How to Present Scriptural Wisdom to Our Children | Chaitanya Charan

Hare Krishna.

So today, am I audible here?

Yes, Prabhuji.

Okay, perfect.
And the screen sharing is working?

Yes.

That’s great.
I’ll be using the whiteboard tablet to write and draw certain things.

So let’s begin by looking at verse 8.2.5—the elephant Gajendra’s crisis.

Here, the residents of higher realms like the Kinnaras, Apsaras, and others who were engaged in sporting and enjoyment are described. The caves (Kandaras) of the mountain are filled with these celestial beings—Siddhas, Charanas, Gandharvas, Vidyadharas, serpents, Kinnaras, Apsaras—who come there for recreation.

Just as ordinary men may play in the salty ocean, the inhabitants of the higher planetary systems float and sport in the ocean of milk and enjoy within the caves of Trikuta mountain.

Understanding the Bhagavatam

Let’s now try to understand what is happening in the Srimad Bhagavatam, and how we can grasp it more meaningfully.
When I give a class, I usually follow a framework I call CIT:

• C – Context: What is going on?
• I – Insight/Implication: What does it mean for us?
• T – Takeaway: How can we apply this in our lives?

So, context focuses more on the words, the verses, the chapter, and the book itself.
Implication brings out the universal principle or insight behind it.
Takeaway connects it to real-life relevance—what we can practically apply.

Interestingly, “CIT” also means consciousness—and ultimately, this is how we can approach scripture:
In a way that expands our consciousness and helps us become Krishna conscious.

Right now, our consciousness is limited.
Spiritual growth means expanding it until it becomes filled with Krishna, the Supreme Being.
Every shloka, every spiritual teaching we study is a step in this journey.
Even if our consciousness expands just a little through it, that’s valuable.

Context: Gajendra’s Situation

So, from this perspective, let’s explore the context.

This is the beginning of the Eighth Canto, and Gajendra’s pastime is the first major one.
We’re currently in Chapter 2. Chapters 2, 3, and 4 describe Gajendra’s crisis, his prayers of surrender, and his liberation.

These chapters follow a powerful arc:

1. Material happiness
   
2. Material distress
   
3. Material hopelessness
   
4. Spiritual surrender
   
5. Spiritual liberation
   

The word moksha or mukti is common in the Vedic tradition. But in the Bhakti tradition, it refers not to impersonal liberation but to loving union with Krishna in His abode.

Right now, the narrative describes Gajendra’s material prosperity—his state of material happiness.
From here, we will see how that turns into hopelessness, followed by his surrender and deliverance.

Understanding Material Happiness

Material happiness depends on several factors:

• The place we are in
• The people we are with
• The activity we are doing
• Our attitude or state of mind
  

In a broader sense, the soul is:

1. Situated in the mind
   
2. Within a physical body
   
3. Surrounded by people (social context)
4. Existing in a particular environment
   

These can be correlated with:

• Adhyatmika (body and mind)
• Adhibhautika (other beings or people)
• Adhidaivika (natural or cosmic environment)

So, material happiness often depends on where we are (Goa, Nainital, Darjeeling), who we are with, what we’re doing, and how we feel internally.

Someone can travel to a beautiful place but if they’re sick or have a bad mood, they may not enjoy it.
Someone else may visit an inconvenient place, but due to spiritual curiosity or a positive mindset, they may relish it.

In this way, material happiness is multi-factored and often fragile.

Describing the Place: Trikuta Mountain

Now, in the verse we are discussing, the place is being described—it’s so fantastic that it may seem like fantasy. But fantasy implies it’s imaginary. Here, fantastic means wonderful and extraordinary.

Sometimes, readers may question the reality of such places or beings:
“Do such beings as Apsaras, Charanas, Siddhas really exist?”

One scholar once remarked:
“While mythological imagination exists in every religious tradition, only in Hinduism has it run riot. There are not just multiple gods, but millions; not just one heaven, but many planetary systems.”

From an outsider’s view, this might appear as wild imagination. But even in Christianity, we find angels, demons, devils, and ghosts. So this richness isn’t unique to Vedic literature alone.

The Role of Worldviews

What matters is the worldview.
We all live within a worldview, and often we’re unaware of how deeply it shapes us.

For example:

• A scriptural worldview (Shastra-chakshu) sees reality through the lens of spiritual teachings.
• A modern materialistic worldview might dismiss such descriptions as unscientific or fictional.

If two people operate from two drastically different worldviews, communication itself becomes difficult.

Let’s say someone is money-minded.
They may evaluate everything in terms of its monetary value, even a temple, seeing only the wealth behind it and not its artistic or spiritual depth.

Likewise, someone with a spiritual worldview might visit a temple and focus on:

• The ambience
  
• The mood of devotion
  
• The symbolism
  
• The experience of transcendence
  

Thus, our worldview filters and colors everything we perceive.

Who are the people behind this tradition? How are they depicted in various ways?
Do they come from a different background or belief system?
You may want to know:

• What are their beliefs?
• What do they worship?
• How do they worship?

Now, looking at the monetary aspect of religious practices or temples is important—it gives a certain perspective. But if that’s all we look at, we’ll miss out on so many other dimensions.

The point is: our worldview—whatever it may be—shapes our every view.
And especially when we go deep into scripture, and particularly when we try to communicate scripture to our children, worldview becomes very crucial.

Children’s Worldview: A Journey

Let’s consider a child’s journey in terms of worldview.
(And I hope the concept of “worldview” is clear now—it’s the foundational lens through which we perceive and interpret everything.)

When children are young—say, till the age of 10 or 12 (what we call the pre-teen years)—they mostly adopt the parents’ worldview.

Now, I won’t get into complex cases where the parents themselves have conflicting worldviews (e.g., a father who is materialistic and a mother who is devotional, or vice versa). Let’s assume that the parents share a reasonably similar worldview.

So in the early years, the child tends to adopt that shared parental worldview.
But at the same time, the child is going to school, where they are exposed to new influences.

From around 10 onwards (though the exact age can vary), till about 22–25, three major influences shape a young person’s worldview:

1. Education
   
2. Peers
   
3. Culture (including media)
   

Peers and culture are often closely linked, as peers reflect the prevailing culture and also shape it. Peers also emerge from the same education system, so there is overlap.

When Worldviews Clash: Cognitive Dissonance

Now, this is where a potential conflict arises:
If the worldview of the family and the worldview shaped by education and culture don’t match, it leads to something psychologists call cognitive dissonance.

