Why Narada Muni gives spiritual wisdom through riddles; need for customized outreach

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Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Shri Advaita Gadadhara, Shri Vasadhi Gaurabhakta Vrinda, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, Hare Krishna.
Thank you for your patience, for my delay, my apologies. So today we are discussing a very interesting section from the Bhagavatam. I am also joined through my tablet.
Can you please make the tablet also as a co-host? That is CCD. So this section of the Bhagavatam primarily focusses on the theme of how true things, how bhakti philosophy or bhakti message can also be explained in an enigmatic, puzzling kind of way. And it can be also be intellectually stimulating, whatever word you want to use.
And also how Narada Muni focusses on renunciation. So I will talk this in two broad terms. This particular pastime in the sixth canto, if you can see the sixth canto.
Is the screen visible? The colour is clear for you? Yes, properly. So if we consider here, there are many, many things going on in the Bhagavatam. If we consider the overall Bhagavatam, first canto to twelfth canto, the purpose is to, there is one purpose of the Bhagavatam.
You could say it is to focus on Krishna. And this is specifically for Shukadeva Swami doing this for Kanishka Maharaj. But that remembrance of Krishna through the, specifically through the process of glorification.
That is the purpose of the Bhagavatam. And all the pastimes that are there in the Bhagavatam, they are at one level, if you say they are directly Krishna’s pastimes, they become like resource for remembering Krishna. If we have the tenth canto.
But apart from that, we have devotees pastimes. And these devotees pastimes, what they do is, they can also be resource for remembering Krishna, but they can be inspiration for remembering Krishna. Okay, this is how in this particular devotee, this particular situation, say Ajamil, he just chanted once the name of Krishna, of Narayan, even that too unintentionally, you can say, and he was not even a devotee.
But it is devotees pastimes or we could say human beings who become devotees, their pastimes. So we could say in the process of remembrance of Krishna, there are two things. There is the Guru and there is the Shishya.
So the Guru is the person who is the giver of, okay, what happened over here? Sorry, am I audible and visible to you? Yes, yes. So, okay, so the Guru and Shishya, you know, this is, so we have the Guru and Shishya. Now there are, the Guru is meant to offer both resources for remembering Krishna and inspiration for remembering Krishna.
Now this can be done in many different ways. So the teacher is the person, Shrila Prabhupada himself said at one point, there are two different statements of Shrila Prabhupada. One he says, I am just like a postman.
I didn’t change a single word. I simply repeated the process, repeated the message of my Guru Maharaj. That’s what Prabhupada said.
But in another place, especially when Prabhupada is talking about nectar of devotion in his lectures, he says, I practically invented the Krishna consciousness movement. Now, what is the meaning by that? So here Prabhupada says that, he is primarily talking about somehow or the other remember Krishna. That is, ye na kena prakaar, ye na mana Krishna ni veshat.
And he said that, when he says I practically invented the Krishna consciousness movement means that he’s saying that I provided, you could say innovative ways of remembering Krishna, of connecting with Krishna, of serving Krishna. Right now the book distribution marathon is going on. Now there is traditionally, there’s no such thing like a marathon or even the idea of distribution is not very common or widespread within the broad Vedic tradition.
The Brahmanas give knowledge, but the idea of giving books and having targets and then having deadlines to meet the targets. What is this? This was Prabhupada’s resourceful way of doing many things. What was Prabhupada was channelling the Rajoguna of his young disciples.
So if you consider this, what he was channelling Rajoguna, then he was adapting to the Western culture. Traditionally, the sadhus would just go and ask for bhiksha and then they would give some wisdom to those who were receiving it. But in the West, if somebody just, the idea of a sacred beggar, sometimes the word mendicant, which is bhikshuk, mendicant is not at all equal to a beggar.
That’s how it is translated. A bhikshu is actually, they are asking for alms, but actually they are giving something higher. So that idea of a mendicant, it is very much a part of the Eastern tradition, but it is very little present in the Western tradition.
The Christian monks, they would never go out and seek alms, the Catholic monks. And Protestants, they don’t even have monks. Most of the Protestants are aggressively against monkhood.
