01- Presenting Krishna’s message to a contemporary audience

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Sai Gaur Premanande. Wake up South Africa. Wake up South Africa.
You’ve been sleeping far too long. Wake up South Africa. Now come along and sing this song.
Wake up South Africa. Hare Krishna to all of you devotees. And Hare Krishna to our guest speaker today.
His Grace Chaitanya Charan. Please accept my humble obeisances and all glories to Prabhupada. My name is Ngozi Ngake Ndawonde.
And I have been honoured with the grace to lead everyone throughout this morning’s programme. So our guest speaker today, as I said, His Grace Chaitanya Charan, is a monk, mentor, and spiritual author. Seeing the current problems of stress, depression, addiction, and overall misdirection, he felt inspired to dedicate his life to the cause of sharing spiritual wisdom.
He travels all over the world, from Australia to America, giving talks on spiritual subjects in universities such as Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, and Cambridge, and companies such as Google, such as Intel, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. He is a prolific writer. He is the author of the world’s only Gita Daily feature, where he writes a daily 300-word inspirational reflection on a verse from the Bhagavad Gita.
Till now, he has written over 4,000 Gita meditations that are posted on www.gitadaily.com. His articles have been published in many Indian national newspapers, including Indian Express, Economic Times, and Times of India. If all this is not enough, he is the author of 25 books. So we are extremely, extremely honoured and blessed to have such a prolific speaker this morning.
Before we start, I would just like to go through a few house rules. Please kindly switch and keep your cameras on so that we may have a welcoming and personal session. All mics to be muted and to remain muted until quarter past South African Standard Time for questions and comments.
Please raise your hand to be unmuted and feel free to type your questions and comments on YouTube and Facebook or in the Zoom chat panel as we go along. And then at the end of the chat, they will then be attended to. Thank you so very much.
Chaitanya Prabhu, over to you. Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.
Grateful to be here with all of you today. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare, Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama, Rama, Hare, Hare, Hare Krishna. Thank you for inviting me today for this talk on the topic of sharing Krishna’s message with the Western audience or the contemporary audience.
I would like to start by asking all of you a question, which will help me focus what I’m going to speak because it’s a very big subject. So when you try to share Krishna Consciousness with your friends, with your family, with your social circle, what are the challenges that you confront? What is it that you find makes them hesitate or hesitant or even apathetic or even sometimes hostile to Bhakti wisdom? Any thoughts from any of you? OK, let me. I can I can go ahead, Prabhu, since everyone seems to be quiet.
So we’ll just give them some time to put stuff on the chat box. I see Sabyasachi Prabhu has said that he people normally say that it’s a foreign culture. Tokunoko has said that it’s the different gods.
And I personally, I concur with Sabyasachi Prabhu in a sense that whenever you speak about Krishna Consciousness, it’s received in a light that you are trading cultures that seem to be a very Indian thing for African body people. So it’s not it’s not easily received. OK, Mataji raised her hand.
I think she wants to say something. You can unmute yourself, Mataji. Hare Krishna.
I agree with what Nkosi is saying. It’s really people. It’s the anxiety that African people feel that they are losing their Africanness and their African culture.
And, you know, also it comes from a trauma of Christianity, of Christianity being imposed on Africans. And that history has traumatised the African psychology and emotionally that Africans are feeling that they are being stripped constantly of their Africanness. Oh.
So the fear is that are we going to be like another imperial culture that if we adopt Krishna Consciousness, then again, that’s another way we might lose our Africanness. Is that how, is that the same attitude, same fear? I’m just trying to connect the two. What you said with, so the fear is that first of all, this is a culture different from our own.
So why should we follow it? And in the past, we have followed some other culture or some other culture, some other which is already imposed on us. And that had unhealthy consequences, to put it mildly. So why take something up now? That’s an important point.
Now, that would apply to any tradition that might be trying to share. So any tradition that is not African, trying to spread itself. Sorry, I can’t hear.
It’s too faint. I think if all is available. But one other thing, Pabu, is that there’s a Christian influence around in Africa.
So they may worry about your liberation if you’re going to make it back to heaven. They think that you’re getting lost and you’re going to go to hell. OK.
So because Christianity has that exclusive attitude, that is the only way. So if you explore some other faith, then they may not go to, they may not be delivered. That is the only way.
That’s an important concern. So anything specifically about Krishna consciousness? Like one thing is the foreign culture in itself, but the different gods. When we say foreign culture, what are we specifically referring to? Are we referring to the dress, the food, the mantras we chant? Or what exactly do we mean by foreign culture or when people feel concerned about a foreign culture? Pabu, I see here that Bafana has said in the chat that they consider it as foreign and people hate it because they have an impersonal sense of who and what God is.
OK, so the impersonal conception also makes the idea of a personal divinity a little more difficult to accept. OK, that makes sense. Yes.
Actually, with Bafana’s point, I would add that the idea of God and an image of God, Christianity has been strong here and it has not identified God in a form. And so they think these must be man made. It’s idolatry.
So they think Hinduism or that is getting you into idolatry. OK. So I’m listing all these things and we will see how many we can address.
But are there any other major concerns? Tukulokha has said that another concern is vegetarianism. OK, vegetarianism as a practise seems to be to be too foreign, to be too difficult. Is it just foreign or is it too difficult? Is it means what is the concern about vegetarianism? It’s too difficult to follow or it’s too intrusive in their life or what exactly? She says that it’s because it is so foreign to them.
I’m guessing this stems from the fact that of recently in the recent history, Africans have become meat eaters heavily. So it becomes a foreign concept to understand a diet that or to practise a diet that has no meat. Oh, OK.
And OK. So these are some excellent points which we’ll try to address one by one. Now, I will take I had planned the whole presentation.
But since the kind of points which we have got are a little more specific, I will reorient it. Of course, I’ll take some of the points which I mentioned. Thank you for this broad.
Overview of the challenges which you are facing now. Now, I just so I’ll be sharing a PowerPoint which will be also I’ll be using as a whiteboard. That means in the PowerPoint itself, like a blackboard, I type some things that are required.
So let’s begin. So presenting Krishna’s message to a contemporary audience. That’s what we’re going to speak of.
So I’ll address four points. The need to respect people where they are. Not just think that they are objects for preaching, but first is we will look at Prabhupada’s quotes and other things to appreciate this point.
The need to respect people where they are. Then we’ll talk about how understanding how a tradition stays living. There is a living tradition and there is a dead or fossilised tradition.
So how does the tradition stay living? That will be the second point I’ll discuss. Then third will be the different modes of outreach. So our purpose is to do outreach, to share Krishna’s wisdom.
But deciding which mode of outreach works the best, that will be the third point. And then we will address some of the specific concerns if they don’t get addressed beforehand. So before I go into these, I’d like to start with how I haven’t visited Africa specifically.
I’ve travelled almost all other continents. Of course, not Antarctica. We don’t have any outreach happening over there.
But most of the continents. So I grew up in India in a pious family, religious. It was culturally religious, not spiritually religious.
And then I got my education in a prominent engineering college in India. That’s when I was introduced to Krishna consciousness. And for the first 10 years of my, my 10 to 15 years, almost of my spiritual life as a Brahmachari, I was trained in one of the most, we could say, rigid or conservative Brahmachari ashrams where I had very black and white ideas of what is Krishna consciousness and what is not Krishna consciousness.
And I would say that gave me a very strong foundation. But then from in the last 10 years, I have been travelling extensively. My spiritual master told me to, in 2008, I was always interested in writing.
So my spiritual master, His Holiness Radhanath Maharaj told me that you should learn to write for a westernised audience. Because if you learn to write that way, more and more of the world is becoming westernised. So maybe from around 2007-2008, I started reading about, reading various spiritual authors who are prominent in the world today.
Not so much to learn their ideas, but to more learn and to understand how they present their ideas. And then from 2014, I have been travelling across the world. Before the pandemic started, I was almost nine months a year, I was outside India.
So mostly in America and then Australia, Europe and other parts of the world. So over the years, my understanding of Krishna consciousness itself has, I would say, been radically revolutionised. Just by seeing how different devotees, different people from different parts of the world are making Krishna an integral part of their life.
While living in a way that would be very different from what I, as a conservative Brahmachari, born in a Brahmin family in India, would think of as Krishna consciousness. And then as I was doing this, as I was observing people whom I would never have considered Krishna conscious, being very devoted, my attention also started going more and more within our tradition, within Prabhupada’s books and within the previous Acharya’s books, where I found that what I had thought of as Krishna consciousness was actually just one version of Krishna consciousness. There are many, many different ways of being Krishna conscious.
So I would like to start. So why am I talking about the need to respect people where they are? Because generally, at least the idea I grew up with is, we have the truth and we just have to find the ways to give the truth to others, which is at one level true. But the underlying dynamic is that actually people are foolish and that’s why they don’t understand the truth.
