Sustainable Living and Rural Outreach – The Monk’s Podcast 96 with Sanat Kumar Prabhu

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna, Sanat Kumar. Welcome to the Monks Podcast. Hare Krishna.
Thank you so much for inviting me to speak. Since the time I met you several years ago and I heard about all that you are doing here. And then afterwards, when I travel abroad and devotees ask about what all is happening, especially with respect to the Govardhan Eco Village.
Even if devotees from all over the world come here, they primarily visit the eco village and see what the eco village. But not many know about the various activities that are happening with respect to rural development and rural outreach. And the awards that have been won themselves are quite impressive.
So I’ll share with mentioning some of the awards and then maybe you can tell us about how all this started and where it is going now. Is that OK? Yes, yes. So.
So probably the most celebrated award that we won was the United Nations Award. And from that’s something which is United Nations World Tourism Organisation Award for ecotourism as a catalyst for rural development. That is a 2017 Madrid.
And that I think in the whole world itself. And it created a sensation. And also in I was told even the Maharashtra government, they were stunned.
You know, which is this? What is this place? We don’t know about. But it is being attracting international attention. Yes.
And apart from that, there are several other awards. Actually, I have another document which has a dozen awards, which I’ll probably put in the information sheet of the podcast. But Indian Institutes of Architecture Award for Excellence for Eco Village Design, an International Green Apple Award for Best Environmental Practises, 2015 London.
Then Limca Book of Records for Organic Farming Techniques. Winner of Scotch Platinum Award for Water Conservation, 2013 Delhi. The winner of Asian Spirituality Leadership Award for Best Overall Sustainable Performance.
That is Dubai. And so and I and I also came to know that recently we have been awarded the Krushi Bhushan Award, which is the highest award in in this in the state of Maharashtra in the field of agriculture. So this is quite an unparalleled level of accomplishment and not just accomplishment, but recognition of the accomplishment by the world.
So can you share some background of how all this came about and what exactly are these awards given for? Yes, you see, as all these awards that we got it is one question of Prabhupada started. You see, Prabhupada founded ISKCON Society in 1965. And in 1960, he established Nirmala, that is farm community.
So right from the beginning of farm communities in his mind. Right. So whatever Prabhupada said, we are just like trying to fulfil that award.
And we can see how Prabhupada was so much visionary that by simply implementing few of the things which he said, we could attract the attention of all these people. 50 years back when there was not much talk about sustainability or ecology or environment, the science and all those things. That’s the time when Prabhupada was thinking about this.
Because Prabhupada knew very well the current society who is trying to just fulfil their material needs without caring for the nature. Ultimately, we will have a disastrous effect. And then now it’s like everywhere in international scene, we see people talk about ecology, environment, sustainability, and then non-toxic food and all those things.
Which Prabhupada could envisage almost 50 years back. So this is what I felt and under the leadership of His Holiness Radhanath Swami Maharaj. All the group of devotees here in Gopinath village.
About this point that you mentioned, sorry, Swamiji, about this point of Prabhupada being like an environmental visionary. Sometimes we focus a lot on Prabhupada’s spiritual teachings and this aspect of his farsightedness is overlooked. So what you said is I was reading recently a book about Indian spiritual leaders who went and pioneered Indian spirituality in the West.
They said that most of the spiritual leaders talked about, say, inner development, feel good. But hardly anyone else apart from Prabhupada talked about environmental matters so presciently. So, in a sense, we have focused a lot on the temple outreach and devotional festivals.
And of course, Prabhupada is a pioneer for Kirtan, but Prabhupada is a pioneer for sustainability and eco-friendly living. That is something which while we have done, we have made efforts for having farm communities. But that aspect of Srila Prabhupada, I feel sometimes it has not been adequately highlighted.
How visionary he was, what you said. I just wanted to second what you said. And I said that there are some eminent books on Indian spirituality in the West are also recognising it.
Thank you. Srila Prabhupada knew we are talking about giving more importance to the spirit, the spirit soul, and less importance to the bodily necessities. Working more on the soul platform and whatever is necessary for the bodily maintenance, we have to do it.
So, then people will ask like, how do I live according to this? So, if you see what was existing, existing was like every family, mostly it was like village based and all the villages were self-sufficient in themselves. So, all the requirements of the village were fulfilled within village itself. And that’s how like whatever happened in the world, the village economy was not disturbed.
But then today what has happened in this global economy scenario that if the oil prices go up, a small person in the village also gets affected because these prices shoot up. So, no matter what happened in the world, what kind of wars happened, still the villages could carry on their culture, carry on their spiritual pursuits and carry operation with the nature. But Prabhupada knew it very well that people are working for the things which they don’t need.
So, let’s say there is one circle we put and that we call as needs. Then you put a next circle around, you call it as comforts. Then you put another circle around it, you call it as luxuries.
Then you put another circle around it, you call that as the prestige. And then you add one more circle around it, it’s called greed. So, now as comforts are there, you can easily stay in cooperation with the nature without unnecessarily working hard for that.
To a certain extent, luxury may be possible. But then what does mean by prestige? Suppose you need one car, car is needed for transportation. But then people will have very costly cars for themselves.
They may have one BFW, then another Mercedes and other things. That means you just leave for the prestige and neighbour has got as many cars, so I should have additional ones. And then that means that point onwards, you start exploiting the mother nature.
And then you will have less time for the spiritual activities. And those who go greed is actually the root cause of all the diseases, which the Prabhupada knew it very well. What is this society that is based on the consumeristic model? Even we have seen in Bhagavatam also, in Bali Maharaja’s episode.
It was very clear when they said that anybody’s heart is not satisfied, no matter if you offer him all the gold, all the silver, all the jewels in the world, and still he will not be satisfied. That’s why you find Mahatma Gandhi also said, there is enough for everybody’s need for not one man’s greed. So this is what happens is like people and they start living for the greed in the life.
Then they start exploiting the mother nature. So this is what happened. Now discuss something about like how the civilisation is going away from the main focus, which should be doing it.
So we will explain about how the progress is measured in today’s world. The progress is measured in today’s world in the form of GDP. Just to understand.
So are you giving this as a background for this project or are you explaining the rationale for Prabhupada’s vision or both? The thing is, it’s a both that is needed to understand. Yes, please. Because if you want to live on the land, first you need to be convinced and you need to be deeply rooted into the Prabhupada’s understanding of the farm products.
Otherwise, a little bit difficult is here and there. And then you may lose the focus. So what we understand is the way today’s world is measuring the success.
It is such a defective way of measuring the success. Now, see, the God has given us nice grapes. And you eat those grapes and you will be very healthy.
But when there is a greed in the heart, what you do is you make wine from that. And then the more wine factories are there in the world or in that one particular nation, the GDP of that nation will increase. What happens is if the people consume more wine, then a lot of social problems that they have.
So because of the greed is there in the human heart is not satisfied with what God has provided. But we try to earn more and more thinking that the money will give me the wealth will give me happiness. So he will convert the good grapes into wine.
So is wine like a greater parameter in the GDP as compared to grapes? What I’m saying is, suppose if a nation is living very simple, then they don’t need these things. But if they’re going for more gross domestic products, then they will add these industries. So what people will think they have got more industries, the GDP is more.
So that is considered as the developed nation. And those who’s that is considered as underdeveloped nations. But this measurement of success itself is defective.
Because let’s say if there is an accident, the GDP will go up. Why? Because the medical insurance company, the hospital bills, all those things goes up. And then artificially you see that there is a growth in GDP.
But actually, that’s not the way the success is measured. So what happening is, is people are going after this illusory, definite success. And because of this, Prabhupada knew very well that if they do this, then they will be exploiting the resources, natural resources.
Because earth will provide for your needs, it will provide for your comforts. But if people start exploiting the mother nature, then you, this, the earthly resources are not sufficient. That’s why it is said like if people live by the standard of living of US, America, then you will need at least five earth planets.
Then all people in the world can live by the standard. I’ve heard about that. Yes, that is true.
So that’s what Prabhupada wanted. Going back to the GDP point estimate, so it’s very striking. So it’s like a moral measure.
It is just going to measure how much industries are there. But whether those industries are producing something good or whether they’re actually necessary, that doesn’t come into the, because it’s just a mathematical measure. So we need other parameters for a more holistic evaluation.
Some industries may be actually necessary, they may do something good also, but the GDP will not have a calibration for that. So I remember in Japan, I read something, there was a big conflict because a lot of people were dying because of smoking. And then the health industry was saying we should put some restriction on smoking.
But from the government’s point of view, the tobacco industry was providing income and the health industry was taking out income or taking money. So in a sense, they were getting money so they were not ready to put curbs on this. So yeah, it’s a very striking point that, so the GDP has no ethical element to it at all.
Or not even an ethical element, just the element of what is actually being produced that is not measured at all. It is just whether it is being produced or not. Very striking.
Thank you for sharing that. So usually what happens is people just go on consuming. The more nation consumes, it’s considered as a rich person.
But you don’t have that much sufficient natural resources. And then people are happy by consuming the resources. So suppose if any country has got a lot of, say, gambling units, casinos and all those kind of stuff, which like many developing countries are trying to establish in their countries.
But you all know the people who this kind, these are the addictions like the alcohol is addiction. This gambling is addictions. And then citizens, are they happy about these things? They’re not happy.
And then a lot of other social events also take place. So this is what exactly that today’s society is measuring success in the wrong parameters. And we should have proper parameters to measure the success.
So this is what like this thing is. It’s agriculture, we say. So food is a culture, but you will see most of the today’s world.
They are using the word agribusiness. So like many of the places in the world, the mother earth is considered as mother. In Vedic tradition, it’s a mother.
And mother will definitely provide for the children for the necessities. But if the children are using some destructive lifestyle, then it will be there. So let’s take likeness of proper was saying like if you have a farm communities, actually you will have a security.
So this I will explain replaced by the business. So if you see Indian society, say 60 years back, 60, 70 years back, mostly the villages, they produce the things the family needs, whatever the needs of the villagers there. And I’m very clear in 1971 and 72, there was a very heavy drought in India.
I still remember I was a child in the newspaper. All those pictures were there where the land is happy. Cotton was cash crop.
On the central part of Maharashtra, there was a cotton was there in coastal region in humid climate. So then what happened is like this is how the cash crop started coming into picture. So cash crop is like cotton is giving good price.
So let’s cultivate more and let us get more and more income. And that’s how the people started putting all sorts of them. They started getting hybrid seeds.
They started in GMC. The prosperity was measured in terms of the grains and the cows. So as people started getting into cash, then they started exploiting the mother nature.
And then what happened is like previously, all your needs were satisfied in the villages because like before we got this place, we were in down and near our farm was the river. So whenever we had to cross the river, we had to use boatman service. So we never used to pay like daily to him.
At the harvesting season, we would just give him one bag of jowar, the millets. That’s how like we used to pay to the different like the blacksmith, you pay him one grain of this thing. So all the trades that were required for supporting the agriculture, they did not ask for the cash.
They asked for the grains. So you hardly need any cash for that. And this was just 20, 30, 25 years ago, isn’t it? This is 25 years ago in some remote villages.
Still, the system is there. You don’t need cash much. You just need the grains to pay.
Now, we’ll share you one of the very striking example that I got during this Corona period. Yes, please. You see what happened as the Corona started.
See, initially, a few months was a little scary like that. We never imagined like the Bombay railways will be stopped and you’re not allowed to go out anywhere. People would go out, the police would beat them.
And all the reports were coming like so many people are affecting the Corona all over the world. The Corona is spreading. So one time the whole world, the world was locked down.
