The Monk’s Podcast 93 with Radha Gopinatha Prabhu – Preserving a simple heart in a complex world

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Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna, Radha Gopinath Prabhu.
Welcome back to the Mohan’s Podcast. It’s wonderful to have you here once again. Hare Krishna.
Thank you for sparing your time. I thought of today. Actually, one of the reasons why I agreed to do it is your questions force me to go deeper into things which I have never thought.
That’s one of the reasons why I agreed. I said, let him ask some questions. It helped me to go deeper and probably understand subject matter better.
Now, there is much knowledge that we often embody it, but we don’t articulate it so much. So I feel you are an embodiment of simplicity. So I thought we would discuss today on this topic of simplicity in an age of complex complexity.
So I mean, as I said, I have some questions. But would you like to start with something specifically? Or how do we go ahead? How would you prefer? Well, I think that’s better. Guide my heart.
Otherwise, I cannot go anywhere. Thank you. So in the simplicity, I feel you can have the three levels.
One is at a physical level where we try to live as simply as possible. And that there is a lot discussed on that, how we can decrease our use of gadgets and other things. So I wouldn’t, I didn’t want to focus on that topic today.
But simplicity, I was talking about in terms of the simplicity of heart and simplicity of purpose. So. We, Saralta is talked about as a virtue in our tradition quite a bit.
At the same time, there are some virtues which can be both misunderstood and exploited. Like humility, if we misunderstand it, people may walk over us and we may let them walk over us in the name of humility. So similarly, simplicity is also a virtue that can be misunderstood in terms of might lead to naivety and a person might be in the name of being simple, might be exploited.
So we see this dynamic in in the Nanda Maharaj pastime. Nanda Maharaj is with Vasudev. At that time, Vasudev warns him that there’s likely to be some danger in Vrindavan.
So you go back quickly. And then Giriraj Maharaj analyzes pastime in his book, Watering the Seed, where he says that Mansa Prabhupada and Tamal Krishna were talking since Giriraj is simple. So he didn’t know whether it was a compliment or what was it.
So then he said that he was managing the Juhu temple. It was a very complicated project. And recently his book has come out.
Yeah, I was reading that pastime recently. Oh, really? Okay, amazing. So, you know, that simplicity, even in the practice of bhakti, though we know it’s a virtue, but for certain services like Vasudev was in the political world, so he had to be, you could say, sharp and sophisticated.
Nanda Maharaj was a cowherd man. So he didn’t need that. So that dynamism in bhakti is there.
And different roles might require different levels of simplicity or maybe sophistication or whatever is the other quality we want to talk about. So in that context, today we may not be in influential positions like say Vasudev, but still we live in a complicated world. And we have to deal with different kinds of people with different levels of complexity within them.
So how do you think we can be simple in such a situation? Well, you’re asking a simple person a complicated question. Maybe you could just share how you live, Ravi, with an embodiment of simplicity. I think it also has to do with a person’s basic nature also.
Okay. And after understanding the philosophy, some aspects naturally appeal probably because of that nature. And that attracts the attention and that aspect may be naturally and easily imbibed by those and it may appeal to those who are probably of that nature.
And they feel reassured to know that even that is accommodated. So I have a place in devotion. Otherwise, I can be depressed thinking I am not as complicated.
And I mean, I’m not able to do all this Herculean tasks. But then you see Kolavecha Sridhar, you know, just living a simple life and happy. And Mahaprabhu drinks from his pot and says, I’m getting purified.
You feel, wow, even though I’m not like Rupa Goswami who received so much mercy, you know. So suddenly, people are a little bit simple. That gives some hope.
So I think whatever naturally appeals and attracts and it also happens to be that kind of nature because of that they get attracted, it gives reassurance and they may probably go deeper and study those incidents, study the personality, study the purports of those and feel some solace and also confidence that even this way a devotional service could be done and you could be a part of a community and be happily engaged. So this is a striking example. When you said that Kolavecha Sridhar was very simple and you contrasted him with Rupa Goswami.
So then here, are you talking about say Rupa Goswami in terms of the abilities that he had, the kind of responsibilities he took up, the kind of books he read? Means, can we really say that Rupa Goswami was not simple because you’re also living a Kanta Sridhar. At a physical level, he was simple. But yet, are you talking here in terms of having a lot of abilities and taking a lot of responsibilities in terms of contrasting him with Kolavecha Sridhar? This is why I wanted to, I agreed to hear you because you would force me to, you know, kind of think deeper on that line.
Okay, for example, say Ramananda Rai or Raghunath Das Goswami will say that they were not simple. Their whole, you know, dealings with Mahaprabhu was straightforward and very simple and pure. But because they had this background and they had this particular nature and that particular type of service, which they really knew how to deal with it.
Whether it is Vasudev, whether it is Ramananda Rai and he used, Ramananda Rai used the same thing to facilitate Lord Chaitanya giving his mercy to Maharashtra Pratap Rudra. No, no one else could have done it probably as efficiently and as effectively, you know. How did Ramananda Rai help Pratap Rudra to get mercy? More of Sarovar Bhattacharya? No, he praised the king in front of Lord Chaitanya saying that my lord, you had asked me to join you and resign.
So when I went and put up my papers, so to say, Maharaj Pratap Rudra, he was so happy that what I could not receive, you are receiving and he gave me a full stipend for the whole, full payment for the whole lifetime as long as, gave me full permission and by hearing your name, his eyes were having tears and he embraced me, which means he had no envy. Which is, Prabhupada mentions that he had no envy to his subordinate receiving more mercy than him and rather he could have stopped, but he facilitated it wholeheartedly and he said, you please pray that one day even I may, the same Ramananda Rai or even Raghunath Das Goswami, you know, used it to actually come closer to or to surrender to the mission of Lord Chaitanya. So, yeah, maybe it is a particular type of a disposition of mind and ability, some skill set, some gifts and it is doubted how Vasudev used it in Krishna s interest to protect Krishna, you know.
