Appreciating Radhanath Maharaja’s mood 2 Address to counsellors, Chowpatty, Mumbai

So, actually with respect to outreach in the West, there are some areas where people seem to be receptive. So, whatever I observe, it seems like sattva is rising in the West in these four areas.
One is yoga. Maharaj is focussing on the eco-village and the yoga school. Then other is veganism.
Then another is environmental consciousness. And the fourth is mental health and mindfulness. Mindfulness and broadly the mental health area.
Where people, and sattva is rising means that people are looking for more holistic solutions. So, people are becoming more and more open to spirituality. And Buddhism has capitalised on this big time.
We have not been able to capitalise on it so much. Yoga, bhakti yogis have not capitalised but a lot of other yoga people have capitalised on it. So specifically about mindfulness and mental health, it is an increasing problem.
And there are ways in which Krishna consciousness can offer wisdom that can solve mental health problems. There are also ways in which if Krishna consciousness is misunderstood or misapplied, it can aggravate people’s mental health problems. So both can happen.
So specifically, I’ll talk about the recent discussion I had with Maharaj. There was a case of one centre in the western world. And their devotees were trying to do western outreach under one spiritual master.
And when they were doing this, the leader over there was an Indian who was doing western outreach. This was all Matajis. Mostly Matajis in the centre.
Also Matajis of the central level. So she became a little strong or harsh with the people whom she was guiding and training. And that person felt hurt.
And in the west, emotional abuse is a very tenuous thing. It’s very difficult to define also. But anyway, she felt emotionally abused.
I’ll talk about some cases where actually it has also happened. I’ll tell you the specific case that happened and then how it escalated and what happened after that. And then what Maharaj said.
So anyway, this girl, who was a westerner, her father was a very influential person in the west. And then she wanted to do a court case against his conscience. She said, I was abused in a temple.
Not in a temple, in a western office centre. Then that didn’t work. For whatever reason, she decided to go not in the legal way, but the public media.
So somehow she had some contact with New York Times. So an article was published in New York Times talking about this whole issue. But then our devotees came to know about it.
And then the devotee who was accused of it, she also hired a very high-powered lawyer because this could become a libel case. And then that lawyer wrote a letter to New York Times. And with almost every accusation that was levelled against her, her response was put in square brackets.
So eventually the article that came in square brackets, her response came out. Overall, the article was not very negative. But the end result was that the GBC said that that centre should be closed down.
And that particular Mataji was told, you should not do any more preaching for at least two years. And you should get training in what is emotional abuse and how to avoid emotional abuse. And her spiritual master was told that you should encourage all your disciples to do courses in this direction.
And in order to not single him out, it was decided in GBC’s initiative that all Gurus should take training in the course in emotional abuse. Now how much it was implemented, I do not know. But that’s what happened.
So then I talked to Maharaj about it. So the Guru whose disciple this was, that Guru is a close friend of Maharaj. So when I talked with Maharaj, Maharaj knew everything about the issue.
So Maharaj is so perceptive. Maharaj says, I know that Mataji also is doing outreach. He said that she was accused of emotional abuse.
But the way she was treated by Sikh authorities, that was also emotional abuse on her. So he said, Mataji said that I understand from the leader’s perspective, the devotee who was in charge, the GBC member who had, basically the devotees, when they got the complaint, they had some inter-religious professionals, some devotees, some secular people. They formed a committee, they did an investigation.
And when the reports came out, then they took some action. So the GBC member took the action and said, I know him also. And he has to face the, he has to face the western media.
He will have to face us in court cases. He will have to present his coin in court cases and this becomes a court case. So he said that I, when I am sitting in Mumbai, and I am in Radhashtami classes, I am not facing the American media.
So I cannot judge him and say that what he did was wrong. But he said that I know her and I will offer her all my support that I can individually. At the same time, he said our devotees, whenever they are in preaching, they need to be talking with the people whom they are preaching to, not just talking to them.
Talking with, not talking to. Like you are talking with them, you should hear from them, the way we are instructing, what is the impact on that individual. So, now there are, now after this whole thing happened, this has been going on for several years.
And after this whole thing happened, I studied a little bit of emotional abuse. And it is that many of the things which you normally consider in Indian society, a normal discipline, they are considered emotional abuse. Now are they or are they not? It is difficult.
That definition, I have been emotionally abused throughout my life. I am not trivialising emotional abuse. It is a real thing.
But that definition itself, it is very vague that anything can be included in it. Almost. So Maharaj said that, I asked him, how do we ensure that the discipline doesn’t become emotional abuse also.
So he said that, you know, leaders have to be aware and they have to be talking with the people. Only when they are talking, then it won’t be seen as emotional abuse. So, there are 2-3 different cases where sometimes philosophy is abused.
And philosophy can come off as emotionally abusive. So, I know a couple of cases. I am quite fond of the way they happen.
So, I was at one devotee’s house in one country. I was staying with them and then this couple, they said they want to talk with you. I said definitely.
So, this Mataji, she was in the community. Mataji was western and Prabhu was Indian. I could write to her and say, Prabhu actually couldn’t even speak English fluently.
And this Mataji was an M.A. in English literature. Very fluent in English. It was a mess.
They are separated now, unfortunately. And Mataji has left this school also. But I met her when she was in Canada.
She is favourable. So, she was doing a lot of distribution. Then she got married and she got pregnant.
And when she got pregnant, now naturally she couldn’t go home for distribution. And then when she was pregnant for some time, she had a miscarriage. And then she called her ashram leader.
She used to stay in ashram. The first thing her ashram leader told her, Krishna has removed this obstacle for your distribution. I knew this Mataji also.
I talked with her about it. But she said, I was so disgusted. I just mentally turned off from her.
I stopped going to the temple. I stopped going there. Her husband was not a Shri Vaishnava background.
So she started going to Shri Vaishnava temple over there. And then when I talked with this Mataji, she said, I was just only trying to help her see something positive. That when Narada’s mother passed away, Narada saw this.
He has been freed from that entanglement. So that he can practise Vakti. So, I don’t have… Did you see any difference in the situation? She said, no, it’s similar.
She said, no, that is a conclusion Narada himself has arrived at. When somebody else coming, giving you that conclusion, what happens is, it is, as Mataji just told you, the first thought came, is Krishna God who kills babies so that he is mostly redistributed? What kind of God is this? So, it is, sometimes when people have had some adversity happening in their life, at that time, their concern, their own faith in God will be shaken. And we try to tell them this is a spiritual opportunity made by Krishna.
It’s just a complaint. We are just not speaking to them at all. Their concern is that, you know, you just have your agenda and I am an instrument in your agenda.
You don’t care for me at all. You don’t care for my emotions at all. So, now the intention might not be emotional, but these kind of statements are horrible.
And basically there is this whole genre of like emotionally intelligent spirituality. Emotionally intelligent spirituality is talked about in the professional workplace. But emotionally intelligent spirituality means that people’s emotions are a part of who they are.
Our own emotions are also a part of who we are. And if our spirituality just overrides our emotions or sidelines our emotions or suppresses our emotions, then that can be very unhealthy. And eventually people explode overnight.
Explode or implode. Explode, they yell at others. Implode, they collapse within themselves.
So, with respect to emotionally intelligent spirituality, the key what happens is that, at that one point, mental health is a separate topic. I will come to that shortly. But what happens is the leader has a particular mission.
And they may genuinely want you to serve Krishna on that mission. But they have that mission and everyone seems to just get reduced to a tool for that mission. And what that person is going through, that they just don’t care for.
And when that happens, people just get lost completely. People get alienated quite a bit. So, Maharaj told me that, there are so many other experiences of this.
It is a misapplication of spiritual principles. Where sometimes somebody becomes very fanatical. So now, the fanatical is, it’s not that the leader is a bad person.
But what the leader does, is that they just don’t consider the emotions of the person over there. Consider the situation of the person over there. And this kind of spirituality ends up hurting people.
So, for many years, within our movement, the emotions were largely seen as maya. You are just being sentimental. Get out of the mental platform.
Get out of the sentimental platform. So, what you feel doesn’t matter at all. Just do and you will be purified.
There is some truth to that. But we cannot say that it is true for all emotions. It’s like a little hot right now.
Little bit heat, we can tolerate. But if say, below us, there is an oven. And we are sitting on the oven and it’s like a furnace.
We are feeling burning. Something has to be done about it. So, some amount of tolerance of physical discomfort we can do.
Some amount of tolerance of emotional discomfort we can do. But if it goes beyond that, then it becomes a serious problem. And if the emotions themselves are treated as maya, then everything associated with that is just dismissed.
And if somebody is feeling hurt, somebody is feeling depressed, somebody is feeling lonely, it’s all just maya. That’s how it is treated. But it is not like that.
The mind is a reality in itself. In the body, mind and soul, each one of them is a reality. So, now with respect to mental health, I have talked with many ISKCON leaders and with Maharaj also.
So, I will first start with what Maharaj has said and then I will talk about what a few other leaders have talked about. So, what Maharaj has said is that that for mental health, whatever is required, we should encourage devotees to do that. It is not that we should make, if somehow chanting or devotional practises do not help them, then it is not that we should make them feel that they are being unfaithful to Krishna or Bhakti.
