Book Distribution As The Engine For Community Building,The Monk’s Podcast 155-Vaisesika Prabhu, @Bhadra Purnima special

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Hare Krishna Vaiseshika Prabhu.
Thank you very much, for joining for the monk’s podcast today. It’s been a long cherished desire, to have your association here. So, thank you for, sparing your time, and coming.
Prabhu, there is no place in the world, I’d rather be, please accept my obeisances, and to everyone who’s watching, Hare Krishna. Thank you. Prabhu, I thought today, now it’s Bhadrapurnima also, coming on, and also thought of, you know, book distribution, is a very important part of our, movement in our tradition.
At the same time, what I observed, whenever I have in Silicon Valley, is that, you know, from book distribution, to say, heart transformation, and community building. That is something, which you have done, quite remarkably. So, I thought we could, discuss that topic today, if that’s okay with you.
I’d love to. One of my favourite topics. Yes, thank you.
So, if we look at the history of our movement, we were defined, as, the people who dance in the streets, and distribute the books. There was some survey, I was reading recently, that, when people were asked in America, in 1970s, how many Hare Krishnas are there? The estimate of Americans, was almost 100 times, more than the actual number of devotees, with average Americans. Because, you know, we were so visible.
At the same time, it did happen that, while doing distribution, the other part of the whole thing, the cutting care of devotees, and building communities, that sometimes, was not given the due attention. But you have managed that, balance where, in fact, rather than seeing book distribution as, something which, which individual devotees, go and do. You had, in fact, redefined book distribution, as an activity, which brings the community together.
The entire family goes out, and distribute books. And many of the devotees families go out, and it’s become a strong, community building exercise. So, how did this, was this a conscious decision, that you made, or it was just, by experience, gradually, that like, restrategizing happened? Yes, Prabhu.
I noticed that, that over time, since I joined ISKCON in 1973, there are various eras. And in each one of them, there were various necessities, that people had. In the beginning, there was, quite a bit of community building, through book distribution, because, when you go out, and meet people, and talk to them, where they live, on the streets, in their homes, then eventually, you’re going to meet, sincere seekers, who are going to want to, find out more about, what you do, and where you live.
And, we did have, ashrams, that were quite full, during the 1970s. When I lived in ashrams, there were often, not much space. There were so many people coming.
In the 1980s, I did start to notice, that the, economic necessities changed. Sometimes, well, not sometimes, every time, people’s lives change, they grow up, and they have different needs, like economic needs. So, a lot of people, living in ashrams, got married, and they went out, and they had to find jobs, and so forth.
And, that made a big difference. I noticed that, when we started our community, here in Silicon Valley, that, people were best, taking care of their own, necessities, economically. And, that they could have, their solid unit, and also participate, in the most important aspects, of Krishna consciousness, at the temple, and have, a good, connection, with everybody else.
So, just in brief, in brief summary, that what I noticed was, that, so many people, thought, that book distribution, was only about, Brahmacharis, or monks, who were, free to do so, going out, full time. It had been compartmentalised. But, I felt, as a householder, when I became a householder, that it, it was a mainstay, of my, ashram.
And, we just instituted that, in, Silicon Valley, where there happened to be, a, a few householders, and then, the trend grew, and we kept, book distribution, as a, a centrepiece, because community, means there’s some common, purpose, as you mentioned. Hmm. So, overall, this is, not only, you could say, not only was, book distribution, sustained, and given a new, new direction, new dimension, but also changed, the public perception.
When devotees, as a family, go out for distribution, then that doesn’t, it doesn’t seem as if, we are a cult. It is, more of a, more of an inclusive, family friendly image also. So, that has also, helped us to grow, out of the, cult perceptions, that people had, sometimes about us.
Isn’t it? Yeah, that’s very true. Actually, when, we go door-to-door, with, whole families, people are, just as a, experiment, you know, there’s people, on doors. We’ve done, a lot of, door-to-door, book distribution.
In fact, Prabhupada mentions it, in the Seventh Canto, the Bhagavatam, in Prahlad’s prayers, that, the purpose of the, of the devotees, is to go door-to-door. He brings that up, a lot. So, we try.
We didn’t go door-to-door, we still go door-to-door, and, people look out, through those little holes, before they decide, whether they’re going to, open the door or not. And just, anecdotal studies, but, we noticed, if there’s, women and children outside, mixed, you know, with everybody else, then, they don’t mind opening, the door. If there’s one man, or a couple of men, it’s, it’s less likely, that they’ll open it, right away.
So, and, and in general, it’s, people like to see, people who look like them, and, get an idea that, yeah, this is a, participatory, programme. You can, you can join in, and, and can be part of it. But, I think also, that, you know, Indian householders, in America, this is our experience, are highly effective, at teaching, Krishna consciousness, to Westerners.
This is another crossover, because, yeah, we find that, they’re seen as, authorities, because, kind of, they are, in a lot of ways, it’s their culture, and they know a lot about it, and so, but, there’s, there’s a sense, when I see, Indians talking to Westerners, that, they think, wow, you must know about this, we’re going to listen. So, that’s helpful also. Oh, that’s interesting.
You know, when, since, I started coming abroad, from 2014, from outside India, so, many times, when I would give Western classes, many times, people would ask me this question, where you born in this culture? So, I had never been asked this question, in India. So, it seems that, if you’re born into a culture, as contrasted with, you became a convert to the culture, if you’re born, you see, it seems, they consider, you have more authenticity. Is it something like that? Yeah, it is, and to some degree, it’s true.
I mean, to some degree that, you know, it’s so ingrained, but, yeah, that’s true, and there’s, it seems, when somebody’s teaching from another country, people sort of, yeah, make an assumption, that, they must know about it. So, that’s also a helpful feature. Oh, that’s fascinating.
So, if I, what you’re saying is that, when Indians go out for distribution, they’re also able to connect with Westerners, not just Indians. Very much so, and, yeah, yeah, that’s true. It very much warms my heart.
When I first started, seeing our Indian devotees, householders, go out, for instance, to Haight-Ashbury, it’s an iconic place, where the counterculture started, the hippie movement in the 1960s. Yeah, elaborate mention of that. Her brother’s movement took hold, right? Yeah, that’s true, yeah.
And, we see all these photos coming in, of these, Indians, some of them, you know, come from Brahmin families, and, they hadn’t had much experience with Westerners, but, they were delighted to meet these people, hippies, there still are hippies there, and, the others were just delighted to meet them, and, you can see the photos, and see the results, it’s, it’s, very heartwarming, and it’s a nice mix. Amazing. Yeah, that is one of the concerns, that many devotees feel that, or, that, one reason why Western outreach is not happening much, is because, our temples are being, in some ways, some ways dominated by Hindus, or Indians, but, you’re saying that even Indians can be effective, to connect with Westerners.
Absolutely, and, as far as, I mean, there are two aspects, to the outreach, in book distribution, more than two aspects, but two main aspects are, when we first meet somebody, and then there has to be some place for them to go, and it’s, it is true that, many of the temples in, North America, certainly, are packed up with, Indian, devotees, but, in that case, we have to make special arrangements, because, as I like to say, every, species, has its habitat, that it can survive in. There is a, experiment out here, near where I live, in California, along the coast, to bring back a species called, the red-legged frog. The red-legged frog, is a very important chain, in the economic, in the ecological system, and it had, all but gone extinct, so, there were these biologists, who created, again, recreated the habitat, of the red-legged frog, and then it came back, and so, when I saw that, I was thinking that, if we want a specific kind of person, to thrive in Christian consciousness, we have to, create an environment, where they feel comfortable, and, when that’s not there, you can distribute a book, but then, where are they going to go next? They have to, for instance, a Westerner has to have a place, where he or she sees, other Western people, and, it’s being presented in a way, that they can understand it, in their language, language is so important, just the terminologies that we use, and, the approach to explaining, so that is a vital point, that is, just, being developed, now, there are, areas where, certain devotees have taken that to heart, but, it’s, we’ve had really good success with it, during the pandemic, developing new ways, to bring in Westerners, but, it is, especially important, to have habitat, for the kinds of people, you can’t just throw them in, in any habitat, and expect them to survive.
It’s a beautiful term, you know, habitat, it makes such immediate sense, and, we can say, ultimately, Krishna Consciousness, spiritual habitat, but, before people can experience, the spiritual habitat, they need to experience, at some level, of cultural, social, acceptability, and comfort, only then, they can, sustainably, connect with the spiritual habitat, also. It’s so true, Prabhu, and then, Prabhupada brings it up, in his, commentary, about Gajendra, he mentions, how Gajendra, the elephant, was, struggling, because, he was in the water, even though, he’s the king of the jungle, and so strong, everyone respected him, on the land, he would have defeated, the crocodile, but Prabhupada mentions, that everyone needs, to have, sensory strength, and, power, of, and, feel comfortable, in his or her, environment, in order to prosecute, Krishna Consciousness. That’s fascinating, sorry to interrupt you, that I had always thought of, the ashram, but, I think, it doesn’t have to apply, to the ashram, it can apply, in general, to the environment, where a person can, be comfortable, and can flourish.
That’s beautiful. The last few years, I’ve been, as per my, spiritual master’s instruction, trying to assist, in Western outreach. So, I read some books, about how things are, the religious landscape, in America.
So, I read a quote, by Martin Luther King. He said, that the church hour, is the most, sectarian hour, in America. What he meant, by that is, people, for church, they go to people, of their own denominations.
