Effective Bridge Preaching, The Monk’s Podcast 147 with Radheshyam Prabhu

Podcast: Summary podcast: Video:

Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna Radheshyam Prabhu, humble obeisances.

Thank you very much for joining again for the Monks Podcast today. Thank you. I thought today we would discuss about the topic of bridge preaching.

It is becoming both increasingly a matter of need as well as increasingly a matter of concern. On one side need because the world is changing and people's thoughts are changing. So, we need to find out new ways to reach out to people.

At the same time, it's become an increasing matter of concern because how far can we go, what all can we do and what all can we not do respect to bridge preaching. So, in that sense both issues are there, need and concern. Like a rubber band.

How much can you stretch? Sometimes it just breaks to pieces. Yeah, that's true. So, now sometimes I find that some discussions involve unnecessary polarities like artificial polarities which make things little more conflicting than they need to be.

So, in one sense is the word bridge preaching actually even a valid term because in one sense all preaching is bridging. All preaching is forming a bridge between the preacher and the audience. Maybe the only difference we could say is that some bridges are traditional.

That's how things have happened and that's how say the spiritual master and aspiring seekers have connected and some bridges might be new. So, what are your thoughts about bridge preaching in general and specifically the term bridge preaching itself? Okay. Actually, why the bridge preaching is called a bridge? Because the devotee who is giving the knowledge he is actually giving from the scriptures and the newcomer has his own needs and the preacher wants to offer him something to bring him up to a higher plane.

Say for example our Srila Prabhupada met his spiritual master. At that time he was a Gandhian our Srila Prabhupada you know he was wearing Khadi dress and he also asked his guru that you know currently India is under foreign rule. Who will take our message seriously? You know.

So, he was talking from one plane and his guru told him okay now British people are there. Before that Mughals were there. Now later on Chinese may want to come or someone else may want to come here.

These things are all changing situations. But the philosophy of consciousness is eternal. It's everlasting culture of the soul.

It's occupation duty of the soul and this cannot wait. It's emergency and then he said Lord Chaitanya's message is how sublime it is. In fact Vaishnava is the most harmless Rishi because Vaishnava will not cause harm even to an ant and such a Vaishnava means who is a Vaishnava? Anybody from any part of the world can become a Vaishnava devotee because it's actually a particular quality of a devotee.

So, he explained it so beautifully at that on that very day our Srila Prabhupada decided that you know he says I took him in my heart as my spiritual master and he surrendered to him. So, I often tell people this is Desh Prem, this is Krishna Prem. So, Guruji is speaking from Krishna Prem point of view and here disciple is going from Desh Prem.

So, he elevated him from Desh Prem to Krishna Prem. Of course, we know it's a Leela. At the same time we also can take some lessons from that because students whom we preach to they come from one paradigm and we are talking from a spiritual paradigm which they do not know.

So, what we call as a bridge is you know you for example try to picturise in your mind there is a river and there is a bridge between the two. This side there are Hare Krishna devotees, Hare Krishna devotees playing Mridanga, you know doing kirtan chanting, dancing and they are shaven head with shikha and tilak and everything. New people will have a culture shock seeing them.

On the other side you find scientists, you know and leaders and managers and politicians and cinema actors, actresses and the whole society. So, let us have a bridge between the two. Now, Hare Krishna devotees here are dancing and singing very joyfully and these people are very depressed and frustrated because of the way the world is, you know they have to work very hard and they are stressed and depressed.

They are looking on this side. So, what Hare Krishna devotees have to do? They have to go over the bridge to the centre of the bridge probably in half distance and then these people see them more closely and they also come towards the centre of the bridge. Both see there is an interaction between the two.

After that Hare Krishna devotees go to the other side of the show and some of them will go with them to that side. Others will take a U-turn and go back. Correct, no? So, now Hare Krishna devotees are giving them a higher paradigm and those people who are able to catch that higher paradigm will catch it.

And those who don't want it, they may go back. Some people may go back because you will see that every living being has a tendency to strive for perfection even in material life also. Even if I am an engineer, even if I am a doctor, we all have a tendency to strive for perfection.

Whatever I do, we want to do it perfectly. Where does that come from? It is actually innate longing of the soul to become pure and perfect. And that… I appreciate what you are saying.

I am just trying to understand that isn't this all preaching? Even if somebody is coming to a temple, they are still having a lower conception. Correct. Even most people come to temple for ritual purposes.

Yeah. So, then we are giving them philosophical logic education and say, in one sense, from ritual or cultural purposes, we take them to a spiritual level. Correct.

So, in one sense, even a Bhagavatam class, which is Bhagavatam class is spoken by devotees, heard by devotees. Yeah. But still, it is understood that the Bhagavatam speaker has a higher… has a better understanding of the subject and is helping to help… is helping for the audience to raise their understanding.

In that sense, every form of sharing Krishna consciousness is forming a bridge. So… I would say that, for example, say, I have to climb onto a train, the foot from here from the platform to the train is little high. Some people may find it difficult to climb up.

So, they have given some 2-3 steps. You know, you keep on the step like this and then you get into the train. Then there is a bridging.

On the other hand, see, why we use the word bridge, I will tell you. Because if, like you know, if it is specifically driven towards a certain type of audience and you know their makeup of their mindset and then, for example, vagrants, you know what is their mindset. Similarly, somebody is coming from a certain other religious background, like for example, the Christians may think that you know, do not worship the graven images.

So, they may have idea that any image should not be worshipped, idol worship should not be done. So, I have to present them deity worship and they have a notion that idol should not be worshipped. So, now I have to explain to them in a way that they will appreciate deity worship.

That is called bridging. Okay. So, we could say that when a particular audience has a particular set of preconceptions, either preconceptions about Krishna Consciousness or we could say preconceptions about life at large, because of which the standard presentation of Krishna Consciousness which you might do when people come to the temples.

This is the Bhagavad Gita. This is what the Bhagavad Gita teaches. That will lead to rejection.

Okay. Yeah. When it is going to lead to rejection, to avoid rejection, we have to put a bridge and give them steps and escort them to come to the perfect understandings.

Like, you know, I am approaching students. Students' heads are clouded with the idea that Darwin's evolution theory is the ultimate. Life came like that.

Okay. And they have idea of Big Bang Theory. So, their heads are clouded because that's what they have been taught and we have to feel sympathy for them actually.

And then, now I give my presentation. Evolution is not wrong but what evolves has to be understood. In the same manner, you know, Mahavishnu is in the centre of the Big Bang.

Then, universes are expanding. We have to know from where is it expanding. Your father of your father of your father of your father of your father is not a stone chunk from which everything is expanding.

Father of father of father cosmology approach means he is a living person. So, now this is what is bridging. You know, science students are clouded with wrong scientific, so-called scientific conceptions.

They need to be helped like that. Similarly, children also. Children are programmed to think that life is meant for enjoyment.

Teenagers, you know. I understand you are going specific demographics to give an example. Yes.

I would say that so, anything apart from the traditional mode of directly taking the scripture and teaching the scripture. Say, if we are giving a Bhagavad Gita class in the temple, Bhagavatam class in the temple, we could say, in principle, all preaching is bridging, but technically we are, but specifically we use the word bridge. When we are building, you could say, we are doing outreach for a particular demographic, which has particular conceptions, particular needs, particular concerns.

So, okay. So, does that more or less agree with what you are saying? Actually, what we do in the temple as far as I understand, in temple you just give straight from the scriptures. For example, the deities are already there.

You are giving Bhagavatam class and many of the speakers are younger speakers also. They may not be able to help all the audience to get answers to all the questions many times. There may be very mature speakers also, but many times we have many young speakers.

Prabhupada wanted every day Bhagavatam class to go on in all the temples. In most of the temples you find many young speakers speak. They may just speak straight from the scriptures.

They may not be able to answer some of the questions by the totally new people who come for the lectures and sometimes when new people come and they don't get answers also sometimes. It happens like that. It happens like that.

Similarly, in the temple when they come, they see Jagannath Baladeva Subhadra. They don't know who they are. Sometimes people don't know.

We explain to them and I feel that in temple what we are doing may not necessarily be called as bridging because we are just offering readymade Krishna consciousness to them as it's given in Shastra without bothering much about whether the audience is able to grasp it or not. We are just giving because some of them have the Sukruti from the past. They pick it up.

Like we are doing dancing here then. Some of the newcomers come and dance directly. They don't have any reservation.

So the word bridging should come only when there is a reservation. Okay. On the part of the recipients.

Some kind of reservation which prevents them from holding from them to either explore, understand, practise Krishna consciousness. Correct. Okay.

Perfect. That makes sense. Now, when I was in Pune at that time, I think we did several bridge programmes also together.

I think one of the, I remember the I-Square IIT we went. That was the first experience in how you presented. You took some leadership principles from contemporary sources.

You integrated them with the three modes. Then you presented. So was this the idea of bridge preaching? Reach out to college audiences.

Was this something which you recognised the need and you started it yourself with your art of mind control and practical mind control? Or had you seen somebody else do this before also? And that's how you got the idea to do it? Actually, when I first You are the pioneer in youth outreach. Then youth do require a certain amount of bridge. So how did you get into this zone? I heard from one devotee that when Srila Prabhupada went to western 1965, at that time they were trying to send rocket to moon.

1969, Neil Armstrong you know, they wanted to send to moon. So there was a lot of curiosity both in Russia and in America about going to another planet and there was a kind of cold war also between the two countries. Who will go first to another planet? So therefore Prabhupada introduced a new book Easy Journey to Other Planets.

And Prabhupada writes about anti-material. So Prabhupada was very much aware of the people's needs. Therefore, before we give any lecture we have to create hunger in the belly of the audience.

Because once they are hungry then you give the food it will be immediately accepted. But if there is no hunger it's going to be rejected. So you are saying that Easy Journey to Other Planets is an example of bridge outreach which Prabhupada did.

That's not the only one. That's one of the things Prabhupada did. Interesting now you only talk about demographic.

That is the only book which Prabhupada writes is dedicated to the scientists of the world. Ah! That's interesting. And I was just looking at the publishing of the book.

It seems Prabhupada published it in 1960s. So it was even before he went to America. Because when he was in India at that time it seems in 1958 or something he published it.

And Prabhupada quotes about that incident that there is an Indian scholar scientist who came and talked with him and they had a good discussion. He said, Swamiji, if you go to the moon, can we come back? Prabhupada said, why do you want to come back? Everything is better there. Why would you want to come back? That's a good example.

Prabhupada uses, instead of using the word spirit, Prabhupada uses antimatter. Yeah. So that's a good example.

And then Prabhupada also taught Sanskrit. He started Sanskrit classes in America. And few people started coming regularly.

And once the strength was considerable strength after that Prabhupada stopped the Sanskrit and started Krishna conscious teaching regularly. And that's why he taught Sanskrit only for probably a month or two. Because his inclination was not to become a Sanskrit teacher and teach Sanskrit to the western people.

Okay. That was not his goal. Isn't it? That's true.

So we could say that a bridge preaching involves some level of Yukta Vairagya. If you can say something which is of interest to audience and something which is of interest to us so we find an intersection of that. Say for example, mind control is of interest to students because they want to concentrate and study.

And they want to do well in their studies. It's for everyone. People want to have good relationships.

So they need to manage their emotions. They manage their anger. So there are some things which are of interest to people already.

And then we find an intersection between what is of interest to them and what is of interest to, what is our interest or what is it that we want to share with them. Correct. And then we could say from there gradually we get them to become interested in what is our main outreach.

Correct. Exactly. You are right.

For example, Prabhupada one year was finding not much results during his stay in America. And then Prabhupada saw that he practically was helplessly praying to Krishna for you know, you know, mercy. So and then it clicked to Prabhupada that the hippies, you know, he found a spark of Krishna consciousness in them.

What is it? They had an inclination for music and they had an inclination for going up, you know. Therefore, he went to the park and he did the kirtan and all of them brought their instruments. And then they could connect with the mantra, Mahamantra which he was singing and gradually they started following the principles and then they got high.

Therefore, then they published that flyer, you know, stay high forever, you know. So, why did they take drugs? Because they wanted to go high. Prabhupada wanted to teach them that by taking this Mahamantra, you will go high but you will never come down.

Whereas, your drugs take you high and bring you down. So, in this way, Prabhupada connected with their eagerness to, you know, become, there is the desire to be what you call it, abandon everything and just, you know, go high. That type of mood they had.

Prabhupada said, instead of abandoning for nothing, you abandon things for Krishna's sake. You know. Yes.

Krishnaarthi akila cheshta. He connected them. Similarly, you have a desire to go high but don't go materially high, go spiritually high.

So, in that connection, I read one dialogue. Our Alan Ginsberg was telling Prabhupada, Swamiji, this age is very degraded. He said, Prabhupada said, yes.

And people are very, very unqualified. He said, yes. And everybody's mind is very polluted.

He said, Prabhupada said, yes. Therefore, Krishna has come in the form of a drug called LSD. In order to take people high.

