How to not be disturbed by disturbances – Brahmachari class with QA

[Talk at Nashik, India]

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, about this class. He mentioned it will be a common brahmachari class. So the first thought that came in my mind is that it’s an uncommon brahmachari class.
Why uncommon? Usually when I was abroad, probably when I’m travelling I give 10 classes in a week. So in a month I give about 40 classes, in 5 months about 200 classes. With those 200 classes, I didn’t give a single brahmachari class.
Because there are practically no brahmachari ashrams in the west. So first time when I went abroad I said that, you know I’m from Pune, Mumbai where there are about 150 brahmacharis. The only one who told me in all of America there are not 150 brahmacharis.
So it’s uncommon. And today I will speak on the topic of overcoming discouragement in spiritual life. So I’ll speak this in 3 parts and after each part we can have some questions.
So the overall theme will be that we need to centre our spiritual life on Krishna. And I’ll talk about how we can have different centres. Then I’ll talk about how storms can come in our life based on whichever centre we are in.
And then how we can find an anchor for ourselves. When we come to Krishna and start practising bhakti, there are multiple factors which may inspire us to come towards him. So now this is not necessarily an exhaustive categorisation.
It’s more of an indicative categorisation. So I’ll just explain each of these categorisations. Say for example, social means that we all have a social need for belonging.
We all want to feel accepted, valued, respected. And if we come in a spiritual community and we feel a sense of acceptance, then, oh, I want to be a part of this. In fact, one of the main reasons in the western and westernised world when people turn towards spirituality, it is primarily because they want a sense of community.
So here we feel, oh, devotees are so good, so kind, they are so caring. Basically, we are with good people. That we may come because of social reasons.
So philosophical is where somebody has serious philosophical questions and then they get answers to that. And that’s what brings me to Krishna. So that could be one way in which you come to Krishna.
Then cultural could be, I’ve seen this especially in the western world, that many people, they, many Indians when they go to America, maybe initially they are very, they are interested in just earning a lot of money and maybe enjoying themselves. But once they get married and have children, then they feel, oh, we want our children to have some Indian culture. And then they start exploring Indian culture.
Like about these people who are born in, who are born as children to, to Indian families who immigrated there, there is an acronym called ABCD. ABCD is American Born Confused Desis. So, they, because their whole culture is, around them is American, they go to school, which are American.
They would like to be American, but they can’t because first of all their skin is brown. They are not white skinned. So in some ways, one devotee was telling me that these people are like coconuts.
Brown from outside, white from inside. So, many parents, when they, when they become parents, that’s when they feel, oh, we want to pass on this culture. What is this culture? Because they may have followed it because their parents followed it, but their children are not going to follow like that.
Children are not going to ask questions. So, that’s the cultural pathway. When somebody might come to Krishna because of that.
Oh, this is our culture. I want to follow it more. How can I follow it more? And then there could be psychological.
This is happening a lot in the Western world, where people are very much troubled. Now, social and psychological are not entirely different. Social is where people are lonely and psychological can also be loneliness, but it’s more of depression.
People have mental issues, mental health issues. I was a part of an interfaith discussion on a topic. The title of the topic was, Why hasn’t God died till now? Now, what that meant was that since about more than a century and a half, at least more than a century, sociologists, starting from, some of you may have heard of Friedrich Nietzsche, who had said God is dead.
So, the idea was that, they felt that the idea of God has become irrelevant now. And now, when Nietzsche said that God is dead, he did not say that in a celebratory sense. He said that because of science and rationality and progress, faith in the conception of God that was there at that time, the biblical God, that has become untenable.
And therefore, he said, we are the greatest of murderers. The whole ocean will not be able to wash the stain of our hands because of this murder of the highest of all beings. It is a lamentable event, but he basically said, we can’t believe in God now.
So, but the point is that, although sociologists have been saying that God is dead, but religion all over the world, it has remarkable staying power. America is, at least among the western world, one of the most religious countries. Europe is quite atheistic.
America is quite religious. There are certain belts, which are called Bible belts, which are full of quite evangelical Christians. Then the Middle East, of course, is quite religious.
India is religious. Russia is becoming rapidly religious after the fall of USSR. Although China is still controlled, but China also, Christianity is growing.
I was at a pastor’s, I was at an interfaith meeting, so a pastor from China, he was telling that they have these churches, and on Sundays, they have eight services. And they have to beg people, please don’t come for more than one service, because other people should be allowed to come. So, of course, not everywhere, but my point is that religion has remarkable staying power.
And for many sociologists, it’s a mystery, why? So, there was a New York Times article, which said that, you know, how mainstream Christianity has rebranded God. Rebranded God means that earlier, say, for example, there’s a famous prayer in Christianity that O Father, thou art in heaven, give us, hallowed be thy name, give us our daily bread. Now, that envisions God as a cosmic supplier.
That image has become mostly irrelevant for people in the Western world. Because nobody worries about bread over there. If they worry, they worry about butter for their bread.
Not for bread. So, the idea of God as a cosmic supplier is not so relevant. So, now, many churches present God not as a cosmic supplier, but as a cosmic therapist.
That you come to God, and your depression will go away, your mental health issues will go away. So, basically, a lot of people come to start exploring something spiritual, because they have some psychological issues. So, broadly speaking, we can say these are different ways in which, you can see, people come towards Krishna.
So, now, you could correlate this broadly with 716 in the Bhagavad Gita, that Krishna says four kinds of people come to Him. Those who are distressed, those who are distressed, those who are distressed and those who are distressed. Ultimately, even if somebody is inquisitive, now, why will they enquire about something beyond the material? It’s only they are somehow dissatisfied with the material.
So, for all of us, we all start connecting with Krishna because of one of these paths. Now, it may be more than one, but there is one primarily. And I want to say, it’s only one.
This is, as I said from the start, this is indicative. This is not necessarily exhaustive, but broadly speaking. So, some of us, I primarily came because of the philosophical part.
Now, I had questions and I, the way devotees answered my questions, it was amazing. I was once travelling with Radhe Shyam Prabhu to Mumbai and then I asked Prabhuji, can I ask you some questions? And he said, sure. And he probably thought I’ll have one or two questions.
I had like 11 full-scale pages filled with questions from top to bottom. So, he was very patiently answering all my questions. So, now, this is the path that brought me.
But now, what happens? See, there are many things for us which help us to get the shelter of Krishna. But the problem is that what helps us get the shelter of Krishna can also become our shelter instead of Krishna. That means philosophy should help us to take shelter of Krishna, but we may take shelter of philosophy itself.
So, devotee association should help us to take shelter of Krishna. But if we depend only on devotee association and sometimes it may happen that the very thing that gives us shelter might take away our shelter. The thing which brings us to Krishna may block us on our way to Krishna.
Why? About maybe 10 years after I started practising bhakti, 10-12 years, I started getting certain questions and I found that I couldn’t get satisfactory answers to those questions. And I became very disturbed by that. And then I was asking other devotees and nobody was able to answer.
And what happened is that, so, I couldn’t understand. Say, if I had a particular question, but I couldn’t get the answer, I was very disturbed by it. And then I would ask other people the questions and I was disturbed because they were not disturbed.
Why does this question trouble you? It’s such a perplexing question. So, now, after many years, I realised their shelter was not philosophy. So, okay, some questions, there are so many questions, if you don’t get answer, what is the big deal? Just chant Hare Krishna and be happy.