You can’t move. So then we calculated like how many devotees are staying on the Govardhanika village. So we said like there are 300 devotees.
So now I thought like 300 devotees are there. Now, I don’t know how long this lockdown will continue. Maybe it will continue like this for a year.
So then I called my agriculture department, I called our rural development department. And I told them like how much food grains we have. So then they calculated and then they said we have enough of food grains for one and a half years.
Even if this lockdown continues for all our 300 inmates. Our agriculture department means here the GEV itself? GEV agriculture, GEV itself. That means what we have produced here or what we have already stocked over here or both? Produced also.
And then some of the things we purchased it from our neighbouring farmers, rural development, teaching the organic farming techniques. Okay. So together.
So then I said one and a half years food grain stock we have. And plus like in one and a half years, there will be at least four seasons in which we can grow the food. So that means even if food we consume, we will keep growing it also.
So we don’t care what happens in the world. So we went on like first I thought maybe we should start rationing the things. But then I said there is no need to ration at all because one and a half year stock is there.
And plus like this rainy season will come and again the new fresh stock of rice we can grow. So then we sell our festivals as usual without any tension. So there in the food stocks, food grains and cows who will give you the milk.
Now those people who are staying in the cities, now those who lost the job. So they did not get the money. They don’t have money from where they will buy food grains.
So there is so much in anxiety. Those who were dependent on the cash economy. They lost the job or they lost listings.
So that’s the time I could see that how Prabhupada has given us such a beautiful project. And you could really experience the security and then you could easily go on with your spiritual practises. So this is what like I felt the genius of Prabhupada.
So in a way because of what you said about self-sufficiency, you in some ways experienced that self-sufficiency had been achieved even without any consciously striving for that. It’s in a sense you said you discovered it that you didn’t you had not thought in that direction, but you found it and you check that when the situation comes up. So just so the self-sufficiency, it was like a byproduct of living in this way, isn’t it? Yes, because what Prabhupada is trying to say by this farm projects is the real security will be with the food grains and the cows from the cow’s milk.
If you have that, you can live peacefully in this world. But now what you are doing is like you are trying to work in different professions and all that. And you are depending on the currencies and you are thinking that a lot of money.
I will be happy. But then what you have to understand is, is you need money for what? Say, if you want to buy a phone or TV or laptops or cars or these things, you need money. In that sense, without all those things, you still you can live without food grains.
You can’t leave. Security should be in the food grains. And now you see what happens is the whole society.
You will see like they want to give inheritance to their children. And what inheritance they want to give is a bank balance, cash and all those things. But actually the real inheritance, if they want to give to the future, they should be giving them the in food grains, the clean soil, clean water and clean air.
Because now what we are seeing because of the greed, we have polluted our food. We have polluted our air. We have polluted all of our water supplies.
So a real inheritance, if you want to give it is, is in the form of the food grains and land and the cows. What could see because of the greed, people are exploiting the mother nature. And actually the today’s generation has consumed the future generations natural resources.
At least we were fortunate that our ancestors gave us a very clean earth, very clean water and very clean air to breathe. Are we handing over these things to our future generation? That’s why Prabhupada wanted like focus should be more on these things. Yes, Prabhu.
Actually, this is a very, I’m realising that this is a almost like we are having two distinct subjects. One is the necessity for eco-friendly living. And then we talk about the way it has been implemented over here.
And maybe we’ll need two separate podcasts for this because this itself, what you’re talking about, I think I’m sure you can also you have done seminars on this and you can elaborate on this. And I would also like to discuss about it. So do you want to go further in this direction? Or you would like to focus on the we could do this podcast entirely about eco-friendly living.
And in the future session, we can have another about rural development, if you like. Or you want to combine it now? It’s a go hand in hand. OK, I think separated.
So if I understand how this is connected is what you’re saying is three ways. First is that like how Prabhupada’s vision is something which we can see vindicated or confirmed even in today’s crisis situation. And that was the last point you made and the latest point you made before that.
You also said that we discussed about how what success we have achieved over here. That may be measured in one way from the awards that people have got. But another way we can measure it is that just that we were self-sufficient over here.
So that’s also another way of looking at the success. And overall, then how we are successful and how the current situation is unsustainable. For that, you give some background about I like the hierarchy of need, comforts, luxuries, then prestige and then greed.
So needs and comforts can come through nature without much effort. But then when it becomes excessive, then it becomes a problem. Yes, true.
This is a solid grounding you have given us. So were you always interested in, say, environmental consciousness or was this something which has sparked off after reading Prabhupada’s books? Like you mentioned, even before this Govardhanikovillage project, the Don project, you were one of the pioneers. So how did you get involved in this whole field? Actually, because of my law background, Maharaj wanted me to look for the land.
And actually, Maharaj wanted this land when I joined in 1988-89. I remember Lekhna used to go and see a few pieces of land, but we are not satisfied with that. And then later on, I got the services of taking care of, in Chowpatty we had an orphanage.
And I was given the responsibility of handling the children. And then as I was taking care of the children, I saw Lekhna. I thought, let me visit their homes.
And many of the children were coming from village background. Because I was born and brought up in Bombay. So I did not know anything about farming.
I could not even understand how the rice plant looks like and how the wheat plant looks like. So then during the vacation time, I started visiting the children’s homes, visiting some of the parents and villages. And that’s how first I came in contact with the villages.
And then somehow got attracted to this village lifestyle. And at the same time, as you reach the Prabhupada books, you can clearly see like Prabhupada wanted farm communities very much. And then he was always talked about that how this industrial growth or the current way of living will not actually give the satisfaction.
So then we located the land in town. In the late 90s? 99. Okay, I think this was the time when the Y2K was also a matter of concern.
Yes, definitely. Yeah. So that was one of the reasons that prompted us to go for this project.
And then we started living there on the land. And then I started understanding how we should do the agriculture. And how I understood is the first person when I started like, let me go and see what doing agriculture in an organic way or in a natural way.
So the first, so I started visiting the different farmers fields and started understanding how they are doing things. So the very first farmer I went is a very famous, internationally famous natural farmer, very close to our farm here in Mada, about 100 kilometres north of our land. And the first thing he taught me is the weeds actually give the wealth.
Because what happens is it nowadays you will see in conventional agriculture, weeds are considered as a nuisance. And that is why all the weedicides and herbicides have come. And these are like polluting all over the land, water and air.
And is one of the major cause of different kinds of diseases in the world. So what modern science and what modern way of thinking, conventional way of thinking was thinking that the weeds are actually harmful. Whereas this person was saying actually, it is the wealth.
So it’s a weed, weed that grows, you cut it and give as a fodder to the cows. At the same time, different kinds of weeds are good greens. You can make a very good vegetables, which are medicinal in varieties, medicinal varieties of green vegetables are available in that.
So it’s a very good food for the human being, very good food for the cows. At the same time, it will give a ground cover. Now, you see you are sitting in the room, right? And then if you just go out and stand in the sun, how long you can stand in the sun? It’s too hot.
We can’t for very long. For five minutes at the most, you will stand and immediately you will come in the shade. And you are such a like we are grown up human beings.
And in the land, there are so much like the microorganisms are working. They need some shelter to work under. So that’s how the nature has made this green cover in the form of a weed, which can easily grow and cover the mother.
And so many microorganisms grow in that. The natural system, conventional farming, say like you destroyed. So by conventional, you’re not referring to traditional.
Conventional means what is considered the convention right now in the world. Yes. You could say, OK, mainstream, OK.
Mainstream agriculture. OK, so is this true for all weeds? Because I’ve also read about, say, how sometimes some pests come and attack and they destroy the whole farms. So is it that we can’t really means many things which may consider undesirable, they’re not as undesirable.
But it’s not that all of nature is benevolent. There are aspects of nature which are also which are also dangerous and we need to counter them. Isn’t it? This is not exactly what I’m trying to say.
OK. Nature is a perfect in itself. So if this word has come from the complete perfect, it is going to.
And problem is human interference. Because of the excess grid, we make human interference. And that’s why the problem happens.
Now, you take the example of forest. For thousands of years, the forest are maintained. If the pest comes.
If there is no natural arrangement to counteract that, then forest would have been destroyed long back. Isn’t it as a simple common sense? That means nature has made perfect arrangement to take care of itself. And that’s why we find that the forest and all this ecosystem is surviving for thousands of years.
Can I play the devil’s advocate here? Let’s see. Let me complete this. And what is the problem is that because of the grid, we try to take more.
So once you spray chemical these things, all the good pest and the bad pest both gets destroyed. Of course, system gets lost. Because always like that, there are like some insects that will eat the plants.
There are some insects which are non-vegetarians. They will eat that pest. So nature has created perfect balance for that.
But when you spray the chemicals, the natural balance is affected. I’ll give you one example. You know that Chernobyl in Russia, there was a nuclear disaster.
Radioactive nuclear waste, basically. So you remember that it was in school that time. Yeah, it was a huge disaster.
It’s a huge disaster. So that means nuclear radiation means everything got blasted, nothing remained there. So what Russian government is, they cordon off that area.
Because nobody was allowed to go because somebody goes there nearby in that particular area, radiation will affect. So what happened after 25 years? Some research people wanted to go and see. They saw whole nature has come back.
All different kinds of vegetation is there. All the animal species are there. How did that happen? It happened because of only one thing.
What was that? There was no human intervents in that. So that shows how the nature is powerful, how Krishna’s creation is powerful, and it has got full potency to regenerate itself. Sorry, what was the last time you said that? Because human involvement is not there.
So I think Chernobyl recovered back or what was the point you’re making? Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. The whole vegetation came back. The different trees grew there.
Different kinds of plants came up. Different kinds of animals also came up. From where did it come? It was a neutral holocaust.
Everything got neutralised. All seeds, everything was destroyed. So nature has the capacity to regenerate itself.
That’s what you’re saying. Regenerate itself, yes. That’s true.
See, there is no denying the fact that many of human actions have severely damaged the ecology. At the same time, not all human actions are necessarily, not all human interventions in nature are simply driven by greed. So that means, so for example, if I take a devil’s advocate, even agriculture, strictly speaking, is not a natural activity.
Agriculture doesn’t happen in nature. Agriculture has to be done by conscientious human effort. So we could say even agriculture itself is a technology.
The way crops we harvest and irrigate and grow them, it doesn’t happen automatically in nature. So agriculture is not like say fruits or like you said, weeds and fruits and other and shrubs that grow naturally. So we could say agriculture is also a result of human intervention in nature.
But it is a human intervention which is, which is not disruptive. And we can say even in that degree, agriculture is not disruptive, but agribusiness becomes disruptive. So I’m just a little uncomfortable with the idea saying that nature is perfect in the sense that ultimately material nature is filled with old age, disease and death.
So there are so many diseases that can come from nature. So when we say it’s perfect, even the Pandavas, they burned the Khandav forest to build a city over there. So there are some limitations beyond which when human actions go, then they become destructive.
But to some extent, as humans, we need to intervene in the actions of nature, but do it in a non-disruptive way. Because if we just leave it to nature, humans don’t have any defences. If we’re just living in forests, the predators in the jungle could very easily rip us apart and eat us.
So when we have some, we don’t have natural weapons for self-defence. So even a sword or a knife, that is at one level of primitive technology. So I’m a little uncomfortable with the idea of nature being all perfect and any intervention of human beings in the natural order being bad.
Sometimes the human intervention in natural order is essential for our survival. And sometimes the human intervention is such that it makes nature survival difficult. And then our survival also becomes impossible.