Like that he was telling. And that Prabhupada said, wait a minute. How can you say Krishna has come in the form of LSD? That's because you are feeling high.

The feeling of highness, what you feel is a mode of ignorance. It is complete mode of ignorance because when you come down, it involves suffering of the body. You're going high is actually not Samadhi.

It is a kind of Vishupti, which you feel it is a kind of ignorance, blackout. And you feel that you escaped from the problems of the world. It's like ostrich burying his face into the hole.

Thinking there is no tiger. And that's how Alan Ginsberg started appreciating Prabhupada after that. Slowly he started appreciating Prabhupada's understanding.

So in this way, Prabhupada, Prabhupada told him to spiritually go high instead of trying to materially go high. So you could say that here itself, Prabhupada is in one sense drawing the boundaries of the bridge also. Or like boundaries of bridge outreach.

Yes, drugs may be of interest to people, but drugs is not what we recommend. Exactly. While you were talking, I made a visual, if I can share it in one minute.

the focus of bridge outreach, you can say what we wish to share and what audience need. The audience may need hundreds of things. They may need drugs.

Yeah. But drugs is one way of going high. Whereas chanting the holy names and immersing ourselves in divine sound is another way of going high.

So we need to find out this area of intersection. Correct. And then from there, going high is one aspect, but there are many other things in spiritual life.

Sometimes you may not go high, but still you may be getting purified. Sometimes some things may involve austerities that they will gradually get interested in. Correct.

So, now, during Prabhupada's time, you said music. Music was one aspect of you could say bridge outreach. And then music itself involved, actually you can say music itself was a way for them to go high.

So, in today's world, say with respect to the, with the college outreach, so, what are the areas in which you feel that or you have found it effective doing some kind of bridge outreach to get people, get students or get others to come closer to Krishna? Yeah, all across the globe we find in the modern day, people have awakened to very nice things now. For example, people have started understanding, you know, one boy had a t-shirt I saw. Live echo, live ego.

That was a t-shirt. Beautiful. Environmental consciousness.

My spiritual master said the same thing when I went to GV once. He said, he said, every GY is hankering for, you know, ego-friendly relationships and they want to live in echo-friendly environment. He said.

Oh, beautiful. I heard it five years ago, but this boy is having in his t-shirt, you know, live echo, live ego. Many modern day people hate egotistic people.

They are looking for simple people, friendly people, and courteous people, kind people who will not unnecessarily, you know, insult you or misbehave with you. Therefore, they wear the t-shirt on being human. You can see that.

So, that means people are looking for satisfied with oneself and being sensitive with others. That kind of relationship people are looking for. So, they are looking for good relationships and people are looking for programmes not in concrete buildings, but they are looking for programmes where it's echo-friendly environment.

So, if you take them to a farm or a, you know, where there is nice grass lawn or there are, they can do some trekking in the mountain or there is a water body they can swim, you know, and also you have cottages where you can do a Bhagavad Gita class programme and more number of people come for such a, you know, retreat type of thing, rather than if you do it in a concrete building, not many people are happy to come. So, and what are they eager to learn? They want to know how to manage their mind. Like I had given 40 topics, one-time programme topics to IIT Bombay.

They chose this art of harnessing mind power. That's what they have chosen. Which goes to show that people want to know mind is like an elephant.

An elephant can be good, elephant can be bad. A good elephant gives ashram, you know, a good elephant can take you on its back. A good elephant can carry trunks of wood for the human beings and be good friends with humans.

You can even walk elephant on the road, but can you walk a lion on the road? You cannot. On the other hand, the same elephant, when it becomes mad, it can take scooters and break it. It can break down cars, it can kill people, isn't it? So, people want to know how to manage the mind.

So, one is the mind management they want to know, how to learn good habits, pure habits. People are getting obesity problem. They want to learn how to be slim and how to, you know, control the six urges.

So, we have a network of instructions, such a wonderful knowledge and we also have three type of austerities in Bhagavad Gita. 17.14, 15, 16 verses. So, people want to learn self-management.

They want to learn self-development. They want to learn mind management. They want to restrain the bestial emotions like anger management and anger and lust and greed.

How to, you know, ambition is good, but over ambition is never good. Ambition is like stretch zone. Over ambition is panic zone.

So, people understand that panic zone is no good. So, how to have, you know, thumping emotions in life without burning out ourselves. People want to know like when I was in Boston.

So, I am sorry. I wanted to just articulate what you are saying is, you could say this whole genre can be called something like self-help or self-development or self-improvement. Yes, correct.

So, this is the area where most people are looking for. Yeah, large number of people are looking for and in one sense we could say Christians have capitalised on this area hugely. Even before I was introduced to Krishna Consciousness, a book I had read was about the power of positive thinking.

That was by Norman Vincent Peale and it's considered a classic. And he brings in, he talks about positive thinking, but he brings in Christian values in that. And so, I think this whole area, it is huge.

And there are some other, we could say, Hindu or Vedic groups have also tapped it significantly. Recently, I did a 10-part series called self-development series. Each Sunday, I saw 1400 people registered for that.

So, 10 Sundays, successive Sundays we did. Now, beginning with self-awareness, you know, then self-management, then overcoming inferiority complex, overcoming superiority complex, auto-thinking, abundance mentality, self-care, all these things, everything about the self. And people really are looking for, as you rightly said, they are looking for self-improvement and self-development.

Also, people are feeling a lot of inferiority complex because of cutthroat competition nowadays. So, they want to know how to live in this world and live in this competitive world. That's another thing people want to know.

Without getting diseased in the mind with inferiority complex, or without hurting ourselves, how to live in the world. Therefore, I put it very precisely, people are looking for self-development as well as healthy relationships with others. Actually, we have a lot to offer in Krishna Consciousness because we teach personal values, interpersonal values, social values, and spiritual values.

We have information about all these four in the Shastra. So, yes. Sorry, what are the four things? Personal, interpersonal? Personal values, interpersonal values, social values, and spiritual values.

Yeah. Okay. So, now this is a good question.

I'll come to it later. But when we talk about self-help, or self-development, there is a certain level of, you could say, self-interest in that. That people are not interested in Krishna per se, or they are not interested in God, they are not interested in Atma also, they are interested in themselves.

Overall, it seems that people are more interested in philosophy, often people talk about two categories, or spirituality, and they talk about two categories, philosophical spirituality and practical spirituality or pragmatic spirituality. So, as a movement, we have traditionally focused on philosophical spirituality, proving the existence of God, proving the existence of the soul. I had gone to America, and I had given, like you said, several topics, I had also given a hundred topics for people to choose from, and one of the topics said that, one of the, say, logical reasons for the existence of God.

So, one of the organisers, they said, you know, another topic, God exists, so what? So, how does it matter to me? So, in one sense, the philosophical aspects are not as important. They don't feel it as relevant as, okay, how does it apply to me? So, in that sense, is there a, you could say, a shift in focus, because Prabhupada did seem to focus a lot on philosophical principles, you know, you're not the body, you're the soul, sense gratification doesn't lead to happiness. We don't see much of Prabhupada directly teaching, you know, how you can develop better relationships, they're implicit, but that is not the thrust of Prabhupada's teachings.

Actually, when, there are two aspects which you said. Actually, if a person is interested in self, I would consider it a big qualification. I will tell you why.

For example, when I was in my school days, I used to go to gym also. In the gym, many boys used to come, we all used to do this, you know, two bars will be there, jumping over the bars, there will be a big Hanuman picture there. We will bow down to Hanuman.

Hanuman was our hero. You know, Hanuman had a very, very well-built body and he did great things for Lord Ram, isn't it? So, on the other hand, there were other friends in our college, they were very lazy fellows, they'll be just sleeping in Tamoguna. You know, they will not be able to get up and come to the gym and do some practise and play some sports and keep themselves healthy.

So, people who are concerned about their bodily health are superior to irresponsible people who are ruining their health. So, therefore, I would consider the people you know, who are going for brisk walk in the morning and doing pranayama, doing yoga and asanas and everything, I would consider them highly qualified candidates for spiritual life. So, this is itself a sign of little bit of sattva.

Ah, correct. Long-term well-being, not just immediate pleasure. Correct.

I told the people in my lecture that there are three selves. There is a superficial self which is gross body and there is a subtle self and the real self. And when I showed them how the superficial gross body self dissolves like a candle in fire and it is finished very quickly.

You know, it's exchanges of the body and the subtle body accompanies but it's called body of desires. It is a trouble creating body, subtle body. But the real self is the Atma.

Then many people could easily shift from this to this. They understood because earlier I thought I am the body. I was decorating the body, putting powder, decorating everything.

Now I understood I am not this body. This is like a shirt over the soul. Now they became interested in the soul after that.

So, it is very nice that somebody is responsible in life. You know, taking like somebody is going for a brisk walk, doing pranayama and then eventually from there you teach them, you know. Therefore, first we take them for this.

Like you said practical spirituality. From there we take them for a discover yourself type of course. Where we can teach about the soul, about God, you know, about the spiritual duties, how we can and also one thing, once they see that spiritual life is very nice, these people have pure habits, their eating is pure, they respect one another very well and they are very satisfied in their life, they are very friendly.

So, the culture is very strong in our ISKCON movement, Prabhupada gave us. So, the culture is so powerful, you know, even George Harrison says he was very much touched by Yamuna Mataji's good behaviour. So, George Harrison speaks about it.

He says that, I saw the erection, they are innocent like children. They are so pure hearted. They are always in the mood of giving and sharing.

So, he said these things touched him very much. So, ISKCON has a big plus point of culture, Vaishnava culture which comes in our disabled clan. So, achar and prachar.

So, we call it as a present, we call it as a representation and presentation. Presentation is tattva, representation is achar. So, like in South India, when Sri Vaishnava was telling, our tattva is like the eyes, eyesight and achar is like the legs, as he was telling.

So, we walk, you know, I go here, I go there and my eyes show me direction. So, one shows direction, one helps in mobility, he said. So, for example, I have tattva, but I have no sadachar, then nobody will want to hear from me.

But if I have sadachar, but I am blind, I have no tattva to present, then people will like me, but they can't benefit from it. Okay. That's a very good metaphor.

So, walking or talking is very important. I mean that could be a big subject in itself, but related to self-help, so what you are saying is that in one sense, what people, the responsible kind of life, the responsible kind of lifestyle that people are looking for, in one sense, that is implicit or foundational in Krishna consciousness. This is something which automatically comes up.

So, now people, when they come to a temple directly, they may only see us, say, dancing in kirtans or doing puja or doing japa, and they may feel this is not really relevant for me. But if they actually understand that underlying all that, all those specifically things which seem religious, the whole way of living, which makes sense, like you say regulated eating and other regulated things like that, so then, so it's more like just we are presenting those things to them at that time, and then that attracts them. So, direct religious activities may not attract them, but when we show how those religious activities contribute to providing almost as a fringe benefit, what they are looking for.

Yeah. Few minutes ago you made one point that Shri Prabhupada is found to be presenting mostly the philosophy directly to new people. He doesn't seem to do the bridging of, you know, talking about some relationship health and all that.

I will give an example. Whenever Prabhupada met anybody, you know, his own as Giriraswamy's mother and father had come. So, Prabhupada saw Giriraswamy's mother and Prabhupada asked Giriraswamy, is it your mother? And he said, yes.

Oh, she is so young. Like that he said. She looks very young.

Yes. And she felt very satisfied because women like to look young. And then Prabhupada saw his father was also there and when a Rolls Royce car came to take Prabhupada, so his father looked at the Rolls Royce car and said, oh, your Swamiji has a Rolls Royce car, he said.

And Prabhupada told him, would you like to come with me in this car? This is not my car. Sometimes my rich disciples bring such car. If you wish, you can come with me, he said.

So, immediately father understood that Swamiji is giving me respect. So, Prabhupada was very respectful, very polite. You know, there is one Shamsundar Prabhu in our movement, who is other than the famous Shamsundar Prabhu, who is well known.

I am just trying to understand this example. So, what you are saying is that in Prabhupada's lectures, maybe there is not much emphasis on, he may talk about you are not the body, you are the soul and you are give up sense gratification, but this personal conduct, Prabhupada did give you importance to culture, behaviour, to polite. Prabhupada personally picked up chairs and put for that family.

Shamsundar Prabhu's mother, father and sister came. Prabhupada personally took chairs and put and they said, no, no, no, Swamiji, please, we will take your old, please don't take trouble. They said and they took it.

When they sat, Prabhupada asked that girl, you know, do you know Mahamantra? And she started singing. Immediately, Hare Krishna. Then immediately Prabhupada called Shamsundar and said, oh, she is singing Mahamantra so well.

So, he used to play guitar and his sister used to sing. Prabhupada appreciated that so much. So, they had a very good experience with Prabhupada.

So, therefore, Swamiji's father told Swamiji, your Guru is a very intelligent personality, he said. And Prabhupada said, yes, I must be intelligent because you know, you know, your people like your intelligent son has become my disciple, I must be intelligent, he said. And then Prabhupada said, actually you are intelligent because you had a son like Giriraj.

