Gopi Gita Appreciation part 4, The Monk’s Podcast 166 with Madhavananda Prabhu and Amarendra Prabhu

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This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Hare Krishna. I’m Madhavanthru, Amarindra Prabhu. Welcome.
Welcome back to the Monks podcast. This is becoming more famous as the Gopi Geetha podcast and not the Monks podcast now. You’re referring to it that way.
So thank you very much for joining. And Madhavanthru, would you like to lead with Mangalacharan? Yes. Yes.
In Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakur, he gives a concluding comment on the tenth canto of the Bhagavatam. Madhgavirapi Gopala Sri Kriyat Kripaya Jyoti It’s a prayer to Gopal, my dear Gopal. You’re famous as a cowherd boy.
You take care of the cows. So you please accept and maintain the cows in the form of my words. And you get the pleasure, please, of drinking the milk from those cows.
And you inspire other people to do the same. Sri Krishna Krishna Chaitanya Sasanatana Rupaka Gopala Raghunatha Brajabala Vipahima Dhancha Kopata Dubhishcha Kripa Sindhubhya Evacha Vatitanam Bhavanibhyo Vaishnavibhyo Namo Namaha Jai Sri Krishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nityananda Sri Vidvaita Gadadhai Sri Vashari Gauravakta Brinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Thank you, Guru. That’s beautiful.
So, as a quick recap, we’ve discussed, we started with the Gopi Gita. In the first session, we discussed about why to discuss the Gopi Gita and what cautions we need to have at that time. Then, in the next session, we started the first verse and we continued in the second verse.
In the second session, we continued with the first verse. Then, Sharad Das Shaye. That was the verse we discussed in our last session.
And so, this second verse was basically describing Krishna’s beauty and how that beauty has stolen Krishna’s heart and the Gopi’s heart and still they’re calling Krishna to come back. If you don’t come back, we are like, we will die. You’re killing us, basically.
So, should we go to the next verse or are there some points you want to discuss again from the previous verse? Personally, there was a few topics in this second verse I wanted to continue with and I had some question I wanted to pose to Amarendra Prabhu yourself. Yes, certainly. So, Amarendra Prabhu, in the last session, he cited three different expressions of thievery.
It’s from Jiva Goswami’s Vaishnav Toshani commentary that Krishna has. The first is that he doesn’t consider the fault in stealing from other people. The second expression of the thief is that he has knowledge where the people are keeping their treasures.
And the third expression of thievery is that he is able to overcome the greatest obstacles. So, that was a nice point and I was marking in the commentary that Jiva Goswami goes on and offers three expressions of those thievery. And the first one sounds a little confusing to me and I just wondered if Amarendra Prabhu wanted to comment on that.
His first aspect of the thievery is expressed in that the lake is pure. The lotus growing in the lake, therefore it’s pure. The lake is pure, it’s producing the lotus.
So, it has a pure birth, Sadhu Jata. And the qualities and form of the lotus are also pure and proper, Sat Sarasvaja. So, that’s not real clear to me how that relates to Krishna’s expression of being a thief, he doesn’t consider the great fault in taking the wealth of the righteous.
Any comments on that Amarendra Prabhu? Sure, Prabhuji. So, the words that the Gopis use are Sharad Udaasaya, Sadhu Jata Sat, Sarasvajodhara Sri Mushadrasha. So, Sharad refers to the autumn season and Uda as we know is water and Aasaya means the reservoir.
So, Sharad Udaasaya, in the water pond, let’s say, Vrindavan is filled with ponds, lakes, even rivers in the form of Manasi Ganga and Yamuna. In the water ponds of Vrindavan, the lakes of Vrindavan, the small ponds of Vrindavan, the rivers of Vrindavan, during the autumn season, which is flooded with pure water post-monsoon, Sadhu Jata. Now, before we get there, I would like to, you know, reflect upon this word Udaasaya, the water reservoir, the pond.
It’s very interesting that in the Venugeet, chapter 21, Shukadev Goswami starts off by describing the water ponds of Vrindavan. Ittham Sharad Swachha Jalam Padmakara Sugandhina. He says Swachha Jalam.
Again, before he gets to the air quality index of Vrindavan, talking about how pure the value is, he speaks about the water, the ponds. And I heard from my beloved spiritual master that in Shastra, there is a custom of mapping or relating water ponds to the minds of great souls. Why? Because they’re still.
They’re without ripples. They’re without tides. They’re without agitation.
And they give shelter to many living beings underneath in the form of fishes and small living beings in the water. Also, water is fragrant. It is free of contamination.
And it’s very cooling. And all these qualities relate to the mind of a Sadhu. Point number one, he is without agitation.
Point number two, like the river or the pond, he’s ready to give shelter to others. Point number three, he’s very cooling in the sense that the heat of lust and anger and greed and pride and envy and jealousy, when we associate with a great soul, that fire is extinguished. So the water of his compassion from his pond-like mind extinguishes the fire of the unearthed.
So it’s very cooling. It’s filled with lotus flowers, the mind of the Sadhu, in the sense that the lotus flower represents the limbs of bhakti. So he’s always performing shravanam, kirtanam, vishnu, smaranam, padasevanam, and they’re all fragrant.
He’s performing bhakti, not vidhi mark, but rag mark, out of affection. And it has a lot of makaranda, a lot of honey, which attracts the bumblebee-like mind of Krishna. Also, it is free from contamination.
There’s no material desire. There’s no mud, there’s no dirt, there’s no dust mixed in the water pond of the mind of a Sadhu. There’s no material desires.
And most importantly, whatever he gains out of his bhajan, he doesn’t ask a single drop for himself, just like a pond doesn’t drink a single drop of its own water. The mind of a Sadhu is so pure that he doesn’t drink a drop of all that he has gained out of his bhajan for his own benefit. So it’s very interesting that the Gopis start off by saying that the pond is a representative or a representation of saintly reservoir.
It’s a place of saintly behaviour. It’s a place of saintly qualities. And in that, the progeny, the offspring, the child, is the lotus.
So naturally, in such Sharad season, where the mind is very calm, the autumn season is very pleasing, and especially the water pond in the middle of the forest. Now that’s another interesting connection. Sadhus like to live in the middle of the forest.
So the pond is in the middle of the forest with maunam. It’s not talking a word to anyone. Maunam vidvana bhushanam.
Sanskrit says that, how do you recognise someone who’s scholarly? He’s always grave. He’s not blabbering too much. So vidvana bhushanam.
The ornament of a vidvan is silence, gravity. He has poise. He has the depth.
So the ponds of Brindavan are considered, in that equal, to be sadhus. And therefore, naturally, after Sharad udashraye, which is the family lineage, the lotus is described as sadhu jata. The lotus has appeared in the family of sadhus, in the pond.
Sadhu jata. And not just that, sometimes you see that someone is born in a wonderful family but doesn’t carry those qualities. There are so many examples of people born in saintly, brahminical, divine lineage, but they turn up to be Ravana and Kumbhakarna.
On the other hand, you could have someone born as the son of Hiranyakashyapu to become Brelhad Maharaj. But here, interestingly, the gopis are saying, who’s coming? The lotus. Sadhu jata sat.
The family is wonderful, the parenting is wonderful, the lineage is saintly, and the children are also lotus-like. You see, lotus is the sign of opulence and beauty. So there’s a glorification of Krishna that your eyes are so beautiful.
Certainly there is glorification that your eyes are so beautiful that they put the lotus to shame. But how have your eyes become beautiful? They don’t have the beauty in them. They have gotten beautiful because you have stolen from the lotus.
And the lotus is very saintly. The pond is very saintly. They don’t even do anything wrong to you.
They are just saints in the middle of the forest doing bhajan, and you out of nowhere, you’re so heartless, you’re coming and stealing the treasure of the lotus and adding pleasure to your own eyes. So it’s almost like the Chandrashakha Nyaya. To mention more glory of the moon or to hint to the moon, the indication to the branches of the tree are made.
So can you see the branch? Yes. Can I see the branch? Yes. So now look between the branch.
So it’s almost like the gopis are telling us or telling Krishna in this regard that if this is what you can do as your nature to those who are so nice, they are in Chandras, they are peaceful. The pond is peaceful. The lotus is peaceful.
They are collecting their beauty and how much more will you steal from those girls who are already agitated by the agitation of separation, the Kaam Agni, and we ourselves are coming to you. You have stolen everything away from us, but you’re heartless because when you steal it from the lotus, you at least accept the lotus. Your eyes are lotus.
You stole it from your eyes, but you kept the lotus with you, but you’re so heartless. You stole our heart, but it’s your fault in stealing from whomever, whenever, however, whichever, and you go about Swaraj independently doing whatever you want to. So it’s almost like a complaint that if this is what you can, so it’s like saying if the child at the age of 10 can memorise the whole Bhagavad Gita, imagine how much he can do when he’s 25 to say that if this is what he can do to lotus in the pond, in the middle of the night, in the middle of the forest, those who just mind their own business, they don’t even talk a word to anyone and you go around stealing their property to increase your beauty, you heartless son of Nanda Maharaj.
If that’s what you do to the lotus, how much more you will do to the gopis of Vrindavan? They don’t even come in front of you. You go to them and you steal and we are coming to you. We are not righteous.