So Prabhupada recognised that this, if I send disciples out to seek alms, that’s not going to work. So Prabhupada created book distribution and served many things, not just adapting to Western culture. It also was a way of providing spiritual knowledge or providing access to spiritual knowledge.
So Prabhupada did many things. And most important, while he was doing all this, the devotees, their minds were absorbed in Krishna, thinking about Krishna, how to present the Gita’s, how to present the book’s wisdom, how to conduct oneself, how to pray to Krishna, how to be inspired in the Krishna conscious environment. So the point I’m making over here is that this guru has to be creative and resourceful to help the disciple remember Krishna.
And that applies even to any teacher. So depending on the level, the needs, the overall situation of the disciples, if the guru is here and the disciple is here, so now the guru wants to basically help the disciple remember Krishna. But this has to be done in many resourceful ways.
So how do you provide remembrance of Krishna? So if we consider Narada Muni to be like the exemplary guru, here Narada Muni is actually offering what you could say an intellectually stimulating way of remembering Krishna. What it means is that he is challenging the students that what he speaks, basically what he does is he speaks like a riddle and he’s speaking to the Harishvas and the Bahunaishvas. So when he speaks this, what is the idea? He sees their calibre.
There are other places, say when Narada Muni speaks to Dhruva, now he’s not speaking riddles over there. When Narada Muni is speaking to say Murugani, he’s not speaking riddles over there. But here he sees this is what is required for them to get the message.
And if that’s what is required, that is what will be provided to them. So broadly speaking, we can say this is Bhakti Yoga. People can come to Bhakti Yoga from the Karma Marga.
Or they can come to Bhakti Yoga from the Jnana Marga. Ultimately, when you want to practise Bhakti, it is Jnana, Karma, the Anavartam. We want to be free from Karma and we want to be free from Jnana.
Not actually free in the sense of getting rid of it, but free from the worldviews and the motivations associated with the Karma Marga and the Jnana Marga. So there are different ways in which people can come to Bhakti. So for example, if you consider Dhruva Maharaj, Dhruva Maharaj, Narada Muni instructed him and Dhruva Maharaj also came to Bhakti.
But that was largely the Karma Marga. Karma Marga means that Dhruva Maharaj wanted a room. And when Narada Muni tried to speak philosophy to him, he said, actually, honour and dishonour, they’re all temporary.
They’re all peripheral. They don’t affect the soul. Why are you getting so disturbed by this insight? Dhruva Maharaj said that what you’re saying is true, but it finds no place in my heart.
And so please give me instruction that is workable for me. And he gave him that instruction accordingly. So for him, at that point, he just wanted a kingdom.
And that’s what he wanted. That’s what he was provided. And then he was told to do some rituals, some austerities, pray to the Lord, and eventually got the kingdom.
But when he got the kingdom, or rather when he got the darshan of the Lord, instead of asking for the kingdom, he felt, my dear Lord, you are so much sweeter. You are a source of such greater happiness. Why should I seek anything else? And so that is from the Karma Marga to come to Bhakti.
So in Karma Marga, the message is simple. It is more of this is what you do. Practise this, practise this, practise this, practise this.
Now, in Jnana Marga, the message has to be, to some extent, complex. Now, why complex? Because those who come from the Jnana Marga, they are philosophically orientated. They have questions.
And unless those questions are answered in a rational, systematic way, unless their intellect is stimulated, this is something deep. This is something profound. Otherwise, they will not connect with it.
So that is required for those who come from the Jnana Marga. And that is what is being provided here. So Narada Muni is demonstrating the resourcefulness of the spiritual teacher, of the Guru, that if somebody needs a complicated message, that’s what will make them get it.
So that’s what has to be provided to them. We’ll say, now Prabhupada said, God is a person. And that was what Prabhupada said.
And now when Prabhupada is describing his own Guru Maharaj, what he said was, absolute is sentient, thou hast proved. Impersonal calamity does not allow. Now, essentially, these two statements mean the same thing.