So, in people dealing Prabhupada was very good. Dealing with people very warmly, that is one thing. And second thing, Prabhupada introduced his con, not as a religious movement, but as a cultural movement in the west.

You know, he personally cooked several items, gulab jamuns and served it. The hippies when they came, the hippies were charmed by the kind of prasadam that he served. They said, wow, this is, we have never seen something like this in this world.

And Prabhupada, you know, helped them to develop taste for Krishna prasadam which is pure spiritual substance. It is sanctified karma-free lacto-vegetarian diet. That's the translation in English for prasadam.

You know. And Prabhupada fed them and he taught them how to cook also. Kirtan Swami started making chapatis.

Prabhupada, if you see San Francisco, the past times, you know, more than 150 to 200 boys and girls used to come in the afternoon time to the centre. More than only 200. In the morning also some of the girls and boys would go to the market place and do Harinam Sankirtan and get all the oats and vegetables and everything was free coming.

And Prabhupada taught the devotees to cook, offer it to Krishna. Everybody will bow down, all hippies. He taught it as a culture.

He didn't introduce Krishna consciousness as a religious movement or a set of orthodox principles. He didn't do that. Okay.

I mean, so what is the point you are making through this? What I was telling was, you know, there are two things. There are things which people like to do very naturally. For example, music is of interest, eating is of their interest, dancing is of their interest, you know, doing some activities.

I think the way you are using the word culture is more in terms of experiential. It's like you offer people experiences, not just like do's and don'ts. Exactly.

This is abstract philosophy. But along with that, there was a whole set of experiences which were new and exciting and adventurous. Exactly.

Exactly. Once they get that, their mind also becomes purified and now they can sit down and listen to philosophy. Okay.

So, this was your response to the point that Prabhupada, so we could say Prabhupada was bridging not necessarily in his preaching but in his one-to-one conduct, in his achar, he was forming bridges very effectively. Yeah. Two things.

Prabhupada's behaviour and the real-life experiences that he offered them in the form of varieties of items. Like for example, you know, he showed Krishna consciousness is colourful. Like we can have ratha yatra and dance, we can have music, we can have deity worship, we can stitch clothes, we can make ornaments for the deities.

It's a colourful path. It's a this path. It is not a boring path.

All day you fast and eat one carrot. It's not that kind of movement. Okay.

Yeah. So, personal behaviour plus very cultural, practical, experiential experiences which charmed their hearts and then comes the philosophy. Okay.

So, it's a multi-pronged approach and philosophy was only one part of it. Now, if we consider in today's world, even before we can give people the experience, people are not going to come to the temple, people are not really going to, if you are going to a company or if you are going to a college, then we may, so the principle of forming a bridge Prabhupada may not have so directly used in his philosophical presentations. Of course, you said that he did it in Easy Journey to Other Planets.

But for us, we may have to do the bridge in philosophy also. So, there are examples where Prabhupada does bridging in philosophy also. Yes.

He tells a liquid beauty story. Liquid beauty story he tells. Liquid beauty.

I was even thinking of Prabhupada wrote a letter to Pope John Paul II, where he said that all the religions of the world should unite to counter the spread of atheism. Yeah. He doesn't talk about Krishna over there, but he talks about general religious values or general spiritual values for which we can work together.

Yeah, nevertheless, Prabhupada is unique in one thing. If you see his conversations, the other person may speak only one or two sentences, but Prabhupada will speak more. Because Prabhupada knew very well, he didn't want to hear ignorance.

He wanted to enlighten. So, therefore, whenever you will see somebody is asking question one or two lines, Prabhupada will have a bigger response to that. So, he was very particular that the end result has to be achieved.

It is not that, you know, what happens with many bridging people in the modern times that I am observing that people want to make the audience feel nice and then leave them, which is actually very, very unfortunate because if you give a nice experience to the audience, the goal should be to make them Krishna conscious. Like in my bridging, if you ask me, what would I like to do? I would like to achieve some tangible goal. For example, I want to see them chanting at least one round of Hare Krishna.

I want them to at least follow the gross four regulative principles. Which means, no fish meat or eggs, no gambling, no intoxication like smoking, drinking, drugs and no illicit sex. No sex before marriage, no sex after marriage.

There are certain aspects which I may not emphasise for new people. For example, no coffee, no tea, no onion, garlic, you know, no speculation, which is called gambling. Similarly, puja ala patishtha.

These are all deeper things. But the gross things plus one round of chanting at least, at least this much we should expect from a newcomer in our precinct. We can do all kind of bridging if it is needed.

Therefore, I don't do bridge for a very long time. Generally, we do one-time programme and following that one-time programme, immediately we have Discover Yourself course and good number of people will drop. One-time programme we do for 200 people and for Discover Yourself, we may get about 60-80 people.

And after that Discover Yourself course is over, we may get about, you know, 30 people. At the end of the year, even if we get 10, 20, 16 rounders out of this, who are faithful practitioners, some of them actually become initiated also and they will actually reach out to many, many people also after that. In this way, if you focus on quality, we get quality quantity over time.

Hmm. Quality quantity. Yeah.

Quality quantity means? You can have, like, I think in the college outreach, you mentioned that you go to different colleges and then from each college, if you get 10-10 also, then overall you are getting quality quantity as a concentrated thing. Exactly, yeah. And that way, our movement will have legacy.

Recently, one very interesting thing I heard, I asked my one of Prabhupada's disciples here in Hyderabad, his name is Anandamaya Prabhu. I said, Prabhu, nowadays people are attracting millions of followers. Many of the YouTube gurus, you know, they have several millions of followers they are attracting and they are presenting substandard philosophy.

They don't tell the spirituality directly. They are just making people feel good and life is going on for them. Then I asked him, but on the other hand, we many times praise our movement that we are preaching, but our presence is very small, you know, in the YouTube world and people don't know us so much.

These guys are so popular. You know what he said? Interesting thing he said. He said in South India, I went to one very famous guru's ashram.

I will not tell you the name. He said that now the mathai is there, I mean the coffin is there, the samadhi and people go around it and in the same compound they are selling meat now. Although that fellow was very much against violence to animals and all.

They are selling meat in a hotel there and his books are all kept in showpiece just for people to watch, that's all. And there is nobody, no deity is there, no worship is there, no harinam is there, nothing. He said he was such a big man in his times.

He had millions of followers. After the person is gone, the movement becomes a dead movement. It has no more existence.

On the other hand, he said, see Srila Prabhupada left the world in 1977. He had 108 temples he made. Now there are a thousand temples in the world and now you see the Iskcon temples, every day six times offerings are taking place for the lord and the dresses are changed for the lord morning and evening two times.

And how many people are chanting and dancing harinam, sankirtan, vichari, yuga dharma for the Kali yuga. He said above this is a living movement and many other big people have come and gone in the sands of time you know, that has become a dead movement because they are like charismatic people at the top like apex in the pyramid. When that fellow is gone, the movement is finished.

So Prabhupada actually created a legacy which his followers are carrying. I really loved it. And I would like to do the same thing in my life.

I would like to create successors to me. What are good things I am preaching. I would like to spend time with the leaders and the committed devotees, dedicated devotees actually it's a success in our preaching if we get committed, dedicated devotees who, for whom Prabhupada is the hero.

For whom Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the hero. And Brahma Mata Gaudiya Sampradaya is the life and soul. And they would lay down their life.

They can be Brahastas, they can be Matajis, they can be Brahmacharis, they can be whoever. They should say that I am convinced with this Gaudiya Vishnu philosophy and I give my life for it. I would say this type of preaching I would like to do personally.

So, yeah, I think we have discussed this, you talked about leaving a legacy. So now, the point of legacy, how are you connecting that with bridge outreach? So it should not become so diluted that there is nothing left afterwards. Yeah, exactly.

You really captured the point. That is the main point. Because, see, I do bridging, bridging, bridging and I am dead now.

Say, I am dying at 70 or 80 for example. I did bridging, bridging means all of them are in the bridge. I brought them to the bridge and I finished.

Now they didn't get anything of Krishna consciousness. Then what spiritual benefit I have given them? Na budhpadiye, yajirathim samayevahi kevalam. Okay.

Yeah. You know, Narada Mani says, if you teach about the body and mind, that only is like a boat which is agitated in the ocean. Narada Mani says in the Bhagavatam.

You know, it's like a boat which is having no anchor. We should give them the anchor in Krishna's lotus feet. We should give that anchor.

It's our duty as sadhus to preach on behalf of Prabhupada. So, I will not mind telling people about Krishna. In fact, I will tell you, my bridging programmes have two goals.

One is, for example, I am doing for leaders also. I will tell team playing from Ramayana, from Mahabharata and all, win-win from Mahabharata. But the goal is two goals.

One is, people should develop, fall in love with Lord Rama. They should say, what a leader he is. Oh, I am ashamed that I have so many bad qualities and Lord Rama is being such a good team leader.

I want to be like him. So, they should appreciate Lord Rama. Secondly, they should admire Lord Rama's qualities and Krishna's qualities.

How Krishna is taking advice from Buddha? How Vasudeva is able to tackle the fight or flight situation in which he was put, you know, when Kamsa was about to kill his wife, Devaki. He couldn't run away and he couldn't confront, you know, Kamsa. In that fight or flight situation, how maturely devotees behave.

So, they should appreciate devotees' qualities, Krishna's qualities and they should appreciate, they should fall in love with the Lord and affection to the Lord. Then they should have a paradigm shift that I also actually want to follow these Hare Krishna devotees because they are nicely situated and then they will become devotees. So, I went to Infosys three times.

You know, it's not that in such companies like Infosys or Bank of America, they have any problem with Mahabharata or Ramayana or anything because as long as it helps them in their workplace, they are ready to receive inputs. So, this is my goal. If I do bridging, my goal of the bridge is to make people become fond of the Lord and the devotees because once it happens, you know, then they naturally say, last time we told about Hanuman's Lanka trip.

I have one topic called learning success tips from Hanuman's Lanka trip. That's one seminar. So, people really fall in love with Hanuman and then they told me, please come again teach us.

So, why should I be giving some, you know, some sell sell books, material stuff to them. You know, nowadays I find many people talk about, you know, how to share, how to care, how to be sensitive, you know, be good, do good, feel good about yourself. Where do they go? You know, people are simply on the bodily platform and like somebody sitting inside a complex, you tell them, no, no, no, you look at the mirror, the person inside the mirror is very good, you love him.

You know, this kind of things they teach. Actually, when we teach people that you are actually, you know, you possess Krishna, of course, I am telling in a spiritual language, but inside a complex can be easily overcome by giving them the right self-esteem. So, I had one seminar called Release Steam by Self-Esteem.

You are an expert at this captivating titles. Yeah. I mean, you are giving a lot of examples and trying to re-articulate the principles which you are trying to convey through the examples.

So, if I understand right, what you are saying is that whatever are people's concerns, we can address them through our own traditions resources. Correct. Can there be anything more richer than that? Can anything be more absolute than that? Can anything be more deeper than that? Yes.

You know, I was, I recently did a seminar, I had written a book on leadership based on, leadership principles based on Bhagavad Gita. So, I did a seminar for devotees in Australia online. The first question that came up was that, isn't the Bhagavad Gita about Bhakti? So, how can we actually talk leadership based on Bhagavad Gita? Because Bhagavad Gita is about Bhakti.

So, I gave different answers. I would like to hear yours also. But I will just share what I said is that, Chakravartipada in his commentary on the first verse of the Bhagavatam, he used this, he takes the metaphor of churning the milk ocean.

And he says that, similarly, we can churn scripture. And then he says that, by churning, if you churn with the rod of, I am, you could say, re-articulating or paraphrasing what he is saying. If you churn with the rod of reason or intelligence, you will get some wisdom.

We could say that is like outer layer wisdom. And then, just like say, when they churned, first some good things materially also came out. But then when you churn further with the rod of devotion, then the real nectar of the Bhagavatam will come out.

So, what he says is that, there can be layers in understanding the Bhagavatam and appreciating it. So, even through intelligence, one cannot be anti-devotional, but even if one is not devotional, one is simply intellectual, analytical, studying the text to see what wisdom it contains. So, even through that, one can get some wisdom.

One can get some benefit. And then as one goes deeper, one adopts a devotional approach, so you can get the real nectar. So, similarly, I feel that in studying the Bhagavad Gita also, yes, the Bhagavad Gita is ultimately meant to teach us bhakti and love for Krishna.

But, there are layers at which you can go into the Bhagavad Gita and different people based on their interests can draw certain things. The problem is, if somebody says that the Bhagavad Gita teaches only leadership and nothing else, that is when, that is when we say that this is the ultimate layer. And then that's where it can become misleading.

But drawing at one level, drawing at one level or studying or appreciating the book at one layer, there is nothing wrong in that as per the traditional perspective. What are your thoughts on this? Yeah, actually, Bhagavad Gita teaches stewardship leadership, which is called servant leadership. You will see, Krishna actually teaches what is the mood of a servant leader.

