How Bhishma convinced Yudhishthira – Balancing dharma & bhakti, Vancouver, Bhagavatam 1.9.20

My dear Lord, please guide us all, so that we can understand the deep wisdom in your words and texts, and can align our lives accordingly. Hare Krishna. So today morning, we are discussing one of the most evocative sections from the Bhagavatam, which reflects a theme common in the Bhagavatam that is death. So, and I was speaking on a verse from the Bhagavatam, I try to use a three point framework. I call it chit.

Chit means consciousness. So we can look at the context of the words, and we can look at the implication, what all is going on over there. What does it mean? What is happening? And then take away.

What does it how does it apply to all of us? What can we learn from it? So I’ll use that same framework today. And now the context of the Bhagavatam here is that this is the drama after the drama, drama after the drama, or you could put it actually another way, it is the trauma after the trauma. What do I mean by this?

That the war has got over, and we could say the war is the real action, like in a, you know, if it is a typical movie, and there’s a climactic confrontation between the hero and the villain, and finally after a great fight, the hero defeats and destroys the villain, and then we expect the hero to be victorious, and now that we are victorious to celebrate, and to have joy, and there is a happy ending. But here, after the war is over, the drama of the war is over, but then suddenly there’s a new drama. Instead of a happy conclusion, here the king for whom the war was fought that King Yudhishthir is saying I cannot be the king. I I can’t I just can’t. He is burdened by guilt.

So, sometimes people, some people who make a lot of, issues about small things, like some people like, somebody that drama queen. You see, you know, they make a big issue out of small things. Now is Yudhishthir Maharaj ruling that? Not at all. He’s a virtuous king, but for him he just, this is an unexpected twist.

He doesn’t want to be the king. Now if you look at it from his experiential perspective, there is a trauma. What has happened for him? That the war took a very, very heavy toll for Yudhishthir. Now he always had second thought, should I fight or not fight?

He went along with the fight because he realized that Duryodhan was never going to learn. When they tried to arrest Krishna, they had tried to dishonor Draupadi first then they tried to dishonor Krishna. That is when the Pandavad decided. This far and no further, they had to draw a hard line over there, and they fought. But unfortunately the war took a heavy toll.

Now what was the trauma of the war? There is a term called a Pyrrhic victory. Pyrrhic victories where the victory costs more than what you gain from the victory, And the Pandavas felt like that. Why? Because all their sons killed.

And the whole war was fought at one level to resolve a succession struggle, And we succeeded, but there was no successor left to succeed after them. What why did we fight it all? What did we fight it all for? And among all the sons that were killed, Anushtira especially felt guilty about the death of Abhimanyu, because it was he who had requested Abhimanyu to go into the enemy formation. Drona had formed a chakra view to kill to at least arrest Yudhishthir.

And Abhimanyu had said you go in and bring the chakra view we will follow and will destroy from inside. But Abhimanyu went in and was trapped and he was killed. And then, what was the last blow for Adi? Abhimanyu was Karana’s identity. When his mother revealed that Karana was her first born son, Yudhishthir was shattered completely.

Now, he had always thought of Karana as a mortal enemy, and he said I celebrated my brother’s death. I danced in joy when he was killed. He said that, and my brother he had an opportunity to kill me, and yet because he knew I was his brother because he had promised my mother. He didn’t kill me. So for a for a virtuous person to do a bad thing, even unknowingly is bad, but for a virtuous person to discover that a person who they thought that was bad was actually good, and not only good, but better than them.

That is devastating. That is just completely shattering for the very identity of who I am, and who I am meant to be. Like there is a moral hierarchy where we are here, and say somebody else is over here. So, Indesh was not proud, he was always humble, but still, He thought that Karana was a bad person, and Karana had chosen to be the side of, of the Kauravas, and he was a virtuous person, but this was his conception. This is how the moral hierarchy was, but what he realized was that actually he at least this is how he felt.

I am down here, and Karna is somewhere up here. And Yudhishthir, his, his revelation or what he felt was the reality was like this, and he felt how can I possibly be the king? I just can’t, and nobody could make him see sense at that time. Nobody could make him change his mind, and finally Krishna got him to come to Bhishma. At one level, this seems to be the worst thing to do for him, because if he is racked by guilt already, then to bring him in the presence of a person who has been killed because of what he thought is his lust for war.