So we have to, our intelligence is to make foolish people understand. But over the years, I realised that that was not the approach that Prabhupada had. Prabhupada respected his audience.
And yes, people may not be God conscious. They may have certain behaviours and certain habits, which we would consider highly anti-spiritual. But still Prabhupada also has many quotes where he talks about respecting people where they are.
So I’ll start with one quote like that. This is a long quote from a letter, which Ishla Prabhupada wrote for the devotees who were planning to do outreach in universities. So I’ll go, I’ll read out the whole quote and then I have some points explaining these quotes.
So after each of these sections, I mentioned I’ll talk four sections. The first is the need to respect people where they are. After each of these sections, we can have some reflections, some feedback.
If you would like to share any thoughts or have any questions and that way we’ll try to cover the sections. So Ishla Prabhupada is saying over here, now I want that we shall recruit more and more our men amongst the intelligent class of men. Now Prabhupada lived at a time when men was considered gender inclusive.
When Prabhupada refers to men, he refers to men and women, everyone. So because they are a little educated or they have got some wealth or fame or ability, so they will be sometimes little puffed up. But that is alright.
They deserve it. This is amazing. What is Prabhupada saying? Even if they are puffed up, they deserve it.
Now why do they deserve it? He is not saying they are God conscious. This is a very different approach from Prabhupada saying that Krishna is the one and everything else is zero. Everything else is useless.
Prabhupada is saying if they are educated or even if they have wealth or fame or ability, they need to be respected for that. They deserve it. Now we’ll see what it means.
So now Prabhupada is saying, now we shall have to learn the art, how to approach such higher class of men and attract them to apply themselves to this Krishna consciousness process of self-realisation. So Prabhupada is not saying now go and teach those higher class of men. Prabhupada is saying we will have to learn the art.
So he is putting the onus on us. So in one sense the topic which we are discussing is an example of what Prabhupada actually wanted us to do. He is saying that we have to learn the art, how to approach such higher class of men.
Now higher class, Prabhupada is not referring here to anything like a Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra, higher in that sense. He is considering higher in the sense of today’s world. In today’s world’s estimate, somebody who has wealth or fame or ability or education.
So fame could also be in various ways. Nowadays people are influencers on the internet. Just because they provide some entertainment and they have lot of followers.
So they may have fame. So Prabhupada says we need to learn the art, how to approach them. Then he says that requires much tact.
Now it significantly uses the word tact. So he is not saying that Krishna consciousness is this, just present it. And here he is saying it requires tact.
And we shall have to expect to meet all challenges by sharp minds. By sharp minds. So he is appreciating that these people, they have sharp minds, they are intelligent and they will ask questions.
So we should be ready for that. And not just give the answers but give the answers tactfully. So then Prabhupada of course comes back to the core principle.
But if you remain always absorbed in remembering Lord Chaitanya, how he converted so many intelligent people, even sitting for three days and nights to hear them speak without himself speaking anything. And if you remember how Krishna was so much patient to explain everything to Arjuna. So here we see Chaitanya Mahaprabhu when he interacted with Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya especially, he sat and heard from Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya for several days.
So this is about, rather than simply thinking people are ignorant, we understand what is the understanding people have. And for that we need to hear from them. And Prabhupada also gives the example of Krishna.
And even Arjuna was speaking like a fool. So even though Arjuna, if you see the first chapter, Krishna doesn’t speak a single word. And if you consider Bhagavad Gita is 700 verses.
So 700 verses is not a huge body. So out of that 46 verses is almost 1 15th of the time. Krishna allows Arjuna to speak.
And Krishna allows Arjuna to ask questions throughout. And then last part is, in this way, being always tolerant of others and appreciating their points of view, it will be easy matter for us to convince them gradually to join us. So this, I would say, everything that I am going to speak, if you forget everything, this is one key thing.
Appreciating their points of view. So we may think this is wrong, this is bad, this is immoral, this is anti-scriptural, whatever. No, but appreciating their points of view.
People have particular understandings for particular reasons. So rather than saying simply their viewpoint is wrong, we appreciate whatever is good in that viewpoint or whatever is good in what has brought them to that viewpoint. So I’ll explain this a little bit more.
But the idea is if we appreciate their points of view and we are tolerant of others, then we can convince them gradually to join us. So Prabhupada is actually putting the onus on us to learn this. So this is a letter to Balwant.
This is December 13, 1972. And in one sense, Prabhupada also in his first year in America, he left India in 1965 and he started his school in 1966. In his first year, Prabhupada didn’t have many speaking opportunities, formal talks.
But Prabhupada was very carefully, he would go for long walks, he would interact informally with people and he was observing American culture, trying to understand how American people think, how they live. In fact, one of his hosts, his first host actually was Agarwal family. So Sally and Gopal Agarwal.
They never became devotees in the conventional sense of the word. But what Sally Agarwal says about Prabhupada is that he was curious about everything. He wanted to… Prabhupada had never seen a vacuum cleaner in India for cleaning a house.
So he wanted to know how the vacuum cleaner works. He wanted to know everything about how things work. And another thing she said that Prabhupada was the easiest guest I ever had.
Now generally if we go to meet our relatives or friends, how many of them are going to say that we are the easiest guest they had? Now we will have a long list of, I won’t eat this, I won’t do this, I won’t do this, I won’t do this. Now Prabhupada, she said that Prabhupada would just chant Hare Krishna and he would cook for himself. I didn’t have to do anything to entertain him.
Apart from accommodating him, I didn’t have to do any adjustment to my life to have him there. So appreciating their points of view. Let’s elaborate on this a little bit.
So they deserve to be Pafda, Prabhupada says. So this brings the point that respect people for what they have achieved in their terms. In their terms.
Why in their terms? Because we may say that all these are just mundane achievements and they are temporary. Wealth is temporary, fame is temporary. Yes, it may be temporary in the ultimate sense.
But still achieving it requires talent, it requires hard work and nothing comes free in the world. So if people have achieved education, people have achieved wealth, people have some talent and ability. Respect them for what they have achieved in their terms.
In one sense, this is the way, this is also one way we are Krishna conscious. Because Krishna says, I am ability in people. So wherever some ability is manifested.
So if you consider the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says in 7.8 that I am ability in people. So whoever has ability, now they may not be using that ability in Krishna’s service, but they have that ability and that ability is a manifestation of Krishna. Or for that matter, if they have anything extraordinary, so Krishna says, I am the spark.
So or other, all opulences are a spark of my splendour. yad yad vibhutim mat sattvam shrimadurjitam evavah tattva devavagacchattam mama tejuam shi sambhava So actually if we say these are just materialistic people, they have no spiritual knowledge, they have no spiritual values, they have such terrible habits. No, they have achieved some things and if they are manifesting some ability, even if somebody is singing sensual songs or is doing whatever they are doing, but they are doing something well, that’s why people are attracted to them.
And to do that well, they need some ability. And that ability is a manifestation of Krishna. So that’s how we need to appreciate people.
So they deserve to be buffered up, Prabhupada says. Now the second point is learn the art of how to approach such higher class of men. So what this means is, we may be right.
I mean, I have studied the Bhagavad Gita, I have studied the Bhagavatam, I know what is the right thing to do. But just because we know what is right, doesn’t mean we know the right way to present it. Why is that? Because in some ways, everybody has their own language.
So generally, if we consider this way, language is not just means for communicating. Metaphorically, it refers to mode of thinking. So imagine right now, if I spoke this class, in say Sanskrit or in Hindi or in Marathi, in some of the Indian languages, no matter how logical and reasonable the class might be, it would make no sense to you because the language is different.
So now language refers to the means for communication, but metaphorically we can say that different people have different modes of thinking. So we need to understand how people think and then we can present it to them. And that’s why it’s important to talk with people, not talk to them and certainly not talk at them.
Talk at them means, we treat them simply as objects to be transformed by our speech directed at them. They are conscious people and nobody likes to be talked down to. I sit on a high pedestal and I give discourses to people.
In today’s world, at least many people don’t like that. So talk with people means that we understand where they are coming from. We understand our audience.
So one of the things I learned from my travels abroad, and I’m still learning it, is that I may give a class for 45 minutes, but before the class, when I talk with the organisers, I understand a lot more. And if I don’t have a talk, some level of talk with the organisers, I find that whatever content I am presenting, it’s not that effective, especially if it’s not a regular audience. That means if I’m speaking to devotees, then it’s quite straightforward.
But of course, every place, every temple, every centre has its own mood and its concerns also. But in general, if you’re speaking to a new audience, it’s important to understand where they are coming from. So talk with people.