If you can do that to the sadhus, if you can hurt, to a madhyam or a kanishka or someone who’s not a devotee. So if you can do this to the lotus, how much more can you do it to just girls of Vrindavan? So we are not righteous. They are righteous and lotus is always seen reverentially for worship and you go around stealing from their property.
So imagine how much more you could do to us. They live in their house well protected in the middle of the forest and you go and you do that from a distance and you come close to us. We leave our home.
We are so much more vulnerable and we are not even righteous. So how heartless is that? So I don’t know if I’m still able to put the point across. I’m sorry for if I’m beating around the bush, please forgive me.
It’s not uncommon in this section of the Bhagavatam in this chapter the gopis, they are saying that you are very magnanimous whoever is speaking this Gita and also that you are killing everyone. That’s your nature Krishna. So it makes sense to me.
It’s a nice analogy. Beautiful. Thank you.
I was just thinking I was also going over the Chaitanya Mata Manjusa commentary of Srinath Chakravarti. Interesting person. He wrote the first Gaudiya commentary on the Bhagavatam.
He’s a priest of Sivananda Sen. And he says in connection with these same points, he’s saying that the gopis in effect are saying that you’ve been killing us with your glance, stealing our life, meaning that if you don’t show up before us, we’re going to die because this glance takes away the beauty of the lotuses. It’s also been taking away our life.
We’re like land lotuses. So you’ve been killing us before so we’re asking you to become visible just like in homoeopathy. You give some the same poison that you’ve gotten, the same disease.
That’s the medicine. So your glance is the poison and it’s also the medicine that we want you to become visible before us. Srinath Chakravarti’s commenting like that.
I found it also interesting in this section how the gopis, someone may question how is it that they remain alive? And Sanatana Goswami later on in the 46th chapter of the 10th Canto, he says there’s three reasons why the gopis were able to continue living. Mayita prayasam priste. Krishna’s saying it’s because I’m the most cherished object of their love.
So Krishna himself is giving them life. And the second reason was pratyagamane sandeshar because I promised Ayesha. I said Ayesha when Krishna was leaving said I’m going to return.
And that promise as Chaitanya Charan Prabhu was noting previously in the litamata of Radharani says that this is a bolt on the door keeping my prana posture the animal of my life within the house because you promised you’re going to return. And madatmika is the third reason because they’re fully dedicated to me. And there’s also an interesting discussion my Guru Maharaj gives which I think is based on Visvanatha’s commentary how the gopis are still living although Krishna’s killing them.
And Krishna says that during the autumn season during the summer season when the sun is so intense then we’re hearing about these beautiful reservoirs of water and in those reservoirs they dry up and there’s turtles there just like some of the devotees we work with in Govardhan they recently dug up a big pool court to catch the rainwater so that they can transfer the land. And they were very delighted shortly after it filled up with water almost immediately they found a turtle living in the water there. And as the lakes dry up and how do those turtles stay alive they’re going to die there’s no water it’s become so hot the fire of separation is like a scorching heat of the summer season.
So in their pond their heart is like a pond like Sarasi and the water is completely dried up so their life Krishna says is like pranakarma it’s like this turtle in the mud is the hope that I’m going to return again pranakarma Rupa swami describes that that’s how the gopis they stay alive by burying themselves very deep in the mud of this hope that I’m going to return. It’s amazing. Oh God.
The turtle actually as a metaphor comes in many places it comes withdrawing the senses pulling but it is turtle as burying is quite I never heard of that metaphor Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also withdraws his it’s a it comes Kurma what is described in separation from Krishna but a turtle burying is I haven’t heard that in any other context it’s beautiful have you ever heard of turtle burying as such? No Prabhuji it’s just nectarean to hear it’s painful it’s painful for the gopis but it’s beautiful it’s a wonderful comparison let’s see if I can find something real quick maybe I can’t find it so quickly on my computer but we made a painting of that also of the turtles and I don’t have my book here with me to show you anyway it’s going to take me a minute to find it I can if you want I can still look it up and can show in a minute so the so the gopis they stay alive for Krishna’s sake and in one sense in the Gopi Geet this is a bigger question which I had in the Gopi Geet it’s mostly about the emotions of Krishna sorry the emotions of the gopis and it’s almost as if Krishna comes out as a bad guy over there if you enable me I’ll show this painting we made oh wonderful can you see it on the screen yes sir ok let’s see here I almost had it yeah I think it’s that one yeah can you see that ok oh and this is kind of a symbol this is patachitra painting but you can see the turtles representing the gopis in this dried up lake they’re moving deeply into the mud under the hot sun amazing yeah in Mathura meets Vrindavan we had almost all the paintings made special for the book there’s like 50 paintings or something in the book amazing so it’s not just it’s not just mud it’s mud under the water it’s gone into the river bed or something like that that’s and the lotus what’s the phrase my brain is not working so good it’s mud pankaja so Janma it’s that thing which pankaja so that mud the gopis may say this is very cloudy mud has this quality of uncertainty of darkness but it’s also cooling that’s the mud of the hope that Krishna may come back again and that’s the thing which is keeping the gopis alive and I’m also thinking as a thief is being compared here by the gopis you know how he’s expertly stealing from the the lotus but it’s just a personal reflection a thief in this world steals Lakshmi wealth but Krishna is stealing from the Lakshmi right Lakshmi Lakshmi that Lord who’s being served by millions and millions of Lakshmi that Lord is stealing from the source of all Lakshmi the gopis of Vrindavan amazing Padmalankar Padmalankar Lakshmi Devi has been described as the embodiment of auspiciousness as the embodiment of all good fortune and she is always compared to the lotus Padmalankar her decoration is that of lotus Padmalankar her ornaments are that of lotus Padmalankar her hands and her feet her palms and her feet are like lotus and Padmasana she sits in Padmasana on a Padma with a Padma in her hand Padma meaning lotus completely decked up with lotus and our Shastra describes that of all the consorts of the Lord the gopis headed by Radharani are the source from where innumerable Lakshmi’s manifest so it’s very interesting the thieves of this world they try to steal the perverted reflection of Lakshmi wealth not even the true Lakshmi the perverted reflection like Ravana it was Maya Sita it was not actual Sita the thieves are searching and stealing the perverted reflection of the true Lakshmi and Krishna is stealing from the source of all Lakshmi’s so think about the Chauragra Ganya Purusham Namami source of all theft yeah we could say at one level that for Lakshmi it is Krishna who is the greatest wealth isn’t it? we say that I don’t want anything else but what I want Lord is you so so that which even Lakshmi considers to be the greatest wealth her greatest wealth Krishna is taking that away from her and God He is taking that away from the Gopis and at the same time in once maybe probably later in another verse we will talk about how even in separation there is presence in fact there is intensified presence we discussed that briefly but at that point there is a feeling of complete bereavement emptiness so there is everything that I have everything that I live for is taken away so Krishna takes it away from them and in the Chetan Charita Amrit is it Chetan Mahaprabhu says to Srivasa Thakur that that even Lakshmi Devi has to beg from house to house still there will be no shortage in your house he says that when even after his son dies he continues performing the kirtan so he is completely dependent so that situation is not exactly the same Lakshmi begging from house to house but the Gopis are actually begging in one sense searching where is Krishna they are going from tree to tree forest to forest one one sentient being in the forest asking them so Krishna is in one sense reduced the supreme goddesses of fortune to a state of utter desolation but but I would I would like to see it like this that the Gopis are like gold and Krishna is throwing the gold into fire to make it molten Vishwanath uses that same example he raises the question he says that someone may ask how is it possible that Krishna is putting the Gopis into such distress if he really loves the Gopis then why did he leave Vrindavan why doesn’t he come back it may seem like he loves the residence of Mathura Dwarka more the Braj Gopikas and the answer is basically what you were just saying that just as a goldsmith shows the value of the gold by heating it so with this Vipralambha Agni with this fire separation Krishna is also melting the hearts of the Gopis and thereby glorifying them yapratiyatu sadhana Krishna says in the tenth canto that let your own let your own behaviour be your glory I think poetically this can poetically on the flip side on the other side of fire is water and poetically we could even say that almost like the Gopis are telling Krishna Krishna you are stealing the lotus of our hearts from the pond of love and throwing it into the ocean of sorrow with the salty water of the tears of separation so you’re stealing the lotus of our hearts from the pond of love and throwing it into the ocean of sorrow with the salty water of the tears of separation so it’s a it’s a double metaphor to convey their pain fire is one fire is one pain and then I was thinking I’ve just been reading Gopal Champu and there are several intriguing parallels with Ramlila that he brings about one of the things you mentioned is how there was Maya Sita who Ravan has stolen and then Jiyu Goswami also talks about how there were the Maya Gopis or Chhaya Gopis which appeared so the Chhaya Gopis were who are married to Abhimanyu and other men and the real Gopis were they were married to Krishna so there are many parallels like that in that but one parallel struck me I’m not sure that’s mentioned in Gopal Champu but what you there is in the Ramayan there is a tension between duty and love and in the here also for Krishna there’s a tension between duty and love so in the Ram is in the forest and Bharat comes to tell him that you know please come back it is for you to become the king as this one of the most enduring conversations in the Ramayan practise for me so Bharat says that you come back he says no my father had told that I had to be in the exile so he says no but he had told but now he had told because he wanted to please Kike and she’s telling come back he says no it was his word and I couldn’t do anything for him throughout my life at least now I’ll honour his word he says you cannot do it and if you feel your father’s word dishonoured I will stay in the