16.9-24 Demoniac direction of modern society Gita Study Pune 2013

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Hare Krishna, so continue with the 16th chapter. So 16.7 what was we discussed yesterday and 8 also we discussed partially. So yesterday I was talking about advertisements.

So they are all part of the satyam te suvidyate. So when there is basically an excessive rejection of scripture and living according to one's own ideas, then there is no foundation to what one is doing. So na satyam te suvidyate asatyam apni sumi jagat ahur adishvara vapraspara sambhutam ki manyat kama hai tukam.

There is ultimately nothing but lust as the ultimate motivation for what people are doing. Now Krishna will draw back and he will tell what are the consequences of such a world view. So first he tells the atheistic world view.

So basically what 16.8 tells us is, in a sense it is logical, atheism leads to materialism. So jagat ahur adishvaram is atheism. Ki manyat kama hai tukam is materialism.

Actually it is not just materialism, it is more precisely what is called as hedonism. Materialism means material things are only valuable. Hedonism means that material things are the only things that are valuable.

That there is nothing beyond material enjoyment and for getting material enjoyment one should be ready to do anything and everything. Nothing is objectionable. That is the idea that comes up, that is hedonism.

So ki manyat kama hai tukam means what else is there apart from sense enjoyment in life? What else is there apart from fulfilment of lusty desires? So now Krishna will draw back and after this he will explain what are the consequences of such a world view. Shayaya jagato hitaha. So etam drishtim avashtabhyah.

When a person accepts such a view, then the result of that is nashtatmano. As a person is nashtatmano, the soul is lost. And then alvabuddhaya, as a person has very little intelligence.

Prabhavanti ugra karmana. Such a world view leads to ugra karma, to activities that are harmful to oneself and harmful to others. Shayaya jagato hitaha.

Such people are actually bent on the destruction of the whole world. At least what they did is ahitaha, it is unbeneficial. At worst it is shayaya.

So it is detrimental at best and destructive at worst. So no way is it beneficial. Shayaya jagato hitaha.

You know, in many ways science and technology gives the illusion that things have become better, things have become easier, things have become much more comfortable. And to some extent they are true, as far as comforts go. But there are many ways in which life has become much more difficult.

Because there is comfort on one side, but there are necessities on another side. Necessities are far more important. Now we discussed this in our technology seminar, how most of the science and technology, or rather technological development, it provides us luxuries, but it often takes away our necessities.

So how does that happen? Ugra karmana, that's what we are discussing. Can anyone give examples of how technology provides us luxuries but takes away our necessities? Yes. Yes.

So a person has, in a slum has television but does not have drinking water and does not have three times meals properly to eat. So provides luxuries but takes away necessities. Now of course, this example can be countered by the argument that, you know, it's people who are so foolish.

It's not technology that is making them so foolish. You know, if they are considering TV to be more important than water and food, that is their problem, that is not technology's problem. But are there some ways in which technology forces people to lose their necessities, even against their will? With respect to the evils of technology, there are three different evils which we can talk about.

One is how technology makes it easier for people to misuse their free will. So ultimately people are themselves responsible. But technology makes it easier for people to misuse their free will.

The second example of technology is that technology makes the, lays waste to the natural resources itself. So then life becomes difficult for everyone. Irrespective of whether people use their free will properly or not, when the natural resources are laid waste, then it creates sufferings for everyone.

And thirdly, technology has effects on nature that are irreversible. Now the difference between the first, second and third is that, okay, let's take an example of this to illustrate this point. So, makes it easier for people to misuse their free will.

So what are examples for this? We will give the example, just now a poverty stricken person, slum dweller with TV but no food. Anything else? Yeah, okay, yes. So through the internet people can pollute their mind so easily.

Then any other example? So actually, internet, TV, movies, all these. So degradation is just a fingertip away. So degradation is always possible for people, but it becomes more easily available, then it's much more difficult for people to resist.

In America, there is a whole debate of whether guns should be allowed for general citizens or not. So in America, the rule is that if people want, they can get a license and they can have their own guns. And this has led to several shootouts.

A few months ago, there was a terrible shootout where one boy went into a school and in that school, he just went and started shooting children over there. You know, five year old, six year old, seven year old children. For no fault of them, they were killed.

And of course, some of the teachers heroically tried to resist. Some of the teachers, you know, they took the children. This boy with a gun and it was not just an ordinary gun.

It was like a, he had three, four machine guns with him. And he just went into a class. So one teacher actually took all the children and hid all the children in the cupboard.

It's almost like 20 children were stuffed inside the cupboard. And somehow they survived. So many children were killed at that time.

So that has re-triggered the gun debate. So their idea is that there are criminals who have guns. And if law-abiding people don't have guns, then the criminals will threaten them and may murder them or plunder them.

So therefore, they think if you, the thieves have guns and you don't have guns, what will happen to you? So that is their rhetoric. And they say that everybody should have guns so that they can defend themselves. But then when people have guns, what is the result? When impulses come up, then with a gun a person can do anything and everything.

So all of us have lower impulses. But when it is made easy to act on them, then disaster can result from it. So in the Vedic culture, everybody would have something for self-defense.

You know, people would have knives and people would have some sticks and maybe some swords or something like that. But generally the main responsibility of defending would be for the Kshatriyas. So having this kind of sophisticated weapons with common people, it is very dangerous.

So this boy, you know, his mother also had her own guns and she had illegal guns. So what this boy did was, first he shot his own mother. And then he went and his mother was separated from her father.

So then he went and shot everybody else. And then at the end, when his whole stockpile was getting exhausted, he shot himself. So, you know, it is just insanity and this has happened many times in the past.

So they still have this very intense debate. It is highly politicalized and it is politicalized because there is a lot of economics in it. You know, the gun manufacturers, their whole industry will shut down if people don't have guns.

So they have this argument that guns don't kill, people kill. So it is true. When you put it like that, it seems very emotionally reventing.

Yes, guns don't kill, people do. But people kill when they have guns, isn't it? It will be much more difficult for them to kill if they don't have guns. So certainly there are no easy answers to this.

If people feel insecure, the government should be strengthened and stabilized, so the police forces, better staff, better equipped, so that they can provide more security. But converting the whole society into armed people is not really a solution. So the point which I am making is technology makes it much easier for people to misuse their free will.

And the second point is technology lays waste to natural resources. That means those natural resources which could have been used for human well-being are instead used up in technology. So this can have various meanings.

For example, we can have, or rather, not lays waste, technology uses up natural resources. For example, we have so many factories and industries, which are usually made using, so much land is deforested for that purposes. So that land which could have been used for, say, growing grains for people, that land is used for industries and factories.

Now industries and factories may also provide some things, but those things are not as essential as food, as grains. So this is just one example. Now the next point is, so Prabhupada would say that, can you eat nuts and bolts? So a more sophisticated way of putting is, you cannot eat your technology at the dining table.

At the dining table, we need some food. So land used for industries instead of agriculture. And the last is the most insidious.

The last which is the most insidious is that, that technology, this third point we are discussing, takes away necessities for many while giving luxuries for few. So for example, I'll give three examples of this. First is, say now there are automobiles.

Automobiles, when they are used, they offer comfort and speed for a few, but they cause air pollution for all. Even if we have the best technology in the world, speed for a few, but air pollution for all. So what this implies is that, even with a highly prosperous society, and cheap availability of technology, still how many people in the world can have technology per se? Say a car.

Not many, maybe 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%. Certainly not more than that. But then, when people drive cars, then how many people have to suffer the effect of pollution? Everywhere.

So now here the point is not to make technology a whipping boy. You know whipping boy is what? Whipping boy is, in the past when a king or a general, that person would be angry, so that person would have a boy. So he would take out all his anger on that person, just beat him up for everything.

So nowadays people don't have whipping boys, they have punching bags. You've seen punching bags? You know people keep their punching bags, they try to beat out all their frustration in that. So our goal here is not to say that technology is a whipping boy, that technology is the source of everything bad.

No, but many people are so enamored by technology, that they don't realize its harmful consequences also. So, similarly we see that the first world countries, they have industrialized so much, and now we have global warming, and we have climate change, which is affecting the whole globe. So the pollution is primarily emerging from the developed countries, but when that is affecting their climate, that effect is there for everyone.

So in this way, Prabhavanti Ugra Karmaana, there is Ugra Karma that is there. So climate change, caused by first world, what does first world refer to? Sorry? The developed countries, especially first world refers to USA and the European Union. So the second world refers to the Soviet countries, Russia, China.

And third world refers to the developing countries. So it's a very Eurocentric view of looking at the world, that we are the first world. But somehow that nomenclature has been adopted by everyone.

So actually much of history is very Eurocentric, they call that the discovery of India, or discovery of America. So Columbus discovered America, or Vasco da Gama discovered India. Well, it was you who discovered it, we were living there for many generations, isn't it? So it is not that people were not existing there.

So the whole history is very Eurocentric. But the point here is, Eurocentric means centered around Europe. But still, the point is that, even if you adopt that nomenclature for convention sake, the point is that, everybody gets affected with the harmful effects of technology.

So, So now after describing this, Krishna will go further and start describing the activities further. He described the qualities, now he starts describing how do they act. So, So, So, Instead of taking shelter of Narayana, they are taking ashray of kama.

They think that kama will solve all problems. But the kind of kama they take shelter of is also, Dushpuram. Dushpuram means, that which will never be satisfied.

So, now Krishna has earlier talked about kama, in both ways. You see in the third chapter, he talked about, So, So, in 3.39 he talks about how, kama burns like fire, and it is insatiable. But then, after talking about kama, in this term in 3.39, he also says, in 7.10 that, that, that the, male-female attraction, that is not contrary to the principles of religion, Krishna says, I am that.

But here, the demoniac, they take shelter of lust, that is Dushpuram. So, there is not dharma aviruddha bhuteshu, there is, actually there is, it is beyond dharma, it is against dharma. So, when they take that, naturally, lust is followed by dambha and mana.

One becomes very arrogant, based on one's own ideas of how one can enjoy. And, they accept the temporary to be eternal. In most of the movies, they will end it, and they live happily forever.

So, you know, nobody lives happily, and nobody lives forever. In this world, So, actually, this happily forever, is exactly the opposite of Isn't it, you know? Happily is the opposite of and forever is the opposite of So, So, So, what happens is, So, people accept the temporary to be eternal. So, one boy asked me this question, you know, in Vedic tradition, there is this whole idea that sometimes, the wives do some rituals, by which they can have the same husband for seven lives.

And there is this whole idea. So, there is one, which is the purely mundane idea. You know, people have, I did a, I am currently writing a book on reincarnation.

We are doing this documentary on reincarnation. So, reincarnation is quite popular, as a concept, among people. And it's popular in Bollywood also.

But, you know, the whole tendency of the materialistic mind is to sensualize and romanticize everything. So, they have so many movies on reincarnation and the importance is not the reincarnation, but it is the romance that continues from one life to another. So, you know, the same boy and girl, somehow their love is frustrated.

So, Shakespeare wrote Romeo and Juliet. So, so many people, so, Romeo and Juliet ends in a tragedy. You know, Juliet kills, they both die.

So, so many people have written the reincarnation of Romeo and Juliet, where they unite and are successful. So, you know, this person asked me, what is the concept of a soulmate? So, they have the concept of soulmate, you know. So, actually, that means you have some partner, who is not a partner at the level of the body, he is a partner at the level of the soul.

So, he said that, you know, you continue on that relationship, life after life. So, I said, Bhagwati, that it is just to focus on the soul, not the mate. So, so the whole material idea is that, everything that is spiritual, they will, they will sensualize and romanticize everything.

So, even the, the whole concept of reincarnation is to make us recognize how the relationships of this world are temporary and therefore we should focus on eternal relationship. But, moha grihitva asad grahan. They try to hold on to the temporary as if it is eternal.

Pravartante asuchivrataha. Asuchivrataha is unclean vows. So, Valdevidya Bhushan explains that this refers to left hand tantra.

We discussed about tantra, you remember? So, tantra is the whole idea of you can approach spirit through matter. So, left hand tantra involves a lot of, it basically involves sexual activity as if it is spiritual. So, asuchivrataha.

So, they take vratas which are very unclean. They are unclean and they are contaminating. So, you know, a few years ago, our temple had this Guinness record for this painting competition.

So, at that time, we were exploring you know, what are the kind of things for which people get Guinness records. So, there was one Guinness record. So, not all Guinness record makes headlines.

They have to see which Guinness records are newsworthy also. So, one of the Guinness record which was newsworthy in terms of today's newsworthiness was of a Thailand couple who kissed each other for 47 hours. Now, you know, actually speaking, even if there is some pleasure in kissing, the mouth becomes filled with saliva and to put the lips together for 47 hours, there is no pleasure at all.

It is physically dirty. But it is asuchivrataha. So, these are the kind of things that are glorified and glamorized in today's society.

So, asuchivrataha and pravartante. So, they do all sorts of unclean things and they think that is glorious. But it is so unclean, it contaminates them, it contaminates others.