And also, after the class, on Zoom it’s not so easily possible, online, but generally after the class, you spend time with people and we hear them. We hear them and that’s how we learn. So how do we learn this art? After a class, we ask the audience, you know, what point spoke to you? Or what point did you find difficult to accept? And when they speak and we let them speak, not that we see that as a threat or as a challenge, but we let them speak.
Then we will understand, okay, this point clicks, this point doesn’t click, this point evokes resistance. And that’s how we can actually learn this art out of how to approach this higher class of men. And then the last point I mentioned, appreciating their points of view.
So don’t judge, just judge their viewpoint from our perspective. As devotees, it’s very easy for us to label, this person is an impersonalist, this person is a demigod worshipper, this person is this, this person is that. So understand why they think the way they do.
Sometimes we just judge or evaluate their thoughts, but more important than that is understanding their thinking. It’s very easy to fix a label or this person is like this. But okay, they may be like this, but why are they like that? What part of that particular, somebody is an atheist.
I have found sometimes, actually it is easier to have a rational discussion with an atheist than a blind follower of some religious tradition. In fact, I would say that if somebody is an unthinking, even unthinking practitioner of Bhakti, they may have a particular conception, this is how things are done. And it’s very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with them.
Somebody might be an atheist, but they have done some intellectual homework, they have thought, they may have come to a wrong conclusion. A conclusion that there is no ultimate reality. But rather than simply labelling their conception, oh atheism is demoniac.
Well, rather than, okay, what about atheism do you like? And more often than not, it is not so much anybody people like atheism, it is they dislike religion as they have experienced it. So if you understand their thinking, that’s what appreciating their points of view means. It doesn’t mean we have to agree with them.
There are things which, there are absolute truths. If the Bhagavad Gita teaches we are not the body, we are the soul. And somebody says, no, actually there is no such thing as a soul.
We don’t have to agree with that thought. But okay, why does a person think like that? Appreciate their points of view. So understand their thinking.
And that can help us connect with them in a way that they don’t feel that we are talking down to them. We start, we have to earn people’s trust. We cannot presume that they are going to trust us.
And the way we earn their trust is by engaging with them where they are right now. So this was the first point I was going to make about respecting people where they are at. So one more point I’ll mention before we move ahead.
And if you have any reflections at this point, please feel free to share them or any questions also. I’ll be happy to address. But the key point I was going to make now is that quite often we think of things in black and white terms.
That okay, this person is doing this and this person is not doing, this person is doing XYZ and is not doing so and so things. But rather than simply thinking in terms of what they are doing or what they are not doing, we see a more God-conscious vision. So God-conscious vision of people means, sometimes we see that okay, this person is not chanting any God names, this person is eating meat, this person is doing this, this person is not doing this.
But rather than seeing it that way, we focus, God-conscious vision means, see God in other’s lives, not just in what they are doing or not doing, in relationship with God. That’s one way we often look at. Okay, does this person eat meat? Does this person do this? Is this person having unrestrained sexual activity? But rather than that we also need to focus on what God is doing in their lives right now.
So what God is doing in their lives means that just because somebody is not practising Bhakti or not practising certain principles, doesn’t mean that there is no super soul in their heart. God is still there in their heart and God is still acting in their lives. So even if they are following a particular tradition, even if they are atheists, just because they reject God, doesn’t mean God has rejected them.
Krishna is there in everyone’s heart. And if you try to understand people carefully, then we will be able to see how actually Krishna is acting in their lives even now. And if you start seeing, okay, this is how Krishna is acting in their lives, then you can say, okay, I can take this forward from here.
So this is not just a strategic thing. Just because we want to convert people, so we need to understand their way of thinking. It’s not just strategic.
It’s actually deeply spiritual. We understand that it’s not that Krishna starts acting in people’s lives. It is not that we begin Krishna’s actions in people’s lives when we give them a book or when we tell them to chant Hare Krishna.
Even before them, for many many lifetimes, Krishna has been accompanying them in their hearts and Krishna has been acting. So whatever understanding they have, maybe 90% of it is off from the perspective of the Bhagavad Gita. But 10% is on.
And that is Krishna’s plan in their lives. So what God is doing in their lives, if you start looking at it, in that terms, how God has shaped this person so that they have some aspect of receptivity toward Krishna. If you have that vision, then we will actually be able to authentically respect people where they are at.
Not just tactically respect them because we want to convert them. Actually we are not converting them. We are simply continuing and accelerating the plan that Krishna has for them by connecting them with resources that can take them forward.
This is a much more inclusive vision of Krishna Bhakti. So any reflections or questions at this point? Hare Krishna Prabhu. There was a reflection or comment in the chat box from Saradiya Rasa Devi Dasi.
I think they have said that Hare Krishna dear devotees, thank you for organising this class. It’s very informative. Thank you for that comment.
I noticed that. Can you tell me what you found informative about this? Was it the Prabhupada code or the analysis or what exactly do you find informative? Sarad, you can unmute yourself if you please or you can type it in the chat box in response to Prabhu. She cannot unmute.
I’m hoping that perhaps then she may contribute on the chat and then I’ll leave it to Prabhu as the lecture continues. Hare Krishna Prabhu. The host just needed to enable me to unmute.
So now I’m unmuted. So Prabhu, thank you very much for the class. I really find it very informative and also very inspiring.
And I think I just I appreciate it because for me, sometimes I felt in ISKCON that devotees create too much of this distinction between us as devotees. And then like, you know, the kind of degraded karmis. And I think if that is your approach is actually not very spiritual.
And people pick that up, that you actually feel that you’re superior and you feel that you’ve got to save them. So I really appreciated how you’ve unpacked how, you know, that is actually not the mood to approach people. True.
Thank you for saying that. It is, if people feel that we are speaking down to them, it certainly alienates them. So nobody really thinks that everybody needs help.
And in one sense, people are open to help. But before they are open to receiving any help, they want to see how we see them. In one sense, self-help books are big in today’s world.
People flock for motivational talks. People do people do like that many things. But while doing those things, they want to they want to see what is it? How are you going to treat me? So, yes, if we somehow come off as the holier than thou attitude, then it’s a lot of problems.
I’m sorry, Prabhu, I’ll just add, but I also appreciate some devotees always say that Prabhupada said we should speak very direct. And, you know, we should tell people, you know, what their mistakes are, etc. But the quote that you shared showed that Prabhupada was sensitive to the audience and wanted us to adjust to the audience.
Yeah. Now it is. Thank you.
Yes, it is true that Prabhupada did talk about being direct. But that was largely, if you see the confrontational direct talks of Prabhupada, this is right, this is wrong. That comes more in the zone of Prabhupada speaking to his close disciples during his morning walks.
Now, during his talks to new people, and especially if you consider the conversations which Prabhupada had with thought leaders, it was quite different. He would listen to them, he would have discussions with them. So, in that sense, again, like there is no one way of being Krishna conscious.
There are many different ways of being Krishna conscious. So, similarly, there are many different aspects to Prabhupada. And this quote, it actually, it was almost after 18 years of reading Srila Prabhupada’s book several times that I came across this quote.
And I have read Prabhupada’s letters, Prabhupada’s books, Prabhupada’s conversations. This is, I would say, such an important quote, but it is lost in many other things that Prabhupada has spoken, or many other things that are highlighted from what Prabhupada has spoken. That’s true.
Thank you. Yes, from Bapna’s iPad, this is dynamic and revolutionary. Thank you.
Happy to be of service. So, I presume when you say revolutionary, it refers to this approach of Prabhupada, talking about appreciating other’s points of view. Is that what you are referring to as revolutionary? You can type if you like and I think a couple of, yes, can be treated as equals, soul brothers and sisters, not some weaklings.
Yes, that’s true. You know, everybody needs help and we also need help. So, when we are offering help, it is not from a holier-than-thou attitude.
When I was in Texas, in America, I was going, now in America, Texas is a part of a Bible Belt, where there is quite aggressive evangelical Christianity. So, I saw a car bumper. It had a sticker on it.
It says, Oh God, please save me from your preachers. Oh God, please save me from your preachers. So, now the idea is God saves us through his preachers, but these preachers have such an attitude, save me from them.
I don’t want to have anything to do with them. So, that’s save me from your preachers. So, we don’t want to have ever that attitude.
Yes. Thank you for clarifying that revolutionary means we see others empathically. Yes.
I think there are a couple of other hands. Would you like to decide who wants to speak? I think Owa Khen Mataji’s hand went up first, so she can start. Thank you, Prabhu.
This has been so insightful. What resonated with me was recognising Krishna’s work in other people’s life and understanding that Krishna is always at work, even if, like you said, it’s a 1% visible activity, but to kind of connect with people, find out how God is working in their lives and take it from there. This is the most important to really, really always remember in whatever situation, however bad people are, whether they are heavy into drugs or whatever, there is, God is still working with them and in them.