So, generally speaking, you know, we take shelter of Krishna through one of these paths. And it’s good that we have some way we take shelter of Krishna. But sometimes we make our base primarily here itself.
If not primarily, exclusively here itself. So, for example, if we start practising bhakti because we feel, oh, devotees are so nice. And then, sooner or later, we will meet devotees who are not nice.
Then what do you do? So, we see this, the social aspect most drastically, say, in the example of Draupadi. Draupadi had five husbands, five protectors. And in the normal course of life, she was practising dharma and taking shelter of Krishna with her husbands.
But life brought her to a situation where she was helpless and her husbands couldn’t help her. So, what does she do at that time? Either she can keep, why are you not helping me? Why are you not helping me? She could be cursing them, she could be blaming them. But at that time, she did not do that.
She, this was her path, but she did not stay over here. When there was a quake over there, when there was a challenge over there, she moved on. She just took shelter of Krishna.
So, sometimes it may happen for us that even in devotee association, we may feel very lonely. I gave a seminar on loneliness, I gave a topic overcoming loneliness and then one devotee messaged me, just change the title of the seminar. I said, why? He said, because if anybody says I am going to seminar on overcoming loneliness, then it is like a criticism of all their friends.
That means you have so many friends, but you are still lonely. So, then we changed the seminar and we said that, cultivating rich relationships. So, anyway, the point is that sometimes loneliness, if we are just alone, lost on an island, we might be lonely.
But the worst loneliness is not when we are physically alone. The worst loneliness is when we are surrounded by people who do not understand us. For the human heart, being understood is as important as oxygen is for the human body.
Just start suffocating, start choking. So, if we are with devotees and somehow, for Draupadi it happened at that time, that none of her husbands could help her. So, at that time, she took shelter.
So, when this storm occurred for her, so she, so the same husband, so at that time, her husbands could not help her. So, she went on in spite of that. So, whatever gives us, or you could say whatever gives us shelter of Krishna, we may have to give that up to take shelter of Krishna.
So, coming back to this point again, philosophical. So, I met many devotees and I interacted with, over a period of time, I interacted with intellectual devotees across the world. And then I found that devotees far more senior than me, maybe devotees who are even spiritual masters in our movement, they also have the questions that I have.
And they are honestly figuring out the best answers to those questions. And I realised that I was not alone in having doubts. And they told me that they don’t think about these doubts to anyone because these are not the doubts everybody gets.
So, basically, what happened, at least for me, what happened at that time was, the way I was able to go through this was by finding like-minded association. So, that means, sometimes we might not be able to go directly from here to Krishna. Then if this path is getting blocked, then we might have to find some other path to go towards Krishna.
So, now, another example could be, say, psychological. Sometimes we practise bhakti because we want to feel peaceful. But then, when we start taking up services and responsibilities, those responsibilities take away our peace.
I have to get this done, I have to get that done, I have to get that done. When I travel, as I said, if I travel for 2-3 months, I have to travel across the world, if I am going to speak for about 100 hours, the planning takes 50 hours. So, you know, go to this place and how to, where to, what kind of programmes to do, it takes a lot of time.
And probably, any kind of organised preaching, I am not a very organised person, maybe that’s why it takes more time for me, I don’t know. But the point is that I don’t like this, but it needs to be done to get to what we want to do, what we like to do. So, for all of us, if I think that, oh, if we think that I enjoy doing this, bhakti makes me feel so good, but sometimes it may not make us feel so good.
So, if we are purely on the psychological level, then we will get swept away. Psychological level means, we could also use the word emotional level, that I want to feel peaceful, I want to feel good. Yes, that’s good, I want to feel that, but if that becomes our shelter, we want to come to Krishna and sometimes, coming to Krishna may require fighting for Krishna.
And at that time, we may not feel good. So, similarly with respect to cultural aspect. Cultural aspect means that there are many things we expect the culture, this is how things should be.
And if things are not like that, we get very disturbed. And this happened to many Indians when they came to America, Krishna Prabhupada’s temples. And for them, their idea of temple was, you should have a proper tower, you should have a proper chakra on top and you should have deities in a particular direction.
And when they would come to the temples and they would not see any of this, what kind of temple is this? So, that disturbed them very much. And the same thing may happen to us when we are practising bhakti. We may have certain cultural expectations of how things should be.
And if things are not like that, then how do we practise bhakti? So, when I first went to America, and I went to most of the programmes, especially if you go to western outreach programmes, I was at a yoga studio. And that yoga studio, not a yoga studio, a yoga festival. There were 300 people over there.
And I along with the two devotees I had taken, we were the only three Indians. And in that yoga festival, it was complete western people and they, initially, I didn’t feel anything spiritual about them. It was all, our conception of yoga is that it is something just for the body.
But, as I slowly started talking with them, I saw that they were very thoughtful people. And gradually, although they might seem to be very body conscious, but it is their body consciousness that is opening them to spiritual consciousness. Because what is happening? Something from the eastern world is helping their body to improve.
And they feel maybe the eastern world has something more to offer. So, when we say that, when I go to yoga studios, I say we are not going to speak about yoga, I am going to speak about yoga wisdom. And people are interested in that.
So, now these people are not in the least, in any way, culturally what we might think of as devotees. But they are very, very interested. So, now, this, you could say, each of these are ways in which we can come to Krishna.
I was in Wellington and I was giving a class and suddenly I saw everybody was shaking. I said what happened? And myself was shaking. And they said this is an earthquake.
And they were very calm. We hear earthquakes will get alarming. No, earthquake occurs once a week over here.
Really? But most earthquakes are like not noticeable. Sometimes you notice them. Some earthquakes are very high on the Richter scale.
But minor tremors keep happening. So, basically, now, the further from you the earthquake is happening. Say, the earthquake happens at the end of this room.
We will observe it but we will not get shaken by it. At least not that shaken. Say, it happens right under where you are sitting.
So, similarly for us, in our spiritual lives, what disturbs us the most reveals what shelters us the most. That means, if something happens and that disturbs us very much, that indicates that is where we are sitting, that is where we are sheltered. Say, for example, in the devotee community, somebody does something wrong or somebody goes away from the practise of bhakti, somebody leaves the ashram and some people get, now everybody will be concerned by it, but some people get extremely disturbed by it.
That means that our shelter is in that social circle. Now, definitely we want a social circle. But this is not a social circle, it is a spiritual circle.
We want to go toward Krishna. And in general, whatever gives us shelter can also obstruct the shelter of Krishna. So, when what is happening, we have to be careful.
Now, normally, it is very difficult to directly take shelter of Krishna. And we need the intermediate shelters to take shelter of Krishna. We cannot directly just centre ourselves on Krishna.
But we need to be aware. If somebody feels the need of an incurring social circle, then we need to make the arrangements to have that incurring social circle. If I have intellectual needs, then I need to make time and search for like-minded association, where I can ask questions, others can ask questions, we can have discussions.
And I have found across the world a few people who are very, with whom we are very linked, Radha Gopi, Shamanand Prabhu. So, Shamanand Prabhu and I, we often, every 2-3 days we talk for half an hour, one hour on phone, whichever part of the world we may be in. And we discuss almost everywhere and everything under the planet earth.