So, for example, Latin Americans, will go to Latin, place, where the Latin Americans. it’s, and to some extent, when I thought about it, it’s true in India also. So, it’s a holy place, is not just a holy place, for spiritual coming together.
It’s also for cultural, social coming together. So, yeah. So, so, have you devised some, like, in Silicon Valley, I visited, we have one main temple.
But, have you also, got some smaller, separate centres, or what is the arrangement, what is the habitat, that can be created, in a realistic way, for non-Indians also, to join, connect with Krishna Consciousness, regularly? Well, a couple of experiences, I’ve had. I visited, a couple of times, Rick Warren’s temple, down in Southern California. Okay.
And, it’s called Saddleback. He’s been really successful. I read his book, which is called, The Purpose Driven Church.
And, he has a bestseller, called, The Purpose Driven Life, which is well known, less well known, as, The Purpose Driven Church, which is, definitely, a handbook, for anybody, who wants to, embark on this, creation of, community, that develops habitat. So, he has a mantra, on his campuses, and there are vast, you know, sprawling, facilities, for people to come. He has a mantra, He has various centres, for instance, on one property.
He doesn’t have just one, church, worship centre, but he has several, and they’re divided, for young people, people, who speak Spanish, people, who like, traditional, programme, and other people, who like, more cutting edge. he has, at least four, maybe it’s three, three or four, different worship centres, on one campus. And so, they say, same message, different music.
That’s their mantra, there. So, the music, the soundscape, makes such a difference, in people’s lives, but that’s indicative, of the thinking, of those who are, on the cutting edge, whether, in Christian consciousness, or in Christianity, of how to get, the unchurched, and bring them, into the fold. And, yes, we have, been doing that, we had the benefit, during the, the pandemic, of trying, our experiment, especially online.
So, Jai Madhava, Prabhu, and, Bhavani Bhakti, a couple here, who’s very interested, in Western outreach. They’re, Indians, but, expert in, digital transformation, but also, they have compassionate hearts, and, and wanted to reach out, to the Westerners. So, they developed this, Bhakti community, which, was scientifically created, by interviewing, all the best, Western outreach, creators, and, forming it, around the base, these principles, and it’s, it’s flourishing.
It, fits the, the formula, create the, create the habitat, and the species will survive. And so now, we have a place, these digitally, and we’ll, bring that more into the, the physical, as the, the pandemic lessens, that, people are thriving, and we have, hundreds of people, online, on our Bhakti community, who are regulars, and who are participating, and learning, and they’re taking, 52 week classes, that progressively teach, Krishna consciousness, and, we’re finding that, the formula works. Yes.
Well, 52 weeks is substantial. That means, if somebody goes to that much, they are definitely interested, and committed, and they will get a, quite a holistic experience, of Krishna consciousness. Yes, definitely.
So, it, what it seems to be, basically, with respect to Western Outreach, I’ve seen two different models, in one sense, where, you have two separate centres, in some parts of the world, where in New Zealand, for example, there is a Western Outreach Centre, there is a local temple for Indians, and the two works, systematically, steadily, separately. There are some places, where, you have a, separate centre, for Western Outreach, and eventually, they join towards, one main temple community. But, what you said in Saddleback, is like, they have separate things, for separate people itself.
So, do you envision, the two streams, eventually uniting, or both streams, will eventually, in their own tracks, move toward Krishna? Or it depends? We’ll let you know. We’ll let you know, if we can merge them together. But, what I’ve observed is, if you’re going to have it, all in one place, everybody, who’s part of the, the host community, should be inculcated, must be inculcated, with the idea, that this is for outsiders.
Because, as you mentioned before, birds of a feather, flock together. And, Martin Luther, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said, you know, it’s the most sectarian hour. So, we have to build an awareness, that we’re, we’re there, not just for ourselves, to congregate, and feel good, with our friends.
But, from the beginning of ISKCON, we already, or, I should say, at the beginning of ISKCON, there was this, pervasive sense, that, when people, new guests came, they were the priority. And, it’s, it’s true in any group, not just in ISKCON, that, you know, we tend to go, tend towards our comfort zone. And, that means, I sit with my friends, the people I like, and, and, ignore the new people, because like, who are they to come in here? I’m not saying anybody thinks like that, but that, that could be, that could, it could trend that far.
So, we really have to, it requires inculcation, and very deliberately, setting up, programmes, if you’re going to merge them, so that, when people come, whoever they may be, I find even, some Indians, aren’t, up to the, that speed, that, you know, they walk in, there’s so many prayers. I had somebody, say once, an Indian, Indian couple, they were, younger, but there’s like, why so many prayers, and what are all these things? It’s, it’s foreign to, a lot of people. We don’t know how fast we’re going, sometimes, or how absorbed, we are in, doing things that, and not being aware, that, of what other people think of it.
So, that perspective is, is vitally important, and it always helps, when we, take time to reconsider, who’s this for? And, when we, direct it towards others, it’s very healthy, for the community, actually, because when new people, come in, everybody, vicariously, experiences, Krishna consciousness, anew, as there’s, seeing it through their eyes. Right, this is great, and look how new people, love this. I should love it, ten times more.
That’s a beautiful phrase, vicariously, experience Krishna consciousness, anew. It’s so true, that otherwise, if we are, we are doing only, there is a special joy, in reaching out to new people, we can do Bhakti Shastri courses, we can do Bhagavatam classes, it’s wonderful, to go into scriptures. But, there is a, very different, and special rasa, in introducing, somebody new, to Krishna consciousness, and seeing, you could see, their eyes light up, seeing the jigsaw puzzles, fall in place, in their heads, you know, just life starts, becoming meaningful, and then, in that sense, our, our service starts, feeling deeply meaningful also.
Otherwise, sometimes, we may just feel that, I’m just expanding the, numbers of my group. Sometimes, although we know, it’s a transcendent activity, it can sound, just seem like a, simply like a, number increasing activity, but, that connecting with new people, is very enlivening. Exactly.
Yes. And, it’s, the testing of our mantras, just as in, ancient Vedic times, they would, beautiful, test mantras, by, you know, sacrifice, and I’ll bring it back to life. And that, can our mantras, are what, is what we are saying, to other people, life giving, does it bring them back to life? Can we watch it before our eyes, that they actually have this, the, the symptoms, of Krishna consciousness, that are, mentioned in, in the Bhagavad Gita, and elsewhere, and, and when that happens, and it does, then it reconfirms for us, that the mantras work, and then, we lean in them, to them harder.
So, there’s a symbiotic relationship, we have to be bringing in, new, brand new people, all the time, for our culture, just survive, and not become insular. That’s, and then, the amograha, sets in. Yeah, that’s true.
So, when you earlier said, that there’s an inculcation, that this is for everyone, and I, it does seem that, as a community grows, maybe we need, different levels of programmes, also. Some programmes, where devotees, come together, seriously, for, hearing Shastras, and going deeper, into their lives, and then, other programmes, where people, where there’s a, what is also come, but it’s opportunity, for new people to come in. So, this I have noticed, that you also created, a very vibrant culture, of hearing over there.
You, you have, you have solid, two, two and a half hour, three hour class. In fact, I haven’t, I have been coming to America, a lot of time, and I have talked with, many other preachers. They say, among all the places in the West, coming to Silicon Valley, is like, spiritual sense gratification.
Because, the community there, is so eager to hear. Of course, there’s wonderful communities, everywhere. But there, the community is, so eager to hear.
So, how did this, was this also, your personal conscious focus, from the beginning, to create a culture of hearing, or that also grew, gradually? Well, Prabhu, first of all, hearing such news, warms my heart, I must say. It really does. Thank you.
And, you know, it’s the culture, I grew up in. I became, a member of, Christian consciousness, as a Brahmachari. I was young, youngish, at the time, I was 16.
And, I, I was fortunate. I was connected, with, leadership, that really, emphasised, hearing and chanting. In fact, it was, reinforced by, a meeting I had, with, among other devotees, we went to, we went together, and met Prabhupada.
That was my first time, I had his, darshan. And, we had reported scores. In other words, we were sitting, in front of, Prabhupada, as, neophyte devotees.
Prabhupada, was listening to the, our temple president, give a report, about, how many books, we were distributing. And then, Prabhupada looked at us, and said, you must also, read my books. I’ve not written, just for selling.
I’ve written, I’ve written them, for you to read, become pure devotees, and go back to Godhead. I was so impressed, with that. And, I already had that experience, myself, before I, came to, Krishna consciousness.
I had collected, several of Prabhupada’s books, before meeting devotees. And, devoured them. And, that was, that was my mainstay, and my, my strong connection.
And, when I first walked, in the temple, to join, when I said, is the guru here? I’d like to, you know, become a disciple. They said, no, he’s not here. He’s in India.
And, I said, that they saw, how I was disappointed. Don’t worry, he always lives in his books. So, I thought, yeah, that’s true.
I can appreciate, that principle. In any case, there are, there are various influences, on my life, about the importance, of hearing and chanting. And, when, when I got, so the first time, you entered a temple, your first question was, how can I become a disciple? I want to become a disciple.
Is it? That’s remarkable. I had assumed, that the guru would be there. I was like, that’s it.
I’m gonna, I’m gonna, you know, I want this. I thought, it’ll happen this day, this very day. And, and they, they said, they sort of chuckled.
