197 Varnashrama for addressing the evolving needs of devotees -The Monk’s Podcast with Kamalalochan P

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Hare Krishna, Kamalachandru. Welcome to the Monks Podcast. It's been a long cherished desire for me to have you and finally it's worked out.

I remember among our first discussions we had in Miraro temple, you told me how you were introduced to Krishna Consciousness and your journey. It is quite inspiring and since then I have been observing how under your stewardship the Miraro temple has progressed in almost, you could say, all dimensions of Krishna Consciousness. We have had many, many wonderful temples growing but along with the temple you had vigorous youth activities, you had vigorous children's activities.

I think in children's activities, education, dimension for children, the temple is a pioneer and of course personally I've seen how deeply absorbed you are in Shastra and I always appreciate your insightful and candid explanation of scriptures. So, and Bhakti Shastri, Bhakti Vaibhav, even the Sandarbhas which you are teaching. So, Prabhupada said that we need Brahmanas with a Kshatriya spirit.

So, we need teachers as well as managers. So, in many ways I've seen that you have been able to embody that blend in a very effective way. So, thank you very much for joining today and I thought that we could discuss broadly on the topic of how our movement has evolved over the last four, five decades since Prabhupada started it in or established in India and especially in the two, three decades that we have been actively involved in the movement.

So, maybe you could start with your story and how you came to the services that you are doing currently that will give a personal context to the discussion. Actually, I'm very happy that you asked me to join the show. I adore you as one of the intellectuals in our society which is dedicated only to the intellectual world giving a nourishment to the intelligence of our intelligentsia of the moment because if the intelligence is nourished and the soul is nourished because intelligence purposes is the next door neighbor of the soul.

Our movement actually requires some intellectual input otherwise many intelligentsia for society have left the movement and many intelligent people actually they feel undernourished after a few years in Krishna Consciousness. They're doing a very wonderful job, service to the movement, especially Prabhupada. So, it may not be really appreciated in a mass level, definitely the class will appreciate.

In the Bhagavatam when Narada was speaking to Vyasa that you write a book which is so pure that it should be such a way that bhakti should be described in every page, in every verse, in every word. Dharma, Artha, Kaam, Moksha should not be there even a tinge in it. Then Vyasa, he told Narada who is going to read this thing? Then Narada says don't worry, there are some people who are going to read this Bhagavatam and they by experiencing this Bhagavatam they'll experience so much of bliss that others will automatically follow.

The flaws are always very few, you can count in numbers but their experience and their realization, their thoughts are going to be the assets of the future of this movement and I find that you and your endeavors and your writings and this podcast, the first time I'm hearing this word podcast, is going to be an asset for the movement for the future to come. That's what I feel. Coming back to your question of how I came in touch with Krishna Consciousness.

I'm just sorry if I may respond and you're very kind and encouraging that what you said is actually echoes my thoughts and experiences not in that sense that I am doing a lot of intellectual service but it is true that those who are intellectually oriented often they don't get much nourishment and then they go away as you rightly said and we can say that materialistic people are people are just materialistic but even among people who are not practicing bhakti there are some people who are sattva guni but at least in terms of their intellectual analysis and we need to be able to reach out to them so basically the podcast format has become quite popular in the west slowly it's coming to India so originally it was meant to be audio but the podcast format is that two people just sit together generally speaking and have a candid detailed discussion and somehow what has happened is in this format has caught attention among people because it is not scripted because normally when in the media the interview is there then there are very fixed questions and answers so everybody knows it's largely scripted and this is long form it goes another media interview will be 5-10 minutes but this can go for a long time and one of the in those who do podcast expertly one of them say that even the secular world there they say that nobody can actually wear a mask for a two-hour discussion you know 5 minutes 10 minutes 15 minutes you can put on a mask so in that sense the philosophical and the human both come out in these podcasts and basically I started this when the pandemic started when I was traveling across the world I used to give classes but in various parts of the world I was also getting the association of devotees senior devotees with whom I would talk so I thought I'm giving classes virtually let me try to get the associate of devotees also virtually so that's how I that was one of the ways I started the podcast so thank you for your appreciation and a very I would say precise appreciation not that I am doing it but there is a need and I'm I can play some small part in it please continue bro your answer so he asked about now how I came in touch with Krishna consciousness a small brief about I've been born as a mother brahmana so accepting Krishna as God and doing some celebrating some festivals and credit on Krishna was not a new thing but it was more religious the religious side was more but the philosophical side was not very much in our family of course there are many scholars connected to distant relatives of us but they're not teaching and preaching the way the that I would have appreciated so it was in my college when I was studying in marine engineering college in Calcutta was Dharam Prabhu who he was the president of Mayapur temple he had a college program so I just attended the program that is where I felt that the very first statement which he gave in the lecture influenced me a lot very first statement not the entire lecture influenced me a lot that I at that time only decided that I should be connected with this movement and somehow or the other we spread Sanatana Dharma and at that time itself I decided that I would not I might decide I'll become a monk at that time but it took a couple of months to decide I'll become a monk so the very first line what he spoke I still remember I quote practically every other lecture which I gave that is we are all to become happy this word for example happiness here we are trying to become happy and without we enduring miseries are coming nobody wants when happy miseries difficulties are coming without we not wanting it then he interestingly says another statement is that if some course everybody tries to become unhappy so then what happens miseries come happiness comes without you wanting it as much as difficulties come miseries come without you don't wanting it or you not wanting it in the same way happiness will come also without you not wanting it it is very striking it took me so much so that I started reading Prabhupada books Bhagavad Gita I read four to five days because engineering college in India and it's like whether you attend class or don't attend class even if you read something else it's crazy there so it was interesting these five days I read the entire Bhagavad Gita and I understood nothing out of it. You're talking about the concept of destiny and how that struck you so powerfully and then that is a radical concept it almost goes completely against the ethos of the world so no this was a thing which was which struck me so much that I felt what you're doing is a useless labor to become happy because whatever happens in our life especially happiness or misery experiences are predestined. I just contemplated at that time about all the events which happened in my life whether it is very miserable events or good events or happy events most of them especially one of the events which any young boy in India would feel proud of is to crack IIT and get into some premier college.

I still remember that I was not at all qualified for this and it's like what in our college we had before we not only you need to score good in your entrance exams but also so you need to attend interview and I attended the interview and I was not knowing about what this all marine engineering is all about what is about ship shipping etc. I thought in the interview I utterly failed I could not even they asked me a question you're going to be in the ships they showed me a model ship model in Mumbai this happened and later on I come to know the model of the ship is nothing other than the Jaladuta model Jaladuta ship is Shilrao Kalwen. So they asked me which is the front part of the ship which is the back part of the ship I was such a lay person that I could not even recognize what is the front part and what is the back part so just imagine and they took me admitted me in this college so it is all karma.

