Part 5 – Markine Bhagavad Dharma talks || Chaitanya Charan

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Thank you very much.
Hare Krishna. Thank you for coming today. And we continue our discussion on the Markine Bhagavad Dharma.
And you’re coming right into the middle of the song over here. So, Prabhupada is talking over here about how if you desire this to happen, if you desire this to happen, then it will happen. Now, that raises the question, if you desire the deliverance, then the deliverance will happen.
So, then the question comes up, will Krishna not desire anyone’s deliverance? Will Krishna always desire the deliverance of everyone? So, yes, that is true. But exactly how things work, exactly how things work is very difficult to understand. So, yesterday we were discussing about how there is the push and the pull principle.
How many of you were there yesterday, I said? Okay, many of you. Thank you. So, you talk about how when we try to grow spiritually, we talk about the example of a planet.
This is a planet above, which can pull us upward, like the earth, if an object is going to be catapulted out of the earth, propelled out of the earth, then there is the earth’s gravity pull, if this is the earth, then around it is the earth’s gravity pull, and there’s some higher object, and there is its gravity pull. So, from here, we will need to push ourselves up. And once we come here, then we will start feeling the pull over here.
But there are special places in the world where that push from Krishna’s side may be, that pull from Krishna’s side may be felt even while we are in this world. So, this is Krishna, this is Maya. So, that is where, for example, if there’s a temple in the middle of a city, then there the pull of Maya is there, but there the pull of Krishna is also there.
So, in many ways, what Prabhupada is saying, Krishna, by your arrangement, people can go into Maya, by your arrangement, people can come out of Maya. What that means is that both the pushing and pulling principle powers, they both work under Krishna’s supervision. So, now, we go back over here.
If it is your desire that they be delivered. So, he’s saying that they will understand your message, your katha that I’m telling. What does it mean practically? It means that it’s not just a matter of intellectual understanding.
Yes, that is important. But then intellectual understanding needs to lead to a spiritual transforming. So, now, what is it that makes some people turn toward Krishna and some people not turn toward Krishna? When we do some programme, then we invite conducting courses and we invite some people for festivals.
It may be our family, our relatives, our acquaintances. Some of them take up, some of them don’t take up. Some of them take up, but they take it up very, very slowly.
Others take it up and take it much faster. So, it’s very difficult to figure out all the factors that actually attract a person to Krishna. In general, within the process of bhakti specifically, but in spirituality in general, there is a rational aspect to it and there is a mystical aspect to it.
The mystical is what earlier I talked about magic and miracles. So, miracles can happen by suspending the laws of nature or even by working through the laws of nature. So, we can try to rationally understand and explain.
Okay, so why do people come to the temples? You know, especially if we look in America, in the West in general, a lot of Indians, when they get settled in America, they get married, they have children, then they often look for some temples. So, we can look at rational explanation if they want to pass on the values of their tradition, their culture to their children and they feel a temple will be a good place for that. That’s a rational explanation.
That’s fair enough. But then, why don’t all parents who have similar concerns come there? Some parents come, some parents don’t. So, the rational explanation is there.
Like somebody might be very, very successful in their life and they feel no need for God and suddenly there is a severe career setback. Maybe they lose their job, maybe they get some severe health diagnosis or they’re going up and suddenly they crash. Then maybe that makes them humble, that inspires them to come towards Krishna.
We could say that, but then, does it happen to everyone? Does everybody who goes through difficulty come to Krishna? No. So, yesterday I discussed, we have mentioned about the various factors that bring people to Krishna. There are the curious people, there are the distressed people, there are the money seekers, there are the knowledgeable people.
But we can look at all these people, even among those who are distressed, everybody who is distressed doesn’t become spiritual. So, so there is, in the West, yoga is becoming very popular. India also has become popular now, quite popular as compared to a few years ago.
But I was in LA and I was, there’s a district where there is a, like a lot of yoga studios there. And I had a programming on yoga studio and right to right there was another yoga studio and they had written, no ohming, no humming, pure yoga, or just yoga. So, below that he said, so the idea was that I asked the organiser of the programme, he said, this is, this is the kind of yoga studios that appeal to atheists.
They said, this is, there’s no ohm, no ohming. I didn’t know ohming was a word. It was a word actually.
Uttering ohm is ohming. Okay. But no ohming.
So, these people, they are coming for yoga, but they have no interest in spirituality. Not zero, no interest in spirituality. So, that is how they’re advertising it.
We assure you there’ll be no ohming and no humming over here. Humming is basically like humming or uttering of mantras. So, this is just yoga.
So, you could have people attracted towards yoga and that’s how they become attracted to spirituality. But people may become attracted to yoga without getting attracted to spirituality. They may not want any spirituality at all.
In fact, a popular book in Europe, not very popular, but it’s called Religion for Atheists. So, there are a lot of atheistic thinkers who are saying that, that really, from around, after 9-11, between around 2002-2003 till about 2013, 10 years, there’s a very aggressive surge of atheism. There are many atheists who wrote books which are bestsellers and they predicted the death of God and God will be eradicated.
There is one atheist who said that among all the ideas that the human mind has invented, there is no idea that has caused as much destruction in human society as the idea of God. So, God is the most toxic invention of the human mind. So, that is a very toxic idea.
They felt they were very aggressively going that people will become atheistic. It just didn’t happen. And now what their reasoning is, is that actually religion provides some psychological and social support.
And when you come together and do an activity together, you sing together, you do some communal activity and you have, you get a sense of social support and you get a sense of psychological support. So, they are saying how we can have that same support provided for atheists. So, there is this whole phenomenon called AC.
In India, what does AC mean? Air conditioning. Air conditioning. In Europe, AC means Atheist Church.
So, they call themselves as churches but they are for atheists. So, the point I am making over here is simply this that we cannot rationally explain exhaustively why someone will come towards Christianity and why someone will not come towards Christianity. I could go into this.
Now, this is a much more detailed, but I will stop over here. The point I am making is that it’s not that rationality is unimportant. It is important.
It is important for us to at least analyse and understand. But that alone will never give us a conclusive answer. Because of this, because of A, B happened.
Because of this reason, this person came to bhakti. Okay, fair enough. But if that were the only factor that all the people who are in that situation would come to bhakti.
But they don’t come to bhakti. So, that mysterious element which is beyond human control, which is even beyond human cognition. Cognition is understanding, comprehension.
That is what sometimes is referred to in our tradition as the will of the Lord. If it is your desire that they get elevated, that they get liberated. So, this unknown factor that is beyond human control and sometimes even beyond human comprehension.
So, that is sometimes called as the divine will. The will of providence, the divine will, destiny, all these different names come in. So, when Prabhupada is using the word, if it is your desire, Krishna, that they get elevated.
Now, that does not necessarily mean that for some people Krishna doesn’t want them to be elevated. Now, Krishna is suhrudam sarvabhutan. Krishna wants everyone to be elevated.
But the point over here is that there are factors which are in human control and there are factors which are not in human control. So, for example, we arrange a course in the temple. So, now we want to make sure that all the supporting factors are nice.
We have good prasadam after the programme. We have warm, welcoming devotees who talk with people, who help them to develop relationships. We arrange good speakers, not just technical speakers, not just sound system.
We also speak nicely. We advertise properly. We try to create all the support that is beyond within the human capacity to do.
But even after doing that, sometimes things just don’t work. So, it’s like sometimes you will see if there is a teacher, there is a teacher and there is a seeker. Now, sometimes it is like the teacher’s effort is 99 percent and the seeker’s effort is 1 percent.
Isn’t it? That teacher makes all the arrangements, the seeker has to do very little. This is not to minimise the 1 percent. I mean, 1 percent is also important.
But there are also people who will see that, you know, in many cases, the seeker’s effort is 99 percent and the teacher’s effort may only be 1 percent. So, when I was in Canada, I met one devotee who was from Iran. Now, this person, he got introduced to Krishna consciousness online because Iran is quite a hardline Islamic country.
There are Indian immigrants there also, not many, they are there. But in some countries, in some of the Middle East countries, at least the private practise of religion is allowed apart from Islam. But in some countries, even private practises, if not forbid, it is quite risky.