So, coming back to your question, whether Rupa Goswami was simple at heart or not? 100% because one quality of a devotee is his simplicity. The greatest truths are very simple, but it is our mind influenced by the false ego, which complicates the whole matter, you know. So, when dealing with the Lord, it is straightforward, it is very clear, but the tremendous gift they have been given, they use it to present to the world, which asks all kinds of complicated questions.
So, Jiva Goswami answers. So, somebody may ask this question, if you see all the Sandarbhas, all just like Lord Krishna designed 84 lakh species, taking into consideration all the 84 lakh different type of desires from Krishna, pleasing Krishna. So, these powerful personalities, knowing the different type of evolution of consciousness and the complication of the ego, typical, what all questions may come, they have answered that, they have dealt with it, you know, but that does not mean that because of those things, they were not simple in their lifestyle, in their dealings, in their interactions, it was so straightforward.
Actually, in simplicity, Prabhupada translates as also in, I think in the Gita, two places, in the 13th chapter and also in the 16th chapter, Divine Qualities and 13th chapter, the Items of Knowledge. There he talks about Arjavam as simplicity and being straightforward. Okay.
Straightforward. So, if straightforward works, they are straightforward, but they follow Krishna. With Sudama he was so simple and straightforward, with Kolavacha he was straightforward, with devotees he is straightforward, but when people try to manipulate them, Krishna is reciprocates in the same way.
He has the last laugh ultimately, like Vamandeva. So, now if I understand right, what we are talking about is, there is, one is simplicity of heart or purpose, which we can put it more together and second, we could call it simplicity of service. So, the service might be complicated, which a person might do, but, and for the complicated service, so when you talk about innate disposition, which a person might have.
So, some people might not have that disposition for doing a complicated service. It could, by disposition we could either refer to nature or we could refer to ability, we could refer to training, whatever. So, they don’t have that.
So, Kolavacha either would fall in that area, where his service was not complicated. Whereas, say, Jiva Goswami or Ramanandaraya, their service was quite challenging and complicated. At least Jiva Goswami is answering philosophical questions or we could say Ramanandaraya was early administering a kingdom.
So, they were complicated services. So, can we differentiate between these two things, simplicity of heart and simplicity of, say, engagement or service? And then beyond, I mean, related to the second would be the third, like, say, simplicity of living. We have the example of Pundrik Vidyanidhi, who was living quite opulently, but still he was devoted.
So, simplicity of service and simplicity of living may be related, because sometimes for a, for a important service, one may need a particular way of living. Like, Yudhishthira Maharaj lived in opulence, because he was a king. So, but that doesn’t mean the Pandavas were not, they were not simple.
Yeah, I think that’s very simple. So, whatever the service requires, do the needful. And, and also I see, if a person is, like Giriraj Maharaj, you know, when Mr. Nair tried to deal with him and he, Giriraj Maharaj, I am reading that book right now, you know.
So, Giriraj Maharaj says, I didn’t understand, was he friendly to us, was he inimical to us, was he exploiting us? I had no understanding, because he was presenting different facets. So, that is the time when Prabhupada called Karandhar, he called Tamal Krishna, three people he called. And one day he sent back.
He said, no you are not needed, you can go back to Kolkata, but these two can stay here. And eventually Tamal Krishna Maharaj and Shamsundar Prabhu worked out and they thought that, in fact, they went a little extra. They said this project is not worth, so they actually cancelled the, yeah, Prabhupada was really angry.
They thought that, you know, Prabhupada was a little old and he was becoming a little stubborn, you know, that nahi, I want this land. And that’s why they said, no, better to cancel this. It’s really not worth, it’s too far away, rat infested place.
So, somewhere that over smartness caused a little extra. But they were able to detect that, no, this person is trying to play around. So, in that context Prabhupada said that, no, very sincere and Giriraj Maharaj writes there, I knew I am not into this management kind of a thing, but because it has been given to me, I will do my best.
If still Prabhupada wants me to be here, he knows best. If there is a better person, he would probably send, you know, and so he continued on and did all these apparently complicated things of different type of services, especially different types of people, handling different type of people, especially he speaks about Narnara and Prabhu. So, he said it’s very tough for me.
At the same time, so many other kind of things were coming up, which was never the case. He would, you know, chant and dance and preach and do worship. This was very simple.
But this was becoming very complicated. But he was trying to do his best and still Prabhupada trusted him and wanted him there. So, probably the authorities know better.
Many a times, the authorities can clearly see what is the capacity of this person and may engage. But still, in spite of knowing the capacity, still if they engage, that means probably that’s the need of the hour, you know, the best possible thing. So, we do it nevertheless and probably whatever is necessary, Krishna will give the good intelligence and the strength.
Yes. So, it’s good. And what he said is simplest, simplicity means simply do the service that we are asked to do.
And sometimes we may have certain abilities or the disposition for doing that service, sometimes we may not have, but still we continue. Now, going back to Mr. N, he was basically, we could say the opposite of simplicity is duplicity. And now, duplicity is something which is not so easy to detect.
So, at the same time, while dealing with duplicitous people like Krishna also does that, Shatho Shatyam. Now, when we live in a duplicitous world, or at least we interact with people who may be duplicitous, we don’t want to assume that, but sometimes some people are. So, there is a certain amount of, we could say diplomacy that is required.
So, if you can have a pendulum like that, simplicity is one extreme, we could say, not necessarily extreme in an undesirable sense, but just with respect to dealing with situations. One extreme is simplicity, the other extreme is duplicity. So, if a person is too simple and they’re meeting a duplicitous person, the simple person might be taken for a ride.
So, for functioning in the world, we could say in the middle is something like diplomacy. So, like Sanatana Goswami, when he was for no reason arrested by Nawab Hussain Shah and put in jail. Now, he realized that if he has to get out, he has to have some strategy.