So maybe we need a stratification in this, something like natural intervention in goodness, natural intervention in passion, natural intervention or human intervention in goodness, passion, ignorance. So the thing is, what happens is like those who have studied the village life, they can understand these things. First, let us see like how we should live in this world.
We should be living in harmony according to the way Krishna wants us to live in this world. Okay. To live, living in respect for Mother Earth.
So Mother Earth is a Bhoomi Devi. She’s a consort of Lord Varahadev. Okay.
And so she is like Lakshmi herself. So we have to honour her and live it in such a way so that we replenish her resources rather than like exploit her resources. And whatever resources she has given it to us.
Okay. To use it in the service of Lord Vishnu. So that’s the way people should be living it.
Okay. So and then the thing is agriculture was always existing. It’s not like those people who give this theory like man has come from monkey and then they stayed in forest and then they started doing agriculture.
If you see Janak Maharaj, he was stealing the land and that’s how he found Mother Sita. Right? Yes. Literature and agriculture was always existing.
Yeah, I think you made a very significant difference. I got your point that, you know, it is not that we simply want to live according to nature or living naturally doesn’t mean just letting nature live its way. Living naturally means living the way Krishna wants us to live.
Like Krishna has taught us to live. So if you could say living naturally, we could give up all aspects of culture. There are so many things which human beings do which animals don’t do.
We cook our food, we wear clothes, we interact in cultured ways. So when we are talking about, there is a difference between living in harmony with nature and simply letting nature have its way entirely. So agriculture, so you made another point also is that, are we exploiting the resources or replenishing the resources? So with agriculture, we are not actually exploiting because agriculture has its own cyclic way by which the resources get replenished.
Whereas other forms of business, like say those which are based on fossil fuel and other professions, they are using non-replenishable resources. So that means, I like the difference between say, like living naturally versus living in harmony with nature. And living in harmony with nature according to what Krishna has taught us.
Yes, that is our purpose. Just few points that you mentioned about the animals, they will rip us apart. Usually what happens is, because I have stayed in the villages near forest, usually the forest animals will never come to the villages.
What has happened is, the man has destroyed the forest and our forest department has planted the kind of commercial trees like eucalyptus and all those things in the forest. So then what happens is, all the monkeys, elephants, they don’t have anything to eat in the forest. So then they come to the village and destroy the farmer’s crops.
Otherwise, like if you just maintain the forest the way it is, the animals will be happy to remain in the forest and eat nicely. But man has destroyed all the forest and made the monoculture because monoculture is never there in the nature. Nature is always biodiversity and all this conventional agriculture is going us into the direction of the monoculture and which is going to be very harmful for the nature and harmful for the human beings.
By monoculture you basically mean that we just try to make everything homogenous, whatever is the most financially lucrative. Monoculture means usually you will see huge only wheat and corn. All these are grown in a mass scale basis.
Because if you see Vedic, this thing, it was like a biodiversity and the more kind of like different kinds of millets, different varieties of rice, different varieties of dals are there, more varieties of vegetables are there. You remain healthy because you get overall nutrition. But today the food habits have changed.
It’s more like wheat based, corn based, nuts, because that is very easy for them to cultivate through the big tractors and mechanised agriculture. Whereas the way it’s being done all these years, apart from like this Green Revolution, before that it was a biodiversity and the Lord had created like companion crops, like one crop will help another crop. And that actually gives the prosperity.
It’s good for health. So now agriculture is actually destroying the biodiversity. That was like what was a natural that God has given it to us.
That’s significant. That means not only are we having industries which are not sustainable, but even agriculture is not sustainable. The way agriculture is done.
Oh, that’s quite sobering. I would like to explain one thing about this agriculture. See how many times Prabhupada explained in his books that you can live off the land, one acre of land and a cow and all the necessities of yourself will be satisfied by the land.
Read about these things. Yes. Yes.
Several times. Yes. Anybody who is a proper voluble or anybody who is reading Prabhupada’s books, many times he will come across these things.
Yeah. But what is the scenario that is happening in today’s agriculture is agriculture is not becoming economically viable for the people. And that is why the problem that is happening is you will you don’t find many people are getting into agriculture.
What you will find is so many people are leaving the agriculture. The farmers are committing suicide. It is almost 28 people die or 28 people in India commit suicide or related to the agriculture.
This is the worst thing that is happening. How frequently? 28 people. How frequently? Daily.
Daily. Daily. You will see the scientists, the statistics that are given in the Indian parliament about farmer suicide.
So they are given year wise. How many farmers are committing suicide? They are in thousands in number every year. Oh, my God.
So why this situation has come? Because of this conventional farming. And these kinds of like first you lost your seed or the seeds you are depending upon the corporations. Then fertilisers also you are depending upon the corporations.
And when the pest attack comes, that time also people keep buying chemical pesticides. So this whole agriculture gets lost. The seeds because people are no longer using natural seeds.
That’s what you’re saying. Because it is now. OK.
Yeah, it has become agribusiness. So the corporates, they are manufacturing the data, manufacturing the research and all the farmers, the different governments and different agriculture universities. So what is being taught is this conventional agriculture, what agriculture is happening to now, say that is like the chemical farming that is being taught in all the agriculture universities all over the world.
And all the nations are thinking by this chemical farming, we will become prosperous. But actually exactly opposite is the way of living that if you have a small farms and if you do it in organic way, actually the farmer will become prosperous and the farmer become prosperous, the country will also become prosperous. So this is what we need to understand.
And this is exactly what Prabhupada wanted is like you grow all your own food. So you will be secured. Whatever happens in the world, you will not get affected so that you will be able to peacefully follow your spiritual practises.
And this pandemic, that’s exactly that has happened. So what we are doing it is, so our aim is to show how farming can become economically viable for the people. If the farming is economically viable for the people, then people can actually live very happily.
Okay. Just one minute. I’m trying to understand the flow of your thought.
So one thing which you established till now is how the current way of living is not sustainable. Even the current way of farming is not sustainable. And on top of that, because farming is not seen as economically viable.
So people are leaving, people are either literally leaving their bodies or they are leaving the city, leaving and going to cities or something like that. So now we are going to talk, if I understand right, that when Prabhupada said that just with one piece of land, one acre of land, we can be sustainable. This seems to run contrary to the current understanding in society.
So now what you are trying, what you’re saying is how, how finance farming can be financially sustainable. So how, in a sense, what Prabhupada has said is true when the current economic situation seems to say otherwise. And how it is true, you are going to explain and you’re also going to say, show how you have been able to demonstrate that through the rural outreach.
Am I understanding it right now? Yes, that’s exactly. Yes. It’s on farm is like on is gone land.
So it becomes institutional farming. So farming will have some advantages, some disadvantages. So institutional farming, like we do farming here.
We document all our processes and then all our experience that we have organic farming, we can share with the people who are our neighbours. So when we share this knowledge, then neighbours will also start like having proper organic agricultural practises. So why that is necessary? Because if you want to establish the system, then the system can be best established in agrarian society.
In the urban setting, it becomes a little difficult to establish. And most of the time you will see Vedic time. It was always a land based economy.
So if you have a land based economy, then all this different occupations becomes easy to perform. So first, like we started doing our agriculture. And then what we found is that when we started doing our rural outreach programmes, we could see like there are people who are surrounding us.
One phenomenon we observed is like many of the farmers are migrating. They are doing agriculture only in rainy season, four months. And after any season, they go and work as a construction labourers or they go and work as a bricks making unit.
So basically they leave the village. Sometimes they leave or sometimes the whole family leaves. So then how you will do outreach? The family itself is migrating where you will go on tracing them.
So then what we tell them, why don’t you stay on the land? And then we will tell you how you can live off the land. So just kindly do the agriculture practises, how we suggest it. So when we did first like a baseline survey of understanding the local situation, because any project you start, you must know the local situation.
So we collected all this information and we could see that some of the farmers were staying around us because Palghar is like a lot of tribal. Many tribals stay in this. And we could find out in our baseline survey, some of the farmer families have less than 10,000 a month, less than 10,000 a year income.
Can you imagine less than 10,000 a year means how much in a month? Probably how much it will convert into dollars? $15, not even $15, $12 or something like that. $13, $14. Dollars.
So that’s how some people were staying. So then what we thought, why this condition? Because their agriculture practises are wrong and they are not given proper guidance. OK, just a minute.
So now what you’re trying, this is a little surprising for me. Just a minute. So that means you’re saying that agriculture, people who are doing agriculture, that is their life.
But sometimes they may not know how to do it well then. And we may know it better. So is this knowledge like knowledge, which is also it’s agricultural knowledge, but it is not like a common knowledge in the agricultural community today.
It’s something like that. I see. It’s not like we have invented this knowledge.
So this knowledge was already existing. And this knowledge, we got it from like previous two generations. Like I asked a person who is like a grandfather who is like 80 or 70, 80 years old.
And they told us how the agriculture was being practised before Green Revolution. So we just learned from the society itself. But in between, in 1960s onwards, all this Green Revolution and all this chemical fertilisers, the pesticides and hybrids came up.
All that thing got washed off. And then people got into a different like agriculture patterns. Instead of cultivating what the family needs, they started cultivating different kinds of cash crops.
And then for cash crops, they started getting into all these different kinds of like agriculture practises, which were not sustainable. So we just got the biodiversity concept back, got the sustainability concept back. So what we learned.
Another thing here. So you mean to say this disruption is just like a couple of generations old? Yes. So it is not that the British came and plundered India and that time our agriculture got destroyed or it happened something.
But the special big thing is the recently now, is it like that? Yes. Recently now, say Britishers actually wanted to disrupt our agriculture, but they couldn’t do so much. So there was Albert Howard, one of the experts.
He came in 1905 in India. Britishers told him, you go and improve Indian agriculture. He came and stayed here in India and studied the local agriculture here, went back to UK and improved agriculture over there.
He has documented, he has written a book and he said that my gurus in agriculture are these Indian farmers. What is his name once again? Dr. Albert Howard. Albert Howard.
Okay. Amazing. He wrote an agriculture testament.
It’s a very famous book, often quoted. So Indian agriculture was very sustainable agriculture and satisfying. It was there.
So then we thought like how we can make them like stand on their own field. So at this, I will share something. This is a picture of a farmer.
This is a picture of a typical body. When it’s developed, it will look like. So what you will have big trees.
These are mango and cashew trees. And in between, they do intercropping. That is either jasmine, mugra of floriculture or vegetables.
And then they have their rice paddy and others. So you have a long term crops. Let me say mangoes and other things.
After three years, once a year, they will give in. Then you plan your land in such a way where you have, say, papaya, banana, who can give once a year income and the vegetables and the grains seasonally three times or four times a year. They will give you income.
So when you arrange your whole thing in such a way. So there’s a long term income, middle term income and short term income. And you have biodiversity that will actually increase your agriculture output and you can live off the land.
So then and all this can grow in the same weather. It doesn’t require different weathers for all the climatic zones. The crop patterns will be different.
See our region is a heavy rainfall wetland. So rice will come more and dry land area like wheat and other crops will come there. So agriculture is specific.
It’s a different crops at different regions. So the principle is the same, but you have to apply as per your geographical conditions. So now if I understand right, what you are saying is, so we taught how to establish this concept to people and you said you learned this from people two generations ago.
Yes. OK. And so these are people who this is not something we have implemented on our farms or we may have implemented.
But this is what you’re telling is how this has been implemented under our guidance by the local villagers. Yes. OK.
So like this model has been almost more than 1000 farmers. They have adopted this thing and I will show you how that’s beneficiary. So typically this is one farmer, his two sons.
