Analyzing Govardhan Lila 2 – How Indra is thwarted and reformed

[Seminar at ISKCON, Soho Street, London, UK]

Video:

Hare Krishna.
Thank you for coming today evening. And we will today meditate on and analyse one of the most visually depicted pastimes of Krishna. So, Krishna’s pastimes are themselves very dramatic.
But generally if you look at pictures, traditionally as well as contemporarily, there are a few pictures which are most prominent when you think of Krishna Ila. One is maybe as Makhan Chor, stealing butter. Another is as Kaliya Daman, dancing on the hoods of Kaliya.
Another is Ras Nila, which is very common. And one more is Govardhan. So, this pastime itself is very dramatic.
And we will discuss about not so much the drama, but we will discuss more the psychology of the characters. And we will see how through the drama, Krishna rectifies the thinking of Indra. So, this whole story is at one level almost absurd.
Absurd means that Krishna is the Supreme Lord. And it is by his arrangement that Indra is the king of the gods. And Indra is the king of the gods is respectable.
And the Vrajavasis are doing Indra puja. And Krishna comes and tells them that there is no need to worship Indra. So, just if we try to contemplate what Krishna is doing, I will take three different frames of analysis to explain this.
First is, say imagine Janmashtami is coming. And suppose a particular senior devotee has the privilege as the service of say maybe the first Janmashtami Aarti. And the darshan comes out, they do that.
And then suppose one year suddenly the devotee is told you will not do the Aarti. And then who is going to do that? Somebody who is utterly insignificant. Somebody who is a new devotee whose name also you don’t know.
Hey, what’s going on? First of all, if we are given some honour regularly, what happens is, the human psychology is that when we get something regularly, we start thinking that we deserve it. So, it’s not by qualification we think I deserve it. It’s more by the regularity of getting it.
I think I deserve it. And then don’t get it, it’s infuriating. So, Indra was much more than snubbed over here.
And it is quite absurd what Krishna did. I’m using the word absurd deliberately. I’m talking about this from the perspective of Indra.
It was not absurd, it was outrageous. Okay, this is the puja that I deserve. And it’s taken away from him.
And then it’s one thing if we are given something regularly, it’s taken away. And it’s given to somebody worthy. But instead of me, it’s a hill being worshipped.
A hill of all things. What is this? Suppose, Indian cricket team is there, there is a very prominent batsman who is normally there in the team always. And that person is dropped.
And somebody who is not even qualified for national cricket, leave alone international cricket, club player is brought in this place. What kind of outrage is that? Now, when Krishna wants to, so Krishna through this pastime demonstrates that he can do everything perfectly. There are some people who push our buttons.
They just, whatever they speak, whatever they do, it just makes us angry. There are like, scientists say there are about 1 billion nerves in our body. And some people seem to have done a PhD in how to agitate all the 1 billion nerves.
They speak in a way that is infuriating. So, there will be different people who can provoke, but nobody can provoke like Krishna. Nobody can pacify like Krishna when Krishna wants to pacify.
We might be very agitated and we suddenly remember Krishna. And the whole agitation can go away. But if Krishna wants to provoke, in everything he is the best.
So, first he just snubs Indira. And snubs him in such an outrageous way that is replaced by a hill. And as if that were not bad enough.
Krishna also uses false reasoning to justify it. What is the false reasoning? Actually, Krishna, he tells the Brajwasis, why are you worshipping Indira? If you do your karma, Indira is bound to give rains. You don’t have to worship him.
This is technically called the philosophy. Does anyone know the name? Karma Mimamsa. Karma Mimamsa, you could say it is almost like, it’s more a mechanical vision of nature rather than a personal vision of nature.
Mechanical vision means what? Say, if you have a food vending machine or sometimes in airports you have a food vending or water selling machine. So, now there might be some operator over there sitting. But if you insert the money and then you press the button, the water has to come, the food has to come.
So, this is mechanical operation. The person might be there to oversee, but if you have paid the money, if you have pressed the button, you have to get it. So, Krishna in a sense propagates this mechanical vision of nature.
If you do the yajna, sorry, if you do your karma, if you are doing your duty, then Indira has to give rains. You don’t have to do anything more. So, now this is not the conclusion of the Vedas.
So, here we see something very dramatic which illustrates how important context is. That here we see the absolute truth does not speak the absolute truth. So, even when the absolute truth is speaking, we have to look at the context.
Context is critical for comprehending the content. What is being spoken depends on in what context it is being spoken. And many times people take verses out of context to justify whatever they want to argue for.
And this can happen anywhere. So, here we worship Krishna as the absolute truth, but we don’t consider these words of Krishna as the absolute truth. Because Krishna is speaking here not as an Acharya teaching the Vaishnava Siddhanta or the Shastra Siddhanta.
Krishna is here speaking just to persuade the Brajwasis. And he uses a specious logic. So, sometimes when somebody, say we are doing a particular service and somebody takes that service and gives to somebody else.
And then we get angry. Why did you do that? And they give some reasoning. And first of all that we are deprived, we are annoyed by that.
And if the reasoning that they give, that doesn’t make sense. Then that makes us even more angry. What is this? It’s like, sometimes it’s a, I was at a conflict resolution session once.
Like I was a mediation. So, one person spoke something and another person speak. So, the other person said, if you want to lie, at least speak a believable lie.
So, sometimes it may happen that you give a reason, but it’s an utterly unreasonable reason. Then that makes you even more angry. So, what happens is that Indra becomes even more provoked.
He says, this is a stupid reason. It’s not even the proper philosophy. And then the Vrajavasis try to save the day.
They try to, you could say, save Indra’s face. And they say, yes, Krishna, what you are saying, we should do a Govardhan puja? He says, yes, but let us do this Indra puja. Then after that we will prepare the paraphernalia.
And then we will do Govardhan puja. And Krishna says, nothing doing. He says, there is absolutely no need to worship Indra.
Just worship Govardhan. So, it’s like another example. Somebody is expecting some prasad.
And they are waiting. And say, we are cooking. And he says, there is another guest.
You give the prasad to them. He says, no, no, we will give the prasad to this person. And then we can prepare another plate.
There is no need to feed this person. Just feed that person only. And this person is hungry.
What is this? So, Krishna, he is expert at everything. And he is expert even at provocation. If Krishna wants to make us angry, he can just press all the buttons.
He is omniscient. He just knows how to make someone angry. So here, now why would Krishna do that? Now why would Krishna provoke Indra like that? There is a reason.
You see, all of us, in normal situations, we all can behave in, we can all put our good face in front. We can all behave like gentlemen and ladies when things are going on normally. But it is when we are provoked that the side of us that we keep concealed, it comes out.
So it is said that provocations introduce us to us. Provocations also introduce us to others. Of course, it is not that who we are when we are provoked is the completers.
But it is also not who we are in normal situations is the completers. So you can say provocations bring out our lower side, bring out our dark side. It brings out the side of us which we normally keep concealed.
Now at one level, such concealing is not necessarily bad. This difference between the internal and the external, it is there in everyone. What we think, what we desire and how we act.
There is a gap between the two. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It is also a sign of a civilised society that whatever impulses, whatever desires that come up within us, we don’t act on them.
We cannot see each other’s thoughts. And that is a great blessing. If we started seeing each other’s thoughts, desires, cravings, you think like that about me.
You have that kind of desires. These are the kind of fantasies you entertain. If we all started seeing each other’s hearts, if we all started seeing each other’s thoughts, not a single relationship could be sustained.
So nature has given us a buffer by which many things might come up, might occur inside us. But our thoughts remain invisible till they manifest in the physical. And by that, what happens is we all can behave in a cultured way.
Of course, there is a difference between external and internal. At one level, we could say it is a sign of a cultured or civilised society. But we have to understand what is the intention over here.
The intention could be that I act in a civilised way so that I actually become civilised. That means it is a discipline. Okay.
I don’t want to be like an uncouth person who yells at others although I am feeling like doing that right now. But I will control myself. And gradually my anger will also come under control.
So this gap can be because we are disciplined. And gradually we might remove the dark within us. Or the gap could be if it’s on the discipline side, it’s good.
It’s positive. But discipline will lead to purification. On the negative side, it could be because of hypocrisy.
That means we want to act in a cultured way till the other person lets their guard down. And the moment they let their guard down, we pounce on them. So somebody is very greedy and they want to steal money.
But somebody from whom they want to steal money, they drop some pennies, they drop some notes and you go and give it back. And when you do that, oh, you are a trustworthy person. So you act as if you have no greed for the other person.
So you give as a small, small amount and the other person lowers the guard and then you steal a big amount. So this gap between the external and internal, why that is, that is something which each person has to introspect within their heart. That gap will be there for all of us unless we are pure devotees.
Then we could say that outside and inside is entirely the same. But the point here is that we all have some darkness within us. Now with that darkness also, there are limits.
That means when I get angry, when I get greedy, when any of these anarthas start coming within us, when they express themselves also, to what extent will someone go when they express themselves? That will vary from person to person. Some people when they get angry, they might just grind their teeth and you can see their nerves swelling over here and they are clenching their fists. There is some restrained physical expression.