His, this is a blood lust or property lust or whatever. To bring him in the presence of that person seems completely counterintuitive and on top of that, Bhishma is not in dead. He is lying in pain and the pain Yudhisht would naturally feel that it’s because of me. So now Yudhishthir and Krishna, sorry Krishna understood Bhishma’s heart, and Bhishma understood Yudhishthir’s heart. So the first word that Bhishma speaks when he sees Yudhishthir is amazing.

This every single words in this conversation is just a gem of not just wisdom, but it’s also a revelation of the character of Bhishma. So normally if you go to a hospital, where somebody is having a terminal cancer, and they are in great pain. Normally our first question would be, how are you? We would have concern for them. Oh, it is so sad something like this happened, but you know, we will try to encourage them, but first we think they are in distress, but the first words that Bhishma speaks is.

He says, he is just seeing all you see what a bad situation I am in. He says to you this year, how many adversities and atrocities did you have to face? And then he basically talks about the the complexity of morality in the world. He says, he gives a list, you lost your son and your grandmother became a widow. Now you this still may think that, oh, no.

Actually I’m not suffering, you are suffering. So Bhishma notices that, and immediately he shifts his focus from when he says you, I’m not referring to you, I’m referring to your mother. Now, Bhishma is also trying to soften Yudhishthir’s heart towards his mother, because Yudhishthir feels extremely angry with Kunti, because of the etiquette of respecting one’s mother. He doesn’t blast out at her. But this is one place where he does still curse, that women will never be able to keep secrets, he says.

It’s more expression of anger from his part, but he feels, how could you have not told me that the person I was fighting against, the person I was plotting to kill, the person whose death I celebrated that person was my brother. How could you never tell that to me? He says, wasn’t I a stakeholder in this? So, he’s also trying to help Udish to soften his heart towards Kunti. She has suffered a lot, and in many ways, actually her suffering was more than the Pandava’s suffering.

As a parent, you know, we would be ready to do anything to prevent any suffering from coming on our children, and if there is we will be ready to do anything to protect our children from suffering, and if we are in a position where we can do nothing to protect our children who are suffering. That is most painful and that was the plight of Kunti. And in all the political intrigues that were happening, her sons were being targeted, and there is practically nothing that she could do at that time. So, so Bhishma is highlighting to Yudhishthir that actually everybody is being Yudhishthir over here. That, even if you think she made a mistake, even if you think you made a mistake, the life is messy.

And, in many ways, the Bhagavatam is spoken in the shadow of the Mahabharata. Whether in the shadow of the Mahabharata, shadow of the war that has happened. And in general, there can be many kinds of sufferings in life. But among the various kinds of sufferings, we could say there are different degrees. There is adversity, aho kashtamatasis, then there is atrocity.

So, the adversity is more natural. So, if our power supply goes off that’s adversity. Atrocity is more intentional done by someone. So if a power supply goes on, that’s adversity. If you come to know our neighbor cut off our power supply, that’s atrocity.

But for a responsible person, probably the greatest suffering is agony. Agony means not just bad things happen to us, or bad things are done to us. It is bad things have to be done by us. Sometimes life leaves us with just no good option. Now, one of my close friends is in HR, and he told me that the word, the part of his job that he just does not like is firing people, and especially when the pandemic came, they had to release a lot of people, and he’s just detested.

But it’s like, if I, we don’t let those people go, and the whole company will go under, and nobody will have a job. So what do I do? Sometimes life brings us into positions, where there is no good choice. And that is what burden the responsible person the most. So Krishna, a Bhishma is telling, you this day, he goes to various reasons.

Why do you think this happened? Then such suffering on you who is a virtuous person. Not only were you wise, but you also took guidance from the wise. You always try to follow Dharma. You always were sheltered in Krishna, and still such things happen to you.

So he goes on to say that, whatever happens, it is ultimately within the plan of the Lord. So we can visualize the scene. Bhishma is on a bed of arrows. When we use the word bed of arrows, that’s a euphemism which conveys the idea of something that is completely opposite to what you would think is a bed. On our bed, even if there is some small lump, we will move here and there to try to get that bump away.

If there’s small bump or lump, if there is something sharp, we will say I’ll sleep somewhere else. But he’s in a bed of arrows. So he’s in the middle of the battlefield, where all the drama and the trauma has happened. And now Yudhishthir is talking with Bhishma, he’s lying there, and Bhishma is speaking, and Bhishma says everything is the plan of the Lord, and he tells him that okay, now Yudhishthir’s problem is he’s feeling guilt right now. That I caused the death of everyone.

