Balancing faith and questioning spirit on the spiritual path

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

Today I am going to give you a brief introduction to the Bhagavad-gītā which is in the Bhagavad-gītā which is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Today I am going to discuss, I am talking of faith and doubt. So the importance of faith and the danger of doubt, that's one side of the topic.

On the other side of the topic, the importance of doubt and the danger of blind faith. So how can we have a balance between faith as a support on our spiritual path and on the other hand how can we also be intelligent enough to discriminate so that we can choose properly. So the central point of this whole class will take reference from scriptures from our everyday context also.

But the central point is that there is faith and there is reason or logic. So generally people think that religion is a matter of faith and science is a matter of facts or reason or logic. And people sometimes feel that you have to practice spiritualism in some sort of religious path, that you have to do a few things, you have to do all sorts of strange, mythological, illogical things.

But however, in the spiritual path reason and logic play an important role. However, so the defining message of this class is logic should be our minister, not our master on the spiritual path. We should have a ministerial room, not a magisterial room.

So minister, a minister is a king. The king has a minister and a consultant as a person who offers valuable advice. So logic and reason are important.

They should be used, but they should be our ministers, not our masters. So what does exactly mean? So one simple point to understand the difference between minister and master is, the minister is subordinate, the master is superordinate. Subordinate means none other than one's control.

Superordinate means above one's control. That means the master controls. Now we'll look at some verses from the Bhagavad Gita which talk about faith and then we'll move forward.

So Krishna talks about Bhagavad Gita in various places about faith and often he talks about it in parallels. Parallels means he talks about it in contrast. So let's look at two verses, 4.39 and 4.40. So 4.39 and 4.40 Krishna talks about how faith is valuable and he also talks about how doubt is an obstacle.

But later on we'll look at the Bhagavatam and Krishna talks about how doubt is also important. So in 4.39 and 4.40 what Krishna says, first 4.39 he describes this topic, which means doubt. So Krishna is saying over here, the person who has faith, which a person acquires knowledge.

So Krishna is saying that if we want to acquire knowledge, we need faith. Of course he is talking about spiritual knowledge over here. But this applies in all fields.

When we go to school and we start studying, we have some preliminary faith in the teacher. It's not that in all other fields when we start studying, we start questioning everything. The teacher asks us to pursue school.

Why should we pursue school? Well, we have some faith and we get some answers. So some faith is required. So Krishna says, faith is a precondition for knowledge.

Faith means initially for the process of knowledge acquisition to be obtained also some faith is required. Now that is true for any field of knowledge. But when we come to spiritual knowledge, there are some other requirements also.

So it is two more requirements for acquiring spiritual knowledge. Tat Paraha means one is attached to that absolute. One Paraha is to be attached.

Tatha is that. So one is attached to the higher spiritual reality. That means when we are talking about spiritual knowledge, we are talking about God, we are talking about soul, essentially there has to be an interest in these things.

A strong interest that okay, life in this world is what everybody is excited about. But is there something beyond life in this world? Life is temporary. Is there something beyond this world? So a Tat Paraha Now with a little curiosity we can get more good knowledge.

But if you want a systematic knowledge, you have to be attracted to the higher spiritual reality. What is there beyond this world? Tat Paraha. And then along with that he says, Sanyadev Priyahan.

Sanyadev Priyahan means one is to control one's senses. Why one needs to control one's senses? Because our senses keep us attached to this world and its experiences. Our senses are material and they attract us to material pleasures.

And because of that, as long as we are infatuated by the hopes and little pleasures, we are captivated by material objects, we can't see beyond material reality to spiritual reality. That's why this is described as a Shraddhama beyond faithfulness, then interaction with spiritual reality and control of one's senses. So now another example, simple example to understand this is the example of a movie theatre.

When a person goes into a movie theatre, actually two things happen. First is the lights go off and then the lights go on. One set of lights go off, which is all the surrounding lights are there, they go off.

And then the lights on the screen, basically the collision that's happening from behind onto the main screen, those lights go on. So similarly it is described that when the soul comes to the material world, there are two primary forces that cause a movie. So first is called as the Aavarnatmikam Shakti and the second is called as the Prakshipatmikam Shakti.

Aavarn means covering, so covering. So Aavarnatmikam Shakti makes sense for the age that I am the soul, there is a spiritual world, there is a higher reality and Prakshipatmikam Shakti attracts us to a few things. There is space between I am a man, I am a boy, I am a girl, I am an Indian, I am well educated and this and that.