It’s like, where’d you come from? He’s not here, you know, like, you know, who are you, kid? You know, so, in any case, 1974, was it 1974? Yeah, I, I, I walked in the temple, in the summer of 1973. 73, okay. And, and, I, I, I was fortunate, to have had association, with those, who understood the, the importance, of hearing and chanting.
And, that it’s the genesis, of any, development of community, of success, in any project, in Krishna consciousness, Shrinvatam Swakata Krishna, Punyashravana Kirtana. One has to, have, a healthy diet, of hearing and chanting. And, there’s no limit, to how much you can hear and chant.
It’s not, you know, it’s, Nityam Bhagavata Sevara. We, that’s what I felt, from Prabhupada. Permission, like, hear and chant, as much as you wish.
You know, it’s not, regimented to the point, like, it can only be a 30 minute class, or 40 minute class. No, hear as much as possible. I’ll just say, when, when, when I got involved, with this kind of Silicon Valley, I noticed that, devotees, didn’t have a lot of time, because they have to work hard.
But, our, conception, my thought, about, how it could be, a successful community, was based on, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, was mentioning, that there are five, especially, potent processes, of Krishna consciousness, that, if adhered to, will guarantee, the success, of the practitioner, even if he or she, does not have, complete faith in them. And, even has a little contact, with them. So, devotees couldn’t come, every day.
And, so, we made it a point, to have, longer contact time, when we were together, especially, in these five. And, especially, in hearing and chanting. And, it works.
It always works. And, if you don’t, have something, to offer, by, having, the experience, of how transformative, hearing, from Prabhupada’s books is, then, it’s very difficult, to go out and present, to other people. And, just to, keep a run on sentence, going here.
There’s a way, in which, when devotees, do go out, to distribute books, even if they, haven’t had a lot, of experience, with hearing and chanting, we find that, they want to hear and chant, because, they start thinking, like, what’s in these books? And, the two complement, each other. They go together, like, rice and dal. Both good foods, but, when you put them together, you get 32 percent, more nutrition, according to, Jamuna’s cookbook.
Okay. That’s beautiful. Yeah.
And, it is, very much true. Generally, if we are not, really, interacting with new people, in trying to share, then, there is no, we don’t feel the impetus, to go deeper, into our books also. Okay.
It’s like, as you said earlier, we are in a comfort zone. And, so, in one sense, we can say, hearing and chanting, makes us more comfortable. But, to experience that comfort, we have to go out, of our comfort zone.
That inspires us, to take shelter, in one sense. Maybe, shelter is a better word, than comfort. But, yeah, that’s true.
Symbiotic. In fact, we have a saying that, you should learn, to be comfortable, outside your comfort zone, and uncomfortable, in your comfort zone. Okay.
That’s true. So, be comfortable, outside your comfort zone. Yeah.
In one sense, that is what, what, I think, Prabhupada said, that, whenever you do, some service, or talk about charity, you give it, till it hurts, slightly at least. I think, that’s it. Yeah.
That’s effective. Not the extra, that you didn’t care, that you didn’t care about anyway. Right? Yes.
That’s true. So, just going back, to this earlier point, which is striking, that longer contact time. So, one of the things, I observed is that, when, especially in the western world, where most devotees are householders, a daily Bhagavatam class, is not really practical.
And then, trying to institute that, or impose that, it becomes, it becomes a drain for most devotees, even those who are giving class, and those who feel, it’s like an obligation to attend. But on the other hand, I think, you have two or three programmes, Wednesday evening, and then Sunday morning, and then, it’s like, devotees are eager to come, and they are very eager to come, and participate, and they look forward to it, and are nourished by it. So, So, was this also conscious decision to, like I said, based on people’s requirements, that we would arrange those programmes? Yeah, we started with one class, and then, incrementally increased it, according to the interest, and capacity of the devotees, and we just fell into a pattern, of Wednesday night, and then Saturday morning, and then Sunday.
However, there’s, as everybody knows, we have more holidays, in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, than maybe any other religion in the world. those are the steadies, steady days, but then, obviously, they’re augmented regularly, by the holy days, and we make it a point, for instance, to keep the vibration going all day long. Start early in the morning, and don’t stop until after midnight, and there’s all, you know, the hearing, chanting, discussing, goes on constantly.
And also, offline, there’s devotees, have developed a taste, so, there’s Bhakti Shastri, Bhakti Bhai Baba, Bhakti Vedanta, going on, and then devotees, have their own reading groups, constantly, especially during the pandemic, this really helped, because the community, was able to cohese, over the internet, and they were interested, in hearing and chanting, and a lot of them got, even more opportunity, to meet, and hear and chant. But yes, we started with, just, you know, what we could do, according to people’s schedules, to get together, at ISV, and hear and chant. In the beginning, there was just a few devotees coming, that could come, but, everything always expands, when you hear and chant, from Prabhupada’s books, it all comes from that, that’s the revelation, just like, when Prabhupada came, he concentrated, on these simple activities, chanting, publicly, and then having, a discussion, he would speak, and ask, people to, discuss, ask questions, and from there, every, all the magic happens.
It, it’s the, the place where, people start, to develop faith, just by hearing, and when they have faith, then they naturally, want to move, in the direction of, helping spread, the Christian consciousness, movement, without that, nothing moves. That’s true. This is a good point, rather than, what you’re saying is, you start with what is possible, and it will naturally expand, rather than, like set a very high, this is what you have to do, and then make it, it can seem like a, too much of a demand for people.
So, naturally, if it grows, then it is, something which is, relishably done by devotees, rather than seeing as a ritual, or a burden. That’s true. Yes, Prabhu, and I’ve, I’ve had the benefit, of being able to sit there, and watch people come, and sit, for, you know, week after week, and then you see, a light goes off, in their head, that like, hey, I’m going to do this.
And like, how does it happen? Just through the process, that Prabhupada told us to do. Just, hear, discuss, thoroughly, you know, what’s in the books. That’s another point, is that, I find that, it’s helpful to have, at least some of the, the meeting time, when we’re hearing and chanting, to be, participatory.
When devotees, get to participate. Yeah, okay, go ahead. So, you know, one of the things, which I find striking, about your classes, is that, it’s, there are some speakers, who have such a, such a capacity, to speak Katha, that people can just sit, and hear for hours, and not everybody, can do that.
Now, you have that power, to do that, but at the same time, what you do is, you engage the people. So, you ask for reflections, and not only, if you, you ask for it, but it’s like, people participate. You see, very serious, substantial reflections, the audience gives.
So, that is something, quite distinctive. In modern, teaching method, they do talk about it a lot, but I’ve not seen that, although, based on our meeting, a few years ago, I also tried, tried to do reflections, but it requires, a culture for, for participants, to actually open up, in a spiritual programme, and speak. So, how did you get this idea, and how, how is it developed, over the years? Well, first of all, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, I have no power at all, to be frank, but, if you say it, from your lips, to the Lord’s ears, someday, I might have, a modicum of power, an iota, somewhere.
Yeah, participatory, it’s true, that, sometimes, I, I’ll take the same format, that I’m used to, here at, ISV, and I’ll, induce people, participate, and they look at me like, wait a minute, can you do that? Are you supposed to be doing this? Is this okay? And, it does take, a while, to, get everyone used to, speaking. One of the, ways we’ve, worked on it here at ISV, is to make sure that, just, on a very basic level, that our sound system, is top rate. We have, about, five microphones, that float in the audience.
So that, every, and everyone’s trained, to speak into the microphone. I mean, part of it is just being, able to hear one another, is really important. And, emphasising, the, top rate, facility, you know, for discussions to take place, because, I don’t know how they did it, and I’m a Sharmi Prabhu, I mean, somebody wanted to say something, the atmosphere was different, I suppose.
But, yeah, it takes practise. And, once people get a taste, for, thinking about the material, and then, you know, giving their own, either reflection, which I, is what I like to say, you know, reflect on it. And, then it, it develops into a culture, where people like to participate in it, and, you know, ownership turns sand into gold, and they start to, feel, much more part of it.
And it, fleshes out the conversation, when, when people are participating. I just mentioned, about how, you know, when kids, are involved also, and, they start to develop, in, in Shastra, which is, something I’ll talk about, in a minute if you’d like, but, when they get involved, and they can start reflecting, you notice, everyone starts noticing, at the, the capacity, that, that kids have, and, everyone, there’s a kind of synergy, that takes place, when these discussions go on, in the, in the classes, that I find is very helpful. Oh, okay.
Yeah, in one sense, just if, audience starts reflecting, on an average, I’ve seen the, for somebody, an audience member starts reflecting, the remaining audience, is much more attentive, than when the speaker is, because the speaker has been speaking, for a long time. And, if the audience is a, child, it’s, almost, complete attention. So, that’s so true, and, that was something, which I was going to ask you, but just, before this, so how did you, come up with this idea? Was it just, you observed that, devotees could be better engaged with this, or was it some, teaching skills, in contemporary world, you observed, that’s, that’s what affects, that’s what works in, for Kali Yuga minds, which are quite easily distracted, or how did you come up? Now, that you mentioned that, I can’t remember, how I got into it, you know, doing it like that, I really, if it comes to my mind, you know, how that started, I’ll, I’ll mention it, but I, I can’t think of it right now, on now, it’s, what I remember is, it’s, it’s, we’ve been doing it for so long.
Yes. It’s just part of the culture now. Yes, that’s so true.