Some people when they get angry, then it’s like the tongue loses whatever break it has. Just speak anything and everything. It’s a verbal assault.
It’s like a verbal machine gun. In America, there is a lot of concern because many people have guns. I was in a college, I was giving a talk and I turned to look at the slide and I looked, there was nobody in the class.
I said, what happened? And then somebody pulled me off the chair. So what had happened, there was a gun alert and everybody had dug under the chair. And one of them came to me, he also dug under the chair.
So later on, it turned out that it was actually a test to check whether people comply or not. There were no gunmen over there but they wanted to check whether people comply or not. But anyway, so if somebody has a gun, then they can be very dangerous.
They can just go around and shoot and kill many people. So if somebody is carrying a gun, they have to be very cautious. So actually we all carry a gun within us and that is our tongue.
The tongue can shoot, shoot and shoot. When we get angry, we can deliver the best speech that we will ever regret. Actually anger can make some people very articulate.
They just express themselves. And I have this issue. Because I am a writer, I am quite articulate.
So I can analyse issues very well but when I want to criticise, I can criticise also very bitingly. So I have to be very careful about it. But anyway, the point is that there are different levels of aggression I am talking about.
So somebody might become verbally aggressive. Some people might become physically aggressive. They might take things and throw at each other.
Some people might not just take things and throw, may punch at someone. Some people might take a knife and attack someone. Some people might take a gun and attack someone.
So basically all these are different degrees. Now all of us have anger but based on our culture, based on our upbringing, based on our conscience, even when we get angry, there will be certain limits within which we will express our anger. There are certain things which we might do but there are certain things which we will not do.
So now what are the limits for someone? That also reveals their character, their personality, the substance of who they are. So now Krishna wanted to expose how deep was the pride of Indra. So Krishna provoked.
So sometimes provocations, as I said what happens, provocations introduce us to us. And us to us means or introduce us to others. But the dark side of us which we conceal normally.
When we are provoked, it comes out. So now we all have a dark side but how dark is the dark side? That we can come to know under provocation. How dark is the dark side within us or how dark is the dark side in someone else? So Indra because he was the king of gods, he was in a respectable and worshipable position and his pride was not so immediately visible to anyone.
Yeah of course he is in a respectable position, he is to be respected. So somebody like even the spiritual master might be sitting on a big asana and doing the pada puja might be happening. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they are proud.
Some spiritual master can also become proud. But just if somebody is in an external respectable position does not necessarily mean that they are proud. So in devotee culture it is a culture of offering respect and honour to each other.
So in a devotee culture how do we practise humility? So at one side you are told to be humble but at another side you are also told to offer respect to each other. So if everybody offers respect to us how do we stay humble then? So actually humility means to accept honour but to not expect honour. That means if somebody offers us respect we accept it.
Not because we deserve it but because Krishna has put us in a position where the culture makes us see that we accept that. But if we start expecting it. So if I come into the temple and look who all are bowing down to me.
Who is not bowing down to me? Offender. If somebody starts thinking like that there is very little Krishna consciousness in their conduct. So if somebody offers respect we accept it.
But humility means we don’t expect it and certainly we don’t demand it. Some people their very behaviour is they act like a pure devotee. It’s almost like they are carrying a marker on their forehead.
Pure devotee offer dandavat. They speak very advanced leelas of Krishna. They act as if they are very very advanced.
And then you see that actually they are all doing all this to crave for honour. That is unfortunate. The point I am making is Indra was respected.
Just because somebody is receiving respect or somebody is being given or somebody is taking honour. That does not necessarily mean some of you can come ahead. There is lot of space here.
I don’t know many of you behind are struggling to see me. I am also struggling to see you. If you want you can come ahead.
You can move the chairs ahead also if you like. So how do we know when somebody is proud? It is in a provoking situation. So what Krishna is doing sometimes if somebody is proud because of their behaviour because they are in respectable position.
Others may or may not recognise that this person has become proud. And there are different levels of you could say deception. Sometimes we deceive others.
But sometimes our attempt at deceiving others is so convincing that we end up deceiving ourselves. That means sometimes we tell lies knowing that it is a lie. Sometimes we tell a lie believing that it is the truth.
The human mind can work in such a way that sometimes some honest people can speak untruths. And it is not that they are being manipulative. It is just the way the mind works.
Often what happens the bad that has happened to us we have a long memory about it. And the bad that has been done by us we have a short memory about it. So that’s why when we tell something about how it happened it might appear as if we are blameless.
Now it’s not that we sometimes we might do it intentionally but sometimes we might just do it. It just happens. So the point I am making here is that sometimes somebody might be proud but even they themselves might not realise they are proud.
Somebody might be greedy but they themselves might not realise they are greedy. So sometimes like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says the weeds that grow they are sometimes exactly identical to the creeper of devotion. You just can’t identify it.
So if somebody is getting a lot of money, somebody is getting a lot of honours. Now whether they are taking it for themselves or they are taking it as representatives of Krishna on Krishna’s behalf. We don’t know.
We can’t know in advance. And sometimes not only can others not know sometimes that person also is difficult to know. If say once one of the senior spiritual masters in our movement he was asked the same question that we are told to be humble but then devotees glorify us so much.
So how do we maintain our humility? So the Maharaj said that actually Prabhu you are so glorious that we all should glorify you. In fact if we don’t glorify you we will fall down. And then he added but if you believe that glorification you will fall down.
So the idea is that it’s a culture. So does it mean that it’s lies? It’s not lies. If somebody is doing something glorious we recognise that.
But we understand that I am an instrument. I am not the cause. So I am grateful that Krishna is using me as an instrument.
But if I start taking sole credit for what I am doing then I will become proud. So the point is that sometimes we may have some anartha and we ourselves may not realise that we have that anartha. But when we are provoked that is the time the anartha within comes out and even the magnitude of the anartha how much it is that comes out.
So what happened in the case of Indra was that he Krishna wanted Indra to realise for himself how much pride he had got. How arrogant he had become because of his position. How much of a mentality of entitlement he had got in today’s parlance.
Actually it’s a difficult question to answer universally. But it seems that the nature of humanity is that a certain amount of deprivation is essential for motivation. If you are living in a very comfortable situation it is very difficult to be motivated.
A certain amount of deprivation motivates us. And when that deprivation is not there, when there is abundance then the motivation may go down. So for example this I have read about surveys in America.
This might be true in UK also that generally if immigrants come to a country then they because they have left their home and they have come to a distant place they work very hard to build their career. So on an average say if Asians, generally Indians, Americans, people from Indian subcontinent they do very well in academics. I mean I was at Ivy League University and in fact there is a case against Harvard right now because what is happening is they want to have diversity.
They say if we leave everything to merit the whole Harvard will be filled with only Indians and Chinese people. Because they are so brilliant. But then what is happening sometimes a highly qualified Indian boy, super qualified, he did not get into Harvard.
And now his parents have made a case against him. And now many Asians, many Indians, Chinese have joined for that case. So the point is that in general say if immigrants have come, say if students come to a different country for study then their motivation level is very high.
I have left my home, I have come here to study. And as compared to the natives, they excel far far more. But then if they settle down, this advantage which immigrant students have over native students that more or less disappears in three generations.
That means if somebody has been in say America for three generations and say they are Indians but their kids they don’t have that level of motivation. So they may be good naturally, genetically they may be gifted. But that zeal that goes down.
So a certain level of deprivation is sometimes necessary for motivation. And abundance of provisions can actually make us complacent, can actually weaken us. So sometimes if we don’t get honour, if we regularly are honoured, that might take away our motivation.
So now what is the exact level of deprivation? Now if somebody is too deprived, they might just become discouraged, disheartened and just quit. So what is optimal that will vary from person to person, situation to situation. But in the case of Indra, what happened was that he had so much honour that it went to his head.
And even he didn’t realise it. At one level, because he is in a respectable position, he is expected to be honoured. But he is also expected to know that this is not just for me.
He forgot that. And Krishna wanted to reveal to Indra how much this pride, this craving for respect had dominated him. And that is why Krishna provoked him.
So Krishna’s provocation, so I talked about Indra’s psychology and then I am talking about also Krishna’s psychology. So actually it was an outrageous thing, an absurd and outrageous thing from Indra’s perspective. What happened? And why did Krishna do something absurd we could say? But Krishna had his purpose.
