How to understand scriptural promises part 2

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Shrotu Sheela Dayo Gunaha Yatra Tejas Itchunam Mano Yatra Manasvinam Word for word translation Mahatvam Greatness Ichchatam For those desiring Teertham The process Shrotu of the hearer Sheela Dayaha High character Gunaha Qualities Yatra in which Tejaha prowess Tad that Itchunam For those who desire Manaha Adoration Yatra in which Manasvinam For thoughtful men Translation in purport by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swamishla Prabhupada Translation Anyone who hears this narration of Dhruva Maharaj acquires exalted qualities like him For anyone who desires greatness, prowess or influence, here is the process by which to acquire them and for thoughtful men who want adoration, here is the proper means Purport In the material world, everyone is after profit, respectability and reputation Everyone wants the supreme exalted position and everyone wants to hear about the great qualities of exalted persons All ambitions which are desirable for great persons can be fulfilled simply by reading and understanding the narration of Dhruva Maharaj’s activities So this is Shubhadbhagavatam Let’s recite some prayers before we move ahead Chanting prayer Chanting prayer So here So here we continue our discussion We continue our discussion on this verse Conclusion of the Dhruva Maharaj’s pastime and here the narrator that is Shukadeva Swami is telling us the readers that this is what we will get if we can turn toward the Lord and we can become devoted to Him by hearing the Lord’s pastime, hearing in particular this pastime. This is what we can get.
Those who desire something great, they can get that great thing also. It’s not that they can’t get it. They will get it and how will they get it? They will get it by just hearing this pastime.
Now we may wonder, this seems to be, first of all, quite a materialistic promise without much component of spirituality in it. And along with that, it also seems to be quite a bit, is it an over promise? Is it that everybody who hears this particular pastime will actually become, that way, all, that will actually become, will develop the, develop wealth and greatness, mahatvam, ichchitam. Will they actually become great? So the first part of the question that rises, I have, we discussed yesterday why material promises are also sometimes given.
The purpose of giving material promises is to help us recognise that for each one of us, there has to be a gradual progression in one’s growth. The growth doesn’t happen automatically and initially people need to be given what they want before they can be given what they need. And in that sense, this is talking about something which is quite significant, that the attitude that we all can even get material things by the worship of the Lord, that is something which is very important for a devotee to understand.
Not necessarily in terms of a devotee seeking material things, but in terms of a devotee at least recognising that there is something much higher in life which can also be sought and attained in due course. So let’s try to look at this in terms of what this means for us as seekers. So the first question that might come which I didn’t discuss yesterday was, how do we actually understand these promises? Are they something which are, are they possibilities? Are they universal realities? Are they something which may happen? But is it that now we all have heard the pastimes of, we have read the pastime of Dhruva many times, we may have heard it many times.
So is it that all of us will develop this kind of greatness, Mahatma Ikshatama as is described? So these are all very important questions that need to be addressed carefully. So how might we go about addressing them? Let’s consider that one by one. Somehow, I’m sorry, my PPT is not opening.
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So I think it should still be visible. So we look at it this in two terms over here. So we could, if you look at it in terms of this, are the scriptural promises real? Or one is they’re universally true at all times.
That could be one attitude. The other attitude could be they are just poetic exaggerations. So now if they’re universally true at all times, we may claim that this is the faithful position.
If it’s, if scripture promises, it is going to happen. But then it is quite often we who have to add caveats which are not given in scripture. Say, for example, this will happen when we hear in proper consciousness, when we hear with the proper faith, when we hear in parampara.
So then these are caveats which are not exactly mentioned in the scripture. They have a true element in it, no doubt. But they are not mentioned in the scripture.
So if we claim that they are universally true, you know, experience doesn’t seem to demonstrate that. But then if you go to the other extreme and they say they are just poetic exaggerations, that is not the way our tradition has approached it. And we know that the Bhagavatam is spoken in a very serious frame of mind.
Parikshit Maharaj is about to die and he’s facing life’s final exam very gallantly. So at that time, none of the participants in the Shukadeva Goswami or Suta Goswami, neither of them seem to be in a mood where they would be interested in poetic exaggeration of things. So how do we understand this? So we can put it in this way that they are, these promises, they are expressions of the magnitude of the Lord’s compassion, the magnitude that Krishna can be this compassionate also.
Now, does that mean that in every situation he will be compassionate in exactly the same way? Well, not necessarily. We say why not? So it’s why not? Because we have to see that there’s a matter of reciprocation over here. So ultimately, there is a reciprocity principle.
So if the devotee approaches the Lord in the repentant mood, then what happens is the Lord reciprocates in a compassionate mood. So that means if our heart is, if we approach the Lord with a repentant heart and the Lord reciprocates with a compassionate heart. So if a person is really approaching with a repentant heart, oh my dear Lord, I have committed many, many mistakes.