So, the whole modern society in one sense, there should not be any stigmatization of anyone. Now, for example, nowadays, there is, in many ways, there is more sensitive language. You know, for example, in Hindi, if somebody is mentally retarded, you may say that he is mad.

That is very harsh language. So, it is good to speak it more sensitively. You can say he is mentally challenged or he is a little slow and he doesn't think so fast.

These are polite ways of saying things. So, when the intention is to not hurt others, then polite language is called as euphemism. It is good.

But, when the intention is to hide an ugly truth, then that is not good. So, asuchivrataha means, you know, the dirty, the things which are immoral, which are sinful, which are dirty, they are concealed in such a way that people don't come to know about it. So, for example, now, those women who sell their bodies for sex, they are normally called as prostitutes.

But, the politically correct way of referring to them is not prostitutes. It is, they are called as professional sex workers. As if that is a profession.

And they say, you know, even the word sex sounds very bad. So, now the current word that is used is, they are escorts. You know, escort is such a harmless word.

But, that is the word that is used. So, when a person checks in in a hotel, okay, do you want an AC room? Do you want this? Do you want an escort? It is just one option to be ticked. So, it is so, so what has happened over here is, so, so, what has happened is, this is, this is the unclean things are covered up to make it appear as if it is something very ordinary.

So, Ashuchi Vrataha. So, when there is, when there is contamination and that is covered and that is made to sound as if it is politically correct, then what happens? People's values get distorted. People's values get distorted.

So, Ashuchi Vrataha and after that Krishna will describe, he will describe what are the Ashuchi Vrataha, he will describe the next verse. Chintam parimeyam cham, pralayantam upasthitaha, kamopabhog parama, etavaditi nishchitaha, asha pashushatair parama, pashushatair parama, asha pashushatair parama, asha pashushatair parama, asha pashushatair parama, asha pashushatair parama, asha pashushatair parama, asha pashushatair parama, asha pashushatair parama, pashushatair sense gratification, parama, it is the supreme goal of life. Ropa translates it as sense gratification is the prime necessity of life.

Means you can give up anything else but you cannot give up sense gratification. Kamopabhog parama, etavaditi nishchitaha, and the result of that is Chintam parimeyam cham, pralayantam upasthitaha, any form of material enjoyment that we want, that is external to us. And because it's external to us, it is never in our control.

And because it is not in our control, so it causes us anxiety. It causes us anxiety inevitably. Because we can't control it, what is outside us we can't control.

Therefore to the extent we are desiring external things, to that extent there will be anxiety. And if people are desiring external things till the end of their lives, then till the end of their lives they will have anxiety. So, Chintam parimeyam cha, pralayantam upasthitaha.

So here, when Krishna is talking about Kamopabhog parama. So what is the nature of Kamopabhog parama? What is its nature because of which it leads to anxiety? Why does it lead to Chintam parimeyam cha? So first is often it is not attainable. The mind has so many desires that nobody can possibly fulfill all the desires.

Even if somebody attains it, it is not retainable. If I attain it, I can't keep it forever. Because everything material is temporary.

And even if I have it, after sometime it is not enjoyable. So, either it is not attainable, it is not retainable or it is not enjoyable. That means, see the nature of the mind is that the mind will always want things which we don't have.

So, a person is attracted to some other person and there are so many beautiful good looking people in the world, the mind will always keep hankering, hankering, hankering. And most of the lusty desires that come in the mind, they are not attainable. Even if they are attained, nothing is retainable.

No relationship is going to be permanent. And even if the relationship is permanent, the good looks that attract a person to somebody else, those good looks are not going to stay for very long. So, that is not retainable.

So, and beyond that, actually, it is not even enjoyable after sometime. Because, there are several articles published by scientific journals which talk about how romance has a bench life of about 10 months. What do they mean by that? Romance has a bench life of 10 months.

They say that, actually, some people, when they are attracted to each other, you know, in the language of Bollywood, they say their chemistry matches. But the chemistry match is based on secretion of chemicals. And those chemicals which are secreted when people feel excited when they are around somebody else, that rush of chemicals doesn't last for more than 10 months.

And after that, only people can find something beyond the physical attraction, beyond the chemical stimulation, only then the relationship will continue. Otherwise, it doesn't continue. So, either most of the pleasures that we desire are not attainable, that causes anxiety.

Or if they are attainable, then they are not retainable. We are going to lose them. That causes anxiety.

And even if we retain them, then they are not enjoyable. Because after sometime, we lose the charm. That's why they also cause anxiety.

So, the classic example of this is, Dhritarashtra and Duryodhana's desire to attain the kingdom. So, for a long time, it was not attainable for them. Why? Because, first it was Pandu, and then it went to Pandu's sons.

And then, even after they got it, by various conspiracies, Duryodhana knew that, okay, after 13 years, the Pandavas will come back again. So, he was always fearful, I will not be able to retain it. And then, even when, okay, at least he had it for 13 years, but still he was thinking, you know, what are the Pandavas doing in the forest? Are they miserable in the forest? I have to make them miserable.

So, then he went out, and he tried to do a conspiracy over there, trying to flaunt his wealth, and the Gandharvas humiliated him. So, he was so negatively centered, that what he had, it was not enjoyable for him, even when he had it. So, that's what Vidura tells, Dhritarashtra in the Mahabharata, when was this kingdom a source of happiness for you? When you didn't have it, you were craving for it.

When you had it, then, you are worrying when you will lose it, and now that you have lost it, you are lamenting for it. So, when did it actually give you happiness? So, actually material enjoyment leads to chinta, and if you hold on to the desires, till the end of life, then the chinta will be till pralayantam upashrita. Yes.

Can you speak loudly? Hare Krishna. Puruji, you were telling that the secretion of the chemicals in a romance life, in which bench life is only 10 months, it does not remain as it is, what it was in the day one. So, that's why emotions goes down.

So, isn't it mechanistic explanation of the human emotions? Like, it may have to happen that it is because of familiar faces, the emotions are not again coming up and all those things, but is it, the emphasis is on secretion of chemicals only or on the emotion? So, the idea that romance is a bench life of say 10 months, isn't that a mechanistic explanation of emotions? Yes, many emotions have a mechanistic explanation, but all emotions don't have mechanistic explanations. See, the physical sensations that we have, for example, say somebody tickles us and we laugh, now that is purely a mechanical phenomenon. Certain parts of the body are sensitive to tickling, and when there is tickling, there is laughter.

So, now there is a physical cause and there is a physical effect. Does tickling touch our heart? But is the laughter of tickling not genuine? Well, when we are laughing, we are laughing. Isn't it? So, that is the emotion, but that is the emotion which is peripheral to our real person.

So, some emotions are just physical stimulation which lead to physical results. But there are deeper emotions which touch our heart. So, ultimately the emotions that are based on our relationship with Krishna, they are far deeper.

So, it is like there are tamasic, rajasic, sattvic and there are transcendental emotions. So, now the lower the emotions, actually they are just physical sensations. And the higher the emotions, then they are more mental, then they are spiritual, then they are devotional.

So, certain emotions are definitely physical. So, what do we mean by emotions are physical? The consciousness ultimately is coming from the soul itself. When a person is dead, you tickle him no matter how much he is not going to laugh.

So, the consciousness of the person has to be present, that comes from the soul only. But what is stimulating the consciousness right now, it can be just a purely physical phenomenon where there is no investment of emotions over there directly. So, now is there no investment of emotions in romance? There is definitely investment of emotions.

But that investment of emotions is based entirely on physical sensations. And when those physical sensations end, those emotions end. So, that doesn't mean all the relationships have to end.

As I said, they have to find a deeper purpose to come together. Then the relationship will become more lasting. Is it clear? So, our emotions, they can arise from various sources.

Somebody can hear some very heart-rending music and that may bring tears in the eyes. We may see some great suffering happening somewhere, some natural calamity, that may bring tears in the eyes. We may hear some joke and we may laugh.

And that may also bring some emotions, positive emotions. So, our emotions can come from various sources. But the point is, are these emotions connected with our soul? Are these emotions having a positive effect on us? Are they touching our core? Are they lasting emotions? So, what we are talking about is, the infatuation that is there, which people call as love, but which is usually lust, is basically a biological phenomena, biochemical phenomena.

So, now Krishna, so, he is describing, and when there is it leads to So, a person becomes bound by hundreds and thousands of desires. So, desires are like a past Krishna is saying. Why does he say that? Because desires bind us.

Although we think it is our desire to enjoy, but the desire often drags us in ways that we don't want, like alcoholic. Alcoholic doesn't want to drink. Although when the desire comes, the alcoholic himself goes for drinking.

So, as a person is sold out to lust and greed. And then naturally, that for the kamabhoga, one cannot, if one wants to enjoy a lot, one cannot enjoy that much, just at the sensual level, just at the moral level. Such a person gives up morality for the sake of enjoyment.

So, here what Krishna is telling is, how materialism will eventually lead to immorality. So, that is the link between, say, here, 16 point, 11, 12 are talking about materialism. Or more specifically, hedonism.

And then the next verse is, 13 to 15 will describe, how this leads to immorality and criminality. So, the connecting point is, So, there is anyaya which is done. There is immorality that is done.

Injustice that is done. What is that injustice? That is described in the next verse. So, So, So, this is describing the mentality of a person who might be a Bollywood don, you know, underworld king.

He says, you know, this much money I have acquired, that much money I will acquire more. This enemy I have removed, that enemy I will remove in the future. And in this way, my money will keep increasing more and more and more.

So, accumulating money, greed, may not seem so dangerous. But, when the greed becomes untrammeled, the person just, the person feels like, other people don't have any value in that. So, if somebody comes in my way, just eliminate that person.

I kill that person, and I will kill that person. So, then he thinks that, so, now in this way, I am able to remove my competitors. I have been able to remove my rivals.

So, then, So, material consciousness, Prabhupada explains in the introduction of Bhagavad Gita, has two characteristics. I am the controller, and I am the enjoyer. So, So, I am the controller, and I am the enjoyer.

So, a person thinks that, I am perfect, I am strong, I am suki, I am happy. And then, not only does he think I am happy, I am aristocratic, I am surrounded by so many relatives. So, what is the idea? I have removed my enemies, and now the people who are my fans, they are all surrounding me.

So, So, these two lines, Who else is there like me? These two lines very vividly illustrate, that this mentality is ultimately, the mentality to become God. You know, Ishwara, Ishwara is itself, the name of the Supreme Lord also. person thinks, I am God, Ishwara, and, Krishna is, no one equal to Him.

In the, 11th canto, in the 11th chapter also, while describing, the glories of Krishna, as manifest in the Vishwaroopa, Arjuna has said, There is no one equal to you, so how can anyone be superior to you? So, that is actually the glory of God. But here, he is thinking, what is he saying that, Who is there equivalent to me? And then, so this is the whole mentality, that the person is having, and Krishna, brings the last twist in the tale, in the last line, This is, the illusion, caused by, ajnana. So, like there is a, in a movie, you see a poor, poverty stricken person, he gets, wins a lottery, and earns money, and becomes very wealthy, and becomes a millionaire, and becomes a billionaire, and then he is enjoying, and suddenly, you find out, he suddenly hears, something, somebody shouting at someone, and he wakes up, and he finds, hey, it was just a dream, I am still a poverty stricken beggar, lying on the street, and I was imagining that, I was such a big person.