Servant leader is one who makes his subordinates into leaders and he empowers the leaders and makes his subordinates do great things and he claps hands. He is that type of leader. He is a credit giving leader, not a grab credit leader.

He makes Arjuna win and he claps hands. He makes Bhima kill Jarasandha and he tells Yudhishthira Maharaj, I mean he tells Bhima to go in the front and get embrace of Yudhishthira Maharaj and pat on the back and Krishna claps hands that Bhima killed Jarasandha, although he is a seed idea giver for killing Jarasandha. So from Bhagavad Gita we will learn how to become a servant leader.

Actually the servant leader is a top notch leader. There are five type of leaders. The lowest type of leader is one who is an individual player.

Fourth type of leader is one who is a team player. He can work in a team. Third type of leader is one who is a team leader and second type of leader is one who actually can make even a weak member of the team become successful by identifying his innate potentials.

He is the second type of leader and the first top notch leader is a servant leader and Krishna is a servant leader. Therefore you should learn from him. So now how do you, for example in the Bhagavad Gita you will find Krishna is the best listener.

Even Arjuna was giving five reasons. Krishna didn't speak a word. He just was listening, listening.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Are you done? Are you done? After that when Arjuna collapsed and hired Krishna as his guru, then Krishna opened his mouth. So a servant leader is one who listens well because God has given us two ears and one mouth to speak. So in this way we have so many principles from Gita to learn and Krishna is an empathic leader.

Why? Because Krishna when Arjuna said, he said He is an empathic leader. So what you are saying is that within the Gita itself, there are many principles that can be drawn. So even if the trust is not, we are not necessarily saying that Krishna is God.

Yeah. That is the teaching of the Gita and we should be devoted to it. But how Krishna is listening, how Krishna is empathising We present Krishna as a crisis leader, crisis managing leader.

Top most. The world has never seen such a crisis manager like Krishna because here there are seven Aksharinis, here there are 11 Aksharinis and Arjuna's chariot is in between and the CEO of the company is collapsing putting his Gandiva down saying that you know Nayog Sethi Govinda Muktva Atushni Babuva. He says like that.

Imagine if any of us are in Krishna's position we would cry along with Arjuna. We would say, Arjuna what is this? Last minute you are backing out. You could have told me yesterday night.

Now you are the commander in chief. Instead Krishna is such a confident leader you know within 45 minutes to one hour he spoke Bhagavad Gita and made Arjuna stand up with great courage, pick up the bow and arrow. You know he got that will power to do that and then he fought a valiant battle and emerged victorious.

Is Krishna not the best crisis manager the world has ever seen? Beautiful. So going back to your earlier two points that when we present Krishna in this way or when we present Lord Ram in this way they develop appreciation for the attraction for the Lord and also for the devotees. And by this there is curiosity developed by which they want to explore more.

Gradually that path can be opened further. So now So in bridging also there are two types of bridging. One type of bridging mundane bridging.

Another one is spiritual material bridging. Because a mundane bridging it is dead and a spiritual material bridging combination has life and eventually spiritual material become completely spiritual. Okay, spiritual material.

I was thinking so you are using material as a adjective. It's like a holistic. What do you mean? No, I thought spiritual material means material is subject or what you are teaching.

But spiritual material is more like a combination of spiritual and material what you are giving. Ah, correct. Okay, okay.

Like we are talking about Krishna as a crisis leader, managing leader or drama. That kind of thing. So if you ask me two options.

Would you like to have complete mundane values taught without bringing any spirituality or religion or God or anything that I would consider it dead completely. On the other hand there is a spiritual material means body, mind, soul where we bring from Ramayana, Mahabharata, Srimad Bhagavatam. This is one of my future goals.

I will be devoting quite a bit of my time in this direction in leadership and management principles in small small videos I want to make in future. I have already made ten of them recently. I would like to make more of them and reach to all the leaders and open the eyes of the leaders to see what wonderful leader or drama that Krishna and great Rajarishi kings were in the Vedic times.

There is abundant things to learn from them. So the beauty of this teaching is it is in one sense directly Krishna conscious and still they are interested because it helps them in their workplace. Therefore they will be interested.

So like recently I did one programme for NHRD, you know National Human Resource Development. You know more than a hundred top notch leaders came for the programme. You know they had given one hour time and after one hour they were not ready to leave asking many many many questions.

It became one hour fifteen minutes, one hour twenty minutes. They said please again come. We would like to learn more.

It's all from Ramayana. From Lord Rama and Vanaras how they were dealing, team playing. So you will see that even so called karmis are non devotees.

We think they are non devotees but that is only like ashes covering a red hot pool. Like that you blow it. Immediately you find the red hot pool.

The love of Krishna is hidden in the heart of everybody. We just have to blow off the ash like you know so called atheistic coverings over that and bring out that Krishna consciousness. Many people in the chat I saw they wrote Oh we admire Lord Ram.

Now I never read Ramayana. Now I'm going to read Ramayana. People wrote like that.

Beautiful. So now are there, so you talk about two kinds of bridging. Say bridging is one is where we use some spiritual resources or resources from our own tradition and then with that we provide people what they need.

Yeah. So Even our NOI book Nectar of Instruction can be used for colleges. Yeah.

Yes yes definitely. That's at least the first few words are very clear and yeah. So now just expanding the say the ambit of the framework a little bit.

I have also been using the epics for writing articles, Mahabharata, Ramayana to convey. I don't use the word self-help. I use human values.

Okay. I mean I don't mind using the word self-help but what I am seeing is that I am teaching human values along with spiritual values. Correct.

So so now the two things first is that one of my books was reviewed in Times of India and the author said that this is a very good book but he said that all of it the book is well written, the stories are well analysed but at the end everything concludes in Bhakti. So if you are interested in that kind of presentation then this is a good read. Otherwise give it a skip.

So I told I told Giriraj Maharaj about this and he said that's exactly our purpose. Correct. That's the goal of human form of life.

Yeah. I was thinking that that itself may alienate some people but then if it's going to alienate some people then maybe those are the people who may not really be interested in spirituality. So can there be, so do you have some kind of proportion? What I try to do is that say if I am giving a presentation to say in Princeton or somewhere like that so I try to say it's like 50% Sattva about 25% spirituality and depending on audience I may bring in 25% Bhakti.

So now it's not a mathematical thing but that's how I orient myself. Bhakti I'll bring in depending on how much, Bhakti I mean chanting of the holy names as mantra meditation or I can actually when people are not averse to Krishna it's only when we present that this is God and you have to accept it. That is actually fanaticism.

Yeah. Krishna is the the yogic vision of the divine as the all attractive embodiment of love. Correct.

So that way people are quite open to it. Yes. So that way I try to maintain a proportion like that 50-25 mostly Sattva of course everybody can appreciate Sattva.

Exactly. And then you bring in something so now this is within one class. Correct.

Now it's not always possible but do you have some kind of proportion or balance so that you can have a progression going on? We have to make sure that people feel that the seminar cater to their need also while we are giving them because otherwise they will feel cheated. They will think that these fellows have come with an agenda. You know they want to promote their mantra.

You know they want to promote their ISKCON movement. They will think like that. So therefore we have to make like for example if I have to give a topic on art of harnessing mind power.

I am very clear about things. For example I will introduce the chariot or the body analogy. You know chariot and the horse and the mind and intelligence mechanism.

So many people feel very happy that they learned this. Today. So they have understood how the and then when you want to go to the mind then we tell about Gigo principle.

Good in, good out. Garbage in, garbage out. Then we tell a three point formula for how to get rid of the bad habits.

So people find it very very helpful. This kind of tips also. And also we tell them you know we tell about the nature of the mind, the functioning of the mind.

You know when we explain like two things Abhyasa and Vairagya how these principles can be applied in our life. Some practical solution. And we have analogies like the tortoise analogy Krishna gives.

Serpent with poisonous tooth example. These examples are available in the Bhagavad Gita purports. So with analogies and examples we help them understand the functioning of the mind and its connection to the senses and the intelligence.

So this will be like almost I would say 75% of my talk. So people are satisfied that I learned something substantial about the mind is like a microprocessor and senses are like servo motors. And intelligence is like a CPU.

Central processing unit. So when they understand these kind of things they feel that oh I got the handle of the problem now. Recently I was speaking on this mind chatter.

Stopping the mind chatter because one of the things people want to learn the most nowadays. How to sleep well. Many people.

So this will also be one of the talks. So while giving all these things then I will definitely tell in the lecture that all this knowledge what I am giving you is found in Bhagavad Gita as it is by His Divine Grace His Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. And in 6th chapter you will find more information about this.

And also Jitatmana Prasanthatma verse is a very important verse. The dualities. How they come in.

If you are going to counteract them in our life, counteracting dualities all our energy, time, our emotion everything goes in that. You know. Therefore you have to learn 2.14 Matras Prasastu.

You know. So these kind of things they have a good blend of what they are looking for and what we also want to authentically present. I would never say that this much present, that much present.

Every point we make should have something benefits them and something from the scriptures that we want to give. It should be very homogenous. And I will not quote the Mahamantra.

I will not quote the Mahamantra if a company has specially told me that please don't. Like I had sent my slideshow to one company. They told this Mahamantra slide which you have got.

Please remove this. Otherwise some Christians, they will not like it. So I remove it and I don't quote.

I generally tell them in every path there is chanting of the God's name. Muslims, Christians. You can also do whatever is comfortable for you.

You can do. So there is some amount of audience sensitivity. But when you say it's homogenous means are you saying it's a smoothly flowing or what is the word homogenous? Homogenous, it should be a blend of you know harmonious? Harmonious.

Actually both should go hand in hand I would say. Like for example, I am telling about this charity of the body example. I will certainly quote this from Kathopanishad.

I will quote that. Okay. And this example is given.

But they find this example very handy to apply in their life. That's true. When I am giving example of CPU and you know microprocessor and servo motors that is familiar.

So therefore we say go from familiar to unfamiliar. That's true. That's true.

Yeah. Now, this is in one sense in India where people already know the Ramayana and Mahabharata. To use traditional resources is relatively easy.

Correct. If we consider the broader world perspective Yeah. So there different kinds of bridges may be required.

Yes. And it's in the west and I have seen Radhanath Maharaj also take some stories from like even the Pushyabhishek postulate is there. It's mostly western people are there.

But he does tell stories of Krishna and the flower and the fruit vendor or Shabari. He does tell some stories. Now I check with devotees in the west.

Now how much can these stories be told in the west? So I got two different responses. At one level there is unfamiliarity. So we may have to spend a good amount of time to tell the stories.

Metaphors and analogies, they are universally applicable. Maybe explain them a little bit more. But they are not that difficult.

Stories also, unless the stories involve lots of characters and lot of complex plot lines, they can also be told. But it does involve some amount of unfamiliarity. So now with respect to bridging, like earlier you talked about nature and so the eco-village is a place where we are doing bridging through the environment.

So there are many different ways in which bridges can be built. So now one major area we discussed was self-help. Another area which we could explore further but you just mentioned it here is the environment.

People who are eco-friendly and who are concerned about environment. So we can present to them. I think yoga is also one bridge.

People are interested in yoga and health and things like that. So what areas of bridge outreach do you feel are promising for us to expand our movement? Yeah, actually anybody embarking on sattva, you know, actually nowadays all across the globe many gurus are promoting sattva, sattvic lifestyle and pranayama, breathing exercises, yoga. Actually they are doing very good homework for us.

They actually bring people from very very downtrodden situation to a sattvic platform they are bringing. At that time people start asking questions. Who am I? Why this world is created? You know, who is God? And we are right there with our Prabhupada books.

To give people the knowledge. And one more interesting thing I am finding, many of the gurus are not opposed to people coming to ISKCON. Another interesting thing I found you know, like I heard that Sri Sri Praveshankarji has spoken a whole lecture on, you know, glorifying Prabhupada.

Yeah, he basically appreciated how Prabhupada was so diligent in following the spiritual master. That is example of, you know, Guru Shraddha in Guru and that was… Yeah, so in this way you find that there are many organisations now, they are teaching sattvic, good number of them are teaching sattvic lifestyle. So, and now I would say three steps.

First step is sattvic lifestyle. And then for sattvic people they become very concerned about healthy living. So we tell them, come and take prasada.

And you see, we are dancing also. If you go for a stress management seminar, they even tell the managers to run from one wall to other wall, 20 times you run and come back because they want to bring the child out of the managers. Many managers get cooked up in their head due to heavy management.

So they make them run to and fro. But I tell the people, instead of running foolishly from one wall to another wall, you come and dance in our kirtans. All your stress will evaporate, you know.

So many corporate people are very happy nowadays. I find they come to Iskcon temples. Many of them come in shorts also.

They come and dance in the kirtan. They eat very healthy prasadam. And they like the music, devotional music.