Just like “resonance” means two sounds harmonize, “dissonance” means they clash.
So in cognitive dissonance, the child feels torn between two opposite views—and this is deeply disturbing.

For example, a child growing up in Bhakti, if not given a proper understanding of how science and scripture relate, might be told at home or at the temple that evolution is false.
But then in school, they see evolution as not just accepted—but embedded into all branches of science.

Now the question arises:
“Is evolution wrong?”
“But it’s everywhere in my books and teachers’ lectures!”
“How do I make sense of this?”

This internal conflict is often more painful than even the struggles with desires.

Desires vs. Worldview Conflict

When children hit their teens, hormones activate, and desires start to surface—sometimes conflicting with the values taught at home or in scripture.
This is a biological challenge, and while it’s hard, it can be handled with the right guidance.

But deeper than that is the intellectual or worldview conflict—particularly for those who are rationally inclined.
They feel as if two parts of them are pulling in opposite directions.

Resolving the Dissonance

Let me share a light example:
There was a cartoon where an Indian boy is in America. His American friend asks,
“Why do you people worship so many gods?”
The Indian boy replies:
“We like to keep backups.” 

Now it’s a witty answer, but behind such humor is a truth:
If children aren’t taught how to answer such questions meaningfully, they’ll make up their own answers.
That’s how people resolve cognitive dissonance—either by ignoring, rejecting, or patching up what they don’t understand.

Faith Development Across Generations

In religious psychology, a common research question is:
How is your faith similar to and different from that of your parents?

This has been studied extensively in Judaism and Christianity, less so in Islam and Hinduism.

What we see is that children rarely adopt their parents’ faith in exactly the same way.

• They might love kirtan but not be as interested in japa.
• Or they might do both but prefer more relaxed gender interactions, unlike previous generations.

Every generation finds its own way to harmonize tradition and modernity, faith and culture, devotion and logic.

Understanding this is key to effective communication.
Before we share, we must understand:
What is their worldview? How does it intersect with ours?

Intersection of Worldviews

So, suppose we have two worldviews:

1. Scriptural worldview
   
2. Modern worldview
   

Our focus, when trying to connect, should be the intersection of the two.

This overlapping area becomes the basis for meaningful communication.

Two Outcomes of Meaningful Engagement

If we engage sincerely at this intersection, two outcomes are possible:

1. The overlap expands—the person becomes more open to the scriptural worldview while still holding on to parts of the modern worldview.
2. The person gradually transitions to a scriptural worldview.

Both outcomes are positive.

• In the first case, the person becomes a scripture appreciator: they see value in scriptural teachings.
• In the second case, the person becomes a scriptural follower: they accept scripture as an authority.

Both journeys are valid—and important.

Conclusion: A Gradual Transition

So the takeaway is this:

• Recognize that worldviews shape perception.
• Understand that conflicts in worldview can cause serious dissonance—especially in children or youth.
• Find the intersection between your worldview and theirs.
• Build communication and trust in that overlapping space.
• Allow the journey to unfold—gradually from appreciation to acceptance.

In the next section, we’ll look at how Srila Prabhupada modeled this principle in his own outreach and teachings.

When Prabhupada was in Los Angeles, some devotees from Hawaii came to meet him. They said, “Prabhupada, when we speak with scholars and tell them about the Bhagavatam, they often mock us. For example, when we mention that Maharaj Ugrasena had an extraordinarily large number of bodyguards—an almost fantastical figure—they laugh and ask, ‘Where were their quarters? Where were their washrooms? How could so many people live in a place like Dwaraka?’”

Now, Prabhupada could have responded by saying that Krishna can maintain the entire world on the tip of a needle—emphasizing the inconceivable power of Krishna. We could cite astronomical figures (not in the sense of astronomy, but in terms of vast magnitude), yet to academics, such numbers seem absurd.

So how do we reconcile this? What was Prabhupada’s response?

Surprisingly, his reply was non-confrontational and pragmatic. Prabhupada asked, “Among the thousands of verses in the Bhagavatam, is that the only one you found worth discussing with scholars? If you get to meet a scholar for the first time—possibly the only time—is this the point you want to share with them? That a king had so many bodyguards?”

That approach doesn’t help. Instead, when a couple of scholars asked Prabhupada, “If your message had to be summarized briefly, what verses would you choose?”—he offered verses like 1.2.9 and 1.2.10. These verses emphasize that the purpose of life is not material gratification but spiritual cultivation.

This is a message anyone can relate to. They may not all accept it, but everyone can relate to it. Sooner or later, people realize: “There are so many things I wanted in life. Some I haven’t achieved. A few I have—but even those haven’t really brought me happiness. So, is there another path to happiness I can pursue?” This is how spiritual conversations can progress.

Now, consider a valuable takeaway here. Prabhupada gave a powerful definition of realization in a class: he said every acharya in our tradition has followed this principle—when teaching, we must connect the message of scripture with the interests of the audience.

He illustrated this with the idea of overlapping diagrams. One circle is the scriptural message coming from the past, and another circle is the interest of the audience in the present. Realization means presenting the message of scripture in a way that interests the audience—where those two circles overlap.

As speakers, teachers, or practitioners, we reside inside the tradition. But conceptually, we need to step into the audience’s circle—understand their interests, their concerns, their worldview—and then return to our base with that understanding.

This is our home, but just as in outreach, if we never step outside our home—physically or digitally—we won’t reach people. Outreach requires us to go beyond our physical and intellectual comfort zones. If we stay in our rooms or temples, even if visitors come, we won’t be able to connect with them meaningfully.

Similarly, we must go beyond our intellectual “home”—our familiar worldview. It’s not enough to dismiss others as “in Maya.” Yes, they may be, but they have their own reasoning and background for why they think the way they do. If we understand that, we can present spiritual wisdom in a way that resonates with them.

So “going out of our home” is not just physical—it’s also intellectual and cultural. If we carry a dismissive attitude—”Oh, these people are in Maya”—we will fail to reach them.

Now, consider one more example. Prabhupada once spoke with devotees of the Bhaktivedanta Institute (BI), who were scientists or interested in science. When discussing the existence of God or the soul, if devotees started quoting shlokas right away, Prabhupada said, “Don’t bring scripture here.”

He explained that our message should not rely only on quoting scripture—we should be able to explain it with logic and reason. Of course, we can quote scripture where appropriate. But when the audience does not accept scriptural authority, we must explain spiritual principles logically.

On the other hand, if we’re speaking to a traditional audience that accepts scripture, quoting it reassures them: “Yes, what you’re saying is based on shastra.”