So all these for the identification, they are the second phase of illusion. First phase of illusion is forgetting our true identity. The second phase of illusion is acquiring the false identity.

You remember while talking about the Oh My God movie and I was talking about why we chant, I gave the example of spiritual amnesia. So when the millionaire son falls and loses his memory, gets amnesia, so that loss of memory, forgetfulness of identity, that's the first part of illusion. That's Prakshipatmikam Shakti.

And the second part of the illusion is Aavarnatmikam Shakti. One gets covered and the second part is Prakshipatmikam. This one gets pushed, pushed towards the illusion.

So that second part is the tribals among whom this millionaire son falls, these tribals give him a name, give him a role and give him a school. So like that, these two phases of illusion are there, Aavarnatmika and Prakshipatmika. So even if you don't remember the names, the concept is simple to understand.

When we go into the movie theatre, the first thing is lights go off. That is the Aavarnatmika Shakti. So our connection with reality gets lost and the lights go off.

Then we forget, okay there are people around me and I am so and so person. And most of the world gets forgotten and the lights go off. And then the lights on the screen go on and you know when images start appearing over there.

Then we get sucked into an illusory world. So that is the second part, that is the Prakshipatmikam Shakti. So now, same is our situation.

We are spiritual beings, we are souls. But we are caught in material spirituality. Prakrishna in the Bhagavad Gita, the reading chapter when he was described, Purusha is the soul.

Prakrti is materialism. So Purusha, Prakrti means soul, soul used to become situated. So to understand this, there is a spectator who has come to a movie theatre and has sat down on a movie theatre seat.

So Purusha, Prakrti, soul and then gets caught in the situation. So the soul comes to the material world, gets situated in the material body and then, Bhante is the desire to enjoy. The three modes of spiritual nature that are born from nature, so just like there are three primary colours from which all the multiple images on the computer screen or a cinema screen are created.

So like that through the three modes, all the various sense objects in this world are created. So Purusha, Prakrti, soul, the soul desires to enjoy the material things. And then because of that, so once a person starts watching a movie, then now, in the same, instead of the movie theatre, we have a home-made video seat.

Now where people have huge screens in their homes and then they can serve through various channels. We can turn this channel, that channel. So like that in this world, three modes offer us different objects for enjoyment.

And how it is with Purusha and Purusha, to the extent a person is attached to watching a particular program, seeing a particular movie, to that extent, the person forgets what is the real identity. And then depending on what is going on in the movie, first of all happens, if there is a happy scene, the person feels happy, so there is a bit of sadness, and then the person feels miserable. So because of the identification, we go through life after life, getting good and bad in this So, now, what is this example of a movie, or watching a TV, or to have a more sophisticated example, we could have virtual reality there.

What is this got to do with faith? Our topic right now is faith and doubt. So, actually, we are all as a person, we struggle through deep, we are caught in material nature, and we are caught in material things right now. So, now if I want to stop, if I want to get out of material nature, what do I have to do? First of all, let's stop getting so caught by the illusion that is the real nature.

That is, that is part of the regularity of your senses. If I am too attached to my senses, and enjoying things from the senses, it's like a person too caught, what is there in this movie, what is there in this channel, what is there in this channel, we go endlessly surfing. So, actually, we are also surfing and suffering through material things.

So, we are going through this, and as we are going through all this, the first requirement if you want to come out of it is, okay, try to do it, and don't get too infatuated. Another point is, as I said, I have to have some feeling, there must be some reality. Now, am I just that hero in the movie, who is doing all these things, and I am identifying with that, don't I have any separate identity, separate from, distinct from it? I have.

So, like that, who am I? So, now all of us, we will say I have a name, because we were born before our name came into existence. We are distinct from our name. So, who am I? Tattvara, or that spiritual environment.

Is there a life beyond what I am seeing on the television? There is a second one. And then, so, for what all is required? Tattvara is attraction, and that is sayadimitriya, and over all things is mentioned, shraddha, mamana. So, what is the shraddha that is required? The shraddha has two aspects to it.

That, first aspect is, that whatever I am seeing on that television show, that is not the ultimate reality. And the second part is, there is some reality beyond what I am seeing with my senses. So, the two are one thing in themselves, but they are two distinct in the sense that the focus of our contemplation is different in each of the cases.

So, this is not a very difficult thing to have when a person is very perceptive. So, when you look at the world, everything in this world is changing. So, it's logical for a person to think, if everything is changing, there must be some unchanging basis to all this.