And outside the planet earth also. So, then he gives a very creative Krishna conscious perspective to things, sometimes I share my thoughts. And if somebody else were talking, say, is this Krishna consciousness? And then at the end, some Krishna conscious point will come.
So, the reason I am giving this as an example is that if I have a particular need, then maturity means to recognise that no one is obliged to fulfil my need. Maturity means to recognise that no one is obliged to fulfil my need. So, I give an example, when there is a small infant, and the baby starts crying, and if the world runs, the mother, the father, the nanny or whoever is there, they all run to pacify the child, feed the child, do whatever is required.
But, now the baby is hungry, and the baby needs to be fed. But if an adult is hungry, and the adult starts crying, nobody will come running to feed the adult. That doesn’t mean that the adult’s hunger is not as genuine and as an infant’s hunger.
But being an adult means that the adult knows that the world is not obliged to fulfil my need. I have to take the initiative. I have to provide for myself.
So, that means, maybe go to somewhere, I can buy some food or cook some food and eat it, whatever, make some arrangement. So, maturity means to recognise that no one is obliged to fulfil our needs. This doesn’t mean our needs will not be fulfilled.
But, taking the initiative to have our needs fulfilled is for us to do. In the initial phase of our spiritual life, the way we are going on, we might feel, okay, I am completely contented. And that’s good, we are contented.
But it’s like a baby’s needs are different, a teenager’s needs are different, an adult’s needs are different. And within devotional service, whatever are our needs, it is our responsibility to get them fulfilled. So, if somebody is very much into the mind, in the sense that they like psychology and then they like analysis and they want to understand things better, then they have to find out those devotees who are interested in that kind of analysis.
And then they will understand. Some devotees will chant Hare Krishna and their mind will become peaceful. Some devotees, and it works for them.
For some devotees, if it is not immediately working, that doesn’t mean that they are wrong, that their needs are different. So, each of us has to, like Bhaktivinoda Thakur said, we have to find like-minded association. So, one way of understanding like-minded association is, that association which has the same needs that we have.
So, if my primary need is intellectual, then like-minded association with those whose need is also intellectual. If my primary need is cultural, if somebody’s primary need is cultural, that means, okay, cultural can have many things, oh, deity worship should be done in this way, kirtan should be done like this, yajna should be done like this, this, prasad should be cooked like this, this should be worn like this, whatever. Then, somebody else must say, okay, just do it and move on.
At one level, we can say, the cooking is also a service to Krishna, and of course, a very important service. But different people may have different approaches. For somebody, cooking itself gives them absorption in Krishna.
They cook and they may hear some kirtan, they get absorbed. For some people, cooking is something you do so that you can serve Krishna. And it’s not wrong.
Of course, whatever is cooked, we will offer to Krishna and to Krishna. But for some people, if cooking is their service to Krishna, and they will go very deep into this, you know, you can do like this, you can do like that, you can do like that. But somebody else, you know, come on, you just have to eat and move on.
If it tastes good, that’s great, let’s move. So, if somebody wants to talk a lot about cooking, you know, you can do this, you can mix this, you can do this. When are we going to talk about devotional service? And that is their devotional service.
So, basically, each one of us, when we have a particular shelter, then we have to, at one, so I’ll summarise what I spoke, and then you can have a few questions before I move to the next point. As I said that, we need to be centred on Krishna. But we cannot directly go towards Krishna.
So, we might go through the social, philosophical, cultural or psychological pathways towards Krishna, and I explained each of them. So, what gives us shelter of Krishna can become an alternative shelter to Krishna. And if that starts happening, then in those situations, we need to move forward and take shelter of Krishna, directly as Ropadi did, or we need to expand our connection and take shelter through some other channel.
So, when we do this, if we have particularly say intellectual need or cultural need or psychological need, maturity means that nobody is obliged to fulfil our needs. We have to find the association, find the resources by which that need will be fulfilled, and we can move forward in our practise of bhakti. Any questions or comments to me? Yes, Mr. Jagannath.
So, you were telling that if you have life-funded association where the needs of the group is same. So, sometimes I feel that what my nature is and somebody else’s nature is somewhat different. So, there is also attraction, like you said, unlikable attraction.
So, we feel sometimes we are nourished by self-association of devotees. So, then we have particular problems that we need to find out. Yes, sometimes we are nourished by devotees with entirely different perspectives.
Yes, that is true. Sometimes you want to go deep within the way we are practising bhakti, and sometimes you want to go wide in understanding the many different ways in which bhakti can be practised. So, whichever way nourishes us, that is fine.
I go for these interfaith conferences and to hear broad-minded Christians, Muslims, Jews, Baha’is, you know, talking about their faith. Sometimes they talk about, you know, how there are problems in their philosophy and how they address those problems. Various kind of issues.
They are very candid. And it is very nourishing to see honest, candid people addressing their faith challenges. But I don’t, that man associated me once a year for a few days in a nourishment.
I don’t want that association throughout the year. So, it, we all need different kinds of nourishments. So, we have to find out what our particular need is at a particular time.
And each of us has to learn how we can best nourish ourselves. So, if in a particular way we are practising bhakti, sometimes we feel, yeah, I am doing good distribution, I do enough about good distribution. Let me know about something else more.
That’s fine. My point when I said is that like-minded doesn’t necessarily mean exactly that we all have the same needs. Because in this case, the need itself is, sometimes we have a need to go deep into something.
Sometimes we have a need to know new things. Oh, okay, what is being done over here, what is being done over there? So, it depends. Just whatever nourishment is, that’s good.
Okay? So, isn’t it that these needs are initial, eventually you directly take shelter of Krishna? Yes, but eventually is an elastic term. Eventually can be a few years, it can be a few decades, it can be even a few lifetimes. So, we don’t know how much distance we have to cover to get to Krishna.
So, we aspire for pure devotional service. By the same time, we cannot be unreal in the sense that we have to take steps from where we are formerly. So, we cannot suppress ourselves for too long.
So, if we are feeling nourished directly by connection with Krishna, that’s wonderful. If not, then we nourish ourselves so that we can keep moving towards Krishna. So, I think it’s a little too judgemental and discouraging if we just reduce bhakti to this alone.
Okay, if I am not able to do this, then what? Then I can practise bhakti like this. That’s the mood of Krishna in 12-8 to 12-12. Krishna says, just spontaneously absorb it.
That’s 12-8. If you can’t spontaneously absorb, then be conscientiously absorb it. That’s 12-9.
If you say, you can’t conscientiously absorb me, then Krishna says, just work for me. Even if you can’t think of me, just work for me. Then he goes on dharma and says, then at least work for some good cause.
That means get out of yourself. Start thinking of something bigger than yourself. So, it’s a gradual process and wherever we are, from there we keep taking steps forward.
Is it that the philosophical path is the most important? Yes and no. We can support that by saying, don’t be lazy about understanding philosophy. Because through philosophy you can fix your mind on Krishna.
Having said that, it’s not necessary that the path to Krishna is limited to one. That means some people may just not intrinsically be philosophical. But they have deep faith.
It might be from previous lifetime, it might be from this life’s upbringing, it might be from this life’s purification. And then they just march on toward Krishna. And their nourishment doesn’t come through philosophy.
Especially people who are maybe not so well educated, not so intellectual or even people who are very deeply rooted in the tradition. They may not feel that need. So, for most of us, there is a significant amount of philosophical component.