A country like Bahrain and a few other countries, UAE is becoming a little more liberal because they want to do more prosperous. There, the private practise is allowed. But Iran is a place where no private practise is allowed.
So, this devotee came across the Krishna consciousness through online talks. You know, just some devotee’s talk popped up on YouTube and he was watching something and then he came across, started reading Prabhupada’s books and other books. And there, there is absolutely no support.
So, he was in a job in Iran and he started corresponding with devotees. And then finally, he changed his job. He gave up his job.
He did a one-year degree in a different field. And then to do a further degree, he got a job. Sorry, he, to do further degree, he got a suitable application to come to America.
And he did all that so that he could have association of devotees. And now, so many people go, emigrate to a different country for better material prospects. He emigrated to America for better spiritual prospects.
So now, in this case, yeah, he had some spiritual guide. But here you will see that the effort done by the devotee is so much more, isn’t it? This is not again to devalue the effort done by the teacher. Objectively, you can say sometimes some people just put in so much effort.
So, but even with that, he is telling me that it could, so many things could have gone wrong. Now, I might not have got my application for studies in America approved. Or I could have come to America to a place.
And America is also a huge country. It’s much bigger than India also, physically. So, you can go in America to a university where there are no devotees also.
Many, there are almost like not just universities, there are some entire states in America where there is practically no temple or no centre also. It was small, maybe one or two devotees are there, so a lot of things worked out. So, there are factors that are under human control, and there are factors that are beyond human control.
So, Sushil Prabhupada is saying that from my, in his perspective now, he doesn’t have any institutional support over here. He has a plan to create an institution. He has not yet created it.
But what is he saying over here? That I will speak the words, but whether the words will have an impact or not. That is determined by you, O Lord. Now, it’s a very interesting point.
In this whole song, Sushil Prabhupada’s focus is not so much on the audience directly. It’s, Prabhupada is not thinking about, oh, these Americans are this kind of education, this kind of culture. You see, Prabhupada could have been going to Russia for that matter.
Prabhupada could have gone to Australia. Prabhupada could have gone to Africa. And almost the entire song would have been the same.
There’s nothing America specific in the song. So, it’s for him, once when Prabhupada was in America, so he had gone to Africa, he said, what is your message for Africa? One reporter asked him. At that time, our movement was quite big.
And our leaders would travel to different places. We were quite new. So, what is your message for Africa? Prabhupada said, my message for Africa is the same as my message for the rest of the world.
It is that we love God. We have forgotten God. And if we forget God, we can never have peace.
We can never have happiness. So, in one sense, of course, the audience is important. And that is there.
But in this particular focus, what we will see is Prabhupada is not talking to the audience here. Prabhupada is talking to us now over here. There is a, if we consider, we humans connect with the divine in broadly two ways.
These two words are sometimes used interchangeably, prayer and meditation. So, now, while these words are used in many different ways, broadly speaking, prayer is when we speak to God. Meditation is when we listen to God.
So, prayer is where we are pouring out our heart’s concerns, our fears, our aspirations. We are pouring that out and calling out. Prayer is where it is we who speak and meditation is where we calm our mind, we open our heart, we become more receptive to hear.
So, now chanting is a, is it a prayer or is it meditation from this perspective? How many of you say prayer? How many of you say meditation? What is the safest answer? Yeah, the answer is both. It depends on how we are doing it. That, you know, sometimes when we are chanting, it is like, sometimes we chanting, we just, we try to calm our mind and just hear the holy name.
Now, if the focus is on hearing, then it’s meditation. If the focus is on speaking, it is we who are chanting. It is we who are calling out to God.
Then the focus is more on praying. Now, both are there. It’s not that it is one.
So, but both are there. So, sometimes some devotees, if you chant, it’s almost like that chanting does, seems anything except peaceful. So, I, as I mentioned, I travelled to the West quite a bit.
So, was, we had once, sometimes once a year, we take Western people to a tour of India, Western, mostly the yoga students. So, once they had come to the Iko Vardhani Kovali near Pune, near Mumbai, and they had come to the morning meditation session. So, we taught them mantra meditation.
And after they came to the morning japa time in temple, 5, 5.30. And one of them said that, was this meditation or was this war? So, sometimes what happens is, if our mind is not focussing on Krishna, we can, mind is agitated and we become agitated why the mind is agitated. So, then sometimes it’s almost like, we, are we trying to catch our mind and offer it to Krishna or are we trying to catch Krishna and force him into our mind? Krishna, where are you? Come here. So, the mood has to be that always, it is that Krishna is the controller, the holy name.
We can’t control and command the holy name. But why am I talking about this over here? So, what is being offered right now, actually, Prabhupada? What is it? Is it a prayer or a meditation? It is primarily a prayer. So, Prabhupada is praying Krishna.
So, for example, if we have a high stakes meeting with someone and there is some conflict and for resolution of the conflict, we are praying to Krishna, maybe we are chanting before that. Now, we may think about the other person, but if our focus is on Krishna, we will pray to Krishna. You please make my words come.
Please make my perspective understandable to the other person. So, yes, other people are there and people’s free will is important. But here, when Prabhupada is speaking, his focus is on Krishna.
He is directly praying to Krishna. Krishna, you make my words understandable to them. So, for us, that, yesterday I talked about the push and pull, the now or the upward and the downward pull, we cannot control all those factors.
We can try to help create ambience where the upward pull is strong. And we can try to create ambience where the downward pull is less. I was in Australia, in Canberra, and there was a, this many years before, I had gone there for Gaur Purnima.
And then in the morning programme, I was sitting and chanting at a very small temple. So, right next to the temple was the kitchen. And they were, they were planning to have, because it was a weekend, so the Gaur Purnima was still not in the evening, it was in the morning.
So, while everybody was doing japa, there were like delicious aromas coming from the kitchen. So, imagine if, say, we have to chant and you tell people, okay, this is a 10-course feast. This 10-course feast plate will be right in front of you.
Look at it, do not look anywhere else and chant attentively. Now, it is prasad, but what will happen? There, the pull towards the world will become much more. So, generally speaking, we can try to create an ambience where the upward pull is maximum, the downward pull is minimum.
But beyond that, whether somebody will be pulled upwards or somebody will be pulled downwards, that we cannot control, isn’t it? So, that is something which has to be carefully decided. So, we have to, so there is something which is in human control, but there is something which is beyond human control. So, Shri Prabhupada is emphasising this point.
So, the way I am putting it is the rational and the mystical, if you go back over here, that there is rationalist, broadly, it is within human understanding and then after human comprehension is there, then human control is there. Once we understand what all needs to be done or sometimes we may be able to do it all, sometimes we will not be able to do it all. Suppose we are doing a first time programme in some area, then it is not our venue, somebody else has provided us the venue, we will not be able to control many factors over there.
So, we will not be able to arrange everything right. But we can try to arrange as many of these factors as possible. So, for example, our children, we all want our children to grow up and become devotees.
Now, we can try to arrange as many factors as possible. Now, we can try to have a nice temple in our home, we ourselves practise bhakti nicely, we engage our children in devotionally joyful activities, maybe have some skits, some dramas, we teach them some instruments and they learn something. So, we can try to arrange all these things.
But beyond that, every child is a soul and every child has free will. So, we cannot control that. And if some child does not become a devotee, you cannot blame the parents for that.
The parents have to try. Prabhupada s own children did not become devotees. They were pious people, there was pious and they also were pious.
But they were not sadhakas, they never became devotees in the sense of sadhana. So, we cannot control these factors. So, if you go back to the, there is the rational aspect and there is the mystical aspect.
So, in the journey of attraction to Krishna or dedication to Krishna, the rational aspect is yes or no, the mystical aspect is yes or no. So, now if you consider four quadrants, which is the best situation to be in? Fourth, yes, this is the best. Now, if we cannot be in fourth, where can we be? Where can we try to be? One, yes, we could say this is the second best.
This is good. Now, sometimes some devotees have a lot of difficulties. Everybody has difficulties in their spiritual life.
But we sometimes, some devotee may come to a place where there is, where the leaders can sometimes be very demanding or very dictatorial, or sometimes the leader itself has some spiritual problems afterwards. Now, there are some people who are critical and they use this, they say the whole guru system is flawed, or this is like this, this is like that. And yes, there are those kind of criticisms can be made.