So returning to the Bhagavatam example—yes, such verses exist. But the way we share them must be thoughtful. We must understand the worldview we come from, the worldview of those we’re speaking to, and find a meaningful bridge between the two.

That’s what it means to be realized.

What we understand by observing the world around us is one level of knowledge.
To convey the same point from the scriptures to those who accept scriptural authority, we can use scriptural explanations.
But for those who do not accept scriptural authority, we need to explain things rationally using logic.

For example, if we choose not to eat meat, and our children are going to school where others are eating meat, they may be asked, “Why don’t you eat meat?”

Now, we could say, “Anyone who breaks the four regulative principles will go to hell. They will be boiled in oil just like the animals are fried in frying pans. If you eat meat, you’ll go to hell.”

But what is the most likely response?
“You’ll go to hell? I don’t want to talk to such a person. You’re just a religious fanatic.”
They may consider us irrational because they don’t accept scripture, nor the idea of hell.
Even if they accept scripture, they may follow a Christian tradition where meat-eating is not condemned in the same way.

So, in such cases, we need to speak on the basis of logic.

What does logic mean?

There are many reasons to support vegetarianism. I have an article on my website The Spiritual Scientist where I explain how your food can help the world.
Every bite of vegetarian food benefits not just our health, but also the environment.

Why is vegetarian food better for our health?
Because the human digestive system, including the alimentary canal, is more similar to that of herbivores than carnivores.

Why is it better for the environment?
Because the land used to grow fodder for livestock could be used to grow food directly for humans—feeding many more people.
Also, livestock are subjected to significant cruelty. Documentaries have shown the painful conditions animals endure in meat industries.

This concern for cruelty is universal and widely shared.
In fact, a shift towards vegetarianism could significantly reduce global poverty.
And this isn’t just my opinion—organizations like the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) have supported this.

When we explain it this way, it becomes easier for people to understand.
The idea is that while we may have a scriptural reason for a certain practice, we can also find a logical reason that resonates with others.

So we begin with the logical explanation, and then we can add, “This is also mentioned in my scriptures, and that’s why I do it.”

But the initial reason we present doesn’t have to be scriptural—it can be something the audience can grasp and appreciate.

Let’s take the example of Tilak.
We can give a devotional explanation to insiders—those who accept scriptural authority or are inclined to do so.
We might say, “Tilak represents Krishna’s lotus feet, and Tulsi, His consort. The leaf is placed at the foot of the Lord.”

However, this explanation might be too difficult for others to understand.
It could even trigger gender-related questions like:

• Why is the male above?
• Why is the female below?
• Why is the female at the feet of the male?

These can create unnecessary complications.
So for newcomers, if someone asks about Tilak, I simply say:

“We understand that our existence is a gift of divinity and nature. This symbol represents divinity, and this one represents nature.”

If the conversation continues, we can explain how there’s synergy between divinity and nature—but we don’t have to say, “Divinity is male and nature is female.”
Otherwise, we open the door to more contentious questions:

• Why is divinity only male?
• Can’t divinity be female?

Thus, while we may have a specific explanation, we can also offer a universal explanation—something that people outside our tradition can also relate to.

The more we understand this principle and present accordingly, the more people we can meaningfully reach.

Take a simple purport from Śrīla Prabhupāda:
He could have elaborated on who the Cāraṇas, Siddhas, and other celestial beings are, but instead, he focuses on a relatable point—just as people play here, they also play there.
He emphasizes relatable commonality rather than overwhelming or alien details.
And that’s the essence—what is relatable and understandable.

That way, each of us can grow in our journey and help others grow in theirs.

To summarize what I discussed today:

Our theme was how to share scriptural wisdom, and I used the acronym C-H-I-T.

• C was Context:
  I discussed how the story moves from material happiness for Gajendra, to hopelessness, to spiritual surrender, and finally, spiritual liberation.
  This is the textual trajectory.
• Even our material happiness depends on many things:
  • The soul and its attitude
  • The physical activity we are engaged in
  • The people we are with
  • The place we are in

All these affect our happiness.
But sometimes the places or events described in scripture seem too fantastic—like fantasy.
That’s because our worldview shapes how we perceive everything.

We may not even be conscious of our worldview, but it shapes every single view we have.
So in outreach, we must realize:

• I inhabit one worldview
• The listener inhabits another

We need to find the intersection between our worldviews.

Once we do that, the area of overlap can grow.
Then the other person may move from being indifferent to becoming an appreciator of scripture.
And maybe, eventually, a follower.

So our children, too, go through a worldview evolution as they grow.
We should support them wisely.

In conclusion, as spiritual teachers or seekers, we must become expert at:

• Understanding the message of scripture, and
• Understanding the interests and worldview of the audience
  

This dual awareness enables us to present timeless truths in ways that touch hearts and transform lives.

Interest refers to what is intelligible or meaningful within someone’s worldview. Therefore, we need to present the message of scripture in such a way that it resonates with and interests them.
That’s why it’s important that we, at least intellectually, step outside our own worldview.

This (our worldview) is our home, but for outreach, we need to step out—to see how others are thinking, what they are thinking, and communicate accordingly.
The same scriptural message can be presented in different ways—sometimes rooted directly in scripture, other times conveyed through logic or relatable examples.

For instance, I could give an example of how to speak about meat-eating—why we avoid it—or how to explain the concept of luck. Even if the explanation isn’t purely logical, it can still tap into something more universal.

In such cases, you might offer a specific example and also a universal explanation.
The more universal the explanation, the more intelligible it becomes for a broader audience, and this is how our outreach can expand.

Thank you very much.

Is there any question or comment?

Audience Responses:

Speaker 1:
Hare Krishna, Prabhuji. Thank you so much for this very, very illuminating class.
I actually do not know the details about Tilak. Maybe this isn’t the right forum, but perhaps we can discuss it some other time if the class time is over.
Thank you, Prabhuji.

Speaker 2:
Thank you very much.
Thank you so much for this insightful class.
You explained everything so naturally and simply—how to explain things like vegetarian food or spiritual knowledge to school-going children.
We really appreciate your time, Prabhuji.

If anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to share.

Speaker 3:
Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.
Thank you very much for the nice class, Prabhu. I had a question.
My children grew up in Krishna consciousness, but as they went through high school and college, their worldview seems to have been shaped more by their schooling environment.

I grew up in India, so I don’t fully understand their worldview—just a little bit.
I can see that at least one of them experiences a kind of cognitive dissonance, like you mentioned—between what we practice at home and the trends or influences from outside.
They are still inclined toward spirituality, but as a parent, my expectations are different, and I’m struggling with that.