Now, Bhishma does not go into the specifics of the ethics. Okay. Was there to seem to fight right? Was there to seem to fight wrong? Because in many ways, right and wrong is very difficult to do.

And we all have certain frames of reference by which we decide what is right and what is right. So the implication over here is that how do you free a person from guilt who is who’s wracked by that right now, overwhelmed by that. So there is, so what he’s telling, there is a there is a divine plan. That everything is happening within the divine plan and that divine is not somewhere far away. This is here only.

He He said that is the worst we have come to be, then that Krishna whom you thought was your friend, was your relative, that Krishna is actually God. So he is telling, yes the divine plan is operational, sometimes you may say does God care? Is God even in charge? Is God not only cares, God cares so much that He is right. He says the divine plan is going on in your life.

Is going on in your life right now. And how does he persuade Yudhishthir? As I said, he does not go into an elaborate analysis of the ethics of war, because everybody else has tried that approach. If you look at the discussion before this, you know, Vyas Devas tried it, Krishna himself has tried it, Arjuna, and the Pandavas, and everybody has tried it. So he talks about dharma and bhakti.

So basically, because dharma is moral virtue, is morality. Or you can say ethics. Morality and ethics are similar, but ethics is more like a system of morality. But either way what he said is That ethics, and bhakti is, of course, devotion. So broadly speaking, the way the analysis is done over here is that if we consider, Dharma is the right thing to do, and Bhakti is the right mood in which we do the thing.

We do it for pleasing Krishna. So now sometimes there can be Adharma that can happen. And there then somebody can be Abhakti. Now Abhakti is not something that Abhakti is the word, but Abhakti is that no something is done without emotion. So if we consider these four quadrants in a clockwise sense, now which is the best place to be situated?

Fourth. Fourth quadrant that we do things to please Krishna out of love for Krishna, and we do the right thing. We are moral and we are devoted. In fact, this is what Krishna talks about in 12.12 to 19 in the Bhagavad Gita. He talks about, 12.13 to 19.

He talks about characteristics that embody that attract a devotee to him. And here devotees dear to Jesus. It’s interesting in those qualities, Krishna does not say a devotee who chants 16 rounds everyday, or a devotee who wakes up for Mangalarati, or a devotee who fasts in Jalani kadashi, a devotee who visits Vindavan. Krishna is not talking anything about devotional qualities. They’re important.

But there Krishna is focusing on behavioral qualities. That somebody who is compassionate and kind to others, somebody who is not agitated other, somebody who is who is who is calm, who is self satisfied, who is basically qualities that anyone can appreciate. There’s one time when Prabhupada was asked by a newspaper journalist, how can we know your followers? And Prabhupada said, they are perfect gentlemen ladies. They’re perfect gentlemen.

So the idea is, that this is the best quadrant to be in, where the dharma, and there is brukti. However, sometimes life is so complex that sometimes one may not be able to decide what is Dharma or sometimes one may do something which one considers as Dharma, but later on find out it is a Dharma. But as long as the heart is in the right place, he says that eventually Krishna will take care. So, now we could say, there is dharma and there is bhakti both are important, but dharma cannot be neglected for the sake of bhakti. So dharma means the morally or the materially right thing to do.

So dharma has both a moral meaning to it, as well as a functional meaning to it. I’ll talk more today about the concept of dharma, but the point is that dharma is that when we function in the material world, there is a right way to function in the material. If we’re driving, driving in the road, we have to follow the right side of the road. If we don’t, we may think I’m serving Krishna. I mean, we’re going the wrong side of the road.

Still we will pulled over, or we may be with an accident. So Dharma is the materially, the legally, the morally, the functionally right thing to do. Somebody may have bhakti, but if they don’t have dharma, then say suppose somebody is cooking for a big festival, and they don’t know any cooking at all. Then they may cook with great devotion, whenever the every cooking, everything they do is listen to cooking, they have a nice kirtan going on, they offer prayers to Krishna. They do everything right, and they but they just have no knowledge of cooking.

So what will happen is, Krishna will be pleased by their cooking, and only Krishna will be pleased. At material level things won’t work. So in the material world for functioning, Dharma and Bhakti both are important. Somebody has Bhakti, that’s wonderful. For pleasing Krishna, that’s wonderful.