But the point is that sometimes it may happen that for a person, there may be lots and lots of difficulties in the support that is provided and still they come to Krishna. Not only come to Krishna, still they stay with Krishna, still they keep drawing towards Krishna. So, I met one Prabhupada Desai, not Prabhupada Desai, one devotee.
He was introduced in 78. So, actually he was introduced in 76 end, 1976 end. So, he was actually recommended to be initiated by Prabhupada.
But somehow, the temple president had supposed to make one call. And Prabhupada said, I had made the call, but he forgot to make the call. Rather in the call, his name was not included.
And that’s why he could not be initiated by Prabhupada. And then after Prabhupada departed, he took initiation from another devotee. And various things went wrong.
And he has had six spiritual masters to go. Each spiritual master had a problem. So, now this can be devastating for somebody’s faith.
So, when I heard his story, I said, no, it is, you know, you are not a devotee because of his consciousness. No, as a spiritual priest. I mean, we want to provide support systems.
But you know, this is not the international society of Krishna Consciousness. It is an international society for Krishna Consciousness. It is not that Krishna Consciousness is automatically present over here.
It is that people who have come here to cultivate Krishna Consciousness, they can cultivate Krishna Consciousness over here. So, what is the difference between say, you say in ISKCON, it is of Krishna Consciousness and for Krishna Consciousness. So, of Krishna Consciousness means it’s like an oasis in a desert.
You just reach there and there is abundant water over there. And that metaphor can sometimes be used. But this is like a gold mine in a desert or gold mine in a wilderness.
Now, what is the difference between an oasis and a gold mine? Exactly, yes. Oasis means water means that you just pick up and drink the water. But gold mine means even if we get there, we have to take it.
So, it is, yes, initially, if somebody comes from a materialistic world, there is so much Krishna Consciousness here. Now, there are deities, there is Kirtan, there is Katha, it is there. But if you have to sustain the practise, there are lots of challenges that will be there.
And we have to overcome those challenges. So, it is for Krishna Consciousness means if somebody wants to be Krishna Conscious, there are lots of facilities available, lots of resources available. But if somebody doesn’t want to be Krishna Conscious, of course, you can do that also.
Somebody may come here and they may be here only for power and prestige. And they may continue like that for quite some time before it becomes obvious what they are doing. That’s why of Krishna Consciousness means, now, there are some places we can get so rich with Krishna Conscious, you come there and you feel so wonderful.
So, this is where you could say 99% is the rational aspect and 1% is the mystical aspect, what I said earlier. That means that there is so much facility available that a person will naturally take a But for Krishna Consciousness means here could be the 1% is the rational and that if you come to an area that is a gold mine, externally speaking, the gold mine is an ordinary area only. It is not that gold is popping out from here to show us all this gold over here.
No, externally it might just look like anything else. So, sometimes in the early days when we had, we just took storefronts and converted them into temples or started utilising them as temples. There are places in the West, Christianity is going down substantially.
It is not going, there are people who have become Christians also and staying Christians also, but otherwise it is relatively going down. There are many places where devotees have taken churches and we are using them as temples. So, now when that happens at that particular time in Canada, near New York, we have a bargain counter where there is a church and building a temple takes a lot of effort.
So, devotees rent the church for a weekend. So, only for Sunday evening, we have the church and where we have programmes. So, their service happens on Saturday, ours happens on Sunday.
So, when I was there, the local preacher who was there, he had also come to see. Our devotees had just started the programme and I was the first visiting preacher to come over there. So, a lot of people had come.
So, after that, I was talking with the priest and he said, so among in Catholics, they call them as priests. In Protestants, they call them as preachers or pastors. Pastor was there.
He was joking, he said, you can swap people. I think I should change my religion. So, now, in one sense, there the supportive infrastructure, it like, there may not something, nothing may seem to be like Vedic spirituality over there.
Churches have a particular kind of architecture. Temples have a different kind of architecture. So, the external support might be very little, but then people come there and they still go over there also.
So, the point again, I just conclude this point, I am repeating in multiple perspectives that, that when we are trying to share Krishna Bhakti, whatever factors are in our control, we try to arrange them as much as we can. But we also need to remember that there are many factors which are beyond our control. And that is why nobody can say, I know in absolute sense, I made this person into a devotee or I have made so many devotees.
In a practical sense, we may say that, okay, I conducted the programme, that is how this person became a devotee. But actually, there are so many factors that need to work out. So, Prabhupada is praying that Krishna, whatever is beyond your control, you take care of that.
And that is how this will work out. Can we sing this? Who would like to sing this? First, we will sing the seventh and then we will sing the eighth also. I will just quickly explain the meaning.
We will sing it once more. So, Krishna is telling Prabhupada, this is not just some intellectual sound that I want to speak. He is saying this is non-different from you.
And what is the effect of this Navavatar? A person becomes sober. If he just hears it again and again, that person will become sober. So, continuing that theme of the upward pull and the downward pull.
So, it is Krishna who manifests as the Bhagavata Katha and that is Dheerahaya. Dheera means sober. Now, the Gita has been translated by many other commentators, many other scholars also.
So, Prabhupada is, as far as I have seen, he is among the first people who have used the word sober as a translation. So, Dheera is another reference, steady, steadfast, calm. Normally, where do you use the word sober? In what context? Yeah, alcoholic.
Somebody is drunk and somebody sober. So, now, Prabhupada uses the word sober in the sense that maya can make us intoxicated. And when we are intoxicated, we just lose sense of what is going on.
What is right? What is wrong? What is less desirable? What is more desirable? We just lose our sense. So, what Prabhupada is saying is, if somebody just keeps hearing Bhagavata Katha, two things will happen. Hearing Bhagavata, that will lead to this downward pull that is there, the pull of maya, that will become lesser, that will decrease.
Now, of course, the more important aspect is that by hearing about Krishna, there is the upward pull, that might be small, the upward pull will increase. The pull towards maya will decrease and the pull of Krishna will increase. So, if we just keep hearing about Krishna, these two things start happening with me.
Now, this can happen by, sometimes intellectually, philosophically, we hear stories. We may hear stories, say, of somebody like Ajamil, who just got captivated by maya and just ruined a perfectly respectable life. And that can act like a cautionary tale, or there are stories of, say, Bharat Maharaj, or whether stories can act at a conscious level as warnings.
But it can also act at a subconscious level, just okay, this is so sweet, this is so right, this is so meaningful, so relishable. Why do I need to look at any other things in the world? So, it can work both ways, but it will work with time. So, now, Bhagavata has a confidence that the Bhagavata Katha has that potency.
In fact, one reason, or rather the only thing, the only resource at a material level or a practical level, you can say, which Prabhupada took with him when he went to America is that he took his Bhagavatams. Bhagavatam volumes, which he took with him, where are they? Yeah, some of them, a couple of hundred copies he took. Are there many devotees outside? Some of you can come ahead.
Some of you can come ahead here. Here also, there is a little space. I do not think here there is much space, but yeah, okay.
There is a pull of Krishna and there is a pull of Maya. So, just by hearing about Krishna, the upward pull becomes stronger, downward pull becomes weaker. And let us try to analyse this a little bit more now.
What does, so I talked about how does this happen, this change of pull, the effect of hearing Bhagavata Katha, it can work at a conscious level and it can work at an unconscious or subconscious level also. Let us try to understand these two factors. At a conscious level means that we ourself, as I said, this is very dangerous, I should not be getting involved in these things.
Oh, this is so satisfying. I feel so good when I come and hear about Krishna. I want to do this.
So, at a conscious level, it is more like the emotion that we experience. At a conscious level, it is our reasoning that is developed, both emotion and reason, both work. Reason means our logic, our analytical, both happen.
At a subconscious level, what happens is the impressions that are formed inside us, they change. So, somebody as soon as they wake up, as soon as they wake up, first thing might have been that, okay, I want to look at my phone and look at my Facebook, look at my TikTok, look at my social media, look at this, look at that. Somebody else as soon as they wake up, okay, you know, let me start some kirtan, let me have some prayer going on, let me read some shloka, let me recite something.