forest and you go back to the kingdom so then finally he says that you know we cannot everybody has to everybody has to go through their own karma Ram says if we don’t if we try to interchange karma arbitrarily the whole universal order will be thrown into chaos so I’ll have to take my karma and this is your duty you go back and finally Bharat says that it is all no logic works for him he says I’m not going back he says I’m going to sit here in meditation till you agree to come back and then finally Ram says so so the Ramayan commentator explained that this is actually in once in the is a tension between duty and love so Lord Ram is in one now motivated by sense of duty to his father I had I had to honour his word but Bharat is motivated it he’s not it’s not duty it’s such he has already been given the kingdom he said my duty is to to rule the kingdom which has been given to me I didn’t seek it I got it but out of love for his elder brother says no you should take the kingdom so love goes beyond duty so finally Lord Ram says to Bharat you know you win you won and I am defeated since you came here to give me the kingdom I accept it and Bharat’s face blossomed like a lotus and he’s so delighted and then Lord Ram very sweetly turns around he says I accept the kingdom that you give to me and I entrust the kingdom to you for 14 years and now you take the kingdom and you rule on my kingdom rule on my behalf so then Bharat is disappointed that Lord Ram has outwitted me so he says but I want some token that I am ruling on your behalf and then he uses padukas so similarly in I was I was mentioning this point that it’s from the Gopi Gita perspective it almost appears as if like Krishna is the bad guy but in Gopal Champu Krishna’s plight in Krishna’s agony is also described when Krishna goes to Vrinda goes from Vrinda went to Mathura at that time Krishna at least Yugoslavia stated Krishna has full intention of coming back but then the Yadus they tell no now who will protect us from Kamsa and you are our son that is your you have fulfilled the prophecy of killing Kamsa therefore you have to stay with us and you have to protect us from the allies of Krishna so then Krishna feels torn and he has to stay there so in one sense for Krishna it’s duty which force duty will for Lord Ram duty keeps him in the forest but for Krishna duty keeps him away from the forest of Vrindavan duty keeps him in the city Lord Ram duty keeps him away from the city but at that time also there’s this tension between duty and love so and then so I think Jiva Swami says over there when Krishna left Vrindavan Krishna left Vrindavan he actually left himself in the hearts of the Gopis because Lord Ram gave a paduka there’s nothing physical physical memento he gave but he left himself in the hearts and the intense remembrance of the Gopis became much more and also he also says that that there are I forget the name there are two Gopas who look like Krishna and Balaram so they say how will the cow we will understand and the Lord Ram says but how will the cows understand how will they stay in separation from you so what they do is these two Gopas Krishna says they take out their upper garments and they give this these garments will have our smell and these two Gopas look like us so let them wear those garments and let them go to the cows so in that way Krishna in one sense while fulfilling the call of duty also tries to fulfil the need of love he cannot he is also torn so Krishna is we call him as a thief but it’s not that Krishna is the bad guy Krishna is also torn between duty and love so the Paduka in that sense is his he he sticks to duty but he does not neglect love so similarly Krishna also he sticks to his duty but he enters into the hearts of his devotees that’s how he also answers the call of love and he also for the cows uses outer garments how beautiful how beautiful can I add something if that is okay for you yes certainly I am I am reminded of the Chaitanya Charita Amrita since we spoke about I really caught one sentence where you said that even Krishna feels pain even Krishna is feeling the agony so in the Chaitanya Charita Amrita we find in the I believe in the 13th chapter of Madhya Lila the meeting of Radha and Krishna at Kurukshetra is described and long story but they are seeing each other after or meeting each other after 100 years of separation rather than Krishna at Kurukshetra and in the discussion Srimati Radharani is asking Krishna how is it that I was alive in your separation how is it that I didn’t die because wherever there is true love there cannot be separation and if there is separation that is not eternal and if there is separation in true love the person dies so there is separation and this is true love and I have not died in separation from you so how is it that I was alive and Krishna answers that in the words of Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami by saying Oh Radhika Oh Radharani I know you would have died in separation from me but I did something for you to protect you to protect your life and the body I used to worship the deity of Narayana everyday Krishna is saying I used to worship Narayana everyday and Narayana appeared before me being pleased by my worship and he asked me what do you want I said just keep Radhika alive Oh Narayana if you really want to give me anything Krishna is praying to Narayana if you really want to give me something please keep my Radharani alive don’t let her die so Narayana says that is for sure ask something for yourself Krishna says I don’t want anything if you really want to give me something give me a power by which I can run to Vrindavan every single day of my life so Krishna is telling Radharani Oh Radhika just to protect you save me Narayana I worship Narayana everyday and Tara Shakti by his blessings I could come every sunset to Vrindavan I ran from Dwaraka every evening to Vrindavan and then what did you do in Vrindavan Krishna asked Radhika so then Krishna said I performed fast dance with you every night and and when the sun was about to rise I used to run back to Dwaraka every night I came to Vrindavan Radharani for you and all night I was dancing and singing and playing with you and when the sun was about to rise I would run back to Dwaraka but then Radharani said how is it that I never recognised Krishna with tears said Oh Radharani you just considered that to be my spurti you considered that to be hallucination from your heart but trust me I was actually there every sunset I left all the Dwarkavasis and I ran to Vrindavan by the power of Narayan He blessed me with that and I used to come and play with you sing with you dance with you Oh Radhika do you remember do you remember that night when you saw me and then you felt that was just hallucination and you were convinced it’s a tamal tree actually you were wrong he was not a tamal tree he was me standing for you in the shape of a tamal tree I had come in person and Oh Radharani every night I was there with you every sunset I would run for you and every sunrise I would run away back to do my duties so the whole verse in Chaitanya Charita Amrit goes like this to save your life I prayed to Narayan by his blessings Narayan’s blessings I used to come every night and I performed pastimes with you and I ran back to Dwaraka Oh Radhika unfortunately you thought that was my spurti but actually I came and because I used to come that kept you alive amazing this beautiful Madan do you want to add something just digesting that was so nice very very important topic how it is that Krishna was meeting with the gopis everyday in Gopal Champu Krishna writes a letter to Radharani from Mathura and he says that everyday Radharani you’re having this dream that we’re together and you think it’s just a dream but you should know that there’s some fragrance on the sheets from my body that’s there it’s really actually happening that’s an amazing thing I think it’s Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakur he describes three different types of love in a very intense feeling and even if they see some spurti they don’t believe it no this is not actually true and therefore Krishna when he wrote that letter to Radharani he said no this is actually happening an amazing thing that I was also thinking that this spurti it also is there in Chaitanya Charitamruta isn’t it I think when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu tells Damodar Pandit to go from Puri to Mayapur back and he takes some prasad for the Mayapur people including Sachi Mata is it Damodar Pandit or I’m not sorry Jagadan Pandit Jagadan Pandit right right right so he says that when tell mother tell mother Sachi that when she makes her offerings and then she comes back and her offering has disappeared she thinks because of her old age I probably forgot to make the offering she goes and makes the offering again she says you did not forget to make the offering actually I personally came and took the offerings so I was honouring the offerings and that way I was with you so Jiva Goswami says a similar thing in Gopal Champu also again when Krishna writes this letter Krishna says I am coming and I am personally taking these things so she is having aspirati but that is the quality of that love that they don’t believe it their feelings are so intense they don’t believe it is actually happening that’s amazing in one sense the devotees if they are if we have a vision of Krishna you want to doubt it to the whole world I saw Krishna but they see Krishna and they think it’s not Krishna actually that’s a beautiful point we could really elaborate on that too that we are trying to just follow the Gopis and although we are following Vaidhi Bhakti still we should hide our Guru we should hide our Mala we should hide our Bhajan speaks like they don’t just go here and there speaking about it because we are aspiring for something very very high but there’s an interesting conversation Prabhupada had with some devotees in Bhubaneswar here in Orissa in 1977 when Prabhupada last came and somebody was telling him Prabhupada there’s some of your disciples and they say that they are in touch with some space aliens some of your disciples and they’re saying this thing and that thing we printed this in our Bindu magazine some years ago and Prabhupada became very disgusted and he said this is Sahajiya and he gave a few funny examples he said just like I had one barrister friend who went to Vrindavan and when he was in Vrindavan some boy asked him for a sweet so the lawyer gave him some sweet and then later he said he saw the same boy on the train and he realised that was Krishna and he’s telling Prabhupada that and another example he gave was Jagannath Puri he said that there was one fat woman wealthy woman and they brought her before Lord Jagannath they have a inner sanctum before Jagannath and she’s circumambulating Jagannath and as she’s circumambulating she was telling Prabhupada later that Jagannath was catching my cloth and Prabhupada said this lady she’s so fat why does Krishna want to catch her cloth and he said this is Sahajiyism so just like one devotee once told my Guru Maharaj he said Maharaj I was chanting Hare Krishna and I saw Lord Nrsimhadeva and Guru Maharaj leaned into him and kind of whispered he said don’t tell anyone so that’s our mood is we’re following the Gopis and the word Gopi the very word Gopi comes from the same word Guham or to hide something so the Gopis are hiding their feelings and we’re in that line we may be sadhiks we may be Vaidhi Bhaktas but still in this line we shouldn’t advertise our feelings and Sanatan Goswami Gopal Bhatt