And they like to meet with devotees who are very ego-friendly. So I would say that we have a very big scope now because of the current world situation. And we actually we can, I said only three levels.

What is the lowest level is bringing people to the sattva which many are already doing. Now from sattva to take them here, we can make them more responsible. We'll tell them that okay, you are doing breathing exercise.

You are also doing pranayama and all. It is very good. But please know who you are.

The real self, self-awareness. We can have one programme where we teach about the soul and how the soul is Nayanam Chintam Shastrani. It cannot be cut to pieces.

It's real personality. So we can bring them to the basics of spiritual life. That is the second stage.

And once some people are ready to come to that stage, then we can take them through the Krishna conscious training. After that. In one sense, what I mentioned is sattva, then atma and Bhagwan or bhakti.

Correct. I said sattvic, spiritual and devotional. That's what I meant.

Something similar. Correct. And again here also probably we will experience the same through which Krishna says that Manushya naam sahasresu kashi jati siddhaye.

We will have a large number of people who may come to sattva and a few to filter over to bhakti. Yeah. It's going to be there in every path.

Yeah. In the Chaturveda also the Artho Jignasu, Artharthi Jnani the Jignasu is searching for the soul. Knowledge of soul.

And Jnani is searching for knowledge of God because he already knows about the soul. So the Jignasu is searching for the difference between soul and body and Jnani is searching for soul and supersoul sambandha. So these two are very good category of people for us.

Our good audience for us. Okay. And there is some amount of, so you are saying that there are lots of avenues for bridge outreach so broadly we can explore in whatever situation we are in.

What are the ways people are coming to sattva? And then we can channel those ways to actually get people to rise further from sattva to spirituality. I was in Australia so there on top of a mountain they have a big farm. Okay.

Hundreds and hundreds of acres. So what they did was in one of the surest cures not surest one of the surest as well as one of the safest non-intrusive cures for depression. What is we talk about? Equine therapy.

Equine therapy means you go and take care of a horse. You go to a stable and you know take care of the horse, feed it, learn to ride it if required. But not so much riding, just take care of the horse.

So what the devotees have done is they are now, now equine therapy is well demonstrated, I mean well documented with research and other things. They are trying to do the same thing with bovine therapy. You come and take care of cows.

Okay. And that will also help you overcome your depression. And they have got very good results in that.

Okay. The whole idea what happens is that people already have some attraction for animals, for pets and in some ways when they take care of something beyond themselves. Selflessly.

That itself gives them a sense of self-worth. Yeah, I can do something worthwhile that gets them out of their head. Yes.

Otherwise depression is just one is caught in the head and this is wrong with me, that is wrong with me, that thing happened to me. Yeah. So that is quite a, so equine therapy was there but now they are using it bovine therapy.

Correct. That was quite creative. So that could also be, so whichever place we are in, we can find out where people can, what can bring people to sattva and then take them from there further to bhakti or to atma and then bhakti.

Correct. That's true, yeah. That's true.

And now there are two, three situations I would like to outline and then we can discuss about those specifically. See, there are some aspects of maybe our philosophy and our presentation, maybe more than our philosophy which seem to militate against the values of self-help. For example, when people want to have self-help, they want to be successful and they want to be happy.

Yeah. But then sometimes our teaching can seem very world-rejecting. And this is simply a place of distress and you cannot be happy in this world.

In fact, the more you seek happiness in the world, you'll end up with distress. when we, there are certain you could say, premises with which self-help operates. We can improve our life in the world and we can become happier.

Yes. On the other hand, if there are certain aspects, the dukkhalaya aspect, seeking happiness as a source of pleasure, that our happiness is destined and we can't change anything in this world. So, there are some aspects of our philosophy that seem to militate against self-help.

So, how do we address that? Actually, it all depends on the maturity of the presenter. I tell people that I came to ISKCON for two reasons. One, I went to more than a dozen organisations before.

What deeply touched my heart was these two. One is, ISKCON is an organisation which teaches us to share what we have received with the world. Like, Ramanujacharya climbed on the top of Gopuram and distributed the mantra that he got.

Correct, no? Similarly, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu told Nithyananda Pooja to go out and preach the message. So, one is actually, don't go to the Himalayan forest and live alone and for your own moksha, but do something for the world. So, this is one reason I joined, that it is a we should live in the heart of the city and help the suffering souls.

That is what impressed me very much. Second thing, our movement is not a denial movement. It is actually, chodana nahi hai, jodana hai.

Like that we say everything. For example, you know, I use my eyes to see Krishna. See Krishna, see Krishna.

I use my eyes to see him. Our children sing, you know. I use my ears to hear about Krishna.

So, Ambarish Maharaj used all his senses in Lord's service. So, there are many organisations which tell you to deny, but we don't teach to deny. There are very few organisations in today's world who do that.

Non-existent. You know, sometimes we say chant. Buddhism, for example.

The world rejecting aspect of Buddhism is almost non-existent today. Is it Vipassana meditation? No. They present Vipassana as a means of succeeding in the world.

So, the sadhana itself might be okay, calm your mind, just negate everything. In Vipassana, you cannot chant, you cannot talk. Let me complete this point.

I agree with you. There is the content of the practise and there is the intent of the practise. Yeah, correct.

In terms of the content, Vipassana is quite sense denying, world denying. So, in one sense, it can help some people to come to sattva. Not everyone.

It is difficult for most people. It may help some people to come to sattva. But my point is that Vipassana meditation has been used by people to again go back into the world and then perform better in the world.

So, my point is not that we cannot engage senses in bhakti, but there are certain fundamental principles or fundamental teachings of our philosophy. Do they go against self-help or you are saying that… They don't go. They don't go at all according to me.

I will tell you why they don't go. See, Arjuna is a karma yogi. And Krishna told him not to give up the work.

In fact, he told him, you have to fight. You know, he told… In fact, Arjuna was proposing an idea of denying the work and running away from responsibility. In fact, Krishna is condemning that very vehemently.

So, we can quote that example also. Arjuna is a family man. He has children.

No, no, no. I think… I am not talking about world rejection. I am talking about philosophical principles.

Philosophical principles in this world are three principles I mentioned. That your happiness is destined, that the world is dukkhalaya, and the search for pleasure leads to trouble. I will exactly tell you correspondingly to each of this.

Let us go one by one. The first one I was telling about denial. Denial means what? People generally say, and the three monkeys, you know, they close their eyes, close their ears, close their mouth, don't speak.

Our movement actually talks about performing effectively in this world. So, whenever it comes to denial, I would give this example. Mother tells the child, Hey, don't touch the knife.

Hey, child, don't touch the fire. Hey, don't go out alone. So, the mother preventing the child from doing those things is to safeguard the child so that he will not destroy himself.

Similarly, whenever the scriptures tell us, don't do this, don't do that, it is ultimately for our long-term well-being. Sorry to interrupt you. I am just trying to understand which of the three points I mentioned is connected with denial.

Because I didn't use the word denial at all. Yeah, the denial was the previous point which you made. I was selling examples for this now.

Now, let us come to this example of the fixed destiny. We will come to that. That your happiness, pleasure and pain are fixed in your destiny.

You should not… So, how I tell this example, I will tell you. Say, our physical body has limits of temperature. If my body temperature goes beyond 25, my body will… I will need a fan or a cooler.

If it goes below 10 degrees Celsius, then I will need to have some warmth. You understand, no? So, in this way, you find that my physical body has a limit, mind has a limit. In the same manner, for example, if I can drive it up to 80 or 100 kilometres per hour.

But if I drive it at 150, then I will hurt myself. In the same manner, I ask the people, do you all agree that there are people who are not as handsome as you? Everybody will raise hand. Yes, yes, I am very handsome.

There are many people inferior to me. Then I ask them, do you agree there are people more handsome than you? Yes. Are there people poorer than you? Yes.

Are there people more richer than you? Yes. So, in this world, our body is like a particular model car. Somebody's body is like a Luna, somebody's body is like a Maruti, somebody's like a Benz.

That I tell them. Okay, okay. Even if you are Luna, if you are going on a race, if a helicopter comes and picks you up, it's called Nirupadi Kripa, we call it.

If it picks up, then you can become better than Benz. That means God can change your destiny. We may not change ourselves.

So, you make one plus infinity. That's what Arjuna did. Arjuna could not have killed Bhishma.

Arjuna could not have been able to kill other great warriors like Karna. And how he could do that? Because he connected with God. That's called empowerment.

Empowerment means what? M means mercy. Mercy power. That's M power.

So, I tell people that. Basically, I mean, we can go into the philosophical explanation of this point, but what you are saying is that these points literally they could be misapplied to seem pessimistic or world rejecting or world denying, but understood properly, explained properly, then they are not actually world rejecting or world denying or pessimistic. Yes.

And there is one more one more direction to this. For example, there was a tortoise and rabbit which had a competition. Everybody knows.

But when tortoise understood, I am a situational leader in water and rabbit is a situational leader in land. So, what the tortoise proposed, next time let us keep the flag on the other side of the river. He kept the flag as a target.

So, rabbit very fast ran up to the beginning of the river and then when he saw the water, he was like, he was like standing, he didn't know what to do, he became frozen. But the tortoise slowly, slowly, slowly came to and then dropped into the river and he became the winner. So, this is another point I tell people.

Find out which is, which amongst the seven types of intelligences you have. Slim bill, you know, spatial visual and all that, you know, linguistic, you know. So, find out and there in that area you are situational leader because that is God's gift to you and you are not utilising your full potential and unnecessarily comparing yourself with somebody else and because of that you are hurting yourself.

So, you are saying that when you talk about our happiness being fixed or it's more in terms of self acceptance not in terms of self limitation. This is what I have and if I utilise this, I can improve. If I have a car, if I have a car, I can't compete with the plane.

But if it's a car, I can go. Yes, correct. So, it's not so much like a self limitation, it's more of a self acceptance.

Self acceptance also people may consider it a little derogatory word. You know, self acceptance may be thought of to be, okay, this is what I can do, just be happy with that. They may think like that.

Instead we can tell them, you have an innate unique potential. One example I'll tell you, in Rig Veda, Rig Veda there is a story. Once a squirrel came out of a mountain hole and he heard loud laughter, ha ha ha ha somebody and he looked behind the mountain with all its forest on the top of it was laughing.

So, the squirrel asked them, told the mountain, my dear mountain, I know you can carry forest on your back. I know you are great, but you can't crack a nut which I can. Like that he said.

So, this is called self esteem. So, you can do something. For example, I have five fingers.

This finger is for challenge. This finger is for indicating somebody. And this is the longest finger.

And this finger is a gold ring. And this finger may feel inferiority complex, so I can't do anything. But you can tell people that something this finger can do, nobody else can do is this one.

So, this way you have to give them confidence that God has created you uniquely. Like the squirrel and the Hanuman. So, by focussing on this area, they don't worry about what destiny holds for me.

They become free from that anxiety. Okay. And what is the one point? What is the second one? No, I mean, I think all three are in the similar direction and all three can be explained.

I don't want to go into that. So, what you are saying is that the contradiction might only be more of superficial and based on a misunderstanding. Yes.

It makes sense. And when you talk about, say, I mentioned that the more we pursue pleasure that causes pain, that is more in terms of particular kinds of pleasure. Not entirely that we are meant to be unhappy, but just like if you overeat, you will suffer.

If you drink, you will have to suffer. But that doesn't mean that you are meant to be unhappy. Correct.

Explain each of these points in a way. So, there is no intrinsic philosophical contradiction between the idea of self-development and the idea of this, of you say, self-transcendence or we are going beyond this world because it is Bukhalaya. So, that can be adjusted.

So, that's philosophically. Actually, we have to present the philosophy in a way that there can be a great hero or a heroine even in the material world. Okay.

Like Arjuna, Yudhishthira Maharaj, Ambrish Maharaj. It's not that Krishna's devotees are poor people. They have been running the whole world practically.

Okay. Makes sense. Yeah.

So, now another point here in this direction. So, there are some bridges which in which the results may not manifest immediately. So, for example, Prabhupada wanted the Bhaktivanta Institute.

And in the Bhaktivanta Institute, it's unlikely that a person who is a hardcore scientist or a person who is a serious scientist, in general, it is intellectuals take their time to commit to a particular cause and then after that also they may want their own space and they may want to have their own positions. So, some bridges, say for example, a scientist, a prominent scientist by the efforts of scientific outreach, simply accepting that yes, there is a God and the conception of God or the conception of Atma talked in the Bhagavad Gita is, it makes sense. Yes.

So, even if somebody so, in some cases, by some bridges, say when somebody is doing a scientific conference or somebody is doing scientific outreach, if people come all the way to bhakti, that's wonderful. But in some cases, the bridge itself may be such that the purpose may not be to bring people to bhakti. It's not our purpose, but that may not be a probable thing to happen.

So, it may be that we could say, if we envision again a pyramid, even if some people appreciate, appreciate bhakti, I think, appreciate Krishna's movement, appreciate Krishna's wisdom, and if they are influential in their own fields, then that itself could be a form of bridge where you could say, it's almost like that they may not come across the bridge, but in one sense, their words may inspire others to come across the bridge. That's very acceptable. That's wonderful it is.