And that unchanging basis is the focus of spiritual life. So, we have to describe, now, also, that we are born in this form of life, start inquiring about spiritual life. So, now, coming forward, at this point, when we are talking about faith or doubt.

So, now, if I am caught up in watching the TV, I really don't know what is there beyond the TV. So, how do I come to know? And of course, I regulate what I am watching on the TV, and then try to shift and look around. Similarly, we have to regulate our interaction with the material world, and then start exploring the higher spiritual realities.

So, this involves a philosophy and a process. So, now, we'll talk, later on, we'll be having a series of discussions on various topics of faith and doubt, where we'll take specific topics. Some of you will use these.

We'll present the questions which you have on those topics. For example, science, as spiritualists, we're all scientifically minded. So, how do we live in this world of science? Should we have faith in science? Should we not have faith in science? How do we see science, and how do we reconcile science with scripture? These are things that we will discuss.

Similarly, we talk about scripture. How can we relate that the scripture contains the word of God, and scripture contains so many things. So, we'll discuss our questions specifically, topic-wise, about various topics in the later sessions.

But this is a background setting session for us. So, now that we talk about faith and doubt, so, if we talk about the aspect of faith. So, as I said, faith is something which is based on reason, but it goes beyond reason.

Faith is based on reason, but it goes beyond reason. What does it mean? No, it is not based on reason, it is not based on logic, that it is blind faith. But if it is only limited to reason, then we can't go beyond and experience higher reality.

I mean, a simple example to understand this is, a person goes to a doctor. Then, the person goes to a doctor. So, the reverence of Krishna is like a medicine, and it cures these two phases of delusion.

The first phase is that we get attracted to a particular reality, like the praksha-parmikasa. So, that is countered by… So, if we chant Hare Krishna, then we remember Krishna, our attraction to the illusions of this world increases. And then… that our spiritual inclination, that increases.

So, chanting of the holy names counters the effects of the praksha-parmikasa and our attachment. It decreases our attraction to delusion, and it stimulates our attraction to the reality. So, this is like an intuitive process.

When I go to a doctor and take a medicine, what cures me is not understanding how the medicine works, but taking the medicine. So, now I need to understand, so that I will know whether this is the right medicine or not, and I need to understand so that I can take the medicine properly. But, the understanding is not the cure, and the understanding itself does not bring about the cure.

So, this… I made four points over here. First point is, so there are two things which reason and logic can do, and two things which reason and logic cannot do. So, reason and logic, I'll use the word interchangeably over here.

So, I'll just use one word over here. I'll use the word logic because it's more common than reason. Actually, reason is a broader term, and logic is a particular kind of reason.

There are various kinds of reasons, and logic is one of them, but I won't go into that. That is a part of the study of logic. So, focus here on… Let me just… Okay, when I ask a question, I'm going to make sense.

It should be logical. That's fine. So, it should be logical, but along with that, we also need to realize that there are things which logic alone cannot do.

Say, when I go to a doctor, I use my logic, I use my interventions to first of all evaluate. This is what the doctor is saying makes sense. Secondly, I use the logic to understand, okay, how exactly will the cure work? What exactly should I do? What do I need to do to make sure that I get rid of the problem? So, these two things logic does.

On the spiritual part, logic helps us to understand what is the spiritual reality. At any lecture, okay, there is a soul beyond the body, there is a God beyond the world, and then there is this eternal alone. These preliminary things, we can understand from logic.

We'll discuss what spiritual is in another future classes, but this is what logic enables us to understand. So, logic helps us to understand what is the disease and how exactly the cure will work. So, I'm caught up in a particular reality, and how the process of going to the service will take me out of the material world.

These two things logic can do. But the two things that logic can't do is, logic is not the medicine, and logic is not the substitute for the medicine. That means, if I logically evaluate, okay, this doctor, what is his excellence? Logically, I understand it, that's not going to cure me.

So, logic is not the medicine, and we don't need logic to substitute for the medicine. Somebody can very systematically, even a doctor can very systematically understand how a disease has caught a person, and how the disease will be cured by a particular medicine. But just a systematic understanding is not going to cure the doctor, the doctor of the disease.

Doctor will have to take and then treat it. So, similarly, in a spiritual life, our philosophical, logical discussions, they are not the, they themselves are not spiritual advancement. They are themselves not going to take us to another example.

So, one is the example of medicine. Second example, I'll give more examples to understand this further. Second example is the example of a man.