And when we look at it from a limited perspective, sometimes some situations come in our life that just don’t make sense. You may pray to Krishna for something and something just the opposite of that happens. So you say, is Krishna answering my prayers? What is going on? So we have thought of a path in our life and we pray to Krishna, Krishna please remove the obstacles from this path.
And we pray and suddenly a bigger obstacle than what we had thought of comes up over there. Hey, what’s going on? Now we see the road up to a particular point. But Krishna sees the road through and through.
So what might seem like a barrier for us, there might be a big ditch, there might be a big marsh, there might be a big swamp over there ahead. We can’t see it. So what appears to be like a barrier for us with our finite vision, can from a bigger perspective appear to be, turn out to be a protector.
But we can’t see it at that time. So sometimes when Krishna seems, things seem to be happening in such a way, just one thing after another after another seems to be provoking us, seems to be frustrating us. Say, where is Krishna? What is going on? Now Krishna does have a plan.
So Krishna had a plan and Indra, he got provoked. It was, Krishna decided to provoke Indra. Indra, he just got so provoked.
Generally, one principle of justice is that the punishment should be proportionate to the crime. Not proportionate to the outrage felt at the crime. If somebody has done something wrong and nobody knows about it, nobody complains about it and they are punished a little bit.
But somebody does something wrong and then the whole media comes to know about it. Nowadays in social media, what might catch attention, what might become viral, we don’t know. If something becomes viral and then somebody has done something wrong and everybody condemns them and sometimes the government also, the judges also get carried away, then they might punish the person far more than what is normal because in response to the outrage.
So generally, justice, even if somebody has done something wrong, the punishment has to be proportional to the crime, whatever it is. But here we see Indra’s anger leads to, it’s like a sequence, his pride is there. So generally, pride basically what does it mean? It means an entitlement mentality that I deserve this honour and if I don’t get it, so just see pride is also a desire, lust is also a desire.
It’s said that the ego, what we desire by that is like subtle sex. What it means is in lust, we desire a physical object for gratification. In pride, we desire a subtler object for gratification.
That is praise, honour, position, distinction. Now just as kama has a anuja, who is kama anuja? Does anyone know? Anuja is a younger brother. So anger, krodha, kama anuja, like we have Ramanujacharya.
So Ramanuja is actually said to be Lakshman, the younger brother of Rama. So kama anuja is krodha. That means where there is strong craving, when that craving is not fulfilled, anger will come.
धयतो विशयान्पुम्सः संगस्ते शुपजायते संगात् संजायते कामः कामन् क्रोधो भिजायते So desire leads to anger. And similarly, pride is also a desire for something subtler, for honour. So in pride, just as when lust is frustrated, it will lead to anger, pride also when frustrated leads to anger.
And then Indra’s anger comes out. And that anger is, he is outraged by what has happened, but Indra’s anger is outrageously disproportional. It is like say, now I give the earlier example.
Say if somebody is supposed to serve food and instead you give somebody else the food. It is understandable that person gets angry. But suppose that person gets so angry that person takes a machine gun and starts shooting everyone around.
How dare you take away my food? That’s outrageous. So Indra, you could say, yes he could have got angry at what happened. But what did he do? He just unleashed the fiercest powers at his disposal.
The fiercest powers. He started showering torrential rains. Not only rains, he started seeing fierce storms, scary lightning, horrifying thunderbolts.
The combined wrath of nature just descended on Govardhan. It is like, suppose there are some heads of state today who are notorious to be uncontrolled. Somebody insults that person and that person, just because of some countries, another country insults him and because of that this person sends nuclear weapons on that country and destroys the whole country.
That’s completely out of proportion. So Indra, he uses all the celestial powers at his command to destroy Vrindavan. To destroy Vrindavan completely.
And it’s shocking how far he can go. I can understand when angry, but to what extent? If you consider, the devatas are also not free from force. Devatas also have lust, they also have greed, they also have anger.
But generally, the difference between the devatas and the demons are, the devatas live within limits. Devatas also have apsaras, they also have celestial delights in heavens. But devatas don’t go and abduct women.
They also have those desires, but it’s within limits. Whereas the asuras, when the desires come, they go beyond limits. So actually in a sense, dharma is about many things.
Dharma is about both a bond and a boundary. A bond means, this is how I should act. A boundary means, beyond this I should not act.
So like when we take initiation, the bond is chant 16 rounds. The boundary is follow the 4 regs. So dharma is both a bond and a boundary.
The bond is how we should act, the boundary is how we should not act. And generally, devatas live within dharma. And when we talk about the boundaries, all of us need certain boundaries.
Actually, we need to protect, we need to protect the fences that protect us. Whatever it may be. Every culture, society has certain norms of behaviour.
And if people act within those norms, then things move forward. So what happens with Indra is that his anger becomes completely disproportionate. And it’s not just disproportionate in terms of what he is using to express the anger.
It’s disproportionate in terms of who he is targeting also. He is not just targeting Krishna, he is targeting all the Brajwasis. He wants to destroy all of Vrindavan.
And this is extremely dangerous. So for all of us, when we are provoked, what we do or what we can do reveals the dark side within us. And at one level, sometimes we may hear about Indra and how he acted.
He says, what an arrogant person he is. Or we see the characters in scripture and we say, what kind of person is this? How could they act like this? But it’s not just they can act like that. Any of us can act like that.
So in one sense, we need to have, Prabhupada said, have a healthy fear of maya. So another way it could be that we need to be terrified of how terrible we can be. So that we never become that terrible.
Be terrified of how terrible you can be. That means sometimes we see in even devotee circle, some devotee does something. We think, how can a devotee act like that? That’s reprehensible.
Of course, if something is wrong, a terrible action, it’s a terrible action. But instead of simply, there is a word, Adharify. Adharify means treat the person like Adhar.
As if, you know this, what kind of species is this? I don’t know who this is. Instead of treating the person like that, what kind of person would do like that? We understand that actually, if provoked, if this devotee could act like this, maybe I can also act like that. So I never want to be like that.
So be terrified of how terrible we can be. So that we never become that terrible. So Indra shows us that negative example.
Indra is not a bad person. He is a devata and he is a good person overall. But even when we are good and there is a dark side within us.
Sometimes we let the dark side grow and grow and grow. But we continue to live a good life. But if we are not fighting against the dark side, we are letting it grow, letting it grow.
Eventually it will express itself in ugly way. And how ugly it may be, it can be horrifying. So what this story reveals is how Krishna introduces Indra to his dark side so that he can get rid of that dark side.
So how he gets rid of that dark side, we will discuss after the break. I will quickly summarise till now what I spoke and we have a few questions before we go for Juhlan. So I spoke on this theme today of how Krishna is expert at everything.
He is expert at provoking also. So Krishna does something outrageous. And from psychological perspective, Indra’s anger was entirely justified.
He was outrageously snubbed. The worship that was meant for him was given to something utterly insignificant like a hill. Like the food which is meant to be given to a very respectable person is given to somebody utterly unknown.
So anything like that. And not only that, Krishna used a false logic to do that. Like if you lie, at least tell a believable lie.
So Krishna didn’t even do that. So that’s even more provoking. So now it’s understandable that Indra got provoked.
Now why did Krishna provoke like this? Because, that was an elaborate part of the class, that we all have a dark side in us. In normal situations we behave in a cultured way. And that gap is good if we are doing it as a discipline so that we become purified.
But that gap can also be because of hypocrisy. We are concealing the dark so that we can pounce and others lower their guard. Now we might be somewhere in between.
So when provocations come, then the dark within us pops out. And at that time, how dark is the dark within us, we come to know. So provocations introduce us to ourselves, introduce us to others.
So sometimes the anarthas are such that others can’t detect them. Humility means we may accept honour but we don’t expect honour. But when somebody is expecting honour, how do you know? So sometimes others cannot detect the anartha, sometimes we might deceive ourselves so much that we believe our lies.
And then we also don’t know the presence of the anartha. That’s when if a provocation comes, then the anartha comes out. And I talked about how when the anartha comes out, based on our culture there will be limits within which we express it.
So I might just yell at someone and they are angry or somebody might take a machine gun and kill someone and they are angry. So how much is the anger within one someone, that is revealed when they are provoked. So dharma is both a bond about how we should act and a boundary.
Even when we are provoked, don’t go beyond this, how we should not act. So Krishna provoked Indra and then Indra used justice. Even if we are angry, justice has to be proportionate to the crime, not the proportion to the outrage felt at the crime.
Indra used all his celestial power to exterminate everyone in Vrindavan, exterminate Vrindavan itself. And that was utterly disproportionate. So rather than otherifying Indra, we understand that this is how terrible even we can become.
And we need to be terrified of how terrible we can be so that we never become that terrible. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
Do we have time for questions? Take a break for 15 minutes. So 7.20? 7.25? 7.20. So we will have questions at that time. It will be probably more than 7.10 to 10.30. It will be probably more than 7.10 to 10.30. Hare Krishna.