I remember 10th standard when my father was very upset about my studies whether I'm going to do what I'm going to do he took me to astrology and I was not believing in astrology and all this I told him it's all fake so at the time I remember my astrologer told me that your son will have a job connected to water he'll be traveling then for him ship and all is far away so he told he must be getting a job in the irrigation department irrigation something to with water and he'll be a big officer so he'll be traveling. I thought there's something something is there it is not just everything I do something beyond human intelligence so that's where I started researching in Shilrao Kalwen books and one book which I got in touch with was Chaitanya Charitamrita or teachings a lot when I asked the devotee that you were talking about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu can I get some of his writings what books he has written because I was not knowing Chaitanya Mahaprabhu God and all so he gave me Chaitanya Mahaprabhu wrote only eight verses but about him Prabhupada has written this book then I took that book and after Bhagavad Gita which I could not understand in a single verse of it after sitting in that Bhagavad Gita continuously for four five days it was teachings of Chaitanya just so sweet I was captivated by somehow the many points went directly into my heart I could understand till Prabhupada's writings is so so beautiful in the whole entire Chaitanya Charitamrita people even think it's a complicated book very complex books very difficult but somehow I had more appreciation for teachings a lot Chaitanya than Bhagavad Gita and that is the time I felt if at all there's any truth it is it is by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and I decided after reading teachings of Chaitanya that I should propagate these teachings to the extent whatever I can whatever possible so that is the time I decided to be a monk after reading Chaitanya teachings of Chaitanya nobody told me to join and all these things so it is inspiration by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that's what that is how I I came in touch with this that's what that's amazing so this was which year roughly it was 1993 1993 that is my third year and fourth year of my college I started chanting of course at that time there was a youth program in Calcutta many devotees were taking care there was an Italian and another Italian now at present is Kauntepu who used to be a teacher in Gurukul I used to attend take association of him there's Vidwan Goranga who was a really a great Vidwan and practically I owe today whatever I am and that I owe a lot to him Vidwan Goranga who so much of love and affection he showed and he used to come all the way from temple just to meet me in our hostel and I flourished a lot and at that time of course lot of energy was there so I became a right hand of Aptik Prabhu at that time as vice president and practically Lathiyathra management I was so so it got totally involved into the entire thing of course three more devotees joined in my in my from my college is Kavichandra Prabhu he joined immediately after the after his college Mahidhar Prabhu is he's he joined Meera Road and now Indranath Prabhu he is now the president of Amritsar temple so we four were from that one batch okay so so so you were in your first second year how many time how many years were in college before you decided to join two years I came in touch when I was in third year third and fourth year this is a diamond okay so this was you said 90s roughly sorry I missed the date 93 94 okay and then when did you come to when and how did you come to Meera Road and become the leader here oh it's a story uh I was in only in touch with when I joined merchant navy I was in touch with Vidwan Goranga Prabhu yeah and uh Italian Goranga at that time uh I was only in touch with them on with letters and all at that time there was no email phone and all I used to send a lot of donations to them and it so happened that I came in touch with his grace Atma Tattvapur through his lectures yes series of lectures which was sent to me and I started hearing those lectures still on cassettes at the time I was very much impressed and I met him in in 96 I met him and I told him I want to dedicate myself I want to join your uh your your project of teaching and all these things so he told okay come after one year and then I'm in Udupi I came left my job and then uh was about to go and join him but uh I heard that you know he has left and falling into some kind of seclusion so I had to find a place where to stay then I contacted Madhav Prabhu whom I knew very well he was assisting uh Devamaraj Prabhu now he's Bhakti Rishan Maharaj now okay yes temple and then I met um Madhav Prabhu requested see I want to meet go to Atma Tattvapur then can I stay for a few days then they told no no you cannot stay then Bhakti Rishan Maharaj told me that uh I'm going to Bhaktivanta hospital that was at the time it is going to be open and he was the pioneer who actually made the entire hospital uh he was one of the trustees there and he was guiding how to preach to the doctors through the walkway like that so then um uh Nehru temple is in front you can you come there I knew him just from because I was assisting in his the 1996 centennial he was conducting the all India uh debate competition I was part of the team which went to Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan so in this way I had some some connection with him Madhav Prabhu and Bhakti Rishan Maharaj so then that is how I came to know I had not even known where temple is I just stayed there and uh fortunately it so happened one of my batchmates he had joined this temple so I felt comfortable here with your friends so this is the whole planet then I just have one time I met met Maharaj so let's go about Maharaj and told Maharajji uh where I should go you tell me then he told me Krishna sent you here stay here oh okay so nothing planned just uh spontaneous it happened that's all so I was introduced in 96 and I joined in 98 and so basically we can say that we have seen our movement evolve quite a bit of course we can say that the evolution has started a little earlier than what we joined but I see recently he used an interesting phrasing he said we have ISKCON 1.0, ISKCON 2.0 and ISKCON 3.0 so 1.0 is during Prabhupada's times and Prabhupada was leading directly then and then after Prabhupada departed and when Prabhupada's disciples were the prominent members and the prominent leaders of the movement that's ISKCON 2.0 and now we are moving from 2.0 gradually toward 3.0 where more and more you know Prabhupada's disciples are retiring or leaving the world and more and more the responsibility for leadership is falling on the Prabhupada's grand disciples so somewhere in between but apart from that generational change there has also been a demographic change in the sense that during Prabhupada's times at least in the west almost every member of our movement meant is that they were full-time member even if they were living in the temples and in India if we consider there were two broad categories of members there were the western devotees most of the dedicated followers of Prabhupada during Prabhupada's time were western devotees and they were just they were full-time members and there are life members who were who were in their own way culturally appreciative and dedicated to service but they were not dedicated sadhakas in the way is expected in ISKCON or what we so in one sense we can say these two levels were there the full-time devotees and the life members but over the years what has happened is that the life members they are still there we are cultivating but they are not a very prominent factor in ISKCON's outreach or ISKCON's demographic so we have the congregation which has become the most prominent part of the movement now almost in the west at least more than 95 percent of the devotees are congregation less than maybe three four percent are brahmacharis and ISKCON in India it might be a little more maybe five to ten percent but ninety percent is the congregation and over a period and even I would say in India there was a phase where everybody was encouraged to become full-time devotees like it was in Prabhupada's times but more or less we also have outgrown that phase now that not everybody is going to become full-time devotee and everybody's not going to become brahmachari even if they and even they're going to become gharasa they're not likely to move into the temple and stay in the temple so they are going to have their families their careers and still be dedicated devotees so this this is a significant change in one sense we can say we are in uncharted territory because during Prabhupada's times the life member cultivation was basically just give them some have some talks with them go to their house have have some prasad maybe give them books and give they get the contribution from them and full-time devotees was a complete dedicated sadhana but how to cultivate congregation we don't have a direct precedent for that in the history of our movement itself till now so how so I presume you must also experience this transition and since you have been leading a community so maybe you can share your thoughts about how this transition you have observed it and what does it imply see we should know that our society's name is international society for krishna consciousness the moment you say society it means what it means from a child to old man from a healthy person to a sick person somebody maybe somebody may be a retarded mentally retarded person to a very intelligent panic person in society all kinds of people are there so when you say international society the moment the word society has been used it refers that you will be having all kinds of people connected with momo so when you say society it is going to take a turn or into a society society is not just made up of few 15 20 people who stay in the temple just 15 to 20 people staying around it cannot be called a society like one tree in a in a land cannot be called a garden you say garden you expect your trees your flower trees your mango trees your fruit trees your your some some place for beautification all variety that's called that makes a garden so all varieties of people participating in krishna consciousness that is part of society the very first day i joined then there was an announcement after a sunday program that then then i understood i was thinking what do you mean by that but all our bhaktas here all our devotees here and so it was very difficult for me to understand this term means devotees prasad is here and outsiders prasad is here so this is a very clear-cut terminology that means anybody who is living in the temple is a devotee and anybody who is not living in the temple is outsider um but uh anyhow i somehow i could i i just lived with that after few months uh then i saw those uh who were called as outsiders uh who are the most hard-working