Goswami Hari Bhakti Vilas they explain that elaborately if you have some amazing vision and a dream or something don’t tell anyone maybe you tell your Guru that’s the only person and that’s a very wonderful thing it accomplishes a number of things just like if you have a pot in a small room and it’s full of water and you put it on a big fire then the pot starts boiling and it looks really dramatic the whole room becomes filled with steam but the same pot if you put a tight lid on it it doesn’t look very dramatic at all but actually it’s much much more powerful because if you keep the lid tightly on that pot some point it’s going to explode and that’s the nature of Sri Chaitanya Mukhod Girna Hare Krishna Iti Varnika Rupa Goswami says this is Mahaprabhu’s Bhajan that Jagat Prema he’s coming he’s giving this Prema the whole universe to this holy name but it’s Mukhod Girna it’s coming through his mouth just like a volcano that’s exploding so we should hide that thing and not advertise it if we advertise it it’s very bad for our disciplic succession it’s very bad for our preaching it’s very bad for our society but it’s also very bad for us as individuals we won’t get to keep the treasures that we might have accumulated and even it’s said that Gopi had Guru Mata that we should hide our Guru not meaning that we deny our Guru but we don’t advertise our intimate connection with him and that’s a little hard sometimes for devotees to understand this principle because for many of us our idea of preaching is that we advertise everything you know I was with my Gurudev and he told me this and here’s a photo of me and him and I remember he and I did this or we tell people and now on the street I’ve seen devotees I’m chanting one lakh a day of this Hare Krishna mantra it’s so nice you should do the same thing and sometimes devotees are thinking like that that preaching means advertising my bhajan but it’s not and that’s a very detrimental thing for us this is a whole subject actually in one sense that there is the personal relationship and the personal emotions and there is the preaching mission so in one sense it is our purpose is to inspire others to develop their relationship with Krishna but so subtle that instead of inspiring others to develop their relationship with Krishna we start advertising our relationship with Krishna and of course in one sense for people we are an example and our relationship with Krishna is also going to be an example for them but it’s a subtle thing that am I is what am I doing is it inspiring them to develop their relationship with Krishna or is it simply inspiring them to or making them become filled with how about my relationship with Krishna so the Prabhupada had that Prabhupada was asked this question that have you seen God and Prabhupada said what does it matter whether I have seen God or not I have given you the process by which you will be able to see God so it is more of what you don’t it’s not what I have realised and we debate about what I have realised but what you can realise so it’s a really important point it’s something I mean we’re I think we’re getting a little off from our main subject but just to touch on this it’s something that I’m very concerned about that devotees think this is a kind of preaching and sometimes even I’ve seen devotees publish things and they tell stories of some Muslim had a dream and the deity came to him and said you should get your daughter married to such and such person and I’m very reluctant to advertise that kind of thing because what the result is is that people will take it cheaply and they may start thinking that I can also do like this and that’s very detrimental for our preaching mission for our personal bhajan for our society Can I just go back to our topic a little bit? Yes definitely Vallabhacharya in his Sabodhanitika Vallabhacharya writes an interesting commentary and sometimes devotees they think oh we shouldn’t go to Vallabhacharya he’s in a different line and Mahaprabhu said some little disparaging things about him which actually just from a historical point of view that conversation with Mahaprabhu where he chastised Vallabhacharya they don’t accept that and there’s no historical pramana to support it of course we accept it because Krishna Das Kaviras Goswami says but I’m personally a little reluctant to wear it on my t-shirt when I go and deal with some of my friends in the line of Vallabhacharya and Sri Labhapta Siddhanta in one place he says that we should study Sabodhanitika and he and speaking about the second verse of this Gopi Gita he says that the word Sri Musha Sri Musha which Musha means something which it’s greater than and Sri means a beauty but greater than also means indicates it steals because it’s greater it takes away this thing indicates that Krishna is such a thief and has become a killer and that’s the nature of a thief a really good thief someone who really progresses in the pathway of being a thief they naturally become a killer and then the better the thief they are the better they are at killing and so Vallabhachar is saying that Krishna’s expertise in stealing is shown very similar to what Jiva Goswami is saying that he did this impossible act this is like grand theft this is greater than stealing from the bank because the beauty of the gopis is something that was concealed within Sadhu Jata it belonged to that lotus and at the same time it was inside of the lotus in the centre of the lotus and at the same time that lotus was surrounded by a moat just like you have a castle or something that’s surrounded by a moat it’s surrounded by that water so that’s an amazing thing that Krishna was able to steal and on top of all that the theft occurred during broad daylight in warm weather where everybody was out and about and everybody could see anything but still nobody could see this is the depth of Krishna’s stealing indicated by this word Sri Musa I’m good if everybody wants we can go on to the next the third verse unless Amaranda is being quiet maybe has some reflections on this points can I add a few yes just one minute if you don’t mind at Vallabhacharya I recently one devotee was very disturbed by that whole past time and I went through the whole past time and one thing struck me that it seems Lord Chaitanya’s focus is not at all on critiquing the commentary because Chaitanya Mahaprabhu doesn’t read the commentary at all and it is also not so much on critiquing Vallabhacharya although the words used seem to be quite strong it seems to be more on emphasising respect for Sridhar Swami and it’s more a principle that when we write a commentary we shouldn’t think that we are superseding or we are going above the previous Acharya so if we take out the personalities over there Vallabhacharya is it’s more like a philosophical teaching of respect for the previous Acharyas rather than a criticism of Vallabhacharya per se so that’s the sense I got when I read that past time because otherwise they have very cordial dealings earlier even they meet in North India and then eventually I think there have been reasons for some friction between the two traditions the Madanipura temple and other things but overall I don’t think this past time itself or the fallout of this past time caused a significant friction historically speaking that was a cause of any rupture between the two past between the two Sampradayas in that sense as you said the more important than getting into the historic city of the past time I think it’s the purpose of the past time of respecting the previous Acharyas that is what was my sense broadly speaking on that past time that’s true yeah yes Prabhuji so actually one very wonderful commentator by the name Narayan Bhakta Goswami he has commented on this verse on the word Kimvadaha which is the last word of the verse so one meaning of the word is is this not murder it’s a question it’s a rhetorical question it is murder so it’s like saying is this not murder you have been stabbing us repeatedly every single day with your glances now what else do you expect now you’re after all that stabbing when when someone comes and stabs us once twice thrice the natural question is why are you stabbing me do you want to kill me that’s the natural response so Krishna you who stabs us with your glances now what do you want is this not murder that’s a question but however Narayan Bhatta Goswami gives another meaning to the word he says according to the Sanskrit grammar the word can also break as which means even amidst the category of murder this is the most disgusting murder that anybody can think about one meaning is is this not murder but another meaning is that this is the most disgusting murders of all murders why some analysis has been given the analysis is if there is someone who’s let’s say a bad criminal you can give him life imprisonment but then even the judge thinks twice before giving him a death sentence right however bad the criminal maybe if let’s say he’s repentant then the the sentence is reduced but let’s say if he is is a complete as Sripad Madhavananda Prabhu calls badmash let’s say the person is a total badmash a gone case then the judge may say well lifelong imprisonment but the judge will think twice before even killing such a person so even bad criminals are thought about by the judge before they give a death sentence how much more for a saintly man a saintly man should never be killed is it not he should never be killed then how much for a saintly woman a woman should never be killed never and how much more for women in the plural sense women should never be killed never be attacked they should be protected so it’s a category of murder that Narayan Bhatta Goswami takes us through a spectrum he says a bad criminal may be killed but even he’s given a chance a saintly man is never to be killed a saintly woman in the singular sense singular case should never be killed she should be protected and respected and honoured and then what about women in the plural sense they should always be protected and respected and then how much more about the gopis how much more about the gopis who are the the the treasure or let’s say the crown on top of womanhood gopis ultimately they are the best example and what’s happening here the gopis in plural sense are being tortured on the banks of Yamuna who’s another gopi who’s another transcendental prakriti and all of this is happening on mother earth who’s another woman and all of this is happening in the forest of Brindadevi who’s another woman and they’re all saintly women they’re all gopis gopis should not be tortured and that too now on the banks of the Yamuna who’s another you know feminine body devotee and that too on mother earth that too in the forest of Brinda and all of this headed by Sri Radha who is Brindavaneshwari and it is such a wonderful place that the queen of all queens and the woman of all woman that is Indira Lakshmidevi herself she is coming to take shelter of this place and amidst all that which is you know predominated by devotional women and that too in the forest when they’re helpless and that too at nighttime when they’re helpless and that too they came lovingly living giving up everything that they possessed just for you Krishna and what you want to do is reject them so amidst all the murders this can this is the kutsita vada kimvada is kutsita vada this is the most disgusting murder scene and what are the gopis saying they’re threatening Krishna if we all die on mother earth on the banks of Yamuna in the forest of Brinda headed by Radha in the place taken shelter by Lakshmi then all that defame me and all that sin will come to