Like in the Ramayana, in the story of the squirrel also bring some dust, some for building the bridge. Lord Ram said to the great monkeys that what you are doing and what that squirrel is doing. I am pleased with both of you, because both of you are doing your best. So from the Lord’s perspective, the Lord is Bhavagrahi, the Lord looks at the heart. However, from the practical perspective, the squirrel did not help in building the bridge much.

There were the giant monkeys who brought giant boulders, and that’s how the build bridge was built. So the point I’m making is, the material world is a harsh place. The material world does not care for our fine sentiments. The material world works based on some rigid realities. And if somebody is, does not have the right judgment, even if their heart is right, it doesn’t work.

That, so sometimes when good people can make bad choices, good people I mean, people whose heart is in the right place, whose heart is in the right place, they may also make some wrong decisions. So so now, if you consider among these four quadrants, that we could say this is there is no Dharma and there is no bhakti, that is the worst. That means that person is not doing anything material right, nor they are doing devotionally right. That means say if you consider this could be complete Tamas. Say there are parents, the parents have no spiritual conception themselves, they have no interest in raising their children spiritually, but the parents are not taking care of the children material roles.

Where the parents are high on drugs, and they don’t even know their child exists. So there’s no material responsibility, there is no devotional, attachment or connection that we could say is the worst. Now, somebody might have Dharma, but no bhakti. Like say we may say that there might be some parents who may not, care at all about Bhakti, but they care for the material well-being of the child. If the child is sick in a hospital, they will be ready to sell everything to save the child’s life.

Then we’re ready to move heaven and earth to take care of the child. So such so caring for dharma and not caring for bhakti. That is better than not caring for either. You at least you are trying to do the right thing, even if our heart may not have the right attitude. This is that our we are not really thinking of serving Krishna, being understood to Krishna.

Now on the other hand, if there is bhakti, but there is no dharma, that means material one does not consider what is the right thing, one does not use good judgment, one does not make proper analysis of things, then there will be material consequences. Now can Krishna intervene and protect from material consequences? Yes. Of course, he can, and sometimes Krishna does, But a devotee does not demand that. A devotee does not expect that.

There is suppose we have to catch a flight, and before we are we are having a program, and there is some very spiritually curious person. We spend a lot of time talking with that person, and we get late for the flight. I say Krishna please, Krishna please arrange for some problem with the technical details of the flight so that the flight gets delayed, and I reach on time. Now if it happens, wonderful. But we can’t make that as a pattern and expect Krishna, I won’t care for what is material right thing to do, and Krishna you take care of everything.

Now so a, now adharma can also refer to immorality. Now, when I am using the word Adharma over here, I am using it both in the functional sense and in the moral sense. Later on after this verse, Bhishma will make a remarkable statement. He says, So he says, just, and Prabhupada translates, because I’m a pure devotee. Because I’m a pure devotee, just see.

Okay. Krishna has come to rescue me. Okay. The mercy that the Lord has bestowed upon me, that he has come to free me from this material, as Prabhupada used the word tabernacle, from the material entanglement. He has come at my last noon, and I am about to leave my body.

Krishna has come to give So what is he saying? He’s saying that, even if I did something which is wrong, I fought against Krishna. I shot arrows at Krishna, and in spite of that my heart was in the right place. My heart was in the right place, and just see how Krishna has rewarded me right now. So now, you will see how Krishna has rewarded me.

You could say, Krishna didn’t reward you. You are lying on a arrow bed. You are in pain. You suffered. The only defeat in your life, you suffered.

Like somebody has a spotless record in their in their entire life. So sometimes players never lost a single match, and the final match they lose. So that’s a, it is, it is, it is at the very least it is a stain on their record. Now we could say Bheeshma lost before that at Virat also, But it was more of a, it is not, it’s not a war with lethal consequences. Arjuna did not want to kill Bheeshma, Bheeshma did not want to kill Arjuna.

He just wanted to come to a detent at that time. This was a war with serious consequences. So practically, this was the only time he lost in a major battle with major consequences, and he is saying that what how would Krishna protect? So the principle over here is twofold, that there is the spiritual, and there is the material. Now, the material will operate according to material principles, and there will be material consequences.