So, all that was just an illusion, so, like that, a person thinks that, I am a very big person, I am, but it is also, it is all an illusion, caused by ignorance, and it is all going to end, with death. now, after describing this, we will further describe, now, what is, yes. Prabhuji, my question, regarding, Lashloka, that, person, Hare Krishna, so, thinking, that, whatever I observe, I am the Lord, and because of all, that his, lust is increasing and all, and anger, and he wants to disturb others also, so, all this, so, in sadhakas, neophytes, sadhakas life also, it happens, like, his material desires are increasing, so, and, that's why, he is going to the, another track, can it happen in sadhakas life also, that his material desires may increase, and he may go another track, yes, definitely, that's a possibility, because, when we practice bhakti, Krishna, or rather maya, whichever you want to look at it, we get material results, and we get material results, results at a material level, if we get enamored by that, then we can get distracted by that, so, that's why, it's good for us to be having at least some senior devotees around us, some devotees who are, better than us at what we are doing, in our period of time, once we advance, a little bit, we become a little, we all develop, our own, disciples group, and we love to hear our own vyasa pujas, so, and generally speaking, if we have cultivated some people, and brought them into devotional service, then, they will rarely challenge us, and over a period of time, whoever challenges us, we start feeling, they are just poking their nose into, what is not there, they don't know anything, and then we start sidelining them, we start pushing them aside, and we just have our own, this is what happened precisely in ISKCON's history, and after Srila Prabhupada left, 11 of his disciples were made into gurus, and they were sincere in many ways, but they were also young, they were 25-30 what, and then, they had their, so, those who could not take initiation from Prabhupada, they took initiation from these disciples, and now for them, their guru was like God only, so, whatever the guru told them, it was like, they were immediately ready to do that, lay down their life for them, and they were able to get a lot of things done, through their disciples, now, they had their own God brothers, and, the God brothers had reservations, about the way things were done, so, Pradyumna Prabhu was a, was Prabhupada's scholarly disciple, so, what was happening was, when there was guru puja, for these gurus, at that time, you know, even their God brothers were told, you should offer flowers, and you should offer to bow down, which Prabhupada never did to his God brothers, now, Prabhupada never asked Shridhar Maharaj, or Puri Maharaj to come and offer flowers to him, it's inconceivable, but, they made them do that, so, Pradyumna Prabhu told them, this is not proper, Pradyumna Prabhu had been in touch with Gaudiya Mahadev devotees, and he studied Gaudiya Vaishnavism, so, when he did that, then, these gurus, within the GPC, they made their own board, guru board, and they passed resolution by which, Pradyumna Prabhu was expelled from his cone, and it was almost 25 years later, that the GPC sent an apology letter to Pradyumna Prabhu, saying that, whatever you said was right, and we were wrong, but then, over a period of time, over a period of time, what happened was, that these gurus, they felt that, if they had to get things done, the people who were ready to obey them, were their own disciples, and their God brothers, they always seemed to be getting in their way, you know, you are not doing this properly, this is not proper, this is not proper, so, they started sidelining them, sidelining them, neglecting them, so, actually from 1977 to 1987, 90% of Prabhupada disciples left his cone, 90% of Prabhupada disciples, so, his cone still continued to grow, but it was because of, these gurus having their own disciples, but, eventually, when several of the gurus had problems, for the disciples, the guru is like God, so, they will never even, question anything that they are doing, but when many of the gurus had faults, then there was a big discussion, and then after that GBC passed, that you know, the gurus, they are representing Prabhupada, but they are never equal to Prabhupada, so, in several temples, just that there is Prabhupada deity, there would be the deity of the guru, and everybody was supposed to offer, puja to the guru, so, all that was stopped after that, so, then, now things are much more stable, but it happens, now, it is not that, these devotees, were in any way, malevolent, they just didn't know, the only example of a guru, that they had was Prabhupada, and they thought, if we have to follow Prabhupada, then we have to accept worship like Prabhupada, but they didn't have that adhikar, at that time, so, it can happen, and it has happened, so, of course, now the GBC has formed, a special committee, in which, they are trying to get all Prabhupada disciples back, and now in Mayapur, especially, they have said that, any Prabhupada disciple, if he or she wants to come and live in Mayapur, and, spend their last days in Mayapur, then they will be provided free facility for that, they will be provided a place to stay, and prasadam throughout their lives, so, that they are creating, making ways to make amends for what has been done, and it was not done with any malicious intention, but it just happened at that particular time, so, Ravindra Siruprabhu wrote an article, which, in 1984, which started, which led to a significant change, so, what he said that, the mistake that happened was, we assume that Prabhupada's pure devotion, so, so, when this has happened is, that some devotees, now many of these leaders, at that time, they did behave, sometimes power went to their head, and they did behave in harsh ways, so, it hurt a lot of people, so, when there were problems within ISKCON, so, there was a tendency within some devotees, to blame all the problems on the gurus, you know, because they are not pure enough, because they are not advanced enough, and that is why all the problems within ISKCON are there, so, and to some extent, Rithvikism is like that, you know, the historical grievances that led to Rithvikism are genuine, there were serious problems in ISKCON, but, the way it is expressed is, by rejecting the institution of the guru, that is wrong, so, there was a group of devotees who said that, you know, these gurus are the cause of all problems within ISKCON, so, Ravindra Sarup wrote a very beautiful article, he said that, you know, Prabhupada never played favorites, so, whom did he choose as guru? He says, those who took up the most responsibilities during his time, those who were the most sacrificing, those who were the most committed, he chose them, so, he says, if you want to blame that they were not qualified enough, then the blame should be, why was I not more qualified, you know, why was I not more dedicated, why was I not more committed, Prabhupada would have empowered me also, so, he said, the reform within ISKCON, if it is to happen, it will happen by the reform of our own heart, our own purification, so, over a period of time, so, he writes a very significant statement, he said that, we, means he is talking about, especially the gurus, but in general about ISKCON devotees, we assume that Prabhupada's purity was our qualification, but, Prabhupada's purity should be an inspiration for our own purity, understand, it is not, because Prabhupada has entrusted us to be gurus, that makes us qualified, no, Prabhupada is pure, but Prabhupada's purity is not our qualification, maybe it is our starting qualification, but eventually our qualification will be when we become pure, you know, our spiritual master, so, when we become preachers, when we become devotees, it is our spiritual master's purity and mercy that makes us qualified, but over a period of time, if we are going to sustain ourselves in Krishna Consciousness, sustain others, then we have to ourselves develop purity, so, Prabhupada's purity cannot be a substitute for our own purity, Prabhupada's purity should be an inspiration by which we develop our own purity, so, when we ourselves, when we get strength, when we get success, when we get power, at that time, we have to remember that it is coming from Krishna, and to take that power, and to sustain ourselves in devotional life, we need to also be advanced, if we are not advanced enough, then that power can drag us down in our spiritual life, clear? Yeah.

Yes. This exploitation by some power-hungry people, like we see this, this holocaust, which was done by Nazis, can we understand this truth in this Kama-mashitya, this Purana, in that same light, is this also caused by, or is it only talking about the Nazis per se? The holocaust caused by, say, the Nazis, and they killed so many Jews, so, are they, is it Kama-mashitya? Yes, I will take a, before I explain this, I will explain another angle, which is very sensitive, and we have to be aware of this. You know, there are practically, although the holocaust is a very well-documented event now, there are practically no negative statements by Prabhupada about Hitler.

And many of Prabhupada's statements about Hitler are positive. You know, Prabhupada said that, Prabhupada apparently said that Hitler had nuclear weapons, but because he was such a gentleman that he did not use those weapons. And America used the weapons.

Then Prabhupada also said that, it was actually Hitler was a good man, but the Britishers ruined him by bad publicity, by giving a dog a bad name and hanging him. So now, these sort of statements are very inflammatory, very very inflammatory, because the holocaust is undeniable. It did happen, and there was cruelty, there was barbaric.

So, as I told you earlier that, so there was a scholar, there was a ISKCON devotee, who got fed up with ISKCON, scholar, and he left ISKCON, and he wrote a series of articles about how, he took all the statements of Prabhupada which are politically incorrect, and he made a series of articles and spread them very widely, and through that he created a sort of paranoia that, ISKCON is like a right-wing fanatical organization. So, of course, thankfully we do not have any record of violence, done by any ISKCON devotees. Certainly not the kind that is done by Taliban or anything like that.

So, but still that, point is that, these kind of statements, Prabhupada has quoted them, but if we start, absolutizing those statements, so where do these statements come from, see, Prabhupada never claimed to be omniscient. So, Prabhupada also, his knowledge about material affairs, it came from Prateksha and Hanuman. So, Prabhupada lived in Bengal, and Bengal, at that time, was the throes of the Indian, was at the heart of the Indian Indian struggle.

So, Prabhupada studied the same college as Subhash Chandra Bose, and Subhash Chandra Bose, actually had joined with the Germans. So, you know, Indians are often proud of Subhash Chandra Bose's efforts, how he tried to liberate India, and how somehow he was killed. That is all good, but it is also true that Subhash Chandra Bose had joined hands with Germany, with Hitler.

And India, at that time, actually what happened during the Holocaust, was not known at that time. Later on, when the allied forces smashed into Germany, and then they found the whole arrangement, where there were gas chambers, where people were burned and turned into smoke, practically speaking. So, the extent of the massacre that was done, that was not so widely known.

So, the fact that, now Prabhupada was very appreciative of Subhash Chandra Bose, there is no doubt about that. Prabhupada said that India gained independence not because of Gandhi, but because of Bose's efforts. And historically that is true to some extent.

Because what happened was, it is a long complex history. Basically, Subhash Chandra Bose wanted to have his own army, but the number of Indians who responded to him was few. So then, he did a pact with Hitler, and he said that most of the allied forces army was filled with Indian soldiers.

Soldiers from India. Because what the British government did is, that they just captured all the crops that were there in the country. And they hoarded all the crops, and then they were not selling it only.

So, people were starving. And the only way they could get money at that time, was by enlisting in the army. So, in the Second World War, in the First World War, Gandhi himself said that we can join the World War.

Not Gandhi, but other leaders said we can join. But in the Second World War, the Indian political leadership was stiffly opposed to assisting Britain in the war. Because India assisted in the First World War, and Britain did not give anything.

They just made a rollout act in 1990. In 1990, immediately the Jallianwala Bagh massacre was there. So, the Indian leadership felt betrayed.

And that's why they decided not to support. So, then the Britishers used this sort of means, just plundered all the crops, or hoarded all the crops, and the people had no means, so they joined the army. So, when the confrontation between the German army and the British army took place, and when the British army was defeated, so the German army, so Subhash Chandra Bose made a pact with the people that, with the German that, when Indians are defeated, he said, don't kill the Indians, take them prisoners of war, and then I will communicate with them, and they will join your side in the army.

So, that's what happened. And then, so, now, when all this was happening, it is quite likely that Subhash Chandra Bose also did not have any idea of what all Hitler was doing inside Germany, or Germany, Poland, or wherever he was. So, then after that, when Subhash Chandra Bose died in the air flight, and the Indian national army which had come from Singapore, that area, was defeated.

So, then, during that time, when those army soldiers who had rebelled, who had joined Subhash Chandra Bose's army, they were tried by the British government, and they were sentenced to treason. Treason means acting against the nation. And they were supposed to be hanged.

And when they were supposed to be hanged, at that time, the whole country rose in protest against it. And at one particular time, in 1946, roughly, after the Second World War was over, because all this trying of criminals happens after the war is over. So, at that time, when these Indian national army soldiers were supposed to be hanged, at that time, the whole Indian national army, not the, which was Subhash Chandra Bose, but the British government's army, which was staffed with Indians, that rose against the British government.

And at that time, the British government said, you know, we just can't rule. If the army, if our own army, people whom we are paying become against us, how can we rule? So, historically speaking, there is a complex set of factors which led to the Britishers deciding to leave India. So, Prabhupada says that Subhash Chandra Bose's efforts were primary in that, much more than Gandhi.

So, there is surely some historical basis to that. But the point is, that it's unlikely that even Subhash Chandra Bose knew what all Hitler was doing. So, to speak about Hitler in a positive light, it is, it can be scandalous.

So, that's why, we have to be aware that not all of Acharya's statements are coming from transcendental sources. And that's the way we explain such statements. So, Prabhupada himself, there were so many times when Prabhupada corrected himself.

As an example, you got one particular information, he gave one response. When the information was corrected, he gave another response. So, that's one point.

Second point is, that, with respect to, I say, Hitler killing so many people, yeah, this enemy I killed, that enemy I'll kill. So, that is certainly true. So, he had the idea, whoever is against me, I'll kill them.

So, he had some pent-up wrath against the Jews. And there are some reasons for that, but nothing justifies the kind of brutality that he did. So, the whole idea that he wanted to have his own dominion, his own empire all over Europe and eventually all over the world.

And he felt that the Jews, the gypsies and others were were obstacles in that. So, surely, materialism and atheism leads to leads to this kind of destruction. So, Hitler and Stalin were the two people who killed the maximum number of people.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao Zedong. Mao Zedong was the leader of China, in communism, Red China. So, these three are the people who are the biggest mass murderers in world history.

They killed, and all three of them were atheists. Now, there is no doubt that Mao Zedong and Stalin were atheists. So, but Hitler, sometimes it is said that he was a Christian.

And atheists tried to wash their hands off Hitler by saying, actually it was his Christian feelings that made him angry against the Jews. Actually, Christians and Jews have a long history of animosity because Jesus was born in a Jew family and Jesus never rejected Judaism at all. But eventually, it was the Jews who complained to the Romans, Roman Emperor that actually he is proclaiming a false religion.

So, just like it was the smart Brahmanas who complained to the Muslims that Haridas Thakur is teaching a deviant dharma. He is a Mleccha and he is still chanting and he is making others chant. So, Haridas Thakur was teaching the same religion as the, was a part of the same religion as the smart Brahmanas.

But the smart Brahmanas worked against Haridas Thakur by complaining against the religious people who were rulers who were of a different religion. So, then the Romans, Pontius Pilate and others, they had him executed. So, the Christians don't blame the Romans for the killing, crucifixion of Jesus.

They blame the Jews. So, what Hitler did was, he tapped into the Christian wrath of people. But he himself had no Christian sympathies, basically.

He was driven by Darwin's idea of evolution and he felt, his auto-wire is my camph, I mean camph is my struggle. And it was based on the Darwin's idea of struggle for existence and survival of the fittest. So, but he knew that if the Christian sympathy can be used for the sake of killing, then why not? It can be used.