And, it just, of course, when we are having courses, in Bhakti Shastra, and other places, there, it works. I have also been able to do that, because the audience knows the speaker well, and then, it is much easier to do it. But, it also, in one sense, it’s not just, Sravana, and then almost becomes like, Bodhayanta Parasparam.
So, what Krishna is telling, and that is much more, in 10.9, the Shanti Charaman teacher. So, that’s beautiful. So, now, just going back to the next point, I felt that, one aspect of community building, which is, which is quite distinctive, is, whenever I come there, you have so many children, and, I had to talk with the devotees’ parents also, they told how, you know, you yourself spend a lot of time with the children, and they open up with you so nicely.
So, that is a major concern for devotees, in the, in the West, especially Indian devotees. I would say, for all parents, it’s a concern, about the direction the children are taking, especially Indian parents in the West. So, in fact, even the parents themselves are not so serious about their own tradition or their culture.
They want the children to at least be aware of it. So, how did the children outreach or children education, how has that been shaped over the decades? I have to admit, it was a revelation to me, about kids. I’m the youngest of four children in my family.
So, as the youngest, I had no younger siblings to take care of or to know. When I joined the Christian Conscious Movement, I’m younger than most of my God brothers. I mean, I have a few God brothers and God sisters.
I have a few that I’m in contact with, that were initiated when they were 13 and 14 and so forth. But, I didn’t, I didn’t really have much appreciation for kids. I always, as you know, I was a brahmachari for 13 years, and a lot of that contributed to my feeling like, well, kids just disturb the class often, and they’re not that useful.
I hadn’t developed part of my brain. I mean, there’s still many parts I haven’t developed. But, growing up at Iskcon Silicon Valley, it was a great benefit to me, not growing up there, but being there since the beginning, and watching kids grow up in Krishna consciousness.
At first, yes, I was, I’d noticed that they disturbed the class and whatever. But then, I started taking more of an interest in them. One incident that happened was, I was, I was curious about whether kids would be interested in, and could actually distribute books starting at five years old.
So, I took a group with chaperones helping me of kids who were five, out on book distribution door-to-door, just to show them how to do it. And they were fascinated by it. They loved it.
We had such an outing, then from then on, every time we’d ask if the kids wanted to go out on book distribution, they’d raise both hands. Everybody wanted to go out. And I also saw people’s reactions to these bright-faced children, you know, coming with us, who were explaining what the Bhagavad Gita is in their own simple way.
And people just buy the books. Like, one day I was with these five, five-year-olds, and we approached somebody’s house, and there was a woman out on her porch, and there was a white picket fence around her house. And I was, you know, sort of communicating with her non-verbally.
And she looked, and she goes, she noticed, you know, me in a dhoti and the kids. And she said, no, thanks, I’m a Christian. The kids didn’t know what that meant.
And they just sort of filed through the gate, and surrounded her, and started showing Bhagavad Gita, and said, this is the cow, and here’s Krishna, and this and that. And she was so charmed by them. I stayed outside the gate.
But she looked over to me, and she goes, all right, how much is it? And I thought, yeah, this is a nice programme. But then I started noticing all the qualities of the kids, that these are unusual children to be born in these families, or to have come to Christian consciousness at an early age. And they had an unusually high acumen for hearing, and chanting, and learning.
And I also found out that kids thrive, and this is true through study also. There’s the Sanskrit effect study, that when kids learn long strings of Sanskrit verses, they go into a kind of a trance. So we started doing this.
We had kids book distribution, which has thrived. And a lot of these kids grew up distributing books, and it’s a way in which they’ve been able to integrate into the world in a safe way, so they know what it is. But it’s within the context of presenting Krishna consciousness to others.
So it’s not this abrupt change. There’s this world, that world. It’s vidyam ca vidyam ca yas tad vedo bhayam sahah.
One can learn the process of nescience and transcendental knowledge side by side, can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death, and enjoy the full blessings of immortality. That’s sort of our theme verse. And so then I spent more and more time with the kids, and there’s a lot more to be said about that.
But community means kids. Community means kids, because they bring everything together. If the kids are thriving, and they thrive by seeing peers doing well, and when they thrive, then the parents become happy at heart, and they want to participate more, and they do participate more, because their kids are eager to be in Krishna consciousness.
You can see I get exuberant about this. So I’ll stop there. I’m becoming exuberant hearing about this.
I was just imagining when you played the world, five years old, I was imagining, must be a very sweet sight. I have photos of that time. It’s relishable.
So five-year-old is quite young, but for them it’s like adventure. They’re going out of their home and doing something new. I think Prabhupada also says in one letter that, if children are trained, then austerity can also be like fun for them.
So, of course, not exactly austerity, but it can be quite an adventure. I never thought of it like that. And for the kid that’s going to meet them strangers and tell them something, it’s quite a new thing, exciting thing for them to do.
That’s true. Oh, yeah. It’s definitely an austerity to walk out the door and go out into public, not knowing what’s going to happen or whether you’re going to get refused.
I think mentally it’s the greatest austerity, and there’s some physical austerity involved also. But what I find is that when anybody goes out for book distribution, they develop what I call street smarts. They start to see how the world works, and it’s not theoretical anymore.
The three modes of material nature become revealed to them right before their eyes. They also learn how to communicate. And I find with kids, when they start doing it from a young age, they become so expert at everything, how to handle Lakshmi, how to organise themselves, how to speak to somebody you’ve never met before.
And this is invaluable. You can go get a master’s, Ph.D. in something and be completely inept at social skills or communication or getting along with other people. Emotional intelligence doesn’t develop.
But through book distribution, combined with hearing and chanting, you get super kids. You get super kids. And it also counteracts the possible pernicious effects of sending kids off to these big institutions where they get all kinds of perhaps association that’s not so favourable.
They have to come out of the community fortified and with a taste, momentum. So they’re giving association, not drinking it in. So having this book distribution in the community for kids, along with intensive hearing and chanting, which they develop into it and that just becomes their norm.
They turn into what we want them to turn into is perfectly integrated human beings who are Krishna conscious and can live a Krishna conscious lifestyle and also show by example and by their precept, how others can do it too. Wow. Yeah, I never thought about this this way.
It’s a whole universe. When you earlier mentioned the Vidhyamcha, I was thinking how it would imply, but it’s true. In some ways, if kids are going, this is, I think social studies also been there, that if kids are growing in a very culture that is very different from the mainstream culture, then for them to go out, it is a challenge.
In fact, if you consider the most insular culture in the West, probably the Amish culture and they have that period when the kids can go out and wander in the world. Something Roush Frank, they call it and then they come back. Some of them come, some of them don’t.
But this is a very, you could say, very safe as well as effective way of giving them contact with the world and the idea of social skills being developed or emotional intelligence being developed. That’s amazing. You can’t function and work without that.
So that’s so beautifully true. I’d also mention that, you know, basic things, important skills to develop. I think one of the most important skills to develop, I don’t know if I’d call it a skill, but it’s the ability to process rejection.
People don’t like to get rejected. Our ego becomes offended and so forth. You learn that on book distribution.
And one of our teachers who’s facilitated kids book distribution for a couple of decades now, Kameshwari Dasi, and she tells about one of the first kids book distribution sorties she took out and somebody opened the door and then, get out of here, slam the door. And the kids were taken aback. So they went out, it was an apartment complex, they sat together in the playground area and she helped them process it.
What just happened here? Because some of the kids were a little shocked. You know, why would somebody not like us a priori before meeting us? And see, they talked about it. These kids have experienced that already.
I mean, you know, for anybody who’s skilled in something, they have to be able to have this ability to go out and face rejection. And if you’ve learned that skill, nothing can stop you anymore. That’s amazing.
I think that’s one of the main reasons why in college life becomes more difficult because in say, kids at home, they are protected by, provided by their parents. But in college, you are not and you have to handle rejection from friends, from various places. So that’s amazing.
So in one sense, you could say book distribution is almost like a crucible where character is being built while we are actually giving Prabhupada’s mercy to others. But it’s not just that, we are of course spiritually benefited. But even from this world’s perspective, the character is being shaped in a very tangible and valuable way.
Prabhu, we’ve changed that to the main point. But the way I present book distribution is that it is high sadhana. And the reason we’re doing book distribution is for our own purification.
When you start with that baseline, then there’s no reason to not go out. It’s a sadhana, it’s part of our practise. Everything else is extra.
Whether we distribute books or not is inconsequential. The fact that you went out, you crossed the threshold, you went out for your own purification, to go beyond your comfort zone. And you did the right thing, you tried it.
That’s the sadhana. And there are other aspects to hear and chant before you go out and so forth. The four laws of book distribution starting with your sadhana must be strong.
That’s where we start with book distribution. And that’s what we teach. And then nobody’s disappointed because oftentimes people say, well, I can’t distribute any books.
That’s not the point. The point is to go out with the other devotees and do sankirtan, which means samyakirtan. And when you do that, you’ll improve in devotional service.
That’s why we’re doing it. Don’t worry about distributing the books. That happens automatically.
That’s true. In one sense, you are practically applying karmanyavadi karaste. Krishna says don’t be attached to the results.
Yeah, that’s amazing. So when we are talking about book distribution, we talked about many aspects now. So to what extent do you feel that the book distribution translates into people becoming devotees, say, from your experience in Silicon Valley? At one level, we know Krishna says manushyanaam sahasraishu.