And we have to take that. For me, this has been one of the most transformative understandings. When I became a Brahmachari, I left my family and I didn’t connect with them at all for over a decade.
And after that, as I matured, I started connecting with them and I started seeing that they’ve had so many changes in their lives. And I can see Krishna, I mean, I won’t claim that I have supernatural visions, but I can see how they are evolving, how their vision is changing, how their perspectives are broadening. So even if they are not conforming to Krishna consciousness as it is normally taught, but actually their consciousness is expanding.
And we see that as Krishna acting in their lives. So even if somebody is addicted to something, but if that addiction is making them feel the need for something higher in their lives and then that is making them more receptive, then that is also a step ahead. That is also a pathway to growth.
So, yes, thank you for sharing that. Yes. Senazo? Yes.
Hi Krishna Prabhu. I have a question. Yeah, sure.
So my personal interest in terms of preaching is preaching to people who are kind of spiritual in a sense, or who are religious, but not necessarily connected to Krishna consciousness, who are, I don’t know how to put this, people who are maybe colloquially spiritual, but not actually connected to Krishna in the sense of having a personal relationship to God. So people who might be practising in a religion, but who are sort of outwardly just sort of going through the motions of a practise, but are engaging in a personal sense. So in that way, my question is, how do you begin to, is it necessary for those people to converge specifically to Krishna consciousness in order to be more connected to Krishna? Because I feel like I grew up in a Christian household where my mom is a staunch Christian.
She has been a practising, active, kind of regulated Christian, and who follows a lot of the principles of Krishna consciousness, but calls herself a Christian, and wouldn’t ever sort of associate with Krishna. So I’m thinking for people like that, would it still be necessary for them to converge to Krishna consciousness? Or can it be sort of more an interfaith kind of dialogue where we’re sharing perspectives and realisations about Godhead from different spiritual traditions? I hope I’m making sense. Yeah, I think this was a topic which I was going to discuss toward the end because that was something to read, but let’s discuss it now.
Broadly, there can be, we could say, three approaches to spirituality. So I think you can see this. See the bottom of a mountain, this is material consciousness.
The top of the mountain is spiritual consciousness. And ultimately, top of the consciousness is love for God. And so now exclusivism is the idea that there is only one path up the mountain, my way or the highway.
And the purpose is to go to the mountain, but those who are exclusivists, they are attached more to the path than the purpose. And so this is one way spirituality is conceived. Many traditions, the Abrahamic traditions especially, they pursue spirituality in this way that it is exclusivist.
Now, if you conceive a pendulum, one extreme of the pendulum is exclusivism. The other extreme of the pendulum is pluralism. The pluralism is all paths are right.
Whatever you want to follow, that’s fine. But if I am at the bottom of a mountain, all paths don’t take me up the mountain. Some may take me half the way up, one third of the way up the mountain, bring me down.
Some may take me half the way up. Some may take me just here. Some may just take me round and round the mountain.
Some may take me actually down into a valley away from the mountain. So pluralism says, everybody has a right to believe what they want. Everybody has a right to practise what they want.
That’s true. But just because they have a right to believe what they want and practise what they want, doesn’t mean that what they believe and what they practise is right. There is a difference between having a right and being right.
They are two different things. So pluralism is not very spiritual, necessarily spiritual. It might be a political necessity in today’s world where mostly we are secular.
But spiritually, that is not what is going to be very conducive. So beyond that, there is what we can call as inclusivism. Inclusivism is, we understand there are many paths to the same purpose.
If I want to go up the mountain, there could be different paths up the mountain. It doesn’t have to be only one path up the mountain. And broadly this was Prabhupada’s approach.
When Prabhupada talked about Jesus Christ, he said he is our Guru. He had so much love for God that he was ready to give up his own life for the sake of God. So in that sense, Prabhupada was very appreciative.
Having said that, so once we understand this principle that Krishna Consciousness is actually not exclusivist. It is not that we say Krishna is the only way. That would be a misrepresentation of Krishna Consciousness.
But we are not also pluralistic. It is we are more inclusivist that there can be many paths to one purpose. The purpose is raising human consciousness, ultimately to the level of bringing them to God Consciousness, love of God.
So there can be different paths. Now Prabhupada’s approach when dealing with people from different faiths was at one level twofold. If somebody was for any reason committed to a particular path, then he would not generally challenge or shake their commitment.
So for example, somebody was a priest or a pastor or some kind of office bureau in a particular religious tradition. And then they came to meet him. Prabhupada would talk with them and try to make them more conscious.
So for example, with Christians, he would talk about meat eating and he would encourage them to move toward a meat free diet. So like that, whatever they are doing, if somebody is already committed to a particular path, now they may not actually be spiritual. They might just be culturally committed.
They might be ethnically committed, whatever it is. But if they are committed that way, then encourage them to explore their path deeper in a way that actually helps them rise in Krishna Consciousness. So in one sense, actually if you study the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness in a broad way, it’s not just about showing us a path up the mountain.
It also helps us get an understanding of the whole mountain. And then we can say, okay, in this tradition, these practises are acceptable and they can actually elevate people. And we encourage them to take those practises.
That’s how the audience, that’s how people can move up in their paths. So if somebody is nominally connected and not very seriously connected, then encourage them to explore Krishna Consciousness. And they may take up Krishna Consciousness also.
They may take up chanting. They may start studying the Bhagavad Gita. And whether they take up Krishna Consciousness in the external sense of becoming devotees, or they just become more God conscious in their practises and their tradition, that is something I think we can’t force it.
Ultimately faith can’t be mandated or legislated. Faith has to be individually awakened in the heart. So our purpose is to actually elevate people’s faith, not confuse them.
So if somebody is very strongly committed to say Christianity, and then, or say in the Indian context, if say, now I cannot go into details, but in India we have people worshipping different Devatas, different Gods. Now if somebody is worshipping Ganesha or Shiva or somebody like that, or Durga, or somebody is having a particular faith conception, this is not right, this is right. And if you get into an aggressive debate with them, and the end result is they start thinking that, no, every group of people, every religious group thinks that they are the best or they are the only way.
And this is also confusing. So I don’t want to be involved in this religious business because it’s so confusing. And I give it all up and become materialistic and atheistic.
Well, that has not helped them in any way. So if somebody is committed to a particular path, now some people, when they are missionaries, what their idea of mission is, they just keep going round and round at the bottom of the mountain, and pulling everyone down from the path by which they are going up. That is not what we want them to do.
If they are just at the bottom of the mountain and exploring upwards, now we can say, there are distinctive advantages of Krishna conscious path. We have the holy name which is an eminently potent resource for going up. We have a very clear philosophy in the Bhagavad Gita and the Vedic tradition.
So there are distinctive aspects of our path which can be presented. So just because we are saying that there are different paths up the mountain, doesn’t mean all paths are equally easy. Some paths might be more rocky, some paths might be more slippery, some paths might be thickly forested.
So like that, we can do a comparative theology where we present, we don’t have to say this is wrong and this is right. But rather we can say what are the positives of Krishna consciousness which make it easier. One of the strongest positives is that we have a much clearer conception of God as compared to any other tradition in the world.
So there are advantages that can be presented like that. But that would be my broad answer. I hope that addresses the question.
Are there any other questions at this stage? No Prabhu, we just have comments more than questions. I don’t know if perhaps you’d want me to read them out to you. Okay, I’m looking at them right now.
All right. Bhavana was just saying that the challenge still remains to be that the name Krishna is hard to communicate to people and that Christ is the order and the author of their lives. And transferring is still not easily acceptable because people are visioned into going to heaven and their way is Christ.
If not, that traditional person then considers their way as ancestrally bound. That’s a significant concern. And I think to address that, I will make some points.
But then I think the next part of it will also address it somewhat. Generally, when a person is committed, what is committed to a particular path? What exactly are they committed to within that path? Understanding that is also very important. Because when people practise spirituality, we might say this person is an impersonalist, or this person is this, that person is that.
But it’s rarely that simple. For most people, for example, the philosophy doesn’t make that big a difference. They may be in a particular path because of the social situation in that path.
They like the kind of people they meet, the kind of people they interact with over there. And that’s what attracts them. So it’s important for us to find what is it that is their centre, that is their shelter and address that rather than thinking that there is any one standard thing.
So rather than labelling people for their religion or their practises, we focus more on understanding what is it that is sheltering them. What is inspiring them to connect with a particular tradition? If you understand that part, then we can address their concerns better. So maybe I’ll come to that in a few minutes, toward the next part of the session.