That's how he used it. And the Catholic Church, for a long time, did not oppose the Holocaust. So, that is one thing that the Christians cooperated with it, to a large extent.

Not all Christians, but the Catholic Church at least did not oppose the Holocaust. Then, of course, Pope John Paul II apologized about it later. But here, the point which I am making is, yes, definitely, these are examples, not only Hitler, but even Stalin and Mao Zedong, they are all examples of Any further questions about this? Mao Zedong, M-A-O-Z-E-D-O-N-G So, it was actually in Mao Zedong's time, that it is the first time in recent history that that cannibalism became widespread.

You know, cannibalism is people eating other human beings. So, what happened during Mao Zedong's reign was, he would, the farmers would make their own crops and then the government had control over all resources. The farmers would go to the crops, but the crops would not belong to the farmers.

The government would take them away. And Mao Zedong wanted to portray to the world that China is flourishing very much. So, all the local officers, they would inflate the production.

So, for example, if a farm has produced, say, 500 say, 500 kg rice. So, they would say that, actually they have produced 2000 kg rice. And then they say, you have produced 2000 kg rice, then, okay, then you can take, the government will send the order, then you can take 400 kg from there for our national granary.

And the people would be left with only 100 kg. And they had produced themselves and still, there was starvation. So, in despair, what happened was, people started killing and eating each other.

So, first thing they did was, the people were so hungry, that first they started eating corpses. As soon as the person would die, then they would pounce and eat him. And then afterward, they started making people into corpses so that they could eat them.

So, it was a very, very dark period. So, of course, because it was not a religious country, so there was no spiritual check for such things also. So, it was a very brutal period, in that particular time.

So, this is, Now, Krishna will describe, Aneka chitta vibhranta, Moha jala samavrata, Prasatta kama bhogeshu, Patanti narakeshu chau, Patanti narakeshu chau, So, aneka chitta vibhranta, So, there are so, the consciousness is vibhranta, it's totally distracted by so many things, I have to do this and do that and do this and get that and enjoy that. Aneka chitta vibhranta, Moha jala samavrata, In this way, person is completely covered with illusion. Prasatta kama bhogeshu, So, because the person is so attached to enjoyment, Patanti narakeshu chau, So, Krishna used the word Ashuchi earlier for Ashuchi vrataha.

Now, he is saying, such a person will fall to the hellish lands. Patanti narakeshu chau, So, when people become bound by material desires, it is so terrible. Because, nowadays there are so many different, Alcoholics Anonymous was now, now there are so many different kinds of Anonymous, there are Gamblers Anonymous, there are TV Addicts Anonymous, and there are Dieters Anonymous, no, there are, what do you call it? What are the people who eat too much called? Gluttons Anonymous, there are so many, there are almost like 300 Anonymous groups, and they are all people addicted to something or the other.

And this is helpless. Prasatta kama bhogeshu, they are attached and then, they create suffering for themselves and suffering for others. Hare Krishna.

Terrorists and all is alright. They are grossly doing so much. Then there are people doing this ragging and such other kind of stuff.

So, what is the, how should we see them, what is the reason, actually internal reason amongst all this? Why they are trying to trouble others? Yeah. So, generally, in college there is this whole, there is a parampara of ragging. You know.

So, I was ragged, so I will rag the next generation. And then like that, they will rag the next generation. So, generally speaking, psychologists have found that those who are abused, if they are not counseled and guided, they will become abusers.

So, for example, if a child has an abusive parent, parent always shouts and beats, then the child, when he grows up, when he becomes a parent, he will become like that. So, that also, because, although that is a bad model, and I myself suffered that model, but still, because that is the only model I know, so I emulate that, firstly. Second is, there is that deep-rooted psychological resentment, which comes out when one gets power.

Similarly, it is found that children who are sexually abused by their parents, generally, parents is not so common, it happens also, but especially by their acquaintances, some cousins, or uncles, or things like that, it's very common nowadays. So, it's very, it's heartbreaking, but it's very common. Abuse of children, sexual abuse also.

So, when this happens, when these children grow up, they also abuse them. So, in general, that's how the material world works, without any higher intervention. Now, whatever others do to me, if I can do it back to them, that's fine, but if I cannot do it back to them, then I will do that to somebody else.

That's how I pay back, that's how the psychology works. So, most of the times, those who rag are not necessarily in colleges, they are not necessarily evil people, but that is the way they have been exposed to college culture, and that's how they expose others. So, it's like, initially they get misled, and then they mislead others.

So, somewhere this has to stop, and generally it stops when the person gets exposed to a higher, better, richer way of life. If that doesn't happen, then that's where the tradition goes on. That means when a person is exposed to evil and injustice and suffering, then, unless that person has some opportunity to heal, that person will pass on that injustice and hurt and suffering to others.

So, now, Krishna will describe after this. So, here he has talked about patanti narakeshu, such people will fall to hellish suffering. Now, he will describe what is the mentality of such people, and he will conclude with this section with this verse.

ātmasambhāvitāstabdhā ātmasambhāvitāstabdhā dhanamānamadānvitah dhanamānamadānvitah mohādgri, sorry, yajante nāma yajñaiste yajante nāma yajñaiste dambhenā vidhi pūrvakam dambhenā vidhi pūrvakam So, this is 16.17 and 16.10 are slightly similar. Here it is 16.10, the second line is dhanamānamadānvitah and 16.10 is dambhamānamadānvitah 16.10 is what? Yeah, so, dambhamānamadānvitah So, here it is dambhamānamadānvitah here it is dhanamānamadānvitah So, very similar. So, he says ātmasambhāvitāstabdhā self-impudent and complacent they are completely confident that they are right and they are impudent and madānvitah they are intoxicated by dhana and vāna by wealth and by power and then yajante nāma yajñaiste they don't do nāma yajña they do yajña for a nāma nāma yajña is chanting of the holy names they don't do nāma yajña they do yajña for a nāma they do yajña, sacrifice for the sake of name for such people, whatever religion they do, the religion that person practices, should be like a sanctuary for the soul it's a place where the soul finds shelter the soul gets relief, gets solace, gets nourishment, gets purification and ultimately gets liberation for such people, those who are yajante nāma yajñaiste, for them religion is not a sanctuary for the soul, it is a gymnasium for the ego what do you mean gymnasium for the ego? He says, you know, I gave more donation than others you know, for example, there is this, Ganesh Utsav is there, you know, so basically that Ganesh Utsav is often just an exhibition of the you know, I had this big Ganesh deity, and I have this big Ganesh deity and I have this big Ganesh deity so actually, what happens is it's just, religion often becomes a gymnasium for the ego you are just exhibiting, I am so great, I am so great, I am so great you know, so the whole idea is that when I give a lecture then thousands of people come he gives a lecture, only a few hundred people come so actually you know, a real spiritual teacher is not concerned about the number of people, he is concerned about the souls of the people, you know, it's not how many people come, but how those people are benefited so for such people, so now Krishna is talking about, earlier he has talked about those are people who are overtly atheistic, now here Krishna is talking about people who make a show of religion they are not overtly atheistic they make a show of religion so Krishna started talking about these people in 16.15 when he said that yakshe dasyami modishya who make a show of religion so they are completely materialistic but just for the sake of yakshe I will do some yajna, dasyami I will give some charity and modishya I will enjoy I will enjoy so people often when they give donations they also want their names to be very prominently displayed that I gave this much donation so now we may say that in the past also kings would build big big temples and then they would become famous that I have built this temple for god so the difference between most people today or many people today who give big donations and the kings is that the kings themselves in their lives would also be devoted many of the kings they were themselves devoted to god and as an expression of their devotion they would also build big temples but many times now the temples are built and people are given money people give money just so that they can have their name promoted and that is very unfortunate so religion should be a sanctuary for the soul not a gymnasium for the ego sanctuary means a place of shelter a place of recovery, a place of solace so when we chant Hare Krishna we should be concerned how we are pleasing Krishna, not concerned how many people are observing how erect I sit and how attentively I chant or worse of all how many people are sleeping if you are seeing that we are not getting any shelter at all so our religion should be a sanctuary for the soul so if I am fasting on Ekadashi and I am seeing who all is eating what, then you know what is happening my body is fasting but my ego is feasting I am so proud this person is such a sense gratifier I am a renouncer but actually my ego is getting aggrandized over there yes Guruji here it is mentioned the verse number 13 to 15 that the demonic people they are thinking today I have this much wealth tomorrow I will get this much and this person is my enemy I will kill him by hook and crook they do so many things at the same time they help for some genuine purpose like somewhere for temple construction or book distribution like that so one side they are engaging all religious activities, simple activities another side they are helping for such a religious cause and that is genuine cause so whether they will get some pious credit whether they will get pious credit people who are doing who are say engaging in this kind of activities as mentioned ungodly activities demonic activities but then along with that they are doing some religious activities yes definitely if they are contributing something to Krishna they will get definitely the benefit but then it is our duty also to try to give them spiritual knowledge so that they can understand the importance of spirituality and morality always if you are taking something for someone it is our duty to give that person something also so generally for example if brahmacharis go to the house of grahasthas they take prasad there then it is also important that they give some spiritual knowledge over there you know in the in the in the offshoots of vedic culture in greek in greek and roman traditions they had the whole concept of a sin eater sin eater what is a sin eater it is a very peculiar concept but it is just a distortion in the vedic tradition the idea was that you know if you if a householder invites saintly people to the house and then he offers food so what happens he gets purified and then it is said that the just like when somebody touches the feet of a saintly person then it is said that the karma of that person gets transferred to the saintly person so like that when somebody eats food at somebody's house when a saintly person then their karma comes to him but if he is purely devoted to the lord then he doesn't get so affected but that concept was later on distorted and in the greek tradition or in the pagan tradition that were there at the time of christianity they had the idea that there were certain people whose profession was to be sin eaters that means you know if you have committed some sinful activity just invite that person and feed that person and before feeding that person pray to god please let my sins go to him so you know see the whole idea is too simplistic you know the whole idea is sins are like liquid cash that can be transferred from here to there it is not like that it is not at all like that but the idea is that that was the conception that there are sinful reactions and you know if a saintly person is going to somebody's house if we are giving if taking food we have to give knowledge to some extent similarly if you are taking money you know we can't just say thank you and that is not enough even if we are accepting it for Krishna's sake we are accepting it so it is important for us that we also give something in return, so we should give spiritual knowledge now to what extent in what manner we can give, to what extent they can accept, that will be change according to the circumstance, but if we just accept money and don't try to do good for them in return then we are not doing our service to them properly see are we getting some karma from them in general as devotees when we are trying to do our service to Krishna we shouldn't be too paranoid about karma we should be concerned about how we can best serve people Radhesan asked this question to Radhanath Maharaj sometimes we are sometimes we are