Any guidance, Prabhu?

Response:

Yes. First of all, just talk with them—don’t just talk to them.
Instead of immediately judging their actions as wrong, try to understand the reasons behind them.

Now, we may not consider their reasons valid, but they have some reason, and unless they feel we’re willing to understand them, there will be a communication breakdown.

As parents, it is our responsibility to pass on the values that shaped our own lives—values from our tradition and experience.
But at a certain point, especially in today’s world, it’s less about us transmitting values and more about them selecting which values they will accept.

So, instead of it being a one-way transmission, it becomes a two-way negotiation.

Initially, when the child is younger, the value transmission is more direct. For example, we teach them how to greet guests, how to speak respectfully, etc. But as they grow—especially beyond age 10 or into their twenties—it becomes more about them choosing.

That’s why I generally don’t recommend initiation before 18. Even if a child is enthusiastic at 14 or 15, they haven’t yet developed the maturity to make independent, informed choices.

Parents might be eager—“Oh, my child wants to get initiated!”—but it’s ultimately their life.
Krishna has given everyone free will, and they should make that choice with open eyes and ears, understanding the commitment they’re making.

Eventually, in their 20s or even later, they’ll integrate values—bringing together what they learned from parents, tradition, and personal experience.

To support this, peer groups are very helpful—where children can associate with others who are also spiritually inclined.
That way, the transition doesn’t feel like a zero-or-one, black-or-white choice.
They’ll see it’s not just “my family vs. the world.”
Gradually, they’ll find balance.

During this stage, communication must increase.
Instead of just giving instructions, create dialogue—back and forth.

In Eastern culture, authority is often vertical—guru on top, disciple below.
But in the West, relationships are more horizontal. There’s still some hierarchy, but it’s more collaborative.

Even in the Vedic tradition, we see this. Take Narada and Dhruva, for example.
Narada advises Dhruva to go back home, suggesting his problem is minor. But Dhruva respectfully replies, “What you say is true, but it doesn’t help me. My heart has been wounded by the harsh words and actions of my stepmother and father.”

Now, Narada doesn’t assert his seniority or authority—he doesn’t say, “How dare you!”
Instead, he adjusts. He sees what Dhruva needs and guides him accordingly.

So that’s what communication looks like.
Not just transmitting information, but adapting, listening, and guiding based on where the other person is at.

Thank you very much.
Speaker:
Thank you so much, Prabhu.
Hare Krishna.

