184 Creativity:how to see it devotionally and use it effectively – The Monk’s Podcast with Yogesvara Prabhu

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Hare Krishna, Yogeshwar Rao. Welcome back to the Monk's Podcast. Thank you.

What a pleasure to be with you again. Yes, it's my honor and pleasure, Prabhu. Well, I consider you a very dear friend, and I'm so grateful to you for the service that you do.

It's very important. I hear from so many people how much they appreciate the discussions that you generate and the guests you have, and please know it's very appreciated, very much appreciated. Thank you, Prabhu.

For me, it's a blessing to have us both, you know, it's like you're doing Vaishnava Sangha and Vaishnava Seva, both are happening. So I benefited both ways. I'm grateful for that.

So we have had many discussions on topics of a wide range. So today I thought we could discuss on a topic which is, which is in some ways, related with both of us. You're an established author.

I believe you also made documentaries and movies. And I've been trying to do some writing. So creativity is also a part of at a broad range, human individuality, and also a part of spirituality, especially devotional spirituality, which involves using the senses.

So you could talk broadly about nurturing creativity and specifically, literary creativity, you could go into in a spiritual movement, or you could say more in a religious organization. I want to use a more provocative wording for that. You okay with that topic today? Oh, my goodness.

Thank you. You challenged me to to go deep into the ecstasies of Krishna consciousness. I'm grateful to you.

So maybe I can start with a specific question, where you always offer, you always have a literary inclination, writing and things like that. Yeah, I'm going back to high school. And, you know, I was always a journalist for the student newspaper in high school, and then an editor of the university newspaper when I was in college.

And then I was going for a career in journalism when I met devotees. And from the very beginning was fascinated with the literature of Krishna consciousness. And I used to spend a lot of time reading Prabhupada's books, there weren't very many in those early days.

But Prabhupada even walked by my room one time, and he was traveling in Geneva, and he saw me reading Chaitanya Charitamrita, I think. So the next morning in class, he said, he was talking about the importance of reading literature and books and saying, just like our Yogeshwar Prabhu, because so kind, Yogeshwar Prabhu, he's always reading our books. So this should be encouraged.

So yeah, that was a big appeal for me was that there's this beautiful literature, and that it wasn't just philosophical, it was poetic. You reach a point in your spiritual life where philosophy is no longer sufficient. Philosophy is to get you there.

And once you're rolling downhill, once your spiritual life gets going, then the words are not enough. You enter a world of song, of dance, of poetry, of paintings, and music. And look at the descriptions of the spiritual world.

There's some reading of books going on, you know, Uddhava and so on. But it's mostly the world of creativity, isn't it? It's a world of creativity. This is a beautiful thought, Prabhu, that in one sense, you can talk about philosophy, you could say it is necessary to say, convince the head that this is what I should be doing in my life.

But once when we connect our heart with Krishna, then it's more about creativity, song, dance, poetry, music. That's a beautiful continuum, I would say. Of course, we can always study philosophy.

But it is true that the bhakti saints are not known so much for their philosophy as they are known for their spontaneously composed songs. We're a tradition of poets. You know, the Goswamis, they were writing dramas and poetry and songs, Narottam's beautiful songs, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, so many beautiful poetry and songs and Krishnadasa, Kavi Karnapur.

And, you know, our culture, Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada, wrote so much poetry. I think it may have been published, a book of Prabhupada's poetry. Wonderful.

Beautiful. That's our tradition. We're a tradition of artists.

So that's a beautiful way of looking at it. Now, if we consider creativity in those terms, at one level, if we focus on the missionary aspect of Krishna consciousness, because I love this way you brought a new frame of thinking for me. Because in some ways, see, I used to write some small poetry before and I started writing articles also.

But in general, what I've noticed is that there is at least some appreciation, some encouragement for philosophical articles. But poetry, one of the comments I got, you know, has anyone ever become a devotee by reading a poetry? Then I said that, you know, there are so many saints, they have written poems. You don't sing the Vaishnav songs.

It's preposterous. You think you're like a saint who can make Vaishnav songs which are going to attract people's hearts? So I said, I didn't go into the discussion further. Obviously, I'm not that kind of saint.

But if in our generation, we are going to have some, in our future generations, if we are going to have some people who are going to compose songs, well, they're going to start from somewhere. It's unlikely that, maybe it's possible Krishna can do anything. But a fully perfected poet appears in our movement and starts spontaneously composing glorious, pure devotional songs for Krishna in English.

It may not happen overnight like that. So I don't want to start on a negative note, but this is the broad approach towards creativity, literary creativity I have seen. This is a critical point you bring up.

Very many ways. On one level, for example, when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was in the later years of his Leela on Earth in Jagannath Puri, his secretary, Swaroop Damodar, would always first read any submission of poetry or literature that someone wanted to bring to read to Mahaprabhu to see whether it was authorized. And there was one example, I don't remember who it was.

He started to, he got the very first line out and Swaroop Damodar said, stop. Because already there was some philosophical shortcomings. So in that sense, we're very careful to not create a conflict with our Vedanta.

Anything that's done needs to be authentic. It needs to be in harmony and consonance with the core theology of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. At the same time, you don't want to set that bar so high that nobody can reach it.

That's the beauty of, I was just reading something. I want to read this to you. This is from Krishna Chetraswamy.

This is one week reading here for a course I'm taking with the Oxford Center. And it's a course on the history of the Gaudiya Vaishnav culture. And it's just such an honor to be studying Krishna consciousness in the company of such wonderful, brilliant, devoting scholars.

So in this one article, this is a chapter in a book published by Rutledge, an academic, respected academic publisher. The book is called Circling in on the Subject, Discourses of Ultimacy in Chaitanya Vaishnavism and Reading. And this is, I'm sorry, the name of the book is Chaitanya Vaishnav Philosophy.