I have done many misdeeds. So I need your mercy. That’s a repentant heart.
So the repentant heart evokes the compassionate heart from the Lord. Now, however, if we go there with a calculative head, now this is what this particular book has promised and I’ve done it. Why is it not producing the result? So if we go to with a calculative head, the Lord can also reciprocate with a calculative head.
I’ll explain what a calculative head means. But this principle of reciprocity is actually Bhagavad Gita 4.11. As all people, as all people surrender unto me, I reward them accordingly. This principle is being demonstrated over here.
Let’s see how, or this principle is applicable over here, more precisely. If you consider how the reciprocity principle applies, in this context, how we approach and how the Lord reciprocates. So for example, if we approach with a repentant heart, that means, my dear Lord, I’m so fallen without your mercy.
I have no hope. Then what happens is the Lord responds with a compassionate heart. You know, I will use my unlimited mercy to wash away, to get rid of all your misdeeds.
So the attitude with which you approach evokes a reciprocal attitude from the Lord’s side. But if we approach with a calculative head, you know, okay, this is what the scripture promised. I have done this much devotional service.
I have done this, this, this, this. And therefore, I am entitled to this. Now, the Lord can very well reciprocate.
This is the calculative head. If he starts calculating our misdeeds, of course, in one sense, karma is an infallible calculator. But here we are talking about bhakti.
Bhakti, in one sense, is like mercy, supersedes or mercy goes far beyond justice, leave alone retribution. But if we start becoming calculative, then the Lord can also become calculative. So we have done so many wrongdoings, we have done in so many lifetimes.
So the whole mood in bhakti is an approach of shraddha, is an approach of devotion. And devotion itself does not mean calculation. If you start becoming very calculative, then that is not really very devotional.
Now, nowadays, many devotees on Ekadashi’s, we read Ekadashi Mahatma, some devotees read Ekadashi Mahatma. This story, this Ekadashi has so much potency, that Ekadashi has so much potency. Now, in one sense, anyway we are intensifying our devotion, that is good.
But Prabhupada did not talk so much about specific Ekadashi’s and the stories behind them. Now, we might become very calculative in our bhakti also. Oh, in this month, I can get much, much more credits.
In Kartik, if I do bhakti, I get much more credits. Therefore, I will do more bhakti in Kartik. Okay.
That is somehow or other, practise bhakti, that is good, at one level. Another level, as devotees, we want to think, rather than thinking, I’ll get more mercy and think, Kartik is a month that is dear to Krishna. So, let me please Krishna on this day.
It’s like, on Janmashtami, why do we do special austerity? Is it so that Krishna is in a more generous mood and Krishna will give more mercy? That’s good. That is also, anyway we get mercy, it is good. Anyway, we can connect with Krishna, it is good.
But actually, if we are really treating Krishna as a person, then this is the day when Krishna appeared. And not just He appeared in this world, but He appeared for us, for souls like us who are lost in this world. So, we do special devotional activities simply to please Krishna.
It’s like, we go to somebody’s birthday party and we give them a special gift, hoping that they will give us a special gift back in return. Well, at least some connection is developed. So, the calculative mentality, we often turn away from it with respect to material results.
And that’s understandable. As devotees, we are not interested so much in material results. But we sometimes bring the same calculative mentality with respect to spiritual results.
So, now whether the results are material or spiritual, why material results are promised? Because the principle is Yena Kena Prakarya, Manha Krishna Yusha. Somehow Arjuna fixed the mind on Krishna. However, if one starts insisting on those material results, expecting those material results, then that can lead to problems.
Let’s see how it will lead to problems. So, what could be a, so how do we see? So, we could say analysing scriptural promises, if I put it this way, how do we analyse scriptural promises? If these are extraordinary promises, if you do this, you get this, this, this. So, we expect and demand and the same happens for us.
Say, for example, in this case that Narayan was chanted, the name of Narayan was chanted just once by Ajamil. And what happened was he was delivered. First time he was delivered from the Yamadutas.
That itself is glorious. So, can we demand, why do I need to chant throughout my life? I’ll just chant at the end of my life and I’ll expect deliverance. Well, it’s not that simple.
It’s not that simple. That is never the mood of our Acharyas. That is not the mood of Shukdev Goswami when he narrates his pastime and that is not the mood of Shri Prabhupada in his commentary.
The mood is, so we expect and demand the same happens for us, that is like the calculative head. We are approaching the calculative head. But what we need to do is approach with a repentant heart filled with faith in the Lord.