So, philosophy, intellect, is something that is like a man. If I have to go from here to Calcutta on my own, I need a man. But just having the man, and even knowing the path from here to Calcutta on the man, will not take me to Calcutta.

I have to make the journey. The man enables me to go along the journey. So, similarly, the philosophy, the logical analysis, the intellectual aspect, enables us to get the man.

But it is we who have to make the journey. Making the journey means what? So, somebody is watching the TV, and by logic he understands. There must be some code beyond the block of TV.

But just knowing that is not going to help the person understand everything. Just cut off the connection that you can look around and see what else is there. Am I audible behind? So, what all else is there behind, one has to understand that.

And then one can actually start coming out of the image. So, the first example was of a medicine and their doctor. So, second example is of the man.

The man shows us the path, but the map itself doesn't take us along the path. The third example is of a recipe. When we are cooking, we need to have a bits about to understand, okay, these are the ingredients that are to be used, this is the way they are to be mixed.

Now, knowing the recipe is important for cooking. But knowing the recipe is not the substitute for cooking. Knowing the recipe, even memorizing the recipe, if I like sweet rice, and I memorize the recipe, and I chant the recipe, I am going to get the taste of sweet rice.

Isn't it? There is a good sense. So, similarly, in spiritual life, when you practice spiritual life, the philosophy, the logical aspect of everything, we understand it, but that in and of itself doesn't lead to a change of our heart. That is something which we have to choose.

I may understand, okay, beyond this world is Krishna, but choosing to love Krishna is something which I have to do. I may understand, okay, this world is temporary, Krishna is eternal, and therefore I should love Krishna. That logic can help me understand it.

Philosophy can help me to understand it. But after that, it's I who have to make the choice. It's I who have to make the decision, and then go along with the decision.

So, there is history examples, medicine, the man, and medicine. History examples, there is a strictly common point that there is definitely a vital role for our logical and intellectual aspect. But that is not complete.

So, a patient, you know, has to be intellectual to understand what is the medicine, but after that the patient has to take the medicine. Only then the patient will be sure. So, now, how does all this apply to our study of Krishna Consciousness? Generally, when we practice Krishna Consciousness, the various satsangs that we study, they fall in four broad categories.

And we will discuss about this more. The first thing is, things which will make sense to me. Do you hear them? Yes.

For example, we understand that all age, disease, death are visible. Do you notice those pictures? Yes, it makes sense. So, things which we hear, and it makes sense for us.

That is the first category of Krishna Consciousness. Second is, some things which we hear, we contemplate, we analyze, and then after some time they start making sense. So, that is, for example, say, I am not the body, I am the soul.

I always thought I was the body. But then, I hear about body experience mind, how can mind experience mind? There must be something else which is experiencing mind. That must be the soul.

So, we have to think about it. So, that is, it requires a thought and analysis, discussion, then we understand. But where is, for a category, some things which will take a long time to understand.

Which will be to, will be to think, will be to, will be to pray, will be to discuss, will be to contemplate, will be to practice. And after some time, you will understand how that actually exists in reality. How does this work? So, why is that? Because, in every field of knowledge, it is not that we understand it immediately.

If somebody starts quantum physics, studying quantum physics, it is that actually, it takes six years, not of education, but re-education, to start understanding quantum physics. Because normally, in our schools and colleges, we study classical physics, quantum physics. That is the primary thing that we study.

And then, after that, when we are introduced to the paradoxical realm of quantum physics, then, it has to be practically a re-education. And that re-education is extremely complex. So, this is just a material field.

And in this material field, Einstein, he was more proponent of relative freedom of quantum physics. He did not like quantum physics at all. And that is why, between him and me, both of us had strong differences of opinion.

They were very fluid towards each other. Towards the end of their lives. This was a whole lot of times that happened.

But anyway, the point was that Einstein just couldn't digest the idea that there is nothing existing except dreams. So, there is a well-known quote, he said, it is perplexity with quantum physics. He said, I feel as if the ground is being pulled down from under my feet, and there is no place where I can put my feet.

So, what was so complex about quantum physics? Well, what was so complex was also very complex to understand. But, the point is that quantum physics, at a particular time, all of what we consider solid reality, it just collapses into quantum things, which are described as Schrodinger's equation. It is already different.

I don't know what quantum physics is already. But, the idea is that if an observer is not observing, the object doesn't exist for all practical purposes. That is the basic concept of quantum physics.