And then he didn’t say that I’m going to Varanasi to see Lord Chaitanya. He said, I’m going to Mecca. And that’s how, I mean, that was not enough.
Then he offered some money to the jail and the jailer allowed him to go. So then again, for the service of the Lord, if a devotee needs to be diplomatic, so simplicity is a virtue. But again, simplicity is all virtues we can say are ultimately meant to help us serve the Lord.
So, if simplicity doesn’t help us to serve the Lord, then a certain amount of diplomacy may also be adopted as necessary for the service of the Lord. What do you think about this? When Vidura, in one sense, cheats Sanjaya and leaves along with Dhritarashtra and Gandhari, Prabhupada writes an amazing statement, great men cheat for a great cause. So, unless you are a great man and your cause is great, better we stay forward.
In this regard, one time Adikesha Prabhu, our Godbrother, asked Radhanath Swami Maharaj a very nice question. He said, we hear of such powerful book distributors in the past, but many of them we hardly hear afterwards or not visible in the scene right now so much. So, he was asking, how do you understand because book distribution is such a transcendental devotional service.
So, how do we understand that? So, Maharaj Radhanath Swami made a statement, he said devotional service is transcendental but we are not. And he was expressing how the devotees would go out and start, because Prabhupada had made one statement by hook or crook, sell my book. So, they had just taken one, that particular statement and would do apparently a lie to somehow push the book, say anything, do anything or get anything done to get the book done.
And it was good. Okay, they were protected because their cause was apparently spiritual and therefore, probably that’s why Krishna protected them, whatever it is. But they saw that by doing it, they were very quickly able to get what they wanted.
So, that got into them. Then when they came to the temple and when they wanted to get things done quickly, they started using the same technique with the devotees. It became their second nature.
That caused confusion, that caused so much of loss of faith and eventually, one of the factors, may not be the main factor, but one of the factors. So, yes, essentially devotee’s heart is Saralata. But if, like Chanakya says, if the fellow in front is like that, then you will have to, you know, bolena, seedi ungli se ghee nahi nikalti maharaj, tedi ungli, you have to, if you want to take out ghee, you have to bend your finger.
So, like that, actually a devotee from within is very simple and straightforward. That’s the nature of devotional service. Devotional service is very pure, straightforward and clear.
The dynamics are very clear. But if they are gifted with a particular disposition, skill sets, naturally, because of some, whatever their past karma or whatever, they can use it when faced with this complicated nature of this world externally, while remaining simple internally. You know, so Prabhupada, do you think Prabhupada was not simple? He was height of simplicity.
He was so straightforward when preaching, he was so straightforward in many times. But with Mr. N, he was very, like when they went, when N came along with a yogi or a guru to Hyderabad to meet Swami Krishna Maharaj. So, they had a good lunch in one person’s house, big rich man’s house, the place where they were staying.
And then after that, Prabhupada yawned and he said, I think it was a very good lunch, we should take rest. And immediately that yogi said, ya ya ya, Swamiji looks like you are very tired, you should take rest. And they went and both of them took rest and Prabhupada came inside and told Tamal Krishna Maharaj, he said, when a person says, they must be sleeping, now you wake Nair and bring him here.
And they dealt with the whole thing, wrote down everything. So now Prabhupada, when he saw the person in front, it’s like faced with Kamsa, do you think Vasudev was so simple at heart? Simplicity is the nature of devotion service. But he saw that with this guy, I can’t do it.
Now there are some people who may be too naive, very simple at heart and by nature also. So they, many a times, it’s amazing, many a times, I have seen devotees who are apparently so simple, but because they know scripture and because they are alert, they know that this person is probably cheating and all that, but they could still be the way they are, you know, and understand and appreciate and probably understand that this person is trying to cheat and they do whatever their best. They may not be able to deal with it effectively, but they will be able to understand, you know, okay, this is, because they see through the eye of scriptures, I can’t trust this person.
Of course, sometimes in the smartest people I have seen being fooled on the part of the moment because they are not alert. I am talking about just small incidents, but as a particular service, important service of doing some kind of, you know, elite preaching, you have, those who have that kind of a skill set are better equipped, disposition are better equipped, because for them it is born and raised in a particular situation where they have been dealing with those kind of things, easy for them. Also Krishna may empower them at that time because of the service of their sincerity.
If they really want to, Krishna may empower, what’s difficult for him. This is my, at least is my feeling. Just like as somebody said, some are born leaders, some are made leaders, some are pushed into leadership.
Oh, okay. Right. So similarly, some are born diplomats, some are made diplomats after training, some are circumstantially pushed into such a situation.
They try to do their best. Okay. So you are saying that even if somebody is naive and because they are devoted, so Krishna will give them some kind of sense.
So they may also still be protected, but still in a broader sense. Many a times, and many a times, many a times by maintaining their simplicity, many a times they have transformed the other person and many a times they have been cheated also. Okay, let’s do it.
That simplicity has many a times transformed the person in front. While if they are hardcore and very focused, then they could take advantage of it and that has also happened. I have seen that.
Yeah. That has also happened. But you can’t do it with a seasoned devotee who is like a strong diplomat like Raghunath Asghar Swami Chola Prabhupada.
So in a sense, if somebody is taking up responsible services, then a particular set of abilities is suited. So there is sincerity and then there is ability or competence, we could say. So lack of competence, the two are separate things and the two may not be replaceable.
They may not be interchangeable. So of course, we can say sincerity is more important than ability. So are we more or less equating sincerity and simplicity over here in terms of the essential import? In one sense, yes, because sincerity means transparency.
No matter what is inside is straightforward. Okay. If we take in that respect, I think who was that somebody told me the word sincere sincere comes from Sincere, I think Satchinandan Malar mentioned it.
Satchinandan Malar, right? Do you remember what exactly he told us? Some cracks in the marble or something? Yeah, I am just thinking. Something he had told. Transparent or something like that.