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Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
Shri Prabhupada Ki Jai Jai Jai Jai Shreemate Bhakti Vedanta Swapamini Dinaamine Namaste Saraswati Deve Gauravani Pracharine Nirvishesha Shunyavadi Pashyatya Desha Tharine Vancha Kalpataru Vyascha Kripa Sindhubhya Evacha Patitanam Bhavanebhyo Vaishnavibhyo Namo Namaha Jai Shri Krishna Jai Tanya Prabhu Nityananda Shri Advaita Gadadharam Shri Vasadhi Gauravakta Vrinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare My dear lord please guide us all so that we can understand your words of wisdom and know how they can be applied in our lives so that we can become better and come closer to you Hare Krishna So am I audible here? So are we discussing today? Yes Prabhuji Okay perfect And screen sharing is happening So I’ll be using the whiteboard tablet to write and draw certain things So let’s begin by looking at the verse 8 to 5 The elephant Gacchandra’s crisis Siddha Charana Gandharvair Vidyadharamahoragai Kinnarair Apsarobhishcha Kridatbheli Jushtakandaraha Siddha by the inhabitants of Siddhaloka Charana the inhabitants of Charanloka Gandharvair the inhabitants of Gandharvaloka Vidyadharam the inhabitants of Vidyadharloka Mahauragai the inhabitants of Sarpantloka Kinnarai the Kinnaras Apsarobhi the Apsaras Chha and Kridatbhi who were engaged in sporting Jushta enjoyed Kandaraha the caves The inhabitants of the higher planets the Siddhas, Charanas, Gandharvas, Vidyadharas, Serpents, Kinnaras, Apsaras go to that mountain to sport As all the caves of the mountain are full of these denizens of the heavenly planets Purport, as ordinary men may play in the salty ocean, the inhabitants of the higher planetary systems go to the ocean of milk They float in the ocean of milk and also enjoy various sports within the caves of the Trikuta mountain So here let’s look at what is happening in the Shramad Bhagavatam and try to understand how we can understand it better So if you look at what is going on Generally when I give a class I try to use a framework that I call as Chit Now try to understand the context of what is going on and look at the insight of the implication What does it mean for us? What does it imply for us? And then what is the takeaway? How can we apply in our life from this? So another way to understand the context is we focus more on the words and the text within the words Words in the chapter and the book That’s what we try to understand And then implication is we try to more look at the universal principle over there And then takeaway is the application for us So it is more like a relevant application for us What can we take away from this? So this is a framework that we can use for approaching anything in scripture Chit also means consciousness So how to approach scripture in a way that our consciousness can expand And ultimately expand toward becoming Krishna conscious So right now our consciousness is small And the spiritual journey is about making our consciousness large So that our consciousness becomes filled with Krishna Krishna is the largest being And when our consciousness becomes filled with Krishna, our consciousness also becomes expanded So ultimately every shloka that we approach, every spiritual teaching that we approach Now this is the journey that we want to go Now each shloka that we approach might be just one step along this journey It will take us little bit of our consciousness may also expand by that And that is also good So little bit of our consciousness expands So from this perspective, let’s look at the context If we consider this is the starting of the 8th canto And this is the first pastime, major pastime described in the 8th canto We are in the second chapter right now So chapters 2, 3 and 4 If we go backward over here, you will see that Chapters 2, 3 and 4 Right now we are describing the Gajendra’s crisis And then his prayers of surrender and ultimately his liberation His return to the spiritual world These three chapters have a beautiful arc that way So the first chapter is describing how he was materially happy He is in a very wonderful situation But from there he went to a From material happiness Almost not just pain or material distress He went to a state of material hopelessness These two are described in the first chapter From that position of material hopelessness Then he goes to a spiritual surrender And from spiritual surrender Then he will get to spiritual liberation So for the word liberation or moksha or mukti is very common in the Vedic tradition Especially the Upanishads And in the Bhakti tradition it refers to ultimately Not the impersonal liberation but the loving union with God In his abode So this is the journey that is going to be described over here And right now In the start of this chapter So if we consider second chapter First it describes how he is materially happy And then he will become How he becomes materially hopeless So right now how he is materially happy is being described And while how he is materially happy is being described So generally when we talk about material happiness It depends on several factors Material happiness can come from the place we are in It can come from the people we are with It can come from the From the activity we are doing It can come from the mood we have Or attitude or frame of mind that we have So there are many factors which determine So in one sense if we consider That how does material happiness come For that matter any kind of happiness How does it come? Because the soul is here And the soul is situated in the mind The soul is situated in the gross body And then the soul is situated In a social circle among some people And the soul is situated in the environmental circle Soul is situated in a particular environment So if we consider each of these The soul, the mind, the body, the people and the place Those of you who Some of you may notice that this is associated with the The body and the mind are associated with the Adhyatmik The people are associated with the Adhibhautik The places are associated with the Adhyatmik Sorry Adhidaivik So generally if we consider everything about happiness Or if somebody goes to a hill station Or somebody goes to a beautiful place Say in India somebody might go to Goa or Nainital or Darjeeling In America somebody might go to Niagara Falls Somebody might go to certain places In America, beautiful Some lakes, some deserts, some forests Some mountains So the place Going to a particular place Some places are beautiful Some places are architectural marvels But the place can give us happiness Then the people whom we are going with Now when we Either the people could refer to the people whom we are going with Or people to whom we are going So when the tourists come to India Often we take spiritual tourists on a tour of India Spiritual tour of India The place is important They would like to go and see the Taj Mahal They might want to go and see Jaipur They might If they are more devotional inclined They might also want to see Vrindavan So the place But then who are the kind of people Either who are guiding them Or whom they are interacting with over there Somebody might go to Radha Kund Somebody might go to Jagannath Puri And if they meet people over there Who are say For whatever reason The religious representatives of those places Are sometimes very pushy and aggressive And demanding money It can create a very unpleasant experience So the people around us They matter a lot For the kind of experience that we have And then of course sometimes If you go to a particular place If our health is not good You travel to a new place Because of the food we get Or whatever It can be very unpleasant Or If somebody has a very critical attitude They didn’t want to go to India But maybe Somebody pushed them to go And they have come So even if they are going to a very beautiful place They may not appreciate the beauty On the other hand Somebody who is spiritually curious and eager Oh I have read so much about India I have heard about India I want to explore it I see many tourists People who have that What they call is Wandering bug Or travel bug Or travel loss they call it People who love to travel They just love exploring new people And new places so much That even though There are physical inconveniences They fall sick The weather is too hot The logistics don’t work They don’t get irritated So The idea is that Material happiness Depends on many of these factors And Why are we discussing all this? Here The place Is being described And it is such a fantastic place That it can almost seem to be like fantasy That Fantasy is something which is imaginary Which is unreal Fantastic is wonderful So Now Some people can get fixated on this itself You know Oh are all these kind of beings actually existing? Are all these So many Different Different specific names are given over here The Charanas The Siddhas The Apsaras Who has seen all these people? And There is one scholar of religion He said that Hmm While the mythological imagination Is there in every religious tradition It is only in the Hindu tradition That the mythological Imagination Has run riot That They have not just imagined One God They imagined millions of Gods They have not just imagined One particular Abode like heaven or something They have imagined dozens of other planets Hundreds of Millions of universes And Even an unlimited number of Spiritual worlds So The idea is that All this can seem It’s a fair point You know if we consider That Now It’s not imagination But from their perspective It’s mythological imagination Run riot In other traditions Okay There is one God And And And there is one particular Abode where God lives Of course never that simple In the Christian tradition There are angels And there are demons And there are devils And There are ghosts Which need to be exorcised So there is a whole Range of That is there everywhere also But Certainly the idea of so many Gods being there Is not there But Independent of whether it’s the Indian tradition Or not And any sacred text That we look at There will be much That will seem Unbelievable to the mind today So Now for those of us Who are regularly studying these texts Even this may not even Strike us to objectionably Just describing this world Why because What has happened We all live Within a particular World view We all live Within a