counseling some people and then those people fall to sinful activities and now if we correct them if we don't correct them strongly they will continue the sinful activities, but if we correct them very strongly then they may go away from devotional service and they may still continue the sinful activities even more, because they have gone away from devotional service, so what should we do in such situations so and he says if they are doing sinful activities we are also getting their karma so Maharaj said the first thing is we should put karmic considerations completely apart and we should think of what is the best way to encourage that person in devotional service so sometimes you know if a person is repeatedly falling to some wrong activity then maybe that person has to change his ashram or change his situation or something if the person is in prominent leadership position the person cannot be in leadership position those changes may have to be made at a practical level but whatever way we deal with people they should feel encouraged at the end in devotional service that we care for them and we want them to be healed, you know the whole purpose is if in a soldier if a soldier in an army he is in the battlefield a soldier gets wounded now a wounded soldier should be sent to the hospital not to the prison isn't it you know to become wounded it's not a crime it's a tragedy it's an accident so similarly when a person does something wrong now it's very rare within ISKCON with the kind of standards that we have it's very rare that a person will intentionally come with a evil mentality very rare that actually our 4 regulative principles and our 16 rounds take care of that you know if a person is just coming to ISKCON so that I can get power and I can get money and I can get fame then he will think waking up everyday in the morning chanting 16 rounds outside in the world I can get it much easier so it's unlikely that a person will come with just that motive but while practicing devotional service sometimes our values may get distorted and we may start aspiring for these things more than we are aspiring for Krishna so at that time a course correction is needed for such a person so if a person is going on the wrong track that person has to be brought back but that has to be done in a very sensitive way so rather than thinking that that person is a criminal who has to be sent to a prison that person has to be felt that now you have become a victim, you have become wounded you are a casualty and you have to be taken to the hospital but sometimes when a person is sent to the hospital you know that sentence of sending to the hospital is made to appear as if it is going sent to a prison so then that can be very demoralizing for the person so you know how can we help the world if when our own soldiers get wounded by our disapproval, by our criticism by our condemnation we are practically shooting those who are wounded you know then how can we actually help the world so this doesn't mean that we condone we allow loose moral standards but when there are lapses when there are falls whoever is having those problems we should be able to help them not only should we intend to help them but they should also feel that what we are doing is actually for helping them so it's not easy and especially for those who are in the management or leadership position it's very difficult on one side you have to maintain the standards on the other side we have to make sure that the devotees are cared for they feel cared for also so it's not easy balance but if we are too paranoid about karma then it's a very self-centered way of looking at things you know if my subordinate does something sinful then I'll get the karma, therefore he should not do sinful so I say no, he should not do sinful things because that's bad for him that should be our primary consideration so when we are accepting donation from somebody should we be thinking, hey if this person is doing some sinful activities I take donation from him, I'll get karma no, if he is doing sinful activities he will suffer and he has done some service to Krishna and he has enabled me to do some service to Krishna therefore I should care for him and I should try to help that person yes does that mean whether we can accept donation from anyone the practicals will vary from principle to principle from situation to situation but in principle you know if anybody wants to render service to Krishna we shouldn't stop that person if anybody wants to render service we shouldn't stop that person but how that service is to be facilitated that has to be seen according to the time and place so we can accept Lakshmi from anyone but generally speaking if a person is known to be involved in activities that are immoral criminal or involved in the breaking of four regulatory principles then we may not ourselves go to solicit donations from them but then if that person wants to give, we don't have to say no but then such Lakshmi should be used directly for the deities you know if somebody is having a wine factory and that person wants to give a big donation so that donation should not be used to sponsor the prasad for brahmacharis you know that donation can be used for the deities directly that's how it should be done, it has to be done carefully and if such people are involved it's best that we take guidance from seniors and let them handle it the principle is that if any soul wants to serve Krishna, we shouldn't stop that but then one person's service should not lead to other people's alienation from service that means if it is seen that people who are known to be corrupt or criminal or whatever then other people will get a negative perception by which they will be alienated from service to Krishna there has to be a balance in that and that senior devotees can guide us about how to do that yes like you were telling about Maharaj telling you should not bother too much about karma considerations of karma when we are serving so just few days back in one temple one brahmachari was sharing two brahmacharis were sharing with me that they are into fund collection service and it's not in Kanpur temple because it is being recorded so they were telling that because of this service they were observing that whoever went into this service anywhere in ISKCON for a long period of time at least after the age of 35-40 he had to change and another thing they were telling like sometimes they go to some rich people's house and in today's modern cities many people they don't wear clothes properly outside the house what to serve inside and they were telling that how people also aware that if you feed these people exactly what was being discussed right now if you feed these people this is like they are in principle knowing about sin eating and these guys are also knowing, they are also knowing just that both are not speaking and he said if I don't do it then I don't achieve my targets so I was asking why don't you request your superiors to change your service or just meet the people in the temple so he said they said no no we are empowering you, you go ahead so what is the right our point of view because they do get affected right at the end he was telling that every night every day he eats whichever day he goes and eats in such people's house he has a nightfall immediately some brahmacharis have to do fundraising services and they have to eat food also cooked by people who are materialistic who don't dress properly and then when they eat that the result of that karma is that he has nightfalls and over a period of time they may change their ashram also they do change their ashram yeah see generally it is rare that Kshatriyas will ever stay brahmacharis so that's why Bhishma is very special and it's even more rare that Vaishyas or Shudras will be brahmacharis so Vaishnavism itself is transcendental but within Vaishnavism if we are doing the activities which are of either Kshatriyas or Brahmanas or Vaishyas not to speak of devotees who are in fundraising even devotees who are only in management even they find it difficult to continue on as brahmacharis lifelong many of the devotees who are very dedicated and very competent managers also but if the management is all that they do then it's difficult because that every particular varna every particular profession brings along with it a certain mentality and then that leads to certain kinds of psychology, certain kinds of thinking basically so generally speaking if say this is the material world then it's like Shudras are right here, Vaishyas are here, Kshatriyas are here, Brahmanas are here so the Brahmanas are often called as Bhudeva they are gods on the earth why are they called like that? because their consciousness is supposed to be almost godly they are on the earth but not on the earth, that's why they are called as Bhudeva the Kshatriyas are called as Naradeva it's recognized that they are Naras but they are godly because they have that power of god god like power that they have but the Brahmanas are considered to be Bhudeva because they are almost gods on earth their consciousness is not of the earth but that's only when they do Brahmanical activities so in general for Brahmacharya to be sustained over a period of time a Brahmanical mode of functioning is essential in emergencies Brahmanas, Brahmacharyas may also have to do the activities of Kshatriyas or Vaishyas but if the Brahmacharyas are to be sustained they need to have a strong Brahmanical component it's not necessary that they have to do only Brahmanical services if they have particular propensities then they may do others also but the Brahmanical component has to be, if it's not dominant it at least has to be significant dominant means it's almost entirely Brahmanical activities but if it's not dominant it has to be significant a sufficient part of it but if that is not there then the other Varanas are such that people will not be able to continue and that's not something which is surprising it's just natural so firstly we should see this in terms of scripture so essentially what is happening is whatever scripture tells us that's what is actually happening so of course it's not that all Brahmanas are also Brahmacharis many Brahmanas may also be Grihasthas but the Brahmanical way of life is most suited to Brahmacharya so when this is happening in certain institutions what can be done about it in certain places within our institution I mean then firstly we should be grateful that you know our authorities our spiritual master and our guides they have created a Brahmanical culture and actually speaking 10-15 years ago even within ISKCON 15 years ago this sort of culture was not there and you know the kind of Bhakti Shastri classes that we are having now Bhakti Rasawat Maharaj when he took Sanyas you know at that time just before he took Sanyas he had took a Bhakti Shastri exam now he has taught Bhakti Shastri but what they had made the rule that Sanyasis should have done Bhakti Shastri and you know he is much more learned than a Bhakti Vaibhav also but he has not officially done that exam because there was no system and no structure for anything like that so now the whole Brahmanical mode of functioning is now gradually being encouraged Ravindra Sirupur wrote an article about Varanashram mission unfulfilled so he says Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to be the head of society but ISKCON has forgotten to grow its own head that means that ISKCON has not nourished its Brahmanical community you know so it's not that everybody in ISKCON has to be a Brahmana but the Brahmanical community in ISKCON was largely neglected so you know I had a long discussion with Bhakti Vikas Maharaj about this those who were Brahmanically inclined many of them went into the academy and they started becoming academic scholars some of them went to Gaudiya Math many of ISKCON's brightest scholars Tripuri Maharaj, Narsimha Maharaj Vishnu Maharaj brilliant scholars they have written a lot of books but somehow they felt that within ISKCON they could not do their scholarly activities so they are faithful Gaudiya Vaishnavas now they are in their own way faithful to Prabhupada also but they took guidance from Sridhar Maharaj or Puri Maharaj and then they continued on so we should respect them but somehow ISKCON couldn't accommodate them and they had some difficulties and others they just tried to put aside their Brahmanical propensities and tried to get started doing other activities so anyway over a period of time now things are changing and a Brahmanical culture is being encouraged is being encouraged but still it is not encouraged Satsvarupa Maharaj was telling at one time he was I was talking with him so he said that when they were running he was the editor of Back to Godhead for many years so one of the prominent GBC leaders told him what is the need for Back to Godhead Prabhupada's books are enough do you think your writings are better than Prabhupada's writings such a short sighted vision a tradition goes on not just by its Acharya but also by its living teachers you know the next thing if we say that we don't know in Back to Godhead the next thing we can say why do we need if we don't need current writers then we can say next we don't need current speakers also current speakers are not better than Prabhupada's so everyday instead of having Bhagavatam class just have Prabhupada's classes and next thing we can have is you know even today's Kirtan years are not as pure as Prabhupada's so from Mangal Aarti Tulsi Aarti, Guru Puja let Prabhupada's Kirtan only be played so then the end result of this mentality is that only Prabhupada is doing devotional service so point is that overall in our movement the Brahminical culture has not been encouraged so much till now for whatever reasons actually historically speaking Prabhupada started the movement in the emergency mode.