Something to that effect. I don’t remember right now. So in that sense, you know, sincerity is what is within is without, in that sense straightforward.
Yeah. So that could be a quality of a devotee. Okay.
That’s an age. Out of the 26 qualities, even one of them. However, each one has just like there is a Brahmana Vaishnava, there is Kshatriya Vaishnava, Vaishya, Shudra, Brahmacharya, whatever, you know, like Bhaktisiddhan Saraswati Thakur enlists 10 kinds of Brahmanas with scriptural codes.
Oh, okay. 10 kinds of Brahmanas would mean. So are you saying they are all having different levels of simplicity or something like that? In terms of different gradations he makes, you know, like when we say Brahmanas were leaders of society in terms of guiding the kings, not all can guide.
Some are very simple people, but dramatical. Some are highly intellectual, probably like Chanakya or you know all this. Powerful Brahmanas who are also, you know, advisors to the king, very pure hearted Brahminical nature people who are guides.
So even there, there are different levels. Just because I have a, you know, I am a Brahmana, that doesn’t mean that all of them have the same skill set. But one aspect of Brahminical, Shamaudhama, Tapas, Shavacham, Shantir, Arjavam.
That Arjavam should be there. But the same Arjavam, but if he is a gifted person, he is able to detect. Personally, Chanakya, his lifestyle, his living, everything was simple.
But he was able to detect what the enemy could think 10 times, you know, like a chess, playing chess. 10 steps ahead he could think and, you know, chart out a plan and guide the king for a purpose, very focused purpose. So I am just thinking aloud with you.
Yeah, I think this is quite a discovery, you know, in some ways. So this, that means when you talk about these different kinds of Brahmanas also. So we could say even in art, in today’s world, we see that not just in the devotee community, in the outside world also, we see there are people who are in the mode of goodness, they’re intellectuals, who might be reflective about deeper things.
And they also are, they also spread over a spectrum. So basically, Bhakti, we could say it means that we whatever we have been using Krishna’s service. And so going back to that point of sincerity and ability, in we quit, at least temporarily we quit sincerity and simplicity.
So if somebody has a particular responsible service, then it is better if they have the ability to do that service. Also, then that can be done more effectively. And those who may not have that ability, then sometimes they will be thrust in that situation where they have to do that service.
And then they do it. But in general, if we consider Varanashram, it will also mean that there is, there is engagement according to one’s, one’s ability. So that would apply also to, apply also to this kind of engagements also.
Isn’t it? Just like water finds its own level. Similarly, similarly, every individual, if given a facility, and if given proper respect, and the choice, and security, would naturally like to do what he likes to do. But today, everyone is trying to do something else.
Because some, some kind of services have no respect. They have no security. Therefore, forced to, or out of pressure for the society, what will society think about this service? Probably everyone is running for one particular type of a thing.
But otherwise, if given that space, if given that assurance, that whatever you do is appreciated, recognized, and respected, which is true Varanashram, naturally they would go to do that. But still why Paradharma they do? Because this particular service what they are inclined to has probably no recognition, no appreciation, no security, that cannot give security. Therefore, everyone looks for something else.
But in true Varanashram, there was, there was this, their contribution was acknowledged. They were respected for what they were, what they are, who they are, and what they were doing to the society. And they had, you know, service was not only appreciated, but rewarded in such a way that they were able to maintain themselves.
Therefore, the best art came up during the king’s time. If you see during the time of these great kings, the art and architecture came up because they were given that facility. You don’t worry about your family.
You don’t worry about their security. We will provide everything. You just build this.
So, they focused their, whatever their quality and perfected it practically. So, therefore, everything evolved and there was this security, appreciation, and respect. Yes.
So, in today’s world, if we see, because we have an institution to run at one level, an institution to some extent requires some tangible goal, some amount of quantification. So, then that creates a functional hierarchy that in terms of quantified goals, who can, who can meet those goals more, who can’t meet those goals that much. Say in terms of book distribution, who can distribute how many books, who can, who may not distribute that many books.
Now, from, at one level, this is good because people are being engaged, people are being inspired, but I think the challenge would come when, when what is like a functional necessity becomes almost a person’s defining identity. Their self-worth, their, they feel that their self-worth is determined by how many books they can distribute. Then that’s the, what will it, you feel it will lead to insecurity if I can’t do it or I say, I’m going to push myself to do it.
So, this is, like Bakhtisaraj Thakur said that it is a necessary evil institution at one level. So, if a particular devotee is good at a particular service, but that is not so much valued, then what, what would you recommend for such a person to do? Because I, I did not hear that part, Bakhtisaraj Thakur and it got cut off. So, Bakhtisaraj Thakur said that, that institution is a necessary evil at one level.
And so, sometimes quantification is necessary for a functional purpose in an institution. But the problem comes when what is a functional necessity becomes a personal identity or it becomes a source of one’s self-worth. If somebody does this much, they have this much value.
If they can’t do this much, it’s not so much value. So, both individually, if a devotee is in such a situation, you know, what do you think they can do to be able to deal with this when they’re doing some service, which is not being valued or appreciated? Is there something that they can do to change the ethos or is something they can do to adapt themselves? Actually, in the devotee care seminars, there are 21 reasons for lack of devotee care. And one of them is short-sightedness on part of the leadership in terms of immediate benefit rather than the long-term sustainability.
So, naturally, the resources situational, you know, situation where you are forced to kind of do that. So, if it’s an emergency, it’s one thing. But if that emergency becomes a permanent thing, you know, then paradharmo bhayavah, it creates havoc.
It creates so much of unnecessary competition and vying for each other for that position. And so, it’s so much necessary that this kind of training be given to identify and engage, to identify a particular person’s inclinations where they can be happily serving and for a long time happily serving. And you’re happy when you are serving according to your nature.
You know, you are naturally inclined to a particular thing. And the proof of that is you don’t feel tired. In fact, physically, you feel exhausted, but internally you are enthused.