particular world view So for example this is the Scriptural world view Shastra Chakshu or Gyan Chakshu We live with a scriptural world view And Most people Live Within a Different world view Say for example their world view Would be a Modern world view Now what happens is That When two people Are having two different world views Then Communication itself can become Very difficult Because Let’s try to explore the Point of world view over here So now I have moved In the analysis The context idea What is the context The how enjoyable this place Is That is what is being Talked about over here So that’s why the specifics Of the place were given And Prabhupada Focusses on that particular point When he says that just as we Play and sport here Similarly there are places Where people are sporting In the higher world So in the Chitta acronym I have moved towards the Implication now So what is the implication Implication is All this can seem so fantastic As to seem like fantasy And how do we deal with that So let’s try to understand First The concept of a world view And how It shapes our view Our world view Is often invisible Yet While being invisible We may not be aware of our world view But it shapes Our every view Everything that we see Is shaped by our world view And that’s why Understanding what someone’s World view is Before we can communicate with them Is important So for example if Somebody is say very Money minded Somebody is very not just materialistic Materialistic could mean That they want lots of material good They want material fame But materialistic specifically In terms of money minded We might say We might use the word greedy for them So then for them If that is the base of their world view Then everything they will see In terms of monetary value Now Seeing terms of monetary value Is it important Well yes When somebody comes to a temple If it’s a grand temple That we see Then we will be aware Oh Whichever religious group Whichever community built this temple They must have a lot of money Otherwise they would not be able to build such a big temple But for most people Yeah that would be one factor What we might look as the grandness of the temple The artistry of the temple How the spiritual ambience is created by its Artistry and architecture And You might focus on trying to understand If it’s our own tradition Then okay who are the people who are behind this And how are they depicted various things If they are from a different tradition What are their beliefs What do they Worship So a monetary value Looking at the monetary value is important But if that is all that we are looking at Then we will miss out on so many things In our view So The idea is That Our world view whatever it may be It shapes our every view So Especially when we Go deep into scripture Now if we Start communicating scripture with our Children Now what happens The children if you look at Children’s journey And We could Say A child’s World view journey I hope the concept of world view is clear That it is the basic Foundational lens With which we view everything So when our children are small Say till the age of Say 10 or 12 As we call it pre-teens Then they just more or less adopt The parent’s world view Now Of course I will not get into the complexity where the Parents don’t have a shared world view Where say the Father is materialistic And the mother is a devotee or The mother is religious and the father Is not. Let’s assume that the parents Have more or less a shared world view So the child Adopts that particular world view Now of course At this time also the child is going to school And in school they are learning certain things But it is the parents influences Much more atleast in the first 5-6 years But Now after this onwards Somewhere from 10 prominently Now these ages are a bit arbitrary But The specifics may not vary So say maybe up to Up to 20, 22, 25 Something like that Between 20 to 25 Let’s put it here There is the education That shapes their world view That is there are peers That shape their world view And there is a broader culture The peers can be said to be associated with the culture The peers can also be said to be associated with the education That means just the kind of kids That they hang out with So now This is where if these two world views Don’t match Then this is where What is psychology called as A cognitive dissonance Like resonance means Two sounds reinforce each other Dissonance means The two sounds just go completely Opposite to each other And when cognitive dissonance happens Then it is very Difficult to process it So for example If Somebody grows up in bhakti And if they do not have Proper understanding Of how science and scripture interact They may be told by By some Teachers or by somebody that you know That the whole theory of evolution is wrong And then they go to school And they find that Evolution is not just accepted Evolution is embedded In almost every area of science Nowadays Is this right? Is this wrong? How do I deal with this? So This is A much deeper Pain than simply The pain of desires When somebody hits teenagers Hits teens, hormones start becoming active And As puberty starts coming closer Certain desires start coming in Biologically And those May pull them to go away from The values and the principles That they have learned from their tradition And that pull has to be Fought against and that’s difficult But that can be done What is much more difficult is For at least some people Those who are more rationally or intellectually inclined is this So here I’m giving an example that How does this work? What is happening is That the worldview that we have Shapes our view And so you could say They grew up in a school They grew up with their parents They get more like a Faith-centred worldview Faith-centred worldview means A faith-centric worldview So But as they go in education They often get a more Reason-centred worldview Is this logical? Does this make sense? And When it doesn’t make sense They struggle to somehow Make sense of it It’s almost like there are two parts inside them And the two parts just can’t get along With each other I saw one picture Nowadays It was more like a cartoon image Where an Indian boy is in America And his American friend is asking him Why do you people worship so many gods? And this Indian boy Thinks And he says We like to keep backups We Like to keep backups So the idea over here is That We don’t really learn If we don’t learn How to answer questions Then we will try to come up with Our own answers And That’s how everybody tries to Resolve This cognitive dissonance In religious Psychology One common question that is asked For say children who grow up In a particular tradition And they adopt that tradition So in Judaism these studies have been done a lot Christianity also has been done it In Islam and Hinduism they have not been done so much It is that You know how does your faith How is your If children who grow up and they become young adults And they adopted that faith You ask them how is your faith Similar to And different from The faith of your parents So sometimes the answers are fascinating over here Like say many of us May want our children or our grandchildren To become devotees And we may We may Do everything that we can for that purpose But we may find that They Even when they adopt bhakti They may not adopt bhakti the way we want We adopted it For example They may be interested in kirtan but they may not be interested in japa so much Or They may They may be interested in kirtan They may be interested in japa also but You know maybe the gender interactions Between boys and girls Will be much more Fluid Than how they were much more structured and rigid In the past So Every generation Will find its way to harmonise What it has got from the tradition And what it is getting from the culture So It’s understanding that our world view Is affecting others And And If their world view is not similar Then that Before communication can happen We need to find out What are the similarities Between their world view and our world view And so going back to this Earlier point Let’s say If this is a scriptural world view And this is a more Modern world view So Now if this is a scriptural world view And a more Modern world view So we need to be able to Understand Which is the intersection Between the two of them And then We need to focus on This area for communication For establishing Some basis For sharing What it is that we are teaching So I’ll give two or three Examples of this I am moving on to the takeaway now From here The implication was If people have different world views And communication has to happen Then we have to find the Overlapping area between the two world views And Over time That Two things can happen by this So let’s move to the takeaway Now if we focus On this area Of communication Two things can happen One is That we may gradually find that this area Itself increases There is greater and greater overlap That person May still have that world view We may still have our old world view But the overlap May increase That could be one way this trajectory can grow Another way the trajectory can grow Is that Can we Is there any problem or can you Put everyone on mute otherwise So the other thing that can happen is That gradually That person From there May Come to Adopt the world view here So Now Both of these are success So here We’ll see the person takes a journey And by taking that Journey comes to The world view over here So this is basically where You could say Here a person become if you consider it as a scripture Here a person becomes A scripture appreciator Appreciator is Hey there is something of value in scripture Here a person Becomes a scripture follower Follower means They accept the So appreciator means We see some value in scripture Follower means we see scripture As not just some value But we see scripture as a source of authority And this will happen gradually So So If we move forward from here To understand this further Let’s look at some examples of Prabhupada adopted this particular Point also Prabhupada was in Los Angeles Some devotees from Hawaii They came to meet him And they said Prabhupada When we talk with the scholars And When we tell them So this is When we tell them we are talking about the Bhagavatam And There are people who are scholars Academic scholars He says if we tell them That say Maharaj Ugrasen Who was ruler of Dwarka Had some Extraordinary Number of bodyguards Which ran into some fantastic figure So they start laughing At us And they say Where were their quarters Where were their washrooms How did they live in a place like Dwarka Now Prabhupada Could have said that Krishna can maintain the entire world On the tip of a needle Prabhupada could have Emphasised The Inconceivable power of Krishna So Astronomical By astronomical I am not Using about astronomy but some Huge astronomical figures Are there And Academic figures seem absurd So now how do they reconcile that What was Prabhupada’s reply His reply was Surprisingly Non confrontational And pragmatic Prabhupada said Among all Thousands of verses in the Bhagavatam Was that the only thing that you found To speak to the scholars If If you are going to meet a person for the First time or the only time And is that what you want to tell them At that time Oh you know this king had so many bodyguards It is not the importance of the Bhagavatam So when Prabhupada was asked By a couple of scholars About You know if your message is to be Summarised very briefly What would you use So Prabhupada of course Different things but 1.2.9 And 10 He says 2.1.2 2.1.2 2.1.2 2.1.2 2.1.2 2.1.2 2.1.2 2.1.2 2.1.2 The idea is in these verses The focus is Life is meant for spiritual cultivation. Life is not meant for material gratification.