in our temple they were the people who are bringing money to our temple the whole janmashtami festival money and uh they are they are day and night were dreaming of having a big temple here and those who are inside they were not so that kind of motivated except few of them so it was a confusion how can you say outside people here it was situation was like that and it was natural everybody accepted that uh because that is the precedence before 90s there are only two categories one is insider and outsider um that's all but you cannot make a society divide the society like insider and outsider like that society means varana and ashrama all kinds of people uh brahmacharis as the vanaprasthas and sannyasis and when prabhupada has said it is a society there will be a natural growth going to happen towards that towards that varnashrama establishment is varnashrama of course how you define varnashrama there are many people are having different different ideologies about it but basically varnashrama means all categories of people who function according to their and their their nature that is called varnashrama isn't it so it is going to happen whether we want it or don't want it it is going to be happening it's going to happen how many uh renunciates chaitanya mahaprabhu had in his during his time tell me hardly you know 6 7 10 12 max you can count on fingers isn't it so society means varnashrama and in that only sannyasis will be very few very few sannyasis you cannot force renunciation on anyone at least for a long period of time it is a natural outcome either of bhakti or a natural outcome of his past karma jai bhai raagya hoga him so to artificially create a a a society of renunciates is not a long-time solution to our movement or any society rather so definitely the maximum number if you're saying comes to number it is going to be definitely it is for sure and it is a fact it is a natural course it is taking its natural course nobody has to uh do anything extra for it like recently i was hearing to a sannyas seminar a seminar given by ralladananda maharaj to the sannyas candidates when i won them very interesting point because many seminars i attend only with some few points it's uh strike your heart and said that to uh for a baby to grow what you're what you're to do then everybody gave different ideas and he told okay very fine but it will just keep the baby healthy to grow just maybe a little grow growth is a nature of uh of of consciousness there are consciousness that growth is there so you just have to keep the baby healthy and the baby grows into a child and youth and this way grows tree also you just keep the tree or the plant healthy and it will grow the same way you keep your yatra healthy it will grow so what is healthy healthy means healthy relationships so if you have healthy relationship with the brahmacharis grahasas vanaprasthas and sannyasis you'll find there automatically growth in all four ashramas will grow all the four varanas will grow and that is what is happening now so we don't have to be worried about anything some people say our movement is diluted because of uh it is congregation centered and all no i don't agree with that it is a natural outcome just because somebody is not eating food in the temple and earning his own food and eating doesn't mean that uh something you are diluting the movement number two uh you may find a devotee congregation devotee coming to the temple once a week serving prasadam just for half an hour one hour you may seem only for the one hour in the temple but for the next six days he may not be in the temple but his emotions are in the temple is of going to the sunday program he may not be uh full time but you have to give value to that also that when he meets his friend he says you know i go to his son sundays there's emotional value connected to that you know i just interrupt you ravindra saruprabhu makes a very nice point he says how the whole concept of congregation development and congregation cultivation developed uh it originated so he says that uh that originally the idea was people join the temple or they don't join the temple so in america when they would have indians coming sometimes devotees would preach quite forcefully you know this material world is a place of distress and should just give it up and join the temple and indians who had gone from india to america they had basically gone for better prospects materially they had absolutely very few of them had the intention of uh renouncing their world and family and soon after a few meetings the devotees understood at least the devotees thought that these are not going to become serious devotees they are not serious people so they started neglecting them they started neglecting them and they found that week after week they were coming although the devotees would pay no attention because they thought they're not let's put some time on other people so he said that because they were coming so regularly if some person if some of their relatives if some person on the street had asked them do you which group do you belong to or are you connected with any religious groups they said we are hare krishnas we are scorned devotees but he said if somebody had asked us we would have said they are not scorned devotees so basically we i had a podcast with uh madhavan and prabhu from abdhakrishna kathamruth bindu so on this topic of who is a member of ISKCON so it is it is it is almost like a extendable term we can't reduce it to one category so as you what you're saying that just because somebody is have is a grasta staying outside and having their own job and other things they can still be very dedicated devotees so yes true as you see uh one more point which i remember is uh when we start a uh this conscious movement in initial states it was only sankirtan i was his name is bhakti ragas by mara he was talking about the four levels of movements four movements within ISKCON krishna consciousness movement the first moment he said was sankirtan movement when like devotees go out for distribution and in this way the sankirtan movement is and why we are doing sankirtan whom are we distributing books what is the purpose the they read them and become devotees now gradually they become devotees seeing the harinam sankirtan seeing the devotee is very happy and very loving and uh they're seeing the books reading the book to become devotees they start chanting hare krishna they come to our programs to hear lectures now we say in the lectures chants 16 rounds follow for a period of time four or five years now they start taking krishna conscious seriously and uh they chant 16 rounds now for example if 100 people are doing that and their family and their children you cannot accommodate in the temple now now they want initiation so after sankirtan movement now you have initiation movement the second moment is the initiation so in the initiation moment uh when the number of devotees increase naturally they would like to uh in involve influential people and some funds also start flowing they say that we want a temple because we want to be established in the in the society as a uh as a recognized because and actually they bring some pride because when you go that goes outside uh he's chanting hare krishna and uh he's his pan devotee and his boss asked him where is your temple naturally in india people don't ask where is your temple and they feel there's a requirement of a temple so they all get together then start building a temple that's called temple construction movement so initiation movement and temple construction movement first is sankirtan movement and there is a initiation movement and there is a temple construction movement so once the temple is built everything is going on nicely more and more people are coming and this congregation or initiated devotees even the brahmacharis uh now they are come to the age of 40 45 50 they are now they feel that i need to immerse engross myself in bhagavatam i want to do some indepth study i want to chant now more rounds uh but the city life and even in the city also the job which they have the business which they are not allowing them to do so they want a simpler life whether it be the city or in a farm where it may be they want to get more time now they want to become vanaprasthas uh so there starts the varnashrama movement i still remember when i joined is on nira road 1997 uh we made five six brahmacharis were having teams one two two brahmacharis and we're going to collect for i still remember 97 99 3 4 4 5 years we used to go shop to shop to collect money somebody used to give 11 rupees somebody's 200 rupees somebody 100 rupees uh if somebody used to if somebody gives 500 rupees that was a big thing but as the time went by now janmashtami collection in 2002 or 2003 in four five years i had i did not go out and none of the brahmacharis went except two of them uh that to just to meet uh big donors i just had a meeting in the congregation everybody put targets somebody 50 000 somebody one lakh like that we could we could do the janmashtami and save money for the so just see an evolution has happened so as a brahmachari i just had to be in the temple and motivate the congregation to go but in the very uh first a few days i myself had to go and i remember but as a day i joined uh after that every day i used to go for nagar sankirtan it to brahmachari sometime i alone like that and gradually brahmacharis came now within the next five years uh the congregation were pressing me roji we're not going for another sankirtan fine so we just see how the the sankirtan movement becomes initiation movement and then by 2015 in mira road the congregation collected money and then build a temple they only collected the money the ladies went door to door and build a temple they wanted it it is not that we are pushing you know we i had to build a temple point like no they wanted it so they built a temple now and after six seven years uh uh you group of senior devotees came to know you're traveling so much now we want to get bhagavatam from my book why don't you do bhakti vaibhava bhakti vaibhava bhakti shastri we all do but we want to do in-depth study we want to learn shlokas oh this is all because of their 20 years of hard work for krishna which made them think that now i want to engross myself in shiva's bhagavatam i want to live a more simpler life i want to do sadhana so there is evolution and ultimately it leads to varnashrama movement somehow this varnashrama movement has been highly misunderstood as antagonistic to pure devotion and service okay actually sorry if i may interrupt you just let's share a few thoughts about what you said about these four stages yeah so what i i had not thought about it in this in these terms but what it struck me is that like you mentioned about teaching like you're not going out uh to raise funds initially and that other the other you don't have to go out directly so it struck me that i have seen some devotees with all due respects to them they say that if you are not