Empower your preaching 1 | Understand the audience | Brahmachari class | Mumbai, Chowpatty
Are there any other questions? Hare Krishna.
Hare Rama. Hare Rama. Rama Rama.
Hare Hare. My dear Lord, please guide us all. As we learn.
How to see the world through the eyes of your words. Hare Krishna. So I am very thrilled to be here.
With all of you today. And. Since this is a topic on preaching.
I would like to start by. Asking you. When we talk about.
Say current affairs. Or current. And I won't use current affairs.
And I am not just going to restrict it to. Some event that comes up in the news. And stays for some time.
Current affairs can mean many different things. But. I would like to start by.
Asking you. About your understanding. Or your experience.
Many of you may be engaged in. Preaching at different levels. How the changes in the current world.
Affect us. When we are preaching. If you are trying to share Krishna Bhakti.
And you have probably been there. For 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. We observe.
People. The kind of people who come. So basically.
How does the world. Affect our. Events in the world.
Or changes in the world. How does the world affect our own. I don't want to necessarily a philosophical answer.
But just some experience of yours. How the kind of people who are coming. The thoughts of people.
You have observed it changing. I hope my question is clear. So.
Yes. Ok. I will elaborate the question.
So. How changes. In the world.
Affect our preaching. One simple example I will give. Previously.
When I was into 96. The internet was not there at all. So.
In a weak word. Count on people's ignorance. For them to accept our version of things.
People don't know anything. So ok. We seem to speak the reality.
We quote Shastra and people accept it. But now everything that we speak. People can immediately Google and cross check.
That doesn't mean Google is necessarily the right answer. But the point is. We can no longer rely on people's ignorance.
So. That has an effect. Certain statements.
Which we might have quoted. Like say the idea that. Dale Carnegie.
How to influence people. He committed suicide. Why.
He himself had no friends and he committed suicide. I have heard it. I have quoted it.
Have any of you heard this? Yeah. But that's just not true. There is another person who wrote a caricature of his book.
How to lose friends and alienate people. That person committed suicide. So the person who quoted.
As far as I know. There is a website also. Quote investigation.
So this particular. Anecdote seems to come from. Ravi Shankar.
He quoted it for the first time. Dale Carnegie committed suicide. So now.
He might have heard it from someone. But in the public domain that has come from there. So in the past.
Something new. So we could rely on people's ignorance. To accept our authority.
But we can no longer do that. I was. I gave a whole class on this topic recently.
Amira wrote. In Delhi. In the Dwarka temple over there.
That one boy came to me and he said that. He was preaching. Based on our DYS course.
And he said that. My whole faith. Is shaken now.
Not only in the preaching but in the philosophy also. He said we quoted that. Based on embryology.
That in the third canto. The embryology description is so precise. That.
The child in the womb suffers and. There are worms which bite the child. Now.
Medical science is certain. That there are never any worms in the womb. The worms.
Are in the intestine. Not in the womb. Shastra wrong.
Now. In the past. We would have straight away accepted this.
But now people challenge. So he said. I was giving this class.
And one boy who was giving this class in America. And in the class. He said.
This is so strong. There is no evidence of worms in the womb. Generally there are no worms in the womb.
But in extreme diseases. The infection becomes more. Worms are in the intestine.
From there sometimes they can go to the womb. So there is an answer to that. But the point is.
That this is one significant change. That we could make statements. And many of our statements would go unchallenged.
Now people have resources to challenge. That doesn't necessarily mean people have become wiser. It just means.
That. We cannot expect the same level of submissiveness. In accepting our version.
So. My answer to him was that. The Bhagavatam.
It is giving a specific incident. That is being described. It is not necessarily a universal principle.
Prabhupada says for example. The child cries. The nurse gives him bitter medicine.
And he is just hungry. Now does it happen to every child. When the child is crying.
The nurse will give bitter medicine. Some children never have a nurse at home. Only mother is there.
So what is described is a possibility. Is it a possibility? It is a possibility. But when we claim it is a universality.
Then we run into problems. So anyway that is one example. It could be an extreme example.
But my point is that. As the times are changing. As the way people think.
The way people have resources. Those are changing. So.
So I am trying to build up on the topic. Now why do we at all need to respond to current times. And current issues in current times.
So that is what I am asking. Have you experienced any changes? The deprivity and the degradation in the modern society. In very recent times.
Very recent times. Like last 3-4 years. Right.
Supposedly the deprivity and the degradation. In the modern society. Can you give an example.
The way the opposite gender dresses. Which was limited to the silver screens. But now it is.
You know everywhere evident. Like those are dressing in. Little questionable ways.
Which was not the case a few years back. Which is like agitating to the senses. So in one sense.
One part of me says that. There is no point living in this material world. Because you have to.
Control your senses. Focus on Krishna. And then we are also supposed to preach.
To preach means you have to. Connect to them. And when you connect to them.
There is such negative energy. One devotee was. He shared with me a video.
That video was about. What is the current. Youth thinking.
So there is a video called. Nothing except everything. So basically the idea of the video.
Is that there is no meaning to anything. The more you think. The more you will get lost.
Better just enjoy everything. So the confidence with which. These people are.
Believing in that philosophy. And living a reckless life. Cheap gifts.
For yourself. And then. You know.
You have to be really strong. To remain steady yourself. Yeah so.
You could say. The kind of people we encounter. Are much more challenging.
That is definitely a truth. Just to give the other side of the story. When I started going abroad.
And I saw. Even devotee women. Who sometimes dress in.
Not exactly provocative ways. But still revealing. Clothes.
So I was talking with the Amit Maharaj. And talking with some other devotees. In western outreach.