So, the idea is that if the Lord can be so merciful to occasional practitioners of bhakti, how much will he be merciful if I practise bhakti diligently? So, somebody chants the names once, if we chant regularly lifelong, how much more we will be benefited, we will be blessed rather. Even the word benefit is a bit calculative. So, of course, we can use the word, but words have certain connotations in people’s minds and we need to be aware of those connotations.
Recently, I was talking with a devotee who does a lot of contemporary outreach and he said that I have found even the word spiritual advancement that to many people in today’s world sounds very self-serving. It’s like, I am seeking financial advancement. I am seeking corporate advancement.
So, I want to grow in my, I want to get a bigger position. I want to get a financial advancement. So, he said he almost always prefers the word spiritual growth.
Growth doesn’t sound to be calculative. Growth, at least growth doesn’t come out to be, doesn’t have that mundane calculative or corporate connotation. So, if we, now apart from the connotation of the words, the emotion or the disposition of the heart is also important.
So, if you are approaching, and this is what I should also be getting, then we are missing out on the point that there’s a personal relationship with the Lord. So, let’s take this point, you know, when we talk about faith, somebody may say, no, but if this is told in the scripture, this is going to happen. I don’t want to hear any rationalisation of yours.
This is going to happen and if you question this, then you are a doubter. Well, okay, that could be one way of looking at it. But is that the only way of understanding faith? If you consider faith and devotional disposition, what does devotional disposition in the context of faith mean? I believe that God is omnipotent.
God can do everything, anything and everything. Yes, Krishna can, for one who, or to speak of the entire Dhruv Maharaj pastime, Krishna can deliver somebody who just hears one verse of the Dhruv Maharaj pastime. But how does my faith in God’s omnipotence and benevolence translate if I expect and demand? Because you said you will do this, this is what the scripture says, therefore, it has to happen.
And why can you not do it? So, if we may say to God like this, you have the power to do everything, then why are you not doing this thing for me? So, if we have this attitude in this question, this is not a particularly devotional disposition and this will not be particularly pleasing to the Lord also. So, why are you not doing this thing for me? So, the omnipotence of the Lord is not meant to make Him a servant of our desires, even if our desires are devotional desires. And what to speak of? Our desires may not be devotional right now.
On the other hand, the faith means we need to commit and await. Yes, if this is what the Lord can do, then now He knows what is best for me. So, the mood of a devotee would be, you know, my Lord, what is best for me and I will keep striving for your mercy no matter how long it takes.
So, there is awaiting on one side and there is committing. It’s not just committing, not just awaiting, it’s both. So, you have a plan for my advancement, for my growth.
The word advancement is quite implicit in our vocabulary. So, what happens is that if we consider from that perspective, we are not denying the reality of those promises, the scriptural promises at all. But we are saying that to expect that reality to be translated into our lives and to say that that expectation is actually the strength of our faith.
Well, that may be a misunderstanding of what faith is. So, why is that exactly? Because ultimately, we are talking about a relationship with the Lord. And the relationship with the Lord means it’s a personal relationship.
It’s a personal reciprocation. The Lord is not like a machine, where, you know, if we put in, say, like, there is a soda vending machine or there is some machine which gives some drinking water or something. You put this much money and you’ll get this much water or this kind of food item or this kind of stuff you’ll get from that.
The Lord is not like that. His reciprocity is personal. It’s not mechanical.
And that brings us to this point over here. So, as soon as we talk about personality, we cannot have complete predictability. Now, what does it mean? If we start expecting mathematical predictability, that means that, say, for example, if I take this phone and I drop this.
Now, I won’t drop it. But if I were to drop it, it will fall down. And if somebody knows enough physics, they can say from here, if my hand is below or the floor is below, after how much time it will fall, that can be predicted.
So, in some ways, mathematical predictability works enormously precisely in many domains of material nature. But it is domains of material nature, where conscious beings are not involved. But in the domain of conscious beings, but this doesn’t work, actually.
So, there are some fields of scientific, hard sciences are, of course, math. But when it comes to economics, economic models have not really been very successful because people’s behaviours can’t be so thoroughly predicted. And nowadays, with the pandemic, this is going on and on for more than a year.
Of course, some parts are recovering. The thing is that some people say follow the science. But the problem is that this is not just a microbe, which from our perspective, practically has no consciousness and simply going wherever it can reproduce and grow.
But it is also conscious beings. So, which model of say epidemiology, how epidemics spread, how they can be controlled, which model will work, which model will not work. So, we could say biology is a hard science.
Physics is the hardest of sciences. Biology is relatively considered to be a hard science, but still it is a study of life. But if you go to economics, if you go to epidemiology, these involve not just microorganisms which behave in relatively predictable ways, but it also involves the carriers of the microorganisms who don’t behave in predictable ways.