So in this one chapter, Krishna Chetraswamy says, in this dynamic space of shifting horizons, present-day Chaitanya Vaishnavas are finding that they must rethink and reapply the teachings of their tradition to make accessible and applicable the essential insights of Krishna Bhakti. Renewal of tradition, here's the point, renewal of tradition is an ongoing process. And especially now, in a world where critical philosophical thought is widely fostered, Chaitanya Vaishnavas find themselves called upon to re-examine all their presuppositions, just as they challenge others to do the same in the light of the Chaitanya claims about the nature and pursuit of ultimate truth as the defining feature of being fully human.

In other words, we're not so much a religion, a dogma, as we are a worldview. And a worldview, you know, we're a view of what life is all about. And it is our, the core of our theology, that every living being has a unique relationship with God.

There is no one size fits all. And because each of us is a unique individual with our own extremely specific relationship with God, the expression of that love is also uniquely individual. We have to be prepared to allow that to happen.

There was a time, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, when I had a real difficulty with all of these kirtan groups coming up. You know, we've got dozens, if not hundreds of kirtan groups using, you know, electrical instruments and doing all kinds of, you know, bossa nova beats and, you know, samba beats and, you know, bringing all kinds of other influences into a musical vernacular that has its own tradition. And I used to wonder, is this, you know, sahaja? Is this bossa bossa? Is it just plain wrong? But then I realized, well, look at the results.

The results are so many people, particularly young people, but not just young people, are becoming attracted by talented musicians. So the attraction may not be initially that they're understanding the philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita, but it is a point of entry for a lot of people. It's a point of entry.

So I've become a little softer about it. You know, I mean, just between you and me and your 10 million viewers, my personal taste in music is jazz. I have a classic jazz, you know, John Coltrane, Miles.

I go for the classics, Bill Evans, because there's something in the spontaneity of jazz improvisation that reminds me of Raghunuga Bhakti. You know, it's, you know, a lot of jazz musicians, jazz artists started off in classical music. You have to master the basics.

You got to know the scales. Before you can start improvising, get the basics. That's Krishna consciousness.

You know, you start with a devotional service practice, Sadhan Bhakti. Then you can begin to improvise. So there's a kind of a metaphor there in jazz, and I find that very inspiring.

So I guess I've learned to loosen up a little bit when it comes to this. So we can't be so strict. We shouldn't set the bar so high that only three people can come to Krishna consciousness.

Okay. Mahaprabhu's mission was to engage everybody and allow them to come and use their God given creative talents in God's service. So that means that there'll be like a tension between a person spontaneously expressing their devotion through their creativity, and they're being able to align their understanding of devotion and their expression of devotion with what is the normative in the tradition.

Would that be something, some other way of articulating this? No, no, that's quite good. Let's put it, we can also phrase it this way, that someone with some creative ability will find that their creative expressions achieve greater heights if they are well grounded in the basics of Bhakti theology. If they're trying to engage their musical talents, artistic talents, whatever it may be in Krishna's service, make sure you understand the ground that you're tilling.

Make sure that you have a sense of what the material is that you're working with so that your expression becomes as beautiful as it can possibly be. So because we've seen, for example, artwork, and go back to the beginning of the paintings for Bhagavad Gita and so on, Prabhupada proved that because they were sincere expressions and he made sure that the content was accurate, stylistically, creatively, artistically, it was naive, a lot of the work. As the artists became more deeply entrenched in their understanding of the subject matter and practiced, how do you get to, if I could, the practice, practice, practice, you know, the more they did their artwork, the more the aesthetic quality of the work, of you know, what they do.

Now, is that the only way? No, of course not. We have a god brother named Mahaprabhu, this artist from Uruguay, I think, and he has art exhibits. I think his art gallery is in Belgium, but he creates a range of artists that he's found, and they're everything from abstract to modern to cubist to traditional, you know, schools of thought, very, very wide range.

It's all valid. It's not that there's only one way. I asked Prabhupada one time, this was about, I was supposed to do something for him, and it was in Paris, and I was going out, and it was something different.

I don't remember exactly what it was, so I said, Philip Prabhupada, if we're trying to do something for you, and we don't have a direct instruction from your books, or a chance to talk with you about it, to know exactly, precisely how to do something, how should we know that we're doing it the right way? He said, you can use your intelligence. He says, there's two things. There's Vediki and Lokiki.

Vediki means in the Vedas. It's positive. It's in the text, and you can read it.

Here's how you do this. Lokiki means according to the loka, the situation, where there may not be a direct explanation. If your motive is pure, if you are grounded in the knowledge of the philosophy, and ideally, if you can have approval of the Vaishnav community, but that may not always be possible, it will be accepted.

There's something about the motive behind service that's essential. We know that even someone with very, very modest talent, if their heart is good, and their motive is to express that love, God will accept it. Krishna will accept that.

You can't wow him with your artistic skills. Prabhupada left. Beautiful way of putting it.

This is a nice way of, normally we talk about, we can't wow Krishna with our wealth, that Krishna accepts even a fruit and a flower, but the way you're putting it, yes, if we can't impress Krishna with anything material, that also would mean even creative ability. I remember there's an incident that when was about to depart from the world, he wanted, there's a famous kirtan near the Gaudiya Math, was about to sing kirtan for him, he said, no, no, get that other devotee. That devotee was not a very well-known singer, but he had quite a devoted heart.

So it seems the import that his followers got on that, to attract the public, we may have a person who's a good singer, but ultimately, at the time of departure, at that time, the time that mattered the most, Bhagavan Sri Raghuram wanted to have somebody who was not so much necessarily musical, but pure-hearted. Now, that's your qualification as the listener, when you can make the distinction between artistic facility and devotional facility. That's to your credit, if you can listen, and instead of just wanting technical prowess, some great display of talent, if you hear the heart and soul coming through, that's your credit, that's your spiritual progress.

Prabhupada left, it was London, and one of the children there had given him a drawing. It was just a crayon drawing of Krishna playing with food, not artistically very accomplished. On the plane ride, his secretary told me he pinned that drawing of Krishna to the back of the seat in front of him, and that's what he was using when he was chanting his japa, looking at that child's drawing of Krishna.