If devotional practises help them, wonderful. They don’t, we don’t come in the way of whatever they need to do to restore their emotional health. So, the Maharaj Maharaj told me that he feels that every urban centre of ISKCON should have a list of, should have some mental health professionals affiliated with it.
That these are people who we recommend as a movement. So, the idea is that Christians or Catholics are very very systematic about this. Because the mental health professionals can sometimes give advice which is completely opposite to the religious principles.
So, they say that these are sanctions, these are approved or at least they are not disapproved by the church. So, now we may, we have some at some place, like there are some devotees who may offer mental health care, but it is not very well developed. The problem is quite extensive.
Anyway, there are three different things over here. So, this is the Amit Maharaj’s opinion. Now, there are other devotees who are working in this direction.
Hanuman Prashad Maharaj, he is Guru Radhikaraman Prabhu. He is doing extensive research on Kaal-yam and Bhakti Sankhya Dhaakuri. What both of them say about the mind.
Kaal-yam, Kaal-yam is a prominent western philosopher. Kaal-yam, Kaal-yam, Kaal-yam, Kaal-yam, Kaal-yam. It is a J, it is a Y, so it is young, Kaal-yam.
So, he said that many devotees who have talked with him on mental health problems, he has asked them to read Kaal-yam and it has helped them quite a bit. So, mental health is a serious issue. And it is, to say that Christian consciousness alone Now it is like saying Krishna Consciousness alone will solve physical health problems.
Now some ways, yeah, if a person’s lifestyle is unregulated, their diet improves, their sattva improves, so physical health can be improved. But it is not that physical health, all problems of physical health will be solved by Krishna Consciousness. Similarly, it is not that all problems of mental health will be solved by Krishna Consciousness.
So I could go more into this, but this was broadly, so there are three things over here. It is like Krishna Consciousness and mental health. So, you could have three interactions.
Krishna Consciousness solves mental health problems. Krishna Consciousness is independent. That means that, you know, you have mental health issues, you have Krishna Consciousness.
You grow Krishna Consciousness by certain practises, you address mental health by certain problems, purposes. And then, this is Krishna Consciousness causes mental health problems. So, unfortunately, the third one also happens.
Especially, I think this happens when there is people with incompatible values. Like somebody who is a very hierarchical conservative and that person is training somebody who is a very, who has a liberal orientation. And that person has a need for autonomy.
In our Brahmacharya ashram, we had a yatra. So, we had senior Brahmacharis. And Shri Shyamangal asked three senior Brahmacharis a question.
And some Brahmachari wants to do a service different from what the authorities tell him to do. So, how do you signature a Brahmachari? So, the three senior Brahmacharis, the first, immediately, immediately. Second, he said, creative.
Third, potential leader. So, it is a strange behaviour. So, somebody is very, very conservative.
If you want to do what you want to do, that is just being musical. So, if somebody has a strong need for autonomy, they need their space to do things. And if they have a leader who just doesn’t give them space, then they will end up getting mental health problems.
Because they will start feeling guilty. And, oh, no, I am not being Krishna conscious. I am not being sincere enough.
This or that. So, unfortunately, Krishna consciousness can cause mental health problems also. I could speak more, but are there any reflections, thoughts on this? Yes, ma’am.
Yes. Thank you so much. Many times, after a woman delivers a child, the husband is very fanatic.
He expects her to chant 16 rounds with the same, you know, the same way that she was doing before she even conceived. And without offering any help from his side, then it causes a lot of mental trauma to the woman. So many cases of this sort, ma’am.
Or sometimes, when you are married, sometimes, many times, devotee boys, they get married to somebody from their village because their parents have told them that they should do so. And somebody has told them that devotee girls are not good. You get married to a village girl.
Devotee girls are not good. No, they are not good. Because they are not so, especially Bombay girls, because they are not so submissive as the village girls.
Wrong impression for village girls are equally. Girls are girls. So, when they get married, they expect them to be on the same level as them.
They don’t give them their space. Pooja, I think you had made one quote, each one from your space, join the race at your own pace. That is just perfect for everybody.
But people don’t understand when there is so much pressure, without making any emotional investment in their relationship, and that causes a lot of trauma. People go into depression, and they suffer a lot for such a few years. Yes, that’s true.
And sometimes, even in the saffron, and the thirst, if that clarity is not there in the saffron, it also depends on their upbringing, how they are being brought up. There is one incident, many years back, one of the devotee mothers was cooking. There was some programme.
She was cooking for the guests. And the Prabhuji was holding the child. So, the person, the Brahmachari, who was there, he said, So, such a wrong impression on that person’s mind.
Next time, he will feel, I should not carry the child. The wife is doing seva, so he is holding the child. So, there are so many things that happen, which then disturb the mind of the person who is doing the seva, and even the wife’s mind was disturbed for many days together.
So, if they are not educated, as you rightly said, emotional intelligence is a must. And I think, in the Bhagavad Gita, every chapter, Krishna is speaking about emotional intelligence, and about compassion, and empathy, and being trying to help. Siddha Prajna, and Swamigri, everywhere he is mentioning this.
So, we don’t even need the western philosophy for that. I just thought, what was he trying to do, understand that we need to be emotionally very very stable. Not only when it comes to ourselves, but even when it comes to others.
Sensitivity for ourselves, and for others. Because generally you are emotionally sensitive for yourself, but you can be very tough when you are dealing with others. Thank you for raising this topic.
Thank you. Hare Krishna. So, unfortunately, that point of emotional stability, I have seen it often used as a way of rejecting emotional sensitivity.
That, if not, they don’t, many devotees don’t see it as you should be emotionally intelligent. Then, this whole emotional sensitivity, you are just too insensitive, too hypersensitive. Actually, you should be going beyond all this.
Siddha Prajna, you are studying, that means you shouldn’t be feeling all these emotions. Actually, there is a, I would say, historical reason also for this. You know, our movement is, you know, when you come from one country to another, suddenly there is a jet lag.
So, we are still suffering from a generational jet lag. Generational jet lag means, what I mean is, that our first generation, first generation was almost entirely monastic. Monastic means everybody lived in a monastery, ashram.
I mean, grahasthas were living in the ashram. So, now, the second generation, they are mostly congregation. But what has happened is, much of what Prabhupada has written in his books, in Prabhupada’s books there are, you could say, there are, there is something which is timeless, but there is something which is also timely.
He is speaking at that time to people who are there. The timeless principles are timely instructions also. So, what has happened, the definition of seriousness in bhakti is equated with monastic standards of bhakti.
So, monastic standards is, you wake up at a particular time, do this mangal aarti, do this, do that, do that. I was in our community in America and this devotee was a brahmachari and he was very serious brahmachari and he got married and then he used to, he used to go, just like he was a brahmachari, before he was a brahmachari, at 4.30 he would go for the morning programme, attend the bhagavad-gita class, come back, just to start and then he would come back home and he would just go back to the temple in the evening also. And all the time he was spending in the temple.
Within one and a half years, his wife left him. He says, it is just, he said that, she said that he is, you know, I just felt like I was his unpaid maid at home to take care of his home. He was never there for me for anything.
And he was different and he said, I did exactly what I was told to do and I followed Krishna consciousness the way I was told to do. I tried being a serious grahastha. So, what has happened, the idea of a serious grahastha is, be like a brahmachari or a sanyasi.
No, a serious grahastha is be a grahastha. So, that generational jet lag is there. And because of that, this problem does come up.
So, the way, how a grahastha should be, you know, grahasthas can take inspiration from brahmacharis, but brahmacharis cannot be models for grahasthas. A grahastha need grahastha models. So, I think, those who come from brahmachari life to grahastha life, it is, actually after I started travelling abroad, because in the west, mostly we don’t have temples and we don’t have so many places to stay in the temple.
So, I started staying in the houses of many grahasthas. That’s how, actually, I had to recalibrate my whole understanding of Krishna consciousness. How busy grahastha life is, how many responsibilities are there.
Before, it was, oh, all this is just but an entanglement. You can’t call it but an entanglement. It is responsibility and it needs to be done properly.
So, I think, it is emotional intelligence, you could say, but it is more like we have a problematic definition of success in math. You are in a problematic definition of seriousness in math. So, because of that definition, people may be well-intentioned, but they end up making a mess of things.
So, all that, hopefully, if there is more interaction, there is more understanding, then things will change. Yes, please. So, in the Indian context, since you spoke about the example of grahastha, and really something… Sorry, can I just add one more thing? Yeah.
So, not just, there is one boy, he is a gurukul. He is now a favourable, very intelligent boy. He is not a devotee, but very favourable.
So, he says that my prominent memory of my childhood, defining memory of my childhood is my parents’ constant disappointment that I was not the reincarnation of Prahlad Maharaj. So, very articulate, very biting. So, he says that is my prominent memory of my childhood.
Yes, please. So, in the Indian context, you know, clearly there are some things which are absolutely necessary, you know, emotional stability, emotional understanding, sensitivity, no doubts. But can’t there be differences in the nuances? When you talk about, you know, requirements, expectations, standards, you know, in India, there is, you know, versus the West.
So, while, because it could be perhaps that this could be taken as a licence by many gurus to be quite relaxed and, you know, family diversity is very important. I am trying to compare to that. But his language is putting it, you know, very high priority above spiritual life, like service, everything.