So, some parts of the world, there have been complete lockdowns and still the pandemic has spread and that is blamed on people who couldn’t follow the lockdowns. And there are other parts of the world where, relatively few, where lockdowns were never imposed or not that strictly. And in some parts over there, the pandemic has spread severely, in some parts it has not spread.
So, some places they say people were responsible and that’s why it didn’t happen. Some people say the weather was inclement or whatever. So, it’s not so easy to predict.
So, if it is difficult to predict the behaviour of human beings itself, then what to speak of predicting the behaviour of the supreme being. So, if we expect mathematical predictability in terms of the fulfilment of scriptural promises, then we are in one sense almost reducing the supreme lord to a mechanical principle or a mechanical function almost. On the other hand, if we go to the other extreme, then does it mean it’s not predictable at all? Does that mean there is, do we fear total unreliability? That means I may practise bhakti throughout my life and still I will get nothing but trouble in my life because the lord is completely independent and that seems to be quite objectionable to us.
That doesn’t make sense to us and that is not what the scriptures also teaches. So, the in-between balance understanding would be see the unpredictability of the reciprocity as exciting, not disorienting. That means it’s a person and how the person acts that is unpredictable, but that unpredictability doesn’t make it mean that it’s going to be just necessarily chaotic.
It is actually going to be, it’s the excitement of devotion. It’s when Prabhupada went to America. At that time, it was not that he had a clear understanding of what would happen, where he would go and so, how it would happen.
Actually speaking, the thing is that Prabhupada himself says that this is my inference. This is almost, anuman can mean guess. This is my guess that this is what will happen.
You must have some plan for me, oh lord. It is not that Prabhupada had a complete, a clear picture of this is how Krishna is going to reciprocate with me. Prabhupada had faith and Krishna himself came to him in a special vision and that also reinforced Prabhupada’s conviction in Anjala Dutta.
But still, it was not that everything was clearly known to Prabhupada and that’s how everything worked out. No, it was not at all like that. So, in fact, if we move forward, if you look in principle at the way things work, that the lord reciprocates with the devotees.
But even in the Bhagavatam, there are different pastimes where the success of devotion is demonstrated in different ways to different degrees. Now, if you consider here, even this particular pastime which we are discussing, this is the conclusion of the Dhruv Maharaj pastime and this is like the thrilling Vinuma. It is the climax of the pastime and in this finale for the reverting story, it is the ultimate success is shown as if in a dramatic multicoloured display.
That means what? Everybody sees that this aeroplane comes from above and Vishnu does come out and they honour Dhruva and then Dhruva ascends onto that aeroplane and then Dhruva actually steps, it’s a death comes towards him and he steps on the foot of death and he climbs up. Now, all these are very dramatic and vivid demonstrations of spiritual success. How he was totally successful.
So, in the Dhruva pastime, actually at one level, bhakti is shown to provide material success and spiritual success. By the practise of bhakti, he becomes a powerful king and by the practise of bhakti, he also in a visible way attains the ultimate success. But if you consider this kind of result, this kind of materially visible success is rarity even in the Bhagavatam.
So, if you consider the Bhagavatam is to a large extent a book about death, about departure from the world. So, when you talk about the death, so we have Dhruv Maharaj pastime here, the mode of the description of death and the character whose death is described. So, if you consider the character who departs from the world and what happens over here is the mode of departure, if you consider for Dhruva, Vaikuntha aeroplane comes and takes him to the spiritual world.
But if you consider the Pandavas, their departure is not that dramatic. They come to know that Krishna has departed from the world. They are devastated by that, especially Arjuna’s devastation is described in the first canto 15th chapter and after that what happens is the Pandavas depart, that they go to the forest and the specifics of the details, the specifics and the details can vary the way they described in the Mahabharata and the Bhagavatam are slightly different.
But the point is that the way the Mahabharata describes, they go northward, they meditate and they depart from the world. So, now if you consider Prithu Maharaj, Prithu Maharaj, he again, he has a successful life. He is able to discipline the earth.
He is able to perform 99 sacrifices. But at the end of it, he enters into meditation and he departs from the world. So again, neither in the case of the Pandavas nor in the case of Prithu, there is any visible demonstration of a person going back to Godhead or of a plane coming to take them to Godhead.
Now if you consider, I am only taking out some deaths in the Bhagavatam, not all of them. But Puranjan, Puranjan of course is the allegory and Puranjan’s next life becomes Vaidehi and Vaidehi, her husband dies and she is lamenting and that is the time the super soul appears before her and the super soul solaces her and then exactly it is not described that a aeroplane comes or he or she, Puranjan basically, he joins hands with the super soul and goes back. But it is just that the super soul, the awareness of the super soul arises and that implies that eventually he will go toward perfection.