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

Sometimes it could be buried emotion like psychological emotions, childhood emotions, patterns, suppressed emotions that haven't been dealt with and that when it comes to a situation you react kind of incoherently. So my question is, is it the lust always or is it suppressed emotions from other things that haven't been dealt with causes also anger in some way? Okay, so when we get angry, is it just because of say lust or could it be suppressed emotions that have been not dealt with? Yeah, of course, when you start studying anything, everything can be endlessly complex. That means somebody says alcoholic.

Now we could say this person is just weak-willed. That could be an explanation for some people. For some people it might be that they are going through such unbearable suffering in their lives that alcohol offers the only available escape way for them.

So for some people to give up alcoholism is just maybe increasable power. For some people just get out of the bad crowd. Some people are social drinkers.

These want to fit into a group and that's why they drink. They change their social circle and there are people who don't drink, they stop drinking. So their drinking is not so much a craving for alcohol as it's a craving for acceptance.

And for acceptance they are drinking. For somebody else when they are drinking, now while drinking for acceptance gradually they might become so hooked that they might actually become alcoholic. But even if they use some willpower and get over their alcoholism unless that need for belonging, that craving for acceptance is dealt with in a healthy way they might go and get away from alcoholism and they might get into something else.

Similarly, say if somebody is having a very stressful or distressful life and they need an escape way or they need some relief and alcoholism is their relief. Unless they find a healthier way of getting relief maybe that could be meditation, maybe that could be exercise, maybe that could be prayer, maybe that could be counseling, it could be spiritualization of one's conscience, whatever. Unless one finds a healthier way of dealing with that, a healthier way of finding relief they will gravitate backwards.

It's not a matter of will or lack of will. So at one level you could say that every unhealthy desire is a distorted expression of a healthy need. Even when somebody is extremely lusty, they behave like animals it could be that, it could be fear of loneliness, it could be buried anger at somebody who rejected them or whatever.

We don't know. So we have to have a multi-dimensional approach for dealing with issues. Now in general discussion we use broad categories and those broad categories are not wrong.

It's just that they may not be exhaustive. They may not be complete at times. So if somebody is lusty or greedy or angry, now that's the way it's expressing.

But what is behind that, it also has to be analyzed. Sometimes it might just be you deal with that and it's over. Sometimes it might be there is much more below that.

So it is not a black and white thing. Each person has to see what's going on. It's definitely sometimes when a small thing provokes an irrational anger within someone.

Then it's not that they are short-tempered but maybe that thing reminds them of something which they have a lot of buried anger, suppressed anger. So then we have to see. That's why self-observation is foundational for self-reformation.

It's not just that you follow some rules and you become purified. To some extent it will happen. But self-observation is required to understand yourself.

Okay, this is what is going on actually. And if say purification or attainment of spiritual consciousness were just a matter of ticking a certain set of to-do's then there would be no personal element of consciousness in it. Personal element of consciousness is not only we have to become more conscious of Krishna we also have to become more conscious of ourselves.

Yes, definitely buried issues can be there. But in a general framework we use the broad labels, broad categories to understand based on expressed behaviours. Yes, genetics also play a role.

Like somebody could be genetically disposed to be more in the mode of passion and prayer. So it's just genetic and some people don't. It's just their biological framework that doesn't work.

Can some people be genetically disposed toward anger? Yes, definitely. And it's also likely that those who get angry will say that I'm genetically disposed. So we have to be very careful whenever we outsource blame for our actions to something else.

It is at one level comforting, I'm not to be blamed, something else to be blamed. But every time we outsource blame for our actions we are also outsourcing power over those actions. So we might say I'm going scot-free but actually I'm disempowering myself also.

So how much is it genetic? There are many factors which impel us. But nothing compels us. Impel is to push.

Compel is to force. We are pushed, we can be pushed by our upbringing, we can be pushed by our genes, we can be pushed by the community around us, environment, all those things. But we are not forced.

We do have free will. And free will means when we are pushed we can resist. We can even counter-push.

So it's said, I write on the Gita every day, Gita daily. So one article I wrote on that. Our past can explain our emotions but it doesn't excuse our actions.

So why I feel angry like this? Maybe there is a past. But if I give in to that anger and do something brutal then that, whatever be the past, that's not acceptable. So we can use it to understand ourselves better.

But not to justify what we are doing. Thank you. Yes.

How can we help a person who is two players up or it could be two devotees and their relationship might be getting ruined because one person clears up and generally a person who clears up, they are in no mood to, you know, if you try to explain to them that their behaviour is wrong or they want to blame the other person. So how do we help people in such situations? Yeah, if somebody, some devotee or somebody tends to clear up, how do we help them? I was at a place and everybody there had a lot of complaints about the leader. The leader gets very angry and yells at everyone and hurts everyone.

So then I was close to that devotee somewhat. So I raised that concern. So immediately he said, I don't have anger issues.

People just need to start listening to me. So what happens sometimes is that we feel that my anger is justified. Now even if it is, our anger will be justified, but the way we express that anger may not be justified.

So it's a delicate decision that whether the person wants to be helped or whether the person wants to justify what they are doing. Now most devotees, it's never black and white. There is a part of us which wants to defend what I am doing.

There is a part of us which wants to correct what we are doing. So if we are in an observer kind of position, then a lot will depend on our relationship with that person. And if we can generally see, there is the person, there is their impression, their anartha and then there is their behavior.