Then you know that this is where you actually, you know, in the long term, I’m not talking about, you know, what is liking in terms of superficial level of activities, but a foundational, sustainable in the long term. You know, so when that is facilitated by proper observation, by giving the space, helping them also to identify and some kind of a training, then wherever you are, you are actually, you know, like contributing also the best. And you’re not feeling it’s an effort because it’s a very natural thing for you.
You are in your elements. That place would be burnt out, but not of that person because that’s what is, that’s his sense gratification basically. So you could say dharmic sense gratification or you could say they are satisfying Krishna’s own senses also within that scope.
Yeah. Sense satisfaction, not gratification. Oh yeah.
Sense satisfaction. Yes, that’s true. So this is a very important point for you that many ways, because we are in a society where we have targets and goals, comparison is unavoidable.
But when that comparison becomes like a default mentality or if a person starts feeling insecure because of that, then it is damaging. I think it has become worse in the age of social media now, because even when devotees say, make a video or do something, often we rate a video based on how many views they’re having, which is one way of looking at it. So at one level, if a devotee’s videos get a lot of views and devotees are able to reach a lot of people, that’s wonderful.
But that alone is not, shouldn’t become the rating of a person’s thinking of how much my preaching is of value or how much even my existence is of value. So then it becomes a, then it leads to a lot of insecurity. So you are saying that if there is the environment created by the leader of the institution, then such devotees will not get, then devotees won’t get such feelings of insecurity.
Is that what you are saying? Yes, yes, yes. Because these things are very superficial assessment of a person’s contribution. You can manipulate that or you try to speak, that’s one thing.
But then the substance of what a devotee is made up of, if you see Prabhupada, he encouraged every person at all level, some simple kind of a homemaker, a lady at home taking care of children to somebody who is running a whole project or practically leading the whole country, he may have given more time and guidance okay, but to him he valued everyone. Now Prabhupada told Tamal Krishna Maharaj, there is a statement he made where he said, just like Lord Ram was stating Hanuman and the squirrel with equal, he quotes that. He said, as a leader you should make sure that in your jurisdiction who is there, everyone should be engaged according to their nature and appreciated also, feel appreciated.
He told something like this to even Giriraj Maharaj. He said, Nar Narayan is very energetic, you engage him in that gardening and give him all the facility. Only when it became a little intense of other issues, then he was asked to go back to the US.
Otherwise, he said, no, no, you have to tolerate and you have to take everyone together. So interestingly, today is Pushyabhishek and His Holiness Radhanath Maharaj, anytime we do this flower petals plucking, this is so hope giving, you know, in his talks he always mentions that here are industrialists, here are simple villagers, there are drivers and there are simple housewives and everyone, everyone is doing something, plucking petals from the flowers. Anyone can do.
So Krishna, he sees the result. So it is difficult in this day and age when, you know, things are so much in demand to perform or perish. But it requires that we have to create an environment.
Probably, I am a personal example of that. In any other environment probably I would not have stayed. I have survived because I was accepted for what I was and tolerated for what I was and patiently they gave me that space to just be what I am and do whatever I can and that was appreciated.
Whatever you are doing is not small. Otherwise probably I don’t know. Whatever you are doing is by no means small, especially your Journey of Self-Discovery course.
It has not just attracted thousands of people in Mumbai but all over the world it is an invaluable resource. But I appreciate your point. I talk with several devotees, like senior Prabhupada disciples who were in the early time Brahmacharis and then they left and many of them became academy scholars.
So what they told me is that they saw no growth prospect for themselves within the ashram. So in a sense they wanted to do more service for Krishna but there was no scope for them. So then they felt that whatever abilities I have, I can contribute more or better elsewhere.
So actually if somebody is given space then as they discover their ability in the long run, they might be able to do some service which is far bigger than what we might be engaging them in right now. So in that sense, it’s not a loss. What you earlier said about short-sightedness in terms of looking at immediates.
Yeah, yeah. So also it may be in a kind of an ashram setup. It was nicely put by one devotee in an ashram setup, especially in a temple, Brahmachari ashram setup.
He said there are some things you like to do. There are some things you have to do and there are some things you are asked to do. What you like to do inspires you.
What you have to do purifies you. And what you are asked to do is a way of expressing our gratitude for staying in the place. So it should be balanced.
It should be balanced. So then there is win-win to the community you are providing and the community is also providing for that space. Yeah.
So that balance needs to be there amongst these three. What you have to do, what you have to do is like your basic sadhana visibility expected to stay in the community and what you are asked to do is the need of the temple or need of the community at a particular time. Then you have to drop Sarvdharman Pariteja.
But it’s an emergency. There’s a need of the hour. And then what you like to do is something that if there is a time, naturally my heart goes there.
I can go on doing it for hours and not feel tired. So that kind of needs to be balanced. That’s what I feel.
Yes. And even for devotees who are not necessarily in the ashram setting, if they find a service which they also like to do, then that becomes something which they can keep doing throughout their life. Otherwise, somebody has to tell them to run the service and completed it.
So in a sense, some amount of inspiration naturally comes if it’s in harmony with our nature. And now with our movement becoming very at one level quite large. So to some extent, often it’s the onus falls on the individual to find out what is it that I can do.
Devamrith Maharaj in one of his lectures says that you should take responsibility for your spiritual life. If you are in a career, you would think how you would grow in your career. So you should think not how you grow, but how you can contribute more, how you can become a better and better instrument for Guru and Krishna.
So I felt that in that sense, at one level obeying instructions is that what we have to do or asked to do, but taking responsibility to find out what we like to do, what we are good at. That is also an important part of bhakti because sometimes just emphasizing following instructions, it’s important, but that may deter people from taking initiative and then what they can contribute, that may be overlooked. Yeah, I can relate this where there isn’t a highly well-knit community of people who are there for each other and supporting and cultivating everyone.