Where do you draw that? Because you can easily pick something, and in the West it’s a different thing. In India, you have given some examples which are perhaps on the extreme side. Yeah.
And then it could be distorted by some people. The point I am making here is that, I agree with you fully, that when we give, when we give a licence, people can take like, give an angel, they take a man. That is always possible.
Like a slippery slope, it go down that. Now, those who are going to do that, even without an excuse, they will do it. So, it is just that, you know, in Krishna consciousness, there are bonds.
The bond is with Krishna. And there are boundaries. The boundaries means you need to live within these boundaries.
Now, to some extent, now what boundaries should a devotee live in? Say, for, I don’t know, 1998, probably till 2009 or something, I didn’t read a single news item. That time internet was not there. And I considered my ignorance to be a sign of my transcendence.
But then, Maharaj also tells that joke, you know, that when he started college preaching, in 1966, 67, 68, the Vietnam war was going on. And America was drafting people, forcibly constructing them, so that they would go and fight. Because the young Americans were not ready to go.
And many young people were actually saying that, Oh, I am a Catholic monk, I am a Buddhist monk, I am this. They were using their religious affiliation as a way of dodging the draft. So, Maharaj, he said, we were preaching in 1973-74.
No, 1978. He started preaching, so he also spoke that. Like better join the temple, otherwise you will be drafted.
The draft ended 10 years ago. So, now, so the point is that Maharaj is completely in his own world at that time. His world with Krishna, of course.
But, yeah, so the boundaries. Now, what boundaries? Who can live within? If we impose that too much, then people feel suffocated. And then they can’t, they start thinking this is the only way to practise Krishna consciousness.
And if you can’t, then there is no space for me in Krishna consciousness. So, it’s difficult because we want to give space to those who need the space. But we don’t want that to become justification for everyone to go down.
Down a further standard. So, how do you do that? It’s, like I met one boy, he has come from this area. And, okay, let me first, Maharaj gave me this example of, you know, how there are, there are, there are many people who, he said that, there is one devotee here.
We have a temple in, we have a bhakti centre in New York. And around that we have two other temples. We have one temple in New Jersey, two temples in New Jersey.
So, there is a temple president, vice president, his son, he is an American Indian now. Or Indian American basically. Indian born in America.
And brought up in America. So, he, although his father is the vice president of that temple, he says, I don’t feel comfortable in that temple. And he travels one and a half hours to come to the bhakti centre.
He says, I feel that atmosphere is much more welcoming and accepting. So, now, and his father would much rather like he comes to the temple because the whole community is there. But he said that, I just feel constantly judged and devalued over there.
In the bhakti centre, I feel accepted. So, he talked to Maharaj also about this. Maharaj says that, if bhakti centre had not been there, then he would have probably left bhakti.
He would have thought that, ok, this is the only way to practise bhakti. So, I asked him, what is the way you feel judged? So, he said that, whenever I go to the temple, everybody asks me how I learn to chant. I went to the bhakti centre, nobody asked me how I learn to chant.
So, just, ok, you can come, practise bhakti. Now, those who ask him also how he learns to chant, they may be with good intention. But just people feel pressured by that.
They are small things. So, my point is that we want to give space for different people who want to practise bhakti in different ways. But, but at different levels.
Now, do we want people who are more serious to go down to a less serious level? I don’t think so. But, there are many who cannot practise at that level, who ought to practise. And we don’t want to lose them.
Am I addressing your point? So, the challenge would be to define the boundaries in the Indian context, not in the western context. I think that’s something which is, I think we’ll have to go case to case, or a city to a city. Yes.
Can we really differentiate that, in this age, when the whole world is a village, because of the technology and India. So, can we really differentiate any longer, maybe 5-10 years more, later on, as it is going to be, whether it is Indian context or western, to get back to what it is. Good question.
It’s interesting that, in the west, in many ways, Indians are asserting their Indian-ness more now. Maybe because India is rising on the geopolitical scene, so Indians are more confident, less ashamed. Now, in what way they assert their Indian-ness, that may vary.
But, I think the differences themselves will not go away entirely. But, they may not be conceived in the same way as they were conceived in the past. So, Martin Luther King, we know him as a civil rights activist in America.
He was actually also a Baptist priest. So, he said that the church hour is the most divided hour in America. What he meant by that is, that in a church, people like to worship with people from their backgrounds.
So, there is a very successful church in New York. They have 8 services. One service for white Americans, one service for black Americans, one service for Latinos, one service for Chinese people, one service for Irish people, one service for Indian people.
And, they reset the entire ambience. The pastor will speak in that particular language. They will have food in that language.
They will have music in that particular culture. As much as possible, they reset the church ambience according to that. So, basically, the point is that when people are doing some worship, they want to generally feel culturally comfortable.
So, to what extent will the identity be asserted? Now, if we say culture in terms of dress, how many people are going to wear the same dress that maybe one generation ago people were wearing? That may not be the same. But culture in terms of music, I think a lot of, at least I don’t know here in India, but America, a lot of young Indian girls learn Bharatanatyam, Kathakali. And, it’s become a big thing.
And, it also gives them a sense of cultural pride. And, they perform in their colleges. And, they spend hours and hours, years they spend dedicating.
And, your parents can’t pressurise beyond a particular time. They have to have that taste. So, I think culture is being asserted.
But, maybe not in exactly the way it was traditional. Some aspects, these girls, maybe Kathakali dancers or Bharatanatyam dancers still may have girlfriends. They may have boyfriends.
So, they may take something from that culture, something from our culture. So, it’s not that the traditional culture has been completely rejected. But, some parts of it may be retained, some may not be.
Does it make sense? Swamiji, towards the end of what you were speaking about emotional health, you mentioned the fact that Bhakti, Krishna Consciousness can become a cause for lack of emotional health. Then, you spoke about that if you push someone too much, then they are not ready for it. Then, it can cause actually guilt and so many other things that are there.
Now, I would like to hear from you that as counsellors, serving as counsellors, we are expected to work with devotees and gently nudge them to take Krishna Consciousness more seriously. And, sometimes we see people kind of slipping away or going into that kind of drifting. It doesn’t happen abruptly.
It happens over a period of time. We see them drifting or losing their focus in Krishna Consciousness and their many other priorities. So, at that time, when we speak to them, it’s a very weird conflict.
Because, if we push too hard, yes, it can be seen as emotional abuse. But, if we don’t push, then we are kind of condoning or accepting that they are drifting away, what can be done. Because, they are not going to change their path if we just leave them where they are.
So, what is the right way to balance without causing emotional abuse at the cost of trying to bring them back into the mainstream. Because, now, based on what we discussed today, in the mainstream itself, the definitions become a little blurred. There is one place in America, which is, you could say, the place where retired Prabhupada disciples stay.
One state in America is, there is no state tax. So, it’s cheap to stay there. There are many Prabhupada disciples and many of those disciples, it’s known that they don’t chant 16 rounds.
It’s known that they are not necessarily following all the vinayana principles. But, when Maharaj goes there, there are quite a few devotees who Maharaj spends time with. So, I know one prominent leader in London, who has now, more or less, he said, I have resigned from Krishna Consciousness.
So, when Maharaj goes, Maharaj spends time with him. So, I don’t know what Maharaj talks with him. But, I mean, he is a very intelligent person.
Somebody can be intelligent and use Krishna Consciousness. It’s not that, just because they are doing Krishna Consciousness, there are issues. See, again, from the right-wing perspective, what happens? If somebody leaves Krishna Consciousness, the system is right, the individual is wrong.
That’s the idea. And, Dharamdasa Rupa says that, when any devotee would bloop, in our ashram, we would all come together and we would have a collective fortifying session. I saw him stating Mahaprashad.
You know, I saw him committing Vaishnav Pratam. Because of that, he left. He is a bad person, we are all nice.
So, like that, we would pat ourselves on the back and, we are right, he is bad. So, the right-ist way is that, the system is perfect, the individual is wrong. And, now, the philosophy itself will be perfect.
But, the institution will not be. And, there are times, the left-way is, this whole set-up is wrong. And, the individual is right.
Therefore, the whole set-up has to be changed. The truth, generally, is somewhere in between. At least, when I have talked with a devotee, I have good relationship with him.
The London devotee, I have not talked so much with the Alachua devotees. But, I don’t, he has a very warm relationship with Maharaj. I don’t think Maharaj is pushing him to start chanting his rounds or anything like that.
You could say, this is the way Maharaj acts. I don’t say that. Maharaj is his own person and he deals with people in a particular way.
You know, I was once talking with Giriraj Maharaj. And, Giriraj Maharaj told me, you know, whenever I meet him, he… Sorry, I am wandering off, but I will come back to your point again. That, Giriraj, tell me about your interactions with Radhanath Maharaj.
What happened? So, Giriraj Maharaj told me, you know that, I noticed that Radhanath Maharaj never gives you any instructions. He only gives suggestions. So, I never thought about it.
I said, yes. Then I asked three of my senior Godbrothers. You know that, you know, why did Maharaj… Like, say, when I am travelling abroad, which place should I go, which place should I go? Maharaj said, nice, you can spend more time over here.
He doesn’t say, stay only at this place or do only this. Then I asked three different Godbrothers. And all three, first said, Maharaj doesn’t think you are surrendered enough.
So, that’s why he is not giving you instructions. The second devotee said that. Second Godbrother, he said that, Maharaj doesn’t want to bind you with instructions which you may not be able to follow.