So one among thousand. And even if people come for our programmes, like in India, we do, there are Bhagavata courses or whatever. So thousands of people may come for Janmashtami festival, but very few will say register for any course or any regular connection.
So is there some kind of, one book distribution means we travel to different places and distribute books, like a bus party. But what you have also focused on with your community model is more in a particular area where people can have access to a community. So how is that worked out in terms of from book distribution to the journey of people coming to temple? Is that a major way people are joining the community also? Yes, it is.
There’s a direct correlation. There’s a one-to-one correlation that can be measured. However, to understand the efficacy of book distribution, one must start study gardening because the gardener knows that there are certain amounts of seeds as mentioned in the Bible also, that when landing on certain types of soil will have their ultimate effect.
I got a couple of seeds when I was in Mayapur from a tamarind pod. Actually, I was visiting a holy place with Janani Vasu Prabhu, and he picked up a pod off the ground of tamarind. He said, here, crack it open and eat it.
And it happened to be a tree under which Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda had danced. So I did, and then I kept the seeds and I brought them home, and I said, I’ll try to plant them. And I put them in the ground after following the directions I found on YouTube, how to grow tamarind seeds.
And lo and behold, they didn’t come up. So I just thought, well, what can you do? I tried. And however, I kept watering them.
And a few weeks after the initial period where I thought they’d come up, they came up and I started dancing in ecstasy. Like, wow, they’re there. So we have to trust seeds.
There is no book that ever goes out that doesn’t have an effect. This is absolutely true. The holy name has its effect.
Namah Chintamani Krishnas. And these books, Tadvagvisargo Janataga Viplavo Yasmin Pratislokam Abhadyabhatyapi Namanyanantasya, they’re full of the names of the Lord. They can’t not be effective.
It’s impossible. So the seeds will have their effect. We have to understand that.
But Gardner knows that where we place the seeds under different conditions, they’ll come up at different rates of time. So that’s the baseline to understand book distribution. Second point, if I keep going on here, is that books change human society, period.
That’s how systemic change takes place socially in society. It’s also how we transport culture across time and geography. Books are the delivery system.
They not only transform society. Look at Darwin’s theory of evolution. It came from a book.
If someone organises his or her thoughts and puts it in a book and takes the trouble to publish it and what to speak of it gets distributed, the effect is generational. So everyone everywhere knows about evolution. They write about it regularly in their self-help books.
There’s always a point you come to where people say, yeah, this is because we evolved in a certain way. And they just accept it. Why? It was in a book.
And there are political movements that started. The whole American Revolution came from a book, a booklet. It’s the highest per capita distribution of any book still to date that was distributed in the colonies before the American Revolution that sparked the revolution.
There’s a book by Thomas Paine called Common Sense. It’s a great book, by the way, amazingly written. So the point is books are what change human society, period.
That’s why despots burn books. They don’t want people to read them because humans love books. They’re going to read them.
You’re going to get change. And our books always have their effect. There is no case where the books go in vain.
It’s impossible. It doesn’t happen. It’s just a matter of the facility we create around them but that the seed will come up in due course of time.
So we also have to be ready for that. That’s true. In one sense, if you consider what you’re talking about the power of books.
Recently, I was reading about this book by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. He wrote a book called Gulag Archipelago, which described the atrocities in the Soviet concentration camps, which were called Gulags. And that book destroyed all the moral credibility, whatever the communist regime had that.
So many people say that that book brought down the entire Soviet Empire. So it’s true books have enormous power. And then that we could say our books have not just, we have a, as you said, Tadvaag Visargo, there is spiritual power here, not just intellectual power or power of wisdom.
There is a power of Krishna manifesting. So if I understand right, for the gardening example, you are saying is that we cannot set a time frame. And in that sense, we may not be able to quantify that.
Okay, this book, when will it lead to transformation? But books will have effective transformative effect sooner or later. Actually, I’m saying the opposite. If you’re a gardener, you can set a time frame.
That’s why gardeners plant at a certain season, and they reap the harvest at a certain time. And it’s very scientific. I got a lot more into gardening during the pandemic, especially the beginning, and started noticing and studying up on, you know, when do you plant certain things? And when do you transfer the seedling to a bigger bed, you know, so it doesn’t get eaten and so forth? So I think that, yes, there is this aspect that there may be an expectation that everything grows all at the same time.
I want to see a one-to-one correlation measurable. Well, you have to know how to measure it, and gardeners know that. They understand the rhythm of things.
But there are various elements in gardening that have to be there for you to be successful. And the more you include those ingredients, like starting seeds in pristine soil and nourishing soil, and also knowing when to transfer them to the bigger, not giving too much water, giving just the right amount, and protecting from predators. And, you know, every plant has a certain kind of soil that it likes.
There are plants like gardenias. They like acidic soil, and other ones will not thrive in that. So I think it’s, you know, gardening is a science.
It’s also a mystery. There’s a mystery of the seed. I mean, what is a seed anyway? But we’re planting seeds.
We’re gardeners, as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, and we can become more expert at gardening. That’s beautiful. There is a scientific aspect to it and a mystical aspect to it.
The scientific aspect we can try to replicate as much as possible, and the mystical aspect we in one sense wait for Krishna’s mercy to manifest. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you.
So taking this point a little forward, since it’s about books. So now, in one sense, Prabhupada’s books and the message therein is universal and timeless. At the same time, the people’s language changes to some extent.
So, especially for Western audiences, we find that people can easily relate with Prabhupada’s books. Or if we provide the book, and then like some Western distributors, they told me that the book is what helps us to develop a relationship with them. And when they come with us, come to us, then actually they start diving into the book.
And then they go deeper. So, what all does the book do on the person’s spiritual journey, especially that person is from a different culture, with a different set of linguistic familiarity and other things? Everybody is different. And some people are, as you know, Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, that, Some people have a naturally elevated capacity to read these books and appreciate them right away.
Others require time and association and culture. So, it varies according to the person. So, you are seeing this more in terms of people’s, say, orientation in terms of mode and spirituality, rather than so much in terms of linguistic familiarity or cultural compatibility or things like that.
Well, that’s part of it. You know, some people who are born into more kind of Brahminically based families, whether in the East or the West, have more confidence about reading certain types of things. You know, when they see a first chapter of the Bhagavad Gita that has all kinds of proper nouns that they’ve never heard of before, they don’t freak out, because they’re used to reading the Iliad and the Odyssey or whatever.
You know, that’s just their mode. Other people, they’re going to require somebody to walk them through it and explain the processes. But I would say this, I will say this, that Prabhupada’s books are potent.
And we cannot underestimate how powerful they are if people just hear them. Prabhupada himself said when he first heard his spiritual master, it was difficult for him to understand everything, but he continued to listen. And then everything became crystal clear.
Not my words, crystal clear. But the point is that we cannot take the very clinical view. It’s like, well, okay, there’s this and that in Prabhupada’s books, for instance, vocabulary or certain concepts that may seem archaic to some people in the present-day culture, and then discount them and develop a mental block that we can’t present Prabhupada’s books.
Actually, what I’m finding is the opposite, is that people are hungry to hear the truth. The straightforwardness of Prabhupada’s books is refreshing to many people, to most people who have an inkling for spiritual realisation. And for instance, Kaushtubha Prabhu and Raghunath have proved this.
They’re very straightforward in their presentation of the Bhagavatam, and thousands of people are tuned in. They like to hear them discuss the controversial topics. It’s not a hurdle necessarily if you’re faithful that, yes, the potency is in the book, and therefore I should present it.
At the same time, we are duty-bound to present what we’ve heard from Prabhupada’s books in a way that people can digest them. This is called, what Prabhupada says, realisation. Same message, not change, not screwing anything out of it, not chopping here and there to take out certain parts that may seem odd to us in the cultural context, but representing it in a way that we know, through our intelligence and our integration with the same culture, be appreciated by the audience.
And that’s our duty. That’s what parampara is. And so we have to do that and make sure that the message gets inculcated into people’s hearts, no matter what culture they’re from.
That’s what we’re supposed to do. That’s why they give us the big bucks, right? Yeah, big bucks. That’s a very true point what you mentioned about potency.
I was thinking when you’re speaking about that, that even Prabhupada is praying in Markini Bhagavad Dharma, that song which he composed. Now Prabhupada is actually saying, make my words understandable to them. So, but what is he saying? If you see, he’s not really worried about my English pronunciation and this.
He’s actually thinking Krishna, you have the potency. You are there in everyone’s hearts. It is by your power that people have gone into illusion.
By your power, they can come out of illusion. So make me an instrument for bringing them out of illusion. So we could say that these material factors, we can’t let them become our own inhibiting blocks.
So if we are ourselves diffident about it, then that’s what will become a bigger obstacle for people to take the books. Then what is in the books? Such a nice point Prabhupada because you’re on the front line everywhere and you know these things and I’ve seen it happen many times when the devotees are being so careful and they’re actually holding back and finally the people kind of like, all right, you give me the real thing. Where’s the other stuff? You know, they become forceful and that’s like tell us where the place is, you know, we want to go there and tell us all this stuff.
Yeah, you know this I had an experience. We had brought some Western yoga students to a tour of India, went to Vrindavan and a couple of other places. So we went to Vrindavan and we tried to give a very rational presentation of Krishna lifting Vrindavan.