But let’s try to understand at this point, when we talk about a tradition, what do we actually mean? So when we talk about a living tradition, there are multiple points in it. Generally we think of say, if we are to be faithful to Srila Prabhupada, faithful to Krishna Consciousness, what does it mean? We think whatever Prabhupada has taught, whatever is taught in the Bhagavad Gita, we have to share that. That is true, but there is something deeper in it.
If we consider this outreach according to time, place, circumstances which Prabhupada often talks about, Deshe Kaala Patra. So this is the vertical line up is the tradition. And so this tradition means in the past for thousands of years people have been practising something.
And then there is this circle that is there in the middle, that is the living tradition. How it is presented today. And then below is the contemporary culture.
So in India there is a contemporary culture. Not all of India’s contemporary culture is spiritual. So there is a contemporary culture in each part of the world.
So the living tradition is connected to the past by fidelity, by faithfulness. And the living tradition is connected with the present by its flexibility, by its resourcefulness, by its resourcefulness, by flexibility. So for example, right now, if we went back in time 50 or 100 years ago, or even maybe 20 years ago, the kind of class we are having would have been impossible because there was no technology available for that.
So actually to have a class means you have to go physically to a place or you can have a radio or whatever. 100 years ago none of that was possible. But we are having a meaningful discussion because we are flexible.
Even if we can’t all be together at the same place, still we can connect. So to connect with the contemporary audience, there is a certain amount of flexibility that is required. The flexibility can be with respect to language.
We speak in the language that people are speaking. It can be with respect to technology. We adopt the technology which is important.
But what we often don’t understand, with respect to language and technology, it’s common sense. But beyond that there are things like psychology. There are things like ideology.
So to understand people’s psychology and how can I connect with their psychology right now. Now most people may not say that I have an ideology or I have a philosophy. But they have certain way of thinking.
So how can we connect with their philosophy, their ideology right now. So that intellectual level of adjustment is required. And if you look back in our tradition, now in every tradition there are something called as conservatives and there are liberals.
And often there is a conflict between the two of them. So if the conservatives are more concerned about staying connected with the past, this is how it was done and this is how it should be done. And that’s required.
So going back to the previous diagram, the conservatives are concerned more with fidelity. And the liberals are concerned more with flexibility. That we need to connect with people and we need to adjust.
So both are required. For the tradition to be living, we need to be connected with the past, which is what conservatives focus on. And we need to be connected with the present, which is what liberals focus on.
So if there is too much being conservative, then what happens is there is fidelity, fidelity is faithfulness without flexibility. Then the tradition becomes like a museum exhibit. Oh in the past these people used to believe this and practise this.
But there is nobody doing this right now. So it becomes simply like something in the past which is available only in a museum today. So if only the conservatives hold sway, then soon the tradition will become not a living tradition but a dead tradition.
On the other hand, if only the liberals hold sway, that is flexibility without fidelity, then what will happen is eventually we will just become a part of the contemporary landscape. We will just become another cultural fad, a fashion trend. What happens is by fashion trend what I mean is that people are more spiritual shoppers than spiritual seekers.
Shoppers means when I go shopping, I like this from here, like that from there, like that from there. Now actually spirituality is not just about shopping, it’s about transforming, it’s about seeking. So if we are flexible about everything, then that will not work.
So what the balance is, there has to be a realistic blend between fidelity and flexibility. If both are there, then the tradition is a living tradition. Now the next part I will not go deeper into it because that will make us have to study the tradition deeply.
But I will just give some examples quickly that if you consider what our previous Acharyas have done, this dynamic we see in their lives, Bhaktivinod Thakur, he was the first person in our tradition to write books. So write books which are in the format of a novel. So nowadays novels are one of the most widely selling books.
But 200 years ago there was no such thing as a novel. There was playwrights and plays were written, but the idea of a novel has come out recently. And in our tradition, Bhaktivinod Thakur was the first person who wrote a novel.
He wrote Prema Pradeep, he wrote even some of his other books, Jaya Dharma in the format of a novel. So that was what was in vogue in Bengal in the early 19th century. In the 1900s, early 1890s, so he did that.
So he connected with his contemporary people by doing what was required. He took the message of the Bhakti text but presented it accordingly. Now if you consider Bhakti Sahasrao Thakur, he had something called as a theistic exhibitions.
Now theistic exhibitions were, he would hire a huge ground, one of the biggest grounds in Kolkata and there he would have half of the ground would be dioramas of Lord Chaitanya and his pastimes and his teachings and the remaining half was about science and technology and the latest developments in science and technology and the scientists and researchers, they would come and present their things and he would give them a forum to present those things. Now you may say, what is Krishna conscious about it? Well, there is nothing directly Krishna conscious but what happened is people came to see primarily that part but when they came to see that part, they came and saw the other part also. Okay, this exhibition has all these things, what else do they have? Oh, they have these dioramas.
So Bhakti Sahasrao Thakur did that. Theistic exhibitions was one of his main outreach projects and in those projects he connected. Now no previous Acharya had spent energy doing festivals and events where in one sense nothing mundane is being presented, in something mundane is being presented.
But he presented the mundane and the spiritual. So Vidhyamcha Vidhyamcha Yastadvedo Bhayamsaha. He was enacting the Isopanishad statement that we need knowledge about the material world and we need knowledge about the spiritual world to grow.
Now Prabhupada of course did many things to connect with the contemporary culture. One of the things he did was the Bhaktivedanta Institute that was specifically meant for scholarly and scientific outreach. No previous Acharya had actually dedicated a whole segment of the tradition for scientific outreach because science did not have that much currency and influence 200-300 years ago as it has now.
Now of course we could go and list of many ways in which Prabhupada himself was flexible. But this is an important point to understand that when we are connecting with people, there is fidelity to some extent but there is also flexibility. And unless both of them are together, we will not be effective in our outreach.
So understanding when to do what is important. If we have a black and white conception of Krishna Consciousness, then what happens is this is right, that is wrong and nothing moves ahead from there. Then we don’t really grow and we don’t help people to grow.
Because we may emphasise certain things which we may hold certain things as non-negotiable but those may actually not be essential for everyone. Now that brings me to the cultural part. Cultural part means now to become Krishna Conscious, how important is it for people to wear a particular dress, adopt a particular diet, adopt certain particulars which they see as culturally alien.
Well that is something which can vary. It is not a black and white thing. Because even in India, for example, Manipur is a state which became Gaudiya Vaishna from the time of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his successors itself.
And Manipur devotees had, Manipur is in the North East of India. Am I sharing the screen? I don’t think I am right now, isn’t it? Okay. So if I come over here.
Sorry. So when they were in Manipur, the devotees there had their own way of dressing, which is not exactly the dhoti kurta which is the dress of Bengal. And they didn’t have to change their dress to become Gaudiya Vaishnavas, to become followers of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
They just adapted the core principles of Krishna Consciousness. So is dress non-negotiable? Is it essential part of the culture? Well not if you look back at the culture itself. So Manipuris had their own dress.
Now it is one of the ironies. So Manipuri, we belong to a tradition technically which is called as Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. It is part of the prominent expressions of Bhakti.
So Manipuri Gaudiya Vaishnavas had retained their own dress, they retained their own dress while adopting Bhakti. Now what happened was, when Iskcon devotees went to Manipur and they started preaching in Manipur, many of these devotees were people who had practised Bhakti for 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, whatever. And they were interacting with people who had been born in devotional families.
They might not be chanting the same number of rounds exactly. But they were quite dedicated in their own way, quite devoted. And the devotees told these Gaudiya Vaishnavas that if you don’t wear dhoti kurta, if you don’t eat this kind of food, if you don’t do this, you are not a devotee.
That infuriated them and later on when more mature leaders went in that area and then they adapted. So that’s when things worked out very well. In India also, there is a lot of aggressive Christian conversion that is happening.
So now when the devotees went in the tribal parts of India, interior parts of India where still there is not much progress. So Christian conversion is happening very aggressively. And devotees went there with the saviour complex, you know, we will save people.
But when they tried to get people, the tribals to start adopting all the cultural aspects of Krishna Consciousness, some of the local activists from those tribes and cultures, they said, we see no difference between Christianity and Krishna Consciousness. Because when we become Christian, we lose our culture. And even when we become Krishna Conscious, we lose our culture.
Because India is a very broad country, very big country. So tribal outreach in India, now it has adopted a much more sensitive approach. Where we say, you know, you can speak your own language, retain your own dress and cook and eat your own food.
But of course, food means not meat. If you want to become initiated, there are certain regulations to be followed. Respect broad aspects of tribal culture.
So that’s when actually tribal outreach started happening significantly. So like this, there are, it is up to the responsible, thoughtful leaders of a movement in a particular area to understand, you know, what we can be flexible about and what we need to be faithful about. What we can’t change and what we can change.