going out in the streets what preaching are you doing what is the use of what is the use of what you are doing now this is what we are meant to do well it is it is what we are meant to do but ultimately okay after we go out and do sankirtan when people come to the temple there are there are so many other ways in which they need to be nourished also so the temple has to be maintained and then as you said that the teaching education has to be done so it we could we could get caught completely in one of these slots it's not that sankirtan is not important all of them are are we could say are important in their own place but if we reduce our movement to only one then it could become a problem i had a talk with vaiseshika prabhu very good podcast so he is he's so focused on book distribution and he is inspiring the world all over devotees for book distribution but at the same time he has a very systematic plan for cultivating devotees and in america one of the most i would say flourishing communities is is the silicon valley community so we could say that each of these stages has its importance but we can't fix it only on one stage like say if we focus only on temple construction and then we neglect harinam we neglect cultivating devotees we then it could be a problem so if i understand right what you are saying is that in many ways as we are becoming a congregation based movement we have gone through the first three stages or or not we have gone a significant number of our devotees have gone through the first three stages there will always be devotees in the first three stages no doubt and they also need to be taken care of but we could say that more or less there is already something of a system in place to take care of them that book distribution is going to happen harinam is going to happen we also have devotees who are going to raise funds and of course if people come they will be cultivated then they will get initiated so we cannot we cannot neglect these areas but at the same time we cannot let all our energy be spent only on these areas am i articulating it do you properly what if i understood what you said yeah you're you're you're perfect but just to add more thing to that in a 100 rupee note you have 75 rupees also 50 rupees also 25 rupees also so just because we have reached the fourth stage of ashram that doesn't mean others are neglected we are inclusive with that how i'll tell you book distribution now when i i just tell one one day of experience of distribution one devotee told me you go there i distributed 300 books in one sunday this sunday i'm not i'm going to go to shirdi for book distribution why don't you go there lead the party so seven eight we took a vehicle went all the way to iraq station and then i expected last time if we could do 300 books in one day i would do more because now i am i'm somebody better so i went since morning eight o'clock till evening five thirty six o'clock two books went okay with i'm sure i'm i'm fused totally fused then what i did i removed all the books which was on the table i was tired i sat on the table and i kept all the books aside the cartoons aside and i had rolled out about this now this day is gone let me do a small small gimmick now let me try pray to krishna and in mumbai as the local trains come in the evening lots of whole day i've been watching them in six thirty seven o'clock just people are just going then at a small mic then what i did was i sat on the table where the book supposed to be kept and started giving a lecture on bhagavad gita and really okay few people started and more few people by the time half an hour went by there were at least three four four hundred people just around the entire thing that's hearing to what i'm speaking three four hundred people yes where was this exactly it was near our station when the part of that is that the railway crossing where all the people get down and go i sat on the table i was giving a class yeah after that half an hour i saw so many are there i thought let me hit the hammer now i told whatever i'm speaking this is in this book you know 400 books went within half an hour so somebody may say you did not distribute books but i distributed books according to my nature what is my nature is to speak i'm not a seller i cannot go and sell so this is where varanashrama comes into picture means you engage a devotee according to your nature somebody distribute books according to his nature somebody's like a a good good marketing person they can just say do this yoga everything is about take this now he sells and takes the money and somebody would just give a lecture and then uh do a thing and somebody would say see if you take this thing this is good like chatriya can do somebody does it different different ways so book distribution nagarjuna kirtan the core aspects of our philosophy is not restricted doesn't stop because you are establishing either the increase rather it will become more effectively done because you are engaging people according to their nature that's amazing experience you you really have a charismatic pull because at that place and where people are so busy rushing around to get so many people to come but the point is well taken that you could do book distribution not just by talking one to one people but by giving a talk which inspires people amazing so now you give the example of hundred rupee includes other so what you're saying is if we engage devotees according to their nature then then all the other things will also happen so those who are inspired will do harinam those are in those who are that that inclination that subhava will do harinam those will fundraising will done and then the cultivation for initiation will also happen yes okay so you were mentioning earlier that the idea of an ashram is misunderstood i i interrupted you at that time you would like to means go to the forum this is the biggest some false propaganda which has happened it is not that varna ashrama vibhagashaha how it happens it happens because of one's nature um una is the main thing una means the modes of nature so if you are able to engage a person according to one's modes of nature in krishna's service that is our ashram like you have a young brahmachari joining his farm he joins ashram for first one or two years because he's totally surrendered and sold out to his guru he would do anything in the toilet class very good but how many do you think would be like that and how long that person would be like that no he'll be happy when he is given seva or service according to his nature uh so to identify a person according to his nature and engaging them that is actually varna you cannot force everybody just to be a lifelong celibate if somebody is having the karma of being a lifelong celibate you cannot force him to get married and if somebody has a vaishya mentality you cannot say you know you just be a brahmana be very humble and do you cannot do that even though one is a gyani the modes of nature are going to force him to do a particular thing which nikram kim karishati how is it going to happen so bhagavad gita is preached around the world uh that uh principles we have to propagate and practice it and that can only happen when we call our self as a society and society means varnashrama there's there's no society without varnashrama that that is what is the thing and a misunderstanding is this the somehow when i speak of varnashrama many people say oh he's going to take us to some farm and he's going to make us uh plow the field it is not that it is many things yeah you know what happens is again to echo your thoughts or reiterate there are there are like one of the challenges in communication is that terms don't always have objective meanings that there is a particular term when i am using it i have particular meaning in mind and when you you when somebody else you hears it or uses it they have another meaning in mind so if we look at it from the perspective of uh the bhagavad gita it's quite clear that varnashrama means engagement as you said according to subhava and krishna says you cannot give up your subhava in fact there are only two verses in the gita which krishna repeats twice one is and the other is that you just cannot work not in cannot not work according to your nature so this brings us to yesterday again to elaborate on earlier point you made that in the past poona poona chandra maharaj also makes this point in his unspoken obstacles to devotional service that in the past we we thought that surrender means that rejecting our nature that our nature is just the body you are not the body so you're you're not your body body the nature also and you should just do what you're told to do but that is extremely difficult and then what happens is because of that many times there is uh there is some there is a higher taste which comes by the practice of bhakti so which is uh we could say higher spiritual taste higher bhakti taste we can say but now this is my terminology maybe there is some shastric terminology you might come to i feel that there is also some kind of a higher dharmic taste which comes when we act according to our dharma and so if uh if somebody is a painter they really get immense joy in painting somebody is is is a musician or some whatever people have their particular interests attractions and they get some taste in that and what happens is for us to stay on the path of virtue we also need this taste because that higher bhakti taste takes a good amount of time to come we'll need a significant amount of purification so to sustain us on that journey this higher dharmic taste is also required and we can say if we are deprived of that taste sometimes that leads to so much dissatisfaction so much distress that we can't even pursue the higher bhakti taste that because we are still we may say theoretically i'm not the body and the soul but even krishna i am perceiving through my body mind machine only so if my body mind machine is totally disharmonious then it will be very difficult to pursue krishna also so so that definition of surrender that reject your nature that is the side is the evidence of your surrender that has alienated i feel a lot of devotees and it has made bhakti more difficult than it needs to be true um it should be an outcome of your sadhana outcome of your realization it cannot be enforced now when we say we are a society there are different kinds of people different natures if you don't recognize it then we are actually pitching my philosophy mayavad means see everything as one no there is variegatedness there is a child who can be a far more devotee than a old man so but he will do devotion according to his nature sorry bro i'm just amazed by this insight generally we think of mayavad as considering the spiritual reality to be like a amorphous oneness but we can say that even at the material reality if we equate it as a oneness that is also in one sense mayavad because the essence of mayavad is not whether we are talking about a spiritual or the material it is that we are