These are completely new people, they knew nothing. But then afterwards they were asking us, tell us what is the story behind this place? So they didn’t, the idea that the miraculous events happened, that was, we thought they will have a bigger problem with it than what they had. They were just eager to know.
Now in one sense, it’s not that they are going to immediately believe it and accept it. But if they have come to that place, they want to know, okay, what attracts people to this place? So in that sense, sometimes we may have more hesitation than what is warranted. And so another point you mentioned was very striking that straightforwardness of Prabhupada’s presentation is also appealing.
That’s one of the things which struck me also when my spiritual journey many years ago that it was what Prabhupada wants us to do is very clear from his books. I had read other spiritual books. It is all feel good, motivation, inspiration.
But in the end, what am I supposed to do? That was never very clear. Good point. Yeah, that’s a really good point.
There’s something very clear to do at the end. That’s true. And then the other point which you mentioned was also that it’s our responsibility to present.
So I think that happens in both ways. If the book distributors are themselves trained and they have heard and chanted, then they are inspired to go out. They will present appealingly.
And then also if there is a channel for people to connect, then at those places, their questions and whatever they have, they will get a more appealing presentation. Yes, Prabhu. And I also say we shouldn’t feel hesitant to experiment.
And we also shouldn’t feel bad if we don’t immediately connect with our audience. Look in the context of Shulavyasadev himself. Why did he have that conversation? And here are stern words from his guru, Narada Muni.
He was, Shulavyasadev, searching for the right message. If he has to search for it, according to the particular era he’s presenting in, then we certainly will also. And this is the preoccupation of those engaged in the parampara.
They’re constantly, like if you have two knobs. A God-brother of mine gave this example. I really like it.
Like in a shower where you have two knobs, hot and cold. So like you’re trying to get the shower just right, you know. And so preachings like that, constantly adjusting the knobs.
Like, is that hot? Oops, too hot. Now that’s too cold. Get it just right for the audience.
That’s a memorable example. I think we can easily every day remember that when we take a bath. Sometimes I say that, you know, there’s faithfulness and there is resourcefulness.
Both are required. Faithfulness to connect us with our tradition and resourcefulness to connect with our contemporary society. And so which one we need to, maybe I’m not being resourceful enough.
That knob needs to be turned on a little bit more. So that’s true. I like it.
You talk about Vyasadev. I never thought of that past time in this way. So it was not that Vyasadev was wrong.
It was just that he, the way you put it was that he was, he was searching for the way. And the way he adopted was what Navami told you. That’s not what you should be doing.
So that’s a much more, you could say, accessible and relevant understanding of that. And also more respectful. They would not go wrong.
But he was just thinking what would benefit people the most. Well, if I may quote one of my mentors, especially in writing, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, write fat. Because a phrase you told me in Mayapur when we met, it resonates with me every single day.
And that is you can never edit a blank page, but you can always edit a bad page. And so, you know, don’t hesitate. Just because you see some fault in your presentation or, you know, you have some mental block, you go ahead and present.
You can always refine it later. And when else are you going to refine it? Other than when you find some reaction that you weren’t expecting that goes not the way you wanted it to. And so we have to move forward.
We have to go out and preach. And if our preaching isn’t perfect, how are you going to perfect it? Unless you, you know, you’re writing fat. Write fat.
I’m going to get a tattoo someday. Maybe next life. Be your words, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu.
Write fat and edit later as you go. Thank you. I’m humbled that I could be of some service.
I never thought of that in the broader context of preaching. I thought of it more in terms of writing only. But that’s true.
Recently I was talking with one devotee who had written an article and he thought it would be a very good article and nobody appreciated it. So he was a little disappointed. I made the same point that instead of seeing it as a failure, you can see it as feedback.
That, you know, okay, it’s not that you didn’t get a result. You just didn’t get the result that you expected. So, okay, I need to tune it.
I want to share the example of the knob with him now. So that’s beautiful. And it’s never over till it’s over anyway.
I mean, I’ve given classes that I hated the class I gave. And then someone will come up to me later and go, that changed my life. You know, the thing you said, it was like, well, you know, it’s not my business to hate what I do.
It’s my business to try to present according to what I’ve heard in parampara. And then, you know, it’s not a beauty contest. And if it touches somebody, then, you know, the job is done.
Not a beauty contester. That’s an amazing way of putting it. What we are doing doesn’t have to, say, win awards or look beautiful.
We are just doing a service and people will benefit. I think this is so important. Because especially in today’s social media world, comparison becomes so easy.
Now, I put a video and how many views come for my video? Somebody else has put a video. How many views come for that video? So, it’s created a lot of unnecessary comparison and insecurity because of that. So, remembering that.
I like that comparison insecurity. I’m taking that one. That’s fantastic.
So, just going back to an earlier point, which you had mentioned about book distribution to community. So, you said that it is going to happen. And you mentioned that as gardeners, we can actually put a time frame.
But it’s just that there are different seeds and different seeds will require different time frames. So, in general, say, in Silicon Valley, when you distribute books, how does the journey work? Are there some introductory programmes that those who read books can come to? Or is there a trajectory for a person who has received a book to connect with the community further? There is a trajectory if we design for it. And, therefore, the preaching outreach is unlimited because we’re always filling the gaps in the bridge.
And we have to look at it as a holistic approach in order to be successful. And so, what I always like to do is find the gaps and then brainstorm how to fill them. For instance, when we meet, let’s just say, a Western person who’s orientated towards self-realisation, but is not so dialled into what a Hare Krishna temple looks like inside, especially if it’s all one culture.
And so, okay, where is the next landing place that this person can come to in order to imbibe the philosophy and at the same time not be disoriented, feel disoriented? And in designing for that, that’s where we flesh out the holistic process for presenting Krishna consciousness. And so, we have to be looking at that. And if you draw it in a diagram, say, okay, here’s the gap, and there’s a way to fill it.
If I don’t identify the gap, I can’t fill it. And this is one of the ways in business management. You look for the obstacles and then brainstorm how to go around the obstacle.
And once you do that, then there’s no restriction in how you can grow. So, it’s the same thing for our outreach. We have to find the gaps and fill them.
That’s beautiful. So, in one sense, you’re taking the bridge metaphor and expanding it further. So, we may build a bridge, but how comfortable, how safe, how continuous is the bridge? So, if there are gaps in it, people may come half the way, but they may not want to come further ahead.
They may take step and then fall in the river. It’s like, hey, we just lost another one. It’s like, well, why don’t you fix the bridge? There’s a gaping hole in it.
Fix it. Yes, true. So, when we talk about this bridge and the way you design it, So, how much does organisation play a role? At one level, devotees are individuals and everyone needs to be individually inspired to distribute books.
But at the same time, having some kind of structured approach also enables to coordinate and execute and assess. So, how do you balance between structure and say individual initiative and freedom in book distribution, especially in the community at large? Yes, well, what I conceived these four laws of book distribution. The first is your suddenness must be strong.
The second is you must get books because you can’t distribute books you don’t have. The third is the more you show, the more you sell. And the fourth is you must organise.
And when managers are organising and people feel naturally, a naturally harmonious environment. There’s a paradigm explaining this in corporate management that if people feel that conditions are getting worse in their environment, then they quit. If they feel that they’re staying the same, then they do just what they have to.
And if people feel that the facility is ever increasing, then they do more than they have to. And so, we have this programme called ABS, Always Better Service. And so, we look for the rooms for improvement after every event and we make a list.
And then we say we have to make at least three improvements every month. That’s our quota. Big or small, doesn’t matter.
But when people show up and they feel, sometimes they don’t even notice it specifically, but they feel like, I think it’s a little better than it was last time. Then they’re encouraged to do more than they have to. And this is the power of organisation.
For instance, when going out for book distribution, the most difficult part is just going out. It’s the logistics of getting everyone out the door, books in cars, going to a particular place. And that is supply chain management, transportation.
It’s very logistical, just like in the military. They have people that specialise in these things. And the more we specialise in it, the more the experience of the person who walks out the door, gets in the car, is unencumbered.
And therefore, they want to do it again. And so we have to organise in ways for the community, for specific services, so that it’s always improving, always better service. And if we don’t have that, then life becomes either boring or depressing.
So we have to use organisation in order to create an encouraging environment. Okay, so this is an amazing vision. So organisation is not so much about controlling or restricting people, but it is more of organising for facilitating people.
So if the nectar is in book distribution, then if they have to worry about and they get unpleasant experiences, with the logistics of getting the books and going out, then that will deter them. So it would almost say that it’s like in Krishna Katha, when we are giving a class, it is we are not inhibiting the speaker in what they speak and the interaction between the speaker and the audience. But we need to have good sound system.
We need to have a reasonably comfortable place to sit for everyone. And so organisation is meant for that, taking care of the logistics, so that the essential Krishna conscious exchange can happen. So that’s what I think you are saying applies for book distribution.
Exactly, exactly. The example going back to hearing and chanting. If our main process is hearing and chanting, how much facility are we creating for that to happen? For instance, if you go into a temple room and the microphone doesn’t work, or it takes five minutes, you waste five perfectly good minutes trying to get it to work, and people can’t hear you.
And also you can’t broadcast it properly. Then your service is not complete. So we are always looking for an edge on how to create a better environment for hearing and chanting.
And it makes a huge, huge difference. This is organisation. So we find the core principle, what are we trying to promote, and then build the facility unlimitedly around that.