So basically for them. When they do that. It could be many reasons.
But one of them is. It's their desire for autonomy. It's not necessarily that they want to agitate others.
Who are you to tell me how I should dress. That they want autonomy. And second is also.
It is nature. Who has given men. More power.
At the level of physique. And women have been given power. At the level of beauty.
If men are going to express their power. Why should women not express their power. So they see it as.
Autonomy and empowerment. So it's like. From their perspective.
They don't see it as degradation. But how they see it. Is that we are being empowered.
And. Is it a. Perverse mentality. We cannot connect with that mentality.
As long as we think it is a perverse mentality. So. Is there a desire to.
Attract. Men desire women. And women desire.
Men have the desire of men. So. The more a woman sees.
A man is attracted to. That gives her a sense of power. So now the Vedic tradition was.
Both men and women. Have to curtail their powers. So men have to use their power.
For protection. Not domination or exploitation. Similarly women have to curtail their power.
So it is true. This is a challenge. Recently there was a proposal.
In a temple. In the ICC. That we should have a dress code.
For people who come to the temples. But then the problem is. That how are we going to impose the dress code.
And then. Are we going to send people away. Especially young people are coming to the temples.
Do you want to stop coming to the temples. Most likely. See many Indians.
Are religious. And some of the religious instinct is still there. But often they are religious.
And they are philosophically agnostic. That means. They want to come to a temple.
But which temple they go to doesn't matter. It is not always called temple that. Things are rising.
Every temple young people are coming. So if we impose a dress code. All that is going to happen is.
Young people go to other temples. So it is very difficult. But yeah I agree with this particular point that.
So there is. When people are behaving. In a particular way.
It is important that we. Understand. Why they are behaving that way.
Now that may be problematic from our perspective. And we are not giving up their perspective. See understanding someone is not agreeing with someone.
But. Sarvopadhi vinur muktam. When we say.
Give up all designations. Actually we. When we give up all designations.
Give up all labels. We have labels for everything. This is a deviant.
This is degraded. This is like this. This is like that.
So we reduce people to labels. Now I have seen in the yoga circle. Many of the women who come.
They are physically attractive. They are fit. They wear also revealing clothes.
But in the western audience I have seen. They are among the most seriously interested people. Now of course we cannot cultivate them.
We can give some classes. We need somebody else to cultivate them. But the point is that.
Their material. Appearance. Is not necessarily.
A spiritual disqualification. Or not even a sign of spiritual. Lack of interest.
So I was at an interfaith conference. In Washington DC. And there is.
This is a common problem in the Christian church. One Catholic pastor was saying that. Catholic priest.
They are protestant pastors. Catholic priest was saying that. They deal with this issue.
Of how to have a dress code. Because in the church. You don't want people.
Coming in revealing dresses. So the way they resolve it. Is that they say.
We should have. A dress code for everyone. Not just women.
So the idea is that. They say that everybody. This is a sacred space.
And to respect the sanctity of this space. Everybody should. When they come here.
Should be in this particular area. That they should be covered. From the shoulders.
To the knees. At least. And they apply it to males and females.
And then. Women don't object so much. Once you make a dress code for a particular gender.
Then it becomes a gender issue. So now I had proposed this. And then.
Everybody said. The upper body gets exposed. So it's not.
We can't simply apply that. My point is that. Sometimes.
When we observe people doing a particular thing. Now with. Regarding your point also of.
People just saying that there is no meaning to life. It is because. We are fed up.
With others telling them what is the meaning of life. This is what you are meant to do in your life. And it's not.
Something which is. As necessary. A sign of degradation.
It is a sign of. People. Wanting.
Their own autonomy. Now within bhakti can autonomy be given. To a certain extent it can be given definitely.
But. This is a good example. We will try to address that in due course more.
Now quite often. What we think of as degradation. Is not necessarily.
A degradation. From within their world view. Any other points.
Yes. Liberalisation. And free speech.
Is being given a lot more importance. And people are executing it now. So by that.
It's good that they are able to express themselves. At the same time. It's good that they are independently.
Thinking over the topics. But by that. They are.
They cannot be bound to the. Philosophy. Or a teacher.
And they carve out their own philosophy. And if that is not. If something is told to them.
It feels like something is imposed upon me. And they. Try to go away from that.
So this is. They become more restless. This liberalisation.
Give them more of. Restlessness. They don't hold upon anything.
Yes. That is true. One of the changes is that.
What you said is degradation. I find that word. Very judgemental.
But you could say that. But it's an expression of autonomy. Now.
The. Thing you said is that. They don't like imposition.
So there is a. Joke among Christian preachers. You know that. That interfaith meeting.
It was very revealing. Because. Anuttama Prabhu has been doing this for 10-15 years.
And all the. It was a Hindu. Vishnu Christian interfaith meeting.
So all these people who were there. They were all very vulnerable. They were expressing their topic was.
Reaching to a post-modern audience. So it is all of them where. From the Christian perspective.
What are their challenges. In trying to reach out to you. And some of our devotees were also sharing their challenges.
So he said that. I had gone to a radio show. It was a wrong time to go.
And he said. I am a Christian. But I don't go to any church.
And then he said. The preacher asked very cautiously. Respectfully.
Can I know why you don't go to church? I haven't yet found a church. That agrees with my philosophy. So.
Lot of people today. They want to think for themselves. Now.
They can think for themselves. That is a different issue. If you tell them you can't think for themselves.
Then they will never think about you. They will just reject you right from the beginning. So.
There is. One of the differences. The eastern society.
Is generally very hierarchical. The western. Is much more egalitarian.
Although there is a hierarchy. But it is much more horizontal. Rather than vertical.