So, what has happened gradually, the impression itself has changed. So, when you talk about something subconscious, that means we do not have to consciously think about what we are doing. It is just our actions go in a particular direction.
I think in my first or second class, I have mentioned what is attachment. How do we know what is our attachment? Did I mention this point about attachment? Yeah, where we get more pleasure? Yes, that is one way of putting it. What do we think of when we have nothing to think of? What do we think of when we have nothing to think of that indicates our attachment? Like if you are driving on a crowded road, you have to pay attention to the road.
But if it is a long intercity expressway or something is there, there is not much traffic coming here and there. So, we do not have to pay much attention over there. Then where do our thoughts go? Do they go to politics? Do they go to movies? Do they go to sports? Or do they go to that? So, in one sense, one way to know our attachment is where do our thoughts go when they have nowhere to go? So, that is at a subconscious level it starts happening.
So, now we use this word inclination. Now, inclination has a physical aspect to it and there is a psychological or mental aspect to it. So, physical aspect could mean that the floor is inclined in a particular way.
So, if the floor is inclined in a particular way, water falls over here, it will move in a particular direction. So, if say we have electronic equipment over here, we want to keep it in this side of the room, but the floor is inclined, so anytime water comes, water will come over here. So, then we may decide, I do not want to keep electronic equipment, I will keep on the other side.
So, it can refer to like a physical structure, the incline of a road, incline of a area. It is a physical feature. So, that same thing, we can apply at a psychological level also.
So, we can say this is the inclination of the floor in a particular place, but inclination of the mind. That means whenever consciousness comes, it goes in a particular direction. So, if there is nothing to think about, we will start thinking about that.
That is the inclination of a person. So, bhakti is at one level about consciously directing our thoughts towards Krishna, that is very important. But when we keep directing our thoughts towards Krishna consciously, gradually at a subconscious level also the things change.
So, if we consider our mind is also a real thing. So, we consider, say if this is Krishna and this is Maya. So, when we start our spiritual journey, our mental floor is largely inclined like this.
Now, for some people, it may be like this also, inclination may be much, much more also. But broadly, our mental floor is inclined towards Maya. So, now at this point, if we have to say this side is Krishna, this side is Maya, then if our thoughts, mental floor means our thoughts slide naturally towards Maya.
So, what happens is here, this side will be almost effortless. The thoughts will go in this direction without any effort. But in this direction, if you want the thoughts to go, it will be effortful.
So, this is how the mental inclination is. But as we become purified, as purification starts happening, gradually the inclination of the mental floor itself changes. So, that over a period of time, our mental floor starts becoming inclined like this.
And then gradually what will happen is this side, our thoughts going towards Krishna will become effortless. Naturally, our thoughts will go toward Krishna. And to think about Maya, it will become effortful.
When Krishna left Vrindavan and went to Mathura, the gopis were heartbroken. At one time, the gopis decided, you know, they did not think of themselves as pure devotees. They thought that actually, you know, we are very attached to Krishna.
And that’s why we are suffering so much. Krishna has abandoned us. So, we have heard from the sages that to give up attachments, you should do meditation.
So, they started doing meditation to forget Krishna. When they were sitting down in yogic posture to meditate, and suddenly one of the gopis would, you know, some part of Krishna would come and she would start thinking, you know, Krishna did like this. And all the gopis will start talking.
Within a few moments, they get immersed talking about Krishna. And suddenly one of the gopis would say, hey, we are supposed to forget Krishna. Okay, let’s sit down in meditation.
So, for them, effortlessly, their thoughts will go towards Krishna. So, in terms of the stages of bhakti, it is that most of you know the stages of bhakti. If you consider nine stages of bhakti, the way bhakti grows is, it is till we come to the stage of nishtha.
It is a steep climb from shraddha to dishtha. It is, it’s constant pushing is required. It’s tough.
Once you come to nishtha, adav shraddha, sadhu sangha, bhajana kriya, nartha nivratti. Do all of you know these stages? Most, how many of you have not heard about the stages? Okay, some of you have not heard about it. So, I won’t go into detail.
Shraddha means, it’s like initial curiosity. Maybe this programme will let me find out what it is about. So, this is, initially we have some curiosity.
Then shraddha, what happens is, we come for a programme, we associate with devotees, that is sadhu sangha. That means association. Then there’s bhajana kriya.
Bhajana kriya is where we start practising bhakti. And then after that, nartha nivratti. So, now when this starts happening, essentially, especially nartha nivratti is a very long phase.
So, we start bhajana kriya, we start chanting, we start following the rules. Anartha nivratti means that’s where the lust starts decreasing, the anger starts decreasing, the greed starts decreasing. This takes time, but it happens.
So, this is where it’s tough. We have to keep pushing ourselves forward. It takes time, but it does happen with time.
Now, once we come to nishtha stage, after that, it is not me. That much effort is not there. That means, more or less, what has happened is, at this stage, you could say the mental floor is highly inclined towards maya.
Here, it has become slightly inclined towards Krishna. And here, it has become huge. Actually, now, let’s assume, we have to do it the other way.
Let’s assume that Krishna is on this side and maya is on this side. So, initially, our mental floor is very much inclined this way. Here, it has become slightly inclined towards, it is, you can say it’s almost flat, slightly inclined or slightly downwardly inclined, whichever way it is, little easier.
And here, it has become rapidly inclined towards Krishna. So, this is from the stage of ruchi, asakti, bhav and prema. But then, it will become effortless.
So, right now, most of us are in that steep forward phase. This is where a lot of effort will be required. It’s not going to happen overnight.
It’s going to require a significant amount of effort. But by this effort, gradually, right now, if our mind wanders here and there, we bring it back to Krishna. Mind wanders again, we bring it back to Krishna.
Wanders, we bring it back to Krishna. Yes, this is the effort. But by this effort, things will change gradually.
And as things change, it will become easier to focus on Krishna. And then, eventually, it will become that. So, when Prabhupada is saying, a person becomes sober when they hear about Krishna regularly.
What that means is that this downward pull decreases and the upward pull increases more and more. And as that happens, one starts becoming drawn more and more towards Krishna. So, any questions at this point? Okay, one question.
Let’s take one more verse and then we will have questions. Anyone has questions? You have questions? Okay. So, now, after this, Prabhupada will quote what he is quoting or he is speaking in Bengali.
Bengali is my mother tongue. So, naturally, Prabhupada, in his personal prayers, is speaking, spontaneously expressing his heart in Bengali. But whatever he is speaking in Bengali, it is based on Shastra.
So, Prabhupada is quoting Shastra also. Chaitanya Charitam is also having that style where the book is in Bengali, but there are lots of verses quoted from Sanskrit. So, Prabhupada is quoting the section from the Bhagavatam, which is reiterating this theme that how? How by hearing about Krishna, one becomes purified.
So, this is, in fact, this whole series is published as a book by Srila Prabhupada, Dharma, the Way of Transcendence. So, just hearing about Krishna itself is purifying. But along with that, Krishna purifies our heart.
Krishna himself cleanses our heart. That means this theme of the downward pull decreases, the upward pull increases. That same thing is elaborated.
So, abhadra is what pulls us downward. That is nashtaprayeshu, mostly it is destroyed. And bhagvati uttama shloke, bhaktir bhavati naishtaki.
Naishtaki is very strong. This is at the stage of nishta. So, initially, it is said, our bhakti may be like a banana tree.
Banana tree, any animal can come strong enough, just shake it up completely. But if you keep practising bhakti, it becomes like a banyan tree. Now, whoever tries to shake it, that itself gets shaken.
I think the tree doesn’t get shaken. So, it will come to that level. So, bhaktir bhavati naishtaki, that is nishta.
Then, how exactly does it happen internally? tadarajas tamo bhava kamalobha dayas chetetai ranavidham sitam sattvi prasilati rajas tamo bhava, what is there, that just gets eliminated. That is what primarily pulling us downwards. What Prabhupada earlier said in the verse, you know, rajas tamo gunera sabaiyachan.
So, the lower modes, they go down. And then, Prabhupada is not only about transcendental over here, he says, sitam sattvi. They become situated, steady khatva.