you so please come out and save your own repetition protect yourself and it’s very interesting Krishna saying in the Gita that I will purify you of all your sins I will help you and here the gopis are threatening that Krishna of sin they’re saying we want you to come why not for us but we are thinking about your repetition we’re thinking about so that you don’t get the sin of killing us you don’t get the ill fame the defaming from everyone of killing the saintly women therefore come and also follow your own Bhagavad Gita Baba follow your own Bhagavad Gita the preacher should practise what he preaches the preacher is supposed to follow his own preaching so what have you said in the Gita Krishna that if you leave your hiding that is the home and come to meet me then what am I supposed to do give up my hiding and come to see you now what are you doing we have given up our hiding the home and come to see you and you given up our association to go in the hiding this is not Bhagavad Gita this is not Bhagavad Gita and also we want you to come out and help us why because we are like the lotus back to the original example we are like the lotus and what nourishes the lotus the sun and the moon and what are the sun and the moon your eyes so the lotus of our life opens and expands by the sun and the moon so we know there are two kinds of lotus there’s the day lotus and the night lotus the day lotus which is nourished by the sun and the night lotus which is nourished by the moon and Krishna your eyes are sun and moon and we are the lotus so come and nourish our life because when the sun sets and doesn’t rise the lotus is going to wither and the lotus is going to die so the lotus of our life is withering in separation and almost dying because of the absence of the sun and moon of your glance so is it not kim vada even the sun and the moon of this world don’t do that they set but they rise also but the sun and the moon of your eyes they have set but they don’t rise they’re not coming and giving darshan so kim vada is it this is this not the most disgusting example of murder so there was a small comment amazing it’s you know this lotus the gopis are saying krishna’s eyes are like lotus but at the same time that the gopis and their gopis are like lotus their hearts are like lotus and their that is that is not necessarily said in this verse itself but that is like for the metaphor of robbing and for these other metaphors that the devotees are like lotus saintly people are like lotus and gopis are top most devotees from that we are drawn the inference isn’t it so there’s two different metaphors that’s correct that’s correct on with respect to krishna’s thievery and and and stealing propensity then he can steal even from the lotus so at that time our hearts are like lotus but now the lotus of our heart needs the sun rays and the moon beams of your glance so by by denying us that you know that’s that’s not right and also thieves if they can ask Sripada Madhavananda Prabhu was saying if the if the if krishna can steal so much during the day imagine how much he can do at night daytime vraja prasidam navaneetha choram gopangananam jathukulo choram aneka janmarjita papachoram chauragra ganyam purusham namami sri radhika yai ritayasya choram navambu dasya malakanti choram padashritanam samastha choram chauragra ganyam purusham namami if he can steal the complexion of radhika in daylight if he can steal the complexion of the cloud daylight if he can steal the butter in the neighbour’s house daylight if he can steal the sins of his devotees during daylight imagine what this thief can do at night you know this is a glorification of krishna’s ability to take sins away from the lives of his devotees so the gopis are using the the metaphor there beautiful so in one sense in one metaphor the lotus is the robber in the other metaphor the lotus is the robber so the lotus is the krishna’s eyes they are robbing the hearts of the gopis so in the second metaphor gopis hearts are like lotus or gopis are like lotus so they are being robbed and the interesting thing is krishna is he’s saying samoham sarva bhuteshu i’m equal to everyone but there’s some difference here what’s the difference his eyes are stealing from the lotus but he gives position of those lotus in his eyes the eyes are always compared to the lotus so the point is i will steal from you but then i will also accept you as a metaphor krishna saying i will steal the nectar from the wall of the lotus but i will also accept the lotus as a comparison to my limbs so the gopis are saying if you can steal from the lotus but what did you do you stole from the lotus but you accepted the lotus in your eyes so you steal our heart no problem but accept us keep us with you but what you’re doing is you stole from the lotus and kept the lotus in your eyes but you’re stealing from us and leaving us rejecting us at least if you want to steal baba steal properly at least keep us with you steal completely oh god yeah it’s stolen our hearts you have called us to you we have come to you and now you are abandoning us i think later on this will this point about women will come in later was custody in nishi he talks about you know how women have come to meet you at night you’re a hero how can you abandon them that point will come in later words also yeah but as other you want to add something or as you said should be yeah i i was just really thank you very much amarander for sharing that comments about the meaning of kim vada from rain but that was strong that was very very beautiful and just to add something more to that um our commentary is also described that what what what an unprecedented murder that you’ve done and it’s even worse because the gopis are asoka dasika they’re unpaid maid servants and the gopis are they’re telling krishna you you looked at us just with one eye and you express this desire for this surata for a union with us to be with us and so because of that we became this asoka dasika we became your unpaid maid servants and it’s so bad for how are we unpaid maid servants first of all you never gave us anything for our services secondly we’re your maid servants but our parents never gave us to you in marriage and although we were never willing to marry you the gopis thinking in the sulkiness our parents still they should have given to us to you in charity that would have been pretty improper but that they didn’t do that so therefore we’re asoka dasika and this murder is so terrible it’s one thing if you murder someone if you murder a criminal that’s very bad if you murder an innocent person that’s even worse but what if you murder someone who’s just humbly serving you and so this what an unprecedented murder that you’ve done because we’re asoka dasika for three reasons first of all because you’ve never given us anything you’ve never paid us anything secondly if our parents would have given us to you then you could say yes they’re my maid servants but my parents never gave us to you thirdly even if we wanted to marry you and of course we don’t the gopis and the left-wing gopis are speaking like this uh then maybe you we could have had some gundarba style marriage where we exchanged some garlands or something and then you could have called us your dasis but you also never did that uh so we’re asoka dasika and this is the most extreme terrible murder you’re going to murder someone who’s humbly serving you and it’s not not just someone you’re paying to serve but you’re not even paying us asoka dasika so beautiful it’s in one sense uh and this is a big this is a big theme which we want to not want to go into see generally most uh one of the biggest most troubling questions for people is why do bad things happen to good people and in many ways uh it is you could say it is a question about not about god’s goodness and there is that famous book written by the jewish rabbi who said when god bad things happen to good people actually god doesn’t want those bad things to happen but god is not in control i think god is not in control god is all good but he’s all rabbi his name was dr harry krishna krishna easy name to remember so i didn’t wrap okay so now i read his book it’s quite a compassionate book but he said basically what he’s trying to do is he’s trying to get god off the hook that don’t give up don’t give up your faith because you are not being protected by god even a man he says yes god wants to protect you but he can’t so they try to show that how god is god is good but right now devil is more powerful eventually god will be more powerful and he will save you but in one sense if we see the bhagavatam is also incident after incident of bad things happening to good people it is a person he’s cursed he’s cursed and he has to die and like that we can think one incident after another and say another Dhruva has done nothing but he is so terribly insulted similarly we have Chitraketu he is he is cursed or they just laugh he’s just it’s not a laugh of derision it’s a laugh of appreciation or amazement he gets cursed but the point I was thinking is in the bhagavatam so the normal theological strategy is to try to separate god from the distress and say god is not causing it this distress is happening to you and god is god is different god will save you but in one sense as the bhagavatam moves deeper and deeper it is the source of suffering becomes more and more clearly the divinity itself like if we see Bali Maharaj he gives everything in charity he gives three steps in one sense the lord cheats and the lord arrests and when you speaking about this is the most terrible murder there is that verse where Bali Maharaj says that you know that nobody has punished anyone like the way I have been punished so the and in the heart of the bhagavatam it’s like not only are bad things happening to good people the gopis are greatest people but the bad things are directly done by god it is so instead of separating theologically god from the bad thing happening it’s like the bhagavatam as it’s progressing it is bringing a greater and greater almost union or direct causation between god and the bad thing happening to someone but I think it’s in the bhakti sutra somewhere it is said that when there is every relationship every reason for a relationship to break and it doesn’t break that is real love so in one sense the bhagavatam is through this this story is it’s demonstrating the purity of the love so at one level for the gopis it is at least with respect to Bali Maharaj you can say okay you didn’t honour your word although he could also argue that you know it is you who asked a deceptive promise you asked for three-step but you expanded yourself but at least okay you can for namesake you did something wrong that’s why I did something wrong that’s why I’m being punished but with the gopis it is not even for namesake they’ve done anything wrong this completely offered themselves to Krishna and then that very Krishna to whom they have offered he is causing them such suffering so of course from a devotional rasik perspective we understand that they are experiencing the highest ecstasy in separation from Krishna but that when the suffering comes upon someone that to see I think there’s a lecture Prabhupada where Prabhupada says that you know a devotee says Krishna has come as this disease or Krishna has come as this pain so it’s a very exalted realising thing like that but even when so the Bhagavatam is through this like Krishna causing the suffering of the gopis which it is actually demonstrating the exaltedness of the love of the gopis that even when Krishna the very object of love causes a suffering