So if we are careless about material things, there will be material consequences. If somebody has diabetes, and they are given, say, Doctor has told them no damage sugar. They say this is not sugar, this is Maha Prasad, and they take the entire laddoo. Well, at a spiritual level, there’ll be spiritual consequences. At a spiritual level, they will be purified by eating that blood.

But at a material level, the sugar level will spike up. They may have to be admitted in the hospital. Even if you take it with a very prayerful attitude, doesn’t make any difference, because there are material principles over here. So what is he saying that Dharma and bhakti both have to go together. So at one level is to understand this point, and conclude with this point, and then go to last part take away that at one level is only bhakti, at another level is only dharma.

So dharma at the level of bhakti, or dharma at the cost of bhakti, or bhakti at the cost of dharma. Both of these are unsustained. What we need is in between is both. So only bhakti So now, Bhishma’s decision to stick to the side of the cover was turned out to be wrong. So, but still his heart was in the right place.

So, when there is only bhakti we will have spiritual good, but not material good. If you Srila Prabhupada what did he say? The last instructions about how will Krishna consciousness spread Prabhupada said it will through organization and intelligence. Prabhupada didn’t say just for chanting Hare Krishna or, worshiping the deities, yes all those are important, but we also need organized intelligence because we are in the material good. There is only dharma there may be material good by that, but not spiritual good.

So we need both. So in many ways, Bhishma is over here. Bhishma chose the wrong side, and a material level there are consequences, but Krishna did not overlook his bhakti. Krishna still rewarded him. And now what is he saying?

To you this year, is he saying you also come on this side, he said no. He’s saying, going back to this quadrant, so basically if you look at these four patterns, Bhishma’s life was more or less on this side. Now he’s telling Yudhishthir that even if Yudhishthir in war, he is telling him even if you are in this side, since now you have the opportunity to come here post war. Why? He says that there is the whole kingdom that is devastated, and for restoring the kingdom, for taking care of all the widows, taking care of all the orphans, is you are the best person.

That there are many people who are unarmed, people who are shelterless and you have to be the shelter for them, and for war, Bhima could have been a better, might have been a better commander, better king, but for peace, for restoration, Yudhishthaya was the best person. So he’s telling, don’t let your past guilt about whatever you did stop you from doing the right thing now. He says now, now it is not only your dharma as a king, but it is also what Krishna wants you to do. So just because in the past you might have been in the wrong place, does not mean you have to stay in the wrong place now. So he is not arguing with you this year whether in the past he was in the wrong place, because that argument is not going to work for Yudhishthir.

That an argument can be made that even the war was a virtuous war, and it was dharma and bhakti, but even granting that it was not Dharma. He says right now, what is the Dharma? He says, it is for you to take the responsibility of the king, to restore the kingdom to its glory, to bring peace and prosperity among the citizens, to set all of them on the path to spiritual growth. For all this, you are the right person, and this is the argument that Udishta accepts, and then after that, Udishta asked Vishma many questions. It’s and about how to room.

Raja Dharma is a discussion in the Shanti Parva and Namushasana Parva. Elaborate discussion. In fact, those that discussion is actually bigger than the entire Mahabharata itself. It’s a huge So the thing is here, what has happened is, Bhishma succeeds in consoling the dish, and that So this is the All this is the implication, and implicit in that is a takeaway for us. What is the takeaway?

Two main things I will say that. As devotees we try as much as possible to be in quadrant four. A is as much as possible is our top priority, or top preference we can say. That means we try to do the materially right thing also, or the morally right thing also, not just the spiritually right thing. That for us, we want to do we want to serve Krishna, we want to serve Krishna in a way that is also materially morally right.

We need good intelligence. Now, basically good intention is not the substitute for good intelligence. They are not the same thing. We all need good judgment in what we do. So a, there is no good intelligent, there’s good intention.

That does not mean that we will be protected. Yeah, we will be protected eventually by Krishna, but we will face consequences of the material itself. So once I was in Chicago Airport, 1 day I landed at the airport a friend and one day what he called me, and the day what he was going through some very difficult phase. You know, his child had been diagnosed with cancer. And I was talking on phone trying to console him, and then I got off the airport.

The wheelchair assistant took me along, and the devotee came to pick me up. And I said, I’m talking on phone, and I hung up my devotee, and then went along. When we got into the car, I asked the devotee, can I have my laptop? He says, what laptop? So what had happened was I had I had the laptop bag with me, and when the devotee came, I got up.