Now these three are distinct things. So what is very alienating is if we take a behavior and move from that on to an impression or we give a label to that impression and then we label that person like that. If I come and tell someone, Prabhu because you are so short tempered, everybody is abandoning this project.

I am not short tempered. That is the first reaction that comes up. So what happens is we need to separate these three.

When we fix a label on a person, immediately that person becomes defensive. So what we need to see is this particular start with factual behavior as far as possible. When this happened and then you did this, that devotee was terrified.

That devotee felt as if, whatever, start with facts. Now generally, even the facts can be argued about, but broadly speaking there can be an agreement. So generally we need to start with something as objective as possible.

And then from that, when you are talking about the impression, at that time don't say I am here. Don't conflate the impression with the person. Not that I am here and you are a short tempered person.

Rather I am here, you are here and this is the impression. So I am your partner in helping you fight with this. You are a good person, but this anger or this particular impression that is there, that is something which is troubling.

So if we do like that, that means start with specific behavior and so first separate the three. We often conflate the three. And then it just becomes too much of an attack for the person to tolerate that.

So separate the three. First begin with the behavior and then the impression that is there, the anapha that is there. Don't equate with them, but rather say that this is there and maybe we could work on this.

And generally people need to recognize their own triggers and their tipping points. Trigger means this particular situation tends to make me angry. Now sometimes the triggers might be situations, sometimes triggers might be people and tipping point means, from the trigger we start getting angry, but tipping point means we just lose all sense.

From the trigger to the tipping point is a journey. It can go within a moment, it can go over a few hours, but if at the trigger itself we start checking, now this is going to trigger me, say if somebody has had a difficult day, they have dealt with 10 difficult issues, and then somebody comes with something annoying, and you just get exploded. Now when you know I am already tired, let's talk about this tomorrow.

Know the trigger and try to keep a distance from it. So what I am saying is that if we stand here with them, then we can help them to identify the triggers. Don't just criticize their behavior, but help them to identify the triggers.

And then, for that person, most devotees are sincere. But when we have anarthas, when we have anger or greed, it's almost like fighting an invisible enemy. It's like when that enemy came, when it attacked me, and normally an enemy come and attack us, but this is an enemy who doesn't attack us, who takes us over and then makes us do things.

So if we can provide people tools to fight this invisible enemy, then they are ready to fight it. So if we can help them identify their triggers, and once the trigger comes, what do you do at that time? So there is a trigger and there is an anchor. Trigger is what agitates us.

Anchor is what calms us. So it's impossible to… Another example you could use here for a trigger is like a wave in an ocean. When a wave comes and if we are in the ocean, we can't fight the wave.

If we try to use, the wave is coming but I'll not be shaken by it. It won't work. But if we turn and find some anchor and use our energy to hold on to that anchor, then the wave won't sweep us away.

So similarly, we help them to identify an anchor. Maybe when you start feeling agitated, maybe hear some kirtan or hear some class, maybe hear some passage from some class which you have liked. Maybe look at the picture of your favorite deities.

Find something which can occupy their consciousness, which can absorb their consciousness. Then what happens? That anchor can help them counter the effect of the trigger. So rather than just telling people don't do this, we have to help them identify the trigger and help them identify their anchor.

It's like you identify the invisible enemy and then you identify the weapon with which you defend yourself from the invisibility. Then people, those who want to be helped, they can be helpful. But sometimes what can we do? If people just don't feel they need help, then they have to learn their own lessons, unfortunately.

Okay, what do we do now? Okay, I think we'll take the questions. Prabhu, can you talk about something about how often a devotee should introspect and how it is going to really help? All the time, yes. But in certain situations, you have steps.

How often should a devotee introspect? I sometimes feel a little uncomfortable with any should question. Because what happens, what works for one person very well may not work so well for another person. So there are certain standard practices in bhakti and there can be many additional practices that can help us.

But because each of us is an individual, we can see what helps us. So broadly speaking, doing some kind of review is very helpful. So, even when I am very busy, I try to do what I call a best-worst review.

That means four things. What was the best thing that happened in my life today? What was the worst thing that happened today? What was the best thing that I did? What was the worst thing that I did? So what happens by this? Even if we can't go through the whole day, let us go through that. This was such a wonderful thing that happened.

Sometimes good things happen to us and we forget about them. We remember them, we can feel grateful, we can feel that life is not so terrible. Otherwise our mind can make us so negative.

What are the best things that happened? Even if we look at our memory, our past is not like a flat, endless plateau. If we look at the past, what do we remember? We remember that which is out of the ordinary. We remember the valleys or the peaks.

So what we are trying to do is, we are just trying to look at those. So this was the best thing. Why was this the best? You can just do a little bit of thinking if you want.

Why did I like this so much? Why am I so happy about this? What was the worst thing that happened? Oh, you know, this happened, but why was I so upset about it? That way you can maybe understand yourself better. So then what are the best things that I did today? Sometimes we maybe were tempted and we controlled ourselves or maybe we worked hard and did some service, made some nice offering, faced difficulties, whatever. What are the best things that I did? And then what are the worst things that I did? So the worst thing also cautions us, okay, this is the direction which I might go, I should not go in that direction.

So if you just do these four things, that's enough for most of us. Somebody who is habitually more introspective, they might go deeper and they might go over the whole day and look at various incidents and look at that. That takes time and we have to see whether how productive it is for each one of us.

But some level of review of our service, of our day is helpful. If the person do his own introspective, then it's hard when somebody tells, the person will not really understand. So it's up to us to understand the situation.

Sometimes we may not understand what the person is saying until and unless you understand yourself. Okay, yeah, that's true. Like I said earlier, sometimes we believe our own lies.

So like that, we believe that my anger is not my problem, it is this person's problem. So, yes, we can help the unable, but we can't help the unwilling. If somebody wants to do, but they are not able to do it, we can help them.

But if somebody is unwilling, we can't help them. Now, of course, we shouldn't assume that people are unwilling, but if we try to help them and they don't, then yes, then we can't do much about it. So it could be that the person is completely unaware, the person is a little bit aware and the person is already very aware.

If they are already aware and then they get some resources to deal with it, they are so grateful. So when they are little aware, then first the problem has to be explained to them, little bit more. Then they start seeing the relevance.

But sometimes if they are not at all aware, then maybe they have to go through the school of hard knocks before they can become aware. Yeah, right. Yeah, we'll come to you.

Oh, you said, I thought you'd take questions till the end. Okay. Okay, right now, how many questions do we have? One, two… Sorry? Okay, okay.

Let's take these three, then we have enough. If we're going to… She didn't have a question. Okay, please tell me, yeah.

No, I'd like to ask that also, it's important that we don't look only onto the trigger, what triggers us, but what is the root cause of the trigger? Because sometimes we can be triggered by something because of something. So, for example, we see somebody that is not expert in the service that we want to do, and we are triggered by this, and okay, we are triggered, but what are we triggered by this? Because we are lacking, well, someone who has more than we have, and that's how we can deal with it, like, okay, the trigger is there. But if we are just aware of the trigger, then we won't know what to do about it, but we need to explore the root cause to know if there is something, and what is there something that we can do.

That's true, good point. You shouldn't just look at the trigger. See, the trigger, every battle has to begin somewhere, and we need to begin it where it is winnable.

So, if we start beginning, in general, beginning with the internals is very difficult. So, at least, okay, this is what provokes me, let me keep a distance from it, and after I keep a distance, when I am not so provoked, then I can introspect. Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita says, the process of self-control begins with external regulation.

Begin first by regulating the senses, and after you regulate the senses, say, if somebody is an alcoholic, and now they could have deep-rooted issues of loneliness or whatever, but if their home, if their home is next to a bar, now, how much can they introspect when the temptations are right next to them? If they want to introspect and find out what is going on inside, that can happen only when they are reasonably away from the trigger. So, yes, identifying the triggers is not, is never sufficient, but often it is a necessary first step, necessary so at least we can get the basic level of peace of mind so that we can look inwards. Yes, both, begin and then go deeper.