For example, somebody is a very big director of a college. He may not chant Hare Krishna, you know, he may not be able to follow all the four regs strictly and all, but you know, he says that, oh, I really appreciate you, you people, Hare Krishna people, you very scientifically present your teachings and all. I am very happy.

I will arrange a programme for you for 2000 students in our college. Please come and give in the auditorium. We will put up a programme.

So, he's doing it. That means he's doing seva. That is also seva actually.

So, the goal of our preaching should be ultimately either a person chants one mala at least Hare Krishna and he follows four regs. He offers some kind of support to the organisation by either giving proposal, the two successors proposal. One is somebody gives donation or somebody becomes a dedicated devotee.

Either of the two. So, now the third thing you can also consider, which is somebody acts in a way favourable to giving opportunity to thousand people to hear about Krishna's message. You know, he may not become himself a devotee, but he may assist.

There are many donors who give crores of rupees to build a temple. They may not come often. Once in a blue moon they may visit the temple.

But they are making, helping us make a temple where thousands of people come and benefit. So, that is also acceptable. Yeah.

So, in one sense we can say that much of Prabhupada's preaching in India, where it's mostly people became life members. Hardly very few people became devotees during Prabhupada's preaching in India. But the life members helped him in, they assisted in enormous ways.

So, in one sense that was a bridge which Prabhupada built and they made a very significant significant number of people and people of influence as well-wishers. Yes. So, that is also, there could be some bridges which may not lead all the way to Krishna.

No, we have to ask ourselves the question, why am I preaching to a particular audience? We have to ask that question. For example, I am going to a company where 300 people attend the programme. I give them something about dealership or something and then I go my way, they go their way.

Then, that means it's an aimless programme. So, there has to be some clear-cut understanding of why am I going, where I am going, why am I doing this particular programme. For example, somebody is a very rich man.

So, if I cultivate him as a devotee, we try to give him some Krishna consciousness. Eventually, after six months, one year, we don't even ask for money. When his heart is satisfied, you know, he starts giving.

So, his best way he can connect with our movement is by giving money. Pranai, rarte, diya, vacha, shreya, acharanam, sada. So, everybody has something with them by which they can serve Krishna.

And if you can make them bring that to Krishna, that is success of preaching. Okay. Like somebody is poor but they have intelligence, they can preach.

When somebody has money, then they can give money. Somebody has land, they can give a land for building a temple of Krishna. Somebody is a scientist, he can appreciate our activities and give us a chance to preach to students.

So, here we could say that there is another form of bridging that one thing is we address people's needs and then we bring them to Krishna. Another we could say is that we attract people to offer their resources. Exactly.

And that is also seva. That is also service. Yes.

They are also benefiting because they are giving something to Krishna and they are growing by that. It is slightly different. So, this Krishna says in the 12.78910 verses in Bhagavad Gita.

11th verse he says you know that just give for some higher cause. Exactly. And in some ways you could say Prabhupada's interaction, the alliance work was like that.

Exactly. He never became a committed devotee in our sense of the word. But he introduced Prabhupada to 2000 hippies sitting in Avalon Ballroom.

Yes. Prabhupada told him to speak and sing also. Yeah, that's true.

So, now will it also depend on say bridge preaching is to be done. One is we discussed about the need because the world is changing. Can it also be that different devotees themselves may have different dispositions.

So, some devotees may not feel inclined to say push others to start chanting holy name. How many rounds are you chanting? Are you increasing the rounds? So, everybody has their own disposition. So, could it be that some people are more disposed for are likely to be more disposed for particular kinds of outreach? Could that also be like that? Some people prefer seed sowing we call it.

You go in a helicopter and throw seeds in the ground and then you are not there to reap the results. You know. So, he told us, Jayaprakash Maharaj says Shoshyatam Grihamagatham.

He says, Shoshyatam Grihamagatham. The meaning is, if you have sown the seed wait till you reap the result and bring. Like that he says.

If you can do that, it is best. If you can't do that if you are more convinced that even if I distribute little bit of some people going from downtrodden animalistic instinctive platform to a platform of sattva. If people are becoming, that will also make this world a better world.

If somebody thinks and he that's the kind of preaching they may be able to do. You know. That is certainly one type of preaching.

In Brahmanas also in the Vedic times actually they learned astrology. You know. They learned medicine.

They learned justice. How to do all this. So, Brahmanas also would speak all these things.

Like Chanakya for example gives political advice. You know. But ultimately the Brahmana's core personality is he is actually a very strong spiritualist.

He has a firm faith. I am not the body. I am the soul.

While giving to others if he is not bringing. Now when it comes to Vaishnava devotee of the Lord. Vaishnava's heart is burning.

They are thinking that Jivas are all separated from Krishna and they are suffering. Bringing them to sattva is good. But if I leave them at this point, they may get connected to some Mayavadi movement.

Then they may become Mayavadis and that would be a great disservice. Therefore, if you are bringing people to sattva they also should get exposed. What I would do in case I am one such person.

I would make sure to introduce him to Prabhupada and Bhagavad Gita as it is. You know. And I would tell that his contemplates are there.

Like for example, Steve Jobs says he used to go to his contemplate to regularly take prasadam. We can quote that example. Please come to his contemplate and take prasad.

You know. You serve Krishna by eating prasad. Please come.

So, in this way by doing by telling the people, we are giving them a connection which they may or may not accept. But by not giving connection are we not cheating them? Well, cheating might be too strong a word. Because in some cases I think you are depriving them.

No. Mentioning that connection itself might alienate some people. Like say in the west some people are very strongly against institutionalised religion.

So then as soon as we mention a religious institution then that raises their heckles. And then after that they just don't want to move forward. Then we can do two things.

We can have one personality where we give people this kind of general things and bring them to sattva and all that. Then we also can off from the stage. There are many people who become fond of you.

For them you can hold a separate retreat. Two days, three days retreat where you give them these things. By that you are So I am not understanding.

So how are you connecting? What I am saying is for example I am giving a programme where thousand people are attending. Now at the end of the programme I also say that beside this type of corporate programmes I also do retreats. I am doing a weekend retreat.

You are saying that the connection, there should be some connection for people to move ahead. In an institution it can be in the form of Prabhupada. That person himself can do.

So it can be in terms of connecting with themselves also. That is true. In some ways, Stephen Covey is very well known for his seven habits of highly successful people.

Seven habits of highly effective people. He was actually a hardcore Mormon. He is a pastor's son.

He has written a book called Divine Centre where he goes very core into Christian principles. Even the eighth habit also, from goodness to greatness. Yeah.

So he didn't, so at one level he is speaking something which everybody can appreciate, everybody can gain. But there are other books in which he is giving higher things also. Basically he is saying that if people are getting connected to us and we are at a particular level, then where it is more of preliminary level, there should be some way by which they can be moving ahead.

Exactly. At least they know it. At least they are aware.

Such opportunity is there. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Now, recently His Holiness Giriraj Swamy Maharaj was giving us a lecture in Pune online. So one question came about bridging topics, you know. So Maharaj said bridging topics are good, but there are some people who take people to the bridge and they just hang around showing the river water how it is flowing, showing the mountains and showing the trees and they may just hang around the bridge and they feel like hanging around the bridge for the whole life, you know.

And then people just hang around, that's all. He said and that is not good, he was telling. The purpose of the bridge is to go to the other side and at least people should be shown that, okay, you saw the river, you saw the bridge, okay, you go like this and this is the way you show.

Like that he was telling and I am making the same point. Yeah, okay. That's true.

And now, so that is perfectly reasonable. Are there some bridges, so for one danger in bridge bridging we could say is that we don't provide people a pathway ahead and then people, as you said, people just stay stuck or there is no legacy left the moment water gets watered down and lost. Yes.

Could be one danger. Yes. Now, are there any other precautionary measures? One thing I felt is that bridge bridging is not everybody's, you could say, cup of herbal tea.

Correct. Only few are gifted. Yeah.

Few are gifted with the talent. Yeah. Correct.

So, you are talking this more in terms of talent. I was also thinking in terms of more of spiritual substance also. Actually, there are three types of people.

There are people who can study spiritual subjects and present only spiritually and they just cannot do bridging and all. They say either you follow very strongly they present. There are good number of devotees like that.

Then there are people who actually are smart enough to, you know, be a very strong spiritualist. At the same time, speak on bridging topics and inspire people to come to the path of spirituality. And then there are people who talk on bridging topics and gradually go more and more and more into self-help and more and more into very goody-goody living and everything.

And then what happens is their time, their energy, especially the chitta, the heart will flow in that direction over a period of time. Then we may become a different type of person also. It's very likely.

Because, you know, whatever the prolonged exposure produces the impressions in the mind. So, therefore, we should not lose our souls. Like what Jesus said, you know, what profit to the man if he gains the whole world, but he loses his own soul, he said.

Like if somebody tells me, oh, this picture is very nice, but if you want it, you have to give your two eyes. If somebody says, you know, what's the use of the picture for me? After getting the picture, my eyes are gone. How will I see it? So, therefore, especially the third category people who are going to be only propagating, they have to be rooted.

Therefore, I would say they should be in touch with the spiritual master. It should be done with the blessing of the spiritual master and confirmation of the spiritual master and regular reporting should be there. And spiritual master should be satisfied that this person is spiritually also sound.

Okay. And that is very safe. Then a person is doing on the order of Guru, then nobody can blame.

Otherwise, one can get lost in teaching only the mundane values without giving any spirituality and one can get lost. That is very risky. And that is risky not only for the individual.

See, not only it's risky for the individual, for all his followers, you know, they were deprived of Krishna consciousness in that lifetime because they were given a sleeping pill. I mean, not sleeping pill, they were given a painkiller. Instead of the medicine, they were given painkiller.

Say, for example, I have like a lakh people whom I hold with me and I go on, one lakh people with me and I give them all painkiller, painkiller, painkiller year after year after year. You know, I don't give them the medicine. So, I have cheated them of getting the real medicine and curing the disease.

So, therefore, these people should remember this that I have to safeguard myself and I should also not deprive Krishna consciousness for these poor fellows. At some point of time, they should make a plan how to make sure that they are made aware. So, either they get a copy of Bhagavad Gita, you know, or they get a spiritual connection to some local preacher and things like that.

Yeah, that's the third category. Otherwise, the first and second category of people are good number in Krishna consciousness. So, the first is, they present spiritual matter directly.

Directly and they speak Bhagavatam, Bhagavad Gita, you know, they give Bhakti Shastri courses and all and they will never go for any bridging classes. And second is? And second category of people, they do spiritual classes, Bhakti Shastri, training devotees and everything. When they go to new, non-devotee type of people, I mean new people, they do appropriately.

Appropriately and also they give them spiritual connection. They give. Okay.

Third is, they don't give any. Okay, that's the general. There are some, but, I mean, the third is definitely a risky venture.

But then, you know, there are some areas where if a person wants to be influential in the third, they have to avoid the, I mean, they have, they sometimes have to avoid the spiritual connection. Say, like, say, now the devotees who enter into academia, they want to enter into mainstream intellectual discourse. Say, devotees who want to go into scientific outreach.

So, I have talked with several devotees who come from a traditional background or who are spiritually committed. Sometimes in the mainstream academia, there is a suspicion that you have come here. To give something.

Yeah, you have come here to preach your ideology. And in that sense, they have this, the atheists, they have this satire. They say, who is the scientist? Scientist says, this is the evidence.

What is the theory to explain the evidence? But what is the religious science? Working backwards. So, yeah, you see this evidence and find a theory to explain it. But who is the religious scientist? Religious scientist says, this is the theory.

Where is the evidence to support it? So, now, with this approach, now, of course, I don't agree. It's a caricature. Because everybody has some ideology.

They are atheistic scientists. They are openly atheistic. And they do their research to support their atheism.

So, in that sense, nobody is absolutely ideologically a blank. We all have our preconceptions which shape how we look at the world. Somehow, religious preconceptions are considered far more serious disqualifications for objective research than other kinds of things.

So, what happens is, for some people, for them to reveal their spirituality, especially their personal spiritual connection with a particular tradition, that becomes very difficult. In that connection, I'll tell you one good news for all the bridge preachers, which I found out only in the last few years. I found out.

Like, every institution has two types of programmes. One is official programme, arranged during the official hours. And it is a chargeable programme also.

It's a, you know, some payment also they make. And attendance is mandatory for such a programme, for everybody like that. And there is another programme, unofficial programme, voluntary programme.

Like, for example, Infosys has one what you call, wellness club. You know. And they put up a programme, 200 Infosys, you know, people come.

It's a wellness club, health club. So, out of these two I found, in wellness club programme, when they call me, we don't fix any money for that. We do it as a charitable programme.

We do it free for them. And it is outside the company hours, like evening time. And it is a free programme, where you can even chant Mahamantra.