So naturally at such a place, everyone has to fend for themselves. But if there is a family atmosphere, if there is a community with a strong leadership, where in the beginning we give and in the long run, they reciprocate. It is not what you are asked to do.
It may be told, but eventually you understand that’s the need. That’s the need, just like in India basically, now that is also disappearing. But parents do their best to the kids and after some time, they understand, the children understand that now they are grown old, they have needs.
It’s time for me to now reciprocate. That’s the need of the family right now. So like in a community also, now the community helped me grow.
Now the next level, what I have received now, time to give back now. So that comes automatically in a responsible person who has received so much for what he is today or what they are today. You see, that should come naturally, not artificially.
But if the same thing is imposed upon someone who hasn’t received anything, naturally you will feel, why should I do? I haven’t received anything. Who is this person to order me? I like this one particular aspect of the Vedic culture. You know, I mean, now Vedic culture means too many things for too many people.
But I will just say in the scriptures, when it talks about all this Vanashram and many other things, two examples I will give. Because when you emphasize one, it becomes topsy-turvy. Like for example, everyone is told, give charity to the Brahmanas.
Give charity to the Brahmanas. Brahmanas, Brahmanas. While the Brahmanas are told that even one pie of that charity, if you use it for your unnecessary, unwanted sense gratification.
These people are told that if you don’t give charity to the Brahmanas, you will go to hell. And the Brahmanas are told, if you take unwanted sense gratification, then you will go to darker hell. The whole society is told, respect Atithi Devo Bhava, respect guests.
But the guests are told, don’t take undue advantage of the hospitality. Just like Arjuna was asked, when Yudhishthira sees him, did you stay long in Dwaraka and did they disrespect you? So, there is a balance. While the leaders are told that do the best you can, give them that facility, give them that protection, give them that security, give them that appreciation.
Others are told not to ask for it. Tolerate whatever the situation, be grateful for whatever comes. At least some society is there.
So, if each starts claiming what they are expecting, there are rights and there are duties. Each one should focus on their duty rather than demanding their rights. The right is to be considered by the others and the duty should be considered by ourselves.
Today it’s happened the other way round. We are reminding everyone of our rights and others are reminding of our duties. Beautiful.
So, if everybody is concerned about their duties, then they will protect each other’s rights. But it becomes a problem. Though it’s of course easy to say, but very difficult to put back.
But that’s what makes it so sweet. The exchange is so sweet and loving. True.
Yes. So, it’s like I think Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that first level servant is one who understands the mind and addresses the need. So, you could say that that can apply in various relationships also.
That if there is, as you said, if there is a need, do it without asking. That’s my duty. And for the other person, they have a need, we provide it even without necessarily they needing to ask us about it.
Yeah. You have been now in the movement for almost 40 years. So, have you seen evolution in the ethos? Because say in the early years, 1960s, 1970s, we didn’t have that much people itself.
So, everybody had to do what was necessary. But do you see an evolution? Like you said, you gave your own example. But apart from your example here, but in other places also in our movement, wherever you have traveled and observed, how do you see this right now? Yeah, no, see, there is one thing is what the ideal expectations are.
And truly, it takes a lot to create that kind of an environment. And it’s not easy. It’s not easy.
That’s true. And therefore, it’s like, you know, water flowing downstream, the nature is to go down, the whole system goes down. Even to maintain it at its level, the kind of energy, the kind of sacrifice, the kind of extending oneself, all that is necessary is not possible for everyone.
Not possible for everyone. And so therefore, at least it must be understood and encouraged. And, but I’m seeing without a very strong, inspiring, and sustained leadership, it’s very difficult to do that.
Very difficult to do that. So, in one sense, you’re right, what you’re saying is true. That needs to be at least educated and as far as possible, you know, try to be created, that kind of a situation to be created.
Otherwise, already I can see that things can go down if it is not maintained. And it’s not easy. I was just thinking, Prabhupada single-handedly maintained.
Later he had his own GBC who was still finding it difficult to even maintain what was created. It’s easily said than done. But the principles remain the same.
So, as close to the ideal that we can create that we need to, you know, try to create. This is how I understand. This is how I see.
Yes. So, I think every project based on their particular situation will have a particular priority. And I think that is, as you said, depends on the mood of the leader and other things.
And overall devotees also at an individual level, it seems they gravitate toward some place where they get nourishment. Nowadays, especially with the internet connecting the world so much, that can, of course, lead to distraction and other things. But I can also, even if one doesn’t get nourishment where one is physically, one can seek nourishment elsewhere also.
In that sense, the channels also have opened up more. So, we could say that simplicity is a virtue, but preserving simplicity is not simple. Or preserving an environment where people can have, people can live simply is not necessarily simple.
It requires effort. Yeah. So, listening a couple of questions toward the end.
Now, when we talk about simplicity in, say, in an environment like today’s. So, should a devotee, so I should consciously strive to cultivate simplicity or just focus on doing service and then simplicity will naturally develop from that. Like we say, asyasti bhaktir bhagavatyakinchana, that one who is devoted, all virtues come up.
So, should a devotee try to develop the virtue or we should just try to try to serve, try to do service? This question was asked to me, which comes first? You know, devotion comes first or the qualities come first or we should develop the qualities and then devotion. So, somehow that inspiration came to me. I had a, they had put a big garland on me of flowers.
So, I picked up the garland and I showed them, I asked them, which is important, the flowers or the thread? The thread was not visible. Okay. But the flowers were held by that.
So, I asked everyone, which is important? Please tell me. So, if you say thread, then next time I will put only the thread on your neck, not the flower garland. And if you say flowers, I’ll give you flowers, you try to put it into a neck, put it into a garland.
So, the point is, first you have to probably in the beginning gather these flowers, which are qualities as far as possible, try to gather them. But if you want to hold them, then you need to, only devotional service can hold them. You know, otherwise devotion is a thread, which holds all these qualities and takes these qualities to its ultimate purpose for what that quality is meant for.