And. Our conventional way of reaching. Is very hierarchical.
And that is why. We are successful. In areas where the culture is hierarchical.
In India we are successful. In Russia we are quite successful. In Ukraine we are hugely successful.
In China also. Although Hinduism itself is illegal. But in spite of that.
We are doing some level and getting some outreach. So. Where the mainstream society is hierarchical.
Our way of presenting bhakti. Works very well. But wherever.
The way becomes more egalitarian. More horizontal. And less vertical.
We are just not able to resist. We are not able to have an impact. So.
When. When Radhakumar. Wrote the journey home book.
He had given me an advance copy. He had already written some books before. He said, what do you think about this? So I read it.
I said, Maharaj. The stories were thrilling. What struck me the most was the tone.
You are not right. You are speaking like a guru. Speaking like a disciple.
Sharing experience with other friends. So Maharaj said that this is the. This is the tone.
That you need for western outreach. And as India has also become westernised. We will also need this tone.
For speaking in India. So the point is that. It's not that.
There is no respect. It's not that the west is a culture of disrespect. But the thing is.
Respect. It cannot be assumed. Respect has to be earned.
That means. You have this PhD degree. Or you are the leader of this institution.
Or you are so and so. That's why. Especially.
If you are a religious institution. And you are a head of a religious institution. In India.
If you come to know somebody is a mathalipati. There will be some respect for that. But it's almost as if.
If you have. A position of authority. That makes you an object of suspicion.
Not trust. Especially if it's a religious organisation. Organised religion people have a lot of.
Hesitation about that. In the entire journey home. Maharaj uses the word ISKCON only once.
While introducing Prabhupada. As the founder of ISKCON. Maharaj never mentions.
That I ever joined ISKCON. So Maharaj has positioned himself. As a spiritual leader.
For western outreach. Not as a leader of ISKCON. It's a subtle.
But a very significant position. So authority. Respect is there.
It is people will respect. But respect has to be earned. Now what you know.
How much wisdom you have. How you walk your talk. Through all that.
Respect has to be earned. And it is very difficult for those. Who live in a vertical culture.
They assume a certain level of respect. And of course they also have to earn it. But there is a starting point.
Where there is an assumption of respect. But that starting assumption of respect. Itself becomes a problem.
We have broadly three ages. The pre-modern age. The modern age.
And the post-modern age. So in the pre-modern age. Whether it is India or the west.
Or the middle east. There scripture was the authority. Everybody accepted scripture.
Whether it is a Quran or Bible or Old Testament. Or Vedas. Scripture was accepted as authority.
In the modern times. Science was the authority. So the idea of a soul.
Is it scientific? The idea of God. Is it scientific? But the west. The west largely is in the post-modern times.
I have done probably 700 programmes of western outreach. But nobody has ever asked me. To do a session on scientific evidence for the existence of soul.
Scientific evidence for the existence of God. People don't care. It is in the post-modern times.
Experience is the authority. Personal experience. Does this work? So the soul.
Maybe it exists. But the idea of a soul. How does it matter to me? How does it add value to my life? So experience is what works.
So you can say. India is almost like. All these three.
India is in all. Different parts of India are in all these three stages. There are parts of India which are still pre-modern.
Just you quote Ramayana. You quote Bhagavad Gita. This is what I told Shastra.
You should do this. I am not talking about devotees. General pious people also.
There is much of India. I would say. A large part of rural India.
Is in the pre-modern ages. The small cities in India. The towns in the small cities.
Where just now. Systematic education is going place. I was in Hyderabad.
One devotee. He is doing tribal outreach. He told me that he went to some remote villages in Odisha.
To distribute Bhagavad Gita. And they said in the school. Bhagavad Gita is the only textbook they have now.
So they are teaching people. English, History, Geography. Everything based on Bhagavad Gita.
School but no textbooks. And they said if you are not given the Bhagavad Gita. We are going to use a Bible.
Because we have a Bible over there. Somebody has gone and distributed Bible over there. There are parts of India.
Which are very remote even now. So the thing is. There are parts of India in pre-modern times even now.
So there are parts of India in modern times. Where the scientific ethos is slowly going. But much of.
Say Mumbai, Delhi. Bangalore. Hyderabad.
Metropolitan cities. Much of them are in the post-modern. So.
Science really doesn't matter so much. It is important. But it is not the most important thing.
People are interested in technology. Technology as a means. Of making life easier.
People use that. But science as a tool. For determining the truth.
For evaluating what is real. And what is not real. Not many people.
Consider that as very important. There are but not many. So if it.
The pre-modern, modern and post-modern. All these three ethos are there. So what you are talking about.
Is largely post-modern ethos. Where people feel that. This is based on my experience.
This is what has worked for me. And this is what has worked for me. If anybody else challenges that.
Then. They just either oppose that. Or they reject that.
So that's because. What happens is that. Everybody needs some shelter.
And somebody may. Be in the cold. And they have a thin.
Tall. Little tattered blanket. They have that blanket.
Around them. That is giving them some relief from the cold. Now if we.
Go and give up that blanket. I will give you a fake comforter. They will not accept.
So for people. Whatever is the world view. That they have right now.
That has given them. Some way of making sense of life. And if we.
Challenge their world view. In wanting them to reject that world view. That's like telling.
We are trying to take away. That tall tattered blanket from them. They will fight with their life.
So somehow. While they are having that. Tall tattered blanket.
We need to put the comforter around them. And when they experience. The.
This is so soothing. So comforting. This is so warm.
This is good. Do I need that tattered cloth? They will give it away. So it's.
Generally. Generally. Philosophy.
I have found it. Very very difficult. Although I use logic.