The specifics can vary in terms of the commentary of the Acharyas. But the point is that the way there is visible demonstration of the attainment of perfection in Dhruv Maharaj, that is rare even in the Bhagavatam. If you consider Ajamil, there is some level of miraculousness.
So there is, he sees the Vishnudutas once when he is about to die and then after that he performs great austerities and again he sees Vishnudutas coming. But again in that case it is only Vishnudutas described. There is not much explicit description that they come with a plane and they take him in the plane.
It is not described there like that. Now if you consider Vitrasur, now overall Ajamil is not a particularly exalted devotee initially. But we see that there is a miracle happens for him.
And even Dhruva, so if they say Dhruva starts from a materialistic motive, Ajamil gets diverted into not just materialism but gross sinful materialism. For both of them, there is some level of visible miracle happening. So the level of visible miracles happening, that doesn’t seem to correlate in any way with the merit of the overall life trajectory of the person.
So Vritrasur is a demon and he is fighting as a demon and suddenly towards the last moment his devotion from his previous life as Chitraketu manifests. But his death, all that is described is that he actually swallows Indra and then Indra breaks through his belly and then actually he cuts his body. You can say his body is cut by Indra which are part of the body you want to talk about over here.
So he bursts through the belly and then but for that whole time Indra has to do a lot of work. But it is described that Vritrasur has departed the spiritual world. But nobody exactly sees Vritrasur depart from the spiritual world.
If you consider Yadus, Yadus, they are intimate associates of Krishna and their departure seems to be quite tragic. They fight among each other. It’s tragic and horrific and they fight among each other till death.
This is quite brutal. But it’s described that even they attain perfection. If you consider Parikshit Maharaj, he is the hero of the Bhagavatam in one sense, the character for whom the Bhagavatam is spoken.
Krishna is of course the ultimate hero. But at a visible level, there is nothing dramatic. It’s dramatic that he renounced the world.
It’s tragic that he is put in a situation where he has to die in seven days. But he sits and hears and at the end of it from a visible perspective, all that happens is this Taksha comes and bites him. And actually Taksha, now there are different descriptions.
Taksha comes and says that he comes as if he is a Brahmana and suddenly he reveals himself to be the snake bird and he bites him and then his body bursts into flames. So, from a worldly perspective, it can seem to be a horrendous death. There are various ways of dying, say beheading or shooting or putting a bullet.
It’s painful but it’s quick. Burning is ghastly because we can sense our body being burned all around. So, we could say Parikshit’s death, Parikshit Maharaj’s death is quite horrific in that sense.
So, but with a spiritual vision, we understand that all of them, although the mode in which they died was, they departed from the world, they disappeared from the world was radically different. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that one of them was more meritorious and other was less meritorious. Now, of course, I haven’t mentioned over here Bhishma because Bhishma is in many ways, it’s considered ideal departure because he was right in the presence of Krishna.
After giving instruction to the Pandavas, he departed. So, that’s the ideal death. But if we consider in terms of visible demonstrations, we could say as Bhishma had Krishna in front of him, that’s a solace.
But something miraculous happening at the time of death, that’s not that common even in the Bhagavatam. So, in one sense, to appreciate the Bhagavatam, we also need to develop Shastra Chakshu. Without that, we cannot appreciate what the scripture is telling us.
So, the promises, so in one sense, so we need scriptural wisdom to understand how scriptural promises are going to be fulfilled. Otherwise, what will happen is mundane vision, we will just not be able to appreciate scriptural promises. So, we could say that Shastra Chakshu, as we see, the eyes of scripture, Chakshu is eye, Shastra Chakshu.
So, we need scriptural wisdom to understand how scriptural promises are to be seen. So, that is the point overall. So, without that, we can’t just radically insist that this is how it is, radically dismiss or this is not, this is all just exaggeration.
There has to be a balanced holistic understanding and that’s why if you see Prabhupada’s purports on the scriptural promises are never very elaborate. In many past times, Prabhupada just gives one or two sentences purports and he just moves on. So, on the other hand, where we have to do some practise, Prabhupada is quite clear how we need to restrain ourselves from sensual pleasures, how we need to commit ourselves to the practise of bhakti.
So, in terms of what we need to do, Prabhupada is quite emphatic, how we need to clarify our conceptions, how we need to purify our hearts, how we need to increase our, rectify our actions, all those, Prabhupada is very, very emphatic. So, overall as devotees, we need to focus more on what we can do, what we should be doing. The focus of scripture is on how we should be acting, not on how, what God will do and how God will do it.