Because we already come from a rational way of looking at the world. That’s how we have been educated. So, there is a need for rationally understanding philosophy.
But again, when you say it’s a path, yeah, but you could say the same thing. That means when you are going by this path, you have this need. So, each path requires a particular need.
If you are going by road, then you need a car. If you are going by air, you need a plane. If you are going by waterway, you need a boat.
So, each of these are paths and each path has its own set of needs. So, everybody should have some basic philosophical understanding. That’s essential.
And if those philosophical points one is convinced about. I gave recently a series of talks on Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s Dashamul Tattva. And at one level, those ten points are very simple.
Vishnu is supreme, Vishnu is the source of the Vedas, and the souls are parts of Krishna, parts of Vishnu. Very simple points. But actually those ten points, they succinctly convey, give us philosophy.
And somebody is convinced about those ten points, one can just move on steadily in the practise of Bhakti. So, there can be many philosophical details which many people might not be interested in. So, basic philosophical understanding and conviction everyone needs.
But when we talk about philosophy, we often say that philosophy means you are not the body or the soul. But that is like a very basic aspect of philosophy. There is Baldev Vidyabhushan in his Govinda Bhashya commentary course, pages and pages of analysis of how the Vishaya and the Vishesh are related.
Now you say, what is Vishaya and what is Vishesh? Well, that is Gaudiya Vaishna philosophy. But most of us, we don’t find it so much relevant to our practise. So, basic philosophical conviction is definitely required.
But intricate philosophical understanding, that may not be needed for everyone. Even in the past, it is the Brahmans who studied philosophy deeply. But all Varnas, people were inclined towards Dharma and Bhakti.
Okay, you have the mic? So, can you follow through with this question of need-based practise? Because what happens is that… You know, every question you are asking is tough already. So, there is a first point which I will not address right now. You are saying, if we have confidence in a particular approach, say the push-based or the lead-based, then that confidence can seem like arrogance.
How do we maintain humility? Well, Prabhupada himself was, at one level, his purpose was clear. But at another level, his process was variable. That means, when he went to America, the definition of Bhakti was to get everybody to move to the temple.
And a lot of people were doing that. But when Prabhupada came back to India, normally we say that Prabhupada came back victorious and he created like an amazing cultural wave. That’s true.
But we see that how many of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples are actually Indians who became initiated in India. Even most of his spiritual masters, our spiritual masters at that moment, they were introduced abroad. So, it’s not that between 1965 and 1970 or 1972, suddenly India became receptive to Krishna consciousness.
Yes, it became, but it was more of a, you could say, cultural pride that Krishna consciousness is being practised all over the world and how wonderful our culture is. Not that I want to practise it the way Prabhupada is teaching it. So, Prabhupada saw that and therefore, Prabhupada created the Life Member Programme.
The Life Member Programme is like, you could say, a very, very loose affiliation with Krishna consciousness movement. Where we have people chanting 16 rounds, not practising four aggregate principles and, you know, just giving their life to Krishna. And Life Members, at least giving one donation and maybe occasionally coming and visiting the temples.
But Prabhupada accepted that level of connection also. Now, of course, Prabhupada wanted that from there, he gave them his books, he gave them the facility to come to the temples and he often went to their houses. I was talking with one Srila Prabhupada disciple.
He said that, you know, Prabhupada must have visited more than 20-30 thousand people’s houses when he was in India. Every day he would go to so many people’s houses. And I was talking with, his name was Giriraj Maharaj.
And he said that, you know, Prabhupada, when he would go to Life Members’ houses, he was like very broad. Every Hindu, if they go to their house, they will have their own altar. And probably they will have various demigods and semi-gods.
Semi-gods is say me God. I am God. So now, Giriraj Maharaj told me, I don’t remember a single incident when Prabhupada criticised what was there on their altar.
He said, only Krishna should be there. No. Na buddhi-bhedam janaye na jnanam karma-sangeetam.
Joshet sarva-karmani dvanta samachar. Don’t disturb the minds of ignorant people, who are also attached, but just engage them so that they can be gradually elevated. So, the point is that, you could have these, who are like full-time devotees, and here we have people who are just appreciative of Krishna Consciousness.
And Prabhupada was appreciative of them also. And Prabhupada engaged many of them, who helped in giving contacts and building temples. Now, if you see, most of our movement is neither here nor here.
It’s somewhere in between. That means we have congregation members, who are quite committed, but you cannot expect people who have families and jobs to be like full-time devotees. But they are not like life members also.
So, Prabhupada, now was it need-based or was it push-based? Both. Prabhupada was pushing everyone toward Krishna, but a, somebody from here could not be pushed here. Then he was ready to accept them over here, and then gradually give them a path forward.
So, we also need to do something similar. Certainly, we would want everyone to aspire for and achieve pure devotional service. But we are not at that level, and it’s like sometimes you push people, and then you want to push them toward Krishna, but we end up pushing them away from Krishna.
Isn’t it? Now, as preachers, we often count how many people came to Krishna, or how many people I brought to Krishna, but there is no count of how many people went away from Krishna because of me. It has happened at least with me, with so many people. I was in college, and after that I was working in a company, and then I used to go, I was staying in the Kunjivahari temple only, and I used to go to my company at that time.
So, I used to get into the company bus, and two stops afterward, one of my co-students from my college, he also joined the same company, so he also got into the bus. And during the maybe 45 minutes, one hour, I would just chant or read or hear something, and not talk with anyone because all these are karmas, I spent time with them. And one day, this friend made a big mistake of asking what happened.
Then in the next 45 minutes, I gave a complete six session Bhagavad Gita crash course. You know, existence of God, existence of soul, law of karma, that only Krishna is God, and chanting of the Yoga Dharma, other devatas are not to be worshipped, all the four parts of Yoga. And I was patting myself on my back.
You know, how precisely I summarised everything. I didn’t even notice that his eyes were glazing. And then, after that, every time, normally a bus has two doors.
So, whenever I would get in the bus, when he would get in the bus, he would peep in, see where I am sitting, and enter from the other door. So, just a few years ago, I met him in Seattle. He is married, he has children.
So, his sister has become a devotee. So, then we remember that we both had a good laugh. So, probably his sister undid the damage that I had done.
So, he is practising bhakti now. So, at some level he is practising. So, my point is that, it’s both, we want to push people to a higher level, definitely.
But if somebody is not ready to be pushed to a higher level, then you don’t want to push them away. Okay, you be at this level, and that’s also one level of connection. Now, we may not want to spend a lot of time and energy on those people.
So, what about confidence about what we are doing and whether it leads to arrogance? I think arrogance comes when we start thinking that our way of practising or sharing bhakti is the only way, or even necessarily the best way. If you think, okay, this is what I feel inspired to do, this is what I am going to offer to Krishna, and to some extent it is good to feel that, you know, this is the most important thing. This is what our movement needs, this is what should be done.
But that doesn’t have to come at the expense of minimising others. Okay, that is not what I feel inspired to do, but that is important, others are doing it. Now, is that most important? I may not feel that importance that much, that’s okay.
But just because I don’t feel it is important doesn’t mean it has to be minimised. It is said a fanatic is one, so there are, people hold opinions and opinions hold people. So, a fanatic is not one who holds the opinion, a fanatic is one who is held by the opinion.