I put the laptop bag right in front of me. I put the right laptop right next to the devotee. But the there was a was suitcase which I was carrying. So that devotee picked up the suitcase, but he did not the suitcase was given by the wheelchair assistant to him. But I didn’t I kept the laptop bag right in front of him, but I was busy talking on phone.

I didn’t initially point to him. This laptop is here. And what happened was he forgot. We rushed back, and the laptop bag had disappeared. And that day, normally I keep my passport always in my pocket, but somehow that day I had kept my while talking with the devotee on phone, I kept my passport right in the bag.

And so now to be traveling in a foreign country without laptop is a big loss, but without a passport is a disaster completely. So I was feeling you know, I was feeling angry with myself, I was feeling angry with that devotee, I was feeling angry with everyone. I was thinking I was trying to serve this devotee. I was extending myself. I was extending myself.

I was talking with this devotee who was in great distress, trying to calm and console that devotee. And why did this have to happen to me? Now fortunately, I thought, you know, I do have to cancel all my America tour because I cannot go from one city to another without a passport. We’re thinking, should should I even go by car? But then you’re, arranging for a car and driving from one city to another city.

It’s all very complicated. So fortunately for me so, actually, I was in Chicago. Adhanath Nhanag also in Chicago. So he came to know my passport and told me what happened. He said that, you know, whenever you travel, keep your passport in a bag around your waist.

Don’t let go of that bag ever. He says, you know, if you whatever be the reason, I told Maharaj, I says, Maharaj, then whatever the reason, said you should not do this. And and fortunately, we have devotees in somewhat influential places, so and getting a new passport takes a long time, but some devotees, he found some contacts. We wrote to the Chicago embassy, and he wrote the document. It was three four days, three days in Chicago.

By the time I was supposed to leave just a few hours before that I got the new passport. So, by Krishna’s mercy the problem was solved, but the problem was still there. So my point is that as devotees, we can’t expect or insist that Krishna will protect us if we our intentions will be right. But good intention is not a substitute for good judgment. We have to use proper intelligence also in making decisions, otherwise there will be consequences.

So best is to be in the quadrant four, where we try to do the right thing, and we try to use the right we we try we you try to have a mood of service to Krishna, but also do the right thing. But if not, then the second point would be, don’t never don’t lose hope. It is not that because we make a long wrong decision, Krishna is going to abandon us and reject us and do us. No. Sometimes even the best of us may make errors in judgment.

After all we are finite beings. We are fallible beings, and no mistake should be considered fatal. That don’t think that some mistake, because of this mistake, I’m permanently ruined. Don’t let if we think my guilt is so great that I’m permanently doomed, And because of doing some having done something bad, we stop doing anything good right now, and that is only going to make things worse. So don’t lose hope means that don’t let past mistake discourage us so much, with so much discouragement that we end up making a present mistake.

The present mistake may be present negligence. So don’t let this happen. No matter how many mistakes you have made, still Krishna can bring some good out of it. This point, or how Krishna can bring good out of our mistakes, I will discuss more in today evenings class. But this is what Bhishma is assuring you this that Krishna still has a plan, and you be a part of his plan.

So, I will summarize what I discussed today. Today we discussed about the broad theme of how Bhishma guides, and that was the context, but our theme was broadly decision making. How do we decide what is right and wrong? How do we move forward in our life based on the decision making? So, I talked about three main points.

I took the framework of CHIT context implication and take away. So, the context was that here the is in agony, I talk about adversity, adversity atrocity and agony bad things happening to us is adversity that is itself bad enough, bad things being done to us that is far worse its atrocity, and a bad thing that we need to do. We just have no option, we just have to do that bad thing. That itself is agony, and Yudhishthir is in this situation. He he feels that I did something terrible when I fought a war, and because of that, he’s thinking that I will not fight.

So the implication of this as the Mahabharata described is that life is terribly complex, And we need to do dharma in the sense of the morally of Krishna right thing to do, and bhakti is our heart needs to be in the right right place. We want to be serving Krishna. So now it’s best to be in the fourth quadrant, but sometimes life can be so messy that even if our heart in the right place, we may do something wrong. Now here, there’ll be spiritual good will result, but at a material level some bad might result about this. Now, in dharma is there, but no bhakti material good might result, but they will not spiritual good won’t come that spiritual bad.