And I like logic. But I have found it very difficult. To actually convince people.
Solely at the level of logic. It is. People need a warm.
Uplifting experience. This is where I see. Radhanath Maharaj is a genius.
He said. Basically. We had been taking these western people.
For a tour. And there was one black boy. Who had come with us.
So he. While he was going along. We had a class on Prabhupada.
He googled Prabhupada. And he found Prabhupada's statements on blacks. And some of them are very provocative.
He got extremely agitated. So Shamanbhu talked with him. I talked with him.
We tried to explain from different perspectives. But. He was just not excited.
But then he came here. He attended the Pushpavachi festival. He heard Maharaj's class.
He said. I felt so enriched. The enrichment that I have experienced.
There must be something right in what you people are doing. And. He said.
I am ready to put aside. What Prabhupada said about blacks. If.
The followers of this Swami. Can. Can create such a wonderful atmosphere.
Then there must be something that. This Swami must have got right. So now people say.
This is far from accepting Prabhupada as an authority. Or the founder Acharya as an authority. But.
It's experience that actually. Transforms people's hearts. So.
In our own tradition also. So certainly. A certain level of logic.
And argumentation is required. To open people. To even try out the experience.
But it is experience that. Makes people decide. So.
When. The eco valley started. When some western people started coming.
So. Maharaj specifically told devotees. Don't tell anyone to chant Hare Krishna.
So when he first time saw. A western Mataji. With a wheel bag.
Maharaj actually went and asked her. Did anyone tell you to get this wheel bag? She said no. Actually I just saw everyone doing this.
I asked them what they were doing. I felt like getting one myself. Maharaj was very happy with it.
He said that. We want to give people. A welcoming.
Experience. And let them. Make the decision.
So it is difficult. It is quite different from the way. We have.
Ourselves been introduced. And the way we have been trained. To train others.
And I don't say that. All of India. All of India has become post modern.
Much of India is still. At the modern level. Authorities accept it.
But authorities still accept it. But this is a truth. And it requires.
It is a very different approach. To outreach that is required. That's a valid point.
Yes sir. You were saying about. Is more.
Indian is like more. So you mean to say. Like a teacher and a disciple.
Something like that. In a western country. We do have our tutors.
So why we don't see. Their hierarchy. Well.
First of all. In India we refer to our boss. Or teacher by sir.
In the west people use the first name. For even their teachers. So it is more informal.
Of course. Without authority structure. Nothing will work in life.
There is authority. And subordinate is there. But see.
Even Indians who go to America. They would much more prefer. To work in a company.
Started by an American. Than a company started by an Indian. Because what happens is.
Indians. They demand the kind of work culture in India. In America.
If your boss. Calls you on a weekend. The first thing the boss will say.
I am sorry to disturb you on a weekend. In India you cannot imagine. A boss saying.
I am sorry. The boss will say. I called you.
Why didn't you pick up the phone. You should be 24 by 7. So. So.
So. There the ethos. There is a very.
I was advised when I started going to the west. There is a book called Working with Indians. That is written by an American.
Software man. Software manager. He said that he worked in a team with Americans and Indians.
And. He said that there were so many. Miscommunications.
Misunderstandings. And both sides were treating each other. Either incompetent or irresponsible.
But. He said it's just a different culture. So for example.
In India. Say there is an American boss. Indian boss.
And there is an Indian subordinate. American subordinate. And say there is a project in a particular field.
Where the subordinate is actually the expert in that field. The boss may not be the expert in that particular field. So he said if the boss makes a particular statement.
Which is wrong. The American subordinate. Will politely.
But promptly say. Sir. Actually it's like this.
Very polite. But Indian subordinate can't even dream of correcting the boss. The project may go.
And face a lot of trouble. But you cannot show your boss. In bad light.
It's like India is said to be a. Face saving. Eastern cultures. Are very much face saving cultures.
Nothing is as important. As making sure. That the.
Respectable face. Of a respectable person. Is protected.
So if a subordinate. Corrects a boss in public. That boss will make the.
Life of the subordinate. Hell for the rest of the life. So now this.
So what he says is. Let's say. If I want that subordinate to speak.
I cannot even tell the subordinate. Do you have anything to say? He will still not say. I have to call his boss in advance.
And that boss has to tell the subordinate. In this meeting feel free to speak your mind. Only then you will speak.
So there is definitely a difference. Ultimately some level of hierarchy. Has to be there.
Otherwise without authority. Things will not work. But.
It is not the same. There is a huge difference. Am I making myself clear the difference? So.
Yeah. Go ahead. When it comes to the same topic.
Follow up question with respect to authority. So. Should there be any.
At what stage. The Indian culture of authority. Shall be implemented in the.
Preaching in. Post modern culture. Or will it be automatically.
Embedded by. Them as a type of authority. That's a difficult question.
There is a book written called Branding Bhakti. So which is about. It is basically a series.
Which. Is talking about. How various religions.
Are presenting themselves in contemporary audiences. So this is a book. About ISKCON.
And in that they have studied three gurus. Devamrith Swami, Radhanath Swami. And Hridayanand Swami.
So how they are trying to do. All three are trying to do western outreach. And how they are trying to do western outreach.
So. Of course the author is academic scholar. So they have to criticise everyone.
But they analyse and then they. Evaluate. So part of the evaluation is criticism.
So basically. It's that. Devamrith Maharaj.
According to this book what he is using is. They call it bait and switch. Bait and switch means what? You promise one thing.
And then give somebody something else completely. It's like. You learn about self help.
You learn how to improve your relationships. And the person comes. Chant Hare Krishna and your relationship will improve.
So that's called like you promise one thing. But you give something else. It's like bait.