Third, he said that, you know, Maharaj will… that is just Maharaj’s nature. Maharaj will encourage, but Maharaj will not insist on anything. So, you need to see his encouragement as an instruction.
Now, I would say that, these three set of explanations tell me more about that person than about Maharaj. So, but what I have seen is that, Maharaj is, he tries to maintain the relationship. And certainly with the relationship, we would like the person to practise Bhakti or recommence the practise of Bhakti.
But, I don’t know how much, there is one devotee, how much Maharaj would push. There is one devotee in Kailash Yuga. He had a severely, not just autistic child, the child had cerebral palsy.
He was a disciple of Maharaj. And multiple health problems. And basically it was like, when the mother was in the hospital, the hospital made a mess of everything.
And because of that, the child was born seriously, with serious problems. So, he wrote to Maharaj and asked Maharaj that, that, you know, should I see this as my karma and accept it or should we sue the hospital? So, Maharaj said that, that, you have to take care of your child. And if you can get some support in taking care of your child, then see that support as something to help you in your service.
So, then he sued the hospital. He has got, like, no support now. So, now, in that context, he said that, you know, when this whole thing was going on, he said, you know, I had a child to take care of, I had a court case to attend to, related to your point.
He said, I just could not change my rules. So, he said, I wrote to Maharaj. He said, he is, I mean, he is a son of a disciple of Prabhupada.
So, Maharaj is quite close to him. So, Maharaj, he said, I just don’t have time to change any rules right now. Not any rules, I can change them in 16 months.
So, Maharaj said that, I trust the sincerity of your heart. And Maharaj did not comment anything about his non-changing 16 months. So, not that he is condoning it, but he is never condemning the world.
So, it is, life is demanding at times. And sometimes people are dealing with complex situations. So, you know, some people are like, in the West I have seen people are very insightful.
Another boy told me that, throughout my childhood, I never felt as if my parents loved me. They loved the idea of me being a trophy of their Krishna Consciousness. Did you know that? That? That they could show in the community how, what a wonderful devotee my child is.
So, they just wanted me to be a trophy. It’s a sadly insightful perspective. So, people at such times when they are into difficulties, they really, really have this question, do you care for me as a human being? Or do you care for me simply as a success story of your preaching? So, people need to feel we care for them as a person.
And yes, we would like them to be Krishna Conscious, but if they feel that we don’t care for them as a person, then they will go away from us and they will go away from Krishna Consciousness also. That’s the best part of it. With this mental and emotional issues, you know, now taking more or less at this stage, I think it’s not only amongst the youth, but because of the stress or pressures, it’s also there, you know, within the devotee community.
So, it may be very important that our leaders, you know, counsellors also sort of get, you know, some sort of education in what really it means. Because these are very subtle issues. So, it can be brushed aside.
Just like sometime back, you know, when we started this Posh, we have a team over here. I don’t think people really believe that, you know, this is a real issue within the community. And it has such a broad connotation that it covers, you know, many acts, which would be considered under, you know, this particular umbrella.
Similarly, mental and emotional issues also. Yes, Krishna Consciousness will definitely help. But beyond that, maybe you need medical treatment, you need medicines, you need so many other things to be treated, which I think as devotees who are coming, you know, being there in the movement for so many years, probably we are not fully aware of these things.
Now we are becoming aware because of, you know, what is happening to the younger generation and all. So, it may also be important for our education, for our counsellors, for others to be aware what actually scientifically it means. And maybe within families we ourselves are going through that.
There is somebody in the family who is, you know, devotee for so many years but still going through that. Yeah, I think that education is very much required. There is, some devotees have started, there is an online forum called Karuna Care, which is some devotees, Rampur Mantarji has started an online forum.
It is more customised for Western outreach. Or rather, she is a Westerner, and it’s more Western context she is doing something, but it’s much more needed. Okay, this is, I think, an important point.
This is ISKCON, and this is the Krishna Consciousness Movement. So, what I mean by that is, the Krishna Consciousness Movement is much bigger than ISKCON. And much of the Western outreach is happening through the Krishna Consciousness Movement.
It’s not happening through ISKCON. By ISKCON, I mean the official structure of ISKCON, the official temple, the official management hierarchy. So, for ISKCON itself to take up things, you know, our leaders are caught in many roles and responsibilities.
It’s like, are the gurus meant to be brahmanas or kshatriyas? Are they meant to be spiritual guides or are they meant to be managers? Most of the time, many gurus are doing both things. So, it’s apart from vision casting for preaching, ISKCON as an institution is otherwise mostly in a firefighting mode. It is that, you know, when a big crisis comes, you try to solve it.
So, to expect ISKCON itself to take up this as an issue, it’s difficult. But if somebody takes it up as an issue, they will get support. They may not necessarily get the full backing of the institution, but I don’t think anybody is going to oppose it.
So, as a movement grows, what happens is that a lot of devotees make individual initiatives for things. Like ISKCON doesn’t have much centralised initiative for say children’s outreach. We have youth outreach, youth ministry is there.
But congregational devotees know it’s important. And they take responsibility. Some devotees have written books, some devotees have done some things.
So, I think this has to come from somewhere outside the institution. Mental health. If devotees take initiative, then it will move forward.
And there are devotees who are taking it forward. But there are many things which are needed in our movement which we cannot wait for the leadership to take it. A leader has to find an idea that there is a problem.
Or they say no. I don’t think what is missing is only Krishna consciousness. I think a few leaders may do that.
But what is happening now is that mental health has… There is one atheist, he said that, when it comes to money, everyone belongs to the same religion. So, what he meant by that is, let us say, tomorrow somebody ends their life on a scorned property. And they decide not to believe that scorned is something to be followed.
It would be a huge case. And it has happened. At times, unfortunately.
So, our leaders are at least financial risk. They are aware of that. So, it’s unfortunate that money only makes us move.
Our monetary consequences make us more reputational consequences. So, it’s like… Kshatriyas, they are moved by reputational consequences. Vaishyas, they are moved by financial consequences.
Ramanas will be moved by intellectual foresight. That this is going to be a problem in the future. I am just giving a very simplistic understanding of what I mean.
But I think, I don’t think, at least I don’t see that there will be huge opposition to this. If somebody takes the initiative for doing this, they will. When I was talking with Guruji and Jagatani Mataji, they are staying in Perth, not in the temple, but they have got a small place separately.
Jagatani Mataji has created a very nice sacred India gallery. Even Modi tweeted about it. I was like, no, it’s a very beautiful replica of Vrindavan, Mayapur.
Anyway, she was telling me that there is inside ISKCON, there is outside ISKCON and there is besides ISKCON. So, what she meant by besides ISKCON is, if you are inside ISKCON, then you are controlled by the institutional machinery. And so she said, I had always a tendency to do something artistic.
But when I was living in the Vrindavan temple, if I ask for some time for art, people were saying, there is so much beauty worship to do, there is so much cooking to do, there is so much preaching to do. I felt as if I was taking something from ISKCON. And I used to feel guilty about that.
I said, now we have got our own place, I have done this artistic preaching and artistic service. And now ISKCON sends its devotees to come and see this and learn about Vishnu Maharaj. And many other people, many other tourists also come over here.
So, if we go outside ISKCON, then we lose connection with the world. If we are inside, then whatever is the leadership or the management’s vision, only that gets done. But if you are besides ISKCON, we can have our space and we can do what we want to do.
So, I think a lot of good work is happening besides ISKCON. And when that starts having some result, then it gets recognised and then it may be replicated. I would say the whole… or somebody decides ISKCON.
But now… Actually, the need for hospitals, where you can have Maya food, they are trying to start something. Other places… It is a difficult model to replicate. But… So, that’s my broad understanding.
Leaders, I don’t think they will seriously oppose it today. They may not fully encourage it. Generally, in any institutional setup, there are two things.
There is freedom and there is facility. So, both rarely come together. If we want freedom to do something, we won’t get the institutional facilities.
If we want facilities, we won’t get freedom. So, it depends on each individual, what they feel they need the most. If I want to teach my Bhagavad Gita in my own way, if the temple has a particular set of… Okay, you do the succession course.
Then I may not get the temple’s support. Temple may not advertise that way of doing the course. But, that doesn’t mean I can’t do it myself.
I can’t… It’s unreasonable to demand freedom and facility both. The facility will be used according to the vision of the leaders. But if somebody has the… They want, they have a particular vision, they have the freedom, they create the facilities.
Prabhupada did not use any of the facilities of Gaudiya Mutt. Actually, when Prabhupada went to America, he had no intention of starting his school. He saw himself as a follower of his Guru Maharaj.
And in one sense, he was just carrying on the Gaudiya Mutt. But when the Gaudiya Mutt gave him new support, rather they tried to undermine what he was doing, then if he would have used that name, that would have created legal complications for him. So, he used a different name.
So, I think we should stop here for now. So, thank you very much. And I am so grateful that I could be of some service.
And there are many issues that I am also learning about. And if there is anything which I have spoken that is… that you feel is provocative or improper, please let me know. Or you can let Krishnendran go now.
He will let me know in a more rational way. And I will try to improve myself also. Thank you very much.
As well as Radhanath Swami Maharaj ki, Srila Prabhupada ki, Gaura Bhakta Bommila Pooja. I bow to you. Many devotees were going there all the time.
A lot of them said that they were hoping that this could have been a longer session.