Prabhupada did not know how much time he would have and he just encouraged devotees to go out and preach vigorously and towards later part of his life Prabhupada wanted things to slow down but the devotees just went on with their momentum Prabhupada wanted that we should boil the milk now but that didn't happen so now the functioning in the mode of goodness, the cultivation of Brahminical culture it is happening but it is not happening as widespread as it should be happening so actually wherever we have that opportunity now it is important that we set a good example which other temples will feel inspired to follow which other temples will feel inspired to follow. I remember the early days of when I had just joined Pune, 2-3 years after I had joined so one other temple president he came to our Pune temple, old temple and he said kya hai yeh aap log aap itne saalon se mandir mein ho so Radheshyam was telling me this afterwards he told Radheshyam aap 5-6 saalon se abhi tak mandir ke adhyaksh ho bhagwan ko aapne ek jhobdi mein kya rakha hai, ab humare mandir mein bhagwan ki seva kaise karna hai, hum aapko sikhate hai aur phir aap bhagwan ke liye mandir bana payegi so now he is a devotee good devotee but for him the only definition of success in service to the lord was building a big temple but then over a period of time especially in 2004 when we had the national youth festival and people saw so many devotees coming together and then there were so many brahmacharis and then devotees were given to other temples and then overall then the value of youth preaching was recognized and now many other temples all over the world all over the country and the world are doing youth preaching youth preaching is just one aspect of developing a brahmanical culture just one step, youth preaching alone is not brahmanical culture but especially when we go to students who are educated and then they have the ethos of education and they will take education seriously with a scorn and then they can become brahmanical so where the brahmanical culture is set up it is our responsibility to make sure that it is successful and then as much as possible to share it with others so in general we shouldn't criticize the management over there we can try to if there are devotees in such situations we can encourage them to try to manage their time as well as possible so that they can do some brahmanical activities as much as possible but if things are very difficult if they are finding that it's a matter of they can't survive as brahmacharis then one's ashram is more important than one's temple so then that means one has to situate oneself in a way where one can best serve Krishna so that is certainly not the first thing that should be done but the idea is that it is our spiritual advancement is ultimately our responsibility I cannot say that because my authorities did not allow me to do this so after 25 years in my spiritual life I have not read Bhagavad Gita also once why? because my authorities did not give me time well, well it's my my spiritual advancement is my responsibility ultimately speaking, isn't it? so I know what is the process that Prabhupada has given, what is the process that is given in the scriptures and I have joined the movement to follow that process so the surrender to the authorities is so that I can follow the process that is given, isn't it? so we are not encouraging rebellion in any way but we are just encouraging a return to the right priorities and we don't encourage it by by sort of sowing the seeds of conflict anywhere, conflict or rebellion but just by setting a good example so wherever brahminical communities we are a part of if we show that we are doing it well and then well not just in the sense that we are very learned but in the sense that we are able to contribute to Prabhupada's mission and people see that and people will emulate that but over a period of time ISKCON is moving towards recognizing at least the necessity for Bhakti Shastri at least the necessity for basic grounding in scriptures yes yes as far as changing the ashram is concerned considered to be an extreme decision but the nature of a person for example the Vaishya, Kshatriya, Shudra or Brahmana it is possible to change by training over the period of time for example there is an example of crazy Peter becoming Krishakrut Prabhu afterward so by training can we change our this nature which is maybe because of past life activities or so by training can we change our nature if an individual feels inspired to change the nature that is fine but others forcing a person to change the nature won't work by the process of power of Bhakti anything is possible but Bhakti generally acts through individual inspiration so over a period of time the devotees will be most steadily situated when they are serving according to their nature but sometimes Krishna may inspire some people by which they may serve in a way that is different from other people different from whatever their earlier nature was so in general this whole discussion of whether to serve according to our nature or to serve different early that's a very delicate and complicated discussion the basic principle is that first of all you know it's not very easy to know what is our nature it is not so very easy some devotees they may discover this is the service I like to do, this is the service I want to do life long but most of us we will find ok I like the service, I like the service for 1 month, 2 months, 6 months, 9 months and now I want something new then we start feeling that I would like to do something new so whether whether a particular service that we like right now is our nature it's difficult to say that so best is that in general we at least in the early years of our spiritual life we follow the instructions given by our authorities and do whatever services we are told to do but at the same time while doing what we are told to do we observe ourselves and see two things which services we are happy doing and which services we are good at doing generally whichever services we are happy doing we are also good at doing them, we will do them well but actually rather than saying that this is my nature it's best to do whatever we are told to do but observe don't just do whatever we are told to do but while doing whatever we are told to do also observe what is it that I feel happy doing and what is it that I am good at doing and over a period of time by these two observations we will by observing thus we will discover ok I have done these services but this is what I can do best in my spiritual life and then we will gravitate towards that service over a period of time so we can of course whenever we have a counselor or a guide we can tell these are the kind of services I like to do so we can tell that and over a period of time we will grow towards that service but often so rather than imagining that you know we have some fixed nature and we just have to discover that nature it's not like that because to a large extent when there is cross breeding that means when a brahmana marries a kshatriya and the son it's not necessarily he will have a brahminical mentality or a kshatriya he will have a mix of two and now we are in a we are in a Vedic society where there has been you know generations and generations of cross breeding so so most devotees that I have seen are you know they need a blend of everything to be happy you know they need some sort of they need to have some counseling, some preaching some management, some solitude some something of everything so so that is the case so rather than thinking you know what is my nature and should I serve according to nature we should just see what are we happy doing and what are we good at doing and then focus on doing that and that's how we will go on in life ok yes so so we are discussing this about Atma Sambhavita Stapda now after this Krishna will start talking about ok one point I just left over here see Anyayanarthasanchayan so relativism means that there is no absolute truth so this verse what it talks about is when there is metaphysical relativism, metaphysical relativism means there is no absolute truth so if I think there is no absolute truth then there is no absolute right way of living also so metaphysical relativism that means metaphysics everything is relative that will lead to moral relativism that means everything is relative in moral terms you know so if a child is there in the womb should we allow it to live or should we kill it it's your choice it's your choice you know choice seems to be very popular word but tomorrow if a man says can I rape a woman it's your choice can you say like that you know nobody can be allowed no civilized society will allow like that why because if a man rapes a woman man is hurting the woman similarly when a mother aborts a child she is hurting the child so choice is good in some ways but choice is also coupled with responsibility towards others so but when there is no understanding of the inherent sanctity of life so what is life life is just something which evolves when the biochemical state comes to a particular appropriate level then there is no inherent sanctity to life then we can kill that life so metaphysical relativism will lead to moral relativism so I discussed this in my oh my god book as well as the class now there are atheist thinkers who are saying that I mentioned yesterday they are saying even after a child is born you know the mother can abort the child can kill the child so if life has no inherent sanctity then they said okay in the first trimester after three months in the pregnancy the child can be killed then after four months, five months, six months and now it's after birth also so there is no limit to this moral relativism so without without a foundation in transcendence the morality is just lack of opportunity that means I think that by being moral if I will be able to be better off then I will be moral but if I am being immoral I will be better off then I will be immoral so it's not that those who are atheists have to be immoral sometimes atheists may also be moral but if atheists are moral their morality is not because of their atheism, their morality is in spite of their atheism that means their atheism does not give them any reason to be moral but they have some moral fabric within them because of which they are continuing to be moral so now why are we saying this because in the atheistic world view there is no reason for morality ultimately because there is no god, there is no no inherent sanctity to life there is no obligation to be good to others ultimately the greatest value of life is to just enjoy yes yes morality can also come because of spiritual culture existing over a period of time yes definitely yes so is morality coming because of spiritual culture yes it is but you know it is not that atheists are necessarily immoral there are people who can be atheists there are especially in America atheism is also militant in the sense that atheists are aggressive so now there are some statistics which seem to indicate that atheists are more charitable than religious people and their idea is very interesting they say atheists actually donate to causes that are humanitarian religious people donate only to religious causes not to humanitarian causes they try to take a higher moral ground you know you people religious people are donating to only what you believe in but we donate to the general good of humanity so you know when we just try to we can't see atheism is a belief and that belief if it is continued over a period of time that can spoil all the good qualities of a person but due to the past culture which is not spiritual the past culture can be sattvic also so if an atheist was brought up by parents who lived in goodness then he may inherit that culture and that's why atheists may also be in goodness relatively speaking in terms of lifestyle but that atheist may be militantly atheistic so the point which you are making here is morality that is present it has to come moral principles are present either due to goodness or due to passion when they are in goodness they are based on some spiritual knowledge or at least some metaphysical knowledge some deeper understanding when moral principles are due to passion they are based on utilitarianism in business many times people make promises for example now you give me this contract and I will deliver the products by this much time now that person it is not necessary for him to deliver but if he delivers at that time it is a moral obligation if he does that then he gets a good reputation and then he will get more customers, more clients more money so morality can be because of goodness of course morality can be because of transcendence also it can be because of goodness and it can be because of passion also so you are talking about morality because of transcendence, because of past spiritual culture it is also possible that morality is because of past goodness and morality can also be there like there are many atheistic scientists who say that our planet is in danger our ecology is in danger we should protect it so in Rio de Janeiro there was a some summit of all world's ecological leaders and they said that our efforts to protect nature need to be imbued with the vision of the sacred and religious communities all over the world have a great role to play because they can all inspire their congregations to protect nature so now many of these people who are signatories for this they themselves are atheists and they don't believe in god, they don't believe in religion per se but their appeal to religion was purely utilitarian now we want to protect ecology and if religion can help us to protect ecology then why not so there there is some ecological concern but it is utilitarian which means utilitarian morality may also be there so now Krishna will talk about the end destination that such people will get so here he will talk first about their qualities and then he will in concluding words he summarizes their qualities and then he will shift to their destination ahankaram balam darpam kamam krodham cha samshritah kamam krodham cha samshritah mamatma paradeheshu mamatma paradeheshu pradhvishanto bhyasuyakah pradhvishanto bhyasuyakah so ahankaram balam darpam this is a list of all the qualities so arrogance, strength, pride so darpa you remember dambho darpa bhimanasya darpa came earlier so kamam krodham cha samshritah they take shelter of all these qualities and then he says Krishna first time in the Bhagavad Gita refers to himself and the relationship of the demoniac with himself he says they are envious of me mamatma paradeheshu pradhvishanto pradhvishanto is envious, dveshu, dvishantu envious so mamatma paradeheshu I am situated in their heart to me as well as to me who is situated in their hearts as well as situated in the hearts of others, they are envious pradhvishanto abhyasuyakah so they blaspheme because they are abhyasuyakah, envious so now this is the mentality of these people and then what happens to them, we will discuss in the next tours so should we, we will need around 15-20 minutes to complete this chapter, should we complete this chapter and then take a break ok fine so now Krishna will talk about how how these people are punished tanam dvishatah krooran samsareshu naradhaman samsareshu naradhaman shipam yajasrama shubhan yajasrama shubhan asurishwe vayonishu so tanaham, those people dvishatah krooran they are cruel and they are envious samsareshu naradhaman they are naradhamas, so in the samsara kshipami kshipami are their caste yajasrama shubhan for a long time in auspicious places asurishwe vayonishu so what are these inauspicious places, the asuriyoni the demoniac birds, let's recite the next verse then I will discuss asurimyoni maa panna mudha janmani janmani mudha janmani mama prapeva kaunteya mama prapeva kaunteya so asurimyonim aapanna they attain the asuriyoni and then mudha, they are foolish janmani janmani, for many many lifetimes they go through and then mama prapeva kaunteya they don't attain me, on the other hand they go into lower and lower destinations so here, in a sense krishna it seems as if krishna is personally angry with these people I throw them away and then they go into tatoyantya dhamam gathim they go into further lower species so actually speaking, now prabhupada gives a very significant insight through his translation in the previous verse now dushyataha kruran tanam dushyataha kruran so dushyataha is envious generally the word kruran is cruel prabhupada translates kruran as mischievous now what does it indicate so actually this explanation is talking about the heart of krishna, sometimes a father may, if a son is doing something very wrong a father may tell the son if you do this, you will never come into my house again now the idea is not that you should get out of my house the idea is don't do this isn't it, so the statements which are indicated to convey the strength of the emotion and it is not necessarily a literal statement similarly here, so from krishna's point of view, no matter how much demoniac people become they are his children and what they are doing is just mischief so mischievous that's why prabhupada is translating kruran as mischievous and the idea is krishna is saying why are you acting in such demoniac ways, don't do that otherwise you will have to suffer life after life it is not krishna who is causing suffering it is our own karma that is causing suffering and krishna is expressing his sadness and his anger at that, why are you doing like this, so the emphasis is not that you will be thrown into hell, the emphasis is primarily that we should not do this so that we will not have to suffer it there is the concept of eternal damnation in certain religions if you don't surrender to jesus or allah in this life, then you are going to go to hell forever so the bhagavad gita, it doesn't talk about eternal damnation, but this verse seems to come very close to that they will go forever they will not attain me and they will go to further lower species, but that is actually if they continue their demoniac mentality but they always have a chance to reform their demoniac mentality if they reform then they will not go down but demoniac mentality has its consequences so now is there eternal damnation talked about in the bhagavad gita, no why, because krishna says that from any situation a person can be reformed there are many references to the bhagavad in the bhagavad gita, the most direct is 9.30 is apichet sudracharo and 4.36 is apichet asipapebhyasarvebhyapapakrutamaha and even 9.32 he says that ye pishupapayonas so there are many verses that krishna talks about that no matter how degraded a person is if that person takes shelter of him, comes to spiritual knowledge and practices devotional service from whatever situation that person may be that person can be elevated so that's why the bhagavad gita doesn't support eternal damnation now this is an elaborate point so madhvacharya seems to teach eternal damnation so these three modes, madhvacharya seems to say that goodness, passion, ignorance, so he says these are modes not of the mind, but he says these are modes of the soul he says the souls are of three kinds they are nitya yogya, nitya samsari and narak yogya and he says mukti, mukti yogya are the souls who will attain liberation by the practice of bhakti nitya samsari, if they practice bhakti, they will continue on material existence, but they can live better they can never get liberated and narak yogya are those souls who are destined to go to hell only so now, is this madhvacharya's teaching? actually, madhvacharya has said a lot of things and he has made various statements also, other places in the Gita commentary he says that the modes refer to the body, not the soul so in a madhvacharya his mood was of militant confrontation of mayavad so for that sake, every acharya makes statements which are contextual and which are eternal so the contextual statements that are there they are meant to create a fear of mayavad in people so that they don't go towards mayavad so the idea of eternal lamination is not there anywhere in the vedic tradition and it is not there actually speaking, in madhvacharya's teachings also but some people interpret it that way and this is the verse that they use to substantiate it but if you look at the overall message of the Bhagavad Gita and the overall tenor of the