So, this, you cannot see anything beyond this at all. Then it becomes a problem. So, certainly we all are aspiring to ask them to go towards the devotional service and take others also, but each of us will feel inspired to cater to a particular, some of us may feel inspired to cater to a particular need, and that is perfectly fine.
Sorry, loudly? Not should be, should be. See, it is like, preaching should be done like this, should not be done like that. We do what we feel inspired to do.
And primarily, at least when I write or when I speak, it’s like I know that is the time when I am absorbing Krishna. If others are benefited, that’s good. We are not.
Prabhupada writes in Chaitanya Charita Amrit that one who is writing for Krishna, they should not think they are writing to deliver the world. They are writing to purify themselves. And only if while writing to purify yourself, others are benefited, that’s good.
So, it’s a, there are, even in the outside world, there are different kinds of people. So, there are some people who might be just attracted to a straight, this is what you should do and move forward in their lives. That’s wonderful.
But Krishna’s movement is big enough to have different kinds of people, attracting different kinds of people. So, I wouldn’t say it has to be done in a liberal way or it has to be done in a strict way. Basically, we all, according to our nature and our situation, find the best way we can serve Krishna.
And whatever works for us, whatever works for others, that’s good. So, I don’t think there should be any, that it should be liberal or it should be conservative and independent. There are liberal people who will do things liberally.
And actually speaking, even the most liberal person in ISKCON is actually more conservative than the most conservative people in other religions. Our sadhana is so strict, our four regulative principles. And I go to the interfaith conferences and there is no other religious practitioner who has, who follow four regulative principles or they have this kind of sadhana.
So, when we are using the word liberal, that’s actually a very liberal use of the word liberal. You have a question? You have a question, bro? Okay, we’ll ask. Second mic is there somewhere, no? We can pass on to him.
Yeah. Okay. What does shelter of Krishna mean? Basically, you don’t depend on anything other than Krishna.
That means that, okay, if I am writing, if I am speaking, if I am doing deity worship, if I am doing counselling, or whatever I am doing, if I feel satisfied just doing that, the results come, that’s good. The results don’t come, I’m still satisfied. Because, now that could be because I like to do that, or it could be that, you know, I’m serving Krishna.
See, I talk about the Bhagavad Gita, you know, there are two conclusions to the Bhagavad Gita, and they point to two kinds of successes. At one level, Krishna and Arjuna, they have a conversation, and that conversation is successful in the sense that Krishna persuades Arjuna. And Arjuna says, So, that is externally successful conversation.
Now, the same message is spoken by Sanjay to Dhritarashtra. But Dhritarashtra still remains attached. So, the same message that transforms Arjuna does not transform Dhritarashtra.
But, verses 76 and 77, they describe, So, what is it? That he’s remembering the message, and he’s remembering the form. So, just by speaking about Krishna, irrespective of the result of speaking about Krishna, he’s satisfied. Because he’s experiencing Krishna out there.
So, basically, if we are not dependent on the results of our service to Krishna, for ourselves, of course, we want the results, no doubt. You know, because we are serving Krishna in this world, and we want to serve Krishna in this world, so we would like to offer some results to Krishna. But, if we are not dependent on them, then, that is, that is also at one level, we are, that means we are satisfied in Krishna.
Now, of course, we could say, if we are not even doing our service at all, we are saying, I’m satisfied. Well, that is not proper. I’m detached from the results, and I’m detached from the service also.
Then, we are in Tamboguna. When I’m doing this travelling kind of outreach, I asked His Holiness Radha Maharaj once, Maharaj, how do we evaluate the success of travelling preaching? If we are at a particular place, we may see the project growing and people coming. So, first thing Maharaj said is, don’t even try to evaluate it.
He was a little taken aback. Then probably Maharaj saw that I was taken aback. Maharaj said, then he just replied, if you are invited again to come, that is a success.
Then he said that, if the organisers organise bigger programmes for you, if you choose it, that’s also a bigger success. Then he said that, if people start connecting with you, specifically, or people see channels to connect with you, or you get to know that people are connecting more with Krishna because of you, then that’s another level of success. But in India, it happens much faster.
Preaching in the West is like eating dry chapati on a golden plate. It is, not to minimise the Western scenario, but it is, people are not, there are not so many people, not so many big programmes. So, it is small, small.
It happens very gradually. So, there is a glamour, oh, somebody is going to America or whatever. In India, that is still there.
When I first went to America in 2014, I was supposed to go to America in 1998, when I was, I gave my GRE. And all my relatives were very upset with me, when I didn’t go. In 2015, when I first went to America and came back, my relatives who had never called me in the last 18 years, they called me.
They said, now your life is successful. So, there is certain amount of glamour associated with it. But actually, relatively speaking, preaching in India is much more fulfilling, not, okay, it’s also fulfilling in the West, if one is satisfied with very gradual growth.
But here we can see more tangible results. So, now, the reason I was saying this is that we will have to work at each level according to the particular situation. So, there is no need to impose any, like, one set on everything.
Did I answer your question? Okay, yeah, is it, okay, no, is it like, is it only chanting or is it only hearing or is it only remembering, is it only detourship? No, there are, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says in the Chaitanya Chakram that each of these can lead us to perfection. And Bhakti Prasad also has given examples of individuals who perfected themselves by one path itself. So, it doesn’t have to be necessarily one thing.
It can be anything. So, if we are content in our practise of Bhakti, it’s a very lofty state, but still, what Krishna says, yam labdhva chaaparam labham manyate na adhikam tatha, yasmin sthiton dukhena gurunatha inchayate, we will not come, we are not at that level, but still we are overall contented with our life, this is what I am doing, this is what I want to do more. Then that is, then that is, we are reasonably sheltered in Krishna.
Initially when we joined the ashram, initially when we joined the ashram, we see that, you know, we have our faith really, and then we see that our needs are also fulfilled. But eventually it has been observed, you know, we see that, you know, we go fulfilling our needs, so we start developing in that area, and to, because to surrender and leave, both grow together, or does it grow? Okay, so is it that, say when we find a particular niche in our practise of Bhakti, where our need is served, and then we specialise in that, and we start serving others’ need over there. So then, afterward, that surrender may not be there.
That’s a difficult question. I would say that, it’s a, different devotees will work in different ways to serve Krishna. So, surrender is not necessarily a one-zero thing.
It, there could be degrees, and, you know, Prabhu, Tamal Krishna Maharaj was in India, and he was playing a very important role in the Juhu project. But he just found the management unbearable. It was exhausting.
And he said, I want to go and preach. And, that’s also a good example, in India there was no preaching. Because, at that time, the Indians, for them, Prabhupada’s western disciples, they were young.
So, they were like, initially curiosity objects. Oh, who is this western person like wearing dhoti kurta or sari? And then afterwards, they were more like symbols of their cultural pride. See, our culture is so great, they are practising.
But they were not interested in learning from them. So, there was no preaching over there. I was talking with Krishna Chandra Prabhu in Mumbai.
He was telling me that, initially when Giriraj Maharaj came to his place, no, he, first, Giriraj Maharaj came to, you know, give some prasad and basically to make life memorable. So, he said, I actually kept him waiting outside my office for hours and hours. And he says, now, I’ll wait hours to meet him for something.
So, things have changed. So, initially, they did not value so much. So, for him to do preaching, he had to go to America.