What can be adjusted, what can’t be adjusted. So, of course, there are core principles that can’t be changed. And what can’t be changed, what can be adjusted, that is a matter of discussion.
Careful deliberation, prayer, experience, that is a big subject in itself. But the principle is that Krishna Consciousness is not something non-negotiable. Do this or you are out of here.
There are many aspects of Krishna Consciousness, which are adjustable and that adjustment, this is a, I’ll conclude this point with this that, seeing adjustment positively. So, adjustment is not compromise. It is compassion.
It is not compromise. As soon as you think of compromising, you know, you are doing this because you are pandering to people. No, it is compassion.
People are coming from a particular background. People have particular ways of living. People have particular ways of thinking and functioning.
Do we really, is it reasonable to expect them to give up everything that has grounded them in their lives till now and reject it all for the sake of practising Krishna Bhakti? Well, is Krishna making such stiff demands from people? No, Krishna gives, if you read the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna offers multiple levels of connecting with him. In Gita 12.8 to 11, Krishna offers multiple levels at which you can connect with him. He says, you try to do this.
If you can’t do this, then you do this. And if you can’t do this, you do this. So, Krishna himself is offering a multi-level approach.
And we see Krishna’s mood in the Bhagavad Gita is that, so Krishna in the Gita, especially when he says 4.11 in the Gita, what does he say? 4.11 is basically all people are on my path. All people are on my path. When I said that earlier that try to understand how God is acting in people’s life, that is based on this, all people are on my path.
What this means is Krishna’s mood, we could put it this way, that from your place, at your pace, access my grace. So, what Krishna is saying over here is, from your place, at your pace, access my grace. This is Prabhupada’s mood actually.
He didn’t even introduce the regulative principles initially. So, just come to the kirtans, chant, dance, sing, take the prasad and access Krishna at that level. If you do that, you will grow by that.
So, this is actually the mood of compassion. So, when we have that compassionate mood, then we can adjust things while knowing what is unadjustable and we can help people grow, go forward from where they are at. So, any reflections or questions on this point? Ok, there are some good comments, some sadhya, some other that, the Usa house often incorporates traditional African garments in their attire.
They are devotees but still grounded in their cultural roots and it’s probably more attractive and inspiring to local people. Yes, I would say, His Holiness Bhakti Teertha Maharaj was also a pioneer in this. When I had gone to America, I visited one of the IPAS centres and they have a whole wardrobe of the various dresses that Maharaj would wear while connecting with people from different backgrounds.
So, yes, it’s an example of resourcefulness and that’s also a part of our tradition. Thank you. So, any reflections or questions at this point? I would like to ask Prabhu that, you know, you made a very beautiful point and showed that slide of flexibility and fidelity.
And how do we get that idea across more systemically in a yatra where there is maybe a tendency to lean more to the cultural expression which is Hinduism and not much space to allow other cultural expressions to come into bhakti. Yeah, how can we, if somebody has particular emphasis. In one sense, I find that we as a movement are facing a significant challenge which we need to negotiate very carefully.
I’ll start this with a metaphor. At one time I had severe digestive problems and I also had severe iron deficiency. And the medicine that I got for iron deficiency accentuated, worsened my digestive problems.
So, the cure for one disease or one dysfunction was the cause of another disease. So, it was a catch 22 situation. It was almost like an irresolvable situation.
And then the way I decided to deal with it was to do a piecemeal approach. And I decided I’ll not worry about my iron. I’ll work on my digestive system for 3-6 months, focus only on treating that.
Once I got that in order, then I decided to focus on my iron deficiency issues. So, once my digestive system had recovered, then it could cope with iron medicine also. So, why am I referring to this example is that our movement in one sense is serving different purposes for different audiences.
So, what I mean by different purposes for different audiences is that for many Indians it is a cultural home. It is a cultural home away from India. And in that sense it is serving a very very important purpose.
And to the extent it is serving that purpose as a cultural home, they want to and they need to keep the cultural elements intact. Without that they won’t feel that this is a cultural home at all. And so, for example, Indians, when they are outside India, they have a lot of concern about how to ensure that their children continue to at least have some semblance of the values that they had in their own childhood or in their own family.
And if that is what is bringing people to Krishna, then that is what is bringing them to Krishna, then they will want to see the cultural aspect. Okay, this is a place where this is, in one sense, they are not just seeking Krishna, they are seeking India over there. And India is, of course, much bigger than Krishna.
So, then what happens is, if that particular, if certain rituals are not practised in a way in which they were done in their homes, then people feel that I am not really interested in this. This is not serving my needs. So, what can I do at this point? Well, I have to make sure that those needs are served.
And I will find out whatever way they can be served. So, here I will show you a diagram. Let’s see if it comes through.
See, our spiritual centre ultimately is Krishna. We all are trying to approach Krishna. But different people come to Krishna through different sources.
Somebody might come through cultural, sorry, the intellectual. That means they have existential questions about life. That, what is life meant for? Who am I really? What happens to me after death? Now, for such people, the Gita’s wisdom and philosophy and the broad philosophy of the Vedic tradition is very valuable.
So, when such people come to a temple or come to a centre, the primary thing that interests them is the talk. If the talk is very predictable, the talk is very typical and stereotyped, then they don’t feel inspired to come. Because their primary connection with Krishna, I am showing the arrow going outside means, for them Krishna is manifesting primarily through the intellectual aspect.
Krishna is attracting them through the intellectual presentation of bhakti. For some people, it might be emotional. That means just come to a spiritual place and you feel very good.
I just feel some vibes over here. I feel peaceful over here. Or there is some meditation going on.
And sometimes a musical meditation, sometimes can be more softer meditation. It just makes me feel so peaceful. Now, so when they come to a place which is very peaceful and pacifying, then that’s what is attracting them towards Krishna.
For some people, it might be relational. Relational means they feel that these devotees are good people. These are like kind of people I want to hang out with.
They are pleasant, they are kind, they are trustworthy, they are living a life of principles. I want to be with these people. So it is, they want a bigger sense of belonging.
This is one of the main reasons why people want to be spiritual is they want to belong to some community. Our modern lives are becoming very fragmented. The families are fragmenting, the communities are fragmenting.
So they come here primarily for relational purposes. Now all of these are not black and white because relational and emotional can also be connected. But there is certain difference between the two.
It’s a matter of emphasis. And cultural means that some people come because they like the cultural aspect of it. Oh, you know, I can see the Lord being worshipped, the Aarti being performed.
I can see this being, this is how I saw this in my childhood. This is how it was done. And now far away from India or wherever I am, I can see the same things being done.
So now, whatever it is that has attracted us to Krishna Consciousness, that is what we want the most. So if somebody has, for example, come from a relational perspective, they just want people with whom they can connect with, then if they find some devotees behaving in a judgemental way, in an angry way, in an impolite or rude way, that shakes their foundation. So that shakes them.
How can you behave like this? Yeah, you know, devotees also have conditionings. Don’t take it so seriously. Neglect those devotees.
But for them, that is the foundation. Krishna is not directly the centre right now. Their centre right now is relationships.
And when that is shaken, they just can’t bear it. So similarly, somebody who has come from a cultural perspective, for them that is the foundation. And if they see something is not done the way it was done in the past, they say, I can’t accept this.
How can you do like this? That shakes them too much. So what we need is that, so I give the example of this disease. The point I was making through that is that many Indians come because of the cultural aspect.
And that’s what they need. These are the kind of rituals we practise. Now the word rituals has a negative connotation.
But this is what we did in India. This is what we want as a cultural home. Now that is a valuable need.
And through that also they are becoming serious about Krishna consciousness. But many non-Indians who come to our temple centres, for them the cultural is not the attractor. The cultural is primarily the thing that causes hesitation.
That is what causes apprehension. So that’s why the cure for one disease is the cause of the other disease. So what attracts Indians is what repels non-Indians.
So now how central is the cultural for the spiritual, for Krishna? Now many Indians may find that if some devotees come to a temple in an attire that is not traditional, that is maybe inappropriate, revealing. How can you come to a temple like that? Within an Indian context that would be unconscionable, that would be unacceptable. It’s just not done.
But if somebody is coming to a spiritual place, they are coming there primarily because they just want to feel peaceful. They are so disturbed in their minds, just want to go to a place where I can be peaceful. So they are coming from the emotional perspective.
Now they may not even be aware of what kind of dress I am wearing. My life is a mess and I want some relief. I want to go here and be peaceful.
And there at that time, why are you wearing this kind of dress? Don’t wear this, wear this. I am already agitated, you are giving me one more cause for agitation. Why should I come here? So for them it comes off as very judgemental.
Many things like that. There could be small dress, could be just for example. Many things like that can come off as judgemental.
So I don’t know what is the solution to this. At least I feel initially it’s just separate. That means outreach to Indians and outreach to non-Indians can be done through separate avenues.