Two sons are well educated, but still they want to continue in agriculture. They don’t want to take any factory job or any other place in the job. So that’s what I would say is like a success where the farmer’s son wants to do farming and understand it getting any company job or other things.
Now, this is like an agriculture output. So this family came in contact with in our this thing in 2013 and 14. So he was getting 8800 rupees yearly income from his farm and then he would go out and do odd jobs.
But you see 2014, he got 13,000 and 15, 16, he got one like 22, 16 came back and then 2018-19 he has gone up to 2 lakhs rupees. Now I will explain how he achieved that. It’s almost a 20 times increase.
Yes. It’s huge. So previously he was just taking one crop rice and outside and working.
After that we told him along with the rice you grow vegetables also. So next year he got rice plus vegetables. Then next year we told him rice, vegetable and some floriculture.
Because what he planted it start eating the flowers in 2015-16. So he got rice, vegetable and floriculture. Then in 2016, then he added rice, vegetable, floriculture and cereals as well.
And then you will see 2018-19 when he had like rice, vegetable, fruit paste, floriculture, cereals and vermicompost. So all the little stream of income from different things eventually made him earn this much from his land. So what we did is just shared some knowledge with him and gave little inputs that he wanted.
So this is amazing. Now when you explain it this way, it in a sense seems so like intuitive and simple. But you are saying because the generational contact was lost.
So even the farmers for whom this is their livelihood, they didn’t know about this, is it? You see sometimes what happens is the solution is simple also. But we can’t believe like the problem may be complicated. Sometimes it could be such simple as this.
Just like see what your great-grandfather was doing. Simply just do that. Just by necessity, Vedic way of farming was never one thing.
As I mentioned like the rice, once upon a time in India, you knew how many varieties of rice was there. Varieties of rice? Yes. That means like different brands or? Different varieties of rice like we have a Sulti Kolam, then we have Idraini.
So different varieties of rice. Like Basmati is there. Yeah, Basmati is there.
Okay. So how many were there? A few hundred or? Just throw any figure that comes to your mind. Five hundred? It was two lakhs of varieties.
Two lakh varieties of rice? Was only there in India. Not to speak of China and then Thailand, Sri Lanka and other places. You know that Dr. Vandana Shiva? She is an environmentalist.
Yeah, very famous. She has Navadhanya society. She works for this seeds and all that.
So all this information she has given in her books. So there was like the biodiversity of rice. Then we have varieties of like the millets.
In one millet, you take the foxtail millet. You will find 20-30 varieties or more than that now. Previously, it was more.
And each variety would have a different kinds of nutrient values. And there is Dr. Deval Ted who is there in Orissa. One single rice scientist.
He has got 1420 different varieties of rice. And he has got a nutrition analysis done for this rice. And many of these rice are having medicinal varieties.
Like you have some heart disease. Then you have some iron deficiencies. You have some haemoglobin less.
Or you want to recover from major diseases. After that, you need recuperations. So many varieties of rice was available.
Food was medicine that time. So what today’s generation is measuring success in terms of yield. You go to any farmer.
How much did you get from this? You will be always calculating in terms of how much yield you get. But actually you should be calculating how much nutrient I got from one acre of land. And that’s what is exactly is needed.
Because today what is happening in order to earn the wealth, we give up our health and then to recover our health back, we have to spend all our wealth. So this is how today’s society people work. So this is how you will see the simple thing.
And this is what exactly Sri Prabhupada wanted. Like you grow varieties of things and you become self-sufficient. So just so when you say as Prabhupada actually hinted at this, that we could have biodiversity or Prabhupada has given the principles and then.
Yes. Prabhupada said all your necessities will come from the land. And I have still seen farmers in India.
Only thing that they need to buy from outside is a soil. Oh, OK. You can understand.
Except salt, what are all things you need to eat? Vegetables, grains, everything can come. Everything can come. And only if you are selective about particular things, they might not be available.
But if somebody is not selective, then whatever is locally available, we can live with that. See, it was such a scientific. Our ancestors knew how to do this agriculture.
No matter what kind of rainfall is there, they were always successful. Why? Because one simple farmer in Orissa taught me this technique. Doesn’t know how to read and doesn’t know how to write.
Rose, see that is a foxtail mill, ragi. He has three varieties of ragi. One variety comes very good when there is a heavy rain.
Another variety comes very good when it’s a medium rain. And another variety comes in the very low rainfall area. So rain will be either very heavy, middle or less.
What kind of rainfall is there? He will always get his crops. That one variety will definitely come. So it’s not that he is living off the land and the nature is going up and there is different climate change and all those things, but still he is successful.
So that’s why monoculture is destructive. Monoculture is destructive. Yeah.
And biodiversity. Okay. Amazing.
Monoculture is more than 70 years old. 20 years you can have a success rate. 70 years is not like he has to go out and bake.
Everything he got from his own land, all the grains, the cereals, the oilseeds, the vegetables, everything he got and some cow milk. And he could live very easily on his land. All the farming techniques, the so-called today’s learned people think he is illiterate.
But he has actually mastered the art of living. So that’s what we need to work is on the seeds. So I will just show you that slide about the seeds.
You seem to have done a lot of research in this field. I said going to Orissa and meeting some, meeting farmers over there. So what’s the inspiration for all this, that Prabhupada’s instruction that we can live on the land? And how do we go about implementing that? And to find out ways of implementing that you did all this research? On all the networks.
Yeah, you have to do this. Like if you’re doing agriculture and so you must know how to do it. The way to learn is from these people only who are like successful models.
The theory that is giving like giving examples. Let’s get like. So what I want is like about this thing.
The seeds, as I talked about the biodiversity. Yeah. Now I will show you that about the seeds that we that this project that we are working upon.
But what happens is this is very important for all of us to understand why we need to work on the seeds. Because now the most of the seeds are controlled by the corporations, multinational companies. And then how you can consider yourself as independent if your country is dependent on someone, some other country or some other corporation for giving you the seeds.
Your independence is of no use because they can control everything. So that’s why we thought we should have a proper training programme for the farmers so that they can grow the seeds properly. It’s a science that how the seed companies are doing it.
Similarly, we want to train our farmers in such a way that they can understand the techniques of eating the seeds in a scientific way so that it goes on. The yield goes on increasing. And we save this indigenous varieties of seeds.
So we made like some seed demo plots. Then some farmers started like getting training for the seed cultivations. They will grow only for the seed purpose.
And then whatever the seeds they have grown up, some farmers will do it for the large scale production. And then we can have a community seed bank. Now what has happened is the people are taking patents for the different varieties of rice and all those things.
But actually that’s wrong because a human has not invented those seeds. Those seeds, the Supreme Lord has given it to us. And no scientist can produce these kinds of seeds in the laboratories, which has got so much of nutrition values.
And then we can do all this food products and all those from those different kinds of inlets in kitchen garden. So what our programme is like to have indigenous seeds, which are climate resistant, because all of you know, the seasons are not coming on time. Previously, when I was a student, the 7th June, I’ve seen in Bombay, always rain would start.
But now it is not so regular. And all over the world, the climate is changing. And then it should be nutritional superior.
And then farmers should have seeds sovereignty. Because they have been keeping these seeds for generations. Why should like somebody get patent and only that one particular person will get right to use those seeds.
And by cultivating these kinds of livelihood for them. And this is like when first, like when you have a nutritious food, your family will become healthy. So all this is being done in each village separately or these banks are like for one taluka, one town or each of this is for one village.
Not in the village, it’s like we make the cluster of the farmers. So they come together. They may be like within the same locality, may not be exactly from that same village, but in that same area.
All come together. And risk mitigation means like because of whatever climate change that has taken place, the different kinds of pests have come. This indigenous seeds can easily handle all those things.
The hybrid seeds cannot handle all those things. And because what happens, these seeds plus like cow dung as a fertiliser, then you grow like the soil is healthy. What happens is your health will be equal to the soil health.
Not what has happened is GM seeds. GM seeds. There is like some toxin in that itself.
So that toxin goes to the land, the soil gets spoiled. And then the water that is eaten by the cattle, they also get contaminated. The food that you eat that also get contaminated.
So the whole ecosystem is destroyed because of that. So this is how you need to work upon this. And this is how we have done the programme.
And all those things that we are doing it is mainly so that we have devotees who are staying in the cities. Devotees who put food to eat, they need to be healthy. So the ISKCON farms can produce few things, but we can share this knowledge with the surrounding neighbouring farmers.
So the farmers, those who come in contact with us, they also start like replenishing the nature rather than exploiting the nature. And they get mutually benefited. The people who those who are staying in the cities like devotees will get a non-toxic food, chemical free food to eat.
And then farmers also will be able to take care of their soil better. The water supply is better. Air quality is also better.
So it’s mutual beneficial. And what happens is this farmer, when we associate with them, then naturally they get attracted. About this is a very significant thing.
Because generally when you talk about farm communities, at least my vision was that we make devotees and the devotees come and live on farms. And our devotees start farms. And they have been done.
But it is quite difficult in a sense if devotees have lived always in cities for them to come to villages. So in a sense, you are inverting the process that instead of making devotees and then getting them to become farmers, we reach out to farmers and then make them into devotees. So that’s quite a creative way of doing it.
It’s like it’s a natural in the sense, like how many farm communities you can have. And once you buy the farm, then a lot of land management and a lot of that’s true. So you at one hand, you keep on developing the farms.
So that becomes like a spiritual centre as well as it can give the good agriculture practises knowledge. And all those people, the farmers, they start this cultivation practises. And then when they come to visit our farm to understand agriculture, naturally we take them to the temple.
So we have a nice kirtan. Then we give them Bhagavad Gita and then they go back to their village. So some of the villages are far away and in tribal areas.
So then we go there. All the village come together. Then they start like Jalmashtami celebrations and different celebrations.
Best thing for the tribals is like they like to do dancing and they like the singing. So we have a really good, nice dancing and kirtan parties. So we go there, tell them little philosophy, tell them like how they can take care of the Tulsi Maharaj.
And simply just chant this holy name and just take care of the cows properly. Because once you start organic farming, they understand that it cannot be done without the cows. So then they start keeping proper care of the cows also.
Why the cows are in trouble today? Because they are being separated from the agriculture. When cows and agriculture are together, they are mutually beneficial to each other. You can take care of the agriculture also nicely.
And that’s the way actually you will be able to do cow protection. You cannot do cow protection by just passing in laws or by any other ways. Or you may be able to protect the cows in Goshalas when that’s like kind of a temporary situation.
That’s not sustainable. It’s not in a naturally sustainable fashion. It’s not naturally sustainable.
Actually the farmers has to keep the cows and the cows has to understand its importance for the agriculture purpose. So that is the most important thing. Can you elaborate on this? Actually there are 2-3 things I wanted to ask you about what you said.
But last point you said, how exactly is cow protection and agriculture naturally related? Now Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, Krushi Go Raksha. He brings both of them together as Vaishya Karma Subhavajam. So how does agriculture make cow protection viable? Agriculture is whatever grass that grows, whatever weights are there, you feed to the cows.
Cows will give milk and the cow dung has to go back to the agriculture. So there are various different preparations that you may want to make like Jivamrut, Dashaparani, then Ghanajivamrut and different kinds of other things. The best ingredient is cow dung and the cow urine.
So cow urine also acts as a deterrent for the pest. It also acts as a hormones. It also acts as a nitrogen.
So by making different kinds of combinations, you can make varieties of things by which you can increase the soil fertility. Oh, and all this is like, this is like modern scientific knowledge or it is also like making all these components is traditional knowledge? It’s a traditional knowledge. Oh, okay.