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

So, actually with respect to outreach in the west, there are some areas where people seem to be receptive. So, whatever I observe, it seems like sattva is rising in the west in these four areas. One is yoga, Maharaj is focusing on the eco village and the yoga school, then other is veganism, then another is environmental consciousness and the fourth is mental health and mindfulness.

Mindfulness and broadly the mental health area. Where people and sattva is rising means that people are looking for more holistic solutions. So, people are becoming more and more open to spirituality and Buddhism has capitalized on this big time, we have not been able to capitalize on it so much.

Yoga, bhakti yogis have not capitalized but lot of other yoga people have capitalized on it. So, specifically about mindfulness and mental health, it is an increasing problem and there are ways in which Krishna consciousness can offer wisdom that can solve mental health problems. There are also ways in which if Krishna consciousness is misunderstood or misapplied, it can aggravate people's mental health problems also.

So, both can happen. So, specifically I will talk about the recent discussion I had with Maharaj. There was a case of one center in the western world and their devotees were trying to do western outreach under one spiritual master and when they were doing this, the leader over there was an Indian who was doing western outreach.

This was all Matajis, mostly Matajis in the center, also Matajis of the central layer. So, she became a little strong or harsh with the people whom she was guiding and training and that person felt hurt and in the west emotional abuse is a very tenuous thing. It is very difficult to define also.

But anyway, she felt emotionally abused. Now, I will talk about some cases where actually it has also happened. But I will tell you the specific case that happened and then how it escalated and what happened after that.

And then what Maharaj said. So, anyway this case, this girl who was a westerner, her father was a very influential person in the west and then she wanted to do a court case against this consciousness. So, she went to the temple.

I was abused in the temple, not in the temple, in the western office center. Then that didn't work. For whatever reasons, she decided to go not in the legal way, but the public media way.

So, somehow she had some contact with New York Times. So, an article was published in New York Times talking about this whole issue. But then our devotees came to know about it and then the devotee who was accused of it, she also hired a very high-powered lawyer because this could become a libel case.

And then that lawyer wrote a letter to New York Times and with almost every accusation that was leveled against her, her response was put in square brackets. So, eventually the article that came in square brackets, her response came out. Overall, the article was not very negative, but the end result was that the GBC said that that center should be closed down and that particular Mataji was told you should not do any more preaching for at least two years and you should get training in emotional, what is emotional abuse and how to avoid emotional abuse.

And her spiritual master was told that you should encourage all your disciples to do courses in this direction. And in order to not single him out, it was decided in GBC's decision that all gurus should take training in a course in emotional abuse. Now, how much it was implemented, I do not know, but that's what happened.

So, then I talked with Maharaja about it. So, the guru whose disciple this was, that guru is a close friend of Maharaj. So, when I talked with Maharaj, Maharaj knew everything about the issue.

So, Maharaj is so perceptive. Maharaj said, I know that Mataji also is doing outreach. He said that she was accused of emotional abuse.

But the way she was treated by his authorities, that was also emotional abuse on her. So, he, but then he said that I understand from the leader's perspective, the devotee who was in charge, the GBC member who had, basically the devotees, when they got the complaint, they had some inter-religious professionals, some devotees, some secular people. They formed a committee, they did an investigation.

And when the reports came out, then they took some action. So, the GBC member took the action and said, I know him also. And he has to face the, he has to face the western media.

He will have to face us in court cases. He will have to, the president has gone in court cases, this will become the court case. So, he said, I, when I am sitting in Mumbai and I am in Radhashtami classes, I am not facing the American media.

So, I cannot judge him and say that what he did was wrong. But he said that I know her and I will offer her all my support that I can individually. At the same time, he said, our devotees, whenever they are in preaching, they need to be talking with the people whom they are preaching, not just talking to them.

Talking with, not talking to. Like you are talking with them, you should hear from them, the way we are instructing, what is the impact of that on people. So, now there are, after this whole thing happened, this has been going on for several years and after this whole thing happened, I studied a little bit of emotional abuse and it is that many of the things which you normally consider in Indian society, a normal discipline, they are considered emotional abuse.

Now, are they or are they not? It is difficult. It is, by that definition, I have been emotionally abused throughout my life. I am not trivializing emotional abuse, it is a real thing.

But that definition itself, it is very, very vague that anything can be included in it, almost. So, Maharaj said that, you know, I asked him, how do we ensure that the discipline does not become emotional abuse? So, he said that, you know, there has to be, the leaders have to be aware and they have to be talking with the people. Only when they are talking, then it won't be seen as emotional abuse.

So, there are two, three different cases where sometimes the philosophy is abused and philosophy can come off in an emotionally abusive way. So, I know a couple of cases, I am quite fond of them, the way they happened. So, I was at one devotee's house in one country, staying with them and then this couple, they said, we want to talk with you.

I said, definitely. So, this Mataji, she was in a community, the Mataji was Western and the Prabhu was Indian. And I could try to see whether or not this Prabhu actually could even speak English fluently.

And this Mataji was like an M.A. in English literature, very fluent in English. And it was a mess. They have separated now, unfortunately.

And the Mataji has left this school also. But I met her when she was in Canada. She is favourable, but anyway.

So, she was doing a lot of Buddhist tuition. And everyone was encouraged to do Buddhist tuition. Then she got married and she got pregnant.

And when she got pregnant, now naturally she couldn't go for Buddhist tuition. And then while she was pregnant, for some time, she had a miscarriage. And then she called her ashram leader.

She used to stay in ashram, because women also have ashram in the West, in some places. But the first thing her ashram leader told her, Krishna has removed this obstacle for you to do Buddhist tuition. She said that.

I knew this same, this Mataji also. I talked with her about doctor. I will come to that part.

But she said, I was so disgusted. I just mentally turned off from her. She says, I stopped going to the temple.

I stopped going there. Her husband was not a Srivastava background. So she said, I will go to Srivastava temple over there.

And then when I talked with this Mataji, she said, you know, I was just only trying to help her see something positive. That when Narada's mother passed away, Narada saw this, he has been freed from that entanglement, so that he can practice Bhakti. So, I told her, there is a difference in the situation.

She said, no, it's similar. I said, no, that is a conclusion Narada himself has arrived at. Somebody else, coming, giving you that conclusion, what happens is, it is, so she says, Mataji, just a minute, my first thought came, is Krishna God who kills babies so that his books can be distributed? You know, what kind of, what kind of God is this? So, it is, sometimes when people had some adversity happening in their life, at that time, their concern, their own very faith in God will be shaken.

And we try to tell them this is a spiritual opportunity made by Krishna. They just would have come to me. They just not speaking to me at all.

That means their concern is that, you know, you just have your agenda, and I am an instrument in your agenda. You don't care for me at all. You don't care for my emotions at all.

So, this is, now the intention might not have an emotional use. But this kind of statements are horrible. And basically, there is this whole genre of, like, emotionally intelligent spirituality.

Like, emotional intelligence is talked about in the professional workplace. But emotional intelligence spirituality means, that people's emotions are a real part of who they are. Our own emotions are also a part of who we are.