Now this is a message that anybody can relate with. Not everybody can accept it but everybody can relate with it because sooner or later everybody will start experiencing that okay I have sought certain things in my life. There are many I haven’t achieved.
There are a few I have achieved but even those which I have achieved have not really led me to happiness. So is there some other way to happiness that I can pursue and that’s how things move forward. So if you consider the takeaway for us is like Prabhupada also gives a definition of realisation.
On Guru Purnima I gave a class on this topic about how every acharya in our tradition has actually adopted this principle. So Prabhupada says when we are going to teach if this is the message of scripture that is coming from the past and this is the interests of the audience. So these are like the overlapping diagrams the overlapping shapes.
So he says realisation means to speak the message of scripture in a way that is interesting for the audience. So in one sense as speakers as teachers as practitioners we could say we are over here we are inside the tradition but from there we need to be able to come at least conceptually to be temporarily in this circle to understand what are the interests of the audience. So once we understand the interest of we don’t want to reside over there but we need to go over there understand and then come back over here.
So this is our home but just like when we are going to do outreach if we are only going to be in our homes if you don’t go out to distribute books you don’t go out to call people if you are in the temple also if you stay in our own room so many visitors will come to our temple but we will not be able to reach out to them just as outreach. Outreach means it requires that we come out of our home. Now nowadays with digital outreach we can go out of our home even digitally also but physically or digitally we do have to go out of our room.
So similarly we may have to conceptually intellectually worldview wise come out of our home instead of just saying that oh anybody doesn’t accept scriptures in Maya. No okay what is this person thinking why are they thinking like that within their thinking how can I present scriptural wisdom in a way that they can make sense out of it. So going out of our home it could be physical home it can also be our intellectual home our worldview home.
So if we have too much of a dismissive attitude all these people are simply in Maya. Okay they are in Maya but they have their own reasoning why they are in having that kind of conception. So when we do this we’ll be able to reach out to people much more effectively.
You do examples of this and then end the talk. When Srila Prabhupada was talking with the B.I. the Bhaktivinayana Institute and there are scientists or devotees who are interested in science. So at that time he says that we should when he’s discussing with them about the existence of God or the existence of soul and you all start quoting shlokas.
Prabhupada said don’t quote scripture here. He said our message we should be able to present the message not just based on scripture by quoting scripture where required we should be able to quote it explain it based on logic without needing to refer to scripture. So it depends on the kind of audience that we are trying to reach out to.
Now if we are reaching out to a traditional audience who has already accepted scriptural authority then quoting scripture will actually reassure them that oh what you’re saying is based on scripture. So in the Bhagavatam it is said going back to this particular point that it is Yatha Shruti and Yatha Mati. Yatha Shruti is what I have heard from scripture.
Yatha Mati is what I have understood according to my according to the world view that I came from according to the world view that I am trying to reach. So whenever Yatha Mati or Yatha Aditi said this phrase comes multiple times. So this point which Prabhupada mentioned about realisation there’s a scriptural basis for that.
Shruti is what we get from the tradition. Mati or Aditi is what we get by observing the world around us. To the same point we should be able to convey according to scripture to those who accept scriptural authority.
For those who do not accept scriptural authority then for them we need to be able to explain things rationally using logic. So for example if we choose not to eat meat then if our children are going to school and say other than eating meat over there and some students ask why don’t you eat meat. Now we can say that in the Bhagavatam it is said that anybody who breaks the four regulations that person will go to hell and they will be boiled in just as the animals are fried in frying pans of oil they will be fried in oil and they will be they’ll suffer terribly and if you eat meat you will go to hell.
They should tell that what is most people reason you go to hell right now. I don’t want anything to talk with you. You are an irrational person.
So they have not accepted scripture. They have not accepted the idea of hell. Even if they have accepted scripture and they accept the idea of hell they live in a Christian tradition where meat eating is not talked about in such negative terms over there.
So then what happens is we need to talk based on logic. Logic means what? That there are many reasons. I have an article on my spiritual scientist website where I talk about how your food can help the world.
So how every bite that we eat vegetarian food is better for our health. It is better for our environment. Why is it better for our health? Because it is actually human bodies the alimentary canal and everything is much more suitable much more similar to the vegetarian alimentary canal the whole digestive system and animal and the non-vegetarian carnivorous digestive system environment is because the amount of land that is used to grow fodder for livestock if we use it to grow food for human beings so many more humans can be fed than livestock.
Livestock is where the animals are subjected to so much cruelty and there are documents like meet your meat or whatever they show how much more subjected to pain they are there’s something which is universal there’s something common they also have concern about this and overall you can actually remove much poverty from the world if we shift to more of a vegetarian diet and this is not just me saying it the food and agriculture organisation has said this many secularly respected organisations have also said it so when we explain it in this way then it becomes relatively easier for people to understand so the idea is how we may have a scriptural explanation for this but is there is for the same point is there a logical explanation but we started the logical explanation and then we can say yeah this is why I do it at the same time this is also talking about in my scriptures I base this on this particular scripture but the reason we give in the beginning need not be the reason that comes from scripture it may be a reason that comes from how people understand it now if we consider we are tilak now for tilak we can give a very devotional reason you know that this is if you’re talking with insiders those who have accepted scriptural authority we can easily or those who are ready to become insiders we say that this is krishna’s lotus feet and it’s tulsi now if you consider and tulsi is his consort and this is the leaf is at the foot of the lord so now the fact is that this becomes too much for people to understand and then it also leads to gender related questions you okay why is the male above why is the female below and why is the female at the feet of the male you know this seems to be like a very gendered hierarchy which can actually just trigger people unnecessarily first of all they can’t understand it even if they understand it they may not be able to relate with it it will lead to questions so for for new people if somebody asks about tilak i say that simply that we understand our tradition that we our existence is a gift of divinity and of nature so this particular symbol it represents divinity and this particular symbol it represents nature so now if once you go into specifics you can talk about how there is a synergy between divinity and nature at the nature itself once it we don’t have to say that nature is female and divinity is male because then again yes divinity is why is divinity only male why can’t we not be female so basically you give a you can there will be a specific explanation and there may be a universal explanation universal means that something which can be understood by people who have not yet accepted the specific assumptions or specific scriptural teachings of the tradition so to the extent we understand this and present accordingly we will be able to reach out to more and more people and should have Prabhupada in his simple purport when he is saying he could have gone into okay who are the charanas who are the siddhas who are these who