So they may not know exactly that this is nitrogen and these things, how it works, but they know it works. Yes, it knows it works. So what we have to tell nowadays is like, we have to tell like, this has got N, this has got P, this has got K, explain it.
Then how that like educated people can understand. Okay. Many things were happening properly.
That’s amazing. What we are doing it is like, so we are teaching them this material level and how to take care of the agriculture, how to take care of other things. That is not sufficient.
We have to teach them about the spirituality also. Only when they leave the life, according to the Lord Krishna’s instructions, God conscious way, then only the earth will supply all those things. Simply by your material techniques, things will not happen.
So we have to tell them like this, you have to do that will become your agriculture sustainable. And at the same time, the spiritual level, what is taught in Bhagavad Gita, So that unless you perform this Sankirtan Yajna, then only they, the Lord will send the rain. Because mainly that for agriculture, rain is very essential and rain has to come on time.
And that is controlled by the Supreme Lord. And only when you are God consciousness, he will give you that. So this wholesome knowledge has to be given to them.
And that’s how like spreading Krishna consciousness at the same time, teaching them how you can live off the land. And then the external things will not trouble you much. That’s remarkable.
So then, in a sense, the Krishna conscious outreach is also happening organically. You don’t literally go to give them, you don’t go to preach. You go to help and while helping them, they associate with devotees and they become, in a sense, inspired.
So is it that we offer help only to those people who become devotees or the help you offer to potentially to anyone and people naturally reciprocate? Where we see there are sincere people, we offer help. Like all this knowledge of say, how to make the vadi, how to have this seed banks and all those things. So those also you, means do you judge the spiritual interest of the people before doing that? Or that you start first directly and then gradually people take up? First, we see the people are as sincere.
So what we have done is like when we saw as they’re developing or go to the village farm and saw the surrounding areas. So naturally, we thought like we should do something for them. Because it’s like whatever you have, you would like to share with others.
Yes. Previous, our whole Vedic tradition was that those were charitable. And then they would like before they would take their own prashadam, they would always go out and ask, is there anyone who has not taken any food? And even nobody is there, then only they could take it.
So this is a charitable nature was there. So what we thought is like if we can organise, so we can have some grocers. This grocers has to find some job, could take some CSR fund, which is legally available for us for this kind of activities, engage some of our grocers doing this kind of things.
And that’s how we will be able to bring people to Krishna consciousness as well. At the same time, we can create a nice community around us. So that’s what sometimes like neighbouring some children’s came to us.
Just one minute before you go to that. There’s a lot you said. So CSR is Corporate Social Responsibility.
So now that means when we started offering all this to people, all these resources, all this help. So it’s not necessary that we had to say invest our funds because it was seen as charitable work. So we could also get funds from from people.
So we give the expertise, we give the we basically took the initiative and then the resources came. Is it like that somewhat? Yes. We could see like how we can help out because of ourselves.
Also, we also need good food to eat and a good people around us. Because if you don’t engage in proper constructive work, they will go for destructive kind of activities. Yes.
That’s how like it can be easily done. And what we see is if people are sincere, we go and help. And then sincere people will naturally get attracted to Krishna.
And then there are different levels like some pick up very quickly. Some people just like remains kind of a very good well-wisher. Some people will do lots of service.
So different grades will be there in that. They will always become like very favourable and appreciative of Krishna’s devotees. And as soon as we go into the village, all the children’s and villages will come and start participating with us in Haryana.
Or at least like Hare Krishna people have come. Oh, activities. So when you say people are sincere by sincere, you basically mean that they actually want to.
So are you talking about spiritual sincerity or like material responsibility that if you offer them help, they will take it or both? So basically like both also. But basically we see that like they’re sincere to work on the land. OK.
Sincerely improve the condition. It’s not like some people will just take the help and may not do anything on that. So we have to understand.
Yeah. OK. I think then if if they have that sense of earnestness to improve them, the situation and they will naturally take up spirituality also because they will be able to see that this spiritual, this bhakti will also Krishna conscious also improve me, improve my situation.
So that’s that’s a good starting point. So in a sense, what we are doing is we could say we are like integrating compassion and devotion together. In the domain of say agriculture.
Isn’t it? Yes. In the domain of agriculture also and then the family means the family will have a children’s. So the children’s education also will come.
And children in rural area, many places, the education quality is very low. So sometimes like my children who is in 9th standard, but cannot do simple additions also. So that’s the level of like education is there some places in India.
So initially, like when we came here and we were living. So neighbouring children’s game. Can you help me out in some of this mathematics and science? So one or two Brahmachari just gave some time and we could see those children’s coming for our Jalmashtami festival, taking up some services.
Then we saw for Pushyabhishek, they came on their own, helped us to pluck the flowers and participated in chanting and dancing. So we thought this is also a good opportunity. So through CSR, then we could employ one or a few teachers who help them out in some of their academic studies.
At the same time, like we have a student’s camp at our Gaurdhanika village. And this student’s camps are very effective in changing the students attitude. So children come and stay with us for a week.
They participate in all of our morning programmes. And then we teach them all the Bhagavatam stories. At the same time, we help them a little bit in their academics.
And by the end of the camp, we see many children. They say like now, today onwards, I will become vegetarian. Some children, they insist their parents buy Bhagavad Gita for me.
And then we have seen through these children’s, now the parents are also coming to the temple. And through the children’s, we have seen the teachers are also coming to the temple. So like now, from children, we went into the parents, from children’s, we went to the teachers.
And all together, we have a nice congregation coming up through this initiative. This is amazing. So normally, what age group children are these? These are all school children, basically.
School in any level, like first, second, third, or like secondary? No, first, at least like. Higher secondary or secondary? Say fifth standard. Fifth standard, okay.
Above age of 10 years of age. Okay. Because surrounding our village, there are not many big colleges or college hostels are there.
So we can’t go typically our ISKCON Youth Forum. Then we discussed like now, if there are no colleges, schools are there. So we’ll get into the school preaching.
And the school preaching is, now we have seen, now 7-8 years. So some of the children’s, then they become part of our ISKCON Youth Forum. Some of the children’s like to work good in education, they go for higher studies.
And ISKCON Youth Forum all over India, ISKCON Pune, ISKCON Delhi. There are so many bases in different colleges. So quite like a few students from our neighbouring areas could go and stay in the base.
So that’s how like now we see that school preaching will eventually you will get the ready-made candidates for your ISKCON Youth Forum. So when you said earlier, this is like a good trajectory they are set on. So when you said earlier, say we help them in, initially the Brahmacharis help them in some math or science.
And now we have teachers. So is this like official tuition classes or have you started a school itself or is it something a formal institution? Or how are we offering this educational support to these children? Let’s say we have a school that’s for our Gurukul patients. And then we have these teachers who go out to the schools.
We have about almost 30 schools and we go and help them out in teaching science and maths. And then we have them come for residential camps. And when they come to residential camps, then we get the opportunity to present the same because all those teachers are devoted teachers.
So they not only teach the mathematics science, they teach the value education. Value education is that this thing only. Okay.
Consciousness only. Value education is taught. We go actually to the schools.
Sorry, value education, we actually go to the schools and teach them directly or? Yes. Yeah, go to the schools because we get a very nice response from the teachers because already helping them out in different things. So they don’t feel that you are better than us and you are showing us down.
They’re happy to have the help that we are providing. Yes. Nowadays, like the schools, they face a lot of different challenges also.
Recently, we were invited by the local administration education department because some children committed suicide in national schools. So then they said, tell us like how you can help us in students suicide prevention programmes. So we are thinking like how to develop a programme by which we can help the students.
And then we got talent search. Oh, okay. About like now, on an average, like 1200 to 1300 school, like 1200 children on an average for last 10 years.
They appear from our surrounding area for Gita talent search. Gita talent search? Yes. Okay.
It’s like GLC. That’s all the way it’s done. Okay.
So we do it in such a way like now we go and teach the Bhagavad Gita in five, six classes. Though from first to fourth chapter only because these are students. We teach on the first four chapters and the exam is there on the first four chapters.
Okay. And that’s how it fits in their schedule. They don’t have to study too much.
They don’t have to study too much. Okay. And we just want to introduce Gita to them.
Okay. And then this is all those children who are successful who got the prizes. At least now we have about 50 to 60 children who will get prizes.
And then we have a special programmes for these children. Okay. And that’s how like able to keep a good contact with these children.
Oh, okay. To become part of our. So you said 1200 students have been participating like this for 10 years almost.
Yes. So you started all this from which year? All these. So it’s 2010 we started all our outreach.
2003 we came here in this land. Okay. Budget was very low, very few devotees were there.
And we were busy taking care of our agriculture and other things. And when we gained some experience, we started sharing with surrounding areas. Okay.
So now if I understand right, there are three things happening from what I understood. So first we go to the villages and we teach them farming. Then they come to the temples and they take up some level of Krishna consciousness.
That’s one level of interaction between us and the farmers. Then another level of interaction is. One second.
See, we have a systematic programme. Whoever we are helping them in agriculture education, we have a special programmes for them as well. We don’t need anyone else.
And they do come to the temple as well. So we have preachers going there and we do the programme also in those areas. Yes.
Okay. We will not expand. If our preachers are not there, we are not going to expand too much.
We will expand to the extent we are able to preach to them through Brahmachari preachers as well as Gurus. Okay. So currently when you say expand, we are doing this in how many places? In mostly, majority of our work is in Palghar district.
Okay. That is in the, maybe say. And in Pune and others, Pune and Satar area also, we are beginning now.
Most of our devotees there, they are also working for the farm projects and other. So we are also starting this kind of initiatives. So, in a sense, this is a replicable and scalable model, isn’t it? What you have done over here? Yes, we want that this always is there in my mind.
Like whatever we do, it should be replicable. Otherwise, it is of no use. Oh, okay.
Work only in specified conditions only. So now, the Govardhan eco-village, if we consider, there are many parts of it. There is the resort part.
There is the Vrindavan Gardens part. And now the Bhagavatam Institute is there, all that. But when we talk about replicating this, just if we have a farm project with a farm, and then we have devotees who go out.
So, for the replicability of this particular model, we may not need like a huge amount of investment, isn’t it? See, as far as other things are concerned, it depends from the local situation. Scalable is agriculture part. Yeah, of course.
Rural outreach. Yeah, right, right. I understand.
So, overall Govardhan eco-village, because there are so many other things, the logistical requirements are high. But for the particular rural outreach, in one sense, the investment may not be very high in that sense. Yes, like you see, we have many temples here.
Other farm projects can have one simple temple also. So, that will depend on the local leaders and local situations. Oh, okay.
Agriculture will remain the same. And cows, agriculture, and then sharing our knowledge with others. Hmm.
So, we have three things. First is what you mentioned. At one level, we have a contact with the farmers to give them some assistance in farming in a way that is financially sustainable.
And then we also have programmes in those areas. So, we help them both financially and spiritually. Agriculture is not just, just not a financial aid.
It should be ecological, environment-friendly agriculture, sustainable agriculture with all indigenous practises. Oh. That will activate into financial system.
Oh, yeah. So, when I said financial, it’s not, basically we help them financially means we help them to live in a way that is sustainable and it is financially as an ecological sustainable. That’s what.
Okay. Yes. So, that is one level of interaction with the farmers.
And another is what you talk about the children. Now, usually, and you said that through the children, you also have this parent. So, you mean these children are often different from the farmers for whom we are doing the Wadi and other projects.
Is it? Yes, it’s children’s like, the schools like, are there in some towns like, we have Wada town. So, some schools are there. And but most of the children are from farming background.