Thank you. Yes, please. How to control anger when nothing is working out? Well, it's like, it's like the question itself says there is no answer to the question.

Well, I understand where you are coming from. I have also been in those situations. And it's like we have to try something till something works.

It's, life doesn't, it's, you know, Maya, you could say, doesn't fight fair. It's not that you come with this weapon, I'll come with this weapon, let's have a fair fight. We come with a weapon, say, we come with a sword fight, we come for a sword fight, and Maya comes with a machine gun.

What does a sword do at that time? So, the forces of illusion are often like that, that they don't fight fair. So, we have to find what works. And that's why, and that's why we could have, during our normal time, have an array of things.

This, this, this, this, try something till it works. And sometimes, okay, the anger is there, we explode. But then, after it has happened, that time it might just be not possible to do anything.

But next time. Okay, what, what put me in that role? Sometimes, that situation can't be rectified at that point. It's just gone to a point of no return.

But what we can do is, next time, I can stop it before it comes to this point. It's like if a truck is moving very fast, it's like a horse, you know, say the horses are like the senses, and the charioteer is like the intelligence. So, sometimes the horse may start running so fast and gain so much momentum, that it's beyond the power of the charioteer to control it.

And that time the chariot might get overturned. So, in life, no mistake is, you could say, fatal. We can always recover.

Because even if we die, there's a future life. So, it's nothing is like, in that sense, ultimately, irredeemable. No one is irredeemable.

So, sometimes, one battle is lost, just accept it is lost now. But, next time, how can I check the horses before they become so fast? So, then go over the situation, and it's not that I just got so angry at this point. There's something that happened before, something that happened before.

And try to address it at that level. On my website, there's a whole seminar on this. Burn anger before anger burns you.

Like a six-session retreat I did in Brisbane. So, you may find something more over there. But one thing for this is, if there are some people who are very close to, and within which the anger comes very strongly, we need to build some healthy channels of communication.

Wherein, maybe once a week, we come together, once a week, once a fortnight, we read something spiritual together, we share our hearts, something positive. And then, we speak out our concerns. So, we don't let that accumulate, accumulate, accumulate.

Because, at a particular time, it's going to explode, and that time, it's too late. So, we need to develop some regular healthy channels of communication. And then, we can preclude that explosion.

Thank you. Yes, sir, last question, and we'll move on. I would like to go back to Brahma Samhita Council, Are you coming tomorrow? Because tomorrow is Brahma Vimohanlila.

Okay. Okay. Okay, we didn't put it for charging.

Just one minute. So, how could Indra or Brahma not recognize Krishna? With respect to our spiritual life, it's not a matter of just like our intelligence is not like a fixed deposit. Like, once you invest, you have that money for a fixed deposit.

Our intelligence is like a stock market share. The value keeps going up and down. So, it is not that because we know now, so we'll know forever.

Sometimes we hear a point, and say, this is such a powerful point. This is like a life-changing point for me now. And, you know, the next time, a few days later, that point which we thought will change our life, we don't even remember that point.

So, it's our memory which is the basis of our intelligence. Krishna says, once the memory is lost, intelligence is lost. So, our memory is very volatile.

And that makes our intelligence also very volatile. And that is the sadhaka stage that the intelligence is unsteady. Now, having given this reason, which is like relatable for our sadhakas, another point over there is that Krishna is playing a naraleela.

He is acting like an ordinary human being. And not just an ordinary human being, even Ram is playing that ordinary human being. Ram is actually a regal.

He is a king. But Krishna is simply like a cowherd boy. So, even Vishnu or Indra, sorry, Brahma or Indra, they know that there is a being higher than us.

But that being, they usually identify with Krishna. So, Krishna is not directly involved in the functional management of the universe. Some people argue that why is Krishna not mentioned in the Vedas? Krishna is of course mentioned in quite a few places in the Vedas if you consider the Vedas as an expansive body.

But yes, the Vedas are like the official law book, you could say. Now, in the official law book of UK, the Prime Minister's nickname or pet name may not be mentioned. So, Krishna is like God at home.

And all that he does, that is not so well known to the Devatas. They interact with God in office, that is with Vishnu. So, for them, divinity means Vishnu.

And Krishna not only doesn't look like God, he often doesn't act anywhere like God. You know, acts in such a some childlike way at times. So, because of that, they also, because they are familiar with Vishnu, they start doubting, is this really Vishnu who has come? And the person who is acting in such an unusual, such an un-God-like way, how can he be God? So, that also, because they are not familiar with Krishna as God, they tend to forget.

And further, they understand that these are great characters. So, the Lord uses them to teach some lessons. And that means we shouldn't judge their character only by their mistakes.

You know, understand that this is used, these characters' mistakes are used to teach me some lessons. Say, for example, suppose there is a video which teaches, if you consider a cricket match, which teaches spin-balling, maybe leg spin-balling. Now, if you are going to show a leg spinner, like spinning the ball and getting a batsman out.

Now, you won't just say, we won't, in that video, they won't just show some, maybe, ordinary, maybe street cricketer getting out. They will show maybe a champion batsman getting out. Now, if we look only at that video on leg spinning, we may see 100 incidents when the batsman got out.

We think, does this batsman ever score any runs? Just gets out. All the time. Now, if you look at other videos, you see how the batsman scores a lot of runs also.

But here, when the stress is to show how expert leg spin-balling is, then you will show how the best batsman gets bowled out by that. So, similarly, here, especially in the Bhagavatam, in Krishna Leela, it is especially shown how bhakti is what is most important in approaching God, in knowing God, in loving God. And, for, if somebody does not have a very high level of bhakti, then, even if they have other qualifications very high, still, they are not good enough.

Still, they will be bowled out. So, the Bhagavatam is contrasting, say, Indra and Brahma with the Vrajvasis. The Vrajvasis spontaneously love with Krishna, but Indra and Brahma get bewildered.

That's to show that the devotion of the Vrajvasis is so great that it is greater than even these people who are considered so great in the cosmic hierarchy. So, it's for the purpose of glorifying bhakti ultimately. So, we shouldn't, as compared to us, these are very, very great people.

As compared to the Vrajvasis, the Vrajvasis are far, far greater than them. So, when something is contrasting, this contrast is being highlighted, and this person is, in that contrast between Vrajvasis and the Devatas, the Devatas are being downplayed. That doesn't mean the Devatas are insignificant.

The Devatas are not as fallible human beings. Sometimes, we devotees say, we are going to go to Goloka, and Vaikuntha. We are going to go to Vaikuntha.

We treat Vaikuntha, we start treating Vaikuntha like our backyard. Oh, Vaikuntha is also the spiritual world. Somebody who goes there also has pure love for the Lord.

Just that they may not have love for the Lord in his very, in his intimate aspect as Krishna. So, that's also a reason, this forgetfulness is not like ordinary forgetfulness. So, this forgetfulness is recounted in the scripture to teach us a particular lesson.

Okay. So, let's move on with the Brahma Vimohan, with the Indra, Govardhan Leela now. So, you have done my Vimohan also now.

Okay. So, we were at the point of, we talked about how Indra got provoked, and how it was it was scandalously disproportionate inhumanely disproportionate provocation. Now, Krishna could have countered Indra in any way.

But Krishna actually continued that campaign of provocation. That means, what he did was, Krishna had Indra bypassed for Govardhan. And then Indra used all his power.

And what did Krishna do? Krishna again used the same Govardhan. And he lifted Govardhan and Govardhan became an umbrella. Now, at one level, it's amazing that Krishna can lift Govardhan.

That's Krishna's amazing power. But, another point is that when Krishna lifted Govardhan, Govardhan acted as a competent umbrella. And nobody in Vrindavan was hurt.

All the Vrajavasis were perfectly sheltered under that umbrella. In fact, Vishwanath Chakravartha goes further and says, not only were the Vrajavasis under Govardhan not hurt, even the Vrajavasis on Govardhan were not hurt. That means, not even a single tree lost a leaf.