So, Einstein asked one of his friends, do you really think that if I am not looking at the moon, the moon doesn't exist anymore? So, he said, the moon continues to exist, whether I am looking at it or not. So, Einstein said, I don't believe that the moon doesn't exist. Now, we also don't believe in it.

But, that is the institution of quantum physics. I am not saying quantum physics is correct or wrong. All that I am saying is that even scientists, they know that quantum physics works in terms of mathematical calculations.

There is a famous anecdote in the study of quantum physics. There was a physicist, well-known physicist, who was specifically a quantum physicist. So, he was studying one of his students.

Please research, because research, none of this makes sense. So, the teacher said, stop thinking, start calculating. Stop thinking, start calculating.

Why? Because, actually as far as mathematics is concerned, quantum physics works excellently. But, in terms of having a visual or conceptual picture of what the world is like, quantum physics just doesn't make any sense. So, historically, now we say that there is same as belief.

That's what atheists say. So, we want to have a belief. Now, that is the, these are actually called perfectionists.

You know this Pratikramana, Prateksha Pramana, Hanuman Pramana, and Shatak Pramana. So, those who believe in these things, the English-believing, they are called perfectionists. And, in English, they are called empiricists.

Those who say that, you should be able to see things you need to believe in. And, even in science, there is another body of thought, those who emphasize on inferences. Things should be logical, things should be, they should explain it mathematically.

These are called the rationalists. So, there are empiricists and there are rationalists. So, empiricists think that things should make, things should be, things should be visually understandable.

So, what is the axiom? The axiom is the central idea, the things are moving around. But, what is, what is quantum? This is flattening. What exactly is a quantum? So, it is difficult to have a visual picture of it.

So, earlier, science started off as being primarily empiricist-ist. But, later on, science has taken over by rationalists. So, these two words, I am using a specific sense of it.

So, empiricists are those who focus on feeling. Rationalists are those who think things should make, should be coherent mathematically. So, Einstein himself, they were looking into it.

You know, for years, there are different times he has said that actually the purpose of all science, or the purpose of all science and theory is to explain what we observe. And, that is a big judgment, isn't it? Okay, you just saw object quality. And then, what did he do? He saw knowledge.

All knowledge, whether it is scientific or philosophical, proceeds by moving from the visible to the invisible. All knowledge proceeds by moving from the visible to the invisible. When Newton saw the moon falling, there is a physical object which is visible.

But, from that, he moved something invisible. What was that? The principle of gravitation. So, even in material science, how things progresses, there are observations, and there are inferences about principles.

So, the principles are actually invisible. Isn't it? I have seen so many things in gravitation. Similarly, most of the fundamental principles, now, we can't see them with our senses, any of them.

So, they are self-searchable. They are not visible to be seen. So, any form of knowledge actually progresses by moving from the visible to the invisible, from the specific to the generic.

Specific is manifold forces. Generic is the force of gravity which causes the object to fall down. It proceeds from the concrete to the abstract.

The fruit of gravity is concrete. The conception of gravity is abstract. So, all knowledge proceeds in this way.

From the visible to the invisible, from the specific to the generic, from the concrete to the abstract. So, Einstein said that the purpose of all scientific theory is to explain the observed phenomena. That means, all scientific theory, we observe some phenomena, and then we infer some invisible principles, which we call as theories.

But then, another time, Einstein said that, if a theory makes sense, if a theory is mathematically sound, then even if there are no facts to observe, it is still going to make sense to people. So, this is the idea of rationalists. Now, who are rationalists? So, the theories are all that kind.

So, now, for example, quantum theory, or especially superstring theory, which says that everything is ultimately made up of super-microscopic strings. Now, these have no basis in any observation, for that matter. There is the multiverse theory.

The multiverse theory is that there are multiple universes, and these are parallel universes. Parallel universe means that the idea is that these other universes are something which exist in a parallel domain, and all these domains are sort of, just like in a waterfall, fire flow, so they are information loops. So, one just cannot know where the parallel universe is.

So, therefore, there is no empirical basis for the idea of parallel universe. But still, the parallel universe theory is there. This is basically the rational study.

So, the point which I am making over here is simple. You may feel a little overwhelmed by the concepts. Point is simple.

That, actually speaking, within science, there is still a lot of suggestions. What is the actual reality? Should science focus on the observable thing and try to come up with theories to explain that? All the theories make sense. Even if you cannot observe it, you should be able to accept those theories.

So, quantum theory is something like this. So, generally speaking, in all of us, when we have two act numbers, there are four broad factors based on which we act. One is culture.