In other words, unlimitedly refine it, make it better, always be on the cutting edge. That’s what’s exciting. And that’s what drives a movement, is we’re taking what we’re supposed to be doing, the core principle, and then we’re organising around it.
Organisation should follow the core principle. For instance, preaching is our core value and activity. And we should manage to facilitate the outreach.
That’s organisation. Otherwise, you get the tail wagging the dog. Tail wagging the dog.
Bureaucracy, yeah. That’s true. It’s a good example.
Bureaucracy, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which kills the spirit of the organisation. Prabhupada said that you should create an environment in which people want to do services, individual, spontaneous, and voluntary. By the way, that’s what ISV stands for.
That’s our internal mission statement. Individual, spontaneous, and voluntary. It also stands for ISKCON of Silicon Valley.
But that’s the mode that facilitates a community. Organisation based on how to make that happen. You know, somehow I talk about individual, spontaneous, and voluntary.
When I thought of that, I had come up with the acronym ISV. I thought I’ll share with you sometime. But you’re already using it.
That’s wonderful. So, Prabhu, since you brought this up, you are in Silicon Valley. That’s one of the, you could say, one of the most progressive, competitive places in the world.
It sets the trends for America and the world. So, are there any special challenges or opportunities for book distribution and overall sharing Krishna Consciousness in Silicon Valley? One thing that I noticed is that I haven’t seen any other place in the world where we have regular programmes going on in Fortune 500 companies or like Google and Intel and other is Salesforce and all those companies. Then you have monthly programmes going on and people are coming and getting cultivated.
But are there any special challenges and opportunities in that particular place? Yeah, there are lots of opportunities to speak to entrepreneurial type people or people who are well educated and have good jobs, but then feel that they’re not getting everything they want out of life. I mean, that’s the biggest opportunity is people have the job that they always dreamed of. They’re making the money they always wanted to make, but then they’re not happy.
That’s a great opportunity because they’re going like, what happened? There must be something else. They may not be overtly spiritual, but they still have this enquiring spirit and they want to hear some kind of presentation that tells them why they are suffering and why they’re not getting what they want out of life. And so that’s a huge opportunity around Silicon Valley because of its supposed affluence.
I find that people are rather stifled because they get into these jobs and they have to work a lot harder than they thought they’d work. They don’t have time for themselves, even though they got money. They don’t have a life and they don’t like it and they want something more.
And we’re able to tell them, we have it. We have an oasis. You can visit and you can apply these principles to your life and you’ll get what you’re actually looking for.
And they love that message. That’s true. Even in India, I’ve seen that there are certain demographics where we have been able to reach a lot of people.
Engineering students is one and software people are also another. So what you said in one sense that you get something that you want and then you find that it’s not what you thought it would be. So that creates an opening in the veil of illusion that people want to enquire.
Yes. Yeah. Where else are they going to go? They don’t have any other place to go.
They got the best of everything here and now it’s not enough. So there must be another answer. That’s sort of the opening for a lot of people here in Silicon Valley.
So in the company programme that I have seen, so how did that start off? Is it that because devotees were working there, they invited you and they organised a programme or because that is quite distinctive. And how has it been growing over time? It started with devotees who have jobs in corporations. Corporations nowadays are very much open to giving their employees various trainings in being more efficient in life, even spiritual perspectives, not religious so much.
Many companies are highly resistant to that because they know that sectarianism will arise. So you have to present spiritual technology. And we had a few guest speakers come in various places and employees of those companies were able to invite them.
For instance, His Holiness Raghunath Swami would come and speak at a place. And then we realised there’s an opening to systematise that. And we started the Conscious Living Network.
And that spread to many, many corporations around the Valley. So then because I was here, I started going to those places weekly. I’d speak at Google, Salesforce, Intel on a regular basis in front of an audience.
And people would come to a meeting room, sometimes with a stage. And then we do PowerPoints and present live. And we noticed that it was well received.
And then, of course, during the pandemic, when everyone got locked down, we were able to transfer that audience online. And that became our spiritual fitness broadcast that happens every Friday. And from there, we saw that there was a need.
There were very sincere seekers who were coming every week, month after month. And then they started moving to our bhakti community, where they’re getting very straightforward Krishna consciousness. And many of them now are practising.
And we also found that even during the corporate programmes that I was going to live, people were very open to learning mantra meditation. And we would have an extra class after my presentation to show them how to do mantra meditation. So, for instance, at Salesforce in San Francisco, we had a group of 24 people at one time chanting japa together, meeting regularly at work to chant.
So that’s how it started and how it continues now. That’s amazing that people are chanting japa in their office hours. And the company is facilitating that.
So much facilitating, you know, the head of Salesforce has this ethos that he gives a portion of his profits, company profits to good causes. And he also has created meditation rooms in those big buildings downtown San Francisco, so people can repair to those rooms and do meditation and stuff. Yes.
And I had spoken at Salesforce. The devotees took me to those rooms. I was amazed.
So, it just requires what you said, like non-sectarian presentation, if we do. And there are a lot of opportunities to reach out to people even in elite circles. Yes, that’s true.
And maybe one or two last questions. I don’t want to hold you up for too long. So, since we are talking about, this is, Bhadrapurnima is coming up and book distribution.
We’re talking, we just emphasise often to try to distribute Bhagavatam and entire Bhagavatam sets at this time. So, two questions about this. From what, as far as I have read, Prabhupada, during Prabhupada’s time, Bhadrapurnima was not really celebrated.
So, do we see this as an example of Yukta Vairagya using this festival in devotional sense? Of course, it is mentioned in the tradition, but Prabhupada did not emphasise it so much. Or is it that just our movement has evolved to a place where we can do this and earlier it was not that easily possible? Regarding Bhadrapurnima, it’s yet another excuse to have a time-bound goal for distributing books. Book distribution is quantifiable.
It’s one of the aspects of book distribution that makes it so expandable, it’s measurable. Whatever is measurable can be increased. And part of measurement means there has to be a goal.
And so, we’re always looking for goals and an end point where devotees can measure. After all, if you go out into the world, when I go for my morning walk, I notice there’s a basketball court, then there’s a football field, and there’s a baseball field. They all have lines on them.
And in the football field, they have goal posts. Without that, you just have a vast universe with unlimited space. And as humans, we don’t know what to do with that.
So, when we have a good excuse for a time-bound goal, a good excuse means it’s highly spiritual. We like to lean into that. So, we’ve had for years this Gita Jayanti, which now we call World Gita Day, so that it’s more accessible to people in a wider level.
And it’s been very successful because there’s a good excuse to glorify the Bhagavad Gita and distribute the Bhagavad Gita for Gita Jayanti or World Gita Day. Under our nose all these years was this Bhajapurnima. I read the verse in the Bhagavatam, in the 12th canto, 13th chapter, 13th verse, that says, if you give away a Bhagavatam on this particular day, you go to the supreme destination.
So, in one of our brainstorming sessions, which we have regularly, like how do we increase from here, we discussed this. And I said, how about this as a new Gita Jayanti for Bhagavatams? And it immediately resonated, and we set out to put that as a reasonable goal. And we had a modicum of success the first couple of years.
It resonated with some devotees. And then during the pandemic in 2020, it just took off like a rocket. We had a goal of distributing at least 10,000 sets of Bhagavatams, which we made pre-pandemic in Tirupati at the GBC meeting.
And we thought that that was a lofty goal at the time because we had only hit 7,000. And 3,000 is a lot of Bhagavatams. It’s a big gap.
So, we pronounced, and the videotape is there, that we are going to distribute 10,000. And then the pandemic started. And so many people said, well, I mean, now obviously it can’t be done.
But when you start with the idea that it can be done, anything can be done, you just have to work backwards from that assumption. So, we worked backwards from the assumption that it can be done, and we figured out how to do it. And the technology to distribute Bhagavatams under lockdown spread all over the world.
And we were able to communicate with people all over the world through Zoom. And we found the development of a tighter network, tighter than we’ve ever had before on a global level. And we smashed that goal.
We did over 20,000 Bhagavatam sets. And so for this year, we set the, again, impossible goal of 25,000 sets of Bhagavatams. And Prabhu, we have like one week left to September 20th.
And so we ask everyone to participate. And everything counts. That’s our philosophy, is a lot of devotees each doing a little bit.
And working together for a global goal. So, competition doesn’t need to be pushed so hard that we’re working against one another. Competition is naturally there.
It’s a product of us being individual souls. So, nowadays, it’s very helpful to look in terms of unification. And this Bhadrapurnima is a way that we can unify the world around this common goal.
And that’s happening. And we’re going to smash it again. And we’re going to continue smashing it around the world as we incrementally increase the goal for Bhadrapurnima.
So, everyone who wants to be part of this, the historic, it’s never been done before. No one’s ever distributed 25,000 sets of Bhagavatams. I guarantee you.
It’s never happened in the history of the world. And so you can be a part of this historic programme. Yes, Prabhu.
It’s true. Last year when I heard about 20,000, I was stunned because it was extraordinary. And I love the statement that what he said instead of saying it can’t be done.
Let’s start with it can be done and then work backward. And I think Prabhupada also called it impossible as a word in the fool’s dictionary. So, yes.
So, again this point about Bhadrapurnima. You said you started it about 4-5 years ago or was it something? Yeah, 4 years ago. Started 4 years ago and there were only a few participants.