And, at that time, Prabhupada was not very happy because Prabhupada needed him over there. But what to do? He felt strong that he has to go to America. And actually, for him also, it was a challenge.
Because, generally speaking, okay, see, there is, there is facility and there is freedom. In general, in our movement, we will not get both together. If you want freedom, freedom means, okay, this is how I want to preach, this is how I want to serve, this is what I want to do.
Then, you will not get the facility. Why? Because those who are the current leaders of the movement, they will have a particular vision of how to use the resources that they have. So, if you need the freedom, then you cannot demand facilities.
Then, we can get the freedom, but we have to create the facilities for ourselves. That’s why Tamabha Krishna Maharaj went to America. He said, I want to go to America.
Prabhupada did not appoint him as a G.B.C. for America. So, when he went there, here he was like one of the top leaders, and there he was like a visiting sannyasi, and he went to one temple, another temple, and he gave a few classes, and then he did not know what to do. Then, he had this, by Krishna’s mercy, the brain wave.
What was that? The bus party, Radha Ramayana bus party. Stunning preaching happened over there. So, he created that facility.
Now, Prabhupada did not reject him because of that. Prabhupada was happy. He was doing preaching, and when Prabhupada saw that, he was also making devotions.
Prabhupada was very happy with that. So, then he said, Tamabha Krishna Maharaj will not surrender. No, you can’t say like that.
He was a very great soul, but at that particular point, that’s the way he wanted to serve, and Prabhupada accommodated that. So, I am not recommending rebellion over here because see, generally, if we have facility, we can’t have freedom. If we have freedom, we can’t have facilities.
And usually, wherever we are, the grass seems greener on the other side. So, if we have facilities but no freedom, then, you feel, oh, I don’t have freedom, I don’t have freedom, I don’t have freedom. I can’t do this, I can’t do that.
And then you realise, I have no facilities. What am I doing? What am I going to do? So, it’s a choice. So, now, if some devotees need more freedom, then they cannot demand facilities.
And then they may use that freedom, and how they use it is up to them. Sometimes they use the freedom, sometimes they abuse the freedom. We don’t know.
So, is this that those who want freedom are not surrendered? I wouldn’t say surrender is 1-0. It is like Indra Maharaj, he negotiated with the spiritual master, Narad Bhu. Indra Maharaj said that Narad Bhu said, just tolerate, you know, honour, dishonour.
Actually, Narad Bhu tried to checkmate him. He said, you are a small child, and children don’t take honour, dishonour so seriously. Sometimes children, they fight and they quarrel and they say, cut me.
I will never talk with you. And next day they are playing together. So, children don’t take honour, dishonour so seriously.
And he says, if you are not a child, if you are spiritually, if you are an adult, you are mature, then mature people don’t take honour, dishonour seriously. They are transcendental. So, then, both ways he sort of caught him.
But Dhruv Maharaj had his need and he got it addressed. So, he said that, what you are saying is true, but I can’t apply this. Then his spiritual master accommodated him at that place, the way he could.
So, if we find a niche in which we can serve Krishna, then, if that’s how we want to serve Krishna, it’s not necessary that it’s a lack of surrender. It’s just that we need a particular space, a particular amount of freedom. But then don’t demand facilities and don’t complain for not getting facilities.
If we want to do something in a new way, then we may have to take the resources, we may have to create the resources for ourselves. That’s the challenge. Prabhupada’s godbrothers told him that, you come and work under us and then we will give you sannyas.
And then we will send you on our behalf to America. Whether that would happen or not happen, Prabhupada said, I myself go. It’s a challenge.
So, surrender is not necessarily one zero. Ultimately, I think every, I have talked with many spiritual masters also when I travel abroad and I, see in India, the overall mode of instruction is vertical. The authority gives instructions.
But in America, it’s more horizontal. The spiritual master disciples sit on the same table and we take food together. I can’t imagine that.
But when I went to Chicago, I was with Maharaj. He told me that, no, you take lunch with Maharaj. I said, I cannot do that.
He said, no, Maharaj wants that. I said, no, no, I will just talk with Maharaj. And then Maharaj said that, Radha when you are not taking food.
I didn’t know what to say after that. I took it that time. So, things are different in different places.
So, why I am making this point is that, I talked with one very senior Prabhupada disciple. He is also quite a well-known spiritual master. He told me that, I am happy if my disciple is happily engaged.
So, whether they are doing exactly what I am telling them to do or they are doing something which they can inspire. If they are happily engaged, then that is good. So, it’s a complicated, when it comes to specific applications, it’s a complicated question.
And we will have to carefully, we don’t want to, in the name of freedom, just go into illusion. Because freedom brings a lot of responsibility with it. And see, the lesser the structure in our life, the greater the rupture the mind can cause in our life.
The lesser the structure in our life. That means, say, if I wake up in the morning, and I have my whole day, maybe I will read Bhagavatam, maybe I will, maybe I will counsel this devotee, maybe I will do this. I have no obligatory thing to do.
And the mind will say, you know, you just sleep a little bit. Or maybe, you know, surf the net to find some interesting news. I will do this, do that.
And somebody will spend hours in that. So, it’s, we all need structure in our life. So, it requires a lot of maturity to be able to create one’s own structure for one’s own life.
It’s not that easy. So, don’t create surrender as a, like a one-zero thing. We need to gradually find how best we can serve Krishna.
And if we specialise in a particular field, then it is good to find out some senior devotee who is specialised in that field. Or at least who understands that field well. And then, take their guidance about how we can work in that field.
Does that answer your question? So, how do we strike a perfect balance? Well, nothing is perfect in life. So, we all learn by experience. And sometimes we err on the side of, maybe we are too strict.
And sometimes we err on the side of being too lenient. So, life doesn’t come with a guarantee of right decisions. Sometimes we make the right decisions.
And sometimes we make the decisions right. Okay, I took this decision. What do I do after that? I had to make it right.
I was travelling with a group of western people, or westernised Indians, you could say. And I had my bottle of water and I drank some water from the bottle. And usually I touch my mouth to it.
So, they asked, can I have some water? I said, no, I have touched my mouth. So what? I am thirsty. So, they said, no, no, no.
I cannot give this water. There is not even an English word for jhoota. Then I said, in our culture, if you have touched the mouth to some water, we cannot give it to others.
You mean, if I am dying of thirst, you will not give me water? So, after that, that person went and complained to that devotee who had organised my programme. You know, he talks so much about care and he doesn’t care. So, then I was talking with that devotee and he said, you know, he told me, you should have given water.
I said, you can’t do that. If they are going to feel so offended, what is more important? I don’t know. I honestly don’t know whether I am going to do it again.
Maybe if I am travelling with western people, I will drink water from a bottle. So, there is no perfect balance. But I think we all have to learn from, sometimes with our intelligence, sometimes with our experience.
It’s like if you say that you are going on a thin mountain path and that mountain path is winding. It’s a winding mountain path. So, you could say one side is a liberal, one side is a conservative.
So, now, you, you can’t see the full path. It’s like if the path is winding this way, then you have to go this way. The path is winding that way, you have to go that way.
So, how do we know? It’s like in life, sometimes things need to be kept as they are, sometimes things need to be changed. Giriraj Maharaj told me about how careful Prabhupada was on not offending people. When he entered some devotee’s house and some devotees had, the people had cooked food with onion and garlic.