rejecting variety rejecting personality rejecting individuality that's an amazing insight yeah thank you i just appreciate that yeah oh in this way when you say a society probably this is what society international society it's a very important word in the entire sentence or the phrase called international society if a person is socially satisfied then he will be happily practicing krishna consciousness everybody wants a society like devotees they want society of devotees and within that devotees all devotees are not the same nature or same mentality so if they prophesied birds are the same feather flock together so and even this has been described that when bhakta samrishnu he said that one has to associate the devotees but how what kind of devotees those who are sajati i mean those who have got same mentality and same nature so it is very important to recognize nature if you don't recognize nature then uh how will you uh make people very happy in krishna consciousness even till today for example if kamalo chandas is not given opportunity to teach a consciousness allowed to speak uh he'll not stay long in this movement it's a fact because it's my nature to speak and teach if a singer is not allowed to sing i mean uh then he will not stay in the moment for long most of the devotees whom we lost normal is just because they were not properly engaged so it's so this is a this is a very good point because sometimes when somebody leaves we sometimes say that the person is just not sincere enough not serious enough just fell into maya but to some extent it is also we also need to take responsibility that maybe we didn't engage them properly and that's how they left that's why they left yes that's true bro so sorry so you're talking broadly about varanashram and engaging the essence of varanashram is engaging people according to their subhava yeah so um so to some extent do you see this already happening in terms of uh in our movement of how we engage devotees i can say that myself as a brahmachari you know uh over the years i by krishna's mercy i have found space i can say that 20 years ago if i had tried to do a podcast like this since what are you doing wasting your time and wasting somebody else's time just go and do some do something tangible you know go ahead distribute some books or as i said collect some uh collect some lakshmi for krishna so in one sense that providing devotees space for their service it has started happening to some extent but uh what are your thoughts about this see as i told in a few minutes back it has to happen because it is a society and it has to happen it will happen but how quickly it will happen is dependent on our leaders understanding the need of establishing a need of engaging people with the diverse mentality other leaders understand and create a healthy atmosphere as i told when you make the baby or keep a baby in a healthy atmosphere the baby automatically grows the whole purpose or the whole uh endeavors of all our leaders should be to keep healthy atmosphere for people to exhibit their talent they are according to their nature and then progress in krishna consciousness every endeavor to protect sanatana dharma propagates sanatana dharma has to be appreciated has to be supported so that is why we require kshatriyas in the movement kshatriyas are those who are protectors when they say okay you want to do this okay this is the field you do it so what is happening is when you talk about an idea of this is how we can propagate dharma so that idea is coming according to his nature and that idea has to be supported has to be encouraged uh propose a different laws for different folks and for what is the different lore lore means the different kinds of folks uh you have uh different different presentation different okay different kind of presentation okay different kind of ways uh you you present krishna consciousness them and every idea to protect samatha dharma every endeavor protects not to connect people to krishna has to be supported has to be uh appreciated uh we should never criticize and try to subdue somebody's efforts to propagate krishna consciousness because he is doing his efforts he's putting his efforts and his ideas are according to his nature and if somebody is willing to support and or supporting and propagating and protecting sanatana dharma it has to be supported it has to be encouraged i was just deliberating on this point that what you mentioned earlier that if we don't do this we will actually drive devotees away so it is so now uh two things come in mind that uh how do we help people understand their nature and to some extent i have encountered devotees uh who were who had kids who i mean devotees were children who grew up in gurukuls and they were told i know two devotees actually were told that you are a brahmana and all day they were meant to memorize verses and these kids said that this was like the most miserable time of our life and they said we basically i can say that i have a mentality i like to do things and i like to earn and i like to share so there is this possibility of misdiagnosing also so so my thoughts i'll share basically instead of in understanding nature maybe it is not today as important to like class classify people into these four categories as to basically find how best they can serve so the principle is not just the categorization but the compatible engagement and within the within the ambit of services that are there in the movement within their interests where we can find there where we can find an engagement for them that would be a contemporary application of vanashram does that make sense to you ah yes uh definitely but as the movement grows the society grows then uh we have to categorize okay now for example you have a brahmana how would you categorize a very important question how do you categorize uh here it is my own perception it can be uh debated upon there are three number one is birth number two is his birth chart which rashi all rashis are there the rashis also have a brahmanakshati number three is interest all the three has to be taken in consideration if these three things are not taken into consideration if you just see only the interest then uh if you don't see his rashi nature so as i've told for now as you mentioned contemporary thing what is seen is only nature and interest but as we evolve with the society when we uh then you have to see uh his birth chart and then see the rashi images astrology comes into picture there and i now find our movement is now progressing in the direction where many uh devotee astrologers very good devotee astrologers are really giving good advice and um uh i find some devotees my center some devotees call this they were really happy many families which were about to be uh broken up uh because of some guidance they they they were they became okay um so this that is how this this comes plays a role and as we go further when we refine the ashrama when we rectify the ashramas the next generations in the next to next maybe after three or four generations then you because the garbhadana sanskaras then you have a refined way of trying to find out the birth acquired birth also comes into the criteria of deciding once for an ashrama which is not going to happen today you cannot just say okay he's born in this family doesn't happen it'll take time because uh our birth many western countries or even in india also uh garbhadan sanskar has not been done and a lot of varanas have come so like even when you or take in western countries they are interested in keeping a dog in their house so when they buy a dog they see the pedigree they see the pedigree so when you want to get a dog in your house you see the pedigree why not you see the pedigree of a girl who is going to come to your house okay it's a uh it's a different discussion altogether uh it takes time so sanskars now many grahasthas in our movement uh they are taking guidance from very uh experienced grahasthas who are advising them how to do the garbhadan sanskar and over a period of time when you work on it it is going to happen see as we are developing a healthy society and the society grows into a more matured society it is going to happen today or tomorrow day after tomorrow it's going to happen so all the three considerations and speaking these three points uh and deciding a nature uh after uh speaking to many people in sri sampradaya and madhva sampradaya who are very very much fixed up in their philosophy of asianism and also they are very accomplished scholars uh hearing to them speaking to them my conclusion is all the three the interest and the birth chart in three the birth itself and interest is what we see now like you say contemporary but we cannot be just uh be happy with that particular thing and say that's all no we have to develop into seeing the astrological aspects you know what rashi belongs to there may be a brahmana by birth also by nature but his chart shows the rashi shudra rashi so he'll be more interested in singing than chanting shlokas because singing is actually uh more shudrai so in varnashrama we have the designated shudra as lowest highest brahmana highest it is not like that it's nature in no nature is higher no nature is lower this is where we do the first mistake that shudra is lower brahmana is higher there's no lower and higher it is nature according to one's nature one acts one does so this is what is just a minute bro this is a very striking point i mean you know there are so many points you have made i feel this this itself could be entirely different podcast on its own about how to determine how to determine varna in today's world and uh maybe we can have a podcast on that in the future but right now just this point that often when the varnas are presented as hierarchical then they become are presented so you can say only as hierarchical then they become on one side there is always a possibility that some people will exploit the others but even if there is no exploitation there is a visceral negative reaction because you know this it seems discriminatory so so so what you are saying is from the individual's perspective say for example if somebody is a vaisya that vaisya will not not actually feel that the brahmanical duty is better for that person that is the best so when we are saying that from the hierarchical perspective in one sense it is true that okay somebody is more inclined for when brahmanical person may be more inclined for spiritual knowledge and spirituality but in terms of the worldly from the world's perspective this is more of more of compatibility than hierarchy in that sense you are saying that there is not higher or lower am i understanding right yes that is from one's perspective also even from the spiritual perspective also if you see there may be a brahmana who is very scholarly there may be a shudra who is not so scholarly but that shudra may have more attachment for krishna than the brahmana who is a scholar so one's spiritual uh interest is also not dependent on one word varna and