You catch a fish with a bait. So bait is. The.
What you promise. But then when the person comes switch. You give something else completely.
So. So his approach is. He talks about.
He talks about wellness and everything. And many people come. But now this is his analysis.
I talked to Devamrith Maharaj about that book also. I will talk about Devamrith Maharaj later. But his analysis is that.
You create a phase. Which is very post modern. But after the person comes inside.
It's a very rigid authority. And people just get very disoriented by it. I came for one thing.
And I got something completely different. So. That is one way.
Devamrith Maharaj told me that is not the way I wanted. But many of the devotees. Who are actually running these projects.
Sometimes. They work. Because although they are connected with him.
They were not introduced. They have seen ISKCON working also. So they later on bring the ISKCON.
Very vertical way of working. So he said there is something which is true in the book. But something is of course.
Interpretation which is distortion. Now Hrudayan Maharaj. He goes to the other opposite.
He says Bhakti is a path to Krishna. Not a path to India. So.
According to him. There is. That.
There is no need for any aspect of Indian culture. To come for Bhakti in the west. Now.
This has created lot. He has got a lot of critics in ISKCON because of that. So he feels that.
From different parts of the world. People will practise Bhakti in their way. And come to Krishna.
And he has his case for it. Now Christianity is the most widespread religion. Because Christianity is not tied to culture.
There is no such thing as Christian culture. So. He gives example that.
Bible says that you should sing hymns in the praise of God. But it does not say hymns in which metre. Hymns in which time.
So that is why. If you go to South American church. It is clearly a South American church.
It is not a. Middle Eastern. It is not Jerusalem being put in South America. And that is why.
If you go to Indian churches. Now they have Jesus. They have adopted many aspects of Indian culture.
And they say this is the flexibility of Christianity. Now of course. He has a particular way of doing things.
So the question that comes is. So. So.
The criticism of that. Is that. Who is there.
His authors. He says that. How much is it Krishna.
And how much it is just witnessed. Krishna. So you know.
How much is it. So that is the question over there. And it is a valid question.
There is also like. There is a point of cultural misappropriation. See what happened is.
Yoga has become very popular in the west. And there is a little war going on. Intellectual war going on over yoga.
Between people like Rajiv Malhotra. And people like Deepak Chopra and others. So Deepak Chopra and others.
They want to portray. Yoga as universal. And that is why they say yoga.
Has nothing to do with any religion. And they say that yoga. Originated.
Long before. The constellation of religious denominations. That have now become universal.
And in this way. They want everyone to practise yoga. But.
Initially. When yoga started becoming popular. Christians.
There are Christians who have seminars. Yoga is from the devil. Yoga is satanic.
You should not be practising it. Now. Many Christian churches have.
A whole genre called Christian yoga. And they have re-envisioned. Or re-imagined.
Jesus sitting in various postures. Which is actually Yogasanas. So that is the Deepak Chopra side.
Now what is happening is. Rajiv Malhotra and others are saying that. What is happening in the west.
The good parts of Hinduism. Are taken by the west. And.
Hinduism is not given credit for that. But. In schools or in the media.
What do people see Hinduism to be? Hinduism is a caste system. Hinduism. Is the exploitation of.
People. Hinduism is the burning of widows. Hinduism is.
The drinking of cow piss. So. They say that the negative caricatures of Hinduism.
Are what are left with Hinduism. And all the positives are taken out. And that is why they say that.
Yoga is Hindu. So. The.
The. Sorry. What was your question? I got lost.
Oh. So that is cultural misappropriation. So cultural misappropriation means.
That you take something from a particular culture. But then. You don't give credit to that culture.
So like Yoga is taken from India. But Indian culture is not given credit for Yoga. Or Hindu culture is not given credit for Yoga.
So. There are. There are many examples of teachers like this.
Who have taken. Like Herbert Winfield is a. Very prominent proponent of. Relaxation response.
And he. Has taken many things from. From.
From Indian tradition. But he does not give any credit to Indian tradition. And for him.
His reasoning is that. As soon as I associate this with some religion. Then it creates sectarianism.
So. So. So he is accused of cultural misappropriation.
Because you know you cannot. How much can you divest Krishna Bhakti from. From Indian culture.
So is Krishna Indian? Well. Krishna is universal. But Krishna is certainly worshipped most in India.
So where exactly we. Do we draw. This is not a boundary.
This is Indian culture that need not be adopted. And this is spiritual culture. Or this is spiritual practise that has to be adopted.
So that is the complex question. See with respect to. Culture has four different things.
There is food. There is dress. There is nomenclature.
And there is music. Among many things there are four major things. So as far as food is concerned.
ISKCON has more or less become. Like pan culture. Rather than.
We taking Indian cuisine to the west. We often bring western cuisine. To India through ISKCON.
Like Chowmein. I heard about the name first after I came to ISKCON. I had no idea about it.
So with respect to dress. Dress Prabhupada was. To some extent particular.
And we have been particular to some extent about that. Now with respect to music. Now during Kirtanand Swami's time.
Kirtanand Swami had created. He said that. All these songs in Bengali or Sanskrit.
People can't understand it. So he had created translations. Of.
All the songs in the local languages. So Mangalarathi. Would be like a Hindi translation.
Of Samsara Daman. And a Hindi translation of Guru Pooja. Hindi translation of Narasimha Aarti.
In America. It is an English poetic rendition. So he said that.
And that was his reasoning. That's how we reach people. So.
How much can we change the music? That's open to question. How much can we change the nomenclature? So most of us. From a functional perspective.
Even for Indians. Our names are too long. So.
Nobody calls me Chaitanya Charan. We call it CC. Radhesha Pooja said wait to see.