Here really what if there is no dharma and no bhakti, then what will happen there is materially and spiritually both will be bad. Best means here really materially and spiritually both will be good. So we discussed how, you Bhishma himself lived most of his life in this quadrant, and yet he is assuring that when he is saying I am a pure devotee he is not bragging over there. But he is saying that Yudhishta even if you think that in the war you are in this decision this quadrant. Now, what is the right thing for you to do?

You need to fight. You need to actually take up the kingdom and restore the kingdom. That is what Krishna wants to do, you to do that is bhakti, and that is what the responsibility right thing to do is for you. And the takeaway for us is that no that good intention is no substitute for good judgment, Good intention is to compliment it with good intelligence both are required, otherwise there will be material consequences for us. So, best is that we try to stay in stay in quadrant four as much as possible, but if we can’t then do never lose hope.

We should not become hopeless that no mistake is fatal that our past mistake should not be our make us so discourage that that leads us to a present mistake, that even through our past mistakes Krishna’s plan can work, and Krishna can take us to a better place. Thank you very much. Rene Krishna. Any questions or comments? Yeah.

Thank you. So, firstly, about Indeshya itself, I would like to clarify a little bit. See broadly the sacred texts can be approached at four different levels. One is the literal level, this is where this is what happened at entertaining story enjoy the story. So, at a kids tale popular retellings, movies there at that level.

And the second is the ethical level, this is where we consider what is right, what is wrong, we deliberate on the ethics of the situation. Then the third is the allegorical level. Now, not everything is an allegory, but Prabhupada sometimes says that, never be discouraged if you are practicing bhakti, because you have handed over the reins of your chariot to Krishna, and Krishna will take care. So allegorical, the scripture itself is not a allegory, but some aspects of scripture can be understood at allegorical level, and then there is the devotional level. So for example, in the Bhagavad Gita itself, Prabhupada sometimes says Arjuna’s illusion is Krishna’s arrangement so that the Bhagavad can be spoken.

So Prabhupada is speaking at a devotional level, but then Prabhupada also says, see Arjuna is a thoughtful person. Arjuna is thinking about the consequences of his actions before deciding, and this thoughtfulness shows that Arjuna is ready to receive the Bhagavad Gita, But Prabhupada is talking at an ethical level. This is in the first chapter. And the second chapter immediately Prabhupada seems to change mood, and he says, Arjuna is in tears. Tears are sign of ignorance and attachment in the skin disease, and everybody suffering from such ignorance attachment in the skin disease, and Krishna is speaking the Bhagavata to remove such universal ignorance attachment in skin disease.

So is Arjuna thoughtful or is Arjuna ignorant? So that’s that’s why when we talk at the ethical level, our focus, especially when you’re talking about sacred characters, or any exalted characters, the focus is not on who is right, or more importantly who is wrong. Our focus is more on what is right. It is we are not in a position here to judge these characters and say that they are wrong. Yes, you can say at the level of Leela, everything is a plan of the Lord, and everybody is like a puppet in the Lord’s hands.

But if you focus only on the devotional level, then there’s nothing for us to learn. And in this situation this kind of action is good, this kind of action is bad. So, Prabhupada himself does not always comment on the devotional level, although Prabhupada doesn’t ensure that we do not forget the devotional level that is all the nila of the Lord. But the same time Prabhupada also says this character did like this is not good, this is good. So, there are multiple levels at which we approach scripture.

So, that is the first point of the that when we are saying the additional actions or bhisma’s actions at the ethical level were questionable, that does not mean that at a devotion level also that they are whatever they are doing is a part of the lord’s plan. Both can be true at the same time Now, having said that now is it that we are not of never a part of the lord’s plan No. That doesn’t happen. And we will always be a part of the Lord’s plan. But we may be cooperating with the Lord’s plan, or we may be obstruct not obstructing.

We may be we may be delaying the Lord’s plan. So this is so even if somebody is in quadrant three or quadrant four, when there are nothing to do with the Lord, it is not when Krishna abandons anyone anytime. So we are certainly not at the level of the dish chair. We are not done that level of ethical deliberation also. Based on which we think that, oh, I did something wrong and therefore I am doomed because of this.

See what happens? This is a important concept. Let me see how much I can explain this quickly. In the Vedic sense, then this conception of artha. Artha is value, and there could be many artha’s.