Second is tradition. Third is movement. And fourth is logic.

It means like this. First is culture. So, we are somebody who goes to hostels and people serve all sorts of nonsense things on the net.

Some obscene images. Why do you see that? That's why I do that. So, one reason why we act the way we act is because of culture.

Culture means everybody does it. The second is tradition. So, for example, somebody may say that at the time of the funeral of a person, you should cut a goat.

What is the funeral of cutting a goat? That's what we have always done So, tradition means that's what we have always done and that's why we should do it. Whatever it is, it feels good. Why should I do this? Because I like it.

It feels good. So, by the way, somebody, a boy comes to the hostel and then they start smoking. Now, it may not be the culture, it may not be the tradition.

Isn't it? It's not that people have a home or family brand and they smoke. It's not that it's the tradition. The person is from a very pious family.

That's why they start smoking because it feels good. The third is the and the fourth is logic. It makes sense.

So, for example, we discussed about whom you are my God. Now, many people when they saw this movie then whatever this was it made sense. And many people gave up religious practices because it didn't make sense.

So, now, all these folks have their utility. They are useful in deciding what we should do or how we should do. Why? They all not only have their utility but they also have their palatability.

Palatability means they can take us in wrong directions. They can mislead us. There is utility and there is palatability.

So, what is the palatability of utility? The culture may be entirely wrong. The culture it is something which everybody does. For example, ragging.

Now, it's not most people not like to be ragged but they anyway get ragged. And then after that what happens next year they go and rag. So, an undesirable culture goes on like that because it is something that's going on.

And if it goes on for a long time it can become a tradition. So, there are so many things that are happening in the tradition which may not be correct. What about home? All of us know.

Our homes can so often mislead us. They come out just for the example I get an exam I get an opportunity to watch a movie. Now, I feel like doing it but if I do that then I get myself in trouble.

So, it's not that our feelings are always wrong but it's possible that several times they can mislead us and beyond that there is also so logic makes sense. Now, the problem with logic is that logic is basically like a weapon. So, it depends on the skill of the person how the person uses it.

So, in general it's not that everybody has the same level of logical skill. So, some people now, for example it's like if one person comes with a weapon a sword and then the person is swinging around the sword moving forward so he gets chopped off like arms or head or whatever he gets chopped off he gets cut he gets destroyed. On the other hand to check that person there has to be somebody who also has this weapon this sword and who is equipped enough to fight this person.

So, like if some other magician comes along that person can be fully persuasive logic and overturn the previous person's arguments. Why? Because logic is ultimately a skill. It is.

Logic is not infinite. So, one person can give a logical argument this way another person can give a logical argument this way. You know, there are medical surgeons or medical registries there are case studies.

Now, from the same set of symptoms a patient has a particular set of symptoms and from that set of symptoms by logical influence one doctor can infer that this patient has got this disease and another doctor can infer through logical analysis. This is called intelligent disease. Now, who is right? Now, if both of them say keep arguing keep debating then that logic both of them have their logic but at the end of the day their logic is not going to cure the patient.

The patient has to put faith somewhere take the treatment and get cured. You know, there can be multiple doctors who can argue against each other's opinions but the point is just stay on logic. If you have some friends who are doctors they are ultimately tell that they have to use logic but after that the influence cannot lead to any decisive improvement.

Because what the symptoms they have to logic and they have to be open to That is why personally those who are in need are hard working and practice here in Sahaja Yoga it is not that those logical arguments are not refutable, they are refutable. But it is like, if an expert sportsman is moving a sword, and argues with it, they are not fighting it. You need another expert sportsman.

So, like that, if a person is skewed in logic, then that person can mesmerise and delude other people. That is why the Mahabharata says, karko bhagavishtha nitya yo jyotindam namah saurasya yasyamadam innamitam dharmasya tat tvam nityam duhayam mahajano me na gatasya partha She says, karko, or bhagavishtha, karka is logic. So logic means, or bhagavishtha.

It has no combination. I can go to the island of the sea, and you can go to the island of the sky. And it can go on.

karko bhagavishtha shuddha yo jyotindam So, shuddha yo, if you have no different people, jyotindam. Everybody will have their own opinions. And that's why, namah saurasya yasyamadam innamitam So different speculators, different logicians, they will have their own opinions.

And it will never be confused. Therefore, how do we know? dharmasya tat tvam nityam duhayam The truths of dharma, where are they hidden? mohayam, they are hidden. Where? mahajano me na gatasya partha They are hidden in the hearts of the devotees.

