rama and Lakshmana observe him go and then they march on to it, to finding Sugriva.

So, here we see, Kabandha, he, because of his power, because of his arrogance, he abuses his power and when he abuses his power, he loses his position. So, generally, what happens is that, see, there is position and there is disposition. Position refers to the external power, external attribute, external force that we have.

Disposition refers to the attitude that we have. So, if there is position, if there is a big position but there is not the right disposition, then that person can cause a lot of damage and normally the devatas are meant to have a big position and also a right disposition. But sometimes the devatas tend to behave in an ungodly way and when they do, they also get consequences and the devatas are not exactly under the laws of karma the way we are.

But still, they are accountable for their actions and if they abuse their powers, they have to suffer also. So, now, this is a mistake for Kabandha. It's a serious mistake by which he offends the sage and then he tries to challenge Indra also after that.

So, his disposition was not to respect the sages but to scare the sages. Even when he gets a demoniac body, that disposition becomes let me challenge Indra itself. So, that disposition which is there, that disposition is what needs to be changed.

So, when he contacts Ram, what changes for him is not just his position, not just his body but the contact with Ram purifies him. shuddha brahma paratpara Rama as it is said. It's pure brahma and what is pure brahma? It's paratpara Rama.

That beyond this world is the Brahma. But beyond Brahma is Bhagawan. It's all pervading effulgence and beyond that effulgence is the personal absolute.

And that personal absolute is Ram, that personal absolute is Krishna. So, for us, in our lives, we all often seek some kind of position. Position can refer to some force, some power, some designation.

We may all feel that I want this position so that I can be more effective. Even in devotional service also, we want some position by which we can do some service. If I had this position, I could do this.

If I had this facility, I could do this. If I had these resources, I could do this. So, we all look for a position by which we feel we can do more service.

And yes, if certain positions are there, we might be able to do better services. Say, if somebody wants to distribute books and then they have a team with them and they are the team leader of the distributing team, they can distribute a lot of books. If somebody is a speaker and they have a place where a lot of people are coming for programme and they get to go over there, then they can share Krishna more effectively.

So, all of us, for our service, if there is a position which allows facilities to do the service, then we can do a lot of service. That's true. But for service, more important than the position is the disposition.

That if we do not have the right disposition, even if we get the position, that position will not lead as much to the increase of our service as to the increase of our ego. I am so powerful. I am so proud.

I am so great. So, yes, we can seek to increase our service. But to increase our service, if we focus not so much on thinking if only this situation works out like this, then I could do so much more service.

If we focus on trying to improve our disposition, then when we get the position, we will be able to use it better. When Prabhupada said that Krishna can give you the whole world in 18 days, but you are not ready for it right now. Because it's very easy to become intoxicated.

Very easy to become intoxicated with our ability if we can do certain things. So, what we need especially is the disposition of service to Krishna. So, in general, that contact with Ram was what transformed not just his position but also his disposition.

And that same principle applies for all of us. If we try to connect with Ram, with Krishna, by chanting the holy names, by doing our sadhana bhakti, by hearing, reading, remembering, chanting, then that will purify us. That will change our disposition.

And if whatever position we are in, whatever service we can do, if we do that service right now, then Krishna sees that and Krishna will give us more facility for service. Actually, if only I had more time, I could do more service. If I am in a position where my job demands so much of my time, this demands so much time, that demands so much time.

If I had more time, I could do so many more things. Yes, that's true. But if we just do what we can in our present situation, then Krishna sees that.

And by that, if we have the disposition of using what we have right now in Krishna's service, then Krishna will give us more in due course. The important thing is that the Lord, the process of bhakti is primarily meant to change our disposition. And just as the contact with Ram, when initially the arms were cut off, it was painful.

When he was interred, when he was buried, that was also painful. Can you imagine just being alive and buried? It's very brutal. How can you do like that? No.

But, in that case, although it was being done by God himself, but he had that faith, from this something good is going to come. So sometimes, for us to get that pure disposition, we may have to go through some tribulation. And that tribulation might be painful.

But through that difficulty, through that tribulation, we are getting purified. And through that purification, if we just maintain that faith, sometimes we are doing some service and suddenly some situation comes, we feel, I am completely disempowered, I have lost everything. And then we think, oh, there is a dark tunnel and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

But then as we are looking at it, we find there is a light of a rushing train. This has to jump out of the way. So, sometimes it may appear as if we have a problem, we think we have found a solution, but we find the solution is a bigger problem.

But, we persevere. So, Kabanda, for him to get his celestial body back, first of all, his arms had to be cut and he had to be buried. This is the principle of In 18.37, Krishna said to the Bhagavata, that which tastes like poison in the beginning will taste like nectar in the end.

So, he got his celestial body back, that was like the nectar, but before that, he had to go through poisoning. So, similarly for us, in our bhakti, sometimes we may have to go through poisoning. So, rather than just seeking externally for more facility, more convenience, more time, more resources that we can serve, even if we don't have it, yeah, we can strive to get more of it as much as we can, but if we can't get it, the craving for that should not distract us from Krishna.

We should focus on serving Krishna with what we have right now. And if we connect with the Lord, that will purify us. And as we become purified, we'll find that in due course, the Lord will give us whatever we need for serving Him, for becoming absorbed in Him, and ultimately, for attaining Him.