are that he could have gone into an elaborate description of all that but Prabhupada just very practically focusses on the principle that just as we play over here they are playing over there so focus on the commonality and all that which seem far out that’s not the emphasis the emphasis is on what is relatable what is understandable and that way each one of us can grow in our journey in helping others in our capacity to help others grow on their journey so I’ll summarise what I discussed today our theme was how to share spiritual or mostly scriptural wisdom that was a broad theme I was talking about and I use the acronym chit for that so c was c i t c was the context so in the context I discussed how this is describing a material turbulence then spiritual so there is material happiness for gajendra then there’s material hopelessness for gajendra and then from that hopelessness comes spiritual surrender and then there is spiritual liberation so this is the trajectory of the this is a textual trajectory the textual context we can say and within that within that material happiness what is described is that how for each one of us our happiness is determined by we consider the soul is there the soul the kind of attitude that a person has the frame of mind the kind of activity that they’re doing a physical level the kind of people they are with and the place that they are in all that determines the happiness for us even at a material level so the the frame of mind the body and the body’s physical activity that we are doing what are we doing at a particular place then the kind of people we are hanging out with and the place we are at so all these determine our material happiness or in general happiness it doesn’t have to be material also to some extent so then right now in the bhagavatam the place is described so then we describe whether the place the implication of this is and the place can seem it can seem so fantastic that it can seem to be like fantasy this just is unbelievable there’s no way something some place like this can exist so we discussed how our every view whatever we see that is shaped by our world view so now we may not be consciously aware of our world view but our world view invisibly shapes our every view of the visible and therefore whenever there’s to be outreach what we need to understand is that i am inhabiting a particular world view the other person is inhabiting a different world view and this is our world view and this is the other’s world view so understanding what is the world view that they are having and finding out where is the intersection between the two that is important when this is done what can happen is that the area of overlap may gradually increase and this is where a person becomes at least an appreciator of scripture or they may so they may still be in that other world view but they’ll at least become appreciator or what can happen with time is that they may even move from that world view to adopt a more scriptural world view so ours could be a scriptural world view there could be a more modern or rational world view so i talked about our children when they are evolving how their worldview journey occurs so for us for art as a takeaway you know we discussed how the principle of realisation is that we need to be expert enough to look at what is the message of scripture and what is the audience interest interest refers to what is interesting or intelligible within their worldview and we need to be able to present the message of scripture in such a way that it can interest them that’s why it’s important that we at least be intellectually able to come out of our worldview this is our home but this is for outreach we need to be able to come out of our worldview and go out to see how they are thinking what they are thinking and be able to communicate accordingly so the same message of scripture this could be our message that could be taught based on scripture but that can be taught also based on logic now this can also so i give example of how we may talk about meat eating why we avoid it we need or i can give the example of how to explain about the luck so even if it’s not exactly logical we are talking here about something which is more universal so give your specific example in a specific explanation and universal explanation the more universal explanation the more intelligible it will be for people and that’s how our outreach can expand thank you very much hare krishna is there any question or comment hare krishna prabhu ji thank you so much for this very very illuminating class i actually do not know the details about the tilak maybe this is not the forum for it but i maybe another time we can talk about it if the class time is over thank you prabhu ji hare krishna thank you very much thank you so much for this niften class and so naturally so simply you explain how to explain about the tilak and how to take school going kids how to explain about knowledge or vegetarian food about that and so thank you so much prabhu ji we really appreciate your time and coming on the call and anybody has any question or comment please go ahead hare krishna please accept my humble obeisance is not very special but thank you very much for the nice class prabhu i had a question like my children grew up in krishna consciousness but as they went to college and in the high school i mean when you are explaining the class i could understand their worldview seemed to be shaped by the school and college and i grew up in india so for me i do really do not understand their worldview fully at least a little bit i do understand probably but i see that at least for one of them there is this dissonance the cognitive dissonance that you were talking about in terms of how what we follow at home and what his friends or what the others do they’re still inclined but at least i as a parent my expectations are different i’m struggling with that any guidance on that problem yeah just talk with them don’t talk to them instead of immediately judging their actions as wrong try to understand why if they have some reason now we may not consider the reason acceptable but they have some reason so at least try to understand them see if our children feel that that that we are not even ready to understand them or we are not even capable of understanding them then there is a communication breakdown so one of the problems in this is that on one side as parents we are expected to it’s our responsibility to pass on the values that have shaped our life the values which we have received from our tradition from our experience to our children but at the same time is a particular time when it’s not so much we passing on our values as they selecting which values they will accept so at that time instead of it becoming a transmission it becomes more like a negotiation negotiation is going to happen in their mind so if you consider initially there’s a parent and there is a child so in the initial stage it’s a transmission of values you know okay that is you know if guests come to our right you should should respect them in this way you should talk with them in this way it’s not that simple but overall it’s like that but say after 10 12 or something like that and especially after 20 it becomes all the more so here it starts becoming a negotiation or sometimes it may not even be it just becomes like their selection of values ultimately they select what values they are leading according to that’s why in general I am not very much in favour of children getting initiated before they come to 18 even if they’re turning 16 that’s very enthusiastic they have not yet developed their own thinking capacity to make their own choices as parents may be very enthusiastic oh my child got here at the age of 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 now it is ultimately their life Krishna has given them free will and they need to choose what they are choosing and they need to choose it with their eyes and ears open understanding what they are getting into or what they’re committing to so now eventually they will come to beyond 20 25 they will come to integration of values integration may take it may it may take much more time but that’s where okay this is what I’ve learned from my parents this is what I’ve learned from my tradition this is what I have learned from my experience and this is how I’ll bring them together so now that’s why for children to also have peer groups is helpful for children to have where there are other kids who are also somewhat who are also spiritually inclined spiritually interested so it won’t become one zero for them that if there are kids who come together and they interact with each other that also helps so that way it’s a it’s a gradual process but in general during this phase there has to be much more communication if you see rather than just instruction there has to be communication is to and fro generally the example of a guru and disciple or authority and subordinate when we come from the eastern world is it’s very hierarchical it’s very vertical the authority is on top and the subordinate is below now here in the west this is this isn’t the east much more in the west it is much more horizontal there is some it is there some amount of hierarchy is there but it’s much more horizontal and if you see in the vedic tradition also this is not unprecedented for example we have narada and we have dhruva so narada tells dhruva that yes i’ll just yeah that’s a small child you know children sometimes quarrels nothing just go back home why are you leaving your home because it’s a small thing and dhruva respects narada he says the words you’re saying are true but they find no place in my heart because my heart has been insulted has been wounded by the insulting words and the insulting actions of my stepmother and my father so now narada doesn’t go on a ego trip and say who do you think you are i am the son of brahma i i have been for more generations than the living for more generations the number of years we are living on this planet so who do you think you’re questioning narada doesn’t do that narada gently okay if this doesn’t work for you then what works for you let’s discuss that and narada gives him something that will work for him so that i think communication has to happen okay thank you very much go thank you thank you thank you very much thank you for the class