Okay. Like the farmers to whom we are trying is those are below poverty line. Oh, those with whom we are doing the Wadi project.
Yeah, you can make that out. If they are having certain criteria. So, criteria is like, those are below poverty line, very poor people with whom we are interacting.
Oh, okay. And when we go to the schools and you say you have this, you teach the Gita, are these Hindu schools or even in the government schools, you can go and directly teach the Gita? Isn’t secularism? It is like, mostly there are government schools only, very few private schools here, like the Jila Parishad schools, the government schools only. Okay.
But then there is no concern of secularism. How are you teaching a religious text or something like that? 98% is no problem. Only some principles, sometimes they create trouble.
What I did is, when in the beginning, I went to the principles meeting, where the all principles come together and give the presentation. And that’s how then officially permission was given by the Principles Association and got it. But sometimes some schools, sometimes there is some issues and we go to the next school.
Okay. So, when you give the presentation, you said how this will help the students? What was the thrust of the presentation basically? Basically, how the Gita is relevant in today’s world and how it helps actually for us to progress as a human being and how you can live a good life and how it will be useful, how students will not go astray in a wrong way and person means automatically he will be away from all kinds of vices and all those things. Okay.
And how is the overall demographic here? Are most people say Hindus or do we have people from other religions and do they oppose us? How is that aspect? There are always lines like other faiths are also there surrounding us, but we are not so much affected. Okay. So, now, so naturally I suppose the students who get connected with us, they will probably be from the broad our faith itself.
Other people also join to our programmes as well. Oh, is it? Okay. Interesting.
Yeah, I remember long ago, I saw one picture of sign like we had this National Gita, Gita League kind of things. Some Muslim girl had won the international prize or something like that. Also, it was quite a newsworthy item.
I have seen some of our other people came and stayed in our residential camp over here also. Oh, really? Parents also came and they appreciated our work and they could get all other things from us as well. Oh, that’s remarkable.
And so, is a lot of, there is sometimes a lot of concern in some circles that there’s a lot of Christian conversion happening in the rural and tribal parts of India. Is that a significant challenge for us in the vicinity over here? Yes, definitely. There is a presence of other faiths are there.
But one thing you need to understand is like this. People have reached to the very remote corners where it’s not easy to go like this. The road is there.
Then after that, then you go on motorcycle. After that, even motorcycle also can’t go. Then you have to walk.
So, in that remote villages also, these people are there for many decades ago. So, that means that time the facilities were even more austere than what is there now. I know what was the condition of our main highway about 20 years back, 30 years back.
So, that time also, these people of this faith have gone and approached into this remote area and they are trying to help some other people. So far, we also need to go and reach out to these people. Our people also need to stay with these people and understand their difficulties, interact with them and then share our knowledge with them and then share some resources with them.
Otherwise, like now, how we will just keep complaining of other things. We need to reach out to these people and understand their difficulties and share our higher consciousness with them. Then I don’t think why will they go somewhere else? Oh, OK.
Yeah. Yeah. In a sense, we can.
I like this whole approach that. In a sense, whoever reaches people the first and who actually helps them, if they are putting in the efforts, they will get the rewards. So rather than blaming them, we can say that we can take it as an inspiration for us to reach out more.
Yes. That’s the main thing like we need to reach out because how many of our people are willing to stay in those kinds of austere conditions where there won’t even a proper thatch hut is also there. So in the remote locations, it’s a very austere life and challenges.
So we also need to take that much of hard work, sincerity and dedication work. Then definitely people will listen to us. So that is so true.
Actually, I was reading a book about the spread of say there is a book called The New Christendom. So in America, Christianity is declining. So what they’re saying is in Africa and Asia, Christianity will spread.
And then from here, we will have people coming because in America, not many people want, especially in Catholics, they don’t want to become priests and stay unmarried. So in many American churches now from Asia, they’re importing priests over there because they are shortage of priests. So they’re saying that that’s how it will spread.
So there in that book, I read that at least this is their claim. I don’t know how true it is that we have translated the Bible into more dialects, Indian dialects than the Gita has been translated. So it shows in their dedication.
So one question is that because they have their places of worship in a very remote areas and I’ve seen some of my friends when they were travelling, there’s no other place to stay, but in those places of worship and those people were accommodated there. So the fact that when they went inside and made these kinds of facilities, we also need to go and make all sorts of facilities. Then only like people will take us seriously and people as whoever reaches out to them, they will follow them.
This is a very practical reality and this raises maybe a little volatile question that at a time when people are in need, can we rigidly differentiate between material and spiritual? Because in some ways, if you see this whole idea that at one level in our movement, we don’t want to get into philanthropy because we want to focus on spiritual outreach, but ultimately we have to meet people where they are at. And when we give them what they need, then as from your experience, as you said, they will become more open to what is their ultimate need. In some ways, we have to address their immediate need.
They become receptive to their ultimate need. So like you said, other faiths have done that quite a bit. They offer help at a humanitarian level and then people become, people turn towards them or get converted.
So how do we do this balance between say helping people at a material level and then doing spiritual outreach? How do we balance that? Philanthropy is one thing, but what I was saying like the grotas has to be charitable because if you see as per Vedic Dharma, it’s the duty of grotas to be charitable and especially like as far as the food is concerned, that’s a basic thing. Like in villages, you walk into any house, no matter how poor that house is, they will offer you something because food is there abundant in their house and they have been taught in the families, whoever comes to your house, you must take them. I will show you one example.
Once I was stuck on the highway traffic jams and we’re just stuck there for a long time. So some of us, we got down on the road. So the car who was next to us, he also got down and then you see on the highway, there are so many construction labourers working and they have like a small plastic cover and one family was making on the wood, nice bhakris, the chapatis and a person from this next, my neighbour like a car, he just waited there and that’s a hot on the wooden fire that it was being made.
He was so tempted immediately that woman fed him like three full rotis along with the sabji and that fellow wanted to give some Lakshmi money. He, the family refused it. He says like you came to our place.
How can we take money for the food? So that’s how the rich India’s culture is. These are poor people on the street. These are poor people who don’t even have their own house.
They just work on the road construction and if they don’t work at the end of the day, they will not get anything to eat. But they also felt to be charitable. So that’s what initially when we came, one of our neighbour came, he had a cancer and he had to be operated and he needed like almost one lakh rupees.
So then we arranged like through our devotees doctors in government hospitals. His operation can be done. So this is not philanthropy.
This is like just a common sense. Like people come to you for help, then you have to help them. So that’s how like to be, you have to understand like gross has to do some charity.
And this charity is necessary. So those people on within us, like whatever they need, we just help them out a little bit. At the same time, by giving them some material help, we give them the spiritual help.
Also, by which they also understand like both the things are essential. So if you just the philanthropy that may not be this thing, but if it is like how should Prabhupada himself started in Mayapur, when he saw the poor child was eating in the garbage and fighting with the dog, immediately he said like we should start the Anakshatra. We should start like giving prasad.
So when you are prosperous or you have some means, you need to share with those people who absolutely don’t have anything. And at the same time, it is such a way that you can elevate them spiritually as well. So this is a very striking difference you are making between philanthropy and charity.
So charity, if I understand the way you are using it, it is a natural human expression of, say, concern or caring for others. And it’s a duty of a Kshatriya or duty of a Grahastha rather, householder. Whereas, if I understand right, philanthropy basically means like a organised, institutionalised effort to focus almost exclusively on people’s material needs.
Is that how you are differentiating it? Is charity more spontaneous and philanthropy is more institutionalised? It is more spontaneous in the sense like you see, it was not only in India, in outside India also, like whenever travellers would go, we have read in His Holiness Bhakticharu Maharaj’s when he was travelling to the West, as well as others, like the villagers, when they saw that the traveller has come, they naturally offered some food to him. Right now, also, if you go for walking in Chardham Yatra, in Badrinath, Kedarnath and all those areas, these are very remote area. There are not much hotels.
You walk all the day, end of the day, you reach some village. Naturally, the villagers will come and see how many people have come on pilgrimage. Immediately, they will arrange some food for them.
They take it next day morning. They eat something and then they start walking ahead. So naturally, this system exists.
So, those are like poor people staying in a mountain, but still they know this is the way the pilgrims go and village on their own have arranged a place for stay. On their own, they have arranged like tonne by tonne, we will feed the people who are coming to our villages. Yes, amazing.
You know, so in a sense, we are simply continuing what was the part of not just Indian culture, but like a spiritual, because not necessarily spiritual, just a caring culture or human culture that was there, that was there in the past. My grandfather, he came from a quite underprivileged family. So, he was in Andhra, then he came to Mumbai for studying.
So, he told me that when he was in Mumbai, they didn’t have like hostels and system like that. So, they were just staying in a small place and he would go to different houses nearby and they had like a turn. These are students who have come to stay over here.
So, we will feed the students every day. So, there will be maybe 3 students, 5 students. So, Monday you go to this house, Tuesday you go to this house, Wednesday you go to this house.
So, it is, it is quite, I was touched to hear that. So, in a sense, this is a part of our culture. Definitely part of our culture and that’s how all the students like used to go.
Like this day, this house, this day that house, this day that house and that’s how they all shared. So, previously like. It is a common system we are saying.
It is not just like my grandfather’s experience, not a special experience. It was a system existing in Indian villages for ages together because that was a sharing culture was there. And what happens is after industrial revolution, the people have started like thinking what is for me.
But before that, they always thought in like how I can share my things with others. So, just to conclude this point about philanthropy. So, if I understand right, Prabhupada’s concern, when Prabhupada spoke something sometimes negatively about, about philanthropy, it was primarily, it was the idea that philanthropy alone will solve the world’s problems and there is no need for spirituality.
Like manavseva hi madhavseva hai. So, the idea is that there is no need to do madhavseva. We will just do humanitarian work and there is no need for devotional outreach or devotional connection to be established.
So, his criticism was not primarily for helping people at a, in a charitable way. It was like doing only that and thinking that this will replace spiritual, spiritual outreach. And when he was concerned about devotees doing it, his concern was that we shouldn’t become just mundane welfare workers who and that consume all our energy and we don’t do any spiritual outreach.
But what you are doing is, it’s organic. So, in a sense, when we help each other, we can’t help somebody. We can’t rigidly separate, you know, I care only for your soul, I don’t care for your body.
We care for them holistically and they also reciprocate. Am I understanding right what, what the vision over here is? Yes, yes, exactly. Our prime focus is spirituality.
At the same time, whatever is necessary, we need to do because you are staying in a village and your neighbour comes for a help. Any neighbour will help it. Just like I remember when I first day I went to the farm, which was there, it was just like a wild forest was there.
So immediately, like my neighbour, he put a pipeline for us, gave us like, OK, you are staying here, so I will give water to you. And then he would ask whether you have anything, whether you have like one time he gave wheat to us, like and all other whatever grains that he had in his house. So he was a very simple farmer.
But when he saw our situation like we are just beginning, he also helped us. Now, when I have a lot of facilities, then naturally, when there is a need for others, I do reciprocate accordingly. And they also reciprocate by participating in our spiritual activities like when the large council, they volunteer for different services.
And they bring some gifts like whatever they grow, vegetables or flowers for the offering for the deities. So all those things is like you need to stay in a village just like a family and help out each other when there is a need. Oh, beautiful.
So this is adding another dimension to it that if something is a part of the village culture, they naturally help each other. And if we go and stay in rural area and if we don’t do it, then in a sense, we are we are disrupting things over there. It’s not only not compassionate, but it is also disruptive.