And that is where prasidati. So, bhakti, we can experience some joy even now. But what happens right now, because our anathas are still there, we cannot experience steady happiness in bhakti.
Now, we may come and we may do some seva and we feel very good. But then, we go and distribute books and we feel wonderful, oh, it is so nice, I talk with so many people. And then, we come back and find that somebody else has distributed more books than us.
And all the happiness goes away. We go and give a class and people are appreciative. We conduct a course and we said, okay, 40 people came for a course and all of them are very interested and we feel very happy.
And we come back and somebody else conducted a course, there are 65 people came for that. So, what happens is that for us, as long as that competitive mentality is there, that can spur us to do more service. But because of the influence of Rajas and Tamas, our bhakti is not constantly joyful for us.
Because there are so many other desires, the desire for serving Krishna is there, there are so many other desires also there. But sitam sattve sintati, we become steady in our bhakti. This is what I meant.
This is what is going to give me happiness. This is the most thing in my life. When with this joyful mind, with a joyful heart when we practise bhakti, then we actually start understanding Krishna.
Right now our situation is, yeah, Krishna is nice, but Maya is also not all that bad really. That Krishna is the only object of love. That it is in Krishna that all my heart’s desires will be fulfilled.
Supreme attractiveness of Krishna, we understand that. And then we become free from the Sangha attachment to the world. Ultimately, we say attachment.
What does it mean, our attachment to the world? It means that we are constantly thinking that maybe something other than Krishna can make me happy. Now, yes, we know there are many things to survive in this world. That’s important.
But like wealth is necessary for survival. And we cannot live without wealth. That’s why it’s called artha.
But artha is not paramartha. It is not what wealth is necessary. We can live, we need to live with wealth.
But we don’t live for wealth. We live with money, money is required for living. But when we live for money, that means money is not just a source of sustenance or safety.
Money becomes the source of joy for us. That is the purpose of life. That’s the problem.
So, we start understanding that there is nothing other than Krishna. That’s where all doubts go away, all other desires, they cease and all the attachments disappear. And whatever self-motivated, that’s whatever materially motivated actions are there for us, they just stop because we understand that Krishna is my Lord and I don’t need any other Lord, anything other than Krishna.
What is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s prayer? At that stage, it is for us, it’s an aspiration. But at this level, it becomes the reality for us. Krishna, I don’t need anything apart from you.
This is where, the same theme, Raja and Tama, one becomes free from their torment. So, can we just sing this and then I’ll conclude with this. So, earlier we talked about the modes.
The modes act at the level of the Gyanendriyas, Karmendriyas in the mind. So, essentially, what happens is, there is Artha. There are many things of value in our life.
But the effect of Raja or Tamoguna is that, what is Artha becomes the Parmartha for us. So, everybody needs money. Everybody needs a certain amount of control or power.
You know, everybody needs their space to do certain things. And Krishna went as Shanti Doodh. He said minimal demands.
But what was the minimal demand? Five villages. See, the Pandavas were always united. But still, Krishna did not say one village.
Five villages. Pandavas, Kshatriyas, everybody needs a little bit of their own space. So, whatever is a certain level of control, a certain kind of schedule, so control, wealth, all these things are important in our life.
But when they become the most important thing, when an Artha becomes the Parmartha, that leads to Anartha. So, for example, money is Artha. But when money becomes the Parmartha, the supreme purpose of life, then that leads to the Anartha of greed.
You know, Lobha comes when everybody needs money in life. But when that becomes the supreme purpose of life, that leads to Anartha. Now, we all need some control in life.
When people don’t listen to us, nobody likes it. That’s natural. But when somebody is not listening to us, we want control.
But we want control, but we also want the relationship. When in that moment, control becomes the most important thing. I want to put you in your place.
And then at that time, we speak such words that can hurt the other person permanently, that can ruin the relationship permanently. So, everybody needs a sense of control to some degree. But when that becomes the supreme value, most important thing, then that is where it leads to anger.
So, the Anarthas are often, they are arising from not something completely valueless, but rather when completely worthless. The word valueless in English has the opposite meaning, so much value that we can’t measure the value, invaluable like that. But when you say worthless, so often the things are important.
But when they are made into all important, so then it becomes an Anartha. So, so when these less important things are very, are becoming too important for us, that’s the time when we get pulled again and again, here, there and everywhere. And that’s how we start falling.
So, for us, when we hear about Krishna, we start understanding that it is Krishna alone who is the Paramartha. Now, that does not mean that we give up Artha. It means that when Krishna becomes the Paramartha for us, then naturally anything else, then Anartha that is there in our heart, that starts decreasing, that disappears.
That’s why the focus, it’s interesting, like sometimes people have, we talked earlier about addiction, one of the sessions, and people try to give up addiction. You know, it’s not so much, yes, we want to give up addiction if somebody has some addiction, but the focus cannot be on giving up addiction. The focus is not on what you give up.
The focus is on what we take up. It is when we take up something more important in life, that we can give up something less important. So, and this principle applies everywhere.
So, in Bhakti, you know, it’s not that as devotees, we are constantly struggling. There is no vigilance, like there’s no moral police to watch. Okay, is this devotee eating meat? Is the devotee doing this? Is the devotee doing that? The point is, we connect with Krishna and other things fall by the side.
So, of course, sometimes we need to protect ourselves from those temptations. But the focus is on connecting with Krishna. This is not the international society for no meat-eating.
It is not the international society for no intoxication. There are societies like that also. But there are vegan societies, vegetarian societies.
Those things are important. But what is, it is Krishna which is most important. That’s why for us, when we are trying to practise Bhakti or grow spiritually, we need to keep our focus on Krishna, not focus so much on Maya, whether I’m able to give this up or not, whether I’m able to give that up or not.
Those things are important. They’re not the most important thing. Why? This is what I’ll conclude with.
At this particular journey, if we talk about renunciation of any kind, it could be renunciation in terms of less attachment to wealth, less attachment to this or that. Now, is renunciation material or is it spiritual? What do you think? See, renunciation itself is one of the Aishwaryas of Krishna, isn’t it? Dharma, what is that? Aishwarya Samagrasa. So, we have wealth, strength, beauty, knowledge, fame and renunciation.
So, now if you consider from this perspective, a wealth, if one person has a lot of wealth and other person has little less wealth or very less wealth. Now, if a person has a lot of wealth, does that automatically mean that person is spiritually advanced? No, that wealth has come because of past karma, isn’t it? That wealth has come because of past karma. Similarly, some people may be very, very good looking.
Does that make them spiritual? Not necessarily. So, now among these six Aishwaryas, generally wealth or strength or beauty, they’re very attractive in this world, but nobody would mistake them to be spiritual so much. But Gyan and Vairagya, these two can be very easily mistaken to be spiritual.
If somebody has a lot of knowledge, especially they can quote a lot of scripture, they can remember a lot of scripture, then, oh, this person must be very spiritually advanced. Possible, but not necessary. There are academic scholars who may study traditional scripture very exhaustively and they may not even believe in God.
So, somebody might just have intellectual nature that using it for some field. So, similarly, Vairagya or renunciation is also a gift that a person may get by past karma. So, what do I mean by this? Now, most people think of renunciation means, oh, you have to take sannyas and you go to the forest.
No, renunciation can also mean, if you’re not very emotionally turbulent, see somebody renounced, they can stay calm. The most people may say that everybody likes to be good looking, everybody likes to be wealthy. Do people like to be renounced? Well, people like to act, people may not like renunciation, people like the result of renunciation, that is calmness.
Everybody asks, how do you stay so calm? How do you stay so composed? So, now if we consider, cricket is very popular in India. India previously had two captains. Kohli was like very expressive, not expressive, aggressive.
Before that Dhoni was very calm. He was called Captain Cool at one time. Now, does this calmness mean that he’s renounced? No, he’s not renounced.
He’s into motorcycles and he has like 70-80 motorcycles, he has something like that. You may have, I’m not criticising you for that. I’m just making the point over here that some people are just naturally calmer than others.
So, that calmness is not necessarily a sign of spiritual growth. Like some people are better able to conceal their emotions than others. They may be disturbed, they may be attached, they may be agitated, but they can put on a poker face and show no emotion at all.