To please Krishna, to come closer to Krishna, to love Krishna, to serve Krishna. Otherwise, what is the use of simplicity? You can be proud of your simplicity and make your life complex. Proud of, that’s a memorable thought.
Because we are proud of everything, so we are proud of our simplicity, that pride makes our life complex. That’s insightful. Also, I just, I like this metaphor very much of garland.
That’s something similar to Sutra, even the Bhagavad Gita also, that we cannot really appreciate Krishna immediately. So, we look at the beautiful manifestations in the world and then we think, what is sustaining it? What is holding it together? So, then that’s how we think of Krishna. I think Prabhupada also says that all knowledge comes from Krishna, but all knowledge doesn’t begin from Krishna.
Our knowledge begins from the things in this world. So, and then we move toward Krishna. So, something similar I would say that not everybody can have devotion immediately and the world also cannot appreciate devotion immediately.
So, when there are virtues, good qualities, that’s what is visible. That’s what is attractive. And then the underlying devotion will be appreciated.
So, in that sense, we, devotion is like the invisible thread and it’s vital. Without it, nothing can be sustained. But for it to, like for the garland to be offered, the thread alone is not enough.
The flowers also have to be there. So, both are required. And I think Krishna also in the 12th chapter when he talks about qualities, he talks about those who are the devotees are dear to him.
He essentially talks about devotees with virtues. Those devotees who don’t disturb others, who are not disturbed by others, such devotees are dear to me. So, in that sense, Krishna doesn’t separate the virtues from devotees.
In fact, virtuous devotion is pleasing to Krishna. And when we talk about, say, simplicity as opposed to duplicity. Now, duplicity in the case of Kamsa would be something which is, like in demons, it’s very easy to understand.
But in our case, say, how would we differentiate between duplicity and diplomacy? Like you earlier said, unless you are a great soul or working for a great cause, better be straightforward. So, that is a very valid principle. But there are situations when one may need to be diplomatic.
So, is there some guidelines about whether one is being diplomatic or duplicitous? How can one differentiate? There is one beautiful verse in the Gita, 5.7. So, there he, there Prabhupada makes a very interesting point because a person in Krishna consciousness is a servant of all. Everyone is satisfied with him. Because everyone is satisfied with him, his consciousness is pure.
Because his consciousness is pure, his mind is at peace. Because his mind is peaceful, his senses are controlled. And because his senses are controlled, he can never be offensive to anyone.
So, if to serve the opposite person, if the best way is to become diplomatic, I will try to be diplomatic. I will tell a white lie if need be. That’s not a lie because for the absolute truth, if I am telling a lie, it’s a part of that whole thing, part of that package deal.
So, that is understandable. That’s understandable. But when it is for my interest that I twist the truth or play around, then it is hypocrisy because you are trying to say that you are a servant, you are a well-wisher.
But it is like Putana. Putana came as a Brahmani wanting to bless and you know, give affection to the child. But actually her interest was to kill and for her own purpose, drink the blood.
Asivat. That’s why Shudra Goswami uses that word. It’s like a sword in a very nice case.
But that is duplicity. But sometimes Prabhupada did something for that person’s benefit, long term benefit. So, he was trying to serve the best way he could serve in a way that Krishna is pleased.
Not to please the other person, not to please me, but it is to please Krishna. If this is the best way I can please Krishna, I will do. Krishna told Yudhishthira, tell a lie.
You know, if that’s what it takes to establish dharma, whether it is Bhima, whether it is…Pandavas broke the rules, Kauravas also broke the rules. Kauravas followed the rules when it was benefiting them, they broke the rules when it was benefiting them. But Pandavas followed the rules for pleasure of Krishna and broke the rules for the pleasure of Krishna.
So, it’s not about being duplicitous, but for whose sake, for whose satisfaction, on whose order. If that is done, then that duplicity is glorious. It’s like losing a battle to win the war.
I never thought of a metaphor like this over here. So, in terms of ethical behavior, you could say that some behavior may be considered unethical. So, that’s like losing a battle.
But the ultimate purpose of all ethical behavior is to ultimately connect the person with Krishna or take them closer to Krishna. That is Krishna’s cause. That is the war.
That’s quite, I never thought of that. Actually, in the book, Standard, you know, B.T.G founder, the early B.T.G magazine was put in a big, thick for founder, for the magazine given. So, in that Prabhupada has written an article called Standard Morality.
Standard Morality. And there he begins the essay by telling morality is the standard of activity by which the supreme authority is satisfied. So, morality not to be undermined at all that means.
Yeah, morality is the standard of activity by which the supreme authority is satisfied. So, for the sake of absolute truth, if you have to tell a lie, that’s not a lie. That lie is a part of the absolute truth.
But even if you are telling the truth, but if it is a part of a big lie, then even the truth is a lie. And it’s like honesty among thieves. Oh, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Yes, I think this is a very, very conclusive note to conclude, I would say that in the sense ultimately everything is for the pleasure of the Lord, for the service of the Lord. So, should I try to summarize through and then you can speak some concluding words if you like. Just, ok, ok.
I just tell in this regard that our greatest acharyas were even in their most apparently complicated and duplicitous behavior, they were very simple and straightforward. They did whatever it was necessary to please Krishna. That was a simple program just to please Krishna.
So, that is the standard. Then from that perspective, simplicity is not complicated. Absolutely.
Very simple. To please Krishna, I will do whatever is necessary. I think the complex thing might be to know what will please Krishna in a particular situation.
So, Arjuna, when he had to decide what to do with Ashwathama, he wanted to please Krishna, but he had to think what do I do in this situation. So, he had to choose different options. But yeah, that’s true.
Krishna gives dharami buddhi yogam tam. So, even Prabhupada when, I think in London it happened, he had to get the deities. Prabhupada avoided all the complications.
They just took the deities. Do you want to say, he just abducted Krishna, Ladhaneshwar. But that was for Krishna’s pleasure.