So that’s what even as I said, even poor people are doing that for each other when there is need. So if we as if we have resources, we should also. That’s true.
So overall, the local people now. So you said there are different gradations. Some become some become devotees, some do services and some remain favourable.
Have we also got some hostility from some elements or not so much? To a certain extent, it will always remain because there are some people who don’t get their commissions or they don’t get their contracts for material supplies and all that. So in today’s world, there will be some people who will create trouble for you and there will be some people who will help you. So always these two kinds of people will always remain and you have to just live with it.
OK, so now when I thought of people becoming opposed to us, I was thinking more in terms of economic reasons is understandable sometimes. But one of the awards we got was also because of, say, developing ecotourism in a sustainable way. So now these awards we have got, are they for all this kind of reaching out to people and making them sustainable things or different awards are for different things? Different awards are for different things like one for green buildings, one for water harvesting system, one for agriculture.
So different subjects we got different awards. Oh, OK. And so now, but in a sense, people have been just by our being here, the local people also must have been benefited in some way financially also, apart from our directly offering help.
Just because now so many people visit and travel and so, you know, in a sense, I read about Mayapur. There’s a book about Hare Krishna’s in India. So they talk about how just by the presence of Mayapur, the whole place has developed quite a bit.
The same with Vrindavan also. When our temple came up, that part of Vrindavan developed quite a bit. So now these are already holy places.
But in a sense, this must be, there is no other reason for people to come here. But it is primarily because of us. A lot of people are coming.
So development must also happen that way, isn’t it? Yes, like a lot of activities goes on and naturally the people prosper around us and they get like a lot of service contacts and all those things. Yeah, that is like we are doing eco-friendly constructions and we are trained some of our villages in eco-friendly construction. So they go all over Maharashtra, even out of Maharashtra also.
And we are trained them to take the contracts for the eco-friendly construction work. So like that, plenty of villages also get. Amazing.
And so when we do all this at one level, people are, as a financially overall, they are benefited also apart from spiritually. But I was talking about opposition in terms of say, we do get religious opposition, not so much for other religions, but even people may have their own forms of worship. There might be some people whom they consider as God or they worship as Devatas.
So how receptive are they to worshipping, to practising Krishna Consciousness? And how do we deal with any potential conflicts or say their local festivals which go on? We are very sensitive to their needs and their faith. And what we do is like as we go to their house for say local festivals like Ganesh Chaturthi and all that. Because what happens is Jalmashtami, all of them, they come to visit.
Before Jalmashtami, we go to the villages, have Hariram Sankirtan and then we announce like this day Jalmashtami is there and kindly all of you come. So a lot of people from different surrounding villages, they come. And then we would like to reciprocate by visiting those villages in Ganesh Chaturthi festival.
So we visit them in that’s like a major festival in Maharashtra. As we go to the villages, so naturally like the immediately they will say like, so you have come kindly do some Kirtan. So then we always go in groups.
So then we have some Kirtan for the people over there because in Maharashtra Ganapati means if you go to any family, all the relatives and friends will be there. So like the whole family and relatives, everybody will be together. So in one shot, like you get so many people.
So then sometimes some places they just tell you to chant, some places they say you chant as well as you give some talk. And then sometimes like they say like the boy is going to college and he is facing difficulty. So then we can offer him the Krishna conscious advice.
So like this, we are able to build up a good rapport with them as well. So most people keep waiting. They know before Jalmashtami they will come and do some Kirtan and invite us.
And as we go there, then they will come to our villages. And in Ganapati festival, you can walk in any house without any restriction, without any invitations. And then they greet us nicely, we do Kirtan in their houses.
And then as per the situation, some places we give elaborate talk or sometimes we give a short talk. So basically when you do Kirtans, do they ask us to Ganesh Kirtans or we can do Hare Krishna and our Kirtans? It doesn’t make much difference for them. Usually we do Hare Krishna, like they just ask for Kirtan.
And in the village we can say like glorify Ganesh in Kirtan. So you say you are sensitive. That means when they are celebrating Ganesh worship, we don’t have to bring in the idea of who is supreme or whatever.
That is more of a like we are going to them, they have invited us. So that’s more for developing a relationship rather than specifically preaching about who is the ultimate object of worship. So Desh, Kaal, Patra, Visi and then accordingly we present.
Because we are relatively new here in this area. Now we are 20 years, but like we started this programme right from the beginning itself. So this is like now going and creating rapport.
So then what happens is that the family like their relatives will be staying at a different different villages. So we invite them to our temple. So they know us.
So naturally like when they come to our temple, they buy books, they take Prasad, they attend Kirtan. If the lectures are going on, they hear. So this is how like we connect them to our temple as well.
So it’s so important to actually know what is to be done when. So that means what kind of sensitivity I would say means. That is what to speak when or what is the purpose of a particular level of connection.
So as I say later when they read books and they come to us, they will naturally evolve spiritually. So we have never had in that sense any conflicts because of whatever they are worshipping before and what we worship, our Krishna worship. So we have avoided that conflict, isn’t it? Yes, we mainly we just say like kindly just add this Hare Krishna Mahamantra and then kindly visit our temple, kindly participate in our festivals and then naturally as they associate with the devotees, eventually the things become very clear to them.
So some religious like them, they read full Bhagavatam, they read full Sisi, they know what is what and they are the ones who are our advocates. So I don’t have to directly get into the conflict with others as you just make like few people who philosophically very sound and a local person in that local village when he speaks, then it has got a better effect. Amazing.
So it’s very, we are like enhancing their faith, we are not disturbing or damaging their faith in any way. And that’s beautiful. Now I read in Chaitanya Shiksha Amrit that Bhaktivinod Thakur also says that a Vaishnava can participate in three kinds of festivals.
One he says is the worship of Krishna and Vishnu, that is where the heart of the Vaishnava longs to be. But he says there can be other religious festivals. In that time Durga Puja was quite big.
And he says a devotee can worship there, a devotee can go participate in festivals. But a devotee understands that this is ultimately, that ultimately Durga gets a power from Krishna. And then he also says there can be secular festivals like say social occasions or local festivals and devotee can participate in that also as a matter of duty.
So what you are saying is, what you are actually doing has precedent in our tradition also, our tradition’s teachings. Now when we have all this going on, do we also have, like you said, programmes regularly going on in people’s places? And are the two well-coordinated? But you said that the mandi programme we do for people who are below the poverty line. So when we go to the same villages and do programmes, so do they themselves become the host for the programme or somebody else becomes? So are the two tightly coordinated or broadly coordinated? So like we have different devotees taking care of different preaching programmes from different levels.
So some devotees take care of like school preaching well. Some are focussing on the big villages and some are focussing on like to whom we are helping out and all that. So different network of different devotees taking care of different varieties of things.
There are few colleges also. So some devotees are dedicated for preaching to the youths. So whatever categories, we have different devotees who are taking care of that.
Okay. I was reading about the outreach levels. I heard that there are like almost 100 devotees who are taking initiation and there were 1000 people come for yatras and the whole yatra.
So it’s a substantial outreach happening. Yes. Amazing.
And there was one thing in that which you mentioned that there is also programmes for women’s empowerment. Now, what exactly does that mean? Because sometimes Prabhupada said that women should be protected and they should stay under the protection of a family member, a protective male family member. So women’s empowerment, how is that compatible with say what Prabhupada wanted? So what we have to understand is this woman empowerment is in the rural settings and in rural area.
Like if you take agriculture, 50% of agriculture work is done by women. So it’s like family unit. Some jobs are performed by main person.
Some jobs are performed well by the females. And then we have what like different cottage industries kind of things where we train like say 5 to 10 women come together and jointly they do some activity just like making jewellery or making some viyas for Diwali. Or they make from the gobar, the poor agarbattis or they make some bharata manjal, some powder for washing feet, all those sorts of things.
So by that they get all of them, they get small income, which and usually this simple woman, they use this income mainly for some health needs or sometimes for like children’s marriages. Or sometimes for like children’s education. So it’s not like the woman becomes independent of that.
And then usually what happens is the woman starts earning little bit. Then she gets more respect in the family and she gets like more same decision making of the families. And then they never become like sort of like independent of anything.
Actually then many times what happens is like male member if he’s addicted to different vices like drinking alcohol and all that. So this supplementary income which woman gets, she is able to take care of her family in a proper way. So these are like already different kinds of things that was naturally existing.
So we just help them how they can do that properly. And that additional income is usually used for the family needs. Okay.
So when you say we help them, we provide them the facilities or we provide them training or both? Trainings is like how you come together and then how all of you together can do some savings. And then how all of you come together. Then they discussed about how to take care of the health also.
And they decide like suppose in a group there are 10 ladies are there. And three ladies have some urgent things to work out. Now whom to give priority.
And then those who are taken loan, then how, what manner they should be paid. So all those kind of things we help them and some sort of documentation is also there. Because if they keep documentation, government gives a lot of loans or interest-free loans and so many schemes that are there for which they become eligible.
So when you say women’s empowerment here, it is not so much to something which is going to disrupt the family, but it actually help the family to function better. Isn’t it? So that’s what definitely happens. As many times what happens is if the male member is addicted.
Yeah, you mentioned that. Then when the woman has got some economic power, then she can nicely take care of the family. Husband also then understands the value of them.
And then the way they treat the women also becomes different. Okay. So in a sense, this is actually going to address many problems.
If the women are empowered in this way, the problems of say, what are domestic abuse or something like that. The woman also has, as you say, greater say in the life and things get addressed. So normally when we so I was asking that is this done by brahmacharis or grahasthas or do we have like female employees for this? Who does all this? We have trained female devotees to do this job.
And now, do we do all this through ISKCON or are we doing this through some sister concern? Govardhan Ecology itself is under ISKCON, isn’t it? Yes. So we do it like together only. All these activities.
Okay. So, so Govardhan Ecology, if I understand it is a farm community under ISKCON. And along with that, we are doing all these other activities.
And say roughly, if you consider the whole Govardhan Eco village, how much percentage of the devotees here are involved in this rural outreach? Is this like a major thing or there are multiple things happening in this small place? Multiple levels, many brahmacharis are involved in reaching. And as far as like my technical knowledge about agriculture sharing is done by like a team of almost 12 to 15 people. And the rise of devotees as well as non devotees.
And this is also a different team of 5-6 people. So this is all. All these are people employed by the Govardhan Eco village? Yes.
Okay. And their needs are taken care of through the CSR and other things like that? Yes. Okay.
So and say now if some of our audience wants to say if they want to know more about this, they want to learn more about it. Somebody wants to replicate this. Do they get all the information on the net or can they contact you? Or do you have like some department or some assistant who can help people learn more about this? So some information is available on our websites and for different queries like construction can be answered by some departments.
Sustainability, there is a different department. So if they can write it website, then they will direct it to different devotees who are concerned with those services. Okay.
So each of these is in its own way specialised and then you have particular people. Yeah. I could make out that.
And overall, you started by talking about Prabhupada’s vision. So has Prabhupada given specific instructions about how farming or say farm communities are to be developed or how rural outreach is to be done? Or it’s more like he has given the seeds and then we water them and then they grow. So you see the current success as a manifestation of like you started by talking about how Prabhupada had that vision and that vision.
So could you like draw a circle between say what was Prabhupada’s vision and how all this has manifested? That could be the concluding points. So Prabhupada gave various instructions for the farm projects in New Vrindavan, Gitanagari, in India, Hyderabad and other places. So one thing was like devotees those are staying on the land, they live sustainable life.