You can tell about ISKCON also. You can even keep a book table also. You know, if they want to take some proper books, they can take.

You know, like in IIT also, I had gone, they have one, what you call it, tech club, they call it. I don't remember. I understand what you are saying is.

They asked me, where is Mridangam? Swamiji, you have come without Mridangam, Karkal. We thought you will do Kirtan, they were saying. All the professors were sitting, there were almost 500-600 students and professors.

And they have come with their wives, children. It's a cultural type of programme. So, I could do a college programme.

I could do in the evening time, in a cultural type of programme, I can do. Nowadays, many educated people are very, very open-minded and good number of them come for such programmes. So, what you are saying is that if certain avenues restrict us, we don't have to stick to only those avenues.

Correct. So, I agree with you. That point is very true.

That organisations are very cautious about programmes which are organised officially by the institution. And there are programmes which are organised individually by the members of the institution. Correct.

So, there they give freedom. Exactly. You can invite, you can publicise if you want.

Exactly. It's a programme, you can say, it's a programme in Intel, but it's not a programme organised by Intel. Exactly.

Yeah. So, you can say that if there are certain forums where things are very restrictive, better avoid those forums and go to some other forums. And for both, the same number comes.

I have seen. Oh, okay. Yeah.

So, that's a very nice way of looking at it. Now, similarly, in some ways, if a person goes very much into the zone of self-help, quite often people feel suspicious that this is a front by which you ultimately want to convert me. So, that's why sometimes people have to consciously hide that, okay, I am not here to convert you.

I am here only to assist you, to help you. So, that fear of conversion is there. So, sometimes it becomes like, just to be more influential at a particular place, you have to hide your connections to your spiritual tradition.

Then it becomes a little bit problematic. So, any thoughts on this? As long as you are seen as a non-sectarian person, we will invite you to our companies and we will give you invitations for talks and we will pay you for the talks. But if you start thinking that you are a sectarian person belonging to a particular sect and teaching its ideology, even if you are teaching it here to us, but if that's what you are doing, then we don't want you here.

So, then it becomes something of a problem. I wouldn't want to go to such a place at all. Like, one example I'll tell you, I am going to, when I went to America, there was a programme arranged in Amazon, you know, one of the devotees in Seattle.

So, there were around 80 to 100 people were there, you know. So, you know what I spoke on? Three gunas I spoke. Praja guna, tamma guna, sattva guna, art of smart work, you know, about working in sattva and how sattva helps you to have a, you know, you can use the free will very nicely, effectively and not act instinctively and all that.

So, it was very much appreciated. People sat through, it was one hour they gave, almost it became two hours, including question and answers. Nobody got up.

So, now what I would say is, you know, the world is very large and, you know, we have abundant avenues. So, why should we go to those avenues where people are suspicious and restrictive and, you know, doubtfully you have come with some ideology. So, there are, I would leave that place and go to another place where I am welcomed.

Why to waste time in this place? Here, anyway, if it is going to be too restrictive, I may not be able to make any devotees, then better go to a place where, I mean, where equally like Amazon is a good place, correct no? You know, Amazon, already I have two boys there, whom I know very well. So, two or three boys are there already and now, I told all the people, these are the two or three friends I know very well. I am in touch with them.

Any of you wish to know more about this or you want some spiritual books and all, they can provide you. I introduce them also and that freedom is there. So, I go to such places.

See, one thing I will tell you, I have an identity. I am a sadhu. A sadhu should show mercy and what is the mercy? Our mercy is to connect them to the Supreme Father.

You know, their dear most friend, Krishna Subramaniam, Krishna. So, Amazon is allowing me to do such a programme because they are benefiting. Otherwise, why are they calling me? I am actually teaching them something which helps them in their workplace.

So, they are also benefiting and I am also benefiting. I am benefiting how? By giving them a spiritual connection, they will eventually become devotee and it is voluntary. It is not mandatory.

Similarly, they are calling me to come and give a lecture. They are benefiting. I didn't ask a single penny for my lecture.

I am doing it actually freely. That's a charitable thing. I told them, I am a sadhu.

If you give something, I will accept. If you don't give anything, bye-bye, no problem. We are happy.

You gave us a chance to say something from Bhagavad Gita. We taught you. And Bhagavad Gita is not a mundane book or religious book or anything.

Bhagavad Gita has very scientifically presented, you know, concepts and all which will help you in your daily life and at the same time, Bhagavad Gita teaches the topmost thing. Love is the last word in transcendence. Prabhupada writes.

There is nothing beyond love in this world. If somebody says, why are you teaching bhakti? Bhakti means love. So, I will ask them, that means you don't want to love all in this world? Love God and love all.

That's what Bhagavad Gita teaches. So, Krishna says that. So, what you are saying is, overall, if people have reservations, often it is because of their own conceptions.

But if there are universal values being taught, if you focus on universal values, then many times, what are suspicions people have, they may be actually minimised and they can be removed also. Correct. And I also don't want to go to places where people are too stingy and very much worried about, I am bringing a saffron sadhu and everything.

I will tell them, sorry, I won't come only. I will not go. I will tell them, arrange a programme outside, in the company quarters or something, in somebody's home, I will do it.

Why to do it in a place where because some places I saw, they open me with open arms, they will come, some places. Other places, they are little reserved. So, wherever I am getting welcome, I will go.

And world is a big place, actually. You know, ultimately, our movement is existing for what? Our movement is existing to enlighten the people. You know, put on the tube light in a dark room.

Similarly, we should enlighten the people in the, you know, there are so many things they have to learn. If you don't even teach the basics, ABC of Bhagavad Gita, you know, we are actually depriving them of the goal of human life. Hmm.

Okay, makes sense. And another interesting, recently I made one observation. I thought that those people who speak on self-help, they get, you know, 2 million followers, 3 million followers, I thought like that.

But now, understanding, there are good number of spiritualists, there are ladies also, there are lady preachers and there are male preachers also. They have got even 5 million, 8 million also. They are purely presenting Krishna Consciousness.

I can tell you names. There are people. You go to YouTube, you will find, there are people who have several million, you know, followers.

Although, there is one lady who became a devotee when she was 4 years old in Vrindavan and she took initiation from Gaudiya Vaishnava. Now, this lady has, you know, 1.5 million people in her YouTube. You hear her lectures, she speaks pure Chaitanya Mahaprabhu philosophy.

There are people like that, you know. So, if you can get 1.5 million, 2 million people to hear you speaking pure Krishnakatha, then why do you have to take, you know, roundabout approach? What do you mean? That is true. There is one Baba in Vrindavan, in one of the Radha Vallabh temple.

Sorry, go ahead. He is sitting in Vrindavan, I am telling you. And if you see, 1.5, you know, you will find all his lectures.

Lakhs of, millions of people are sharing shots at lectures he puts. Generally, we tell people don't go to Dham and just say, he is sitting in Dham doing Bhajan and preaching also. YouTube is putting, you know, he has got 2 million, 3 million followers.

So, nowadays the world is open for you to give pure Krishna consciousness. If these guys are doing, why should we go in artificial way? Tell me. See, the many people give reason that I am going for soft skills.

Why? Because more people will follow me and then gradually I can bring them to Krishna. Now, world says, we don't want to go gradually, we want right away full Krishna consciousness to give. And big, big industrialists, big educated people, scientists, scholars are going and falling at the feet of Vaishnava devotees.

And millions of people are there in YouTube hearing from them. And I have heard the philosophy they are Vaishnava Sampradaya, I am telling you. They are in one of the four Sampradayas.

They are purely presenting. When I saw that, I was thrilled. I said, wow, this is something.

That's what we should be doing also. Especially if you are scientific people, scientists. Actually, roundabout way was, bridging and all was required too much some years before, maybe a decade before.

Now, the whole world is searching for genuine thing. People are ready to hear direct philosophy also. Good number of people.

Yeah. You know, there is about this, there are lot of people who are interested in exploring. So, it's just that sometimes in our presentation, there is cultural exploration and there is cultural commitment.

Lot of people have cultural curiosity. But sometimes, what happens is, people feel that we push too fast from cultural curiosity to cultural commitment. Correct.

And that alienates them. But if you give them a little space to move at their pace, then there is a lot of people who are exploring. Even if we consider the world's population and whom, how many we are reaching today.

And sheer number of people who are spiritually curious are quite large. Because the world itself is such a big place. Yeah.

So, definitely we can reach out to people also. Yeah. Also, people who are very good bridge presenters, bridge topic presenters, if they are spiritually sound also, then they can also present spiritually in a very attractive way.

They can present. Yeah. With their realisations, with their understanding, with wit and humour, they can present.

Actually, the spirituality is also very wonderful. It can be presented in a very nice way. Then millions of followers will follow them also.

And I am not telling millions of blind followers. There are educated followers, brilliant people also nowadays, ready to hear on YouTube and become a follower of a genuine spiritualist. There are a good number of people.

And this is what I am observing. I wasn't aware of it. The last one or two years, I am also learning that good number of people are presenting pure philosophy and they have millions of people hearing them on YouTube.

You can see that. And they are speaking the same philosophy what we are speaking. So, I would suggest all the preachers that you continue preaching very purely and enhance your presentation.

Make your presentations more and more appealing and interesting. It all depends on how you package what you present very nicely. And give the product of tattva, pure philosophy to the people.

And we are not merciless in pushing people or choking people through big philosophy when they are not in a mood to receive. So, what Prabhupada would do is let people pick up as much as they can. We have abundant to offer.

If they only want to serve Krishna by eating prasad, come to our temple, eat prasad and go. If they want to, after eating prasad, they want to hear kirtan sitting in the temple hall, hear kirtan and go. No problem.

If they want to hear lecture, you hear lecture. If you want to pick up a book, pick up a book. So, this is the mood in which Prabhupada also gives.

It's not that Prabhupada is telling us to force people to transition around the first day we meet them. Actually, the very spirituality has the motherly flavour. It has.

It actually is very, very nourishing. So, those who are genuine spiritualists, what are their qualities? Chitikshavaka, Arunikas, Urdas, Sarvadehinam, Ajatas, Shatravas, Shantaha, Sadhavas, Sadhu, Bhushana. They know how to administer.

Narada Muni is preaching to different people differently. You know. So, we can also do the same.

But we should be making them available. Like Narada Muni is testing Dhruva and after that he gave the genuine thing, after testing him. You know, with each people, each person you see, Narada Muni, he may be appearing like doing some little bridging, but he doesn't fail to give the tattva, the truth.

That's true. So, bridging in terms of, you could say initially, we say Narada Muni doesn't tell the hunter, why are you killing animals? Why are you half killing animals? That is counterintuitive, but that is what he is doing. So, yes, actually it is true that the world in one sense has opened up like never before.

And in the past we had geographical limitations. So, it could be that at a particular geographical place the number of people interested might be very less. If you consider the whole world, then the number of people who are interested can be significant.

And then that's why it's possible to reach out to a large number of people also. Yes, true. And just to, maybe before I conclude, you mentioned earlier about four values.

Can you just talk about personal, interpersonal, social and spiritual? Can you just explain that and maybe then we can, I'll try to summarise and we can wind up. Yeah. So, personal values means, for example, integrity, you know, honesty, you know, these kind of values are personal values, truthfulness.

Okay. I as an individual, I should have these core values. And interpersonal means, which involves me and others, like offering respect.

Yes. So, what is the difference between interpersonal and social then? Social means I worry about the cows. You know, I also worry about social issues.

I also worry about the youths who are degrading nowadays and suffering from many bad habits. That kind of things also. Social is more about, it can also be about persons, but it is interpersonal is more about people whom we are directly connected with.

Social is more about people who may not be connected with. And social may not necessarily be people only related. It could be like, for example, we talk about how, you know, for example, the abortion is happening.

Environmental consciousness. Environmental also. All that comes in social.

Social issues, yeah. Social issues, that makes sense. And then spiritual is directly about our commitment to our practises and other things.

Correct. Okay. Makes sense.

Yeah. So, are there some other things you want to add? I'll try to summarise otherwise. Actually, our movement, ISKCON movement, at the moment, I would say, has a very great scope to preach to people because many other organisations are doing the good work of teaching the people the importance of eating vegetarian food, you know, doing pranayama, doing yogasanas.

My special master was telling that many of the yogis in America who come for his classes, you know, they are ready to dance in the Hare Krishna kirtan. They are yogis, actually. They are very happy to dance.

He sings the same tunes what he sings in India here. And as you said, he gives a lecture. I want to say one thing about his lectures.

You know, when very advanced devotees speak directly to Krishna pastimes, because they have deep conviction in their hearts, you know, in what they are speaking, that conviction actually sings in the heart of the audience also. It actually sings soul to soul. You know, that kind of… Therefore, even newcomers become touched by the pastime they heard.

If he is telling the narrative in the pastime of fruit vendor lady, a newcomer may say, see, I don't know about Krishna, you know, I don't know about Hindu philosophy much, but the selflessness with which she gave the fruits to God and how God reciprocated with that love, that really touched my heart. Somebody may say that. Correct, no? They may not know more.