and that’s that’s the you could say the greatest reason to just stop loving that object but the gopis don’t do that and in that way the exalted love becomes manifested Wow could I could I offer some comments or reflection on that Prabhuji at least please jump in at this point somebody listening to all this this Gopi Geet materialings and they may be thinking wow this is really sweet and I can do like that also and I’ll chastise Krishna and Krishna is being a rascal Krishna you’re trying to kill me and this and this but we should be very very careful Krishna he says in the Bhagavatam Paroksha Vada Rishaya Paroksha Mamachapriyam that I like this Paroksha Vada Paroksha Vada means one thing is said but another thing is meant and so although it appears that the gopis are saying they’re abusing Krishna in the harshest way actually their words are the most wonderful words of love and this is an expression of their love and we should understand that just like sometimes Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati says in one place that if we see the guru chastising a disciple we may say yeah that guy is such a rascal I saw in public he chastised him but he said don’t do that because you don’t know his chastisement might have been a reflection of his love so sometimes we very cheaply in our neophyte position we try to imitate the gopis and we try to criticise Krishna and it’s a very very dangerous thing I’ve been reading some articles recently from Bhaktivinoda Thakur and I find it very very interesting some of the things not just the things he’s saying but his mood and I think it’s something a lot of devotees are not aware of and it’s very much also in line with this point a theme that I found many times in these articles of Bhaktivinoda Thakur which is a theme that we don’t think about a lot of times because we’re followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta the singer guru who didn’t compromise and was very cutting and very heavy but Bhaktivinoda Thakur in other articles he speaks in a nice way even about Ramakrishna who is someone we don’t appreciate very much he speaks here in Jagannath Puri Radharaman Charan Das Babaji who started this Nitya Gaur Bhajan Nitya Gaur Radhe Shyam mantra which Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was very unhappy with Bhaktivinoda Thakur was friendly with him and Bhaktivinoda Thakur said when he wrote about Ramakrishna Paramahamsa he said we don’t agree with him but we should accept that he’s a sadhu and I find it very very interesting in light of this thing too that with the Gopi Gita that we may say oh the Gopis are chastising Krishna so I can also do like that or Prabhupada chastised certain people so I can also do like that but we have to be very careful not to imitate and I’m not advocating that someone speak like in this way or in that way that’s an individual thing according to what Guru and Krishna inspire you and instruct you to do but it’s not that we should just blindly imitate the Gopis and their chastisement of Krishna or even chastisement of other devotees because Prabhupada chastised someone or because Srila Bhaktisiddhanta chastised someone therefore we should all chastise but as we were mentioning and discussing before we started the podcast today Srila Prabhupada said a lot of favourable things about Islam and about the Koran and he speaks about the Koran as a bona fide Shastra so devotees sometimes they may chastise the members of Islam but Prabhupada didn’t see fit to do that so my point just being that we should be careful not to imitate the Gopis not to imitate our Guru Janas and run around and chastising everyone it’s a lesson I see from this verse yeah it’s quite a comprehensive analysis here in one sense the a close level of love a close relationship gives liberties which outsiders cannot take and in fact outsiders they will it will be disrespectful if they do that so the Gopis Krishna carries them on his shoulders and their legs touch Krishna’s body we can’t imitate that and let our feet touch touch anything sacred so yeah that’s true reading Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s articles I’m so impressed by he Bhaktivinoda says a lot of very far out things and he’s he’s produced a lot of amazing books that would be a whole podcast by itself to discuss and I don’t want to go there right now but one of the articles that he wrote in Sajjanatosha was about the the parents’ days and the dates of the six Goswamis their parents and when they did certain things when they disappeared and he presented a whole article about it and then at the end of the article he said this is the best that we’ve been able to figure out historically if somebody else can correct us please write to us and we’ll print your your points wow he’s not presenting himself as an absolute authority that’s a very fascinating thing to me about Bhaktivinoda Thakur and he’s very respectful of all the different sadhus and of course he was presenting this side about Hidharivamsa by the way is it true that the fathers of Hidharivamsa do they follow Ekadashi or not sometimes they follow Ekadashi they follow Ekadashi till a certain point in the sense that so their point is so their point is if on the day of Ekadashi I get Prasad of Radharani Radha and Krishna am I going to say that well today is Ekadashi so I’m not going to accept the remnants of Radha Krishna or am I going to understand that the fruit of all my Ekadashi Vrat was to come to a point of accepting the remnants of Radharani Krishna that’s their point it’s similar here in Jagannath Puri also there’s many Vaishnavas who they fast from grains on Ekadashi but if Jagannath Mahaprasad comes to them then they’ll accept that and of course in the book which we which is accredited to Jagannath Pandita Pramavivarta which is discovered by Bhaktivinoda Thakur there’s a long discussion about how Gaudi won’t even accept they’ll take a Tulsi leaf or something but they won’t accept Jagannath Mahaprasad on the day of Ekadashi but some Vaishnavas here do and what’s interesting to me especially is Radharaman chanting Babaji who Srila Bhaktivedanta used to put his fingers in his ears when he would hear the people chanting that mantra he really didn’t like it but Bhaktivinoda was friendly with him and for devotees I find that kind of a revelation I’m not trying to say speak against my part of Gurudeva Srila Bhaktivedanta Sarasvati Hari Krishna but my point is this that there’s different perspectives it’s not that Bhaktivinoda Thakur is wrong it’s not that we should reject Bhaktivinoda Thakur because Srila Bhaktivedanta had another mood Bhaktivinoda Thakur was very respectful about Hidharivamsa he presented this history according to the Gaudiya side and thank you for explaining a very fascinating topic he presented it from the Gaudiya side but then he said we shouldn’t criticise him he’s a sadhu and he had the same mood toward Radharaman chanting us Babaji and other Vaisnavas too and even which is named I was mentioning that this Ram Krishna Paramahamsa Bhaktivinoda Thakur says he’s a sadhu so we give respect we don’t agree with him about many things but he’s a sadhu amazing about historical methodology also bro it seems Bhaktivinoda Thakur what he wrote in Krishna Samhita about the separating the transcendental from the you could say empirical or historical and that seems not just he did it in a sustained way in that book but it seems that that was his approach in other issues also and if you see that way even when he established the authenticity of the birthplace of Lord Chaitanya Yogapeeth it was his personal conviction came from his vision but he didn’t expect others to accept his vision he provided them empirical evidence architectural evidence and various archaeological and other kind of evidences so he does seem to give due deference to other pramanas also and so beautiful so the gopis are burning in the fire of separation they are burning in the fire of separation but in that burning they are expressing the highest truths of divine transcendental love I would like to show a wonderful insight into Krishna’s loving heart because we are speaking about how Krishna is a thief and he is a murderer as Sri Padmapada Vananda Prabhu was saying that side of Krishna but then Krishna also has you know this sweetheart actually he is the sweetheart so here’s a very wonderful verse that I was reminded of Sri Padmapada Vananda Prabhu was making couple of points he mentioned point number one about how Krishna was not the bad guy you know although the gophies are speaking Krishna has a very loving heart that’s that’s point number one and then also he mentioned about Vivekashunya brain quoting from Srila Jiva Goswami how there are different levels of separation felt by the Vrajavasis so this is such a wonderful wonderful words from the Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna is telling Uddhava to go to Brindavan and I would like to if if if I have your permission Chaitanacharan Prabhu maybe spend a minute or two explaining this verse it gives a very very beautiful insight to how Krishna thinks even when he makes a point even when he is speaking something how sweetly Krishna speaking so I will recite the verse Gaccha Uddhava Vraja Saumya Pitror Nav Preetim Avaha Gopina Madhvi Yogadhim Matsandesha Ervimo Chaya so we will see the general meaning of this verse and then we will see the inner hidden nectar so Gaccha means go Uddhava O Uddhava go so Uddhava’s question would be where Vraja go to Vraja and then there is a word Saumya Saumya means O handsome one or O tender hearted one O beautiful one O handsome one right so Krishna is calling Uddhava handsome and soft hearted here and he tells him go to Vrindavan so it is very interesting when we make a point we say Uddhava you should go to Vrindavan right that would be the order of our discussion but that’s not how Krishna is saying even with before he says Uddhava Krishna says Gaccha Gaccha and it’s not Gaccha too so in Sanskrit you can have different ways to say it you can you can say Gaccha too so which means when you use respect you say oh please go right but Gaccha is not that kind of an address Gaccha means go it’s like telling an equal go go it’s not please go you know it’ll be nice if you go you may want to go as they say in America right nothing of that so it’s like go who Uddhava go so Gaccha Uddhava doesn’t even know go where go to Brindavan Uddhava run and then he says handsome one we’ll come to that in a bit then Uddhava is asking Krishna you know you’re telling me to go to Brindavan what am I supposed to do there Krishna says to my parents parents right and the word used is no not my parents our parents very interesting our parents what to do there Pritim love Avaha give give them love you you you take my love to them so some questions could be asked here why is the word Pitro used with respect to know our parents actually Nanda and Yashoda are not Uddhava’s parents they are Krishna’s parents why is Krishna telling Uddhava our parents which means point number one when you give them my loving message don’t think that they are my parents speak to them as if they are your parents also just like you would speak to your parents you speak to my parents or another meaning is even if you don’t consider them to be your parents my parents are so wonderful they will consider you as their child just like they consider me with affection they will consider you as affection so even if you don’t consider them to be your parents they will treat you as their child and also the word now our parents in the plural sense is used out of respect because