Artistically, it wasn't very accomplished, but it was the heart and soul and loving offering of a child. How much more do you want in life? There is material skill, or we could say the material dimension of ability. At one level, that is also we could say an opulence of Krishna, because Krishna says everything actually comes from him.

So the presence of a material ability, especially extraordinary material ability is a blessing of Krishna, the manifesting of Krishna. Now, whether a person will use that to themselves move toward Krishna or take others toward Krishna, that is up to their free will. So in one sense, if our interest is in moving toward Krishna, then we can be Krishna conscious whenever we see any extraordinary skill in anyone.

But we don't ourselves get carried away by it. Just because this person has extraordinary skill doesn't necessarily mean that they are a great devotee. We appreciate that extraordinary skill as a manifestation of Krishna, but then we also evaluate that, is this actually taking me toward Krishna? So that way, we could say there are two levels of Krishna consciousness when we encounter some skills.

Would that be a fair understanding? It is a fair understanding. I think there's another dimension, though, that needs to be added here. And that is that ultimately, we want people to know that we care for them.

We want people to know that we are concerned for their well-being. We wish to be of service to them in their spiritual life. And sometimes that means just reaching out to them where they are, not converting them to our point of view or something.

But being comfortable enough within our own covenant with God that just that expression of love for someone else, they'll come to the conclusion. They'll come to that decision that now I wish to direct my energies in a different way. There was no way that the devotees who met George Harrison back in London in 1968-69 could have preached at him, you should write songs about Krishna, and expect that he was going to take them.

When he came of his own free will to the point of recognizing, you know, excuse my imitation of George Harrison, at one point in an interview, he said, you know, I could write all kinds of songs if I wanted to, you know, hey, baby, whatcha gonna do? He says, but I don't want to do that. He says, I'd rather write something that has some lasting value. That's why he began writing beautiful Krishna conscious songs, living in the material world, you know, from the spiritual sky, such sweet memories have I, you know, I pray, I pray that I won't get caught up and stay in the material world, you know, and chanting Hare Krishna, and my goodness, what amazing talent, but you can't force that.

You can't, you know, insist on it. So sometimes I think we have to be prepared to just encourage people where they are, where they are, even if it doesn't seem to have any connection with Krishna consciousness. That's difficult, because to do that, you have to be very self self aware, and very comfortable in your own spiritual life.

Because otherwise, you're going to find it threatening. This, this, I think, is the next stage in our evolution as a movement for Srila Prabhupada. And this is a very serious subject for me.

I've just spent three years putting together a code of ethical behavior, which thank goodness, the GBC voted into law, which is attempting, in essence, to say that you cannot separate your behavior from your spiritual progress. Your advancement in Krishna consciousness will be tied, will be commensurate to how much your behavior rises, becomes something exemplary. Not conversional, but compassionate is the quality to strive for.

And that means, appreciate it. Let me just interrupt you a little bit. So you could say, when you say not compact, not conversional, but compassionate, many, many devotees may think that conversion is itself compassion.

But in one sense, Prabhupada never used the word conversion. And when the word conversion has a, has a tone of forcing of, of not respecting the individuality and the freewill of the person, of almost treating the person as a insentient object who has to be, who has to be changed. So what he's saying is that self-acceptance of the person has to be there, wherever they are, and then move forward from there.

First of all, there's no converting to Krishna consciousness. That's an illusion. That's a mistake.

That is philosophically a mistake. The soul does not convert to become a Vaishnava. You're already Atma.

You're already a spark of God. You don't convert to become Him. I think when we've become… I've had so many discussions on this topic.

This is such a foundational point that in one sense, the word conversion just doesn't apply because at all, we are talking about some external Upadhis for the soul, which are being changed. But that is, if we understand that we are the soul, then we don't belong to any religion. We don't belong to any particular faith at all.

So where is the question of conversion? It's more of, we could say it's more of realization of awakening rather than conversion. And then there could be different ways to awaken also, different ways to gain realization. It's fascinating.

I have to say Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, talking with you is a deep dive. It's a very deep dive. It's never shallow.

You get into some really, really important issues. We are talking after all about retrieving our souls. We're talking about the shift in the direction of humanity.

It's a tragic time. I'm 71 years old and I cannot remember a moment in my life when the world was in such a tragic and complex state of affairs. I mean, there was always problems, there was always fighting and so on, some hatred, but what's happening right now? It's very, very, very challenging.

So the stakes are high. What we're talking about here, I'm glad that you and I can have lighthearted conversations, conversations that have room for some humor and so on. But ultimately the subject is very deep.

And when you talk about creativity, you're talking about one of the most powerful forces in the universe. I mean, what is creativity? It's God. When we talk about God, we're talking about the creative force, the force behind creation.

We talk about what is creation? It is a creative act. So this is a very important subject that you've raised. This is not a small thing.

When you connected this to say, it is creativity, you're connecting with God. I was just thinking of Krishna talks about how he manifests as the essence of everything. So he says, I am the ability in you people.

That could be one thing. That could be one way we could connect his creativity. And of course, he says, I give knowledge, remembrance and forgetfulness.

So that could also be creativity. It's generally understood by anybody who's in the creative field that there's something higher that grips me and speaks through me or works through me. They may not always accept that it is God, but they know there's something there.

So is there, are there any other points in philosophy that in our philosophies, which say, which associate creativity or the creative force with Krishna? We have a literal creation and Brahmaji gets energy from Krishna, but that's more of a physical, you could say, physical creation. But when you talk about the creative arts. Well, you just quoted verses from Bhagavad Gita.

I think it was ninth chapter. Krishna says, I'm the ability and the intelligence. Yeah.

So that's, that's a very direct evidence of creativity as God inspired. Also, historically, there are, it was like a German mathematician named Gauss, G-A-U-S-S. I can think of the 1700s or 1800s, who say that, you know, he would be working on mathematical problems and very complicated, couldn't figure it out.

And he'd go to sleep. And in the morning, he says, right, the answer was there. He says, as though I was being inspired by some higher power.

And Mozart, Mozart also said that when he was writing symphonies, he says, there are times when it's, it's, it's like it's being given to me. It's already, it's there in my mind. And all that I'm doing is transcribing it.