So, therefore, I would say that we should present such spiritual pastimes to the degree we are convinced deeply about it. Like, I very openly say one thing in my lectures. I say, see, Durgadevi is taking Trishul and driving you.

Get out of the material world. And Radharani is keeping a flower bouquet and welcoming you. Please come to spiritual world.

You know, I tell people like that. So, some boys told me, Pabuji, you are saying it openly, some new boys may get hurt. And I said, actually, new boys have a good laughter when they hear this.

And they say, yes, Pabuji, that's true. In material world, there is Dukala Vrindavan. We are asked to quit the world and go back to Godhead.

This I generally tell when boys have come to two rounds or three rounds now to them. So, I am very convinced about this. So, when I am with conviction I speak, then I will be able to convince them.

If I am little not very comfortable with this example, should I speak it? I shouldn't speak it. Those spiritual topics and things which I am myself not very convinced, I should not unnecessarily venture on presenting them. Because then my lack of faith also will be passed on to them.

So, this also we can say Adhikar applies not only to whether we do bridge preaching, but in bridge preaching also what we speak will depend on our Adhikar. Even in the bridge context, they can speak something higher. It's in some ways people appreciate conviction.

This is what you are convinced of. This is where you are coming from. But if we are ourselves hesitant, then it will be a problem.

That's true. And when we present to people, you know, after we present it is up to them whether to accept it or not. If I have presented with conviction, there are many good number of people nowadays who say that, you know, I really appreciate the values which you cherish.

I wish, you know, I can also learn little more about what you spoke today. With that consciousness people go. Then you tell them, please take the Krishna book or take this Prabhupada's book.

You read this Science of Self Realisation we can give. Actually, Prabhupada expected us that wherever we preach, we reach his books also to the people. Of course, the book according to their level coming back or Science of Self Realisation or something like that.

Why Prabhupada said that? Because people are awakened spiritually little bit, but when they go and read the book, gradually they come out of their shell of ignorance and then they start understanding the subject better. And eventually they will become devotees. Yes.

But bridge preaching has one very great danger that years are passing, people's bodies are also ageing and sometimes in certain places, certain programmes, like one fellow was telling is they are reading Valmiki Ramayana in that programme he was telling as a bridging because there are about 40 people are coming, senior citizens are coming to his house and they are reading Ramayana verse by verse, shloka and the translation. I asked, how long it's going on? Two years he said. And how many rounds are they chanting? Till now I have not introduced Hare Krishna chanting.

Because they are all traditional North Indian fellows, let them hear the Ramayana. Slowly I am planning to introduce chanting. I said, most of them are 75, 70, 75, before they introduce the chanting they will be gone.

You know, they should not die. At least they should know it. Ramayana they are appreciating because it is more for ideal human being how he should live.

So, then I will present. That's what I want to ask you Prabhuji. I said start right away.

Two years are too much. Therefore, we should not do bridge for a long time. We should try to keep some kind of timeline for it.

That's what I would say. Yeah, that's true. Of course, Valmiki Ramayana is better than just taking some ordinary self-help book.

At least they are reading about Ram. There is also a commitment to the practise of Bhakti which is ultimately transformative. Yeah, that is true.

So, yes, I will try to summarise and if you want to add some things more you can add at the end. So, I think today we discussed about the topic of bridge preaching and mentioned that when we talk about a bridge although every activity is connecting somebody at a higher level of consciousness with a lower level of consciousness. But when the audience has certain certain preconceptions or certain reservations or certain worldviews or certain ideas which make them a little hesitant or even apprehensive about the direct presentation of the message of the scriptures, that is when we need some kind of bridge.

So, with respect to that bridge, a major avenue to today's world is self-help. And then we discussed elaborately about how people who are actually concerned about the self, they are already to some level a Satwa. And then various areas of Satwa talking about say avoiding inferiority complex or managing man's mind or say staying healthy, losing weight and regulating one's eating.

So, talk about being satisfied with oneself, being sensitive with others, having good relationships with others. So, there are lots of areas where we have so much, our tradition has so much to offer. And if we offer that then that makes them, say instead of teaching, we can teach self-help or self-development but we use our traditions resources like the Ramayana, the Mahabharata.

We need to talk about leadership using Krishna's example as servant leader. So, through all these, so what happens is that we are giving them appreciation for Krishna. We are giving appreciation for Krishna's devotees and their actions and then we are giving, we give them a channel to move ahead.

that is something which is you talk about repeatedly and then if you provide them a channel then many will move ahead and those who don't, they will also get something tangible to move on. Tangible to take on with their lives. So, they have developed some appreciation and then when we talk about bridge outreach, there are, if there are forums where we cannot bring in Krishna at all, then we cannot bring in Krishna or we cannot bring in Prabhupada, then at least we ourselves should be the medium by which we offer them some connection higher, connection ahead.

And there could be but if there is absolute, if people are very suspicious and very reserved then why do we have to go over there and better go to areas where we can be ourselves and gradually elevate people. And then there are some bridges which may not actually bring people to Krishna but then they may be helpful for those people's influence to be used for getting people to Krishna. So, one form of bridge, like Prabhupada engage life members so that they give some contributions.

Some prominent scientists, they speak some, they endorse the Krishna consciousness movement or devotees or our wisdom. So, that can also help. So, that is also one kind of bridging where basically what we are doing is if we are not addressing their needs by which they come to Krishna, we are giving them a bridge by which some of their resources, in this case their position, their influence, their wealth that can be used in Krishna's service.

Then we talk also about the danger in bridge preaching is that we might just stay stuck over there forever. We talk about those preachers who talk or direct something spiritual and they speak spiritual also, they are speaking material things also to get people to spiritual. But if there are some people who got too much get caught in material and they never come to spiritual, there is a danger for them and there is a danger for their followers also.

Because they may get lost. So, they need to be protected and guided by their spiritual master and other guides and their audience. Otherwise, they may not get the opportunity to grow spiritually.

And with respect to bridging, so we can say the broad principle is that whichever society we are in, whichever culture we are in, we see what is getting people somewhere to sattva. And then we say bridge outreach is because a significant portion of sattva and then an appropriate portion of Atma Gyan and then Bhagavad Gyan. So, that way we can get people to come slowly but steadily toward Krishna.

And ultimately, today there is abundant opportunity for direct outreach also. So, if it is, rather than worrying about whether our content is attractive or not, we focus more on presenting it in an intelligent way and presenting in an attractive way and then there are ways in which we can reach a large number of people who are eager for spirituality. And with respect to bridge outreach, it is sometimes some audiences need that and sometimes some devotees may themselves be more disposed for that.

At the same time, it is important that we stay grounded in our personal spiritual practises and then I think those two main things, we stay grounded in our practises and we ensure that people have pathways by which to move ahead. Those things are taken care of. Then bridge preaching can also open many many people to who would not directly come to Krishna to come toward Krishna.

Anything you want to add to me? Very brilliant summary. Amazing. You are an encyclopaedia.

I can absolutely recapitulate what you spoke as an encyclopaedia of wisdom and realisation. So, thank you very much. Any concluding words you want to add? It is said, I will tell you one sweet bridging technique that my spiritual master used in protecting me and bringing me to Krishna's lotus feet.

You know, I come from a Shaivite family from South India. I used to wear this Vibhuti. Vibhuti means bhasma, ashes on my forehead.

I used to wear also dhoti like this. Even in IIT, when I was living in the IIT hostel, I used to wear the same dhoti. People would look up and down at me.

Even in the hostels, I would go with dhoti. I never wore, I mean, you know, jeans or anything in the hostel also. I would wear dhoti only.

So, when I had first gone to the temple, I got introduced to my spiritual master, Param Krishna Maharaj. In those days, we got easy access to him. So, I went to his room and said, Maharaj, I am actually planning to dedicate my life to your temple.

I was looking for various matas, organisations and all. I have been to more than a dozen organisations, but his consultancy suits me very well. I am very, very happy.

But there is one serious problem, I said. Maharaj asked me, what is it? I said, Maharaj, here people are saying that I can't worship Shiva and I can't chant this Yajurveda mantra which I chant daily, Rudram and Chamakam, you know, which is my daily practise. Every day I have been doing it.

You know, these people are saying that I have a picture of Shiva in my room. They are saying that once I join the ashram, I can't keep all these things. They are saying, you know, I can't worship Shiva.

That is one of my fears. Because I was a very young devotee. At that time, I was only probably chanting a few rounds, three, four rounds.

Then when Maharaj heard me, very silently, he said, and then he said, and then Maharaj said, there is no problem. You can worship Shiva. Vaishtamanam Yathashambhu.

He said, he is the topmost devotee of the Lord. You can have Shiva's picture. You can worship him.

He is glorious. He is worthy of worship. There is no problem.

He is the topmost devotee. Like that he said. And immediately I was like, you know, a big mountain of ice melts in front of the sun.

Like that, everything, all my problems dissolved completely. I felt, oh really Maharaj? Then I said, Maharaj, when I complete my studies, I immediately wish to dedicate my life to you. I want to join your temple, I said.

And Maharaj said, you can worship Shiva. You can glorify Shiva. You can keep picture of Shiva, but there is no need.

He said, after that. Then I said, no need? What is that? Then he said that famous verse, Yatha taror moola nishetha nena tripti antitha chkanda bujopashakha pranopahara chayatendriyana tathaiva sarvarhana machu tejya. He said, that if you water the root of the tree, then all the branches, leaves, twigs of the tree get nourished.

He said, similarly, when you are worshipping Krishna, Shiva is very pleased. Brahma is pleased, Indra is pleased, everybody is pleased. And therefore, these devotees told you that you are already worshipping Krishna, chanting Hare Krishna.

Therefore, there is no need, they said. But if you still have an inclination to glorify Lord Shiva, because you come from a Shaivite family. You know, 15 years I was chanting Om Namah Shivaya before that.

So, he said, we are unable to give up that. There is no problem. You are just chanting four rounds.

If you are attached to Shiva, you pray to Shiva that he gives you the best gift in your life. And then he asked Maharaj, what is that best gift? Best gift is Krishna, which I have already given you. He said.

When I came out of the room, I felt very light at heart. You know, I had no problem. Then I could switch over to Krishna very easily without any difficulty.

So, here is the example I told you, how Maharaj does bridging with the people. He knew my need. He understood my need and spoke in a way that he could lay a bridge from which I could come from.

You know, I don't know my father was at that time asking me, Hey, if you are going to dedicate your life, why don't you join the Shankaramath? You know, and also our distance is having a, our family is having a distant relationship with Sivananda also. He is one from my family side. They have one, he is a distant relative kind of person.

So, he asked, why don't you join Sivananda? Why don't you join Shankaramath? Any of this. At that time, the early stage, he asked. So, I was fortunate because I had my spiritual master.

If he didn't lay that bridge for me to come from Shaivite mode to the Vaishnava lifestyle, you know, I wouldn't be here today and having an interview with you. Isn't it? So, definitely, the great souls know what to speak when in such a manner that they will actually bring people to Krishna's lotus feet. I think this you mentioned also with respect to Prabhupada that Prabhupada's bridging was in terms of his personal behaviour as well as in terms of dealing with others by which he could.

His experiential nature of spirituality that he presented and the way he dealt with others. Bridging doesn't have to be like an elaborate philosophical strategy. It can also be simply the way we connect with people also.

And super soul in the heart gives the right intelligence for such advanced devotees. Like one Mataji asked a question to my special master, Maharaj, why in Jagannath Puri they don't offer carrots to Lord Jagannath? Maharaj asked, do you eat carrots? He asked. She said, no Maharaj, we are Jains.

No, we don't eat, he said. And then immediately gave a reply. He said, Jagannath doesn't eat carrots because he wants to please Jains like you.

Like that he said. And that was it. Mataji was clean bold after that.

She was very pleased. It was a very endearing answer. Then he gave other explanations and all he gave.

But the point is, I feel that, you know, Vaishnavas have to be compassionate while connecting with new people. You know, the compassion can also awaken the right type of examples and the analogies and the speech by which, you know, Krishna will inspire the Jiva to come to his lotus feet. Yeah.

Yes, that is true. Thank you very much. Thank you.

So happy to have this discussion. I feel it was very very clear, very comprehensive. At the same time it gave direction.

At the same time it gave boundaries also. So very very helpful. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Your questions were very appropriate. Otherwise I won't be able to.

If you just tell me to give a lecture on bridging, I can't speak more than half an hour. But you asked such appropriate questions by which I could think of examples and analogies and real life stories and everything. And it also I would say that it helped me personally to know about this theme of bridging topics much more clearly by the kind of discussion we both had now.

And because many students asked me questions on this, I would just recommend them to go to your channel and look at this video. So I don't have to give another lecture on bridging now. So you brought out all the salient points one by one towards the end.

If somebody hears the summary, they would just capture all the vital points. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Look forward to having you again in future sometime.