Krishna has not seen Nanda and Yashoda in a long time so go Uddhav go to Vraja oh handsome Uddhav go to Vraja and do what carry my love to our parents carry it to our parents okay so he speaks about the parents here no mention of the friends no mention of the cows then he goes to the Gopis and what is he saying Gopinam in the plural sense to the Gopis who are they they are burning in the distress from my separation mud what has come here mud means me Gopinam they are feeling separation from me plural sense Gopis mud and then what does he say Vimochaya relieve them but not just relieve them Mochaya means relieve Vimochaya means relieve them of the pain and give them happiness both Vishesh emotion and how do you do that mud now Krishna has already said mud Gopinam Gopis are mine and the separation is from me therefore what can you do Uddhav you can do nothing except carry my message mud so the word mud has come twice the Gopis are mine Krishna doesn’t use the word mine for parents he says parents are our our parents Uddhav speak to parents as if they are our parents but Gopis mud they are separated from me and therefore mud only my message can help them but interestingly the word is in the plural sense which means Krishna is giving only one letter so why he’s saying plural oh Uddhav you just read my message you don’t use your intelligence for the parents he says carry my affection and love them but as far as Gopis are concerned you can do anything it’s only my message which is going to work and I give you one letter you read it in front of them if it doesn’t work read it again if it doesn’t work read it again if it doesn’t work read it again if still doesn’t work read it again so much the plural sense has been used gotcha go Uddhav to Vrindavan oh handsome one go and to our parents speak to them as if they’re your parents or even if you don’t speak to them as if they’re your parents they will still treat you like their son to our parents carry my love or use your intelligence your son your disciple of Brihaspati you know how to articulate it you affectionately speak but as far as Gopis are concerned who are in separation from me only my messages by repeated reading of my messages don’t add your ifs and buts there Uddhav so now it’s interesting Krishna is giving message to them and telling about parents and telling about Gopis what about friends what about the trees and this is where Sripada Madhavananda Prabhu’s point of Viveka Shunya Prem comes in the trees of Vrindavan they don’t even know that Krishna has left Sheela Rupa Goswami is saying they love Krishna Viveka Shunya without any power of discrimination Krishna has gone to Mathura but the tree in Kumudwan is thinking Krishna is in Talwan because he has not come to Kumudwan today and the trees in Talwan are thinking Krishna is in Madhavan because he has not come to Talwan today and the trees in Madhavan are thinking Krishna is Vandiravan and the trees in Vandiravan are thinking Krishna is in Lohavan and the trees in Lohavan are thinking Krishna is in Vrindavan and the trees in Vrindavan are thinking Krishna is in Radhakun everyone is thinking today he’s in another forest maybe tomorrow he will come so therefore they don’t even feel the separation because they don’t know Krishna has left so Krishna is telling Uddhav don’t go and tell the trees my message because they don’t think I have left and as far as my friends are concerned they have hallucinated so much that they are thinking that actually they’re playing with me but they’re actually playing with my hallucination and they’re happy so don’t go and read the message to them and break their hallucination and give them distress they are happy my friends are happy they are so much in separation that they are hallucinating and that hallucination of my presence they think is me so they’re happy and they’re playing with that hallucination so don’t go and read my message and break that but as far as the parents are concerned and as far as the Gopis are concerned they don’t want to do anything with the hallucination they actually want Krishna so just go and speak to them and between the two go and use your intelligence in speaking to my parents but that’s going to fail when you speak to the Gopis when someone has a hat and they have to look up on the height of a building what happens is that when they put the hat on and they try to look up on how tall the building is the hat will fall to the back so Uddhav you have the hat of scholarship but when you look up at the height of the Gopis love the hat of your scholarship will fall so your scholarship will fail there it will fail there so don’t speak your logic to the Gopis just speak my words so then Uddhav is still thinking but I don’t know whom to go and give my message to who’s that person whom I’m going to speak and that answer is given in the Brahma Gita in Canto 10 chapter 47 text 20 Uddhav sees Srimati Radharani speak to the Bumblebee and what is she singing now here’s the word it’s almost like Sowmya is the only word that Uddhav didn’t understand why Krishna would use it but Krishna had encrypted his message you have to go and give my message to that Gopi who has the key to the encrypted message so Krishna gave the encrypted passcode as Sowmya and Srimati Radhika uses the same word Sowmya here so Uddhava is observing he doesn’t know when he comes to Brindavan whom to give the message to and he sees Srimati Radharani speak to the Bumblebee and use the word Sowmya and something clicks there wait a minute that’s the only word that I didn’t understand from Krishna’s message even my Gurudev Braspati doesn’t understand Krishna’s message that’s the only thing that I didn’t learn in Braspati school of higher education so I had to come to Brindavan Brindavan Institute of Higher Education I didn’t learn it with Braspati so that higher education I’ll get in Brindavan so Uddhava is thinking this Sowmya doesn’t make sense to me but when Radharani said Sowmya he understood oh oh oh oh Krishna encrypted the whole message with the password the passcode Sowmya and Radharani has the key to it Sowmya so I am supposed to give my message or read Krishna’s letter to this Gopi so the point is this whole discussion the parallel between these two verses shows the heart of Krishna how he is equal to Uddhava sending him to Vraja calling him beautiful but that’s also a hidden encrypted message passcode how he’s caring about his parents how he’s caring about the Gopis and possessive about them and is ready to use the word mud twice now no good poet will use the same word twice in two consecutive lines it’s it’s the fault of redundancy reputation is considered to be a fault of a bad poet but if Krishna is using it it is to show his possessiveness of the Gopis so how can Krishna who loves the Gopis so much how can he be a thief how can he be a badmash how can he be a bad man how can he be a murderer when he loves his Gopis so much so I am showing all this to present from as a lawyer from Krishna side that Krishna is not as bad as the Gopis are portraying him to me he is only the the the sweetest heart that anyone can ever imagine so sorry for blabbering on and on for I think more than 20 minutes now it’s beautiful so Madanthu what should we do you said midnight for you it’s past midnight now so I think we should hear the conclusion of everything a review from the lotus mouth of the monk for his podcast you want to add some word through it when I start to summarise in this order Madanthu anything you want to say before that no I’m good I’m really happy that that was wonderful from Amaranda Prabhu thank you so much really appreciated that I am I my kind of conclusion I just offered before and I can repeat it for a moment again that that we should be very careful not to try to imitate the Gopis and try to chastise Krishna and imagine ourself as being so elevated in the same way that we shouldn’t imitate Gurudev and start trying to chastise other people and we see them chastising them and beautiful examples had Hari Vamsa even though we’ve heard that another example again is the the Vallabha Sampradaya that is many many harsh things the Gaudis have to say I’m very reluctant to go there and speak that thing I have very good friends Godbrothers who come from that line and they have a very different understanding and it’s okay in one sense you can say both things are true because Bhaktivinoda Thakur says something and when Chaitanya Chaitanya Amrita says something we can accept it from them I’m not going to argue with them as Amarendra Prabhu said he’s not going to argue with Bhaktivinoda Thakur but at the same time Bhaktivinoda himself says that in some of his articles that I’ve said this but maybe somebody else has some other evidence maybe someone can correct that it’s not he’s not presenting all those historical things necessarily as being absolute and I think it would be a mistake for us to also start chastising Christian like the Gopis did or chastising other people in the same way Prabhupada did sometimes. Thank you. That’s a very important point.
Can I add something, Prabhuji, in line to that? Yeah. I’m reminded of that pastime where Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Acharya get into a transcendental argument. And it’s interesting that Srila Vrindavan Das Thakur at that section of the Chaitanya Bhagavad-Gita, he says, anyone who takes sides with Nitai against Advaita or Advaita against Nitai will be doomed.
So taking sides with the Gopis against Krishna and criticising him or taking sides with Krishna and saying that the Gopis are being unreasonable, you know, it’s both the path for our defamation. Not Krishna’s defamation. It’s shallow.
Right. Shallow. Right.
Right. And also yesterday being Sharad Purnima was the disappearance day of Srila Bhakti Pragyan Keshav Maharaj, who was the sannyas guru of Srila Prabhupada. And something very interesting from his life that Prabhupada Saraswati Thakur used to respectfully deal with all his disciples.
He was very respectful, very kind, very gentle to all his disciples. But to Srila Bhakti Pragyan Keshav Maharaj, who was Vinod Bihari Brahmachari, he used to call him a fool. He used to call him a fool.
Now externally, it may seem that, oh, Srila Prabhupada Saraswati Thakur is chastising his disciple. But it’s very interesting. It’s out of affection.
He used to call Vinod Bihari as Brahmachari and he used to say that you joined me when you were 17. And all the money that you’re getting, you’re giving it to me. You must be a fool.
At your age, you should be outside making money in the outside world and keeping all that money for yourself. What a fool that you’re giving all that to Gurudev. So that’s actually the highest compliment.
It’s higher than just saying, oh, you’re doing good. Like Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj used to say that guru can take two roles. He can teach and he can cheat also.
He can cheat also. So sometimes the guru may give shabashi on the back. Wonderful.
Very nice. And we may think that to be the only part of his mercy. But sometimes he may chastise heavily.
That’s when guru is actually giving his mercy. That’s when he’s actually giving his mercy. He’s giving kripa to his disciple.
So Srila Bhakti Pragyan Keshav Maharaj used to be called a fool by his gurudev, Srila Prabhupada Saraswati Thakur. And that was his expression of affection in a sarcastic way to say that certainly a person must be foolish to join me at 17 and not make money all his life and give all that money to me. How can you know you’re being selfless, you’re being surrendered and only a fool will do that.