So, I will try to summarize again and if you have any further comment, we can add. So, we talked about the topic of simplicity and then I talked about say the Nanda Maharaj example. So, you said that first there is an innate nature and some people will actually be simple and they feel reassured that there is space for them also.
Like say Kolavichar Sridhar’s example and then we talked about Rupa Goswami was not simple, but you could say his services are complicated. Devotees are always simple in the heart, but if they are taking up complex services, then at that time having the corresponding abilities is helpful. Now, if somebody doesn’t have those abilities, like say Giriraj Maharaj said that this was not my nature so much, but then if, but Prabhupada trusted him, Prabhupada wanted him, then we do the service as a duty.
So, simplicity we talked about, we could say simplicity in terms of the service we are doing or simplicity in terms of the heart. So, devotees, heart is always very simple in terms of they just want to please Krishna. And in that sense, the external expression would be simply do whatever is required to please Krishna.
And if, like you gave the example, Giriraj Goswami answers all complicated questions of various philosophers. So, the philosophical presentation might be quite intricate and complicated, but the purpose is simple. And then we discussed the example of Ramanandaray and Raghunatha Goswami.
Because they had the background, so they could do particular services for the Lord which others could not do. And they did that well. So, then we discussed our sincerity, sincerity and simplicity in this context are more or less similar.
And then a devotee when they are externally not simple. So, I think one is simplicity of the heart, second is simplicity when they are doing complex services. Then at that time, it is not so much lacking simplicity as you could say exhibiting reciprocity like Krishna.
If somebody is duplicitous, then they will deal with them appropriately. So, like Vasudeva dealt with Kamsa. And so that is basically, like Shatoshat and Charnakya Pandita also says.
And that is not lacking in simplicity, but that is making sure that the service of Krishna is done. And if somebody is naive, then also Krishna might guide them from within. Something is fishy over here because of their sincerity.
Or sometimes someone might be misled. We discussed Giriraj Maharaj and Tamal Krishna Maharaj and others. We also mentioned the problem that sometimes some people are very over smart.
And then we discussed about simplicity and ability. If both are there, services work best. And so, when a devotee gives up simplicity externally for diplomacy, that has to be done very carefully.
So, only when somebody is a great soul and a particular great cause, that’s when it’s best. And then we talked about accommodating devotees who are simple and accommodating devotees of different nature. So, you said it requires strong, inspiring and sustained leadership to be able to actually do that.
Constantly things keep going down. So, in devotee care, one of the reasons why devotees may feel uncared for and may leave is because they don’t find a space for themselves. And then we talked about three things.
Now, things we like to do, they inspire us. Things we need to, things we have to do, they purify us. And things we are asked to do, they express our gratitude.
So that things we are asked to do, if they are against our nature, then that should be an emergency. It shouldn’t be like a constant thing we have to do. And there’s this idea of rights and duties that if everybody is claiming their rights, that makes a distasteful atmosphere, but everybody is doing their duties, then the other’s rights are automatically taken care of.
And before that, I think you also mentioned about the question that you mentioned Adi Keshav asked Maharaj that question. And then in answer, he explained how there is essentially the principle that if some devotee who is doing complex services, that Bhagavad Gita sometimes went away, if they start, they don’t remember that this all this diplomacy is for a particular service and that diplomacy becomes their default nature, then that can alienate from the devotee community, that can cause loss of faith and that may even contribute to their going away from Krishna. So, it’s like diplomacy is a tool it has to be carefully used.
You could almost say it’s like Yukta Vairagya, which we use for Krishna service. And then you give this beautiful example of a garland for should devotees try to consciously develop humility or simplicity here. So, said that, yes, or virtues like that in general.
So, the virtues are like flowers and devotion like the thread. So, both come together, then it’s a sweet or proper offering. And then we talked about concluding that diplomacy, how do we avoid duplicity while being diplomatic? So, you said that ultimately, it’s like the Pandavas, they are pleasing Krishna.
So, if pleasing Krishna is the purpose, then it’s never duplicity, even if others may think like that. And the ultimate definition of simplicity is simply do whatever is required for pleasing Krishna and serving Krishna. Thank you.
Anything you want to add? I was reminded of a talk by Raghunath Swami Maharaj way back in 93 or something. He was saying about simple living, I thinking. So, though, of course, we are discussing more the internal attitude, but in terms of external living also, he made a very nice statement.
He said, use what you have and have what you need. And if you need more, just get what you need. And actually, it’s an illusion to think that the more you have, the less you need.
It’s a fact. The fact is, the more you have, the more you need. So, being satisfied with whatever the Lord has supplied, but never being satisfied with how much more we could serve Krishna, serve devotees, serve the mission.
I think that focus, these are the simple formulas of being very happy and blissful in Krishna consciousness. This is memorable ending, Rohan. Let’s repeat it.
So, you said that use what you have and have what you need. And if you have to do more, then get what you need. If you need more, get when the need is there, whatever you need.
Otherwise, if you just keep getting more, that’s true that if the more you have, then the need doesn’t decrease. In fact, the need increases. That’s and then he made a statement.
All you need is the holy name. Oh, that’s beautiful. All you need ultimately is the holy name.
I recently read somewhere that without raising consciousness, the problems of poverty are not removed, they are simply replaced by the problems of prosperity. So, something similar. I didn’t hear it.
Without raising consciousness, the problems of poverty can’t be removed, they will simply be replaced by the problems of prosperity. So, some of the problems will come up. The proof of that is Kola Vecha Sridhar.
All that he had was the holy name and nothing else was needed. Yeah, I want to say that his pot was something that even the most frustrated thief would not steal. So, the scriptures are also quite, you could say, describing some points.
Yes, this is a very tangible carry home point with a memorable message. Thank you very much for your association today, Ruhi. I hope that I can become a little less complicated in my mind and heart and imbibe some simplicity.
You are simply great. I hope I can come out of that illusion one day. Thank you very much.
Hare Krishna.