So there are many examples like that, where people will say, I don't, you know, the nature of inspiration is something that comes from some higher force in the universe. I'm just a vehicle for this. And there are, there's research that was conducted by a Hungarian sociologist who just died last year.

His name was Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He wrote a book back in the 1990s, I believe, called Flow, F-L-O-W, Flow. Yes, it's a well-known book, yeah.

Yeah, called it War Peak Experience. And he sent researchers, I don't remember what university he was, out in the Midwest somewhere, Massachusetts, no, no, Chicago or something. Anyway, he sent researchers, just postdocs around the world, interviewing people, artists, poets, musicians, athletes, heads of corporations, and then lesser lights, you know, cheesemakers and gardeners and sherpas in the Himalayas.

I mean, just a whole range of humanity, thousands and thousands of individuals. And what he found was that what makes them happy, what makes people happy, that was his idea. He wanted to find out, is there something that makes everybody, no matter where they come from, what their economic status or their cultural background, is there something that makes everybody happy? What he found was, in the creative process, one can find happiness.

And what was interesting about this, everyone he talked to, all of his researchers said the same thing. They said, what makes me happy about doing what I'm doing is the process. Let me interview a painter.

The painting, look what I did, right? You can hang it, you can display it, you can put it in a gallery, you can publish it in a book, you can sell it, you can get it reviewed, you know, you make your reputation by the finished part. And the painter said, no, it's in the painting, in the process. And across the board, it was always like this.

There was a gold medal Olympic figure skater, can't remember her name, who said that when she was doing her gold medal performance, she said, I disappeared. The music took over. I was just kind of doing it.

So all of these people interviewed, they gave a similar description, that there was no ego in the work for them anymore. They felt like they were serving the experience of their music, their poetry, their gardening, their business, whatever it was, that they felt a certain timelessness to it, that it gave them great joy. And I say, wait a minute, this sounds familiar.

So I went to the Bhagavad Gita. And you know, those verses where Krishna describes Samadhi in the Bhagavad Gita? He says, in this state of Samadhi, there is no higher joy to be achieved. There's a sense of fulfillment, the same qualities as flow in his research around the world.

The point is that the true experience of satisfaction and joy in the creative act is one that is devoid of ego, where you're allowing God to work through you. But here's what's interesting about that. Most artists are terrible egotists.

They're the worst. They're so full of themselves. In my career, I've had a chance to work with some very famous artists, actors, and musicians.

A lot of them are really egotistical. You know, oh, look what I do. The best among them said, I felt so privileged to be allowed to help provide this.

That's a Vaishnav trait. It's a Vaishnav quality, that I have these skills, by God's grace, let me now engage them. That's beautiful.

So there are two distinct things then. One is that, actually, in one sense, the ego disappears. And at a small level, I think, everybody has had that experience when just get completely immersed in something.

And, but other level, just our ability to do something, something which others can't do, that can, that can, it's almost, you could say, a human vulnerability, universal human vulnerability to succumb to the ego. So if I put it this way, that only if one has Krishna consciousness, then actually, one can balance that, understand, not only not Krishna consciousness, Krishna consciousness, God consciousness, some understanding of God consciousness, you can balance, you could say, the weight of that talent, without getting inflated by it. Now, wonderful.

Thank you for saying it like that. That's the operative word is manage, managing. You don't destroy ego.

Krishna consciousness is not a negation of ego. It's a managing of the ego. You know, there's that verse in Patanjali's Yoga Sutra, Yogas Chittabhriti Nirodha.

The word Nirodha is often described as, you know, negating the Chittabhritis of the mind. A more informed translation of Nirodha would be to say, manage, to manage. Ego is the self, you can't destroy the self.

The material ego gets in the way, you have to manage that. And a really accomplished artist knows to take that ego, and sublimate it, channel it into the art, so that it's no longer about me. I've been given these skills.

This is my ego. This is my material toolbox. Now let me engage that.

It's a careful balance. And it takes a lot of practice, a lot of chanting, a lot of chanting. Come to the place where you're so comfortable with yourself as a human being.

I'm not talking about comfortable as a devotee. Comfortable with yourself as a human being. That I have had tragedies in my life, but they don't define me.

I'm something different. I have to tell you, Chittanyachara, when you and I have our conversations, I take the long view. I think about people 10, 20, 30, 50 years down the line, who may be listening to us discussing here.

And I try to feel compassion for them, because you and I know from our own experience, trying to be a devotee is hard work. It's not always pleasant. It's not always pleasant.

And today, a lot of devotees in ISKCON are from Hindu parents. They didn't ask for this. They didn't volunteer to become devotees.

That's how they were brought up. And very often, unfortunately, parents don't know how to raise their children in a very informed, Krishna conscious way. So I know from my own contact with the younger generations how difficult it is for them.

So when you and I talk, I think about the long view. I think about people who may be struggling with their own devotional life. They're trying to balance it.

They're trying to put it all together. It's so hard to do. I have these creative impulses, but then I think that's Maya.

That's one mistaken idea that people have, that all of that's Maya. It's a rejection. Rejection is just the opposite side of attraction.

It's not transcendental. It's still in the material realm. I have seen many times, even devotees, not devotees, authors in general, they often treat their literary products like a baby.

Every book is like a baby that has come. So in that sense, there's a very intimate bond between creativity and person. I was asking one senior devotee, you know, you've spoken so much on this topic, why don't you write on this topic? He said that, it was very striking.

I was in the early stages, I've been five, six years a devotee and I was just learning to write. He said, for me, writing on a topic is like marrying that topic. I can't just marry anyone.

It is very, you could say a non-functional, non-occupational way of looking at writing. I was struggling with that first day with me. Well, the creative process is also very threatening.

I've known some actors, some professional actors who would say things to me like, you know, getting up on stage was taking their life in their hands. I used to think, come on, what are you talking about? You're an actor, you're getting up on stage, you're acting. How is that life threatening? You know, what does a creative person do? Well, she's putting her creative art, her creative expression out there for the world to see.