Eventually there can be integration where once the devotees are little more mature, the Indians also, they start moving from the cultural to the spiritual, to Krishna. And they start saying that the cultural is not the only way to Krishna. Somebody might take the intellectual way to Krishna.
And then they may adopt the cultural after a long time. Or they may not adopt it much at all. But they are using the intellectual route to Krishna.
Some people may use the relational route to Krishna. So relational route to Krishna, would mean that they focus more on spending time with devotees. And they want to understand, they want to connect, they want some counselling, some guidance, just some human connections.
And they don’t want to feel judged. They don’t want to feel rated based on certain practises that they are doing. They will say ultimately we want to have all these approaches toward Krishna.
A serious devotee has strong relationship with various devotees. A serious devotee adopts many of the cultural practises. A serious devotee studies the philosophy.
And a serious devotee also behaves in a way that is emotionally sensitive. A devotee finds peace and shares peace. But not everybody will be, this won’t be 25%, 25% for everyone.
Even when somebody is a committed devotee. For some of them the intellectual might be 80% and the remaining might be 5-5-5%. For somebody the cultural might be 80% and the remaining might be 5-5-5%.
So what happens is, we need to provide for people all these ways of coming to Krishna. And whether all these can be provided in one centre, maybe it’s possible. But it is quite difficult.
So the solution I see is that initial stages at least separate it out. So there is a letter of Srila Prabhupada where he wrote to the devotees in New Zealand. When he was doing outreach and he said, people here are quite intelligent.
Don’t start a temple over here, start a library and start a reading group over here. So create a place where people can comfortably sit and read our books and discuss those books. So, Hare Krishna, it seems that we’ve lost audio.
Or is it just on my end? I think it’s currently off and maybe he’ll pop back in. Let’s see. Otherwise it’s like a massage.
So for the mind, who is just like a genius and such a soul. So I can wait eternity to hear. Let’s just hope he’ll be back with us.
I think he’s shedding some beautiful light on the intersections of culture and Krishna consciousness. How we go about navigating that because I know that it’s something that I’m thinking about and always experiencing. Yes, a people-centred approach.
It’s like you really have to be sensitive to the individuals and try to make it easy for them to come towards Krishna. And I think it’s really coming across so well in the whole presentation. Sorry.
Oh, sorry. I’m speaking in a meeting. I’m saying that I’m acknowledging Saradiya’s raised hand.
You can speak, Mataji. Thank you so much for organising another very inspiring, relevant session. I really appreciate that you are doing this every week.
So I just wanted to say what I find interesting is how he has really thought about this very deeply. And as he explained that different devotees come to Krishna consciousness for different reasons. And it might be a good idea to have different programmes and spaces for them.
And I think that is good for us because then we can somehow just make peace with it. That we might not be able to accommodate everyone and everyone’s need in every space, but that is all right. So I think that for me, that is good just to have that.
We can acknowledge this difference, but at the same time, we can acknowledge that that difference isn’t a problem, but we just find a solution how to deal with it in a constructive way. Because I think that’s very relevant for South Africa’s kind of, you know, devotee, the diverse devotee congregation that we have. Yes, you see Chetan and Pabu, having interacted with him, you understand the broadness of his approach.
So it is exactly whom we had to hear from. So I think Pabu is back. And so I was showing that diagram.
And the point I was making is that I did you hear that point about Prabhupada in New Zealand, where as Prabhupada started a library rather than a reading room and library rather than a temple. So the point is that overall, at least initially, we may want to have centres that focus on particular pathways for people to come to Krishna. So maybe for Africans and for Indians, there might be different pathways that are required.
And eventually, as people become more centred on Krishna, that two pathways can be integrated. Does it address the question? Yes, Pabu, beyond my happiness. Thank you.
You see, there is something in the chat. Yes, there is a question on the chat group, Pabu, from Kamanya Mataji. I don’t know if you will read it for yourself or I can read it to you.
Yeah. Was it about the technicality that’s fixed? You can read out the question on the phone. It’s a little difficult to see.
There is some more if you go up and go see. Okay, thank you for this important topic. That’s the point, I think.
Yes. Regarding separating the congregation from the guests, new people, was the Sunday feast not established to be an outreach programme? But in actual fact, it has become the weekly gathering for the congregation. Yeah, in one sense.
See, okay, this is Ayesha had the PowerPoint, but let me explain this. That our movement began as a missionary movement, where the focus was largely to become a devotee means to move into the temple. So to move into the temple.
And those who were in the temple, they were attending daily Bhagavatam classes. They were also attending evening Gita classes. And in that situation, the Sunday programme was for new people.
So new people were defined as people largely were not staying in the temple. Because if you became a devotee, you started staying in the temple. So in that situation, the difference between devotees and new people was very clear.
Devotees are those who are staying in the temple, and new people are those who are visiting the temple. And the main time for visit was the Sunday programme. So, in fact, the idea at that time was if somebody leaves the temple, it’s almost like they’re falling away.
They are falling away from Bhagavatam. Now, our movement is not temple based so much. Most people are not monks or nuns who are moving into the temples and living there.
Most people have their own lives. So because of that, if you consider this was temple life, and these were newcomers. So Sunday feast was a programme where the newcomers would come to the temple.
But now our movement has come to a place where mostly, most members are already congregation members. So they don’t come for the daily programmes. So for them, the time to visit the temple usually is the weekend.
So then what has happened is the Sunday programme has become an avenue for the Sunday feast programme. It has become a forum for the congregation devotees to congregate in the temple, to come together. And then because many of them are already devotees, at least in a particular sense, so they don’t want to hear the kind of stuff that is spoken for new people.
Because we have heard this so many times. This is just basic. So now for the congregation also, there has to be a forum where they can come together.
So what do we do? Some temples, for example, have two Sunday programmes. So in India, there are several temples where the congregation primarily comes for the Sunday morning Bhagavatam class. And the Sunday feast is more for new people.
So we have two programmes on Sundays because Sunday is the holiday. So most of the congregation, those who are serious devotees, they may not attend the Sunday feast programme at all. They attend only the Sunday morning Bhagavatam where the classes are much deeper.
They are for devotees who have been practising for 10, 15, 20 years. And they are more nourishing devotionally. And then new people come for the Sunday feast programme.
But that has also raised some opposition because Prabhupada said the Sunday feast programme should be the central programme. So how can congregation devotees not come for Sunday feast programme? But then people have their own life. So if somebody comes for Sunday morning Bhagavatam and again comes for Sunday feast programme, the whole weekend is going and they have their family responsibilities.
They have other social obligations. How do they manage that? So in that sense, we could say the Sunday feast, we as a movement have to define what its purpose is and who is it serving. So again, the solution will probably be separation.
That have a programme for devotees to come together and have a programme for new people to come. Many places have started Saturday feast programme or a Saturday festival programme where Saturdays are for new people and Sundays are for temple residents. So again, because our movement has moved to a different place demographically, so the Sunday feast purpose has to be re-envisioned.
So we are, we could say, in uncharted territory as compared to what was in Krishna Prabhupada’s time. And that’s why things have to be adjusted. Prabhu, there is one question that actually came in earlier on that I see as most of the questions are coming in the chat box.
The chat box rather might have slipped through the cracks. So it actually comes from the WUSA admin team. So the question reads, with the rise of cannabis consumption as per the legislation of the herb in mainstream culture, what is your take on its use by those who have formally taken to the path of bhakti or those who are practising somewhat over a considerable period of time? I got the part about capitalistic culture.
I also got the part about those who are practising bhakti, but are you posted about? Maybe I can summarise the question. So the question is basically asking about cannabis. So marijuana, since it’s becoming very popular.
Can you hear me, Prabhu? Yeah, so the question is about cannabis. Yes, the question is, yes. So now, again, it is a little more complicated than what we normally think it to be.
Often we say that drugs are like initially when Prabhupada joined, it was a counterculture and people were taking drugs. People were taking drugs and Prabhupada said, you know, you can’t go high by drugs. You give up the taking of drugs and practise bhakti, which is definitely true at one level.
At another level, it’s also important to understand that the idea that the spiritual can become more accessible through something material is not alien to our tradition. So, for example, when we take prasad, prasad is at one level. We take sanctified food, the food is itself material, it’s made by a process.
But it’s not just a sanctification. We also talk about foods themselves being in the modes of goodness, passion, ignorance. So can certain food items make us more receptive to spirituality? We could say certainly that what we take into our body affects us.
The most graphic way we understand this is if somebody takes a sedative, he’s going to sleep. So it’s a substance. You may take a pill or you may take an injection.
So now when we go to sleep, we are becoming unconscious. So a physical input can take our consciousness down. So that’s the principle of intoxication.