Made to me by several western preachers. CCP. So one devotee wrote back to me privately.
He said CCP in America is the Chinese Communist Party. He said don't use this acronym at all. So our names are very long.
So. Now. What do you do with the West? In the West everybody shortens their names.
They call me Shama. Chaitanya Charan doesn't work. So.
Names are. Functionally meant to address. Now you say we want to remind people of Krishna.
But the obstacle for western people. Becomes from the name itself. So what do we do? When we give western names.
The Catholic Church has started doing that. Now if you see. Even Christians.
Like YSR, Reddy. None of their names are changed. Reddy will still be Reddy.
But he will become a Christian. So they have taken the biblical names. And they have found.
Tamil, Sanskrit, Marathi, Hindi. Equivalents of those terms. And they use those.
So I don't know. If we can do that. And I don't think we can.
The way Prabhupada made is gone. But the point is. So that's the other extreme.
Then what he says about Radhanath Maharaj. Is that Radhanath Maharaj. Has basically.
Redefined Yoga to be Bhakti Yoga. So he is using Yoga. As a front to.
So Yoga is a vast tradition. And Bhakti is a completely different tradition. But he is using Yoga as a mask.
To present Bhakti. Now I talk with Maharaj about this. Maharaj said.
That Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. Is Yoginav's salvation. So.
It's not that Radhanath Maharaj. Is the first person to say this. Krishna is the first person to say this.
But they say that. Bhagavad Gita is only one of the books about Yoga. Yoga has its own tradition.
And there is no mention of Bhakti. As emphatically in the Patanjali Goswami. But.
I mean she sees Radhanath Maharaj as in between. As Radhanath Maharaj is one extreme. Radhanath Maharaj is another extreme.
So. So basically. Coming back to the answer to your question.
That. How much. Should the authority.
Be emphasised. At what point. I think it will depend on.
Individual nature. Nature of the student. And nature of the teacher.
Some teachers. Will naturally function in a vertical. And even in the west.
When I say western culture. It's not monolithic. Even in the west there are people who seek.
Some authority figure. And they want to follow that authority. That's one of the main reasons why.
Young people go to Islam. Because what you said earlier. People are confused.
Everything is nothing. So from that confusion. A religion that gives absolute certainty.
This is right. This is wrong. And you live in this way.
And you will attain. So even western. Women born in western culture.
They. Not in large numbers. But they start.
Wearing the Islamic dress. And there are some people. Who just want that certainty.
And. So there will be people like that everywhere. So if somebody has a nature.
And they function in a vertical way only. Then they will be who they are. And they will find a particular.
But the danger is. Such people can very easily become fanatic. So it's one thing.
This is the way I want to function. That's ok. This is the only way that everyone should function.
This is the only authentic way to function. That's where it becomes fanatic. And some people.
Will just naturally be very horizontal. So those who are naturally horizontal. They will function that way.
And they will attract people. From their demo. So.
When I was doing this podcast. Alvin Bong's podcast. Especially during the pandemic.
And I noticed that. With none of the Indian leaders. I could actually have a discussion.
It's like. A podcast was just another way to give a lecture. For them.
But with Americans. I could have a podcast. Now of course our Indian leaders are also learning.
And some of them have made a mainstream podcast. And there is more of a discussion. But I was only 4-5 years before.
So the assumption of the vertical was very natural. The horizontal was. Very normal.
In the West. So I was in America. Actually it was in Radha Gopal Temple only.
That spiritual master had come here. And I went to meet him. And I asked him a particular question.
He said that. Okay. Let me.
You know. My secretary knows. So he was staying in one room.
And his assistant secretary. Whatever you want to call it. Was staying in the next room.
So he immediately went to the next room. And in both these rooms. There are these comfortable chairs.
So he went to the next room. And he was standing. And his disciple was sitting.
And talking with him. I just couldn't digest it. You know.
Most Indian gurus they will have some bell. You ring the bell. And the disciple will come running.
But here. He went to the room. And he was standing at the table for 5 minutes.
The disciple didn't even offer a chair to his guru. So. I was completely shaken.
What kind of guru disciple relationship is this? Then he asked me. What happened? I just couldn't digest this. You know.
I didn't even think about it. And neither did he think about it. So.
Was the disciple talking respectfully? Respectful discussion. That is guru was giving some instruction. Or something about what to do.
So. Certainly some level of. Some level of authority disciple structure.
Or authority disciple structure has to be there. But the externals. May look very different.
So at what stage. I think it will depend on individual. Individual to individual.
The teacher and the student. So. I don't think we can change ourselves too much.
Either the people who are grown up in a particular way. Can change ourselves. So I was talking to Radheshyam Prabhupada.
Radheshyam Prabhupada said that you know that. He is starting Western Outreach. He is doing some things.
Mostly focussing on Indians right now. And he said that you know. Purity is the force.
If people see an authority with purity. They will become subordinate. That's how Prabhupada was able to make them subordinate.
I said. Not really. There is truth to it.
But even Prabhupadas. Those who became Prabhupada followers. They grew in an authority structure.
In 1960, 1950 when they grew up. They had an authority. Which they found untrustworthy.
And they rejected it. And when they found a trustworthy authority in Prabhupada. They accepted it.
But the generation that has grown. Those who were born in 2000. 1990.
They have never had an authority structure like that. So for them it's a completely new way of living. A new way of functioning.
And there is a lot of resentment to authority. Almost 25% of Americans kids grow up in broken families. Where it's mostly like a mother taking care of the child.
And more than 50% of American blacks. They grow up in broken families. And because the father is not there.
There is a huge amount of resentment against male authority leaders. So there is one time. I went to a centre.