So, renunciation can be material in the sense that if we say it is a result of past karma. When it is resulting from past karma, we can actually, and it can be a valuable asset. If somebody has to make high stakes decisions, somebody is working in a company and you have to decide, take investment out from here, put the investment over here or do this, do that.
If somebody can stay calm, that’s a big big asset. So, it is an opulence. Now, renunciation can result from past karma.
Result can also result from bhakti. Vasudeve bhagwati bhakti yoga prayojita janayaty ashu vairagyam jnanam chayad And vairagyam comes also as a practise of bhakti. So, if somebody is in a fast nirjal or ekadayam, does that mean that they are very advanced devotees? Possible, but not necessarily.
When I was in the, I was staying in Pune, sometimes, you know, we had, in the ashram, we had two groups. I was in Pune, then in Mumbai, for the first time in Mumbai we had, it’s a joke, you know, there is a nirjal club and there is a nirlajya club. Now, those who fast without water and those who have nirlajya are shameless.
No, it is not that somebody is shameless when they are not eating. It was just a joke. But the idea is that, you know, some people are just naturally, they are physiologically, they can fast very easily.
If you go to Ayurveda, people with the Kapha prakriti can fast much more easily. People, those who don’t have Kapha prakriti, they find it very difficult to fast. So, nowadays there is increasing prevalence of the idea that obesity may also be genetic to some extent.
And of course, it’s a human, our dietary choices make a difference. But for some people, let’s say, some people, you will see, they treat their tongue like a conveyor belt. They think that everything goes off their tongue and still they remain slim and they don’t get digestive problems.
There is a little bit eating irregularity and their digestion gets spoiled, their body gets bloated. So, there is, of course, the current life’s action. There are past life actions also there.
So, basically, when we are trying to practise bhakti, we want to follow certain standards in terms of renunciation. We want to give this up, give that up, give that up. But for some people, they will fast very easily.
Is it because of that serious business, bhakti, that they have developed that vairagya? Or is it because the past karma they have got that vairagya? It’s very difficult to know. We should not be judging others. You know, somebody is very renounced, it’s your purva karma only, not a serious devotee.
We shouldn’t be thinking like that. And we shouldn’t be boasting. If we are able to be so renounced.
The point is, broadly speaking, that renunciation, to what extent it will come because of past karma, and to what extent it is going to come because of our present practise of bhakti, we don’t know. That’s why we focus on the connection with Krishna. Some devotees, when they have to chant, they may say, okay, I’ll sit on the floor, cross-legged and chant.
Some devotees, they sit down, they just feel sleepy. You stand and chant. Some people, they sit and chant, and they feel very uncomfortable.
You know, maybe I need a fan. Okay, the yogis in the past did not have fans when they were chanting. Somebody will say, you know, okay, that’s okay.
But if our body, if we’re chanting and we’re sweating, we’re thinking, oh, I’m sweating so much, sweating so much, sweating so much, then the purpose of chanting is not to tolerate sweat. The purpose of chanting is to remember Krishna. Okay, if you need a fan, have a fan and focus on chanting.
So, don’t make renunciation of the material as the sole criteria of our spiritual growth. Now, if renunciation is there, it’s good. But that’s not what is the primary criteria.
And this is not to devalue renunciation also, but it is also not to overvalue renunciation. So, to conclude, you know, we talk about artha and anartha. So, why did I take this? See, even renunciation is also an artha.
And if we make renunciation the supreme artha, that can also lead to anartha. If renunciation becomes the paramartha, that means the paramartha is always Krishna. So, if renunciation becomes our paramartha, that is the most important thing.
It is an artha, but it should not become the paramartha. If this happens, then this will also lead to anartha. Generally, the anartha that comes is ahankar, pride, ego.
If somebody is very renounced, say they are fasting nirja, and while they are fasting, they are constantly looking at who is going to the kitchen and who is eating what. So attacked, so hopeless, so unserious, so useless. So, their body is fasting, but their ego is feasting.
So, that is not very valuable. So, even renunciation, just as well should not become the paramartha, just as good looks or power should not become the paramartha, similarly, renunciation should also be our paramartha for us. So, we don’t, with respect to renunciation in bhakti, the way Prabhupada is talking about it is that he is saying that just by hearing about Krishna, this will come.
So, we don’t want to devalue renunciation, or it is not important at all. It’s all because of past karma. That’s not true.
But we also don’t want to overvalue renunciation. This is the most important thing. If I can’t renounce, then I am worthless.
We all may have some anarthas. Some devotees may have been very short-tempered in the past. And now, their anger has gone down, but still, their decreased anger still may be more than other people’s anger.
You see, how can somebody, the devotee is practising for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, 30, how can devotee get angry like this? Well, yes, they get angry. That’s not a desirable thing. But we can say that anger is for Krishna’s service.
They’re trying to serve Krishna. And is it spiritual anger? Well, a devotee who is getting angry should not claim my anger is spiritual. Anger is not a very desirable thing.
Hanuman burnt Lanka, but after burning Lanka, the first thought that when he, that excitement, that thrill, in today’s language, we use the word adrenaline, when it goes down, I have burned a whole of Lanka. Did Sita get burnt in this? If Sita has got burnt, then in my anger, if he did the whole purpose of coming here, what a fool I have been. That time, Akash will give, Sita is safe.
So, of course, Hanuman was not burning the forest, burning the Ashok Vatika, burning mostly the palaces. But still that fear was there. So, when we get angry, we should never justify our anger, my anger is spiritual.
But if somebody else is getting angry, should we think their anger is material? Again, we should focus on what is uncool, what is pratikun. If we can see that this devotee is actually so concerned about serving Krishna, and for the service of Krishna, this is important, this is not working out, then this devotee got angry. But suppose some devotee in anger speaks very hurtful words, becomes very offensive or abusive, then we decide that I don’t know why this devotee is getting so angry.
I don’t know whether it is coming from a desire to serve Krishna or a desire to control, but maybe I cannot work so closely with this devotee. So, focus not so much on judging the other devotee, focus on whether this is favourable for my bhakti or unfavourable to my bhakti. So, in between is we value as a resource for serving Krishna, as a resource for Krishna seva.
So, when we have this understanding, then whatever is nishtar, nishtar is proposal that we get relief from the things that keep us away from Krishna. Within the limits that might be there by our conditioning, imposed by our conditioning, we still keep moving forward towards Krishna. So, I will summarise what we discussed, three main points we discussed today.
The first point was about how when we are practising bhakti, in bhakti, whether somebody takes up bhakti or not, there is a rational side which is in human understanding and human control, and there is the mystical side which is beyond human control. So, Prabhupada, in his here, the prayer is to Krishna. This is more a prayer.
That’s why he is not focussing so much on the people and their free will. He is saying, I can do what is in my control, but whatever is not in my control, Krishna, you take care of that. So, we discussed how there’s a rational aspect and there’s the mystical aspect.
This fourth quadrant is the best. One is also good. We try to situate ourselves in one of these quadrants and we try to move towards Krishna this way.
That was the first point we discussed based on how Krishna, if it is Krishna’s will, then people come. So, why people come, it’s very difficult to understand. Then the second part we discussed was that Bhagavatera Katha, it’s Tava Avatar.
So, hearing about Krishna, what does it do? What it does is that the downward pull that is there, that will decrease. This is the first effect. And the upward pull that is there, it will increase.
So, this is the effect of hearing. And how does this effect come about? It comes about both at a conscious level in terms of we start remembering, we start experiencing. It is at the level of our buddhi, at the level of what we remember as it, but also at a subconscious level.
Subconscious level means, we discuss if this is Krishna, this is Maya. Initially, our mental floor is inclined towards Maya. But with time, the inclination of the mental floor changes.
So, that our mental floor is inclined towards Krishna. So, this is spiritually advanced. Then our mental floor inclination changes.
So, this is where the bhakti will become effortless for us. And the last part we discussed about is that renunciation. When we say by bhakti, the effect of the lower modes will decrease by hearing.
It will become free from the lower modes, which are the pujas and tamas. So, we discussed how there is artha. It is important, but when the artha becomes paramartha, then it leads to anartha.