And if our spirituality just overrides our emotions, or sidelines our emotions, or suppresses our emotions, then that can be very unhealthy. And eventually people explode over time. It is explode or implode.

Explode, they yell at others. Implode, they collapse within themselves. So, with respect to emotionally intelligent spirituality, the key what happens is that, at that one point, I think, mental health is a separate topic.

We will come to that shortly. But what happens is, the leader has a particular mission. And they may be genuinely wanting to serve Krishna with that mission.

But they have that mission, and everyone seems to just get reduced to a tool for that mission. And what that person is going through, that they just don't care for. And when that happens, people just get lost completely.

People get alienated quite a bit. So, Maharaj told me that, there are so many other experiences of this. It is a misapplication of spiritual principles, where sometimes somebody becomes very fanatical.

So now, the fanatical is, it is not that the leader is a bad person. But what the leader does is that, they just don't consider the emotions of the person over there. Consider the situation of the person over there.

And this kind of spirituality ends up hurting people. So, for many years, within our movement, the emotions were largely seen as maya. You are just being sentimental.

Get out of the mental platform. Get out of the sentimental platform. So, what you feel doesn't matter at all.

Just do and you will be purified. There is some truth to that. But we cannot say that it is true for all emotions.

It is like a little hot breath. Little bit heat, we can tolerate. But if, say, below us there is an oven, and we are sitting on the oven and it is like a furnace, we are feeling burning, something has to be done about it.

So, some amount of tolerance of physical discomfort we can do. Some amount of tolerance of emotional discomfort we can do. But if it goes beyond that, then it becomes a serious problem.

And if the emotions themselves are treated as maya, then everything associated with that is just dismissed. And if somebody is feeling hurt, somebody is feeling depressed, somebody is feeling lonely, it is all just maya. That is how it is treated.

But it is not like that. The mind is a reality in itself. The body, mind and soul, each one of them is a reality.

So, now with respect to mental health, I have talked with many ISKCON leaders and with Maharaj also. So, I will first start with what Maharaj has said, and then I will talk about what a few other leaders have talked about. So, what Maharaj has said is that, that for mental health, whatever is required, we should encourage devotees to do that.

It is not that we should make, if somehow, chanting or devotional practices do not help them, then it is not that we should make them feel that they are being unfaithful to Krishna or Bhakti. If devotional practices help them, wonderful. If they don't, we don't come in the way of whatever they need to do to restore their emotional health.

So, the Maharaj told me that he feels that every urban center of ISKCON should have some mental health professionals affiliated with it. That these are people who we recommend as a movement. So, the idea is that Christians or Catholics are very systematic about this.

Because the mental health professionals can sometimes give advice which is completely opposite to the religious principles. So, they say that these are sanctions, these are approved, or at least they are not disapproved by the church. So, now we may have some at some place, like there are some devotees who may offer mental health care.

But it is not very well developed. The problem is quite extensive. And you know there are three different things over here.

So, this is the Amit Maharaj's opinion. Now, there are other devotees who are working in this direction. Hanuman Prasad Maharaj, he is the Guru of Radhika Ramana Prabhu.

He is doing extensive research on Kaalyang and Bhakti Sankhya Thakur. What both of them say about the mind. Kaalyang is a prominent western philosopher.

Kaalyang, Kaalyang, Kaalyang. It's a J, it's a Y actually, yeah. So, it's young, Kaalyang.

So, he said that many devotees who have talked with him on mental health problems, he has asked them to read Kaalyang. And it has helped them quite a bit. So, mental health is a serious issue.

And it's to say that Krishna Consciousness alone will solve mental health problems. Now, it is like saying Krishna Consciousness alone will solve physical health problems. Now, some ways, yeah, if a person's lifestyle is unregulated, their diet improves, their sattva improves.

So, physical health can be improved. But it's not that physical health, all problems of physical health will be solved by Krishna Consciousness. Similarly, it's not that all problems of mental health will be solved by Krishna Consciousness.

So, I could go more into this, but this was broadly. So, there are three things over here. It's like Krishna Consciousness and mental health.

So, you could have three interactions. Krishna Consciousness solves mental health problems. Krishna Consciousness is independent.

That means that you have mental health issues, you have Krishna Consciousness. You grow Krishna Consciousness by certain practices, you address mental health issues by certain practices. And then, this Krishna Consciousness causes mental health problems.

So, unfortunately, the third also happens. Especially, I think this happens when there is people with incompatible values. Like somebody who is a very hierarchical conservative, and that person is training somebody who is a very, who has a liberal orientation.

And that person has a need for autonomy. We had a yatra. So, we had senior brahmacharis.

And Shri Shamananda asked three senior brahmacharis a question. And if some brahmachari wants to do a service, different from what the authorities tell him to do. So, how do you see such a brahmachari? So, the three senior brahmacharis said, first, you should be a musical.

Secondly, he said, creative. Third, potential leader. So, exact same behavior.

So, you know, somebody is very, very conservative. They say, you want to do what you want to do? That's just being musical. So, if somebody has a strong need for autonomy, they leave their space to do things, and if they have a leader who just doesn't give them space, then they will end up getting mental health problems.

Because they will start feeling guilty. And, oh, you know, I'm not being Krishna conscious, I'm not being sincere enough, this or that. So, sometimes, unfortunately, Krishna consciousness can cause mental health problems also.

I could speak more, but are there any reflections, thoughts on this? Yes, ma'am. Many a times, after a woman delivers a child, the husband is very fanatic. He expects her to chant 16 rounds with the same, you know, the same way that she was doing before she even conceived.

And without offering any help from his side, and it causes a lot of mental trauma to the woman. So many cases of this sort. Or sometimes, when you are married, sometimes, many times, devotee boys, they get married to somebody from their village, because the parents have told them that they should do so, and somebody has told them that devotee girls are not good.

You get married to a village boy, but they are not good, because they are not so, especially Bombay girls, because they are not so submissive as the village girls. Strong impression, because village girls are equally, girls are girls. So, when they get married, they expect them to be on the same level as them.

They don't give them their space, each one from your space, join the race at your own pace. That is just perfect for everybody. But people don't understand, when there is so much pressure, without making any emotional investment in their relationship, and that causes a lot of trauma.

People go into depression, and they suffer a lot, because of such behaviors. Yes, it's true, unfortunately. And sometimes, even, like, in the saffron, and the first cup, if that clarity is not there, in the saffron, it also depends on their upbringing, how they have been brought up.

There is one incident, many years back, one of the devotees, who was cooking, there was some program, she was cooking for the guests, and the Prabhuji was holding the child. So, the person, the leader, the brahmachari leader, he said, look, such a big program is going on, there is so much seva, and he is holding the child. So, such a wrong impression on that person's mind, the next time he will feel, I should not carry the child.

The wife is doing seva, so he is holding the child. So, like this, so many things happen, which then disturb the mind of the person who is doing the seva, and even the wife's mind was disturbed, for many days together. So, if they are not educated, as you rightly said, emotional intelligence is a must.

And I think, in the Bhagavad Gita, every chapter of Krishna speaking about emotional intelligence, and about compassion, and empathy, and being tranquil, and siddha prajna, and samigriha, everywhere he is mentioning this. So, we don't even need the western philosophy for that. This Bhagavad Gita is enough to understand that we need to be emotionally very, very stable.

Not only when it comes to ourselves, but even when it comes to others. Sensitivity for ourselves and for others. So, generally you are emotionally sensitive for yourself, but you can be very tough when you are dealing with others.

Thank you for your instructions. So, unfortunately, that point of emotional stability, I have seen it often used as a way of rejecting emotional sensitivity. Many devotees don't see it as you be emotionally intelligent.

It is that this whole emotional sensitivity, you are just too hypersensitive. Actually, you should be going beyond all this. Siddha Prajna, you are studying, that means you should be feeling all these emotions.

Actually, there is a historical reason also for this. Our movement is like, when we come from one country to another, suddenly there is a jet lag. So, we are still suffering from a generational jet lag.

Generational jet lag means what I mean is that our first generation was almost entirely monastic. Monastic means everybody lived in a monastery, ashram. So, now the second generation, they are mostly congregation.

But what has happened is, much of what Prabhupada has written in his books, in Prabhupada's books there are, you could say, there is something which is timeless, but there is something which is also timely. He is speaking at that time to people who are there. The timeless principle and the timely instructions also.

So, what has happened? The definition of seriousness in bhakti is equated with monastic standards of bhakti. So, monastic standards is, when you wake up at a particular time, do this mangal aarti, do this, do that, do that. I was in our community in America and this devotee was a brahmachari and he was very serious brahmachari and he got married and then he used to go, just like he was a brahmachari, before he was a brahmachari, at 4.30 he would go for the morning program, attend the bhagavatam class, come back, just prasad and then he would come back home and he would just go back to the temple in the evening also.