That’s like the one type of farm communities we can say. And then another farm communities where Prabhupada said like the farm communities can grow things and then supply to the city temples all the grains and milk. So different models he explained it.
So different farm communities will come under like different stress that they give. At the same time like in Hyderabad like Prabhupada wanted like we help surrounding farmers as well. So that’s how like we see our rural outreach is definitely like within the objectives of ISPAAN like bringing members closer to Krishna at the same time like how they will live a natural life.
So we have to teach like outside of ISPAAN like outside of a farm community at material level also we need to teach them how like they will do sustainable agriculture. Because today’s the whole the government as well as the agriculture universities corporations they are promoting agriculture which is not sustainable in long run. And that’s why Prabhupada knew it very well.
He wanted like agriculture plus cow protection there together and sustainable way we can do it. So we have to materially we have to teach them how they can do farming in a sustainable way. And at the same time we teach them the spirituality as well like how they can become obedient to the laws of Lord Krishna like how they can be lead the life as per the instructions that are there in Bhagavad Gita.
And Srimad Bhagavad Gita is only when people live God conscious life then only the chance like they can have a meaningful life. So both the ways is a need for them to be trained. Yeah.
Maybe just a couple of last questions. So in principle how like I talked about earlier there is a difference between say living naturally and living in harmony with nature according to Krishna’s guidelines. So how much in principle are say is your model anti-technology or pro-technology or what kind of technology do you say you talk about water harvesting at one place.
So how much are you say for or against technology? I say we use optimum use of technology appropriate use of technology because what I see that our farming project should help in outreach help in changing the lives of people and people come to Krishna consciousness. Through farm project we should be able to preach. So whatever is necessary we can do that because you could establish maybe a model which will be very not much technological these things but how much is your outreach.
So I think Prabhupada will be happy to see like more and more people come to Krishna consciousness at the same time more and more people become like convinced about simple way of living. They don’t work unnecessarily hard for acquiring the artificial necessities of life which actually they don’t need. And that way like simple living high thinking should be the main motto of the project.
Like you see that we have a Hungarian farm project and you can see like so many visitors they come and so many people who otherwise wouldn’t come to the temple to visit some projects. So like here also we are seeing we have a chapati temple and next to a chapati is a cathedral school which is one of the like a very prominent school in South Bombay and many eminent citizens like rich people children go to school. They never come to our chapati temple which is just less than five minutes drive but they bring their students here to go to the eco village almost every year and they learn about the natural way of life.
They see about agriculture and they see about the cows and biogas and other sustainable practises and in spite of like it’s a convent school and most of the staff is this thing still they come here and in the end like my students end up buying our books and understand about us. So that’s how I see like the farm projects also should become preaching models and attracts those kind of sections of the people who would otherwise may not visit a typical ISKCON temple. That’s remarkable.
Nearby school children coming here not there. So if I understand right the answer to the technology is that we don’t obsess over technology. Our purpose is not to go against technology.
Whatever is required we use it. Whatever the farmers require they may use it. The point is that they should become say at one level financially sustainable and they should become spiritually they should grow spiritually.
So earlier when you talked about the not using pesticides insecticide or other things that for example not using terminator seeds that is not primarily because it is technology and we are opposing it. It is primarily because that is not a way that is that is even economically sustainable what is because spiritually what is because ecologically sustainable. So it’s not opposition technology per se it’s more opposition to unsustainability.
It’s a very like if you talk about terminator seeds genetically modified seeds you are simply tampering with the nature and it is environmentally not suitable ecologically it is not suitable. It is toxic is going to be harmful and economically it’s also proven that it is disastrous because you see this situation of farmers in Maharashtra who are cultivating the BT cotton their land has become toxic and that’s the bed where you will find many farmers are committing suicide. So that’s why it’s a very harmful technology we can say tampering with the nature.
So those kind of it is absolutely unnecessary. Okay, so basic technology like you said roads being constructed there being electricity bore wells those kind of things if that’s what is that can make their life like needs and comforts that’s not a problem then. Yes.
Okay, so I think this is Prabhupada’s principle of Yukta Vairagya again whatever is required we use it in Krishna’s service. This is amazing Prabhu I mean and not only is it a whole universe of how the rural world and the devotional world can be married together. That’s what is universe has emerged through our discussion.
It’s amazing. Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom and realisations and it’s been very inspiring talking with you usually at the end of the talk. I try to summarise and then if you have any concluding words you can share is that okay? Yes.
Okay. So today we discussed about broadly sustainable living and rural outreach. She started by we started by talking about the various remarkable award that have been won and then you mentioned about the importance of eco-friendly link how it all started with Prabhupada’s vision right in the early day 1966.
We started ISKCON in the couple of years Prabhupada had in Vrindavan and so he wanted devotees to he wanted farm communities basically and then so he said that people devotees my person can live simple one acre of land and they can provide for all their needs. So now why would anyone want to do that for that we discussed about you just mentioned about what is wrong with today’s living. So we are in many ways destroying the ecology and what we are doing is not sustainable.
We talked about the hierarchy of needs then then comforts then luxuries then prestige you could say lifestyle products or something like that and then beyond that is greed. So need and even comforts can be provided for in nature reasonably. But beyond that when we start doing then we are exploiting Mother Nature and then that is unsustainable that is destructive and then we had this discussion about how is nature kind.
So you said how even weeds have value. They are not just something to be torn apart and then this utility of the various things in nature that cannot be perceived if there is an emphasis on monoculture. So when there is biodiversity then that the value of different things can be appreciated.
And so when agriculture becomes agribusiness then it becomes monoculture and then it is not sustainable. And it was quite revealing when you said that you started learning about how agriculture can be done sustainably. How people can live off the land when it today it seems that it is so difficult to live and people even commits suicide.
It is shocking to know that 28 people commit suicide every day. So then how is it possible? So you said that it is that knowledge is there but it is lost and relatively speaking it was lost just two centuries ago. Two decades, two generations ago during the Green Revolution, post-independence and pre-independence when the Britishers tried to improve our agriculture.
They learned from it and they were impressed that actually the Indians are doing much better agriculture. And you said that what is that 4 lakhs was it? 4 lakhs wheat, no rice or wheat. We have varieties.
4 lakhs varieties of rice. Rice that is remarkable. And then so we talked about how what knowledge was there within the country, within the farmers 2-3 years ago.
Through various places you have learned that and then you have created a resource bank or a team who can go and teach this to the local villagers. And so Mandi involves, they have say long term which is like say 3 years, 4 years like mangoes. Then medium term, a banana and guava and then short term like grains and flowers and vegetables.
So when they do all this then they make it sustainable. And then also it is remarkable that you could have different varieties of grains, same grain. And some will grow in lot of rain, some in medium rain, some when it is less rain.
So within nature itself there is, so in farming doesn’t have to be like completely be at the mercy of nature in the sense that whatever way nature does we can still be sustainable financially. That was and then you talked about this Mandi project where you go and train people and then that income has almost increased 20 times in less than a decade. And it was shocking to know that the people live something like 8000-9000 rupees a whole year.
And that’s a whole family. It’s unbelievable how much it is. And then we went to the, so how this outreach grows is we help them in various ways to make their life financially sustainable.
Then they don’t go away. They stay over there. Otherwise, even if we go and preach to them, if after four months of farming, remaining eight months they have to immigrate somewhere else to get some constitutional job or something, then we can’t even do outreach to them.
So when they live over there, at one level, as devotees, we can live on farms. So devotees can become farmers. That’s one way to have like farm communities.
Another way is that we can also have farmers who become devotees. And that is that is much bigger. That is, in one sense, scalable and replicable.
And that’s where we have had almost like thousand people coming for yatras, more than 100 becoming initiated. So within that, as we connect with them and help them practically, they come to our temples, they come to our festivals. We have local programmes going on over there.
And your basic criteria when you offer assistance to people is that they’re sincere. Sincere means they really want to improve their life. They’re committed to their agriculture work.
And then they grow spiritually at various levels, initiate devotees, doing volunteers or like well-wishers. And then we talked about the school outreach that the education standards is quite poor. And some of our brahmacharis help the children, say, secondary or higher secondary.
Then they were very grateful. They started participating in our programmes. And now we have over 1200 students every year coming for the Gita Talent Search exam.
That’s a brilliant way of actually teaching them Gita and also getting them to study and then come to the temple and get rewards. And you’re creating a trajectory for them for their spiritual growth lifelong. And they can join the youth forums and other places.
And through them, their parents and their teachers are also coming. And because we present the Gita as a book which can add value to people, make them better citizens, better human beings, better people. So you can address the worries about secularism and you can go to more schools.
And then we talked also about the concept about humanitarian work quite a bit. So you mentioned that rather than, say, blaming or complaining that some other faiths are converting, we can see that they are actually extending themselves and reaching. And if we do that, then why would people go over to some other faith? And then when we go there with respect to helping, then we talked about the difference between, say, charity and philanthropy.
The charity is more a natural human compassion. We gave several moving examples of how you said that people who didn’t have a home to stay, they are offering several bhakris to passers-by who are just stopped over there. So if we are in a village culture and we have been gifted things, then it’s natural that we should share with others.
And through this, it’s a part of our traditional culture. It’s a part of our even now present village culture that people help neighbours. And when we are a part of that, then people open their hearts to us also and they also become connected.
So philanthropy would be like an organised, institutionalised focus on material welfare without any consideration of spiritual welfare. But like Prabhupada himself wanted to feed the child who was hungry and wanted an nakshatra around the temple. So similarly, this is simple extension of, say, principle of charity within the rural setting that we are in.
And then you talk about women’s empowerment and how this is meant to help them so that they can take better care of their families, have a supplementary source of income. And in that way, their own family issues can be taken better care of. It can be empowered in that way, not to get it, make things disruptive for them.
And then lastly, we talk about technology. It’s the optimum. Where there is the technology is very disruptive and destructive economically, ecologically, like with terminator seeds, then we want to stop that.
And you discussed also about how you have this whole system set up by which they can themselves have seeds and then they can produce seeds, they can stock seeds. And that can also become like a source of income for them and a cluster of families. And so where other places, our purpose is not to be pro or anti technology.
It is optimum use so that outreach can happen. And whether it is here, when so many people, school children who don’t come to the temple come here. So that’s because they have opportunity to experience nature and certain technology, certain level of comforts, make sure that they can be here and do whatever it is.
Similarly, with respect to villages, if there is some amount of development happening, we are not opposed to that. Our focus is that while our focus is outreach and whatever is required to maximise that, we do that. And in a way, what Prabhupada told, we talk about three models of Prabhupada talking about, say, farm communities.
One is the devotees become self-sustained, grow whatever and live. The second is devotees provide things to the local temples from the farm. And third is you say Prabhupada in Hyderabad mentioned that you can help the local farmers also.
And that’s what you have been doing in a, I would say, amazingly successful way. And as I said, to conclude, a universe of the marriage of the rural, of agriculture, sustainable living and spiritual outreach has been done over here. Amazing.
Thank you very much Prabhu. You want to add anything or put any concluding words? Concluding words will be like our Lord Krishna stays in village. Vrindavan is village, forest.
So whether we like it or not, we cannot expect that. Srinivasa also appeared in Navdeep, that’s also village. So Nityananda also appeared in Ekachakradam, that’s also village.
Definitely the village life is very peaceful, very satisfying content. When you have food in abundance, actually, that gives you real security and time for Krishna conscious activities. And that’s what we wanted.
And whatever possible, we’ll just make a few humble attempts to put this. Jai. Thank you very much.
Thank you so much for your time. It’s been wonderful talking with you. Jai Krishna.
Jai Krishna.