Where there was a Prabhu who was in charge of the temple. And he said I have so many problems. And finally he decided that he will make his wife in charge.
And he said just by that 60% of the problems went away. Because for them they never had a father in their life. So the male authority is by default treated with suspicion.
So these are very deep rooted scars that people have. So does that mean there is no authority? Does that mean men should have no power? Not like that. But it is that particular context.
So Neshkala Patra is very important. With respect to how authority can be established. just to complete this point.
Even in Mumbai if you see the South Bombay crowd. As compared to say the students in IIT. Who have come from various parts of India.
They are very different. They may be Indians only but it is a huge difference. Those kids who grow up in South Bombay.
Their ethos is very different. So those kids who have grown up in different parts of India and come to Mumbai. Their ethos is different.
So that's why time plays a circumstance. Yes Nityanandji. Very good.
Nice, interesting division. Makes sense. I was thinking about these divisions.
Point of appropriation you know. Like Christians are appropriating. If you see in our traditional system also.
It seems like to some extent they also address this issue. Like you see in all the traditional Sampradayas. If Madhva Sampradaya means there is a Sanskrit.
Moola is given weightage. Same time there is Turandar Das Kriti. Local language influences it.
Shri Sampradaya Uday Vedanti they call it. Vijaya Paramandam. Basically it's echoing the original Vedic text.
And Gujarat also. Everywhere in India. So I think it has been also thought about in other old people.
But what they did intelligently is that they never gave absolute authority to their local language. They always got the link you know. Kamba Ramayana is there but it cannot replace Moola Ramayana.
So it was going parallel even now also it's effective. Maharashtra, Abhanga has a particular power. But as long as Moola is there they cannot meddle with this.
We are talking about the Mishkan during after Prabhupada. But what they thought the difference is that they undermine the original Sanskrit text. It's like a complete replacement.
There's no need of that. So that can create a problem. That's why this imbalance.
Either this or that. But the two eyes, the other Sampradayas go like that. So this one observation I thought.
Second regarding this authoritative thing also. That's a good point. See basically you could have two external pendulum.
It's like reduce the spiritual to the cultural. That means Ramayana means only Valmiki Ramayana. Nobody else.
That was at a particular time Sanskrit was spoken. So reduce the spiritual to the cultural. The other is divorce the spiritual from the cultural.
So both these extreme need to be avoided. And when cultural misappropriation happens that is basically we divorce the cultural from the spiritual. So yoga has nothing to do with India.
Maybe just originate in India but it's universal. Okay that's true. But when it is divorced from the current culture entirely then the current culture gets no critics.
What you said in the Ramayana is that there is respect for the original. While also from a practical perspective far more people in the north know Ramcharitmanas than they know Ramayana. Valmiki Ramayana.
And probably in south also, in Maharashtra far more people know Karmas, Avangas than they know any Gita shlokas or even Vedic mantras. That's fair enough. So the balance would be that the spiritual through the cultural.
Now specifically which aspect of what culture needs to be preserved that is something which is complex. So in some south Indian temples they have while doing ritual also they may have verses sung not in Sanskrit but in Tamil or Telugu. In some places, for certain areas they have songs which are vernacular.
Certain places like especially where you do Yajna and other things, nobody will use vernacular language over there. So that's the difference between Yajna and Kirtan, deity worship and Kirtan. So I think there is a nuancing but the challenge over here is that there is scholars also accuse of misappropriation.
They say Krishna is not a Hindu God. Krishna is universal. That's a problematic statement.
To say we are not Hindu, we cannot really say that. We can say that we are giving universal spiritual principles. At the same time, if we have to be identified among any of the traditions of the world, we will be identified as Hindus.
We are certainly not Muslims or Christians. So our ISKCON communication department has made a statement that we are a monotheistic Vaishnava tradition within the broad family of traditions known as Hindus. That's the way they have tried to reconcile both of them.
So it's a danger which has to be carefully addressed. And the second point is that people need local cultural expressions and that is true. To what extent they can be accommodated, they can be facilitated, that is something which our movement still has to evolve at.
So we most likely will not be able to have in our temple programmes, we will have the traditional Bengali or Sanskrit songs. But then, maybe as our movement expands, maybe we will have people who are singers in Marathi. They may compose some songs.
We may have singers who compose some songs in English. We may have singers who compose some songs in today's Bengali. We may have singers who compose.
Who knows? We don't know how that is going to go. But the point is that people need to connect with Krishna through that which is familiar to them. So, the spiritual is unfamiliar, the cultural is familiar.
So, if it's double unfamiliarity, unfamiliar culture and unfamiliar spirituality, it becomes too much of a burden for them. So, it has to be, it is a challenge which has to be negotiated. Yes, sir.
Actually, our own Acharyas have, you see that is not this. You see, most of Jainism comes with such literatures. You know, there is a Sanskrit verse quoted and there is a Bengali rendition of it.
And, you know, and the commentaries also where the Acharyas gave Sanskrit commentary and they gave a Bengali poetic rendition of it. For, I mean, it must definitely be for the… See, there is a striking difference between, say, our tradition and, say, the Islamic tradition. See, it's like the Islamic tradition, the further you go down to its roots, the more fundamentalist and narrow it becomes.
But our tradition, the deeper we go into its roots, the broader it becomes. So, it's more like the tradition is broad, the contemporary expression is narrow. And I think that was a particular reason, a particular time, that's how it evolved.
But yes, there is a lot of breadth in our tradition. So, it's not that we are deviating to pander to modern times. We are only drawing from our own tradition things which may not have been required in the past.