So, the need for wealth, if it becomes a paramartha, then it becomes greed. So, money can become greed. So, control, we all need control.
That control can become anger. We all need some kind of appreciation and encouragement. We all want to be, we want some level of recognition of our service.
That appreciation, that is a value, natural need for us. But appreciation can become ego. So, all this with the arthas can become anarthas.
And finally, we can discuss also renunciation also can fall in that category. So, renunciation, it can come from bhakti practise, but it can also come from past karma. So, for us to know for sure where it is coming from is very difficult.
So, renunciation, people may not be attracted towards renunciation, but people are attracted to the result of renunciation, that is coolness, calmness. So, when we are trying to practise bhakti, we do not devalue renunciation. Renunciation can definitely help us serve Krishna better, but we do not overvalue it also.
We learn to value it as one resource in our service to Krishna. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
Are there any questions? One question I will take. Here. Yes.
Okay. Do you want to ask? Thank you so much for telling me so many of the past misconceptions and all what we have read. Like which one? Especially, I mean, I have actually coming to that also.
So, in NOD, we hear that how the person will come to devotion is based on some pure devotee’s mercy or Krishna’s mercy directly on him. But then now, like after today, we will say that there is unknown factor which we are not sure because it is only mercy or what we have done, like how we also came to bhakti through someone, right? Again, we are also not sure whether that was the only reason that some devotee gave us Bhagavad Gita or maybe some could have some other reasons in the past life, which could have, you know. Generally, in the bhakti tradition, what I have seen, when a particular factor is, particular analysis is done, often analysis in a particular context, and in that context, that particular conclusion will be reinforced.
Like there are many phala puranas. If you read Braj Dham Mahatmya, Vrindavan Mahatmya, Vrindavan is the greatest of all. If you read about Mayapur, Mayapur is the greatest of all dhams.
If you read about Jagannath Puri, Mayapur is the greatest of all dhams. So, which is the greatest? The point over that is, it is not so much like a rigorous analysis as it is more outpouring of the heart’s appreciation. So, when a devotee is encountering or contemplating on a particular manifestation of the Lord’s mercy, the devotee focusses wholeheartedly on that manifestation only.
That is the general mode. So, if, what is that? Venkateshu Prabhatam, in that there are two verses, one after another. The Kallabhenu Ravavasya, so that is, that, what is that? The last line of that? So, what is the last line of that? What he is saying is that, I don’t worship anyone except Krishna.
And the very next line is what, I don’t worship anyone except Ram. So, now the same, same is, I know no lord other than Krishna, I know no lord other than Ram. So, is it Krishna or is it Ram? Well, you can say they are both same.
But at that particular point, when you are saying Krishna, you are describing Krishna, when you are describing Ram, you are worshipping Krishna. But if we go to a Ram temple and taking an ashram of Ram, you know, at that time, we don’t have to go, Ram is not that great, you know, Krishna is the greatest. So, no, at that time, just immerse ourselves in Ram pastimes and fully take the mercy that is available over there.
So, the point is that we don’t have to compare. So, coming to specific answer, when analysis is done, often it is in a particular context and in that context, that particular thing will be emphasised the most. But you also have to understand there is something beyond the context also.
So, for example, if Jagai Madhai pastime has been talked about, then power of the holy name or the power of the policy of Mahaprabhu, that will be highlighted. Now, if you consider, it is in the Jagai Madhai pastime, it is Mahaprabhu, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Tyantra Prabhu who give the holy name. Their personal agency is emphasised.
If you consider the Ajamil pastime, you know, is it Vishnu’s mercy? No, it is that he just, there was no one urging Ajamil to chant. Ajamil just incidentally chanted. So, there the focus is not so much on somebody giving mercy as the holy name itself having that potency of mercy.
So, in different contexts, different things may be emphasised. Now, even when that story is told, Parikshit Maharaj is hearing the story of Shukadeva Goswami. On hearing the story, Parikshit Maharaj does not say to Shukadeva Goswami, Shukadeva Goswami, shut up now.
No need to speak for seven days. I don’t have to torture myself hearing for seven days. When that bird comes, I will just chant one Narayan and everything will be over.
So, no, that is Krishna has multiple manifestations of mercy. Krishna manifested his mercy through one utterance of the name Narayan. But here, that mercy is coming through the continuous Bhagavad Gita.
So, let us relieve that. So, that is why I think whenever analysis is done, it is within a particular context. And we also have to consider other statements in other contexts.
So, with respect to Prabhupada’s statement, this becomes even more important because Prabhupada sometimes will speak one sentence, one sentence very emphatically at one point, another point he will emphasise another statement. So, if you want to understand Prabhupada’s position, we have to look at in general all the statements that Prabhupada may have made on that issue and then try to get a more holistic understanding. So, we are always reading about Bhagavatam regularly and there is a potency of Bhagavad Gita.
Where does this purity factor comes in? Because many times we hear that when the speaker speaker should have the purity also, then only he can attract the audience. Otherwise, same person speaking Bhagavad Gita, but they are two different, I mean, one is a little like different level and other person is a very new person. But that much potency and that audience also may not be feel attractive.
So, where does this purity factor come? There is one factor, it is not the sole factor. Why? Because like we say Prabhupada was trying to preach for 30-40 years in India. Was he not pure enough to attract Indians? So, is purity the only factor? Purity is an important factor.
But can we really say that a some devotee, why, how outreach happens in the world? There is spiritual factor to it, which is going to say purity. But again, purity is not the only factor. It is an important factor.
But Chattayu was purely motivated to save Sita, but still he was killed. So, purity is the force, is it the only force? No, there are many factors that are there. And so, in particular analysis, purity may be emphasised so that people may, so that we are inspired to develop purity ourselves.
But at the same time, say somebody may be very pure hearted, but if they do not, they do not have any musical sense. But they do Kirtan. Is purity the force? Well, yes, and no.
That if we are especially having some new people coming, then we may not want a devotee, very pure hearted, but the devotee does not have musical sense. We have them singing. That may not be very, that may not appeal to people.
So, if purity is the only force, why do we have to build big temple? Is purity the force only while speaking and nowhere else? If purity is the force, why do we need to decorate the deities at all? That is, and if purity is the force, then why should we consider it only in the case of speaking? Now, is it that if the Pujari is pure hearted, then the deity’s beauty will be more manifested? Pujari is not pure hearted, then deity’s beauty will not be manifested. Somebody may be pure hearted, they may not be very good at decorating. Isn’t it? So, it’s a complex combination of factors where the other contextual factors also have to be considered.
So, that is why when we emphasise purity, it is to inspire us to also develop purity. But it is not that simple. If somebody has a very charismatic delivery, somebody speaks with a lot of humour, naturally they will attract more people.
Somebody speaks philosophical classes, somebody speaks more story-centred classes. So, those who speak more story-centred will be attracting more people. Those who speak more philosophical or more serious, they will attract less people.
Now, we are not going to say that only because you are telling stories, that’s why you are attracted. You have no spiritual potency over there. Or you are cracking jokes, that’s why you are attracting people.
No, it’s not like that. It is that there could be spiritual potency along with humour. There could be spiritual potency along with storytelling capacity.
But there could be spiritual potency without any of these things also. So, why success comes, the focus is for us to learn what we can. So, developing purity is one aspect of it.
But we can also try to develop other skills or also recognise what other skills are relevant. That’s why what I earlier talked about single factor analysis. That’s a problem.
You cannot have a single factor analysis. My question is that, like, as you were saying about your Navtas, and you were also saying, like, when we are very happy and inspired by something, what we do in devotion, but suddenly we see that the other devotee has done a lot of good distribution than us, and then we are not unhappy suddenly. So, in that case, like, for me personally, I’m saying that I get happy for them and I’m happy for myself, but when I hear that, I suddenly get demotivated, that I can do nothing, and like, I’m not happy, I’m not satisfied with what I have.
When I see somebody else doing, I’m happy for them, same time not happy for myself. So, how do I get out of this thought? I think we had discussed this in the first class about envy, you know, that how to, if that kind of envy or something comes up, generally, we focus on, we are envious of others’ achievements. We are very, we are never envious of others’ commitment.