So, God is a person, absolute is sentient. So these two are the same statement, but we’ll see the level of complexity of thought, the level of sophistication of articulation, the level of intellectual engagement needed to understand that statement will be different. Or let’s consider another statement of, so Krishna is beyond the senses.
Krishna is beyond the senses. That is a statement that actually Prabhupada sometimes makes. He would use the word, explain the word Adhokshaja.
Now, Bhaktisiddhanta Siddhartha, he had a statement that, he says the materialistic demeanour cannot, paraphrasing it also, materialist demeanour cannot stretch to the domain of the transcendental autocrat, something like that. Stretch to the domain of the transcendental autocrat. So now, what is he saying over here? He’s saying the same thing, that we cannot understand Krishna through our senses.
But this statement, you may say, why do you want to complicate things? It’s simple. Well, but for some people, it can be too simple. And then they will not feel stimulated, they will not feel connected.
Hey, if it’s so simple, it can’t be true. The truth has to be profound. Well, actually, something can be profound and also simple.
But sometimes some people need a complex way of presenting things. So this particular section of the Bhagavatam echoes, it’s an echo of the Upanishadic approach. The Upanishadic approach is basically for those who are intellectual, those who are the Gyanamalga.
So the Upanishads speak things indirectly through metaphors, through stories from which the inference is something which we have to draw. And that is what people need. Some people need that.
So his own Devamrith Maharaj has written a book, Searching for Vedic India. It is very intellectually stimulating. So when I was talking with Maharaj about that book, he said, Maharaj, the book is wonderful.
I felt that they needed one last chapter, which put together the whole worldview. Then that would have been much more impactful. Maharaj said no.
He said that I was aiming this book primarily for Ivy League students. And for those kind of students of that calibre, they would feel their intelligence insulted if everything is given in a ready-made package to them. You tell me the points, I will figure out.
I’m intelligent enough to figure things out. So don’t spoon feed me. So for them, sometimes if things are made too simple, then they feel that.
So what happens is for some people, simplicity, if the simplicity is there, they feel that intelligence is not taxed. Yeah, you know, why do you have to think so much? Can you explain this simply? Intelligence is not taxed. And that’s what they like.
But for some people, if simplicity is there, they feel their intelligence is insulted. Why are you spoon feeding me like this? This is also a different demographic. So depending on the demographic we are addressing, demographic is the kind of people, the particular group that we are addressing, we have to be aware and we have to present accordingly.
So here, the Bhagavatam is echoing the Upanishads and is actually telling something which is a very, in one sense, if we look at how the metaphor that is used and this particular verse, you know, I can go into the particular words, but I was trying to speak more on the broader principle of why this approach is there in the Bhagavatam. That the particular verse talks about how this is a house and this is this and this is that. And then that particular riddle has to be figured out.
And there’s a separate section where the riddle is being explained. But the Harish was able to figure it out. And that’s what stimulates it.
We can look at it as falena parichayate. As Prabhupada said, a thing is known by its fruit. So Narada Muni’s approach of being very intellectually sophisticated over there, that has the desired fruit.
And the desired fruit is that they are all so inspired by the message that they say, we want to surrender to him, surrender to the Lord, renounce the world, focus entirely on him right away. That’s glorious. That’s what happens and that is glorious.
So now considering this point, the next thing is that what approach do we use? In general, each one of us has our own nature, like let’s consider something like Kirtan. Say somebody who is, most of us, we may like Hare Krishna dhul, we may like some simple tunes. And our point is that we want to be absorbed in Krishna.
And sometimes some people have very, some singers, they sing in such complex tunes that for most of the audience, it’s the simple tunes, there is participation. It is participatory basically. It is a Kirtan in which others are participating.
When the complex tunes are there, then it becomes more performatory than participatory. That means the singer is singing in such a way that the audience can watch and the audience can be awed, those who actually understand the musical sense, those who say, okay, how powerful the throat is, and those things, those who see that, they can, they can actually see, so, so they can actually see that here, this is such a, this person has such great musical talent, but for most people, they will not be able to follow it. Now, should, if somebody has great musical ability, should they be told you have to always sing simple tunes? No, they should be using this musical ability.
But then if they’re going to do a Kirtan for the masses, that if there they start using very complicated tunes, where the whole purpose is to get everyone to participate and to sing and dance and experience ecstasy, then maybe the complex tune is not right over there. But if some people are really music lovers, and for them, if you use very sweet, subtle, complex tunes, they will love it. Both are absorbing themselves in Krishna, but both are absorbing themselves in Krishna in different ways.
So similarly, you know, with respect to the philosophical message, it can be simple for the mass, mass audience. And it may need to be complex. Sometimes the word complex has a negative connotation.
It is subtle, it is a little bit profound for the class audience. Now again, this is a generalisation. By class, class can be many different ways.
But especially if somebody is more brahmanically orientated, and not only brahmanically orientated in terms of one to two brahmanical tunes, but brahmanically orientated in terms of very serious about shastric study, about philosophical understanding. And for them, some messages can be very simple, and they will not understand it. Sri Prabhupada himself told the Bhaktivedanta Institute scientists, what he told them, he said, you speak the Vedic message in their language.
In scientific language, Prabhupada said. Why? Because for them, the idea that if somebody says Krishna is God, that is not something which an intellectual might be able to appreciate. So for them, we may say that Krishna represents or Krishna manifests the the primordial cosmological principle in the primaeval personal manifestation.
So again, what is that? Use that kind of language, primordial cosmological principle in the primaeval personal manifestation. So now for most people, what does this mean? Primordial cosmological principle, primaeval personal manifestation. So it doesn’t make much sense.
But for people who are intellectually orientated, they will be very touched by it. Oh, Krishna is that. First you can say Krishna manifests, and then Krishna is that.
They will be able to accept it much more easily. So there are times when a more philosophically intricate message is what will attract some students. Now the challenge is to know the audience.
Sometimes we may give a very complex message to audience which requires a simple message. And sometimes we may give a simple message to an audience that requires a complex message. So that is why understanding the audience is very important.
We will conclude, I will conclude with this point that if we have to understand the audience, then, okay, this is what is going on over here, then we will be able to figure out how should I speak. I will conclude with a personal incident. I have been travelling abroad for, I started travelling from outside America, outside India from 2014.
And as well as Radhanath Maharaj, a spiritual master, is encouraging me to focus on Western outreach and spend time in the West overall. So every year when I, after every tour, I generally meet him and give a report to him. So in 2018, after I had come back from a tour, I met Maharaj, actually it was not 2018, 2019, just before the pandemic.
So I told Maharaj, several devotees told me that my classes are very intellectual. And he said that people find it difficult to understand the classes. I said, Maharaj, but I find it difficult to change.
It is not that I am being intellectual. This is just the way I think. And that’s the way I present.
So it’s difficult for me to change. So Maharaj said that you don’t have to change yourself. He said that if you, if you try to be humorous like Gaur Gopal Prabhu, that will not work.
If Gaur Gopal Prabhu tries to be intellectual like you, that will not work. And then Maharaj, in his sweet disarming humility, he said that as far as I am concerned, I am neither humorous like Gaur Gopal Prabhu nor intellectual like you. So I stopped and I said, Maharaj, whatever abilities we have, it’s all by your mercy, Maharaj.
But Maharaj became grave and he said, but Krishna has gifted me with a deep concern for others. And with that concern in my heart, whatever I speak, it seems to inspire others. So he says, you don’t have to change yourself, but you just increase your concern for your audience.
So that was a profound instruction for me. So if say, I mean, if there’s a teacher and there’s a student, each teacher will have their own nature. The teacher can’t change.
But so the teacher’s nature is to some extent, it is fixed. But the student have their own nature, and that is fixed. But what we can do is, at least say, if this is the circle of the teacher’s nature, and this is the circle of the student’s nature, then if the teacher at least makes the effort to understand the student, what is the, understand the, increase the concern of the audience, increase the concern for the audience, not increase the concern of the audience.
Increase the concern of the audience, if the audience gets worried, what’s going on over here, then what the teacher can do is find an intersection. So, the teacher’s nature is the student’s nature. So, and in this intersection, the teacher concentrates the message.
Then that is where the communication will become more effective. So, it was after that interaction with Maharaj, I started thinking of what I could do. I wanted to convey deep concepts.
I wanted to analyse things deeply. That’s the way, that’s the way I, that’s what convinces me, that’s what attracts me. But sometimes that can become too taxing for the audience.
So, one of the things that I started doing was making PowerPoints to try to illustrate the concepts. So, during the pandemic, I made more than a thousand PowerPoints. But then I found even the PowerPoints were restrictive, because it’s all, I had to prepare it and I had to stick to what is there in the PowerPoint.
So, recently I started making, using these tablets, where as I am thinking, I am illustrating. So, what happens is this makes it, it helps the communication to become more effective. So, we need to understand our audience.
If we understand the audience as much as possible, then we can try to make the communication more effective. In general, if we consider our movement, ISKCON, if we consider in the West, broadly speaking, you know, we have Indians who are coming to ISKCON and we have, that’s like a large number of Indians. And we have a relatively small number of Westerners coming.
So, now the way, the same message has to be presented to Indians, the same message has to be presented to Westerners. But the focus needs to be different. The focus is often, if it’s not understood properly, what is the, what is the, what are the needs, interests, concerns of the audience.
So, for most Indians, it’s more of preserving our culture. Okay, you know, I want my children, I don’t want them to become like Western, Western kids who are into drugs and so many things. I want them to know about our culture.
And that’s why I also want to follow the culture. So, the culture is relatively important. And that kind of presentation is what appeals.
By culture, I mean more of the religious culture in terms of the practises. But for the Western people, culture, maybe one fact which brings curiosity. But for them, often it is existential needs and questions.
Existential needs and questions. So, what is the purpose of life? You know, my mind is so disturbed, what can help me to calm my mind? Mind disturbance is something which is there for everyone. But the more the social structure becomes unstable, relationships are not stable, families are not stable, the mind’s instability increases that much more or manifold more.
So, what is happening is that if we understand this, then we can present, tune the message appropriately. So, sometimes if we recognise the message, what is the need of the audience, and then present accordingly, then we will be much more effective in different places. So, that expert in Narbuni is demonstrating through this pastime where he is offering a very intellectually sophisticated presentation of spiritual wisdom.
So, I’ll points today. The first point was about the Bhagavatam’s purpose is to fix the mind on Krishna. But that purpose, there is a, there is a flexible process for that.
And that’s what we would, that was the, the Prabhupada said, I have not changed one word, but I have invented the Krishna consciousness. The message of fixing on the mind of Krishna is fixed. But how to fix the mind on Krishna, that is variable.
I gave the example of Prabhupada doing book distribution and introducing book distribution as a way of connecting people. And then the second point I talked about was how different people need different things. Some people need simple presentations, and some people need complex presentations.
So, generally those who come from the Karma Marga, they will need a simple presentation, simple message. Those who come from the Gyan Marga, they will need a more complex presentation. And Narad Muni does both.
Narad Muni does this for Dhruv Maharaj. Narad Muni does this for the Hari Akshavas. And the last part I discussed was, for us, what can we do? We can’t change our nature, but we can try to understand our audience and then find the intersection point between what is our nature and what is the audience nature and present.
That will make it much more effective. So, thank you very much, Hare Krishna. Are there any questions or comments? Hare Krishna, Anuradha Mataji.
Hare Krishna, Prabhuji. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Prabhu.
Very, very, as usual, very wonderful class. Prabhu, I had not related to the class, but as we were talking about speaking towards the end, how we have to understand the audience and also, I mean, we can’t change our nature and there should be an intersection. So, Prabhu, do you take any, I mean, is there any workshop which you conduct for the preachers and, you know, is there something and if there is, how do we access it? Yes, I’m planning that till now.
I have not done any specific workshops, but I’m planning that soon with probably the Bhagavad Gita. So, I’ll keep you informed about that. See, in general, on my YouTube channel, I talk something about Western outreach.
I have a class on communication. So, those are, it’s not a systematic course, but there are some broad classes. So, yes, I am planning to do that in the future.
Thank you for your question. Thank you. Thank you so much, Prabhu, and we look forward.
Yes, Prabhu, we are like, we are in a community, Kalachandji, Delhi, and we are mixed of Western devotees and Indian devotees. And the way we approach is completely different, Prabhu, the way that they are, not we approach how they are. And it’s, it’s, we have to, we have to immediately switch the gear when we are, you know, approaching the Western devotees and the Indian devotees.
So, and it is very difficult at times sitting, you know, when, whether through a class or any discussion to get through both. So, it will be so helpful if we have something and if we can access it too. Please think about it, Prabhu, and start it soon.
Thank you so much. Yes, I think it is a big challenge. Generally, there are two broad approaches to Western outreach.
One is like, you have two parallel streams and keep them parallel. Western outreach is one, Indian outreach is another. And we have separate centres for each of those.
But the problem with this approach is that, many problems. One of the big problems is that second generation or third generation Indians, they don’t really, those who are born and brought up in America or in the Western world, you know, they don’t really fall in the category of Indians. They’re not Westerners completely.
They don’t fall in the category. So what about all those who fall in the middle? But if we bring both of them together or we just keep one track for both of them, that doesn’t work. That’s a big problem.
So generally the idea right now is we have to have two different tracks and then gradually bring the tracks together. So, but exactly how that is to be done, there is a challenge. So that means initially we have separate outreach centres for Western devotees, separate outreach centre for Indian devotees.
And then after a year or two, after they have become a little more stabilised in bhakti, then the two can be brought together. That’s the approach which seems to be working, but it’s not always. There’s no one approach that has been so successful that it can be replicated everywhere, but definitely different dynamics are involved.
Thank you. And one more thing, as you were discussing, I was also thinking many of the training, if it is made accessible for the grihasthas also, especially in US, I was thinking, don’t know about India, but you know, often we don’t know what’s happening like as a preacher, but few of the communities are completely run by the grihasthas. So if we can also be trained when we go on Harinam or either way, we often don’t know how to behave with the Westerner and treat them the same way we do with the Indians, you know, a little more intruding and interfering, which they may not appreciate.
So if the grihasthas can also be trained, though, of course, those who are interested, that would be wonderful for the movement. That is one big difference between the Western and Indian. You know, we can, maybe we can talk about this separately and we can plan some modules if that is of your interest.
See, this is the authority and this is subordinate. This is broadly Indian or Eastern culture. It’s not just Indian, Eastern also.
And this has been the way ISKCON has been presenting traditionally. And we are even now successful, Russia, we are successful, Ukraine, we are successful. In China also at an underground level we are successful.
Where the mainstream culture is quite vertical, hierarchical. There, our approach has been successful. But the Western approach is largely egalitarian.
It’s, it’s more of the authority and subordinate are more or less equal. The boss is still the boss. But it is not that there is a lot of show of external deference for the boss.
So this vertical approach doesn’t work much for people who have grown up with the horizontal approach. That’s the way they are. So now, while we say that we have to follow the instruction of the spiritual master.
And that is true. But then, this is instruction. But then we also have the example of negotiation, as I said.
Dhruva Maharaj speaking, Narada Muni, Dhruva Maharaj speaking, Narada Muni gives a particular instruction. Dhruva Maharaj says, it’s not possible for me. Then Narada Muni gives another instruction.
So Narada Muni is not saying, you don’t know who I am? I am the Guru of Vyasdev. How dare you think that I can’t, that I don’t know what is good for you? How dare you challenge my instruction? Narada Muni doesn’t do that. Narada Muni negotiates and gives in something which is workable.
So a much more horizontal approach is required. And that is not easy to do. So yes, maybe you can contact me separately.
And then we can think of something if there’s a lot of interest. And I’m happy to do something in the near future also. Thank you.
Thank you so much. I will contact you. Thank you.
Thank you. I see some other questions. Yes, Sukhakar Prabhu.
Krishna, Shankaracharya Prabhu, as usual, your classes are really very intellectual, but very deep-rooted. And I really love your class. Prabhu, just I want to know, you said that you have to see the audience and you have to present in such a way, a simple audience in a simple way.
If there are little educated people, you would make it very allegorical, a little complicated way, but the same message. But when we give the lecture, there’s always the speaker has an intention to impress and give something good, a PowerPoint presentation. One is for understanding, one is for the sort of getting a good name.
So that is intention to present to get the name and fame that is again going for some desire. Or it is good that you should present the best way, high level. So there is always a confusion.
It can be very simple, a very simple class. Sometimes you see the big qualified people are from IIT and also then you have to do it in a different way. The same thing represented in a sophisticated way.
So how it should not take your pride on a super level when you are preaching or it should not, it should be as you said, it should reach the heart and that should change. That’s the prayer and intention. So, okay, now you’re bringing a different dynamic over here.
You can say this is the teacher, this is a student. So I was talking about the effect on the student and the students can either be, they may need a simple presentation, they may need a complex presentation. But what you are talking about is sometimes the teacher has their own dynamic.
The teacher can seek popularity and pride and that is why they may give a particular kind of presentation. So now sometimes a relatively simple presentation with a lot of humour, with a lot of entertaining stories, that can get a lot of popularity. Now, is that a bad thing? See popular, there is a difference between popularity and populism.
The two are not the same. So the two are not the same. Populism is where, like for example, a political leader just gives freebies so that they can get votes.
Now, oh, if you vote for me, I’ll give everybody free electricity, free water supply, free school, free this, free that. And how can you do that when there is no economy? You don’t have the money for that. You do that now, you get elected, the politician gets elected, but the government becomes bankrupt in two, three, four years.
There’s a huge ballooning national debt. So populism is basically, it is short-sighted or you can say short-sighted and self-interested. Selfish, selfish.
Self-seeking, you know, whereas now do we want popularity? Well, it is not that we want popularity for our sake, but we want Krishna’s message to reach a wide audience. So popularity itself is not bad. Prabhupada will also say that, like he would say that the test of a Vaishnava, I would quote Bhaktivinoda Thakur, the test of a Vaishnava is how many Vaishnavas have you made? So Prabhupada would say that means, and Prabhupada would say that in that sense, that’s not a wrong thing.
So sometimes some people will, some speakers are naturally humorous, some people are just beautiful storytellers. Well, that’s, I’m not using storyteller in a negative sense. I’m just saying that that’s their ability.
Now, while having that, while using that ability, how much Krishna are they giving with that, that is something which they have to be careful. So when that happens, then that’s what enables, that’s the test. So if the person is sincere, then they will surely bring in adequate amount of Krishna and Krishna conscious message along with humour and other things.
And sometimes they may just not do that to reach a particular audience, which is okay. If that’s what the audience needs. Now, are they doing it for popularity? We don’t know anyone’s heart.
So we don’t have to necessarily judge people for that, but we have to see that when I am speaking a point, is it that how do I decide the test success of my class? How much did people laugh during my class? Oh, sometimes the audience may have a laughter test for the good class. Oh, that’s so many jokes, wonderful class. Well, neither the audience nor the speaker should actually be testing a class based on the laughter test.
Laughter is good. There’s nothing wrong at all in laughter, but how much laughter is there in the class is not the criteria for a good class. Good classes where there’s good content and then there’s humour also with it.
So like that, we have to find that balance. And if we can become, now pride is always a concern. That is a challenge which we will always have to face.
And is it that a particular approach will protect us from pride? Is it a simple presentation will protect us from pride? Not necessary. Maya is so subtle. Somebody gives a very simple, basic presentation.
I’m simply following Shatrughan. And then I don’t get some, that person doesn’t get so much fame or popularity or whatever. Then will that, will that mean that they will be free from pride? Well, so somebody gives a simple presentation and they say, there’s no pride in me.