Now, it’s clear that physical substances can take our consciousness down. So can physical substances take our consciousness up also? Well, why not? If they can take it down, they can take it up also. So we ourselves may experience that certain foods may energise us more.
Now, of course, you can say that energization is temporary. Like when people are feeling sleepy, they may take caffeine and they may feel they may take coffee and they may feel more energised by that. Their sleep goes away, their lethargy goes away.
Now, that has its own harmful health effects in the long run, just to be acknowledged. So if we consider the mode of ignorance, the mode of passion, the mode of goodness, then there is transcendence and then there is Krishna. So I would say Krishna exists at the summit of transcendence.
So there are five levels, ignorance, passion, goodness, transcendence and the summit of transcendence, Krishna. So certain food items can raise people’s consciousness by which they become more receptive to spiritual insights. Maybe they feel their mind is becoming clearer.
And now, having said that, so within our tradition, there were stages, especially in the Shaivite tradition, they would take ganja and cannabis is considered in some ways like ganja, some ways different. I won’t go into specifics over here. But the idea of taking substance, the idea that what we take physically affects our consciousness is intrinsic to our tradition.
It is obvious also in terms of certain substances taking us down, taking our consciousness down. So certain substances may take the consciousness up also. Having said that, the possibility is there.
The possibility is fraught with many dangers. One danger is of course that a person may get addicted and they may go from something which is relatively harmless. Substance addiction can go from something harmless to something far more harmful.
In fact, in America, drugs are epidemic. They are a national emergency in many parts of the world, many parts of America. And the way people get hooked to drugs is often a very harmless way.
That means they may have some very painful surgery. If somebody falls and has a thigh surgery, then people are given some pain medication for that. And the pain medication makes them feel good.
Eventually they keep taking the pain medication even after the pain stops because it makes them feel good. And that’s how they develop dependency. So the opioid epidemic, as you rightly pointed out, that is true.
So now the opioid epidemic doesn’t always result because people went out of their way to take drugs. It may start by simply taking prescription pills on which people become dependent eventually. And they may become terribly dependent so that the possibility of spiralling down into addiction is there.
The danger is very much there. Then secondly, for people, they may get some high through certain use of certain substances. But that high may lead to even if it doesn’t lead to addiction, it may have destructive physical consequences in the long run.
It may just affect the body negatively. Thirdly is that through such substances, though somebody might get spiritual insights, they might get many other things which are not spiritual insights. Just hallucinations.
So knowing what is actually a spiritual insight and what is just a hallucination, what is just a person mistaking something to be a spiritual insight, that is quite difficult to discern. So we could say that if somebody claims to, somebody is habituated to taking it, and somebody claims to have become spiritually more receptive or spiritually more, they’re getting insight through it. I don’t think we need to reject or condemn that, at least in the initial stages.
Because if that’s what has brought them to explore spirituality, then it’s fine. But if you contextualise it, explain it, so explain the challenges, the dangers within it. So what bhakti yoga offers us is a pathway for gaining spiritual insight, which is free from these hazards.
So in one sense, substances can become more spiritually receptive, but there are also many dangers associated with it. And in the tradition, yes, there were sadhus who would take ganja and other stuff like that. But those who did that often did themselves would become degraded at times.
And that’s why that was only one, if at all ganja or the substances like that were taken by some shayawats, that was only one part of that spiritual practise. There would also be austere sages who would do austerities, fast, chant the names of Shiva or whatever. So that might be if that is one part of a spiritual practise.
That is, I would say, that is what it was in the tradition. And there is a significant level of safety in that because all the other things that they were doing, they are scripture based, they are also purifying them. They are also making them more spiritually receptive and giving them spiritual insight.
So drugs alone, I think it is hazardous. There is a potential and if you dismiss that potential, you can alienate a lot of people. But if you don’t contextualise and explain the dangers, then we may be, we will be doing a disservice.
So drugs can’t take one to Krishna directly. Nobody will get just by taking drugs, pure love for Krishna. But through some things, if people get some experiences which make them feel good, make them feel like exploring something higher in their lives, we can see that maybe this is the way Krishna is clearing the path for them to come to him.
But this is not. This is something more transitional. It’s not something permanent.
So that would be my understanding. Does it address the question? Yes. Yes.
They have indicated yes on the Guru Prabhu. Thank you, Sadhya Mataji for your comment. I think the broad mindedness is just a result of having my mind blown out many times by seeing how I thought that this person just cannot be Krishna conscious, the way they’re living, the way they’re speaking, what they’re doing.
And then actually I put aside my filter and talk with them. I see that they’re so deeply conscious of Krishna. So that’s what the road to becoming broad minded is not so easy.
So I also have my sore spot. So I would say that we all need to learn. But yes, I’m happy to be of some service.
So thank you for this opportunity. It’s almost been two hours. I’m sorry for the small technical hitch in between.
But it is a very for me also a stimulating discussion. There’s a lot of earnest questions. And I’m I’m happy that all of you are also thinking seriously about the challenges that are there in trying to share Krishna Bhakti.
And I hope that I could share some insights that can help you in your challenging service there. Thank you very much. Prabhupada Ki Jai.
Jai. Jai. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Prabhu, for that class. And thank you for everyone for staying through this very amazing, intellectual and altogether insightful class.
We appreciate Prabhu’s contribution and your stay. Thank you for your service. So these are my websites.
Gita Daily is where I write an article on the Gita every day. In fact, I would say 70, 80 percent of what I spoke. There are already articles on the Gita Daily about these things.
And then the Spiritual Scientist is where mostly my lectures and question answers are there. And Monk’s Podcast is where I have discussions with senior devotees about various issues that are that are confronting us in our practise and in our sharing of Krishna Bhakti. These are online resources that are available, if any of you would like to access them.
Thank you. Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna, Prabhu.
Hare Krishna. So actually, it’s already on the screen. Prabhu can be found on the World Wide Web at www.gitadaily.com, as well as www.thespiritualscientist.com, where he can be contacted.
You can also subscribe to his YouTube channel at the Monk’s Podcast. Furthermore, please kindly visit, like, share and follow WUSA social media platforms that include Facebook, Instagram and YouTube at WUSA 108. Please help us get to 1000 followers and subscriptions and even more.
Thank you so much for your support. We are happy to announce that our morning Japa sessions are back. The details around the daily programme will be communicated in the WUSA weekly WhatsApp group.
You can join the WUSA weekly WhatsApp group via the link at www.wusa.online to receive regular activity updates and communications. The link is on the chat panel. Very importantly, this group is only used for quick announcements and will be not used for spam.
Only admins are able to post on the group. We are also very happy and excited to announce that our books, that books are the basis of club, is up and running. Please catch us every Thursday evening for a jam-packed reading and sharing of your realisations sessions via Zoom.
We are also elated to announce that we have the Heart to Heart Vaishnav Circle. It’s happening every Friday from 6.30 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. Standard South African time with a Grace Madhavraj Leela via Zoom. You can visit that also through www.wusa.online to find out more about this.
Join the WUSA weekly WhatsApp group to keep updated and participate in all of the exciting programmes that I’ve just given to you. On that note, a quick update on the fundraiser for the WUSA Preaching Initiative is that the Sankirtan bus has been ticked off the WUSA wish list and the WUSA House Yoga Studio is nearing completion. We thank all who opened their hearts to us and have donated towards this preaching effort.
The bus and now the studio, I guess we can say, were amongst the first items on the wish list that we need to mobilise for our preaching effort. We still have quite a bit to go. Please yet again visit www.wusa.online to download the wish list from our donations page on our site.
And for more information, you are welcome to contact us via email at admin at www.wusa.online. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
Yo, yo, what, thank you. Uh huh, yeah. Thought I was a ball in a warm, wild roof, associating with the books.
Now that the table’s been turned, Luke’s the great old fool. Hare Krishna. The first time I met the devotees, they were here in Victoria Temple, they were meditating.
Then, they introduced me to Japa. I tried it. I came back and tried it with them.
It was fun, nice. So, I decided to take it. Then, the day when I came back, Nolale Maharaj, He introduced this section in the Bible, Enewele Ratha, from Vanity Karma.
The book was Vanity Karma. Enewele Ratha, like, different things and their narratives. Like, there’s a time to kill, a time to mourn, a time to be born, a time to die.
So, it made sense to me. Then, I decided to stay with the devotees to Japa, which is nice. Hare Krishna.
Woosa, wake up South Africa. Woosa, wake up South Africa. You’ve been sleeping for too long.
Wake up South Africa. Now, come along and sing this song. Wake up South Africa.
Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Wake up South Africa. Krishna, Krishna, Hare, Hare, Wake up South Africa. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Wake up South Africa.
Rama, Rama, Hare, Hare, Wake up South Africa.