They are required now and we are using them now. You had a second comment, Puru? I think we will stop after five minutes. Yeah, this is an interesting subject matter which has to be properly tested in this kind of discussion in the future.
The idea of what Raghavan Shukriti was also pointing out, is that only Sampradaya's creation was a Bhagavad-gita. There, one thing clear is that appropriation of the Sampradayas to the local people as well as the modern age placed the stand. They did not lose a root.
So, Bhagavatam is echoing the Brahma Sutra. Brahma Sutra is echoing the Upanishads. Upanishads are the end part of the Vedas.
So, the whole thing is held in all the time. Bengali Sanskrit is echoing in Bhagavatam. As Gopi Paranjan said in the Rupa Goswami's literature, though they evidently express it and this is not even apparently seen in Bhagavatam.
But it is not that these Goswamis, Bhogsas competing in Bhagavatam but it is complementary to Bhagavatam. So, this particular you know, going to the root and holding it. So, that is not possible for the common people.
So, those who are like in the leaders or those who are having a what you call, not only knowledgeable but also spiritual practitioners, you know, who are who are in the highest esteem. So, they are expert in both the things. So, they have to respect it.
So, whatever they are saying, the other people follow. The local people, they will be happy with the Abhangas. So, what is the difference between the Abhanga tradition and the Shiva-Ishvara-Madhva tradition is that in Maharashtra, even though the Abhangas are famous, but there are lot of confusions regarding Siddhanta because the Abhangas are not connected to the root because of the lack of Sampradaya, Brahminical tradition or something, as far as my understanding goes.
But Bengali songs or Purandara songs, the Brahminical connection is intact. So, in Iskcon, in the future, if you want to go for English translation, English songs or minority appropriation of Bengali songs, it is okay. But that has to be done not as absolute replacement of the originals, one.
Second is that that should be done echoing the originals, you know. So, these things can be kept in mind when we even study for outreach, you know. Otherwise, we may lose that kind of observation.
Yes, true. See, basically, there is Siddhanta and there is Sanskriti. Sanskriti is like technology.
Everybody uses mobile. But if the mobile stops working, most people don't even know how mobile works. For that, you need somebody who knows the science.
So, always the technology's reach will be far far bigger than the science's reach. The people who use the technology far far more. Like that, the culture will reach far far broader than the Siddhanta.
But when the culture goes off, it is those who know the Siddhanta, they can fix it. So, we cannot go so much that this is Siddhanta and there is no place for Sanskriti. That Sanskriti will vary.
That science, scientists themselves are not technologists. Science is more about understanding how things work. Technology is more of making them work at particular places for solving particular problems.
Siddhanta is the nature of reality. Sanskriti is how can this current reality be rearranged so that people can reach the ultimate reality. So, there will be variants in Sanskriti.
But without a Siddhanta, we need, ideally speaking, some people at least, who are strongly connected with this and strongly connected with this also. They will maintain the balance. We can talk more about this balance later on.
But one last point is, the word adaptation and what you were talking about more of adaptation, not appropriation is a different word entirely. So, appropriate means that there is a foreign culture and that takes something from the other culture and swallows it. So, that's appropriation.
The word appropriate is an adjective where it means correct or good. But the word appropriate means to take for oneself. So, the word appropriation comes from that word, not the adjective.
Whereas, adaptation is there is a main culture this is the main culture or main tradition, you could say and that the surface is changed to the language changes. Prabhupada went to America and he preached in Bengal. He preached in English.
So, that surface level does not change. So, what we are talking, every tradition has to do adaptation. So, I will quickly summarise and we will continue this in some future sessions.
Thank you. Thank you too for your comments. So, I broadly discussed I have discussed four main points.
First was, we discussed about how changes affect our outreach. That was a broad theme. And in that connection, we discussed how what may seem as degradation may actually be like misconceived or misdirected attempts at autonomy.
So, somebody wearing a particular kind of dress is not necessarily that they are degraded but they just think, I want to break free from the patriarchy. I want to do what I want to do. Then I discussed about the ages and how things change.
Pre-modern, modern and post-modern. In the ages, the source of authority changes. So, pre was what? Shastra, scripture.
Modern was? Science. Post-modern is? Experience. And connected with this experience itself, we can say the east versus the west.
So, in the east still the authority structure is there. So, whether it could be science, it could be scripture, it could just be tradition. The authority is much more horizontal.
West has become much more vertical. Sorry, much more horizontal. East is much more vertical.
So, we, our style of outreach, it is very suited for this. So now, how do we create something suited for that? That, we have to find out. So, I discussed these three examples of say, Pradhan Maharaj is much more horizontal.
Devamrit Maharaj is, at least according to that analysis, Radha Maharaj is somewhere in between. That there are, basically yoga is a pathway to bhakti yoga. But different devotees are trying different things.
And we'll have to see what works. Ultimately, it is deshe kaala patra. How much authority, like for me, I came from Pune, which has a very rigid authority structure.
And Chapadni was very different. I had to recalibrate my understanding of what Krishna Consciousness is. So, that itself is, it's not that, it's just East and West.
It is India. Within India only, you can have different authority structures. So, that is individual.
And the last part I discussed about is that, the link between the spiritual and the cultural. So, we want to avoid both extremes. Reduce the spiritual to the cultural.
You can't say that, only pakodas are spiritual. Pizzas are material. That's because we already wrote an article about pizzas and pakodas.
And that is a balancing liberal and conservative perspective it is not. So, reduce spiritual to the material, to the cultural. And divorce spiritual from the cultural.
So, both need to be avoided. We understand that, the spiritual needs to be approached in a culturally appropriate way. Culturally adapted way.
So, the adaptation is good. But in the name of adaptation, we want to avoid appropriation.