India, Bhima Prabhu was into it. He got it going in India a little bit here and there because they’re already, you know, motivated there because of really good leadership. And a little bit in the UK and America.
But then now it’s universal. It’s become a big thing all over the world. Every continent has gotten into it.
And we’ve organised around the principle. So, once you have an end point and a goal, then you can get everybody into it. Yes.
And again, the way we view it is, it’s not just because of the numbers. Although we look at numbers a lot, but it’s what it makes of us to achieve the goal. The effects of reaching a goal together in book distribution has a systemic beneficial effect in the whole community.
It makes the whole community better. We discover technologies that we didn’t have before when we work towards a common goal. I’ll give one example.
NASA, when they build a rocket, the systems of management they build around developing technology that has to be so precise so the rocket doesn’t crash, become universally available later. Management that’s taught in universities comes a lot from NASA because of the way they’ve developed systems for management to develop these rockets that shoot off. And then those technologies get exported to all kinds of other enterprises.
And so in a similar way, as we’re developing ourselves to achieve these goals, that becomes part of our community, our ethos. The way we work together and the systems become widely available to everybody. So, this is how we improve.
In ISKCON, Prabhupada put it like this. He said, always create a fresh challenge so that the devotees will want to rise up and meet it. And there’s another aspect to this, and that is that we’re dependent on Lord Chaitanya’s mercy to expand the Sankirtan movement.
Srila Prabhupada gave us the means through which to spread the movement through his book distribution. And he also showed us by example that nothing’s impossible. So now, every time we set a goal that seems impossible, but we smash it, we get faith that we’re not doing it.
It’s Lord Chaitanya that’s doing it. And meanwhile, our capacity increases. So, we have this saying that the numbers don’t really matter that much.
It’s just a little more than we did before, because birds fly in the sky as high as they’re able, but the sky is unlimited. So, what we’re looking for universally, globally, is that we all increase our capacity. And as we do, we become a better movement.
How much better? It’s unlimited. We have to keep refining and getting better. Otherwise, everyone will get bored and go somewhere else.
Has to be fresh. That’s beautiful. So, when Prabhupada said create a fresh challenge, and this is a very striking example of this.
So, what you did, your vision and your, you could say, divine passion for book distribution, you translated into a tangible goal that is both tangible and traditional. And now Bhadrapurnam, as you said, it’s just to become one of the major events in our movement’s calendar. And everybody’s electrified by it.
So, I think it’s a debt that the movement, whole movement owes to you for creating this exciting challenge and opportunity for all of us. So, it just turns out that it’s a perfect, it’s a perfect occasion because it’s got the scriptural backing. It’s so clearly stated in that verse, distribute a Bhagavatam, go back to Godhead, basically.
I mean, it doesn’t get much better than that. So, these opportunities are here, there, and everywhere. But unless we have this sense of urgency that we have to increase book distribution, then we don’t see them.
When the necessity is there, that’s when we discover these types of things. And so, we have to keep that pressure on ourselves. And to do that, we set these goals here, there, and everywhere.
And we have to keep calibrating them so everyone feels they’re fresh. Because after a while, then people go, they start getting Nirmagraha. Yeah, we did it that last year.
It has to be a fresh look every time. Otherwise, why are we, a movement’s got to be exciting. People have to feel like they’re pioneering, they’re going somewhere, they’re hitting new benchmarks.
Otherwise, we just become bureaucratic and bored, and start looking at how to fight with one another about stupid things. So, book distribution is a way to rise above the pettiness that is the default mode in Kali Yuga. Unless we have a higher cause to work for, like Bhajrapurnima, we’re just going to end up arguing about all kinds of non-essential matters.
Beautiful. In one sense, what the Bhagavatam says is that the Bhagavatam is actually going to give us the vision to overcome the effects of Kali. So, you can say distributing Bhagavatam also helps us to counter the effects of Kali in terms of causing dissension.
That’s a beautiful note to end on. I would love to have you again and talk more, but I respect your time. And maybe towards the end, I usually try to summarise in the podcast.
And if you’re okay, I’ll summarise in a few minutes and then you can add some concluding words if you like. Okay. So, today we discussed about, in many ways, Bhajrapurnima was the occasion, we discussed book distribution as the foundation or the engine, we could say, for community building and spreading Krishna consciousness both.
We started by talking about how book distribution was in the early days also a community activity. But then as the nature of the community changed, devotees moved from the temple to outside. Then we had to, in a sense, refashion book distribution as a family activity.
And that has opened doors for people, when people say whole family go door to door, people ready to open it. People are much more open to that. And then as that started growing, one of the most eye-opening things was the kids book distribution.
This five-year-old is something which is etched in my memory. So, it not only attracts people, it lowers their guard when they say kids are speaking about Krishna and wanting to take the book, but also forms the, develops communication skills, emotional intelligence, handling rejection, and a whole set of skills are developed in the kids. And that helps them also to safely transit from the, you could say, the almost somewhat insular world of Krishna consciousness to the mainstream world, which they will eventually encounter in colleges and in their later lives.
So, that was amazing. And then said that the main purpose of distribution is actually our own transformation. Because we have to, we have to say, we have to become comfortable outside our comfort zone.
As you said, book distribution means we do that. It’s like a topmost form of sadhana, in which we, it transforms us and books that are distributed in one’s secondary, they will happen. We just show up.
The more we show up, the more we will be able to distribute. I like the four laws also, which you stated. They are very, it was a comprehensive programme.
You start with the sadhana, then get the books, and then show up for distributing the books, and then organise. And the principle of organisation, which you mentioned is that if it facilitates the logistics, either of book distribution or of hearing, then that is what is desirable. Otherwise, it will become bureaucratic.
So, in one sense, you consider Bhadrapurnima as an example of organisation. The organisation is actually creating a fresh challenge and making Krishna consciousness exciting. Otherwise, it becomes boring and we start quarrelling over petty things.
And between you talked about how the culture of hearing, you heard from Prabhupada, that don’t, you should also read my books. The culture of hearing that start with what was possible for devotees, say twice a week or once a week, twice a week, now thrice a week. And now, virtually so many programmes are happening.
And so, hearing gives us, we talk about symbiosis between hearing on one side and sharing on the other side. So, when we do both together, sharing inspires us to hear more, hearing inspires us to share. And by doing book distribution, we may have that apprehension that okay, that is the language, or the vocabulary, or the concepts are okay, but there is a spiritual potency beyond it all.
And if we are confident, then that will attract people. And of course, it’s our responsibility to make an appealing presentation. And from book distribution to say heart transformation, community building, it’s our responsibility to build a bridge and specifically find out what are the gaps in the bridge and fill that.
So, in Silicon, it’s fascinating also that you said Indians can do Western outreach. They’ve been quite effective. Rather than the Indianness being a barrier, it can be like a badge of authenticity.
So, that can inspire people to open up. This is what you are, this is what you’ve been practising and that was fascinating also. And we talked about how there can be different habitats.
So, initial contact can be by anyone, but eventually the habitats can be different. And Saddleback Church, you talked about, but now if people are to come together, eventually then everybody has to have that ethos, that kind of understanding that this is not just a place for us to congregate and with our friends. But the priority is new people are coming and we need to welcome them.
And then you also talked about reflective hearing, how it inspires and engages the devotees, how you spontaneously develop that. And Silicon Valley also is a place where it’s, in one sense, you could say the ripest place because people are achieved everything what they dreamt of materially, but their life is not what they dreamt about. So, it also, I think that’s the world’s unparalleled programme where so many top companies, and you have created a channel from the Conscious Living Network to the direct Bhakti programme.
And in presenting in this way, we need the balance, the two knobs in the bathroom, too hot or too cold. So, we are faithful and resourceful work together. And Bhadrapurnima is, you could say, it’s Vaisheshika Prabhu’s gift to the ISKCON world, or other discovery from our tradition.
And we just need, in one sense, an excuse. And this is a perfect traditional basis for us to inspire each other to distribute books, especially the Bhagavatam. And it’s amazing 20,000 books have been distributed and we can smash records.
So, two points you said that we try to do the, we try to hit the numbers. But the point is, when we try to hit them, that gives us the realisation that it is their mercy, the Lord’s mercy that is doing it. And that increases our faith also.
So, it is a vibrant spiritual experience for us to see the current of Krishna Consciousness going through. Another point, we have to reach to new people that we vicariously experience the newness of Krishna Consciousness. Bhadrapurnima has the opportunity to do that.
So, thank you very much, Prabhu. Any concluding words you would like to share? Yes, that it sounds better when you say it. And whenever I’m around you or listening to you, I realise I’m in the presence of spiritual genius.
I so deeply appreciate the way you take language and utilise it to present Krishna Conscious principles in such accessible and interesting ways. And I’m so grateful that you’re on the planet doing what you’re doing. Prabhu, I admire your work.
I get so much from you. And I thank you very, very, very much for giving me time to talk to you. It’s always uplifting for me.
So, I’m humbled by your words. Sorry for that. It came straight from my heart.
So, I just had to tell you. Hare Krishna. I see your words as Prabhupada’s blessings and your blessings.
Then I can also get that energy to keep sharing Krishna Consciousness. I play with words, I tend to get caught in the head. But that zeal to share, I can feel it just through the digital medium by your association.
Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom and spending your time. I look forward to having you again sometime in future for discussing more. Thank you very much.
Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, keep up the great work. And always, always so eager to have your association. Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna. Thank you very much. God bless you.
Thank you very much.