And he was all the time spending in the temple. Within one and a half years, his wife left him. He says, do this.

So, she said that he is, you know, I just felt like I was his unpaid maid at home to take care of him. He was never there for me for anything. And he said, I did exactly what I was told to do and I followed Krishna consciousness the way I was told to do and I tried being a serious grahastha.

So, what has happened is the idea of a serious grahastha is be like a brahmachari or a sanyasi. No, a serious grahastha is be a grahastha. So, that generational jet lag is there.

And because of that, this problem does come up. So, the way, how a grahastha should be, grahasthas can take inspiration from brahmacharis but brahmacharis cannot be models for grahasthas. The grahastha be grahastha models.

So, I think those who come from brahmachari life to grahastha life, it is, actually after I started travelling abroad because in the west mostly we don't have temples and we don't have so many places to stay in the temple. So, I started staying in the houses of many grahasthas. That's how actually I had to recalibrate my whole understanding of Krishna consciousness.

I saw how busy grahastha life is, how many responsibilities are there. Before it was all this material entanglement. You can't call it material entanglement.

Responsibility has to be done out of that. So, I think it is emotional intelligence you could say but it is more like we have a problematic definition of success in bhakti or even a problematic definition of seriousness in bhakti. So, because of that definition, people may be well-intentioned but they end up making a mess of things.

So, all that and hopefully if there is more interaction, there is more understanding and things will change. Yes. So, in the Indian context this is overall the example is the best.

Sorry, can I just add one more thing? There is one boy, he is a gurukul. He is now a favourable, very intelligent boy. He is not a devotee but very favourable.

So, he says that my prominent memory of my childhood, defining memory of my childhood is my parents' constant disappointment that I was not the reincarnation of Prahlad Maharaj. So, very articulate, very biting. So, he says that is my prominent memory of my childhood.

Yes, please. So, in the Indian context clearly there are some things which are absolutely necessary emotional stability, emotional understanding, sensitivity, not all. But can't there be differences in the nuances? When you talk about requirements, expectations, standards here in India versus the rest.

Because it could be perhaps that this could be taken as a license by many nurses to be quite relaxed and simple. Family life is very important. We have been putting it in a very high priority above spiritual life, service and everything.

In the West it is a different thing. In India you have given some examples which are on the extreme side. It could be misquoted.

The point I am making here is that I agree with you fully. When we give a license people can give an angel they take a man. That is always possible.

That is a slippery slope. Those who are going to do that even without an excuse they will do it. It is just that in Krishna consciousness there are bonds.

The bond is with Krishna and there are boundaries. The boundaries means you need to live within these boundaries. Now to some extent what boundaries should a devotee live in? Say for I joined in 1998 probably till 2009 or something I didn't read a single news item because the internet was not there.

And I considered my ignorance to be a sign of my transcendence. But then Narayan also tells a joke when he started college preaching in 1967-68 the Vietnam war was going on and America was drafting people forcibly constructing them so that they would go and fight because the young Americans were not ready to go. And many young people were actually saying that I am a Catholic monk, I am a Buddhist monk and this.

They were using their religious affiliation as a way of dodging the draft. So Maharaj he said you are preaching in 1973-74, no in 1979-80 he started preaching so he also spoke that you know better join the temple otherwise you will be drafted. People said that draft ended 10 years ago.

So the point is that Maharaj was completely in his own world at that time in his world with Krishna of course. So the boundaries now what boundaries, who can live within? If we impose that too much then people feel suffocated and then they start thinking this is the only way to practice Krishna consciousness and if you can't then there is no space for me in Krishna consciousness. So it's difficult because we want to give space to those who need the space but we don't want that to become justification for everyone to go down down a further standard.