So, I'll summarise. I was supposed to speak on the story of Kabandha, but we went into a different direction initially. So, this class was broadly in two parts.

So, first I spoke about how the scriptural tradition, what it teaches us is it's not primarily meant to teach, give us literal history. It is meant to give us moral history. History to teach what are the lessons that we can learn from it.

And that was the way in a few hundred years of pre-Newtonian times, the purpose of history was was moral edification, was not literal reproduction. And scripture and say modern empirical methods of knowing, they are answering very different questions. So, to ask if the scripture is literally like saying that is a book in English following the rules of Sanskrit or is a book on medicine having precise punctuation or not? It's a wrong question.

Now, this does not mean that what scripture says is not true. It's just that what we mean by the word truth, there are different kinds of truths. And empirical truth is one kind of truth, scriptural truth, literary truth is a different kind of truth.

So, I talked about how when we are if we put positions of science and scripture as competitors, we devalue scripture. Scripture is giving us a different kind of knowledge. And I talked about the three sectors or circle with three sectors that which agrees with science, that which disagrees with science, that which transcends science.

So, what matters to us in our daily lives is that which transcends science. And when speaking with people, we should focus primarily on that. That which agrees with science can be used to help people develop faith in that which transcends science.

But the focus should not be on that itself. So, when you talk about that which disagrees with science, it could be that that science is incorrect, or it could be that science is incomplete, or science is giving us a science and scripture are looking at things from different perspectives, different scales of reference. An example of charcoal and chalk powder mixed together.

To our eye, it appears grey, but to a microscope it appears like just two different colour particles. And then I also talked about how when we say what can we prove about scripture through the empirical means? We can prove the historicity of the Lord, of the Lord's appearance in this world, of Krishna and Rama's appearance, but we cannot prove their supernatural activities, historically. Nor can we prove the existence of supernatural beings.

But what we can do is, we can make rationally intelligible arguments. Because, as I said, science has expanded its knowledge, but the more its knowledge expanded, it's always two fingers short. The more we know, the more we realise how much more there is to know.

And the more we know, the more we realise that what we knew needs revision. What we knew needs revision. So therefore, science cannot categorically disprove or reject the existence of higher beings or higher powers which might exist.

And our universe has been quarantined right now. That's why there is not so much contact between the gods or the demons and the earth. Because in Kali Yuga, people lack piety.

And then we went into the story of Kabandha. I talked about how Kabandha abused his power and that's why he was cursed. The Ram's greatness is seen not just in his extraordinary feats, but it's also his grace under extraordinary distresses.

So in this case, when Kabandha captured them completely out of the blue, initially both of them were distressed. They disheartened, but they kept looking for an opportunity. And as soon as the demon loosened them and brought them close, it will open up his arms.

And Kabandha for him, although it is painful, but when he discovered Ram, he was joyful. Discovered it was Ram, he was joyful. Because although the pain was there, he saw that this is going to lead to something better.

And ultimately when he was buried, then he got his celestial body back after which he told him that you can go to Sugriva and meet him. So for him, he had position earlier, but his disposition was demoniac. And because of which he lost his disposition, lost his position and he became a demon.

But by Ram's contact, not only did he get his position back, but he also got his disposition, became godly. So all of us for our services in our lives, we may feel I want some position, some facility, some resource and I don't have it. I can't serve as well as I could.

But rather than worrying too much or craving too much for the position, we can focus on trying to cultivate the disposition. Disposition means that we try to connect with the lord as much as possible in our situation. And if we use whatever resources we have right now to connect with him, he will see us, he will purify us.

And ultimately he will give us whatever facility we need. But purification can sometimes be a painful process. Just like for Kabandha, his arms had to be cut and he had to be buried alive.

So that is the initial poison that we all may need to go through till we get to the nectar of transcendence. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.

I have done something which I have never done till now in my life. I have never spoken in any class. I have travelled light years from science and spirituality to a pastime.

I have spoken in pastime, I have spoken in science and scripture. But never both in one class. If you have any questions, you can ask me later.

We will be discussing later. I have written a few books. This is one of my latest books, Wisdom from Ramayana.

There are about 20 incidents from the Ramayana which are explained. And I said, moral lessons, what we can learn is described. So, how friends can become enemies.

How Vali and Subru became enemies because of misunderstandings. That is explained and how misunderstandings can be avoided. Why do sometimes good people behave in terrible ways? Why did Kaikeyi suddenly conspire to have Ram vanished? That is also explained.

And further the controversial question, why did Ram send Sita away? After gaining her back. That is also explained elaborately. And this is 365.

Quotes on a card deck. These are quotes on nourish yourself, nourish your relationships. These are simple sentences which convey the Gita's wisdom in practical means.

So, life may determine our problems, but we determine their size. And various So, these you can put on your desk or you can put in your office also. And your colleagues may read it and that can stimulate some discussion of spiritual subject matter.

You can have kids read it and you can explain a little bit to them. Or sometimes some devotees what they do is, if some guests come to their house, just ask them to pick a card. Just pick any one card from there and they read it and they are a little intrigued and then they discuss based on that.

So, it has multiple uses. So, we have, I said this and several other books also. There is also a pen drive with around 400 of my latest talks which I give across the world.

So, if any of you want this, it's available behind. Thank you very much.