That is there and that’s a dramatic narrative, but that’s not the focus of scripture, broadly speaking. So, we could put it as shifting the focus. So, there is this huge and common philosophical question that why do bad things happen to good people? Now, this is a philosophical question and it’s an important philosophical question and we can go into the philosophy of karma to explain it, but the Bhagavatam really never does really exhaustively analyse the principle of karma.
The Bhagavatam actually, it reframes the question and the whole Bhagavatam is about when bad things happen to good people, what do good people do? The Bhagavatam is time and time again a demonstration of this. So, if we apply this principle, not just to the problem of evil, but to the two scriptural promises themselves. So, if we shifting the focus to the, this is for the problem of evil, the Bhagavatam shifts that focus and the same shift of focus, we can also apply to say scriptural promises or the Lord’s reciprocation in large.
So, if we focus on when will Krishna do his part? If instead of focussing on that, if we reframe the question, what is the reframe the question? How well am I doing my part? If we focus on this question, that is far, far more productive and if you see Prabhupada’s purports are more in terms of this clarify our conceptions. What is doing our part means clarify our conceptions. We need to understand the nature of reality properly.
We need to understand the nature of God. Then we can have purify our intentions and rectify our actions. So, clarify, purify, rectify.
So, this is in one sense the essence of devotion. There is the head, there is the heart and then we can say there are the hands. So, all three are important.
These are broadly three parts of our being. So, we clarify our conceptions, we purify our intentions and then the hands represent actions, we rectify our actions. So, if we do this, if we do our part, the Lord will reciprocate.
Now, how he will reciprocate, when he will reciprocate, that is up to him. And in that sense, faith means, I will conclude this point that faith does not just mean certainty of conviction. Faith also means openness.
As Krishna will protect me of faith, the devotee has, but how Krishna will do it, when Krishna will do it, on his terms. So, that is also faith. So, faith has both these aspects to it, not just the part of, yes, this is going to happen.
But, so, expanding our conception of faith, conclude this point here. We can have a few questions or comments. That we could say faith in one side is, faith is certainty of conviction.
Yes, Krishna will protect me. But it’s also, that’s one aspect of faith. But the other aspect is also openness.
Openness, you could say openness to possibility, that this how Krishna is going to work, I don’t know. So, Prabhupada, if you see in the Markini Bhagavad Dharma, he exhibits both of these. He says that, You are the supreme controller, O Lord.
It is by your, it is under your jurisdiction that people have gone into maya. It is by your jurisdiction that people will come out of maya. But he says, I want to know how you want to make me dance, my Lord.
So, I don’t know right now. So, please make me dance the way you want. Make me dance like a puppet.
These two dimensions of faith are actually seen in Prabhupada’s Markini Bhagavad Dharma. So, as devotees, when we see these promises in scripture, we need to see them as manifestations of the Lord’s heart. That this is the extent to which the Lord’s mercy can go.
But that doesn’t mean we demand it has to go to that extent in that form, that exact form in our lives. We focus on connecting with the Lord. That means we focus not on this.
You have made this promise and I’m going to hold you to your promise. Rather, the fact that you make promises like this, that means you are so compassionate. You are so merciful.
I want to develop a personal relationship with you and whatever that relationship entails, I am ready for it. So, that is the mood of a devotee. So, we focus more on the person and connecting with the person rather than on the promise and expectation of the fulfilment of the promise.
Then we will all deepen our devotion and ultimately our heart’s deepest aspirations will be fulfilled in our eternal ecstatic union of love, the bond of love with the supremely loving and supremely lovable Lord of our heart, Krishna. So, I’ll summarise what I spoke today. Broadly speaking, today we discussed the theme of how do we see scriptural promises in terms of they may seem unrealistic to us.
How do we see their authenticity? So, the point is that we talk about two things. First is that broadly two things that we need to, it’s a matter of reciprocity. That reciprocity means if we approach with our repentant heart, then the Lord’s compassionate heart will be manifested.
If we approach the calculative head, the Lord’s calculative head will also be manifested. So, rather than reducing the Lord to a machine which functions as promised, we see that the promises are expression of a compassionate heart and we focus on connecting with that heart of the person and that is the most auspicious way to function. That is the most sustainable way to function and we discussed that elaborately how we are approaching the Lord.
And second part I discussed is that at the material level, at the material visible level, how the Lord’s promises may, how the Lord may act in our lives that can be enormously variable from person to person. So, and that doesn’t necessarily have to reflect the merit of the devotion of a particular character. As Dhruva’s pastime demonstrates success both at the material and the spiritual levels.
But that’s not necessarily the way it is for all characters in the Bhagavatam. That can vary for different characters and we discussed how from Ajamil to Pruthu to all of them how it is. So, that’s how we need to function and if we focus on connecting with the Lord, then faith means not just certainty of conviction but also openness to possibility.