And it is through their dharma that we learn the truths of dharma. So what does this mean again? Suddenly, how can you believe devotees, in the heart of devotees, in the lives of devotees, mahajanas? Now how does this come in action? If you go to a doctor, you are supposed to cure cough. And you find the doctor himself coughing pretty easily.

What is going to happen? Really, if the doctor is there, how can he cure me? And if the doctor is very healthy, then? And the doctor all of a sudden says, no actually, the doctor says that the doctor is treating me. There is no treatment. There are some doctors, for example, there are cancers.

Now practically, for most cancers, the ideology is unknown. Ideology means what causes cancer specifically is known. So many natural therapists, they say that it is caused by unnatural light.

So they take a very natural light as a cure. Now, we may have some faith in it. But if you see that that same person actually had cancer, and that person took a completely natural light, and the person became cured.

And when you see that person, see for yourself what a cure, then actually the faith in the treatment that the person is offering, can be reduced. Because the person is living what is teaching. So, that's why, when we talk about the truths of dharma, being written in the heart and the lives of devotees, what that means is, that ideally, the truth of dharma is that you love me.

And that, how do we know that they love me? By looking at their heart. They love Krishna. How do we know that they love Krishna? By looking at their lives.

They go to their lives to love Krishna. So, yes, we use our logic. It is extremely important to use our logic.

But it is when we see transformation in others, then transformation happens. When we see transformation in individuals, that is what is meant in dharma. So, when we talk about transformation of individuals, with the transformation that leads to the development of children, this is the important thing that we should use our logic.

Certainly we need to use our logic, but we need to understand what is the right method and to understand how will it impact Krishna. But, as far as the actual practice of the method is concerned, that is something which each of us has to do on our own. Only then we will experience the difference, we will experience the transformation.

So, logic, faith, is not that important. Now, if we talk about doubt on the other hand. So doubt is not necessarily bad.

In fact, the Bhagavatam states, in the third canto, it describes the characteristics of the material nature. So, in the Bhagavatam it says the characteristics of earth, characteristics of water, characteristics of fire, like that. After describing the characteristics of the gross material elements, it also describes the characteristics of the subtle living beings.

And like this, there are the characteristics of intelligence. And, the furthest characteristic of intelligence that is described in the Bhagavatam is Samshaya. Samshaya is doubt.

So, it's interesting that the Bhagavatam is saying doubt is a characteristic of intelligence. That means, it takes the individual person to doubt. A foolish person who suffers, says he is a good talker, talks very smoothly, persuasively, thinks like a person, gets persuaded.

So, what is required? Intelligence to be able to doubt. Many people just get brought up by sweet talk in the name of Samshaya. Before I was introduced to ISKCON, I explored several other organizations.

So, I had gone to one organization's program. Their leader had come, and he gave some hypothetical talk, you know, big, big words. He said, Now I will give you the experience.

It's awesome. What is the experience? Close your eyes. Sit relaxed on your chair.

Feel all the muscles of your body being comfortable. Imagine that you are lying on your bed. There are other things just going smooth between your eyes.

If you feel the wind blowing on your face, if you feel your hair flying, if you feel your hair sweat drying on the opposite side of the river, you see a beautiful mountain. At the top of the mountain, black clouds are touching the mountain peaks to force you in peace. You are in peace.

Stay happy. Just hold it and then at the end of it, you saw everybody is happy. Very happy.

Now, actually, what actually happened? It's just entertainment in the name of spirituality. You can watch a beautiful sunshine while looking at a picture or while watching television and that is so common that it's called entertainment. But it flows into the industry people to call it spirituality.

That is not spirituality. You can see a beautiful natural scene. If I see a natural scene, I don't consider it spirituality.

You just close my eyes and imagine and then I directly realize it's not spiritual. Now, some people may experience a dream and they experience a perfidious mind. Ah, the experience of dreaming itself is not spiritual.

It's just a mental projection. So, actually speaking, people just use some silly sounding words and then other people get influenced. By logic, there is movement in the future.

That's why I didn't really have to debate. Now, at such a point, people, if I don't have doubt, what do I do? Start over. Just imagine something.

That's not going to lead to any higher reality. Just imagine. So, what we are doing is materialized.

We may say, okay, we care about Krishna and understand his spiritual world. Or we look at the altar of Krishna. That is true, whether it be Krishna.