And then, Prabhupada said, Prabhupada, there is onion and garlic in this. And Prabhupada said, there is no onion and garlic in this. And then Prabhupada said, no, he said, he picked up onion and garlic.
So, this is onion and garlic. Prabhupada said, there is no onion and garlic in this. And he was bewildered.
And he actually brought it to Prabhupada and said, Prabhupada. Prabhupada looked at it and said, there is no onion and garlic in this. And Prabhupada and all the devotees, they took that food.
And then, Prabhupada went back and told that, Prabhupada said, in an Indian house, if a sadhu comes to your house and then rejects the food and goes, it is a disaster. He said that it is our mistake that we did not tell them that we don’t take onion and garlic. We have been emphasised very quickly.
So, then Prabhupada was telling me that actually, when Prabhupada heard this, then I understood that becoming Krishna conscious is the adventure. It is not just do this, don’t do this. No, it is how to be Krishna conscious in various situations is an adventure.
Now, again, I might be giving examples which might seem to go toward the liberal. But I am not saying that we have to be liberal. I am just saying that there are times when we need to learn from experience what is right, what is wrong.
I went to a temple and there the temple president is a Mataji. And she herself came to pick me up. There was no one else in the car.
I was a little apprehensive. She is of course old, she is 60, 65. And because no one was there, I told Mataji, you yourself came for picking me up.
You must be very busy. She said, actually everyone else is busy. I am free.
I said, really? What do you mean? She said that actually everybody has fixed services. My schedule is variable. And I also want to talk with you.
And then she drove me. Her husband is also a senior devotee. And the next day there was another programme.
And she said, I will drive you to the programme. And then she drove me to the programme and I came back. It was a long drive, one hour or something like that.
And then after that, two, three days, then her husband, we know he is a very senior devotee, but we know each other. So he met me and he looked at me and he smiled. He said, I am surprised you are wandering around town with my wife.
You know, I expressed to her and she said, you know, she is the only person who is free and others are not free. And I thought that she knows logistics over here. And Gaurang Prabhu had told me for the first time when he had gone to America, he had gone to meet Rampal Maharaj.
And Rampal Maharaj, the person who had come to pick him up was the Matai. So I said that, so he said that, yes, now she likes you, she likes your association. We talk about western outreach and everything.
He said, but at least you should express your reservation. So I said, Prabhu, I don’t want to inconvenience devotees. He said, no, but he said, in this case, you should express your reservation.
So now, I thought I was being, I was just, I was trying not to be inconvenience, but then sometimes that can be a matter of criticism. So then I talked with Rampal Maharaj about this. So he said that, you know, you should, you should not do that.
And he said, if you are going to do that, if you are tall, you have to do that. You know, before you start the drive, call someone and tell them, you know, that I am going on this drive, this is the situation, what should I do? And they say, yes, then tell them that we will reach in about half an hour, 45 minutes. And then after you reach them, tell them that we have reached here.
So basically, it’s like somebody has a track of you. Of course, that’s an unavoidable situation. Try to avoid as much as possible.
So, you know, sometimes we may be, we may be liberal and people may expect us to be conservative. Sometimes we may be conservative, people may expect us to be liberal. And there is no perfect balance to this.
We have to feel our way forward. We have to feel our way forward and move on in life. And so I think it’s more that if our purpose is to serve Krishna, then even if we do something wrong, Krishna will tell us that either through, we will ask him to realise it, something will go wrong or somebody will point it out to us.
Maybe you are stretching too much over here. Maybe you are being too tight over here. So I think it’s a matter of gradually through experience, intelligence and interaction.
Use our intelligence, we get some experience and we interact with others. Then we learn. Sorry, sorry, I got carried away.
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Are you trying to go to the west? I was a little too blunt. I asked Niranjan Maharaj this question. Because in Ukraine, the preaching is going on very big.
So I asked Maharaj, how do people take up Krishna consciousness so much in Ukraine? What is the psychology? Maharaj asked me, do you spend a lot of time in Ukraine? See, I have not been even once to Ukraine. And Maharaj knows it because he is a GBC over there. He is very polite.
So I would say that I am not going too much into details, but there are four broad, you could say, indicators of the rise of sattva in the western world. And India has also become westernised. And those are broadly the channels for us to reach western people.
Otherwise, we appear too religious, too exclusivist, too sectarian and too otherworldly. Too religious means we have our own dress and we just appear too exclusivist. This is your only will.
And too otherworldly. We just don’t care about this world. We only care about going back to Godhead.
So because of that, and these are three broad, there could be many more, we don’t seem to connect with western people. Especially western people. But those four broad things are mindfulness, environmentalism, yoga and veganism.
So, you know, people are very troubled by the mind and Buddhist mindfulness is very big. Yoga is also very big. Many people are, many, many people are becoming vegans now.
Vegans. And many people are interested in environmentalism. So Govardhan Eco Village is actually providing, there is yoga, there is, environmentalism is a big thing over there.
And they are working on something for mindfulness now. So my primary thrust among these four is on mindfulness. So you tell people you are not the body, they feel it too abstract.
Yeah, that is something which can be adapted. It’s not so much what words you use, but what topics you focus on. Devam Maharaj told me that he prefers the word infinite consciousness to God.
He even doesn’t use the word soul, he uses the word consciousness. Bhakti Maharaj told me that, it’s quite a humour for this one. It is sinful to use the word sinful in western preaching.
It will alienate people. So, yeah, sinful, hell, bona fide, malefied, that kind of things. It’s a little, people need to be persuaded rather than convinced.
It’s a subtle difference. It’s like, this is the right thing? No, just tell me how this works. So, then I’ll take it up.
It’s like that. So we have to find out what their need is. I was talking about mindfulness.
I was saying that you tell people you are not the body, they are not interested. But you tell people you are not your mind, and they are very interested. Because the mind troubles everyone.
And if they understand they are not the mind, they are also understanding they are not the body. Isn’t it? So, we have to, like I told about Christians rebranding God, not of the cosmic supply, but of the What time shall we stop? Yeah, you can use Krishna, but the way you present Krishna, I present Krishna not as God, but as the object of loving yogic meditation. So, people are interested in yoga, people are very interested in love, people are interested in meditation.
So, the word God exists. There was a, at an interfaith conference, there was a Christian pastor, they had done some survey among American youth. What is your conception of a pastor? Or of a pastor or priest? You know, Protestants or Christians, depending on whatever, post-patriots or Catholics.
So, one youth, one young boy said, a priest is someone who is constantly worried that someone somewhere is having some fun. So, their conception is that religious people are just stopping us in our enjoyment. So, then, you know, we have to, we have to make sure that we don’t run into those roadblocks.
So, I think it’s gradually, if somebody connects with us, they will realise that we are personalists. Is it that in the first, first interaction itself, we have to give them the whole, give them the full thing? Not necessarily. It doesn’t seem to work.
People will gradually take it up. And if it, if it doesn’t, if it hits some sore spots, then they will never come back. So, we have to be careful.
We are going to talk about Krishna. But how we talk about it, that’s important. Yes, ma’am.
So, Prabhupada, when he went to the West, he preached very strongly. But now devotees in the West are preaching very mildly, you could say. And now in India also, many devotees are maybe adopting that.