ashrama there may be a sanyasi who is a perfect vairagi following perfect dharma of a sanyas but there is a small kid who has more attachment for krishna than that sanyasi so in this way varna and ashrama cannot decide the criteria of one's advancement in devotional service so just because somebody is a brahmana and more scholarly and somebody is interested in worshiping the deity ultimately what matters is attachment for krishna that is the measurement of one's vaishnavism or one vaishnavata so this is how we should see that just because somebody is a brahmana somebody is a vaisya some brahmana may be thinking of how much dakshina i will get by doing this yagya or puja though he is a devotee and all there may be a vaisya who is thinking of how to run the govinda so that temple will be built yeah i appreciate how you bring uh such vivid contrasts that drive home the point so emphatically so both are thinking of money but one is doing it according to their varna and one is actually not in one sense the the brahmana thinking about dakshina is uh is actually going according and not so much according to their swabhavan that they'll be doing a disservice a little bit over there more than a little bit so so so actually the earlier point also which you mentioned in the pralad bhagavatam is quite clear about this you know like varsalya viparadvishada gunai tadarvindanabha that a brahmana who is turned away from krishna cannot deliver himself whereas even a swapacha who is devoted to krishna can deliver the entire dynasty so so then the purpose of varanashram if we if we think of this it is not so much to create a hierarchy as to provide engagement to people yes yes but then there is there does seem to be an implicit sense of hierarchy because brahmanas are highly respected kshatriyas they are highly respected in fact we also have kshatriyas the world will respect somebody who has political power but those who have political power respect the brahmanas and we can clearly see that there is a hierarchy in the level of respect offered to people so doesn't that signify that the brahman varna is considered higher and other varnas are considered lower i'll give you a small example for this when navabhushansha came to meet sanatana goswami so now uh sanatana goswami stood up welcomed him and gave him a higher seat in front of sanatana goswami navabhushansha is nobody there in the purpose is sanatana goswami saw navabhushansha because the king is a representative of krishna and he's uh he quotes the verse and says wherever you find some energy and splendor you should see as a energy of krishna so these varna and ashramas especially varanas when you're talking about this what the brahmanical energy is flowing through a particular conditioned soul a kshatra energy is flowing through a particular conditioned soul a shudra is also some energy flowing through a conditioned soul it's all krishna's energies flowing through these different souls so in this way uh there is no question of any difference in hierarchy even in the respect i come from a village definitely belonging to a brahman family everybody respects in telugu language we say that introspectfully garu garu means you're a respectful person um though somebody belonged to a vaishnava vaishya community my grandfather used to respect them as garu means respectful even shudras they were also respected everybody had mutual respect among each other i have seen it with my eyes in my childhood i still remember in our house of course now it's all gone all the properties and things are gone there are 20 families residing in our house in our in our farm village for five six generations they have been with our family working in their fields but everybody was happy and very respected this mutual respect even what to speak of anything even the recent pastimes i've heard they would call driver i'm just telling remnants of the driver sab sab means you know is a officer yeah isn't it though uh you may say a driver is not a driver no driver sab it is a usage in even in india in many places so uh it is not that uh there was only respect unidirectionally flowing up there was a mutual respect mutual love interest once there was a one lady who used to sell vegetables to her in the house my grandmother used to bargain and one day she became very upset with vegetable lady because my grandmother was very much good in bargaining we used to give rice she gives vegetables that's the barter system as a child i observed once she became so upset and then she said this is a shudra lady from in village then uh she just left leaving the fruits i don't want you take your fruits you get your child i am going then my grandmother ran behind that girl see you know i i i'll be i i'll get the sin of making you cry please come i'll get the sin so people are afraid of um sinning uh if they disrespected somebody they made somebody cry so it is very subtle this is the culture is very subtle externally you may find a brahmana going and shudra is paying obeisances and uh but actually in the mind the brahmana pays obeisances he feels how can i run the uh temple without uh or run the fields without that person cleaning and working in my in the garden so there is a mutual respect uh it is not what is being presented uh by the british uh varnashrama as being presented by the british that is the problem so okay then there are so many points which are coming in and i'm wondering which direction to take this now so the thing is that i also noticed this when i used to go to villages the culture of respect was there now there might be a hierarchy was the hierarchy might be there like there's somebody like even nobody other boss and a servant but that does not mean the boss would disrespect or exploit the servant the boss would also take care of the to some extent we could say that this this notion that any kind of social stratification is uh is meant for discrimination exploitation that is that is like that is a very leftist view of the world that is left always is against hierarchy and even in the west there was there were hierarchies which were exploitative and there are many hierarchies not exploitative also so the idea is that so so this way of looking at the world has become quite mainstream uh in terms of society that's why varna should like i was talking with devote some devotees in the west and they said that one of their concerns with varanashram is that it can be very easily equated with the caste system and in the west the caste system is considered to be such a great social evil from india that if we as a movement start saying that we if if people misunderstand or misrepresent what we are saying and they say that is khan wants to establish the caste system all over the world uh that could devastate our outreach our reputation our public perception so but what you are saying is that uh that this the caste system as this there might have been some there was some discrimination also but the purpose of an ashram is not to create a hierarchy where one will be one will be disrespected by the other or exploited by the other it is basically to everybody is respected for the contribution that they are making so there is a difference between varna and jati yeah this is generally we don't do much yeah we don't use the jati much in our movement and that's why we equate varna with jati sometimes yeah jati is different varna is different we are talking about varanashrama we are not talking about jatiwadi jatiwadi is different that's why jatiwadi is the work of the british what they who made the uh caste census it was done by the british so that they can fight among each other even still it's continuing it's a big uh game plan by the british who created the leftist in this thing in our country in this country from here to british they paid endologists they paid translators to depict this uh country as a poor country as a country where uh social evils are prevalent even till today when you when you go to some places like india it is like that nothing they think everybody's on the street everybody's just a kid who's just crying and and then has got some dripping nose and has no food to eat i never saw anywhere anything like that that's that's so true so we can say that we as a movement uh first of all for our own devotees we need to engage them and then we could say this could also apply to the broader community broader world also you know in the west uh i was on temple so they use two words they use the word congregation and the community and the use of congregation is more or less committed grasta devotees and community is the broader broader society who is uh who is of interest to us and who has some interest in us they may they may be our well-wishers they're basically favorable so so we could we could say that this principle of compatible engagement is something at least with respect to devotees doing sevas in the temple we need to start with that yes yes so do you see this in one sense i had asked this question already and you said without doing this we cannot we will not be able to sustain our movement so there are two things now one is from the institutional leadership perspective that they need to provide devotees the space and that is sometimes difficult because the leaders also have a lot of pressure from their leaders to achieve certain goals to achieve certain targets and even if they want to you know they also need manpower or you could say devotee power human power human resources to meet those goals so one is the one is the perspective from the leaders so any thoughts on this that what we how can we go about or how do we deal with this challenge see shilpa always said that uh i was attending one of the gbc college seminars that one should not a leader should not kill the enthusiasm the spirit to serve krishna they should be through the fire should always go so that is the leader's job and for that uh he has to the leader has to uh do whatever it requires to be done if he cannot he handled the person to another do that uh we our service as a leader is to engage people in krishna service and we cannot we cannot engage some people then that handle the person to somebody else that can be engaged so projects are built not by manpower or money power projects are built by enthusiastic participation of devotees i know a person who has a lot of money who wants to build a temple you tell where i can i told where are the devotees who who has the enthusiasm to build a temple even if you have about 50 families who feel that enthusiasm you want to build a temple all your money is worthwhile otherwise there are so many temples uh even in vrindavan there's so many temples not even a single kaka goes there so so now uh projects are built not because of you have 50 people out of 50 people how many are enthusiastic four people are enough if they're enthusiastic you can have projects so uh don't rely on numbers rely on the enthusiasm uh happily enthusiastic and happily participating devotees that's the i mean projects will happen i i there was