teachings of the vedic literature then, this is not there at all ok so now, let's move forward and let us see what happens further questions? ok quickly sometimes person helping for wrong cause like so he will also get some reaction because helping some for irreligious reasons, causes like for example, I also heard that Indian government giving the monetary help to the person like the terrorist families who are coming from the Pakistan killing in India some innocent public but Indian government is supporting their families by giving them some pension kind of things so my question is the person helping for some like somewhere and they are also involved in irreligious activity so what they are getting reaction? so if a person helps those who are involved in irreligious activities do they get the karma? see there is a humanitarian compassion that has to be expressed so just the idea that people may do wrong if we help them shouldn't make us hard hearted so we should want to help others but at the same time the desire to help others should not make us so sentimental that we end up harming others so there are two extremes in the name of that people will harm themselves so we don't help them only that is not good so that's why if we give prasad to people that is generally not a way which people can abuse so giving prasad is always very good but giving monetary help to those who are not capable of taking help or those who are likely to abuse help that is mismanagement that is true, it will lead to karma in certain countries in their welfare states so in the welfare states the government offers money to those people who don't have a job so the result of that is these people are supposed to take that money for their necessities but they forget their necessities and they use the money to take drugs or worse still in some cases in the west it is quite common for women to become pregnant and to have children before they are married also so they are called as single mothers so now when there are single mothers the government supports them financially so then what has happened is now imagine there are two girls and now one girl she is going through her education she is going through college and she has to struggle to meet her finances and some other girl she has become pregnant she has a child and the government is paying money so what it becomes is to become unchaste is financially more lucrative because if you just have a child the government will support you now the government's intention is not bad because otherwise those children will become abandoned so many complications will come up but what happens is once we lose scriptural morality everything becomes a mess so similar now with respect to the specific example of the government supporting the families of terrorists sometimes there is a tendency to try to have simplistic analysis of complex problems see in general to a large extent the muslim community has been poorer than the hindu community and because these muslims are poor they need money for their livelihood and then they are they are attracted by the propaganda of the hardline muslim preachers who say that if you lay down your life for Allah then you will get jannat you will get jannat and what is the urdu word for wealth money there is some word which rhymes with jannat you will get jannat and your family will get daulat that is their idea so they say that if you die we will pay your family members also now the government's intention is what that these people who are becoming terrorists they are often becoming terrorists because of financial allurement so if they are financially well supported then they will not become terrorists so that is the motive but whether it works out that way or not that is a different issue but in general especially as devotees who are representing a spiritual organization we have to be careful when we get into religious issues and we have to make statements very carefully so we shouldn't appear to be anti-muslim because Prabhupada was not anti-muslim Prabhupada reported ok there was Aurangzeb destroyed so many temples and things like that but Prabhupada generally took transcendental view of situations not specifically he did not get into the material integrities of problems so it is not faithful to our parampara also in a sense and also it can be politically very volatile so it is a complex problem and certainly the Indian government's way of dealing with it leaves much to be desired but thinking that there are some specific solutions in terms of not doing this and doing that that is in a very dicey zone which you should not get into but the principle is what you are saying is true that if you sometimes help others when they are not in a situation to be helped it can make things worse so this is actually I was going to discuss in 17th chapter when we talk about charity in the three modes but we are discussing it now over here so ok Guruji, these demonic people they are gliding to the hill so is it that they also go to the lower planetary systems or in the sense from lower planetary systems they want to they get the chance to come to earth planet actually what is actually they are waiting for because in lower planetary systems there is also system is there where they can do more sense gratification so why people want to come to earth planet if there is more sense gratification is there or like in why do people want to come to earth planet if lower planetary systems also have pleasure no not all lower planetary systems are having pleasure sutar is an exception other lower planetary systems have suffering there is some pleasure also but there is also suffering also and here Krishna these demoniac people are not just going to lower species Krishna will talk about naraka in the next verse naraka dwara so hell is below the lower planetary systems also those who are extremely demoniac they will not just go to lower planetary systems if you see what Krishna is describing over here is much more specific and graphic than what Krishna described as the characters of tamoguna in the last, in 14th chapter now what is there he describes aprakasho pravrutischa moham evache pandava so they know prakash they have no pravrutti, they just termed moham pramadho moham evache so here Krishna is describing not just general mode of ignorance but it's like violent ignorance malevolent ignorance so those who are ignorant will go down but those who are demoniac they will go way way down, they will go directly to the hellish planets so why do people from the lower species want to come lower planets want to come to the human species or the earthly planetary system because this is dharma phetra here there is greater facility to practice dharma so there is a natural process of evolution it's not that they the devatas have more evolved consciousness and devatas will pray here it is more easier to practice devotional life so we would like to take birth here but from the lower planet systems there is a process of evolution by which they come up so continuing this we hear the like there is a differences like rakshasas are there dhanav, daitya and you know different different kinds of asuric bodies are there so is it because because they have like for example dhanavas are like that or rakshasas it is told that sometimes they are more beautiful than the human people also yes the lower species they may have greater beauty, they may have greater power, physical power they may have greater mystical power but their consciousness is not higher human species higher than the rakshasa, dhanava, daitya species in the sense that the spiritual consciousness is more developed and there is greater opportunity for development of spiritual consciousness also further but in terms of physical attributes the rakshasas and dhanavas and daityas they may better endure than humans also that is why the power struggle is between the rakshasas and the devas and the humans are in between it is like a tug of war going on and we are the rope you know so once they control the humans they can control after that the other parts of the universe also so they have some they may have better powers than us but their consciousness meant for spiritual purpose is not better than ours ok that means we can understand like this in the sense right now what we are studying is the demonic and divine qualities for the human being like what is facing the problems in the earth planet like this or like in this planet where the human like a normal human being who is actually struggling with the divine and demonic qualities so yes if you look at the bhagavad gita although it gives wisdom about the whole universe but it is primarily targeting human beings that is the 15th chapter second verse it talks about manushya loka and martya loka it is talked about so yes it also gives us knowledge about other lokas a little bit but primary message is for human beings and the divine and demonic qualities I talked about are here for human beings and the way they cultivate and what will be the consequence of that ok so let's go a little fast now now after that we will talk about the kama, krodha and loka trividham narakasedam trividham narakasedam dwaram nashanam atmanah dwaram nashanam atmanah kama krodhas tatha lobhas kama krodhas tatha lobhas smade tatrayam teje smade tatrayam teje so trividham narakasedam the narak dwaram they are the doors to hell so what does it mean that actually when we do these activities then this will take us to hell, so krishna says now in kalyuga almost every advertisement is like a door to hell now it's injecting last anger greed within us so there are so many doors to hell that instead of people going to hell hell comes to people also that means hellish conditions come over here so dwaram nashanam atmanah, the atma is avinashi but for the spiritual inclination the spiritual consciousness of the atma gets lost because of last anger greed and then krishna therefore says therefore give this up smade tatrayam teje now what is the correlation between last anger and greed see lust when fulfilled leads to greed and lust when unfulfilled leads to anger now how does this work see lust when unfulfilled leads to anger is understanding, we see some small children also they want something and they don't get it then they become angry and they throw temper tantrum and that's what happens when people get angry also it may happen in more different way it's expressed but when lust is fulfilled it leads to greed what does that mean it means several things one is that when lust is fulfilled that desire itself increases that desire itself increases so the person wants that more and more that becomes greed another point is that when lust is fulfilled what does that mean say if a man wants to enjoy with a woman and lust is fulfilled means the man gets to enjoy with the woman but then in general male and female psychology is slightly different women want a lot of material things they want a comfortable house and ornaments and garments and all those things and then to fulfill all those things the man has to become very money minded so that's how also lust leads to greed so when lust is fulfilled that means the man gets to enjoy with the woman but then to get to enjoy with the woman the man has to satisfy the woman and to satisfy that woman he has to become very materialistic he has to become very money minded so so so so there is that there are these frustrated there are these frustrated husbands jokes you know you know they say that a man does not worry about his future till he is married and a woman does not worry about her future after she is married laughing laughing now so of course this is not meant to make a caricature of men or women but the idea here is that the man he is relatively free before his marriage but after his marriage he has to become so concerned about so many other things that he just becomes very materialistic after that often he has to become it can be a part of responsibility but it can also become a result of infatuation so that's how lust leads to greed and Krishna says therefore give this up then he will say in the next verse what will be the result if you can give this up etair vimuktah kaunteya etair vimuktah kaunteya tamo dvaare istri bhirna raha tamo dvaare istri bhirna raha achiratyatmana hashreyas achiratyatmana hashreyas tato yatiparamgatim tato yatiparamgatim so etair vimuktah kaunteya if you are free from these tamo dvaare istri bhirna raha so tamo here refers not just to tamo guna but to ignorance, darkness the doors to darkness if you can become free from these then you will be able to act achiraty in such a way that atmanahashreyas, long term good for the soul and by that if you act for the long term interest of the soul then you will paramgatim you will attain the supreme destination now how does one become free from lust is it that ok I understand lust, anger, greed are bad so I will become free from them it doesn't work like that there is a process for becoming free and that process is given in the scriptures and the next verse Krishna will tell lust, anger, greed will take you to hell therefore become free from them by becoming free you will become liberated but how to become free that is by following scripture so the next verse will say act according to scripture so what is happening is Krishna is saying that you become free from this but if you don't become free from this then what will happen, first he will tell that and then he will tell how you can become free from this utsrujya vartate kama karta nasasiddhim avapnoti nasukham naparamgatim nasukham naparamgatim so utsrujya means to reject so if a person rejects scriptures and acts according to lust unregulated desire then he will not become happy because the desire is such that it will always keep growing keep growing we will just stay in materialistic consciousness and we will not attain the supreme destination nasiddhim, no perfection here refers to actually even material perfections are difficult if a person is not regulated in the desires even for a person who wants to become a champion athlete or a champion performer in any field some amount of self control required so siddhi can refer to material perfection in material life or it can refer to yogic perfection in mystic path but nasasiddhim so if one is completely unregulated in life then one cannot attain even material or spiritual success nasiddhim naparamgatim now after describing this then he will tell, you must follow shastra tasmat shastram pramanam te tasmat shastram pramanam te karyakarya vyavasthitao karyakarya vyavasthitao jnatva shastra vidhaanoktam jnatva shastra vidhaanoktam therefore act according to shastra and by that you will stay safe so now here why should one act according to shastra see remember I mentioned earlier yesterday how all of us need some framework for making decisions some default pattern otherwise if I have to enter all details every time I start a word file or a ppt it will be very messy so all of us need some guidance for making decisions so lighthouses show a person the way that change and don't change generally people make their decisions lighthouses is what they show the way in darkness people decide on the ocean people make their decisions generally based on four factors now what is that four factors is culture tradition feeling and reason so culture is everyone is doing it so why do I eat it because everyone is eating it or tradition is we have always done it so sometimes some people are born in families where their parents used to drink their grandparents used to drink so why do I drink because we have always done it so we can base our feelings we can base our decisions on these factors one is everyone is doing it we have always done it feeling is it feels good or other emotion it feels good and reason is it makes sense so if you look at all our decisions generally if we do something it's because of one of these four factors however now these four are valuable no doubt but still all these are lighthouses that change now even if there is tradition it doesn't necessarily mean everything in the tradition is right because there is so much that goes on in the tradition today which is not actually given in scripture so like I was talking about tantra and left hand worship and all that that's a tradition for many people but that's not necessarily right so Jaya Dvait Maharaj once gave a lecture about you know he says why are people all over the world suffering why are the young people all over the world suffering? he said two reasons one is because they are not following their elders two is because they are following their elders what does it mean? because they are not following their elders then they are just slave to their minds and senses and in some cases they are following their elders but their elders are materialistic and then they are not getting spiritually elevated by that so emotion means it feels good so today most people decide based on culture and emotion fashion, what are all fashions? fashions are basically everyone is doing it and then it feels good so people become practice spirituality also many times because it feels good but then something can feel good but it may not necessarily be good for us there are so many spiritual institutions which just offer sort of painkiller spirituality means like I had gone to one institution before I was introduced to ISKCON so they said now we will offer you a spiritual experience people became interested what is spiritual experience? close your eyes imagine that you are in the banks of a river the river is flowing by you are feeling the wind softly touching your face you can see the blue clouds in the sky see the mountain towering above on the other side of the river see the small white birds flying in the sky feel the tiny drops of rain falling on your head touch the sand that is on your side relax your muscles let your eyes feast on the beauty that is all around you are ok everything is ok life is good you know I was in college at that time many of my college friends had come with and they said such a wonderful experience you know people are told they feel good but what is the substance in that? you open your eyes all the problems of the world are back again and what have we done to solve those problems? you know we may say that when chanting also we feel good but when we are chanting we are purifying our desires so chanting also not only makes us feel good but it purifies our desires so just feeling good is not enough necessarily for something actually being good and then it makes sense so logic helps in many ways but the absolute truth is not a slave to logic there are many things which are beyond logic because human logic is ultimately limited so it makes sense also now this doesn't mean that all these lighthouses are wrong but these lighthouses alone are not enough that's why when we have to make decisions scripture scripture should be our first and last lighthouse that means we can use other forms of reasoning other forms, other basis for decision making but we begin with scripture and we end with scripture and then we decide ok this is what I should do, this is what I should not do and surely we can use other forms also but those are not our primary decision makers we decide primarily based on scripture and other reason emotion, culture, tradition we follow it to the extent that it is in accordance with scripture so lighthouses that change so that means imagine if a lighthouse is on a lighthouse is supposed to guide the ocean but if the lighthouse is now situated on the coast and it is at a place where there are no rocks but imagine the lighthouse shifts and the lighthouse is later on placed where there are rocks then the ship that follows the lighthouse will crash and it will sink so the lighthouses that change means these things, these four things may sometimes guide us to the right thing but sometimes they may not guide us to the right thing so they are sometimes, they change means what sometimes they give the right guidance sometimes they do not give the right guidance so our reasoning is not always wrong but that doesn't mean it is always right no reasoning has its limitations similarly feelings they also have their value but we can't base our life just on feelings is this clear? yes you were mentioning about that institute where you underwent this kind of meditation so I also underwent some similar institute so actually they