Not even the… There was no damage on Govardhan at all. So, what Krishna did, even in his protection of Vrajavasis, first, he had told the Vrajavasis, give up Indra for Govardhan. And now, in a sense, he showed that Govardhan is stronger than Indra.

Because Govardhan has protected you from Indra. And now, mother Yashoda got anxious. Krishna, how can he lift this Govardhan? So, Krishna said, actually, mother, don't be anxious.

Now, Govardhan is so happy with all the food that you have given him, that he is himself floating in the sky in ecstasy. And, I am just putting this finger for show. And mother Yashoda said, if this finger is for show, then please remove it.

And everybody said, no, don't remove it. Don't remove it. Don't remove it.

So, what happened, in Krishna, at one level, it is Krishna who is orchestrating everything. But, Krishna did not use his personal power directly to counter Indra. Krishna showed to Indra that the same Govardhan you consider insignificant, that same Govardhan is countering your power.

And, it couldn't get more humiliating for Indra than this. Because, suppose there is a boxing match between two champion boxers. And both of them come ready to fight.

And one of them is like flexing his muscles and showing all his biceps and comes marching in. And the other person, just as he enters, just, you know, one punch with the left hand fist. And that person is knocked out of the ring.

And knocked out of the match. What? What happened? It's bad to be defeated, but it's worse to be defeated without even a fight. Or, it is worse to be defeated by like a insignificant part of the opponent.

So, say, if there is a champion batsman and he hardly ever gets out. And then, if at least a good bowler gets you out, it's fine. But, if a bowler was never, if a player was never bowled in his life, he comes and bowls and you get out.

You know, I don't want to get out as a batsman. It's humiliating. So, what Krishna did, he used Govardhan, but how? It was Krishna lifted Govardhan on his left hand.

And not even on his left hand, it was on his little finger of his left hand. And, our Acharyas go further and describe, it was not even on the little finger. It was on the nail of the little finger.

So, Krishna had a nail, and even that nail didn't break under the weight of Govardhan. Ek din maana Indra kumaro, Naka upar Govardhan dharo, Naam polo Giridhari, Radhe Shyam, Shyam, Shyam. So, Naam polo Giridhari.

That Krishna lifted Govardhan. Ek din maana Indra kumaro. It completely crushed his pride.

By what? Naka upar. On his nail he lifted up. Govardhan dharo.

So, by this, by this activity of lifting it up, on his nail, he showed Indra that Indra was utterly not a match for him. He was not a match at all. In Hindi, tu to mere baya hata khel hai.

I can defeat you with my left hand. Krishna, I can defeat you with the little, with the nail of the little finger of my left hand. So, Indra used his whole power and Krishna used like a tiny bit of his power.

How much power is there in the little finger? Indra is not just, after Indra sent all his forces, Indra was still not satisfied. And when the forces came back and said nothing is happening, Indra said I'll come myself. And Indra then used his personal prowess to attack Govardhan.

And then also nothing happened. So, Indra was completely humiliated by Krishna. Now, finally, he just couldn't do anything at all.

All his power was exhausted. All his personal power, all his extended power, everything was exhausted. And then, he just gave up.

He just gave up and he came back. He didn't know what to do at that time. Eventually, what happens, we all have, there are three modes of material nature and in every situation that we are in, there is something in our control and something not in our control.

So, in the mode of passion, we overestimate our capacity to control. In the mode of ignorance, we underestimate our capacity. So, when some problem is there, no problem, I'll solve the problem.

That's often an overestimation. But sometimes a problem is there. Oh, this problem is there, I can't do anything about it.

Like sometimes, a fire, sometimes a fire starts somewhere and then, oh fire, fire, fire, fire, extinguish it, oh fire, fire, fire, fire. You know, you can find something, put a fire extinguisher, extinguish it, but they just keep panicking as if they have no control. They can do something.

So, mode of ignorance means we underestimate our power to control. So, what happens is that many people oscillate between this passion and ignorance. Prabhupada said, when Prabhupada came to the west, he said, he looked at the western coastline and observed it, people are mostly covered by the modes of passion and ignorance.

Passion and ignorance means that people sometimes overestimate their capacities. And some people, there is a kind of people called manic-depressive. There is chronic-depressive and manic-depressive.

Chronic-depressive is always depressed. They are like fully into the mode of ignorance. Constantly.

But manic-depressive are, they alternate between ignorance and passion. So, sometimes they are hyperactive and then after that they become hyper-passive. So, now Indra, he had initially overestimated his capacity to control.

And he thought, what can these people do? What can these Vaishyas do? And he just attacked. And then, using all his power, when he just couldn't do anything at all, he gave up. He gave up and he went back.

At this point, he had exceeded his boundaries. But still, Indra had a basic, he was not a bad person. He was a good person who had got into a bad frame of mind.

So, when he realized that I have done a terrible mistake, you know, Krishna, Krishna cannot be an ordinary person. For somebody to resist these powers, resist all my powers, this must be God. And then, what do I do? What do I do now? How do I deal with this? So then, at least now his good sense came back.

Then, now some Acharya said he went to Brahma. What do I do? Brahma said, you offended him. Krishna now, only somebody who is dear to Krishna if that person recommends you, only then you will be safe.

Then, what does he do? He goes to a Surabhi cow. And he just offers respects to her. As compared to Indra, Surabhi cow is insignificant.

So, he at least now had the grace to humble himself. And when he went and humbled himself, and he told Surabhi cow what had happened. And she said, you please go to Indra, to Krishna, go with me to Krishna.

When Krishna sees you, he will be happy. And after that he sees me, because of his happiness, he won't be so angry with me. And then you recommend me to him.

So, he said, okay. Then Krishna went with Surabhi cow. And Krishna saw Surabhi and he was very happy.

And then Surabhi cow glorified Krishna. Krishna, you are our real Indra. You are Govinda.

And then she said, Indra is very remorseful. And then Indra offers various prayers. And Krishna speaks very briefly.

And Krishna says, I am knowingly provoking you. So that your pride would be exposed to yourself. And he says, I don't want to deprive you of your position.

Go back to your position, but go back to the position with the right disposition. The position that we all have in life, we all want to do something worthwhile in our life. And we all feel that maybe if I have more power, maybe if people listen to me more, maybe if I have more abilities, maybe I have more wealth, whatever, I could do so many things more.

And it's true. If we have resources, we can do more things. But actually, more important than a better position is a better disposition.

If we have a better disposition in Krishna, why will Krishna not give us a better position? Ultimately, Krishna wants his devotees to make the whole world devotional. And Krishna would like to give the best resources in the world to his devotees. But Krishna will not give the world to the devotee as long as the devotee is attracted more to the world than Krishna.

Because if Krishna gives us the world, we take the world and we go away from Krishna. Krishna doesn't want that. So, for all of us, we all could say that we need a better position.

That's true. But we also need a better disposition. So Krishna tells Indra, go back to your position, but don't forget that you are my servant.

And you enjoy the honor and the luxury of heaven. But do it in a mood of service. Do it in a mood of service.

And Indra accepts Krishna's words and he departs. So the story overall, because he is still a godly person who acts in a terribly ungodly way, but still is a godly person, the story has a happy ending. Krishna kills some demons.

Krishna never kills a devata. Because there is a core goodness to them. But we see that the humility that he lacked initially.

If we do not have humility, then we will have to go through humiliation. The world is such a place that anything external that we get our shelter in, that will be taken away from us. If we honestly admit that this is not mine, I am currently using it, then we have that humility.

Then if it is taken away, we won't be so humiliated. So he didn't have the humility, so he had to go through that humiliation. But then he developed the humility.

The humility to first go to Surabhi and then to go to Krishna. And then when Krishna's purpose was served, Indra accepted his mistake and expressed his humility. Then Krishna did not punish Indra in any way.

The purpose of Krishna is not retribution. It is reformation. You did this and you had to be punished for this.