So how do you do that? Like I met one boy and and Maharaj gave me this example of how there are there are many people who he said that there is one devotee here we have a temple, we have a bhakti center in New York and around that we have two other temples we have one temple in New Jersey, two temples in New Jersey so there is a temple president, vice-president his son, he is an American Indian now or Indian-American, Indian born in America and brought up in America so he, although his father is the vice-president of that temple he says I don't feel comfortable in that temple and he travels one and a half hours to come to the bhakti center he says I feel that atmosphere is much more welcoming and accepting so now and his father would much rather he comes to the temple because the whole community is there but he said that I just feel constantly judged and devalued over there in the bhakti center I feel accepted so he talked to Maharaj also about this Maharaj said that if bhakti center had not been there then he would have probably left bhakti he would have thought that this is the only way to practice bhakti so I asked him what does it mean to feel judged so he said that whenever I go to the temple everybody asks me how many rounds I am chanting I went to the bhakti center, nobody asked me how many rounds I am chanting so just okay you can come and practice bhakti now those who ask him also how many rounds you are chanting they may be with good intention but just people feel pressured by that the small things, so my point is that we want to give space for different people who want to practice bhakti in different ways but for different levels now we want people who are more serious to go down to a less serious level I don't think so but there are many who cannot practice at that level for whatever reason and we don't want to lose them am I addressing your point? so the challenge would be to define the importance in the Indian context and in the western context yeah I think that's something I think we will have to go case to case or as it is can we really differentiate that in this age when the whole world is a village because of the technology and India so can we really differentiate any longer maybe 5-10 years more later on I don't think it's going to be whether it is Indian context or western we will get back to what Krishna said good question it's interesting that in the west in many ways Indians are exerting their Indianness more now maybe because India is rising on the geopolitical scene so Indians are more confident, less ashamed now in what way they exert their Indianness that may vary but I think the differences themselves will not go away entirely but they may not be conceived in the same way as they were conceived in the past so Martin Luther King we know him as a civil rights activist in America he was actually also a Baptist priest so he said that the church hour is the most divided hour in America what he meant by that is that in a church people like to worship with people from their backgrounds so there is a very successful church in New York they have 8 services one service for white Americans one service for black Americans one service for Chinese people one service for Irish people one service for Indian people and they reset the entire ambience the pastor will speak in that particular language they will have food in that language they will have music in that particular culture they reset the church ambience according to that so basically the point is that when people are doing some worship they want to generally feel culturally comfortable so to what extent will the identity be exerted now if we say culture in terms of dress how many people are going to wear the same dress that maybe one generation ago people were wearing that may not be the same but culture in terms of music I think a lot of, at least here in India a lot of young Indian girls learn Bharatanatyam, Kathakali and it's become a big thing and it also gives them a sense of cultural pride and they perform in their colleges they spend hours and hours, years they spend dedicating your parents can't pressurize beyond a particular time they have to have that taste so I think culture is being exerted but maybe not in exactly the way it was traditionally some aspects, these girls doing Kathakali dances or Bharatanatyam dances still may have girlfriends they may have boyfriends so they may take something from that culture something from our culture so it's not that the traditional culture will be completely rejected but some parts of it may be retained, some may not be does it make sense? towards the end of what you were speaking about emotional health you mentioned the fact that Bhakti, Krishna Consciousness can become a cause for lack of emotional health there you spoke about that if you push someone too much and they are not ready for it then it can cause guilt and so many other things now I would like to hear from you that as counselors we are expected to work with devotees and gently nudge them to take Krishna Consciousness more seriously and sometimes we see people kind of slipping away kind of drifting it doesn't happen abruptly, it happens over a period of time we see them drifting or losing their focus in Krishna Consciousness and their many other priorities so at that time when we speak to them it's a very weird conflict because if we push too hard yes, it can be seen as emotional abuse but if we don't push then we are kind of condoning or accepting that they are drifting away they are not going to change their path if we just leave them where they are so what is the right way to balance without causing emotional abuse at the cost of trying to bring them back into the mainstream based on what we discussed today in the mainstream itself the definition has become blurred so if you just help to understand there is one place in America which is the place where retired Prabhupada disciples stay one state in America there is no state tax so it's cheap to stay there there are many Prabhupada disciples and many of those disciples it's known that they don't chant 16 vows it's known that they are not necessarily following all the vows but when Maharaj goes there there are quite a few devotees so I know one prominent leader in London who has now more or less said I have resigned from Krishna Consciousness so when Maharaj goes Maharaj spends time with him I don't know what Maharaj talks with him but he is a very intelligent person and somebody can be intelligent and leave Krishna Consciousness I thought that just because they are leaving Krishna Consciousness there are issues see again from the right wing perspective what happens if somebody leaves Krishna Consciousness the system is right, the individual is wrong that's the idea when any devotee would bloop in our ashram we would all come together and we would have a collective fortifying session let's sleep in jamba I saw him stealing Mahaprashad you know I saw him committing vaishnav ratha because of that he left he is a bad person, we are all nice so like that we would pat ourselves on the back we are right, he is bad so the rightist way is that the system is perfect the individual is wrong and now the philosophy itself may be perfect but the institution may not be and there are times the left way is this whole setup is wrong and the individual is right therefore the whole setup has to be changed the truth generally is somewhere in between at least when I have talked with a devotee I have a good relationship with him the London devotee, I have not talked so much with the Alachua devotees he has a very warm relationship with Maharaj I don't think Maharaj is pushing him to start chanting with rounds you could say this is the way Maharaj acts I don't say that Maharaj is his own person and he deals with people in a particular way I was once talking with Giriraj Maharaj and Giriraj Maharaj told me whenever I meet him, sorry I am wandering off but I will come back to your point again that Giriraj Maharaj, tell me about your interactions with Radhanath Maharaj so Giriraj Maharaj told me I noticed that Radhanath Maharaj never gives you any instructions he only gives suggestions so I never thought about it then I asked three of my senior Godbrothers why did Maharaj, when I am travelling abroad which place should I go, which place should I go Maharaj said you can spend more time over here he doesn't say stay only at this place then I asked three different Godbrothers and all three said Maharaj doesn't think you are surrendered so that's why he is not giving you instructions the second Godbrother said that Maharaj doesn't want to bind you with instructions which you may not be able to follow third he said that Maharaj will encourage but Maharaj will not insist on anything so you need to see his encouragement as an instruction I would say that these three set of explanations tell me more about that person than about Maharaj but what I have seen is that Maharaj tries to maintain the relationship and certainly with the relationship we would like the person to practice bhakti but I don't know how much there is one devotee in how much Maharaj will push there is one devotee in Galachia he had a severely not just autistic child the child had cerebral palsy he is a disciple of Maharaj and multiple health problems basically it was like when the mother was in the hospital the hospital made a mess of everything and because of that the child was born seriously with serious problems so he wrote to Maharaj and asked Maharaj that should I see this as our karma and accept it or should we sue the hospital so Maharaj said that you have to take care of your child and if you can get some support in taking care of your child then see that support as something which will help you in your service so then he sued the hospital and he has got life long support now so now in that context he said that when this whole thing was going on he said I had a child to take care of I had a court case to attend to related to your point he said I just could not chant my rounds so he said I wrote to Maharaj he is a son of a disciple of Prabhupada so Maharaj is quite close to him so Maharaj said I just don't have time to chant any rounds not any rounds, I chant my 16 rounds so Maharaj said that I trust the sincerity of your heart and Maharaj did not comment anything about his not chanting 16 rounds so not that he is condoning it but he is neither condemning him for it so it is, life is demanding at times and sometimes people are dealing with complex situations so you know some people are like, in the west I have seen people are very insightful another boy told me that throughout my childhood I never felt as if my parents loved me they loved the idea of me being a trophy of their Krishna consciousness that they could show in the community what a wonderful devotee my child is so they just wanted me to be a trophy it is a sadly insightful perspective so people at such times when they are going through difficulties they really have this question do you care for me as a human being or do you care for me simply as a success story of your preaching so people need to feel we care for them as a person and yes we would like them to be Krishna conscious but if they feel that we don't care for them as a person then they will go away from us and they will go away from Krishna consciousness also that's the best part with this mental and emotional issues now taking more or less center stage I think it's not only amongst the youth but because of the stress or pressures it's also there within the devotee community so it may be very important that our leaders, counsellors also get some sort of education in what really it means because these are very subtle issues so it can be brushed aside just like sometime back when we started this Posh we have a team over here I don't think people really believe that this is a real issue within the community and it has such a broad connotation that it covers many acts which should be considered under this particular umbrella similarly mental and emotional issues also yes Krishna consciousness will definitely help but beyond that maybe you need medical treatment you need medicines, you need so many other things to be treated which I think as devotees who are coming being there in the movement for so many years probably we are not fully aware of these things now we are becoming aware because of what is happening to the younger generation so it may also be important for our education for our counsellors, for others to be aware what actually scientifically it means and maybe within families we ourselves are going through that there is somebody in the family who is a devotee for so many years but still going through that I think that education is very much required there is, some devotees have started this there is an online forum called Karmakare which is some devotees Rampur Mata ji has started an online forum it is more customised for western outreach or rather she is a westerner and more western context she is doing something but it is much more rooted and this is I think an important point this is ISKCON and this is the Krishna Consciousness Movement so what I mean by that is the Krishna Consciousness Movement is much bigger than ISKCON and much of the western outreach is happening through the Krishna Consciousness Movement it is not happening through ISKCON by ISKCON I mean the official structures of ISKCON the official temples, the official management hierarchy so for ISKCON itself to take up things our leaders are caught in many roles and responsibilities it is like are the gurus meant to be brahmanas or kshatriyas are they meant to be spiritual guides or are they meant to be managers most of the time many gurus are doing both things so it is apart from vision casting for preaching ISKCON as an institution is otherwise mostly in a firefighting mode it is that when a big crisis comes we try to solve it so to expect ISKCON itself to take up this as an issue it is difficult but if somebody takes it up as an issue they will get support they may not necessarily get the full backing of the institution but I don't think anybody is going to oppose it so as a movement grows what happens is that lot of devotees may make individual initiatives for things ISKCON doesn't have much centralized initiative for say children's outreach we have youth outreach, youth ministry is there but congregational devotees know it is important and they take responsibility some devotees have written books, some devotees have done some things so I think this has to come from somewhere outside the institution mental health if devotees take initiative then it will move forward and there are devotees who are taking it forward but there are many things which are needed in our movement which we cannot wait for the leadership to take it but the leader has to find the idea that there is a problem or they say no I don't think what is missing is only Krishna consciousness I think a few leaders may do that but what is happening now is that mental health has there is one atheist he said that when it comes to money everyone belongs to the same religion so what he meant by that is let us say tomorrow somebody ends their life on ISKCON property and as you said they knew that ISKCON did something to them it would be a huge case and it has happened at times unfortunately so our leaders are at least financial risk they are aware of that so it is unfortunate that money only makes us move our monetary consequences make us move our reputational consequences so it is like Kshatriyas they are moved by reputational consequences Vaishyas they are moved by financial consequences Ramanas will be moved by intellectual foresight that this is going to be a problem in the future but I am just giving a very simplistic understanding over here but I think at least I don't see that there will be huge opposition to this if somebody takes the initiative for doing this they will and I was talking with Guruji and Jagatani Mataji they are staying in Perth not in the temple but they have got a small place separately and Jagatani Mataji has created a very nice sacred India gallery even Modi tweeted about it and said it is a very beautiful replica of Vrindavan Mayapur she has created over there small anyways she was telling me that there is inside ISKCON there is outside ISKCON and there is besides ISKCON so so what she meant by besides ISKCON is if you are inside ISKCON then you are controlled by the institutional machinery and so she said I had always a tendency to do something artistic but when I was living in the Vrindavan temple if I asked for some time for art there is so much beauty worship to do there is so much cooking to do there is so much preaching to do I felt as if I was taking something from ISKCON and I used to feel guilty about that I said now I have got my own place I have done this artistic preaching and artistic service and now ISKCON sends its devotees to come and see this and learn about Vishnu Bhaja and many other people many other tourists also come over here so if we go outside ISKCON then we lose connection with the movement if we are inside then whatever is the leadership or the management's vision only that gets done but if you are besides ISKCON we can have our space and we can do what we want to do so I think a lot of good work is happening besides ISKCON and when that starts having some result then it gets recognized and then it may be replicated I would say the whole Imagine the Bakhtiyar hospital or something started besides ISKCON but now actually the need for hospitals where you can have Maya food they are trying to start something other places it is a difficult model to replicate but so that's my broad understanding that leaders I don't think they will seriously oppose it today they may not fully encourage it generally in any institutional setup there are two things there is freedom and there is facility so both rarely come together if we want freedom to do something we won't get the institutional facility if we want facilities we won't get freedom so it depends on each individual what they feel they need the most if I want to teach my Bhagavad Gita in my own way if the temple has a particular set of you do the succession course then I may not get the temple's support temple may not advertise that way of doing the course but that doesn't mean I can't do it myself and I can't it's it was unreasonable to demand freedom and facility both the facility will be used according to the vision of the leaders but if somebody has the they want they have a particular vision they have the freedom they create the facilities Prabhupada did not use any of the facilities of Gaudiya Mata actually when Prabhupada went to America he had no intention of starting ISKCON he saw himself as a follower of his Guru Maharaj and in one sense he was just carrying on the Gaudiya Mata but when the Gaudiya Mata gave him new support rather than try to undermine what he was doing then if he would have used that name that would have created legal complications for him so he used a different name so I think we should stop here so thank you very much and I am so grateful that I could give some service and there are many many issues that I am also learning about and if there is anything which I have spoken that is that you feel is provocative or improper please let me know or you can let Krishnendra Gupta know he will let me know in a his own Vaishnav way and I will try to improve myself also thank you very much as well as Radhanath Swami Maharaj Ki Jai Srila Prabhupada Ki Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai.