Give up dharma for bhakti Why How Mumbai Chowpatty Bhagavatam 3125 – Chaitanya Charan

This is an AI-generated transcript and it might not be fully accurate:

Hare Krishna I’m grateful to be here with all of you today at the lotus sweet of Radha Gopinat and we’ll we discussing today on a very striking section from the Bhagwatam which actually broadly illustrates the mood of the Bhagwatam. So I’ll use a framework called to discuss the session. We’ll talk about the context, what is going on. Then I’ll talk about some insights on this particular issue. So I just came back from the Middle East. I was in Dubai last week and two weeks before I was in Bahrain. So I had some interesting discussions with people over there and so I’ll talk about some insights over there about that and then the takeaway. So in the context is that we have 12 kantos in the Bhagat a total of 335 chapters and in many ways if we consider the Bhagwatam to be like a met meta discussion it is the discussion is between we could say at one level it is between sutagos swami and the naisha sages that starts from the beginning more from the first chapter and then in within that there’s a discussion between shuk Swami and Parikhit Maharaj. So with this discussion that is going on now there are many other further discussions within them. So right now there’s another discussion. Okay, it’s not that long. There’s a discussion between Vidura and Maitraa. So we are in that discussion. This is one of the longest discussions in the Bhagwatam. Of course we have Devut we have Krishna speaking to Udhava which goes over 25 chapters. Now within this particular discussion a particular theme starts and that theme so more or less the Bhagwatam. So this is like we could analyze the structure of the Bhagatam from different perspectives. One is from the perspective of the discussions but now we could from more or less within the third kanto from the ninth chapter onwards a particular chronological narrative starts that goes on till the almost the end of the bhagwatam and that is it’s the bhagwatam is like a biography offering a biography of the universe. Now it’s not exactly a biography. It’s more like a memoir. Generally when we use the word biography it refers to the full life is being covered. Memoir is one phase of the life like the book journey home sometimes it’s called a biography but is more of a memoir of one phase of the life so this is the bhagwatam is describing one day of Brahma that is what is being described one day of Brahma and within that within one day of Brahma there are 40 manus so the first manu goes on from third kanto till the Eight till the end of the seventh canto and the fourth manu is swam bhwanu and then there is a rapid fire going on just quick description the eighth kanto first few chapters and then from the eighth kanto onwards 8th kanto fourth chapter onwards third fourth chapter onwards till the 12th kanto there’s a description of this is the first manu then there is the baswat manu so there’s a fast forward with respect to other manus And currently the vasut manu is going on. Vasut Manu is which manu anyone knows? Seventh Manu. Yes. So basically it’s like when we study history then nobody can study history exhaustively. Oh that if we talk about the Indian Indian war Indian struggle for independence there are hundreds of incident that happened but historians make decisions which are the most significant incidents and they focus on those incidents. Now say in India there’s always a debate goes on or at least nowadays the debate is becoming much more that who got independence for India was it subashandra was it Gandhi G and there are alternative histories and alternative incidents are emphasized so now so each historian has a particular purpose and accordingly they analyze accordingly they emphasize so now if if we go for yatra and somebody had a wonderful time in the yatra then they will tell all the wonderful moments of the yatra. But if they had a dreadful time in the yatra, they will tell all the dreadful times of the yatra. Oh, the traffic was so much, the crowd was so much, I had to stand in hours to get food and this and that. So it depends on what our emotion is, what our intention is, what our motiv what our disposition is. So now Shukdev Gowami is a spiritual historian. He’s a spiritual historian means See he knows a wide variety of historieshas stories but he’s emphasizing those stories which will address the needs of his audience and what is the need of his audience see parikhit Maharaj has decided to renounce the world and then see we need to serve vayishnavas according to what is their particular nature what is their particular intention what is their particular inspiration Say if some devotey has got cancer very advanced cancer and maybe the devotey is 60 70 80 years old and the devotey says that okay I’m going to go to reindavan and I’m going to leave my body there now if we are going to associate with such a devotey we need to tell those pastimes which will inspire that devotey in that particular determination you know at that time if you start telling stories about how praupad said I want to eye on the battlefield and though we should go till the last moment we should be distributing books. Now distributing books is a noble cause but our focus should be to assist the devotey in the service not disrupt the service of the devotey. So if that is what has devotey has decided and if we decide to assist that devotey in the service then we tell those philosophical points those pastimes those uh those that kind of analysis which reinforces that decision. Now imagine if somebody devotees young 25 30 and that devotey gets cancer and that devotey says okay this cancer is an indication that Krishna wants me to die so I’ll go to reundawan and I I will just die peacefully to say that’s not necessary you know nowadays there are lots of treatments available there are mainstream treatment there alternative treatments there’s so much you can do you have a life ahead of you and if that devotey has that inspiration then we need to tell them stories accordingly so if If that devotey has decided that okay I am going to take up this challenge then what will the devotey do? We should tell stories of how you know devotees bounce back from setbacks and they recover and they rise upwards. So when Bakit Maharaj got melanoma cancer there are two phases you know first he tried very vigorously to try to heal and when it became clear that that is not working then He accepted it. Prahupad is also like that. Prahuad he was on his way to UK even when he was sick. He wanted to go to America but in UK his health collapsed. Then he decided to come back to India and he left his body in vindavan. So both modes are glorious you know wanting to continue on with one’s service till the final moment and wanting to immerse oneselves in Krishna till the final moment at the final moment. So bi has these two aspect effects we could call it immersive bi and inclusive bacti. Immersive means we turn away from the world and we focus on Krishna. So 12.8 in the Bhagita talks about this with your mind and intelligence absorbed in me you will live in merishna not saying you will attain me in the future he says you will live in me. me even now but then 12.10 9 and 10 Krishna says that you can also work for me fact this is what Krishna recommends later in 1846 when he says that the one who sees that everything in this world has emanated from me and everything in this world is pervaded by me. That person can serve me in this world. So that’s inclusive. Inclusive means what? The world is included in the domain of our service. So if you want to visualize this, we could say if we are here in this world and Krishna is above us in the spiritual world. So we could say immersive bi is we turn away from the world to serve Krishna. So for example, every day when we do our sadhana to some extent that is immersive. Now inclusive bacti is where we don’t turn away from the world to go to Krishna. We go through the world to Krishna because we understand that we have service in this world for Krishna. So broadly speaking the Bhagwatam’s model of bacti is more in immersive. The Gita’s model of bacti is more inclusive and both models of bacti are valid and valuable. So Arjuna wants to turn away from the world and Krishna says no you turn toward the world and fight for me. So both these models are valid and valuable. So in this particular past time what is happening is Brahma if you consider Brahma is in this mode of service. What is happening? Brahma G is saying that he has been tasked with populating the universe. He has been tasked with creating a facility for souls who want to experience life separate from Krishna so that eventually they can realize the futility of such a life and come towards Krishna and when he has that particular mood and focus the Kumaras are choosing a different focus so he describes what is describe moka dharma that’s what moka dharma no they wanted to pursue the world transcend the world without getting engaged with the world and this is glorious but that does not mean that what Brahma gi is doing is wrong or less valuable like if you see the subsequent verses describe okay the kumaras are glorious but then the bhagatam continues describing how the universe unfolded and the incidents that happened so brahaji service is also important the brahma is also considered a great soul so the idea is there are these two modes of service so In the bhagatam in this particular section or this particular verse we could say it described that the kumaras choose to focus on Krishna directly on vasu deva as it is said vasu deva pra as it is said so now so this is the context of what is going on so because shdeos swami is a spiritual historian in he’s reinforcing parish determination and that’s why many of the stories in the bhagwatam are more about immersive bacti than inclusive bacti but it’s not that inclusive bacti is not there it’s not that when pu maharaj is told that by his citizens that I’m starving it doesn’t say ultimately this world is temporary everything is dkala you know even if you die remember krishna and you’ll go back to god he works to provide for them and why we will discuss that shortly so this is the context part of what is going on now I’ll go to the insights part so So I was in the middle east. I just met one devotey or rather this is a devote’s son and he’s into big he’s into history big time and he was telling me that he studied some historians and he said the reason through recent history that Hinduism has always suffered and Islam has flourished is because Islam is very this worldly and Hinduism is very otherworldly. That Hindus are always concerned about liberation and in trying to get liberation to the other world they end up with subordination and domination and slavery in this world and while Islam talks about the other world they are much more this worldly in terms of their emphasis and he is saying that as long as Hinduism has this otherworldly focus it’s always going to fall prey to predators so I said that’s interesting interesting theory now and interestingly what happened for him was he said among all the Hindu groups that are there is the most otherworldly and as long Iscon is growing Hinduism will always keep suffering now this was what has got his parents very disturbed his parents are very dedicated devotees and you know it’s one thing for your child to not become a devotey at all which is painful But for the child to say I am following dharma better than you know that is very difficult for parents. So he says I understand sarata dha I understand Hinduism better than you. Now uh now uh so I explained certain things to him and I’ll talk about it from a broader philosophical perspective today. See let’s start with the concept of dharma and then we will go to the concept of parad. Dha. Now the word dharma has many different meanings. Now in the Gita itself there are about at least six meanings. If you go into a little bit more nuance, there are 11 meanings of the word dharma in the Gita itself. I’ve got a whole series of classes on this. But let’s focus on two meanings for our context. That one meaning is in 2.7. This is individual dharma. Arjuna is asking what is the right thing for me to do and then 4.8 is dharma sambhami yug this is collective dharma when krishna is saying I come to establish dharma he’s talking more about organizing society with a virtuous order so there is individual dharma and there is collective dharma so let’s try to understand both of these together While the word dharma has many different meanings and we will discuss those various meanings progressively. See each one of us belongs to a larger collective h and when we belong to a collective we have a dharma towards that collective and then that collective has a dharma towards us. So if we were work in a company then we have a job to do for that company that’s our individual dharma and that company has its dharma it has to pay a salary on time it has to pay whatever perks are promised so generally in any collective if you come for this class there’s a individual dharma for the collective so if you’re coming here you pay attention you keep your phones silent you don’t talk with others now but The collective here I if I represent the collective the speaker just doesn’t represent the collective the speaker has a dharma that the speaker should be speaking something worth paying attention to isn’t it? So if either side is not doing the dharma properly then there’s a problem but if both the individual does his dharma to the collective and the collective does his dharma to the individual then such dharma leads to ara. Now ara can mean wealth Ara can mean meaning, ara can mean value. So say when the audience pays attention to the speaker, when the speaker speaks something worth paying attention to, then ara comes out of it, some knowledge is transmitted and the audience gets some benefit. And this principle applies to everything. Say if we are traveling, if we are driving a car on the road, then when we belong to the collective, we have to follow the rules of traffic. And that is our dharma. And then the collective that is the road transport system they should be providing proper facilities. They should not be pulling people over and giving them tickets or fines based on partiality because you are belong to this particular race or you belong to this particular region. I’ll find you more. No. So when the individual does that da to the collective and the collective does the individual then it leads to ara. So now from this perspective dharma is not just moral. Moral means it’s like a right and wrong concept. It’s a functional truth. This is how everything functions in life. So dharma is a universal functional truth. Any larger collective we belong to we need to know how to belong to that group. And then we can do something worth something of ara. So now the challenge comes that we belong to many different larger collectives. So each one of us is a family may have a family we may have a we may have a job we belong to a particular country you know we may say if consider the devotey context then you know we may have a we have a particular temple we have a particular counselor we may have a particular guru Now currently there’s a tension in the nucon between are the devotees meant to serve the temple or serve the guru. Now the temple authority and the guru author guru is aligned together there’s no problem. But when the temple president is one leader and the guru is not really the authority above the temple president then should the disciple should the devotees faith and service primarily go to the temple or primarily go to the guru. So now we can say the temple is where you where you grew up. Temple is where you have learned temple is where you are being inspired but the guru is also with whom you’re connected you initiated. So what there is this whole paper called parallel lines of authority that we should be faithful to both. But the point is that we have sometimes multiple dharmas which pull us in different directions. So what happens but this principle of dharma is whatever larger collective we are a part of what we we give something to that collective and we get something from that collective. Now with this point clear let’s move forward. I’ll come back to the point of conflict among dharmas later but each one of us belongs to many collectives and the general principle is that sometimes for the sake of the larger collective the smaller collective can be sacrificed. So U Janaka says this and Vidra also says this Uttarashtra that for the sake of a village a family can be sacrificed for the sake of a country a village can be sacrificed. So the idea is that there’s a larger collective or in today’s context say no so that if a war happens now there are individuals who have their family responsibilities but when they go to war then what is going to happen to their family? That is a concern. But for the sake of the larger collective, what would happen is that the smaller collective would not can can be subordinated. Now, ideally speaking, this should be done in such a way that the smaller collective would never be destroyed completely. So, in the Ramayan it is described that um when they would have justice like when they would when the Lord Dash Maharaj this is decide before Lord Ram comes that when Dash Maharaj would both recruit soldiers no he would he recruited soldiers only from families that had more than one son. The idea is that no family should be left protectionless and then when in somebody’s committed a crime that is punished. He said he would not give capital punishment to any person who h and if if that person were the only son in the family. Now the idea is that yes we have to maintain larger order it is a fight for a country then what happens sometimes the lower unit it has to be sacrificed but now in some of the other niti shastras described that you know when sometimes two or two kings are fighting with each other And then your enemy soldiers are there. Now the enemy soldiers idea you if you arrest them they’re prisoners of war they can be killed but they would be asked if you’re the only son of your family then you should not be killed. The idea is that yes the nation’s cause is important but the smaller cause is not to be disrupted completely. So so now now the point is for a larger cause a smaller cause can be sacrificed. Now among all the larger holes that we have The largest is Krishna. The largest is Krishna says not only everything emanates from me but everything is also sustained by me. So that is one categorical difference between the largest collective and any other larger collectives. So what does this mean? That whether it is the family Whether it is the community, whether it is the country, all of those are sustained by Krishna. And because all of those larger units are sustained by Krishna, how are they sustained by Krishna? That everything that everyone does that is done by the based on the gifts that they have been given, the gifts that they have that determines what they can do. So certain countries are prosperous, we’ll see more Most of the times one of the basic requirement is there has to be some natural gifts. The Middle East is prosperous because they have oil you know. So Singapore doesn’t have any natural resources but it has a very strategic location. It it is island and it is in the cross trading routes of various places and it is flourishing that way. Now America is the superpower in the world right now. It is primarily because of geography. Now America has the largest flat plane in the entire world. So many times there are there are rivers which flow but if it’s very up and down then farming can’t be done and boats can also not go internal transportation not possible. America the Mississippi basin is the largest in the entire world and America is protected by two big oceans from two sides. So no other country has that kind of protection. So it is geographically it has certain resources. Now where are those resources coming from? They’re ultimately by the arrangement of God. So So if any larger unit say the parents take care of the children that’s it’s respons important and they do it but the parents use their intelligence the parents use their talents the parents use their energy where does all that come from that comes from Krishna you know mother when a mother offers a breast milk to her baby that’s her love but it’s not only her love it is she doesn’t do anything special to manufacture milk in her breasts when she has a newborn baby the same God who sent a child through her womb into the world also sends milk in her breast to nourish that child. So the idea is that Krishna is the sustainer of all all the subordinate collectives that are there. Now we can say yeah the country supports the family. Well yes and no. You know it’s very difficult for an individual to support their family if the country’s environment is not very supportive. But there’s a difference that a person with their family can migrate to another country. So if a country is not supported you can go out. So from all other collectives we can go out of those collectives but we cannot go out of Krishna. So in that sense Krishna is not just the largest collective Krishna. So he’s he’s also the source and the support of all collectives. This was prahalad’s message to kashipu also don’t think of vishnu as your competitor because it’s not just that your strength is vishnu strength is greater than yours and he is thinking that if I just become stronger if I just do more tapasia I just gain more power then I’ll become stronger than Vishnu and I’ll kill Vishnu but Allah says that’s not going to happen because Vishnu is the source of the strength of everyone he is the collective that sustains all collectives The source of your strength is the source of the strength of Brahma also. So now why is this important? With this point the verse which praupad quotes in the purple today that that so the idea is that see which are the larger collectives we belong to that may be those collectives specifically may be slightly different or our understanding may be slightly different based on our cultural conceptions. So broadly speaking in the Vic context three collectives were considered very important that Dave, Rushi and Bhutapta. So Bhutapta is in general it’s humanity. Then there is rushies the sages and then there is the dvtas. So there are three fundamental activities which are considered uh essential to dharma yagya dana and tapa. And these yagya tapa krishna also has a discussion in the 18th chapter when he says some people say that yagyan tapa should be given up. Some people say that it should not be given enough and Krishna says that these will purify even the those who are already wise. So what happens is as a part of our larger belonging to humanity for the humanity we need to do dan so from society we are taking things we may say okay I’m paying taxes that is true but beyond that we need to give dan now for the rushies we need to do some tapa. The tapa is by that we not only learn austerity but generally the idea is by through tapa we gain knowledge. If you see uh what is that 4.10 so by the austerity of knowledge they get purified and they come to me. So for the rushies we need to do austerity. sitting and understanding scripture it requires some austerity. So the way we serve the sushi the sages is not just by giving some inviting them for some food to our home or giving them some charity that’s nice but what is important is their contribution is they are giving knowledge. So the idea is we do the austerity of gaining knowledge and for the devotas we do yagya. So Yagya tapa are the way by which we harmonize with the collectives that we are a part of. So each one of us a part of a larger collective and we get something from them and we have to give something back to them. So the bhagatam vers is saying that yes we have we are normally run to these three we are indebted to these three but if we focus and entirely on the Lord then and if we are completely dedicated to the Lord then all the runas that we have all that we are expected to do for the other collectives what is expected from us see from each of these collectives we have got something back and we expected to give something back so all these runas get cancelled all these debts get waved away So we don’t have to do anything because we are contributing to the larger role and that’s the so the idea is it’s not irresponsibility. It is not that we are taking from a particular hole and we’re not giving anything back but collectively not giving anything back rather we are going to the source the root and contributing over there and because we are contributing over therefore there is no it is okay if we don’t contribute to the intermediate collectives that we are a part of. So this is the understanding of so you have many dharmas you are part of many collectives but if you surrender to me then even if you are not doing your dharma for the other collectives so sometimes If in somebody’s working in a software company the same person might be a part of two teams that now if there are two team leads both of them ask that person do this and do this now what is going to happen there’s going to be a dharma some mo should I do this or should I do that now I belong to do this team I have to do this I belong to this team I have to do this like we also maybe may maybe serving in different departments and each of the department heads may ask us come on do this do this And then at that time what should we do? So suppose we are working in the company it’s a small company and we we we know the head of the company we know the CEO say and we go and ask the CEO itself and the CEO says okay you do this but you know if I do this and I don’t do that person will get angry. The CEO say I’ll deal with that person don’t worry. So the idea is that when we serve Krishna then we don’t have to worry about other things. So coming back bringing this to our context what is being said over here is if you consider these are the kumaras see in some cases the bhagatam bhagatam treats plurals like singulars that means what multiple individuals are treated like one individual. So for example the gopy gita says gopia Uchu so it isn’t which gopy is speaking is not that important while while each of them is individual but they have a larger shared sentiment or a shared aspiration or a shared value system that defines them and that’s why they are all put together as a collective in the first kanto also when the ladies of kuruket ladies of hustnapur are praying to Krishna and glorifying Krishna as he’s departing now who are those ladies are this is that counti is that drapppadi is that are the general are they the general women of hustapur that’s not the emphasis the emphasis is that when the lord was departing from hustinaur he was so beloved he was so cherished he was so appreciated so who is specifically doing the appreciation is not important but he’s being appreciated is important thing so the shared if the shared sentiment is important then sometimes the individual is referred as a collective or the collective is referred to as by one common name. So like that the Kumaras there are four individuals but they are often referred to as one. So now the Kumaras they belong to the collective that they are children of Brahma and normally speaking what happens is you know parents have given birth to the child and therefore children are expected to obey the parents. So this is the normal system but then what is being said over here is because They are so devoted to vasuvi. They are so devoted to Krishna that their particular dharma their particular dharma to their father is canled because of that. So this way the idea is that for the sake of the largest dharma the lower dharma can be subordinated. The lower dharma can be given up. But it’s not so much about giving up as it is about going up. You’re not giving up. We are going up in the sense of our consciousness is expanding and our consciousness is reaching a higher reality. So now with this context in mind is giving up. It is true but the purpose is going up advancing towards a higher reality. So now this is Undoubtedly the emphasis of the Bhagwatam. This is also the emphasis of the Gaiaishna tradition. Chetan Mahapru himself renounced. Chhatan Mahru asked Rupatan Gow Swami to renounce. Having said that Chetan Mahapru did not tell Pratabudra to renounce. Chetan Mahapu also has that be where you are and practice bacti over there. So the idea is that there are both these strands of thought that we can just focus on the ultimate reality and then no need to worry about the intermediate realities. They are also important but you don’t have to worry about them. But then there are examples of people who are focused on the intermediate reality also. So if we consider even in the Bhagwatam the principle is that parit we can say parit Maharaj you just focus focused on hearing about Krishna and that’s how he departed from the world. He’s an example of immersive bacti. Just focus on the ultimate reality. Well, yes and no. Why no? Because that same Parikhit Maharaj when he was on the throne of the king at that time He was not saying that oh you know I don’t have time for the royal administration because I have to hear bodam at that time he was not only responsible he was not only responsive he was proactive what do I mean by proactive now when he heard that Kali has infiltrated into his kingdom he went on search to detect the signs of Kali and he countered that influence of Kali So this is actually a very proactive king. I was just talking with one devotey from Africa and he was telling me that in some of the states this is not to stereotype Africa but just to illustrate a principle. He said that in some places that the crime is so high that the police are afraid to come out of the police station. So not only that if you call the police the police will not come come to help. help you. The police feel that we need help from someone. We the crime is so strong, the criminal law, there could be drug lords or gang wars or whatever the fights going on. So now if you see the police are not coming out of the police station, you know, you are not meant to just keep yourself safe. You are meant to keep others safe. So you could say uh police department which says that you you know if you have some problem This happened to us one of our temples in in uh Australia. See in the west there is a lot of leftist ideology and the leftist ideology is what that it’s called be soft on crime that people commit crimes not because they’re bad people but because they’re in bad conditions. You know they’re poor, they’re hungry, they’re this, they are that. So many times people even if they commit crimes they are not even they are not even arrested. So it’s like they’re they’re not even arrested, they are not even charged and they are not even sentenced to prison. So it happened our temple uh one devotey came in the morning around 4:30 for Mangalari service and many of the temples in the west we don’t have any resident devotees over there. So we don’t have any brahmacharis there. So we have devotees who come to pujar like the devotey came and when the devotey saw that the temple almost broken the door was broken down. And then there was the hundi some something that had also been broken. So he he called the police. There has been a break-in. So the police said are the thieves still there. He said no no thieves are not there. Okay then there’s what can we do? Just report to the insurance. Insurance will take care of it. They didn’t even come to do anything. So now there was another case in America where a thief jumped jumped into uh he broke into a window and jumped into a house to rob. And in their home there were some kids which were were playing and a knife had been kept on the floor so that when the thief jumped in his foot fell on the knife and his foot got cut and the thief sued the homeowner and the homeowner had to pay $5,000 for his treatment. So their idea is you know if Hey, I did bargain to have my foot cut. So sometimes this is quite crazy the way things things work in the world. But the point I’m making is something different that that when you actually go when the a very proactive police department a police department what do you report crime and then they come h but if there’s a very proactive police department they have they have vehicles on petrol they have police is who their their main job is to keep driving through the city. So one is that you can detect crime and stop it or some crime happens you can get there quickly. So there are now generally when the police departments are well staffed only then can they afford to have police constantly on patrol. So we can say Parish Maharaj was like that he he himself was on patrol. He didn’t know where the crime location was. He said I’ll search around to find the crime. Normally you tell the police the crime has happened over there then they will come over there. So the idea is that when Parikhit Maharaj was the king he did not say okay I want to hear Bhagatam I don’t have time for other things. See the point is that if we are taking the privileges of a particular larger collective then we need to do our part for the collective. So for example we have this well-known incident that when now book distribution is very important And it’s going on big time. But it happened at one time that there were there were in the temple young mothers were told you just keep your babies with one particular caretaker and all of you go and distribute books. When prahuad came to know about that praupad said that I’m surprised that you’re letting your children be with someone else. They’re your children and these are vayikunta children. You should serve them take care of them like you take care of the daties. So the idea is that particular dharma is important. It’s not that it is to be abandoned. happened when praupad met his own guru Maharaj. So what happened at that time? He said that if I had met my spiritual master a couple of years earlier, I would have immediately joined his mission. But now I was married, I had a child, it would have been unfair to them if I abandoned them right now. So the point is that yes, we can give up a larger give up a smaller dharma for a larger dharma. But if we are already committed to a particular dharma, we not suddenly give that up without doing what is expected for that particular collective. There is a principle of loca loca means that we have to actually maintain the worlds and the worlds are maintained by individuals doing their contributions. So Krishna tells Arjuna that if you suddenly renounce the world you may think you’re renouncing it because because you’re detached from the world but people will think you are announcing it because you didn’t want to do the difficult job of fighting against your relatives there’s a difficult task you gave it up so if there’s a doctor and the doctor is working in the medical community and earning a lot of money and the pandemic comes and the doctor says I want to retire and all this is the time you needed the most he said no but it’s my life I want to retire it’s your life but this is the time when you are required Isn’t it? So the idea is that we want to take up a higher responsibility not simply run away from our immediate responsibility. So answering so I explained this concept but coming back to that starting point that this devotey son was asking me was saying that now Hinduism has fallen because of uh it being too otherworldly. Well that is a mis oversimplification of things. Yes there have been sages who have been otherworldly but in general The sages have not encouraged or expected or insisted that the kings become otherworldly. The kings should definitely support brahmanical culture and spiritual values. But the kings are not meant to give up their royal duties. Thehatrias have to be expert. We have the example of Shuaji Maharaj you know depending on either it is Sukara Maharaj or it is Santamdev or whichever of the story you want to take then the which but point is that the sages of Maharasha told him that you know you cannot renounce the world you have to establish dharma so the idea is that yes now why was India defeated well there are many reasons for it from a historical perspective India was divided into many many small kingdoms so India was never really united and there’s too many too much domestic politics was going on and one party was played against other party and uh was the fact that India was too otherworldly. That was a cause. Well, that’s a simplification. It’s oversimplification. Now, it is true that because of Buddhist influence, Ashoka rounds fighting and he became peaceful and he became a model for some people. But you know, Ashoka has never become maybe in modern India after Gandhi’s influence, you know, Indians India is said to attain independence on violence. So his ideal has been has been held aloft. But in the history of India was Ashoka considered to be by the various followers Dharma to be ideal king to be emulated. That has not happened. Ashoka has not really become a part of the Indian folklore. The way Lord Ram is the way the Ma Pandawas are or way the other kings are. So you know yes it has it is true that India has suffered or or historical times. But then if you consider another perspective, see India succumbed to aggressors many times. But in spite of the first Islamic aggressor came around thousand and till 1700 1800 when the British started colonizing India till that time India remained prosperous. No see nobody invades a poor country. because there nothing to nothing to get after invading the poor countries. It has to be rich in some way. So India politically whatever be the specific reasons why the kings were defeated. But the point is that India still remain prosperous. Dharma leads to ara. So in general India has to some extent rich national resources. India’s India geographically India is like in a mixed situation. We have very rich fertile soil in the north but then we have heavy flooding. It’s not flat like America. So because of that what happens the floods come and it can cause a lot of devastation. So anyway I won’t go to geography India but my point is that India still flourished. So ara was still there. So when did the ara really go away from India? It was not so much because of the Islamic invasion. Yes they came and plundered culture. really religiously but many Muslims they decided we want to make India our home and they wanted India to be prosperous because they made it their home the British they never made India their home they didn’t they didn’t want India to be prosperous so they could be prosperous they wanted Britain to be prosperous and they pulled all the wealth out of India so that’s when if you consider ara as the result of dharma then the ara collapsed because of subsequent factor vectors. So you know two things may go together I’ll make this last point and then I’ll conclude that two things may go together but just because two things go together does not mean A is caused A is the cause of B. There is a the difference between what sociologists call as causation and correlation. Causation means A causes B. Correlation means A and B go together. So now English researchers have found or researchers have found that people with bigger hands have bigger vocabularies. Now we may say what has the hand size got to do with vocabulary? Well, the point is people with smaller hands are children and their vocabulary is smaller. People with bigger hands are adults, their vocabulary is more. So it is true that people with bigger hands have bigger vocabulary but bigger hands are not the cause of bigger vocabulary. The two there’s a correlation. There’s no causation. among the two. So India has had a tradition of sages who focus on other worldly but that was not at the rejection of this worldly dharma. So both need to go together and so I told this devotey as far as the Krishna