And that’s how we can move ahead in our lives in a way that is steady in our bhakti. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
So, any reflections or questions? Thank you so much. If you think it’s appropriate to extend this to different, you could say promises or explanations given by Srila Prabhupada, some devotees have a question or lack of faith like when they see, oh, you know, if you dedicate your life, Prabhupada’s saying, you know, to the Sankirtan movement, then you can go back to Godhead in this one lifetime. So, then there’s devotees that they’ve seen have dedicated their lives but then maybe one committed suicide or one had left his body in a car accident after, you know, dedicating the whole life and one, you know, left their body completely alone or on and on and on.
So, just questioning, you know, like you’re saying, somebody might not have seen Dhritarashtra leave or and therefore the faith is a little bit wobbly. So, I was wondering if you have any reflections on that. It’s an important question.
See, when somebody, because they may feel that sometimes devotees who haven’t dedicated their lives, they sometimes die in unfortunate accidents or something like that. So, faith becomes wobbly. So, one of my understandings about this is that there is both a dynamic and an incremental aspect of faith.
That means as we practise bhakti, our faith naturally increases. So, we could say, if it’s a graph, it’s increasing, that’s incremental aspect. But it’s also dynamic aspect.
Dynamic aspect means what? That what is the basis of our faith that may change over time. I do podcasts with many senior devotees with whom we have discussions. So, Shana Krishnaprabhu was recently there on the podcast.
He’s the director of Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies. So, he says that if you really want to know devotees, you can ask them two questions. I said that when he told me the two questions, I said, the first question is very common and the second question is extremely rare.
But the first question is, what brought you to Krishna Consciousness? We all ask each other this question and it’s one of the relishable, adventurous parts of Krishna Consciousness, to understand how Krishna delivers all from wherever we are in our lives. But the second question is, what keeps you in Krishna Consciousness? Now, this question can almost seem sacrilegious for many people. What do you mean, what keeps? But actually, and to answer it candidly also requires a certain level of bonding between, certain level of faith, certain level of bonding, certain level of intimacy.
Because there could be many reasons, not could be, each of us, if we want to right now, probably we can think of several reasons why we may, at least a part of us, maybe our mind, maybe I don’t want to be here. So, in spite of that, we are here. So, now what keeps us in Krishna Consciousness? So, currently, I journal quite regularly.
So, currently, I’m journaling these two things and what I find is that the reasons that brought me to Krishna Consciousness and the reasons that keep me in Krishna Consciousness, they are definitely not identical circles. They are, we could say, overlapping circles. They’re like Venn diagrams, but there are significantly different things.
So, many of the things which brought me to Krishna Consciousness, those were the basis of my faith initially. Now, maybe that is not the basis of my faith. In fact, I may feel that, if I think about that, that doesn’t really convince me, that doesn’t really attract me.
And there are many aspects which I had no idea about earlier. Now, those have become quite central to my faith. So, and I’ve seen this journey with those who have candidly discussed this.
So, these two are significant. Now, there is difference, how significant the difference is, that may vary from person to person. But the point is that for each one of us, we have to, we could say, re-examining and revising and refining the foundations of our faith.
So, if my faith was because of x, y, z, say, for example, if my faith was big, that devotees are so nice. Oh, I had so many bad relationships in the world. And people are selfish and exploitative and this and that.
And devotees were so kind and so loving and so, so friendly. If that is the basis of my faith, then if I meet devotees who are judgemental, if I meet devotees who are demanding, if I meet devotees who may even be abusive or exploitative, then what’s going to happen to my faith? It will shake completely, it can be shattered also. So, now, does that mean that all devotees are like that? No.
Ideally speaking, no devotee should be like that. But we are all fallible human beings. We come, we live in a conditioned world and we come from our conditioned pasts.
So, if that were the foundation of my faith, then if that alone were the foundation of my faith, then I could run into serious problems. So, for all of us, what is the foundation of our faith? We need to introspect that. And then at one level, we can say, we all may have a particular core foundation.
So, for example, for me, it was the philosophical aspect that attracted me to Krishna Consciousness. And philosophy is definitely central to my understanding and practise of bhakti right now also. But it has grown a little bit.
It’s not just philosophy practise in a vacuum. It is philosophy, it is a practise relished and shared with other philosophically minded devotees. So, it is not just the philosophy, but it is the reciprocation based on the, centred on the philosophy.
That is what strengthens me, that is what inspires me, that’s what nourishes me. So, for all of us, on one side is whatever is the initial foundation of our faith, we may try to build that and that’s also good. But sometimes you may need to, you could say, branch our faith in different directions.