That’s actually glorious. And in return, Srila Bhakti Pragyan Keshav Maharaj used to tell Prabhupada Saraswati Thakur that, yes, I am certainly a fool and you are a ship who has come in this world to carry fools around across the ocean of birth and death. Because the ship has nothing to do with the ocean.
But the ship just feels compassion to see the drowning people in the ocean of suffering. So you are the ship, oh gurudev, who is coming to carry us as fools who are drowning in this ocean across. So in that way, if you see that also seems slanderous, how can a disciple speak to guru like that? You are a ship carrying fools around.
But in their expression, that was the highest intimacy of mutual glorification and mutual love. So the Gopis speaking like this and Krishna behaving like this is not to be seen from a materialistic perspective and take sides. But this is the explosion or the expression of greatest affection for each other.
Just was reminded of this from Sri Padmadavananda Prabhu’s discussion. Beautiful. Thank you.
So, I’ll try to summarise and if you want to add something, you can add in the end again. Today we can say broadly we had two divisions. One was speaking from the Gopis perspective and the second was Krishna’s perspective.
So initially we continue the metaphor of the stealing. So what is being stolen? So Krishna is actually, if Krishna can steal even from a lotus, which is compared to saintly person, a family of lotus, like a family of saintly people, then how much are the Gopis more vulnerable to be robbed by him? And then the thing, that theme of the Gopis being robbed and how that’s a terrible robbery, terrible form of robbery. We discussed that at multiple levels, how in the Gopis are, normally if a thief robs, it’s one thing to punish a criminal, it’s another thing to punish a saintly person, it’s another thing to punish a topmost saintly person, it’s another thing to punish not just one but many Gopis.
Or from the other perspective, you can punish a wrongdoer, but to punish an innocent person is bad. But to punish a person who is serving is even worse. And here, it’s like a person who is a criminal, who is a robber, eventually that person will, in the process of robbing, will go and kill also.
So Krishna is, in that sense, killing. So in Narayana Bhatta Goswami, it is the most reprehensible form of killing. And there’s a beautiful picture which you showed about how the Gopis, how did they stay alive? If Krishna is killing them, then how are they staying alive? So Narayana Goswami says that it is because for his sake, because Krishna is their life, and in that sense, Krishna was, they stayed alive for Krishna, they stayed alive for Krishna’s word and because they are completely dedicated to Krishna.
But how were they able to stay alive? Because it was that they became like turtles when the heat becomes very high, goes underground in the mud, buries itself and survives. So like that, the Gopis, when they are affected by the separation from Krishna, they bury themselves in his remembrance and that’s how they are able to survive. And then, so this is, all this might make Krishna seem very heartless, that Krishna is subjecting the Gopis to such suffering.
And there is that metaphor is there, Krishna is the greatest of thieves, he can be the sneakiest of thieves, he can steal from everything. So we had Lotus, one side of the Lotus as the robber, Krishna’s glance is stealing the Gopis’ lives and then we also have the Lotus as the robber, the Gopis are like the lotuses who are being robbed over there. So then we moved from that perspective to actually how Krishna is not a bad guy, Krishna is reciprocating in his own way, extraordinarily.
So Krishna’s heart is also torn between duty and love. Duty keeps him in Mathura, whereas love wants him to come back to Vrindavan, just like in Lord Ram’s case, it was similar but opposite, duty kept him in the forest. Krishna, there are 3-4 different perspectives that, so Krishna, when they meet in Kurukshetra, Krishna tells Radharani that every evening, how are you able to stay alive? Because I would come back.
First of all, I prayed to Lord Narayan and I prayed so fervently that he became pleased and he maintained your life and then he asked for benediction from me, so I said the benediction I want is let me run at high speed to Vrindavan. So every night I came and you thought it was just my spurti, but actually it was I really there with you and I would go back, every morning rush back and that’s how you maintain your life. And then you talked about various levels of, is it levels or various forms of love we can say.
So with respect to the cows, they don’t feel separation, Vivek, because Prem is Vivek Shunya. When Krishna’s spurti comes, they think it’s reality, but with Utkanta Pradhan, the Gopis, they feel the most separation because even when Krishna comes, they think it’s a spurti. But Krishna does come and just like Lord Chaitanya would go and take the offerings from Mother Vishwamitra, from Vishwamitra, so even Lord Krishna says that you think it is just my chubby, that you had a dream about me, but actually it is not a dream, it is reality.
The garments and the clothes have my fragrance. So in that sense, I was really there, that is Krishna’s loving heart, Krishna deeply cares for the Gopis and wants to be back. And so you talked about Krishna writing letters to Radha, writing letters to Yashoda, that you cooked squid rice and I know that it was there, you may think it is chubby, but it is actually there.
So then we discussed about this theme of, which is quite an important theme, that the Gopis at their level, they are seeing Krishna, but they’re thinking that it’s not Krishna. They think it’s just a hallucination kind of thing. Now, we may have some vision and we want to claim that it is Krishna who is there, but we are seeing Krishna, but our devotion to Krishna is a very private affair.
It is Gopayat Gurumatmana, we shouldn’t share it with others, at least not publicise it, share it maybe with our Guru only and Prabhupada didn’t approve when some lady said that Jagannath was trying to take her cloth. So that kind of, we have to keep our devotion private, our Guru, that means our devotion is for Krishna to relish and it’s like that pot metaphor, the pot with boiling water can seem dramatic, but the pot with water in it, pot put on fire and it’s steam coming out to everyone, that’s dramatic. But the pot which is covered, it is becoming more and more powerful.
So like that, for all of us, it is that we keep our devotion private, it becomes much much more powerful for us actually. And then he went on to discuss about disrespecting others. So the point was that when Krishna, in one sense, is Krishna causing the suffering to the Gopis? It is, he is manifesting as Purusha to give them relief, but at the same time the Bhagavatam depicts how it is bad things can happen to good people, but it’s far more worse when God is making the bad thing happen directly.
But that pastime is demonstrating the Gopis’ exalted love, as told in Ujjwal Nilamani that there is every reason to break that love, but the love doesn’t break. So that is the point of this pastime. And Krishna also, the Gopis are saying, Krishna, you’re not reciprocating with us.
We left our home, our hiding place to come to you, but you have gone to hiding. So Krishna seems to be not reciprocating, but that is like fire purifying gold, so that gold becomes blazing more and more. So when the Gopis seem to say that Krishna is like a thief or even the commentators, they similarly may say something like, Krishna, we have to be very, very careful about those kind of statements.
We cannot take it cheaply and we cannot chastise Krishna or we cannot imitate Acharyas like Prabhupada and criticise other Vaishnavas, because we don’t know the dynamics of the relationship. And we can discuss the examples from Vrindavan about how there are other Vaishnavas from other Sampradayas who need to be very carefully respected and different Acharyas have different positions on those issues. And then towards the end, you discuss the beautiful words of how Krishna is so concerned about the Vrajavasis in separation that when he tells Uddhava to go, he says, you go and Gaccha, it is his eagerness that he goes so much that he is telling, you go and you tell about, you reassure my parents, who will just be like your parents or our parents, who will treat them like your son only.
But then for the Gopis, you give my message and those words, Madh Sandesha, that Sandesha giving it again and again, there is so much separation that those words will convince And again, the point is the Gopas are in ecstasy, in hallucination, so they don’t realise I’m separated and I’m away from them and the cows and the trees also don’t because they are Vivek, Krishna, but the Gopis need to be pacified. So Krishna’s love comes out here also in the sense of how the Gopis are, he wants to pacify them. He’s very concerned about them.
So the love is, it is a very inconceivable lofty level of love where within that affection, the Gopis are chastising Krishna and Krishna also seems to be doing something which are apparently for chastising, worth chastising. But there’s a very transcendental level at which love is being reciprocated. So thank you very much.
Anything you want to add quickly toward the end? It was brilliant, the summary was so brilliant. I feel like Chitra Ketu Maharaj now, like laughing at Lord Shiva, like you’re in a position of Lord Shiva who’s summarising it so well and I’m like Chitra Ketu laughing in amazement, sometimes even being misunderstood that why are you laughing? But I’m like just laughing and smiling and giggling and chuckling in amazement that how could, just like Chitra Ketu was amazed that how could you keep mother Parvati on your lap and speak on renunciation, I am amazed how could you, you know, hear something for like two and a half hours and retain all of that in the same order with all those examples, with all those details, with all those stories and with all those emotions and give the right conclusion. I would say that I’m amazed at your amazement.
I can remember what I heard in the last two hours, but you have probably memorised things for 20-30 years and you’re able to draw them from your memory at any moment. It’s amazing. So it’s wonderful to have your association.
Thank you for sharing your heart filled with Krishna. Adantha, any concluding words? I also would like to say thank you very much to both of you. It’s for us, for Aadham Kathanam, Pavanam Bhagavad Gita, we should learn to come together with devotees and have some discussions and Krishna Katha is not like a lecture in the university.
It’s not like a sermon in the church. It’s not like a commercial on television, but it’s meant to be for us, for us. There should be some back and forth, otherwise it doesn’t stick to us and it’s so wonderful that I get some opportunity to be with personalities like the two of you even knowing.
If I say something humble, you’re going to like both. Go back. So I won’t say anything.
I’ll just say that. We will say the same thing. Neha Kim brother, why are you murdering us? Thank you very much.
We look forward to continuing this next week. Hare Krishna. Thank you.