conscious movement is concerned yes prahuad speaks about focusing on the other world. Prahuad talks about brahmacharis and sasis but there are quotes of prahuad where he also talks about being responsible in whatever role we are in and as our movement is becoming more and more congregation based devotees are find learning how to find that balance between both this world and the other world. So the takeaway for us is the last part that is that for us that we need to be able to are dharma and bi now we each one of us needs to find that dharmabi harmony. So dhabi harmony means that whichever collectives I’m a part of, how can I contribute to those collectives adequately while also staying connected with Krishna. So if we are a part of a country, we have certain duties toward the country, we need to do those duties, but we don’t have to necessarily become patriotic campaigners for the country. But if you’re taking something from the collective, we do something for the collective. Now some devotees may by their nature, by their inspiration, by their role focus more on a particular dharma at a particular phase in their life and their focus on bacti might be slightly lesser. In other ashams, at other times their focus on bacti may be more and their focus on dharma may be less. So whichever the particular dharma is but the idea is that dharma and bi both need to be balanced. Dharma means that whichever larger collective I’m a part of, I make sure that I’m a part of that collective. And so this devotey was from I’ll conclude with this point I was in Middle East and this devotey was telling me that you know when he was in India he had his he had his particular spiritual guide he said that you know you don’t have to celebrate the Indian independence day or the republic day or all these are mundane we are not the body we are the soul and then he went to the middle east country. Now this is among this is a country where the country is relatively liberal. It’s considered like a poster child of liberalism in the Arabic world. So there the devotees were invited to the national day celebration. H so they said that in this although it’s Islamic country we will invite people from different religious groups to come for the national day celebration. And so when he went there and you know he shared those pictures was the social media and then that same spiritual guide he told me this is a great achievement that you were invited over there. So he was told don’t celebrate India’s independence day but that country’s national day you’re celebrating he said that is a good thing. So now you understand the context he said that we we were threatened we were persecuted earlier but we are respected now that is a positive but why can’t we celebrate India’s independence day this is our home country now we are not saying that we will celebrate India’s independence day more than yan mashi obviously not but if something has to be done dharma and bi both can go together and exactly how to do that that is each individual leader based on des kalapatra each individual devotey based on dish kalapatra they will decide that so I’ll summarize what I discussed today so topic was when can dharma be renounced for bacti So that was the broad topics and I talked about the renounced for bacti. So I talked about three things. Anyone remember the acronym CIT? So C was the context. So I discussed how the Bhagwatam is a series of conversations and right now we in the conversation with Vidra and Maitraa and within that is the biography of the universe and the memoir of one day of Brahma and within that We have in the first syam bhwamanu the early stages of the universe. So what is happening within that there are these two models of bacti. One is immersive where we turn towards Krishna and the other is inclusive where we go through the world towards Krishna. So Brahma’s service is more in the inclusive model and the Kumar’s service that they are choosing is more in the immersive model and both are val valuable. Then in terms of insights, we discussed how dharma is both ways and what the individual does for the collective and the collective does for the individual and we have many dharmas because we belong to many larger collectives and the largest collective is Krishna. So if we are doing something if we not just doing something but we are dedicating ourselves to Krishna then the lower dharmas can be given up. So it’s not so much while it will be called as giving up It is more going up. We are rising to higher level of consciousness. And in that way now we discussed while this is valid and valuable there are examples of both in the Bhagwatam. We have examples of the sages that the sages were practicing largely immersive but we also have kings even parit Maharaj himself when he was a king he was practicing inclusive proactive as a king like a police on petrol to find out where there is crime. So it’s not that either of them has to be given up or at least the principle is that when we are a part of a larger collective we are taking something from the collective we can’t give it up. So the takeaway is that for us we all need to find we cannot get so caught in dharma that we completely forget bacti at the same time in the name of bacti we cannot give up dharma. So So if we do only dharma then what will happen is we will just become mundane and if we become only bi now when I say only bi that means we don’t consider then we will become irrelevant we’ll become impractical we won’t be able to contribute in the world at all so now the balance is something which according to dishaka kalapatra each individual has to find thank you very much. Hurry Krishna. Is there any one quick short question? No, it’s over time already. Thank you very much.