That's what makes it so threatening. I mean, actors I've known who've said getting up on stage was taking their life in their hands. I never understood that thing until one professional actor said to me, you don't understand.

He said, if you're being a true actor, true to your craft, you're embodying that person on stage. And that means that through that part that you're playing, all of your own life experiences are coming out, your fears, your anxieties, your insecurities, your self-doubts, your bitterness, your anger, your hostility, your disappointments, the tragedies of your life. You're putting it out there for the world to see, the world to judge you by what you're doing on stage.

And then I began to understand that, for example, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his associates used to do plays. And then when they performed these plays, the audience would be weeping in tears. Prabhupada also said, when he was a young man, they were doing a devotional play.

I can't remember which part he performed. It was Chaitanya Leela. And he looked out in the audience and saw the people were crying.

It's because that's the heart and soul of the Bhakti tradition, is that you're recreating these transcendental emotions through the creative act. I think we have to distinguish between creativity as an expression of love and creativity as a commercial endeavor. I've known artists who were talented, but who chose to direct their talents for commercial purposes.

And that's fine. Everyone's entitled to eternal living. But I think you and I are talking about creativity in a different sense.

I think we're talking about creativity as a tool of self-awareness, a tool of reflecting the majesty of creation in creative art. Beautifully put, yeah. So, and again, taking that long view that there will be people who listen to your podcasts, and if we have something to offer them, something that will be of value to them, it would be to say, do not fear your own creative abilities.

Do not doubt them. Go deeper inside their meaning. Try to understand why they have been given to.

I once asked Srila Prabhupada, what is the meaning of art in Krishna consciousness? Who is an artist in Krishna consciousness? This was in Paris. He said, an artist is someone who puts something in its proper place for best utility. And I didn't understand what he meant.

So after a long discussion with him, I'm just summarizing it for you. It was clear that what he was saying was that each of us, every human being walking the planet, has some creative talent, some creative ability. And I suspect that it is that same creative energy, that God-given energy, that inspires some people to build a business, inspires other people to write a song, or paint a painting, and it can inspire others to create a family.

Beautiful. That creative act, when it's done in that spirit of, my dear Lord, I'm so grateful for this life that you've given. Let me offer something back to you.

Let me try to express to others the miracle of the life that you have created. That's like putting your finger in the wall socket. You can energize your creative abilities beyond whatever karmic limitations you might have had otherwise.

If there was no background cosmic spiritual reality, then everybody with some creative talent would be equally successful, equally famous, equally effective. That's not the case. There are other invisible forces at work.

And unless you're one of that handful of really gifted artists who comes along in the generation, who just, you are your art, you are your talent. That's very, very few. I wouldn't presume, I would hope nobody listening to this podcast presumes to be one of those people, one of the really greats.

Then we have to be a little more modest in our self-assessment and ask for help. I mean, what is chanting Hare Krishna if not asking for help? Please engage me in your service. So in other words, the bottom line is, if you'd like to be a better artist, chant, chant, chant.

Beautifully put. It's more not just a mechanical or even not mechanical. For us, it's not just art.

It's a, you could say it's an expression of the heart, a heart that wants to love Krishna. Then, so we may have a little ability, we may have a lot of ability, but our, we can go beyond our karmic limitations. That's an amazing way of looking at it.

So, you know, we've got three, four different perspectives on art right now. One is that, I mean, we discuss a lot, but I'm just trying to phrase it in a beautiful way that art is what bhakti is about. Once one is on the path, we express it through, express it through art.

Then we discuss also how art is, just now you mentioned this, that art is not just a, for us, art is not meant to be an expression of the ego. Actually, in one sense, it's a sublimation of the ego, what we mentioned earlier. Then just now mentioned about how art is meant and that there could be art as an expression of one's talent and art could be an expression of one's love.

These are amazing perspectives. And then right now I mentioned that art, when you try to do it in Krishna's service, it could be, it could take us far beyond what our normal capacities or normal karmic gifts could be. There's a lot to reflect.

But let me give you a personal example. Let me use myself as an example. You mentioned this at the beginning.

I've had a little success as a writer. I mean, if I had to put a number on it, my books have sold something like a half million copies. Most of them have been biographies of Holocaust survivors.

But do you see what's behind me? This altar here? It's Gornitai. I didn't have deities in my home until about eight months ago because my current book is a biography of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. And it was very clear to me that no matter what material skill I may have in writing biographies, there's no way that I can write a biography of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu without the grace of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

So I installed deities here in my home so that every morning I could throw myself at their feet and beg them, please give me the opportunity to glorify you by helping me to know how you would like your story told. How shall I tell your story? Mm hmm. So, I mean, I hope I'm smart enough now after, you know, 50 some odd years in Krishna consciousness to know the difference between a creative ability like writing applied to an assignment and a creative act that's trying to bring me closer to God.

So it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity for anyone who wants to be creative in whatever way, creative in sewing an outfit, creative in cooking, creative in managing a business, creative in IT, creative in accounting, creative in financial services, creative in whatever expression you have. You can bring something to that.

You can actually bring another dimension to whatever you're doing through that active prapati, that self-surrender, because then it opens up vistas, understandings of what you're doing that you cannot understand otherwise. You know, in Brahma Samhita, God is in every atom. What it means is the experiences of your life.

There's what you can understand of it just on the surface, but then inside it, there's God. There's God inside every moment of your life. Every effort that you make, if you have the vision to see God there, that becomes service, that becomes devotion.

Amazing. What an opportunity. What an opportunity Krishna consciousness is for every human being to make every creative act of their life blossom into love for God and through that love connection with every living being.

Sorry, I get a little carried away. I wish I could get carried away with you. What a beautiful vision.

This is, you know, I've been thinking that this is a very, sometimes I talk, use two words, maybe you could come up with better words. There could be like a, you could say an intensive practice of Krishna consciousness, and there could be like an inclusive or expansive practice of Krishna consciousness. By intensive, you mean chanting, deity worship, studying scriptures, going to holy places, like what we call the five potent forms of devotional service.