one devotee many years back who came uh to join a temple he was impressed by my lecture but he was very intellectual and he was he was scientific thing oriented and i sent him to bi he told i cannot engage you uh you are having some sanskrit kind of thing orientation thing then i can engage you in uh in shastic studies and all these things but you have a bi kind of mentality so this has to be learned by our leaders this is called mature leadership if somebody is not really uh you're not able to groom and be happy in your in your in your ideology in your thing then ask you to go somewhere else and then happily engage this is called uh leadership uh collective leadership it's not my project your project it is shlopavapas project all projecters shlopavapas projects and this way uh we should encourage if we had uh good network among leadership to many more lot of uh ramachari manpower at least i would say they've been retained a lot they've been retained a lot because of lack of network among leadership what happens one leader has a particular vision and somebody doesn't fit into that then uh he is considered that he's useless no he's not there may be some project maybe maybe you're more useful there uh he may be more happy he was just there you should encourage okay why don't you go and serve that nice deal be happy of course it is happening now because uh leaders are more connected these days especially in india earlier it was not and they were compartmentalized now uh there is a firm where people discuss opportunities of going from one place to the projects individual projects have been uh encouraged even certain projects which are which cannot be put within the organizational framework respond uh that also been encouraged so in this way as i told as a society we are maturing we don't have to be uh worried about we are diluting we are maturing that's what i would say beautiful so the first point is that that it's like if i can't engage you that doesn't mean that you are devotionally useless my project it's not possible for me to engage but there will be other projects which can be found out and maybe as you said if there's networking then you can uh then we can ourselves connect somebody with some connected with somebody else i think that also requires a non-possessive mentality in one sense because it is again with the numbers game that oh you know i made this person a devotee and then if this person is going away somewhere else then that person will not come in my track record of how many people i brought to for initiation or i made into devotees or whatever so i i gave an example many years back when somebody told oh yeah i made him a devotee you know he's leaving and going there uh to another group and they told it is like a cook saying i made the cook i made all the dishes i have to eat so like that okay so that's true and of course i would say that possessive is not always bad also it can be but in one sense the possessive mentality what might seem as a possessive mentality could also be a protective mentality that maybe you know this devotee goes over there who will take care of that devotee or whatever but if there is good networking then it is definitely possible definitely when a daughter is being given uh to another family in marriage uh in the vivaha definitely the father of the daughter sees whether that person is capable of taking care of my daughter or not so that has to be done um oh that's a beautiful example again i i have appreciated how vivid vivid and potent examples you give so uh to some extent i would say that uh this also is happening but it's not so happening so organically so that so naturally but it's like if somebody has some specific talent then it's relatively easier okay you know you have this talent you you you get training from this person and then that uh that works out quite well so that last part you said we are maturing not diluting and that's a beautiful point so engaging people according to nature it is not diluting the principle that the that there should be obedience and adherence rather it is recognizing that the important point is not obedience but the important point is actually helping people grow and engaging them in such a way that they will they can flourish in bhakti that's so so good overall what i also noticed is that that after a certain number of years practicing bhakti now we start when i do these podcasts sometimes i we generally ask this question what uh brought how did you come to krishna consciousness but there's other question we rarely ask what keeps you in krishna consciousness because you know there are so many reasons why a person may get frustrated disheartened and even lose faith may not lose faith in krishna but lose faith in other things to connect with krishna so one of the things which will keep us is if we have this engagement and then the higher taste that comes to engagement so just maybe a couple of questions and then we'll stop i mean maybe i can have future podcasts also now i do see to some extent at least a brahminical engagement is being encouraged you know bhurjan pro started the m i v i h e and then m i h e started and then many other educational forums have started and devotees who want to study and devotees who want to teach both are getting some forums by which they can develop that and while at a basic level everybody needs to have some knowledge of philosophy but there are some who will who will want that more who will want that more and more so then they need to be facilitated so from a devotee's perspective so we talked from i earlier talked from the leader's perspective so that leaders need to network better and then responsibly hand over some people to one people whom they can't engage to somebody else now from the individual's perspective how does one decide whether actually this service is not compatible for me or is it just because the mind is always restless and the mind will always find some reason to complain so when is when is one's dissatisfaction due to incompatible engagement or when is it just due to because of the fickle nature of the mind so when should i do to summarize this when should a devotee think that okay now i have to i have to branch out and explore for myself some other service i cannot continue continue this any thoughts on this so that is when ashrama comes in the picture when the person is not fixed up in a proper ashrama then his varna becomes very difficult he thinks he attributes all the difficulties what is having to the work what he's doing so ashrama has to be fixed up for that and now you have brahmachari one of the sanyas suppose he's not very happy as a in a family then how can he do his work properly so this is where we have to refine the ashrama dharma and ashrama dharma is very nicely established then varna's will automatically manifest themselves and he can be he'll automatically fit into that see um the fickle nature of a person is because of he not being happy somewhere else like sometimes you find in the roof there is water pouring from here but the cause of the leak is somewhere else it is not just here the same way when you find a person is fickle you have to find out it is his his nature his his position of being fickle or his nature of being fickle has a solution somewhere else this is where we need to talk to him more about and find out what is his chart and all these things and there should be an astrological advice taken certain things we cannot see by our naked eyes certain things can only be seen through his chart so astrology plays an important role in trying to find out what is undergoing now depending on a person should give an advice when the advice is given to him he acts in the advice he rectifies himself so uh uh here it is astrology plays important role that is what i would like to say now this is actually maybe astrology is something which we can discuss more separately with respect to astrology i have studied a little bit i won't say that i'll study in detail what i find is that there are two extremes with respect to astrology also one is that the skeptical attitude which rejects it completely as it doesn't not that necessarily as devotees will say that it's superstitious uh non people who don't have any faith in shastra they may say superstitious but devotees may say that oh today astrologers are not good and it doesn't work and things like that maybe skeptical but the other extreme is that astrology can sometimes become like a replacement for one's intelligence so astrology can become another excuse for not taking responsibility for one's life ultimately we cannot if if i if i understand what you're saying rightly also that you know astrology is an important resource for us to take responsible decisions we cannot we cannot make the astrologer like another another version of our diksha guru that your word is the absolute authority and i'll follow it so that's for example i'll give a small example for example we are going to yatra i'm going to badri yatra uh when we go to badri yatra or any yatra we see some uh weather forecast and we see what is the weather get some guidance on the internet and we prepare ourselves so uh if we are able to get some information which we cannot directly perceive from a naked eye and get some from source by which we can act accordingly what is wrong in that so this is where astrology comes into picture hmm that's like that yeah so weather forecasting for example there are certain things which are happening yeah which are which are beyond our control for a particular period of time this is going to happen it's going to happen so he's he's okay this is my karma uh to understand all these things are a point of my karma so i should not be disturbed is it not what bhagavad gita tells us otherwise when in madras the miseries come they attribute this business to somebody else it is because of her i am suffering it's because of him i am suffering no in the seventh hour the shen is dancing now that's the reason so it's your karma it makes a person if not self-realized bring him to an understanding that there is a higher controller who is actually giving you these these miseries or this happiness is whatever it is that is why if you don't have a good astrologer rejecting astrology is not a solution to find a proper person or to train a proper person or in the future devotees who have that karma of taking up astrology guiding people especially grasses in their family matters uh that has to be a part of it's a part of the society it's part of a rush part of a rasma is a part of uh every uh every village you know in our country my grandfather would not uh go to the field and so i see without astrologers permission uh it is not it's a science that doesn't mean okay uh he has he has told that is why i i don't ever do anything it doesn't work like that it is guidance it is mythological guidance for this weather in the same way the family weather is physiological guidance for the family weather condition also it's beautiful so what has happened is if i