suggest that in the beginning they give us such experiences of peace after that they ask us to chant some mantras and they say that chant some mantras while meditating and then they resort us to some different kind of meditation and this is how they say that slowly slowly purification also happens and actually there are quite good number of people who have given up at least grossly sinful activities gross sinful activities by getting associated to such institute also so so there are many institutes which lead to purification in the sense that people give up sinful activities so what should be our perspective of these institutes see in rajoguna sattvaguna appeals although sattvaguna doesn't always seem practical when people are too passionate and agitated then if they can get some way of life where they can become more peaceful more focused, more composed, they like that so there can be institutes which help people relatively to rise from ignorance to passion or ignorance to passion and goodness or passion to goodness also so where credit is due that credit should be given so there are institutes which help people which have relative sattvic lifestyle they encourage it and people follow it and they come to sattvaguna the problem comes up when these institutes also make claims about transcendence that are not based on scripture see there are many people who claim to be god and you know we can just call those people as rascals but that is labelling is often a too simplistic solution so labelling yes it is true their claims of being god is wrong it is very dangerous for a human being to claim to be god that is true but if they are to some extent teaching some lifestyle that brings people to goodness that encourages people to be humanitarian so then to that extent it is good so where credit is due that can be given but where claims are made beyond what is warranted then it creates a problem so there are many institutes that do offer people some peace of mind do offer people freedom from some bad habits so how does that happen because they help people to come to higher mode of living from passion to goodness so we don't have to when we see you know sampradaya vihinaya mantras te nishfal mataha what does this mean nishfal doesn't mean that it is useless in the sense that it has no potency it is nishfal in terms that it will not give prema bhakti no it is nishfal or for that matter so what is the sarpa uchishta that poison is what will keep us from attaining krishna prema harikatha when it is heard from other people that can also purify in the sense that it can get people to rise from lower modes to upper modes but the pure love for krishna it will not come up karmakanda gyanakanda keval vishera bhanda what does this mean is narottam das takur saying that vyasadeva has given vishera bhanda to people karmakanda and gyanakanda no from the transcendental perspective anything that keeps people away from transcendence is undesirable so karmakanda and gyanakanda both keep them away from transcendence that's why they are vishera bhanda but within their framework they are elevating both karmakanda and gyanakanda do elevate people gradually and partially but still they do elevate people so just as there are vedic means for partial elevation gradual and partial elevation similarly there can be other people who are semi vedic so their conclusions may be entirely anti vedic there are so many spiritual leaders who claim to be god and their claims to godhood are certainly condemnable but apart from that they may do goseva they may encourage people to do goseva no they may because of their inspiration people stay within the vedic fold so because of such inspiration of such leaders people don't get converted to other religions people don't become grossly materialistic they open some hospitals they do some social service they often not all religious institutions say that you can do all kinds of sinful activities just chant some mantras there are some religious institutions which also encourage people to give up sinful activities so when they do like that some religious institutions insist that you have to give up sinful activities you have to follow the regulative principles or something similar to regulative principles then they are bringing about a positive transformation so when we hear some strong condemnation we have to understand the perspective from which it is coming so from the transcendental perspective what they are doing is rascals rascaldom we can say but from the social perspective humanitarian perspective religious perspective, cultural perspective they may be doing some good and where that good is done that can be recognized just like social service is better than sense gratification but if social service makes a person inimical or hostile towards God and devotion then that is bad so overall there are many spiritual institutions which which create positive spiritual impressions among people and in those and that they are keeping a broad spiritual culture and later on if people are more serious and if we can reach out in effective ways then people can rise to higher spiritual understanding also so that's why we don't necessarily have to condemn all these spiritual institutions certainly their claims about transcendence are terribly wrong many times but at other levels they may be doing some useful contributions clear you are telling they bring them they bring the people to mode of goodness but one of the symptoms of goodness is knowledge also Sukham and Gyanam so but but then knowledge of what knowledge they give is like very wrong philosophy so how can it be like goodness so one of the symptoms of goodness is knowledge then do they give correct knowledge well we will see knowledge and goodness is that basically the knowledge that comes in goodness is Atma Gyan it is Brahma Gyan it is to see the spirit beyond matter goodness doesn't lead to Bhakti Gyan Bhakti Gyan is transcendental we will look at 18th chapter knowledge in the three modes so if people get a general spiritual conception that is also in goodness so I am not saying that this institution necessarily bring people fully to goodness but they elevate people in some limited ways if a person is addict to alcohol and a person becomes free from alcohol that is good isn't it it is helping people become better it is helping human beings become better and it is not that is to be condemned so the only problem is that these institutes they are offering some social benefit, cultural benefit religious benefit humanitarian benefit but they claim to be spiritual institutions who are offering spiritual knowledge that is the problem so it is like a hospital that is say curing cancer but then it also starts claiming that we cure AIDS but there is no treatment for curing AIDS then people it is curing cancer that is good but it is not curing AIDS so what is happening is these institutions offer some benefit to people but they make unwarranted claims and when their claims go into transcendence that is where it becomes a problem clear so last question and we will stop can we follow the plan of the lord can we follow the plan of the lord yeah so without any vedic connection without any following the plan of the lord can people have experience of sustained change so if these institutions can they offer that see it is not necessary that material changes require a transcendental source that means say addiction it is a material problem a transcendental source can make it easier but it is not just like if I have got a sickness I don't necessarily directly need any transcendental element to cure at absolute level I can say everything happens by Krishna's grace but you know a hospital for the body doesn't have to be spiritual to be successful in curing its patients isn't it similarly at a cultural level at a psychological level there can be institutions which can bring about change so there are institutions which do work like that so now the problem is often they claim to be spiritual so material problems in ultimate sense don't have material solutions but in a intermediate sense they do have material solutions so those who offer the material solutions they are not doing anything bad if people are starving we can say there is no yajna that's why people are starving that's true that's the ultimate solution but if people are starving and somebody gives food to those people it's not that what they are doing is wrong it's just that it's not spiritual so just as the body can be mentored at a material level similarly the mind can also be mentored to some extent treated and helped at a material level so within ISKCON there are a wide variety of approaches or extremes of approaches how ISKCON should approach other spiritual institutions as I said earlier you know Prabhupada's statements about fools and rascals can be very easily quoted but there are many incidents where Prabhupada dealt with leaders of other spiritual institutions also quite respectfully if you just read Lila Amrit Prabhupada the way he dealt with Dr. Patel he cooked for him he cared for him although he did not compromise the philosophy so many times when Prabhupada went to went to forums there were leaders from multiple teachers who were preaching and we have one incident of Prabhupada in Cove in Japan when he directly criticized the Mayavadi leader but there are many incidents also where Prabhupada went to Sadhu Samaj meetings and Prabhupada did not criticize the other leaders you know when Prabhupada did the Sadhu Samaj meeting in Mumbai in Chowpatty beach so all the other leaders were practically Mayavadi so Prabhupada just before me Swamiji spoke so and so and he said that we should have Sadhachar and how should we have Sadhachar he completely put aside the Mayavadi teaching and focused on chanting about Sadhachar so you know when Radhanath Maharaj was writing this Journey Home book so he had given the book to me to read before I was published so I did some editing before that in ISKCON we had never seen any approach of you know talking about so many spiritual leaders as it seems always in ISKCON the tradition was as soon as you talk about spiritual leader you have to attach fool and rascal to that leader it is almost like that but it is the first time that we saw a book which is not like that when I asked Maharaj about it Maharaj said that you know Prabhupada has preached in different ways at different times and Prabhupada was not attached to a particular method of preaching Prabhupada was concerned about the result so I wrote a paper about this when the Journey Home book was criticized so I explained how Prabhupada when Allen Ginsberg said that he was following, he was, he talked about Swami Vivekananda Prabhupada spoke strongly about him Allen Ginsberg was shocked and after that he never became committed he helped in some ways so when Prabhupada met George Harrison Prabhupada's conversation with George Harrison is only given partially in Nila Amrit but if you go to Prabhupada's conversations in the Veda base then George Harrison had been influenced by a huge variety of leaders before him you know he had been exposed to Vivekananda and Yogananda and then he was at that time in touch with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Ravi Shankar not the Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Ravi Shankar is a Taurus so he talked with Prabhupada about all of them and Prabhupada didn't comment much on them, Prabhupada continued teaching about Krishna consciousness so the point here is Prabhupada used different strategies and we shouldn't think that only when we call spiritual teachers as fools and rascals only then we are faithful to Prabhupada no, we are faithful to Prabhupada if we help people come close to Krishna no, Prabhupada you know our identity is not as Mayavadi haters our identity is as Krishna devotees isn't it isn't it, so sometimes some people make a virtue out of condemning others and call that as faithfulness but no, you know we don't talk about so many people have been hurt terribly by the fools and rascals approach, you know Prabhupada when he said that he was very compassionate he was elderly and he could say that and people could take it there are statements of Prabhupada also saying that you know you cannot say these things but then there are many devotees who have done that and so many people are alienated from ISKCON so many many people over a period of time now if you see, now this is something which we generally don't talk about you know almost till 1985 86 ISKCON's success in attracting Hindu congregation was negligible although Prabhupada spent a lot of time in India, you look at how many Indian Prabhupada disciples are there in our movement, how many Indian leaders among Prabhupada disciples are there, very few why? because that confrontationalist approach did not work in India it did not work only so it is just, in India actually our movement started becoming successful in terms of not just numbers but also in terms of quality of devotees, only when you know the devotees started preaching according to their Adhikar so in India people have a particular conception of a sadhu see in the west Prabhupada's confrontationalist approach gelled with the audience over there you know the hippies who were there at that time, they already believed that you know the government is rotten the schools are rotten the politics is rotten everything is rotten and Prabhupada came and gave them philosophical reasons why it is all rotten so you know they already believed they are fools and rascals Prabhupada, I will tell you how philosophically they are fools and rascals and it gelled very nicely but that approach did not work, actually Indian preaching really took off when our preaching, see we can be non-confrontationalist and at the same time be uncompromising we don't have to confront always to be uncompromising we have to present ourselves intelligently and sensitively so the point is primarily that we should be able to fulfill the mission of our spiritual master it is not necessary that because again my point is that Prabhupada preached differently at different times it is not that Prabhupada used one strategy, I mentioned last time about how there are some people who are doing Prabhupada was once asked to come to a Akhada where they were training bodybuilders so when Prabhupada came there so what did Prabhupada say now you could say you are not the body or the soul, why are you wasting your time building up your body Prabhupada said no, there was a Hindi lecture I don't remember which lecture it was but Prabhupada said that so all of you are becoming Kshatriyas, it is a good thing there is a need for Kshatriyas in the society so we are training Brahmins and you are becoming Kshatriyas, it is a very good thing and here you are seeing that here is Hanuman Ji so Hanuman Ji is your ideal it is good, so do you know what Hanuman Ji used to do, he used to take the name Ram so when you are getting up and sitting then say Ram Ram Ram Ram so so Prabhupada did not condemn that he encouraged it but he encouraged it to spiritualize it also so there are different ways in South America when Prabhupada was preaching they said the devotees are very interested in Yoga over here so Prabhupada how should we, Prabhupada said okay, encourage their interest in Yoga and tell them about Bhakti Yoga being the highest Yoga so it is not said every time you have to say all Yogis are Yoga and Yogis are bogus no so Prabhupada used multiple strategies for preaching and we have to see which strategy is successful successful not just in terms of numbers but successful in terms of transforming the hearts of people okay yeah, we will stop with this later so it is said Prabhupada's books were for 10,000 years but many statistics if they have to be changed and certain facts are there which people cannot take well hmm there is no statement in Prabhupada's purports that his books are law books for 10,000 years there is only one reference in one conversation with just 3-4 devotees as witnesses and that statement has been repeated hundreds of times so I am not saying that statement is necessarily false or anything like that I am just saying that if Prabhupada considered it to be such an important thing he would have put it in his purports he has not put it anywhere in his purports it is only that statement of the law books for 10,000 years is only one conversation to a small group of disciples while going in a car so we shouldn't overrate it beyond what it is I am not saying that we should minimize it but just like in a moon landing we don't have to make it bigger than what it is so now Prabhupada was also obviously aware that languages change languages change so languages change means language changes over centuries for example the bible the catholic the christians have a bible board bible what they call it something like the bible rewriting board and at the start of every century they rewrite the bible that means they have records from the 16th century onwards so this verse, its original hebrew is this in the 16th century bible it was written like this 17th century bible it was written like this 18th century bible it was written like this because the words, their meanings change and they have to present it properly so its natural that so what will happen is Prabhupada's books will remain certainly authorities but their meanings will have to be explained by books by subsequent generations so for example Prabhupada uses the word cult quite frequently the cult of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu now ISKCON has retired the word cult from its vocabulary nobody uses the word cult because the word cult has a very bad connotation cult is organized, brainwashes people and makes them do all sorts of terrible things in the name of being spiritual or whatever so there are certain things like that within the next 2-3 decades we will have to retire the word preach also we will have to retire the word preach from our vocabulary we can't use it preach is too preachy preach means when you are preaching to someone that means you are putting yourself on a high pedestal and you are looking down and teaching others so Indranath Maharaj changed the name of his diary from diary of a travelling preacher to diary of a travelling monk so we are using it right now, that is fine but nobody, in the active order we don't use the word preach we use the word share Krishna consciousness or outreach the word preach just has such a strong negative connotation it is the whole idea that you are putting yourself on a high pedestal and looking down at me and telling me what to do so there are words which have certain meanings and those meanings those connotations, if they are negative we will alienate people even before they get to hear from us so this is something which every generation will have to deal with so Prabhupada's books their core content will remain an authority even if Prabhupada had said that his books are law books still law books also change isn't it, law books also change the Indian government has its law books the constitution is there, the constitution has changed so what does it mean law books doesn't mean the law changes but the application of the law changes now the Aram Prabhu was telling me that you know the government the lawyers when they write books on justice nobody has defined what is a fraud because what the judges found that as soon as you define a fraud the human mind is so cunning that it will circumvent the definition, commit a fraud and then prove it is not a fraud so they say a fraud can never be defined, fraud can only be inferred so you can if you do this, this, this it's a fraud I will not do this, this, this but still I will commit a fraud so they say that actually it's a set of inferences by which you determine whether something is a fraud or not so the point is law books can never cover everything no matter how exhaustive they are so law books have to be, we are not saying they have to be changed in the sense that something has to be rejected but their application has to be done according to the time and place circumstances so the authority of the Shri Prabhupada's books is going to be there definitely for 10,000 years but the specifics will change specifics will change these books will have to be explained by other books is it clear? Thank you very much Shri Prabhupada ki Gaur Bhakta Vrinda ki Jai Jai Gaur Premanand.