In one sense, we are directly connecting with Krishna. So if we consider, but there are many other ways to connect with Krishna also. And in fact, so we could now we could say, music is a part of kirtan and that direct connection, but like writing, art, literature, and all those things, those are also ways of connecting with Krishna.

And in fact, not only those every endeavor is a way of connecting with Krishna. You know, one section of the Gita, which we don't often talk about recently, I've been meditating and speaking on that is when Krishna talks about transforming one's work into worship. That is a theme which we don't talk about so much.

So in one sense, I was thinking, when you talk about the deities, there is a spiritual mercy for writing about Lord Chaitanya. And there is, you could say also, I don't like to use the word material because somehow we have the word material with a negative connotation, but the ability. So decades of training you have got, and then decades of training as an author, and now decades of training as a devotee.

So that you could say the Ganga and Yamuna are coming together now. And now you got the mercy of the deities. So that is like the Saraswati.

So your book on Lord Chaitanya will be like a Triveni Sangam. Your blessings. I look forward to reading it.

That's amazing. So what an extraordinary world that we've been invited into. It's incredible.

Universe, Krishna Consciousness. That's true. This is amazing.

And I mean, it's amazing how you expanded the horizons. Maybe we could come down to a little ground level of, say, we have a young devotee who started practicing bhakti. And how could they go about nourishing their creativity? Because in general, there is a lot of emphasis in the early stages, at least on conformity rather than creativity.

You know, do this, don't do this, do this, don't do this. And now this could be a big subject. But in some ways, at least in India, in our outreach, we have attracted a lot of young people.

But it's more, you could say, people from the engineering background, not so much from the art backgrounds. In the humanities, the art backgrounds, we're not focused, devotees are not focused much also on that area. But in general, how do we, how does on one side, a person with creativity, be a part of an organization that requires or a path that requires a certain level of conformity? And on the other side, as we as leaders in a movement, we know that we have certain standards which require certain level of conformity.

So how do we give space for creativity? We discussed this a little bit earlier, in terms of compassion, not conversion, but maybe with a focus on upcoming devotees, you would like to say some things? Well, first, I'm not an engineer. So I don't know what that experience is like. But from what I'm observing, the people in IT who make the greatest contributions are the ones who have the greatest imagination.

They look at a system, and they don't see only the inside of that system, they see its potential for expansion outside. They see its relationship with other systems. So they're making creative connections.

And it may be that there's a unifying theme across all levels of activity, that you can go deeper inside it, you can always go deeper inside the experience of something. But I think you're addressing a somewhat different point. I think what you're saying is, the ISKCON movement is a very structured environment.

So how do we make room for creativity inside that structure? Am I understanding you correctly? That's beautifully put. Yeah. All right.

I was talking with one devotee, he was saying that even the prayers are so structured. I can't even express creative other ways. I can't even pray to Krishna in my own way.

So I explained that there are personal prayers also. And but it does, structured is a very good word for it. Conformity has a little negative connotation, but structured is a much better word over there.

Yeah. Well, conformity is structure taken to an extreme. I mean, I think there are some people who require conformity because they find some kind of comfort.

You know, it's a very threatening world out there. And there's shelter in numbers, you might say. If you become invisible by becoming part of a group where you don't stand out, then maybe nothing will hurt you because I'm protected by the institution or protected by being a part of a community.

And that's fine initially, but you've got to grow up someday. It's not bad. You know, in my old age, I've come to appreciate the conservative elements within ISKCON.

They're there to protect best practices, to preserve the tradition, to make sure that wild-eyed liberals like me don't rock the boat too hard. And that's important. That's important.

You know, you can't take such creative liberties that you threaten the very foundation of the thing that you're trying to represent. That's not a good idea. So that structure, if you will, the conservative element, that's important to the strength of the edifice itself.

But that can't be the only thing. Otherwise, we'll become anachronistic, we'll become stuck in time, we'll never grow, we'll never change. And just like that quote I gave you from Krishna Chetraswamy, we are at a moment in time now, 56 years since the beginning of our movement, where we are compelled by our time in history to revisit every one of the assumptions we've made about what is Krishna consciousness and consider its application in this ever-evolving world around us.

Otherwise, we're going to become irrelevant. You know, I don't know if I ever told you this. I used to have an office in the Empire State and on the 56th floor.

And there were times in strong winds when you felt the building moving. You actually felt the building moving. And I looked into it and it was explained to me that when the architects built the Empire State Building, they made a composite metal skeleton that had flexibility built into it, because they knew at those heights, the wind would shake the building, would push it.

And if they did not incorporate flexibility into the steel structure, it would crack and the building would collapse. Flexibility is inherent to strong structure. It's not the enemy of strong structure.

It is the enhancement that makes strength what it is. The same is true with an institution as much as with a building. You have to include a degree of flexibility.

Otherwise, it's going to break. It's going to dissolve in the passage of time. The way you put it is very nice.

That flexibility is not just a necessity, but it's also intrinsic. It's not like a circumstantial adjustment for survival. It is flexibility that builds strength.

You also say that the trees that bend don't break. Bending is a little bit of a negative connotation. We don't want to bend.

But I think it's also a metaphor for a river. A river doesn't stick to one path. It moves round and round, but keeps moving forward.

So that flexibility to go around, to find a way ahead is what keeps it going. There's some controversy in our society because certain cultures around the world, I mean, this kind of represents every country in the world, every culture in the world. Some of them are more traditional than others.

It's understandable that certain collections of people will want to adhere firmly to tradition. Tradition is what makes us comfortable. It's what's familiar.

It's what's worked in the past. It is who we are. You don't want to see that change.

It's kind of an emotional issue for me. I lost my mother last year. Part of the grief of that for me is that she represented a world that has disappeared.

The world that I grew up in, it was a world where there were certain givens about democracy and the democratic process. There were certain givens, dependable elements to journalism. I grew up in the time of Walter Cronkite and McNeill Lair, real journalists.

I don't see much real journalism today. I see a lot of reporting. I see a lot of aggregated news.

I don't see much real journalism. There was a time when you could leave your door open. We were kids in my building in midtown New York City, in our building, a 15-story apartment building.