Krishna is not like a vindictive god. Krishna is a merciful god. So he did not punish Indra in the sense that he deprived him of his position.

Krishna helped him to return to his position with a better disposition. That's how Krishna in this pastime emerges as greater than Indra. But then we'll see over here that this personal or the mortification or the humiliation of Indra, it doesn't happen in front of the whole world.

Once Krishna is outside in the forest, Indra comes privately and Indra does all this. Now sometimes the Gopas come and see, but the Gopas see from a distance. They don't know who is this, what is this, what is going on.

Oh, Indra has come and talked with you. But it's not that Krishna is looking at the Gopas and says, see how I have humiliated Indra. No, it's not that Krishna wants to deliberately humiliate Indra more than what is necessary.

Once Indra is reformed, Krishna lets Indra get back to his position. So thus, to summarize quickly, what I discussed in this part was that Indra, he exercised his full power but then he was rendered powerless. So Krishna continued his provocation of Indra.

You think that you have been slighted because Govardhan has been favoured before you. But that same Govardhan can counter all your power. Krishna used the same Govardhan to protect.

And not only Govardhan he used to protect, he used his own little finger as nail. So you are no match at all to him. So that Krishna completely humiliated, so completely thwarted him in every way.

So initially it was his passion overestimating his power. But then he didn't sink into ignorance thinking, oh, life is terrible, what can I do? He actually rose to goodness. And that rising to goodness was that he had the grace, the humility to see best how I can trip over.

And he went to Surabhi and then he went to Indra with Surabhi. And Krishna did not punish Indra any further. Krishna gave back the position of Indra to him but told him go there with the right disposition.

In our own lives we often feel that if we had a better position we could do more. That's true. Could be true.

But more than a better position we need a better disposition. And if we develop a better disposition, Krishna, why will he not give devotees the resources with which they can do good for the world. So Krishna did not publicly humiliate Indra further.

The purpose of Krishna is never retribution. It is reformation. Thank you very much.

Hare Krishna. So any more questions? Till what time should we go on? 10 minutes. Yes, we'll come to you.

Thank you for the class. Two part questions. One, did Indra not have a guru? Secondly, Lord Indra challenges Krishna again over the flowers when Krishna goes to heaven for his wife's abhama for the flower and then he gets changed.

Did he not remember what happened when Krishna was a child? So, three part you said? No, I said two part. So, does devatas have a guru? Well, sometimes brahaspatis call their guru. Brahaspatis more like their priest.

We don't really hear many occasions where brahaspati is doing katha and the devatas are sitting and listening to the katha. It's more that brahaspati comes in and does the priestly rituals for them. So they respect him as a priest but we don't really see the devatas going very often to get instructions from brahaspati sometimes.

They often go to Brahma when they are in trouble. Brahma is considered to be a brahmana. The brahmastra is not the astra of Brahma.

It's the brahman, the astra. So Brahma is more brahmanical than Kshatriya. The Indra is Kshatriya.

So, in general, do they have a guru? You see, broadly in the epics, obviously they all had a guru but the guru is not overemphasized. You see, the Mahabharata is 110,000 verses but Vyasadeva doesn't spend even half a verse to tell us who is the guru of the Pandavas specifically. What we see is, there is a general reverence for brahmanical culture and they learn from many brahmanas.

The Pandavas learn from Narada Muni, from Vyasadeva, from Arkandeya, from so many other rishis. So, yes, of course, there is one particular guru but that's not generally the emphasis in scripture. And we see our present Krishna consciousness movement is also moving in that direction.

We have one spiritual master but we learn from so many Vaishnavas. So, in a sense, we are returning toward what was the standard in the epics. So, that's why the devatas, they may have had a particular guru but generally that is not stressed in the scriptures.

And as… Now, what about the Indra forgetting? Again, when Satyabhama, as the Parijat flower is taken. Yes, Shivdeva Goswami uses that to say that such is the deluding power of wealth. That when one has a lot of wealth, one can keep forgetting again and again.

So, yeah, it is again circumstantial that it happened but Indra tends to have a lot of relapses. Yes, Guru? Because Indra misbehaved with Krishna due to lack of personalities, Krishna is Vishnu. Yes, that's true.

He did not realize that Krishna is ultimately Vishnu. Thank you. I would like also to say that there are many instances in the Krishnalila when Krishna himself doesn't realize he is Krishna.

How will the demigods realize if he himself sometimes doesn't realize? Yeah, the instance of Yogamaya when Krishna conceals his divinity. That's true. For example, in the past time of Damodara, when Madhuri Yashoda is chasing him with a stick and it is described that he is crying because he is so scared like he is the god and at that time he doesn't realize he is the god because in that particular past time he is to himself even just as a little boy.

Yeah, so sometimes Krishna doesn't realize that he is god. Yes. See, Krishna in Vrindavan, for example, in Damodara he is crying.

Krishna does in Vrindavan whatever is required for enhancing the loving relationship between his devotees. That means if the devotees remember that he is god then they can't relate with him as a person, as a loving person. If you are too aware of somebody's greatness then that inhibits the naturality of the interaction.

So, in fact, Sunday morning I gave a Bhagavatam about how vulnerability increases lovability. So, I won't go into that but suffice it to say that in Vrindavan, Krishna does what is required for the enhancement of the love. So that means if mother Yashoda thinks that he is god then she cannot feel anxious for him.

And when mother Yashoda wants to play the role of a when mother Yashoda is going to play the role of the mother if Krishna doesn't play the role of a child, Krishna says, you are trying to catch me, I am god, how can you catch me? That will become a complete rasavas. So, Krishna plays the role of a child at that time. To perfection.

I was going to talk about this in tomorrow's class but I will mention it today and I will elaborate it tomorrow that this concept of yoga maya is a very profound concept that Krishna Leela you could say is like a drama. In a drama there are various actors. So Krishna and Rajwasi they are all the actors in the drama.

Every actor has a director. So yoga maya is the director. And the best actors are those not just those who make the audience feel the emotion but the best actors are those who themselves feel the emotion.

They themselves feel the emotion and the genuineness of what they are feeling that creates the emotion in the audience. So in acting it is said if you fake it, you make it. The better you fake it, the bigger you make it in acting.

It's like that. So it's not faking in the sense but they actually very deeply experience it. So Krishna is the perfect actor also.

So Krishna is playing the role of a cowherd boy, fully enters into that role. So he just completely acts according to the direction of the director. So then if you say if he is forgetting that he is God, then how is he God? But there is a further twist.

Krishna is the actor and yoga maya is the director. So Krishna is acting according to yoga maya's direction. But the director directs according to a script.

And Krishna is the script writer also. So Krishna is directed by yoga maya according to his own script. And that's why the same Krishna who is scared of his mother with a stick trying to beat him who is distressed why I am tied like this that Krishna whose waist apparently doesn't have enough strength to break the ropes that are tying him that same Krishna's waist has enough strength to bring down two giant trees.

So Krishna can manifest omnipotence whenever he wants. And that's why it is so Krishna even when he apparently forgets that he is God it's actually by his own plan. And that's how in Krishna Leela there is that is Krishna is not God because he is acting as if he is not God but that acting is as per his plan.

That's why Krishna is thus not in control because he is being tied up but he is in control because the tying up is as per his plan. So that's how it's Achintya Veda way in Krishna Leela also. Simultaneous Krishna is God and Krishna is not God.

So ok last question. Yes sir. You asked a common question to me.

You said Krishna in Krishna Leela Achintya Veda Veda something similar in Ram and Ram Leela also. Is Achintya Veda Veda in Ram Leela also? Yes to some extent. Whenever the Lord descends to the world it's true that it's not always that Ram acts as if God.

Ram has divine power but doesn't manifest it all the time. So thank you very much. Shri Krishna Bhagavan Ki Jai Gaur Bhakta Bhann Ki Jai Gaur Premanand Ke Jai Shri Krishna Bhagavan Ki Jai.