So, it’s not just in the capacity of the philosophy to answer intellectual questions perfectly or satisfactorily at least. But it’s also that people who are, I can see, who are far more intelligent than what I am. And they have grappled with these questions at a far deeper level than what I have.
And despite still grappling with these questions, they are more committed than me to the practise of bhakti. So, that means there is something trans-intellectual, which keeps them going. And maybe that is what should also be the focus of my bhakti or at least a significant part of my bhakti, it’s not the focus.
So, unless we are these three things, re-examining, revising and refining the foundations of our faith, we will, our spiritual journey will become far more, far rockier than what it needs to be. It will be rocky anyway. That is the fact of, just the result of being in a material world, which is a very rocky place.
But if we are not alert, then it will be far rockier than what it needs to be. Does it answer the question? Yes. Thanks so much, Vibhu.
Especially the association with the devotees will nourish that faith. So, that’s the real core there. Thank you so much, Vibhu.
Hi, Krishna. Thank you. Happy to be of service.
If you want to make some comments, you might also have some answers about this question. Please feel free to share. I’m just seeing that, even like you’re saying, studying Prabhupada’s books and association of devotees is helping us to grapple with some things.
Maybe we’re not certain of like, oh, why did, you know, these devotees leave their bodies like that, or whatever it might be. And so, as you were saying, we may start with a philosophy. I’m interested in philosophy.
And then we grow to, I’m interested to share with the devotees this philosophy. And, you know, that’s really the sankirtan, being together, you know, sharing, reading together, discussing together. And this seems to be what Srila Prabhupada wants us to do more.
So, thank you so much, Vibhu. Thank you very much. Happy to be of service.
I just forgot to mention about that particular question. I don’t want to go into elaborate answer. But if, say, our conception of the perfection of devotion was, is that a devotee departs like Bhishmadev.
And then if we find that a devotee departs in accident, then we’ll be shocked. But the same Bhagavatam also depicts how Abhimanyu was killed brutally on the battlefield all alone, how Jatayu was killed by Ravana. These are also part of our scriptures.
So, that’s why what you said, if you study Prabhupada’s books properly, and not just impose our own conceptions of perfection, of devotional perfection, but open ourselves to what scripture is actually talking about devotional perfection, then yes, within scripture, within Prabhupada’s purports, we will find resources for nourishing ourselves, even if our initial conceptions of devotional perfection or even devotional expectation are challenged or even shattered by life. Still, we will find the resources to move ahead in our devotional journey. So, thank you very much.
I’m happy to be of service. Any other comments or shall we stop here? If you have time, Prabhu, some others may have a question or reflection. How is your time, Prabhu? Yeah, maybe five minutes, five, ten minutes more we can take.
Nine o’clock, I have another engagement. Yes, if you want, you can, you are free to make a, please share something if you like. Oh, just, just to really appreciate, I like this analogy you gave.
I think you said, just like a soda machine, we put, we put money in it. And I thought, I was actually just thinking of, in Arjuna, how Krishna, you know, Prabhupada says, better than denying God or rejecting God, better to ask God, even if it’s an order supplier mentality, that’s better than not accepting the Supreme. So, but higher than that, in bhakti is more of a, as you said, Krishna is a person.
Go for, you know, move forward to more of a personal relationship. So, I was thinking how, how even like the deity, or as you said, you know, the soda machine, like I’ll give this, then I’ll get this. It’s a very mechanical kind of external relationship, which is at least some start.
But then in bhakti, or as we develop in bhakti, especially going towards pure bhakti, it’s just, I was just thinking the imagery how, instead of just a machine giving you a soda, you’re giving to a person without expecting, you know, it’s, and then when that person reciprocates, not a machine, it’s a very personal embrace, it’s a very comforting reciprocation, it’s a personal recognition, and how nourishing that is on the path of bhakti versus just, okay, I got this soda from a machine, or I got this reciprocation from Krishna, but in a very mechanical way. But whereas from that example, you gave, if we put in our service with a very personal, devotional, heartfelt mood, when that reciprocation comes back, it’s almost like, wow, it’s magical. And so I just thought just how, what a contrast, just the mechanical order supplier, put your coin in and get a soda, versus serving, or even in this example, serving someone, a person, and then that person gives you like a fresh squeeze juice or something.
And like, wow, that didn’t just come from a machine. So, yeah, just the unique aspect of bhakti and its personal touch. I just really appreciated how you highlighted that.
Thank you. Thank you. Happy to do your service.
Nice contrast between the machine and the person. Yeah. Thank you.
Anything else? Vandamata ji, you would like to say something in the stop after that? That’s perfect. Thank you very much. Thank you.