We left our doors open. Come into people's homes because we were all friends. It was like one big family.

You can't leave them. You wouldn't dare leave your apartment door open. No, you wouldn't dare leave your car door unlocked today.

There was a time when I was raised in a liberal democratic Jewish family. We had friends who were Christian Republicans. Their kids went to the same school that I went to and we got together for picnics or whatever, family dinners or holidays.

You could have discussions about differences of opinion. There wasn't anything like the hostility. There wasn't any of this deadly vitriol, this bitterness and utter cutthroat.

It's so embarrassing just to think about it. Part of the grief of my loss of my mother was this. Sorry, I just wanted to maybe this could be a subject which could be separately explored but one thing I felt through is that even India is happening.

In some ways, politics is becoming like an alternative religion for people. That's why it's not just you have a different opinion. It's not just you're wrong.

You are evil. That's where it goes to. I think you put your finger on it.

That's a betrayal of tradition. That's not a respect for tradition. This is what people don't understand.

When you try to adhere so tenaciously, so fanatically to tradition, you betray your tradition. If you look back and you study your tradition, you will see that it is something that evolved over time. The thing that you're remembering, the thing that makes you comfortable, oh yes, when we did it like this.

Go back a few generations. That's not how it was done. There's been an evolution over time and it's a constant evolution.

Tradition too, like people, grow and change. The unwillingness to accept that is the cause of war. The unwillingness to accept that I have to revisit my own faith.

If we're ever going to see a peaceful world, I have to be the change. There's a famous Gandhi quote like that. There's also a quote from Carl Jung, the psychologist, who said, what if the greatest of offenders, what if those who need to change the most end up being me? I think it's a sign of maturity, both psychically and spiritually, to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and say, okay, where can I improve? Where can I do better? Where am I being, where am I the victim of my own fears? Carl Jung said something similar in other contexts that he said, modern man cannot see God because doesn't bend low enough or look down low enough.

That means his point was that we don't look at the darkest parts inside us and just focus on other things. We think that we have a self congratulatory vision of ourselves sometimes. So we're just trying to connect this.

How are we? We discussed about, if I understand right, the flow is, I'd asked about, there is a structured environment in which bhakti is practiced in our organization, and a structure taken too far becomes conformity. And then now you're talking about when conformity is being imposed too strongly by someone, that could be because of their own insecurity. That's because what is it that I need to fix? Is that where the direction is going? Yeah, you're right.

The connection is there's nothing wrong. If you want to be a traditionalist, if you want to be a conservative, if you wish to be, you know, an upholder of tradition, if you want to take that, you know, right of center position, fine, wonderful. God bless you for protecting what is valuable about our heritage.

But don't be your own worst enemy. Don't be so entrenched about what it is that you're trying to defend, that you end up being the one who hurts it. Okay.

So we're talking about giving space for people who need to be creative, that don't be so traditionalist, you can be a traditionalist, but don't impose that on others. You may not like it. But that doesn't mean that it has no value in the universe of devotional service.

Don't think that your standards are so high and mighty that the whole world has to think like you. Who are you to set the standard for the whole world? What do you know, you're entitled to your position. And it's the beauty of Krishna consciousness that it's so flexible, that it can include even, you know, stubborn heads like yours.

We often talk about principles and details. Sometimes the word detail becomes a little, you could say, non specific, what, how do we understand what it is? So one way I try to elaborate details is, is preferences. You know, there are certain principles which are inviolable.

But there are many things in Krishna consciousness, which are personal preferences. And then we try to make the preference. Okay, like somebody may say that prayer should be offered only by singing Vaishnav songs.

You should not compose your own prayers. Well, maybe that is the way your heart connects with Krishna. But that doesn't necessarily mean everybody's heart will connect with Krishna in that way.

So praying to Krishna Vandanam is a principle. But how a particular person finds their heart connecting with best with Krishna, you could say that is a preference. So just because somebody is say composing their own prayers, not for everyone to sing, but just for themselves to offer to the Lord, that shouldn't make somebody who's a little more conservative, feel insecure or label the other, they shouldn't label the other person as a deviant.

No, appreciate it. Appreciate what they're doing. They're expressing their love for Krishna in their own way.

Why should you object to that? Oh, it's not up to the standard. Well, heck with you. Go live with your standard in a closet somewhere.

We have to be able to, it's a big world. Our whole mission, we're driven, we're compelled by our Krishna consciousness. To feel love for every living being, compassion for the struggles they go through, and to cultivate our ability to encourage them.

That's your gift. Your gift is how you can encourage others to serve. So it may not be your taste.

Okay. You think that Prabhupada came here and everything was to his taste? If everything had to be his taste in order for him to stay and continue his movement, he would have gone back to India after day one. He's the ultimate example of someone who was able to embrace everybody.

There was one guy named Green. I know he had the same name as mine. He was a modernist composer.

He used to come to the 26th Second Avenue Temple. Then he had a concert once somewhere in New York City. And he invited Prabhupada to come.

So the concert was him jumping up and down on the strings inside the piano keyboard and hitting the keys with his fist. And one of these kind of very performance art things. Prabhupada sat through the whole thing.

And then at the end of the concert, this guy came up to Prabhupada and said, very nice. I mean, it's like ridiculous. But he was offering encouragement.

He was offering encouragement. Does it cost you so much that you have to condemn you can't encourage somebody? Come on. Okay.

That's beautiful. I'll give you one last story and then we'll say goodbye. I might have told you this story already.

I was with Prabhupada in his room at Bhaktivedanta Manor. And there was a reception for the neighbors in that part of London, the suburbs of London. And there was a stage and there was a rock band playing rock and roll music, Rolling Stones, whatever.

And the music was coming right in Prabhupada's window. And I asked him, is this okay with you? He stood up and he went to the window and he looked down on the stage on the lawn out back and all this rock and roll music, literally rock and roll, straight up rock and roll. And he said, are they going to chant Hare Krishna? I said, yeah, I think that's the idea is that they're attracting people with all the rock and roll stuff and then they'll play the Mahamantra.