My pride is going down. But then somebody else gives a more, more complex or a sophisticated presentation and then they become popular. So what happens is our, we do not have pride, but we have envy for them.
Our envy for that person increases. So it’s a subtle thing that I may sing, I may sing Prabhupada tune and I may feel satisfied and say, I am faithfully following Prabhupada. And somebody else starts singing Hare Krishna in what we consider the Bollywood tune.
And we think that, you know, this person is compromising, but people love it. And then we start resenting that person. So the point is, are we Krishna conscious, whether we are being simple or sophisticated, but you see, are we Krishna conscious? And are we helping others become Krishna conscious? So for some people trying to be simple may take them away from Krishna consciousness.
For some people trying to be complex may take them away from Krishna consciousness. So we just focus on, focus on how can I be Krishna conscious? So as a speaker and as a teacher and as a student. So if we focus on that, then we will find our way ahead.
So the bottom line is how much proportional jeeves they are doing. How many people are being brought into Krishna consciousness, they start chanting. That will be the metre point to know that whether we are effective in class.
Yes. Perfect. Thank you very much.
Thank you. So now there are a couple of questions. How can we different when it is bhakti sentiment or other kinds of things? It is quite a big question over here.
In general, bhakti sentiment is not a bad thing. It is there is sentiment and there is sentimentality. So sentiment is something which we want because every relationship will have sentiments in it.
But sentimentality is, it is actually, it being controlled by emotions. So this is where it’s bad. So how do we do that? Basically, whatever it is, whatever sentiment it is, whatever it is not, if it is proper sentiment, what it will do is it will reinforce our bhakti practise, our standard bhakti practises.
That means if I experience some sentiment while, while say doing kirtan, while doing puja, if I get a dream of Krishna, now can Krishna come in my dream or any devotee’s dream? Who is going to stop Krishna? Krishna is omnipotent. But if after waking up from the dream, I think, oh, I’m so special. Krishna came in my dream.
So I am Krishna conscious even in my sleep also. I don’t need to chant Hare Krishna. This sadhana is for neophyte devotees.
And that is wrong. But if I think that, oh, Krishna is coming in my dream. Krishna blessed me.
Krishna is so kind to me. Let me reciprocate by becoming more devoted to him. Then that is so sentiment is positive.
So, and last question is now, thank you for your other appreciative comments also. I’m happy to be of service. Which is centre of audience while communication, how to identify intersection? Okay, generally, it’s difficult to know from the beginning.
But as we interact with people, if we just try to hear them and try to understand where they’re coming from, then we’ll find out more about bhakti is actually about it is reciprocation. So when we are speaking, it’s important to speak, but it’s also important to hear. So, especially if we are focussing on a particular demographic, we are going to reach a particular kind of people, we are in a particular locality, then we talk with people.
Sometimes we just think of people are talking mundane things. I don’t want to talk with them. That may be true.
But sometimes even in the mundane, there may be an opportunity to bring in some spirituality. That’s why we need to hear from people. So there’s a teacher and there’s a student.
It is not just teachers giving the message. The teacher is also hearing from the student. Sally Agarwal, the person who at Prabhupada stayed, Sally and Gopala Agarwal, her statements about Prabhupada are fascinating.
What he says is that Swamiji was interested in everything American. He said how the vacuum cleaner worked, how the tap worked, how the oven worked, how this worked, how that worked. Now Prabhupada didn’t go to America to learn how a vacuum cleaner worked.
Prabhupada was trying to understand how the American mind worked. And he was observing carefully, he was understanding his audience, he was learning about the way his audience thought and functioned, and then he presented. So I think it’s both, we just spend some time wherever it is possible, hearing the audience also, and we learn from them.
Now, of course, we can’t let them speak 90% and we speak 10%. It is, the percentage has to be appropriate. But generally, letting people speak is, or hearing people speak is also helpful.
Okay. Now, is there any book for Narada Muni for his understanding of Rai Papichi? I think many devotees have given classes, but I don’t think there’s a book