understand uh when you're speaking this it when you're talking about your your childhood or upgrading experiences uh maybe we could explore that also in the future a little bit more but it seems that when the elements of traditional culture are taken in isolation then they can be easily misunderstood and even misapplied so whether it is like we look at one ashram and we take it isolation and equated caste system we take up as to take astrology and take it isolation oh it is going to tell me about the future so let me rely on it and neglect everything else so it is more of a composite composite culture a composite way of living and we need to in one sense interact with those who have lived it or those who are living it to understand how this is to be applied otherwise we will we think we are applying it but we'll end up some misapplying it yes yes thank you so i'll one last question then maybe we can conclude unless you do you have some more points to speak about what whatever we have discussed if something is not addressed okay so with respect to we have we i talk from the temple's leaders perspective and the individual's perspective and so with respect to the individual's perspective your your the your point you are making is ultimately that we have to grow if i if i understood rightly that we have to we have to grow spiritually and that means eventually we have to give up our vastness and that that that come across low movements that has to be given up so we can't live forever with a fickle mind but at the same time for us to stabilize our mind also there has to be a pathway and so we have to carefully introspect from our perspective what exactly is the cause of my restlessness so there also to some extent you know Prabhupada nectar of introduction actor of instruction introduction says that once you come to once you come to the mode of goodness then how to advance further will be revealed so to some extent even the sadhaka if they are in they come to the mode of goodness then they will also be able to better understand what what my nature is and what is just fickling change fickle change or fleeting changes of the mind so any any point is about about this about how the sadhkas can maybe come or better recognize their nature and then the sadhaka is a very big word okay sadhaka is a very big word not a not easy to become a sadhaka if you are a totally hundred percent sadhaka you don't require varanashrama at all you don't require now the question is the question is how many in the movement are 100% 24 hours engaged in pure devotional service are doing sadhana 24 hours a day okay so you are using the word sadhana sadhaka for one who is full-time sadhaka full-time is 24 hours engaged in sadhana bhakti but somebody who's 24 hours engaged in sadhana bhakti he doesn't require varanashrama he just practices for the sake of practicing it if it is there if it is not they're also fine are we just this is this moment only meant for those who are sadhakas that is the question that this moment is meant for everybody in this in this world can you expect the moment you just connect somebody to Krishna consciousness immediately tomorrow onwards he'll become a sadhaka he may take up some practices of sadhana bhakti but his consciousness is in karmamishra gyanamishra isn't it so you just cannot say that uh somebody the sadhaka is kleshagni shubhada these two things should manifest and our we're not just talking we're talking about there are some life members visitors the congregation and congregation one you may be one may be initiated why may not be initiated their children who are interested in Krishna consciousness but they have their own goals in their life so you are dealing with a larger spectrum of society so you may be a sadhaka but you're dealing with whom there's a huge variety of audience at different levels of consciousness with varied kind of designs so you have to accommodate them Shri Raupa named it international society the society you'll have all kinds of people coming and you have to tax your mind to engage everyone and gradually think of ultimately taking pure devotional service becoming sadhakas and ultimately achieve prema uh so this is what is our uh movement meant for uh this challenge it is it is easy to just have a small mata and uh 8 10 people are there you know and they can sleep in some corner is to you don't have to take 100 attendance for their mangalarathi you have 18 sadhus and somebody gives some rice and dog who can offer to the deities and eat well somebody gives donation don't give donation somebody comes doesn't come it doesn't matter if you're in that mood then okay fine but his car is not made rope but did not make it sound it's gone like that so it's a it's a bigger challenge we get a challenge so again in answers we are to some extent in uncharted territory and we can't have pat answers for this it has to be carefully maybe kalapatra who is where we have to consider that and then decide that yeah you are having temple you are dealing with politicians you are dealing with businessmen you have been dealing with enemies or enemies all kinds of people are there that makes it more complex agreed so i think this acknowledgement of complexity is in one sense a sign of humility yeah because sometimes we just in the name of being faithful and strict we we try to advance very very simplistic answers to complex issues and then anybody who doesn't accept the simplistic answers we say that they're not some i will say that you are not faithful just have faith so the world is a complex place and we have to consider it it's not that we have immediate solutions and prabhupada i read a letter recently raupad wrote to simti moraji i mean i mean i'm experimenting in various ways how to attract these western people to krishna yes so so prabhupada's purpose of getting people to krishna was fixed but we could say the process the means by which there was experimentation with respect to that also so if he had to do it we also will have to yeah yes so generally toward the end of the podcast i try to summarize we discuss a lot of things i'm not sure how much i can summarize but i'll try to do that in a few minutes and then if there's some things which you would like to add as concluding words we can do that okay so broadly we discussed today about the needs addressing the evolving needs of a devotee community through varanashram that is a overall trust so you started your spiritual you talk about your spiritual journey starting with that concept of destiny happiness is fixed distress happiness will also be fixed and then how you came to uh after being taking a lot of services in kolkata then you came to mira road and then that's where your services emerged afterwards then we started discussing about the transition in our movement so how we have become a prominently congregation-based movement now and instead of simply thinking of this terms of say just geographical location relocation of devotees from inside the temple to outside it's it can also be the natural development of where we are moving towards varanashram so the four stages sankirtan initiation temple construction and varanashram so varanashram so these four can be parallelly happening but if we focus on varanashram all the remaining will also happen because devotees will be engaged according to their nature and you made a powerful point that projects don't run based on based on big projects don't happen simply based on a large number of devotees they happen based on enthusiastic devotees acting according to their subhava so that were and then but if you do the so the first is like a varanashram is like the uh hundred rupee note in which all other notes are included so now varanashram doesn't simply mean doesn't mean going to a village and retire living like that it means basically compatible engagement providing everyone uh seva according service according to what they what is according what is the basically their nature and if this doesn't happen then devotees will be dissatisfied and that we could say that dissatisfaction from incompatibility with their nature will overshadow whatever spiritual taste they might get and that may cause them to go away from bhakti so now how do we know what is a person's nature to engage them so at the basic level we can say find people's interests and engage them but over a period of time we can observe the birth and then we can observe the birth chart and astrology could be a tool maybe that will happen so we will the more more devotees become stabilized in ashram then over generations the will also become clearer and then we discussed in the present situation what can leaders do that if we can't if somebody has a particular nature that we can't engage instead of making them feel guilty or rejecting them uh or making them that say that you have to you have to surrender and surrender doesn't mean giving up your nature but we can have a network of leaders and somebody else can be uh who can engage such a devotee that can be respect carefully handed over just like a father hands over a daughter to another family in marriage so and and similarly for devotees who feel the need for space now that's that seeking space should not be done in the mood of rebellion because ultimately rebellion is not going to help us advance spiritually but through careful introspection gradually we can find a nature find a way in which we can engage ourselves in some ways in the field of education as an example we discussed how already compatible service and compared that forums are happening but this understanding once varna it is and moving our movement can say towards providing compatible engagement this is this will require thought and acknowledging its complexity is also important sign of humility you made intermediately very striking point that the varna ashram is not so much to be seen as a hierarchy as more of contemporary compatibility so when it is confused with jati it becomes a big problem and jati is by birth we are not purporting propagating jati at all so even when there was a hierarchy in society in the past there was a lot of respect for everyone and that every if like that is striking driver sahab what you mentioned so everybody is respected and that is a part of we could say culture also yes people may have different services but every service is valuable every no nature is itself lower and then just as this caste system similarly astrology may also be misunderstood like somebody may make either reject astrology as skeptically or make that the sole basis of decision making but it is more like a weather forecast which will help us to drive more carefully and effectively so in this way we can all be as individuals and as individual devotees and leaders can move towards providing everyone more harmonious engagements thank you very much for you want to add anything towards oh you have perfectly summarized everything very well thank you it was such an illuminating discussion i look forward to having you for many more podcasts in future.