Industrialisation is coming. So, how will we go on? Everything depends on, not everything, but when we preach, a lot is dependent on the situation. Strategy is determined by the situation.
I think 1920s, 1930s, India was the world hockey champion. And nobody could compete with India. But then that time hockey was played on grass.
And then they changed to AstroTurf. And hockey, it was more like, in grass, it was more like skill. But AstroTurf, it was all muscles.
So, Indians didn’t train for muscles. And then India is not longer at the top of the hockey now. So, now we say Prabhupada preached strongly in the West.
But then, let’s say, Prabhupada, when he came to India, what did he do? He, as I said, he accommodated life members. Was he strong? Yes, he was strong. But he did not reject them if they were not ready to commit themselves as initiated devotees.
He gave them a place through life membership. So, the 1960s were an extraordinary time in American history, where people were already rebellious. They had already rejected.
So, I talk actually a lot with, elaborately with Narmada Maharaj about this. I had asked Maharaj, what was your vision for starting over the Nico village? So, Maharaj first said, I am not a very organised person. But then Maharaj, after that Maharaj gave elaborate answers.
Maharaj said that when Prabhupada went to America, at that time, the hippie generation had already rejected mainstream culture. And if they reject mainstream religion, mainstream education, mainstream relationship kind of thing, everything they had rejected. And Prabhupada gave them philosophical foundation for their rejection.
So, they were already in the mood of rejecting. When in a lecture Prabhupada says, the hippies had already done Sarva Dharma Nithya Chakra. I taught them Mam Ekam Sharanam.
So, but when Prabhupada came to India, he says that India at that time, the mood was of cultural nationalism. That India had been subordinated by foreign rule for thousands, for several hundred years, and Britishers had ruled us. And now, those same western people who had ruled us are taking our practise of culture.
And Prabhupada tapped into that mood of cultural nationalism. And what Prabhupada Prabhupada made the life membership programme, and he made it like a prestigious thing. I met one person in Canada, and he told me that his father was a ISKCON life member, and not only ISKCON life member, actually on his office name plate, he had put ISKCON life member as like a degree.
So, it had become, ISKCON had such a prestigious organisation at that time, but being a life member of ISKCON was a prestigious thing. So, Prabhupada accepted them also at that level. So, was Prabhupada not preaching strongly? See, I am a little, I said Prabhupada was effective.
So, whatever was required, he did that. There are, Prabhupada was, I think, I don’t know exact event now. One devotee told me, I have asked Hira Raj Maharaj, Hira Raj Maharaj told me, he will find out the exact reference, but he is also.
See, Prabhupada was in Mexico or somewhere in South America, and they asked the national television, they said, they had like 5 seconds or 10 seconds, what message would you like to give to, what would you like to speak to Mexico? So, Prabhupada, I am like, he spoke something very general, he said, I pray that God’s blessings come on Mexico, something like that. In 5, 10, 15 seconds, what can you, what can you preach? So, Prabhupada just acted as a saintly person, invoking God’s blessings. Now, Prabhupada obviously would not do that all the time, definitely not, but he did that at that time.
So, we have to see what is effective. So, then Maharaj told me that, because there is religious violence, so much violence in the name of religion, like I wrote a book on the Ramayana, and it has got into some national book award, it is in the final stages now. So, they had an interview.
So, in that interview, the first question was that Ram has become very politicised, and can violence be justified in the name of religion in any situation? So, as one question he says, is the Ramayana an attack, depicting an attack by North Indians or South Indians? It is crazy. So, there is what, I was at this Ramayana conference, Ramayana Convocation. So, there is one person, he says, I am from the RPC.
What is RPC? It is Ravan Protection Committee. So, they said Ravan was a Dravidian, and Ram was Aryan, and these Aryans have spoiled the good name of the Dravidians. So, we have to redeem the good name of Ravan.
And it is strange. So, the point, I am not going to go into too much tangent about it. The point I am making is that we have to find out what is effective, and to find out what is effective, we have to know what are the sore spots of people.
So, we are growing enormously. India is the powerhouse of ISKCON right now, in terms of number of temples, number of devotees, number of books distributed. It is huge.
It is extraordinary. Especially if you go to the West and come back and see the preaching in India, it is very encouraging to see that. But westernisation is happening, and we will have to find out what works the best.
There will always be devotees who will be giving their direct Krishna consciousness, and there will be people who will be attracted to that. But there will be others who may have to do other things. And they will attract people in different ways.
The challenge will be that if somebody gives a class without speaking about Krishna. When I go in Intel and places like that, I can’t speak about Krishna. I can mention God, I can mention infinite consciousness.
I was talking with, who is the Maharaja of three years? Not Krishna Shekhar Maharaj. Hanuman Prasad Maharaj. So, Hanuman Prasad Maharaj was invited to a conference, and he was invited to give a call in lecture.
And it was about consciousness. So, then and after that, somebody, somehow a professor invited him, and then that talk became so interesting that his HOD came. And then the dean came.
And then the principal, everybody came. And then that professor came and told him, you know, if something goes wrong, if you speak something wrong, then I will be ruined. So, I said, don’t worry.
And then, you know, when I had gone, when I started going to the West, Prasad Maharaj had told me one thing that when you answer questions, be very careful of planted questions. Planted questions means somebody asks a question to get you into trouble. So, they want to give you an answer.
Now, a typical example of a planted question is, have you, like you ask a man, husband, have you stopped beating your wife? Have you stopped beating your wife? If you say yes, that means you were beating your wife before. If you say no, what a shameless guy, you are still beating your wife. So, you can’t answer the question, you have to question the question.
So, anyway, that’s the example of planted question. So, somebody asked him, Maharaj, so, Swami, what is your religion? He could say, I could see that professor when invited, he becomes so tense. And everybody is looking at him.
So, Maharaj said that. I told him that, no, I may have my religion, you may have your religion. Now, here I have come to talk about consciousness.
If you have any question about consciousness, you can ask. If you want to know about my religion, after the class, we can meet personally and we can talk. So, if somebody is giving us a podium, somebody else is giving us a forum to speak, then in their forum, we need to speak what is acceptable within their parameters.
But if we start speaking that in our parameters, our podium also. So, if I come to a temple in a Bhagavatam class, I don’t use the word Krishna. And I start using the word infinite consciousness.
I’ll get into infinite trouble. So, if somebody else is giving us some forum, we have to follow the parameters of that forum. We cannot, several of my books have been published by mainstream publishers.
So, when I was talking with my literary agent, he told me that no publisher will want to, no, mainstream publisher will want to act as a propaganda tool for an organisation. So, he said that, if you give wisdom and you say that you are affiliated with this organisation, it’s not a problem. But if you mention that organisation and promote that organisation, then no publisher will publish your book.
Because they don’t want, if you want to promote your organisation, use your organisation’s forums for that. If you are going to some other forum, then you have to deliver what they expect you to deliver. Now, of course, what they expect us to deliver, if it has zero intersection with what we want to do, what we want to deliver, then there’s no point in going there.
But if there is some intersection, then we have to stay within that intersection. So, I think within our temples, we should make sure, very sure, that we just give direct Krishna consciousness. And depending on where we are, we might have to use certain, for particular audiences, we might have to use particular things.
But if, in our temples itself, we start giving sort of vague, vishivashika, not vishivashika, vague sort of things, then it will be a problem. So, thank you very much.