Our parents are arth, talent is arth, wealth is arth, arth, but when any arth is made into a param arth, param arth means it is made into the supreme arth. When any artha is made into the paramartha that means to an artha. So an artha does not literally mean no value. An artha it can mean that also, but an artha means that when something of lesser value is made of supreme value. So for example if money is made into paramartha, then that leads to the anartha of greed.

That the male female attraction is a natural principle in this world. It is through that principle that, the human race continues. But when that attraction becomes the sole basis for all decision making, when Tartha becomes the Paramartha, then that leads to an earth of lust, and the lust can be destructive. So similarly, ethical deliberation is very important, but when ethical deliberation becomes the supreme, that when I want to do the right thing, I pride myself on my ability to do the right thing, and then that become the supreme, then sometimes what happens is, our adherence to ethics can become more important than even our devotion to God. So then that can lead to an earth.

For Yudhishthira, the Artha that has become the Paramartha is his ethical rightness, or righteousness you could say. That he always wants to do the right thing, and that’s important, but if that becomes a paramartha, then that can also take one away from Krishna. So ideally speaking, Artha and, all that morality. So we could say Paramartha is ultimately bhakti and Krishna. It is bhakti that will take us to Krishna, Now dharma is an artha.

So dharma should not be made more important than, bhakti. But the same time, that is not dharma is unimportant. Dharma is an artha. But dharma itself does not lead to Krishna. Dharma when used in the service of Krishna will in a mood of bhakti will take us to Krishna.

So have I confused or have I made this clear? Okay. Thank you. So any other comments or questions? Of course, see what I am saying is two different things over here.

Yeah, like I took that, I had saw had the pendulum over here that we don’t, we don’t neglect dharma for bhakti, nor do neglect bhakti for dharma. Now in extreme situations, if you have to choose between the two, we need to choose bhakti. Like the gopis when Krishna called them, the for a woman to leave her family and go away to be with an with a man who is not a relative at night, that is not right, but because it is Krishna calling, the gopis did that. That is sarva dharmaan parite jama me kam sharva namraj. So in extreme situation, dharma can be given up for bhakti, but Krishna takes care that actually they don’t give dharma.

What Krishna does is that he arranges as if there are that the shadow gopis are there, like chaya gopis are there, and the family members think that they didn’t the gopis didn’t go only. So in that way Krishna protects them. So I am talking only of extreme situations, but in general as devotees, we should have dharma and bhakti going together as much as possible. Okay. Not in this book.

I have another book called Relishing Bhagavad Gita. In that I talk about it. See, Arjuna’s question is, Arjuna is overwhelmed. Arjuna has suffered a lot previously, but never has he got overwhelmed like this. You know, even when his wife was being dishonored, he’s angry, but he was not overwhelmed.

Even when they lost the entire funeral, it’s not overwhelmed. Why? Because that’s a sign of a responsible person. Bad things happen that’s bad, but when I had to do a bad thing, I would rather die than do something. That’s what life puts us in.

So agony is very, very difficult. See sometimes in India, with respect to the Bhagavad Gita, they say Gita sa, summary of Gita. Whatever happened was good, whatever is happening is good, whatever will happen is also good. They They They They They This is summary of the Gita. There’s no words in the Gita which actually says this directly, and more importantly, that is not the emphasis of the Gita.

The Gita’s emphasis is not what is happening to you. It is what you are doing. Arjuna’s question is, what is the right thing for me to put? What is the right thing for me to do? So in that sense, Arjuna’s whole pay is because he feels that he is put in a situation where he has to do a bad thing, and he doesn’t want to.

Yeah. Definitely. Will you be there for today evening’s class? Sorry. Will you be there for today evening’s class?

Sorry. Will you be there for today evening’s class? So I’m talking more about this. You know, when should suffering that happens be accepted, like, as past karma? Or when should be suffering suffering be embraced or now we may do something to call suffering to others.

When do you do that? So yes, sometimes if it’s going to lead to a greater good, then that is required, and that can see the part of bhakti. But then we have to do it as carefully as possible. Like, sometimes the truth is bitter. We have to speak the bitter truth, because otherwise the person will stay in ignorance and illusion.

But just because the truth is bitter does not mean that the truth has to be spoken bitterly. That time also we can try to speak as sensitively as possible. So, sometimes pain may have to be caused to others, but we should not make causing pain into a virtue, Sometimes out of necessity pain may have to be caused to others, but we should not make causing pain as a worth trying of our virtue. Okay? Thank you very much.