So, the effort that they have put in by which they have got the results, if instead of just looking at it from a distance, why are they getting so much praise, and we are not getting it. But if we actually talk with them, understand what they have done, and then if actually I put in more effort than them, that may be true. But that just means that they had put in effort in the previous life, that purva karma is coming in.
So, the world is not, it may, the world is unfair from an immediate perspective, there’s no doubt about that. But from the ultimate perspective, the world is not unfair. That’s why I try to understand the context, helps a lot.
And another point that helps is that we understand that Krishna, Krishna has a place for me, independent of how much recognition or how much results I get in this world. Place that Krishna has for me does not depend on that. And understanding that is very helpful, that there’s mamai vamsho jeeva loke jeeva gotaha sanatana, they’re always parts of Krishna, will never be taken out of Krishna’s plan ever, will never be rejected by Krishna.
So, our spiritual growth, see the material recognition of our service may depend on various factors that are not our control. But our spiritual growth itself does not depend necessarily on the recognition of our service factors. Just by doing our service consistently, we will become more and more attracted to Krishna.
And that attraction does not depend on worldly recognition. So, it’s like when we are doing some service, and we do some seva, there is the social impact of the service. Social impact is the transformation of others, the recognition by others.
But there is also the personal impact of our service. The personal impact is our attraction towards Krishna. So, now while both are important, it’s our attraction towards Krishna.
So, social impact is the recognition of our service. So, now both are important, we are a part of a missionary organisation. So, naturally, we want results to manifest at an external level also.
So, it’s best if we could be over here in this fourth quadrant, this is the best. But even if this is not there, this is also good. So, we sometimes may overvalue the social impact, and completely devalue the personal impact.
The personal impact is largely between us and Krishna. If say every day we are hearing Bhagavatam, every day we are trying to distribute books, then we will be purified. We will be attracted towards Krishna.
So, does that answer your question? Thank you. Yes, very good question. People believe what they see, but a copper tiny chip in our device connects the world through Wi-Fi signals and frequencies, all invisible.
So, why doubt the divine, just because he is unseen? Your words on Krishna’s energy remind me quantum entanglement. How it lifts, pulls us based on our consciousness inner state. The truth stayed with me, like quantum entanglement, two particles once connected, remain linked.
No matter how far they are, change one, the other responds instantly. Distance doesn’t matter. Is that what happens between our soul and Krishna? We may be far, lost, wandering, but once touched by his presence, our soul stays connected.
One shaped in consciousness and he responds. Like once Tesla said, understand energy, frequency, vibration, and you will understand the universe. Even a fruit offered carries energy.
Even a silence can hold presence. Maybe the penal gland in our brain is a Wi-Fi for divine awareness. That’s why it’s important to seek inward and start meditation.
If invisible forces like Wi-Fi energy can connect the whole world, why do we hesitate to believe that love, soul, and Krishna can do the same? That’s probably one of the most well-articulated questions I have got. A lot of points in that, but I think the main point was about faith. In general, we often say people seeing is believing.
That is true. Now, seeing what? That is the question. So, much of science is based on invisible love.
You give example of Wi-Fi, another thing. So, there is, in the domain of our experience, there is much that is invisible and there is little that is visible actually. So now, is it that people believe only in the visible? No, people believe in the invisible also, but when the invisible has some visible effects.
So, if we consider Wi-Fi, it’s invisible, but it has visible effects. Visible effect is, I can see the picture of somebody else. If I’m doing a video call, I can see the picture of that person.
I can hear the voice of that person. So, when the invisible has some visible effects, then it is easier to accept that. Now, when the invisible does not have visible effects, that’s when it becomes more difficult to accept.
So, with respect to yoga, for example, or even meditation or mindfulness. Now, when we are doing mindful, when somebody is doing yoga, it’s not that there are hundreds and thousands of scientific papers published about the benefits of yoga. There are a few papers, but not that many.
There is nowhere the kind of research process that is done for, say, pharmaceutical medicines. That level of research has not been for yoga. People have seen the effects of that.
Somebody’s back pain goes away, somebody becomes fitter. So, visible effect is there. Similarly, with respect to meditation, as people are experiencing visible benefits, they’re accepting.
That’s why I said religion for atheists. The idea is that they don’t even believe in the invisible idea of God. So, now, in spirituality itself, there are two distinct ways of approaching spirituality.
There is the philosophical spirituality and there is pragmatic or practical spirituality. So, philosophical spirituality is where we try to prove the existence of God. We try to prove the existence of the soul.
Pragmatic spirituality is, okay, if God exists, so what? If soul exists, so what? How does it make a difference in my life? And now, so, in general, within ISKCON, our approach had been in the past, largely based on philosophical spirituality. Focus on trying to prove the existence of God, prove the existence of soul. But pragmatic is what is becoming more and more prevalent.
So, for example, now, neuroscience or broadly speaking, the intersection of neuroscience, consciousness, and mind-body connection and healing, that is becoming very big. So, consciousness studies, it is a very big field within that. Now, whether consciousness comes from something called a soul and therefore soul exists, trying to prove that is very difficult.
But if somebody chants mantras regularly, if somebody does meditation regularly, that actually has effects in terms of changing the wiring of the brain. And through various neural imaging techniques, the effects can be seen. So, the more we focus on the pragmatic aspect of spirituality, the more we can attract others.
And in many ways, why do we need to build big temples? You know, the idea is that people may not be attracted to God, people are attracted to the big temples. And because of the visible effect is seen, oh, if people have such a big temple, maybe there must be some influence in this. That is how influences also work, isn’t it? So, we need to focus on the visible effects of the invisible.
And quite often, when we focus only on the invisible as a principle without the visible effects, then it becomes difficult for people to accept it. So, the idea of God, the problem is that the visible effects are mixed. That idea of God has inspired many people to become more charitable and kind.
And the idea of God has also inspired or instigated many people to become more judgemental and fanatic. So, from the pragmatic perspective, what is the net effect? It is difficult to see. What happens is the negative effect of belief in God or you could say negative application of belief in God, that is very sensational and dramatic.
Some terrorist blows up something, some con man, some in the name of God swindles people, that becomes big news. But thousands and millions of people learn to be a little kinder with others, they give some charity, they become a little more humble and understanding. These are sensational effects.
So, in terms of the media’s portrayal, what happens is the negative effects of religion, they are much, much more visible, they are more newsworthy, they are more attention catching. And the positive effects are not that. So, it is a difficult case to make.
But broadly speaking, in terms of meditation and personal spiritual practise, it is a significant force. So, in general, in the West and the westernised world, more and more people are open to spirituality as a personal practise. And lots of people are, okay, if this helps you do it, I can also try it out.
But people are very, very averse to religion as a political force. So, at an individual level, if it helps you, you do it. But at a collective level, it becomes a problem.
Or that is the perception and it is true also to some extent. So, in general, when the visible effects of the invisible are explained or emphasised, then that can inspire faith in others. And that is the difference between say technology and spirituality.
Technology provides the visible effects much more easily. Spirituality also provides, we can say people give up bad habits. Somebody might be an alcoholic, they give up alcoholism and they start practising bhakti, they give up some anarthas.
And that is good. But sometimes religious people also develop some anarthas, at least in worldly eyes. They become judgemental, they become proud, they become puritanical.
Then that puts off people also. So, now is the relationship with Krishna and the soul something like quantum entanglement? And that is a technical question. But broadly speaking, what the phenomenon of quantum entanglement does establish is that the universe is much more mysterious than what was thought of by the ideas of classical physics.
So, now exactly which ideas within quantum physics can be correlated with ideas in spirituality, that will require a little more careful analysis and exploration. That can be done, we can talk one to one. I have on the spiritualscientist.com, I have a whole answer on quantum entanglement, you can go to if you search on that.
But in general, quantum physics has actually made physics less physical and made physics a little more metaphysical. Because classical physics was all about gross things. But quantum physics is almost entirely about subtle things.
So, definitely, what we can say is that as physics is advancing, it is opening the human mind, even the scientific mind to the existence of forces and factors that would have been dismissed as unscientific in the previous centuries. Thank you. I think we will stop here.
If there are any further questions, we will discuss in tomorrow’s session. Thank you very much.