He said, that's okay. No big deal. No big deal.

That's okay. And I said, well, how is it you closed the roadshow? There had been a traveling roadshow with a couple of buses and again, electric instruments. And it was all plays about Krishna consciousness.

I said, you stopped the roadshow. How is it that you're okaying this rock and roll stuff? He said, no, I stopped the roadshow because it wasn't being properly managed. You know, they were so much into the performance, they were forgetting their spiritual practice.

So he was somebody for everything. Beautiful. Okay.

So you could also say from this incident, beautiful incident, but say one principle that even if something was say, not done during Prabhupada's times, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a mandate that that should not never be done. Maybe it was a circumstantial that that was not the right time to do it. Yeah.

This you and I have talked about before. Yeah. We should never make the mistake of thinking that the only thing that can be done is something that Prabhupada did.

That's the biggest mistake that you could ever make. Prabhupada with 12 years was his mission, right? How could he do everything in the world? He wanted us to go further than he did. That was his whole mission was to expand on, to find new applications.

There was no internet. There was no personal computers. Does that mean we shouldn't use them just because Prabhupada never did? It's the real.

So that would mean that that on one side, the devotees who are leading, they need to give some space for those who are creative. And another point is that the creative devote, inclined devotees should not, you can should not feel hesitant or guilty. I mean, they're trying to express their creativity, even if it in small ways for serving Krishna.

I mean, the test will be if while you are pursuing your creative talents and interests, you're not compromising your spiritual. You're able to maintain your spiritual life. That's a good hint.

Good clue. If you want to know whether you're doing the right thing, is what I'm doing compromising me spiritually? And if it's not, then pursue it. See where it leads you.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Give it a try. See what happens.

Wonderful. That's the kind of spirit which Prabhupada used in, you could say, sharing Krishna Consciousness all over the world. He himself went to America, he sent his disciples to various parts of the world.

So you could say that that same spirit, which is applied in the physical domain, that now we apply more in the artistic domain. How many really we say, for example, how many of us have composed poetry in our movement in English, for example, bhakti poetry. There's so much that can do.

It's a beautiful metaphor to sign off with. It brings the adventurousness of Krishna Consciousness into the creative domain also. Absolutely.

Go for it. Go for it. This is Krishna Consciousness.

Go for it. You've got nothing to lose. But just don't forget your spiritual practices.

Beautiful. So let me try to summarize if it's okay. And then I summarize briefly in between.

But you talked about creativity in bhakti, nurturing, or not just nurturing, it was like, how do we first see creativity in bhakti? And then if you consider trajectory, philosophy is essential initially to get us on the path, get us moving. But once we are moving, it's all about poetry, art, drama, music, dance, song. And that's where the heart is expressed.

And we have so many, we have so many artistic, we could say, acharyas, Kavi Karanapur and Rupa Goswami, Vinju Goswami himself also. So then, in that connection, you talked about your interactions with Prabhupada. This is something which you have spoken many times, Loka Pramana and Shastra Pramana.

And Prabhupada, in one sense, Prabhupada appreciated you reading and you had a natural attraction toward that. And then you have used it both in your professional life as well as now you're using devotional life also for writing many books. So in general, if we look at creativity, it is a gift from Krishna.

And in one sense, it's creativity is act of being, it's being with the creator in a sense, being a channel for the creator. So then, in that sense, a very Krishna conscious, very God conscious, Krishna conscious activity. But there are two ways.

One is that when people who are in that zone, in that flow, they realize it's a state of, I disappear, as you said, disappointingly quoting that artist. So but it could also be that those people afterwards or later, they have a huge ego. So for us, the challenge would be that we are not going to dissolve or destroy the ego, but we want to use what we have in Krishna service.

It is not a, it is not building our ego, it is not breaking our ego. It's more like link offering our ourselves, our being to Krishna. Very nice.

So then we can see also that when we are trying to serve Krishna, who knows, Krishna can give or take our artistic ability beyond what we normally have, what we karmically have. Yes, yes. Then we talked about how you are writing a book on Mahaprabhu and look forward to that.

Now all your lifelong writing literary skills now are perfected in Lord Chaitanya's service. In the latter half, we discussed a spiritual movement. At one level, creativity means vulnerability.

We're putting ourselves out there. You don't know how things will perform, things will manifest, how people respond. So it is difficult.

And that same insecurity may come in a spiritual tradition also where we start fearing. Oh, this has not been done. How will this work out? So the individual themselves may fear or the leaders may fear creative expressions, because there is a certain level of structure and conformity that is required.

But that conformity should not suppress and in that connection, we need to meet people where they are at and engage them creatively. We have the example of how Prabhupada and the devotees work with George Harrison. He did it at his own pace.

And he wrote extraordinary poems, glorifying songs, songs about the spiritual world and songs about Krishna. So rather than forcing it, we need to just facilitate it gently. You know, maybe we could have another podcast on your experiences of how Prabhupada dealt with George Harrison.

When you're talking about it, I thought we could go in that direction, but then it would have been a different subject. With that, you should talk to Shyam Sundar. He's the man.

But you wrote a biography in one sense. You are also immersed in it. Yeah.

So then after that, we discussed about when we are. So there is, to some extent, faithfulness and conformity is required, no doubt. Following tradition is required.

But at the same time, when we are, we also mean compassion means that we don't want to just convert people to our way. It's more of manifesting or realizing or unveiling of who they already are. So rather than being too insecure, there's a preference.

I may like to do things in a particular way. I like to offer only scriptural prayers. Others want to do other things.

Let me give them space for that. And in this way, devotees can, as you said, go for it. What is there to lose as long as we keep ourselves spiritually connected? Go for it.

Yes. I love that metaphor, actually. What you brought about that? It's adventure in the creative domain.

It's like there's adventure in physical travel, there's adventure in artistic travel. In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says, I am victory and adventure. Yes.

What a pleasure to talk with you. It's such a delight to. Thank you very much for sparing your time.

I look forward to have many more discussions with you in future. Me too. Thank you.