But we are not just imagining but actually get transformed in ourselves. We are part of the process by which we transform ourselves, we purify ourselves. To understand the different ones that we do.

If I am sick, if I think, I am sick, I am sick. Just, for example, I have those notions. And I say, my stomach is empty.

My stomach is empty. Positive thinking. My stomach is empty.

Yeah, okay. Okay. Just positive thinking is not going to cure my disease.

Positive thinking is good. But along with that, I have to follow a process. Isn't it? If I don't follow a process to treat myself, just positive thinking is not going to cure me.

Positive thinking can help me or not. But it's not going to cure me. So now we understand this very clearly with respect to our physical disease.

But when it comes to the inner world, we often understand the same thing. Just thinking can make it good. But it's not going to flaw us.

We have to have a process that will transform us. A process that will redirect that love from the spirit, from worldly things to the other world, that which is beyond. So that process is extremely important.

And when there's no process that is offered, there are just high-functioning, sweet-sounding thoughts. And it is important for a person to be able to do that. So only when a person doubts, then that person can learn.

If it's right, if it's wrong. So it is not that there is any spirituality, etc., everything to be done. We will discuss about doubt more in the future.

But the important thing is, many times we will be suffering years to clear those ashtangas, or have a long beard, or speak some Sanskrit verses, then that person will be very wise. He will be saying, this is spirituality. No, we have to be intelligent.

We have to be sensitive to what is right and what is not. Doubt has importance. Doubt is a kind of intelligence.

But doubt is not only this kind of intelligence. Doubt is a kind of intelligence, but doubt is not the only kind of intelligence. When I go to a doctor, I have to have doubt, does the doctor make sense? But if I keep doubting all doctors, I'll never get cured.

So at one particular point, there may be doubt, but beyond doubt, I have to do something. So, as a rule, we'll have one incident. So, Manashekhar was following Sai Baba's instructions.

So he had done this mantra, and he said, before you use this mantra, you have to get rid of the thoughts. So, initially, he studied philosophy, and he studied philosophy because he was actually interested in knowing the fruits of life. But then he found most of his philosophy teachers were very skeptical of him.

He said, one of his teachers asked him first. So, what is philosophy? So, he said, so he raised his hand and said, philosophy means, you know, who am I? Where have I come from? And where am I going? So he thought it was a very serious matter. So, his professor nodded his head.

There was a student in this college, with this notion of spirituality, with this notion of philosophy. And this student said to him, that I am Professor Dree, I came from Bombay, and I work for Odyssey. So, basically, this man referred to the word philosophy.

And then he found that, why was this philosopher so skeptical? He found that he would learn one philosophy, and for one week, he would learn one philosophy, for example, the natural chemical chemistry. And after that, so, some other teacher comes up, and he constantly smashes the previous person's philosophy. And he smashes Kant's philosophy.

So, he realized, that if I just go down based on logic, if you know it, every, the whole sequence of argument, counter-argument, and counter-counter-argument, that has no end. And over a period of time, he said, I revised my whole text, of which philosophy I had fallen in love with, which philosophy was likely to be right. And he said, although my text had got unequal in argument and counter-argument, but I thought that was a game, which you just play.

So, he said, that my criteria was, if a person is teaching you a philosophy, what is the quality of life of that person? I want to become like that person. Just, if I follow that philosophy, I will become like that person. Do I really want to become like that person? And he said, just by this rule of thumb, I was able to disturb.

What I understood the philosophy is, because the people who were living with those philosophies, were always frustrated and disillusioned. And then, eventually what happened, I became a skeptic. I became a game follower.

Any philosophy you present, find the opposite and shoot it. Any philosophy, find the opposite and shoot it. And, so he said, I became a high priest on the altar of skepticism.

So, and I was there, but my heart was completely empty. And, before he met Shri Radha Gopal, he said, that my problem, I never assumed, that I could explain even a rigid law of philosophies. But then, I realized that I was, I had chosen skepticism as my philosophy.

Now, whatever he is saying, I doubt it. But then he said, I realized something, that they had their own friends together on this skepticism. You know, I am realizing that we are not, we are skeptical of everything, except skepticism.

What does it mean? He says, we are not even skeptical, we are not skeptical of skepticism. That's what he means. He said, by skepticism, we will be able to find out what is wrong, but we will never be able to find out what is right.

Isn't it? If I want to find holes in a vertical philosophy, I can find it out. I can move my brain and stretch it this way, ask questions that way, ask questions that way. By skepticism, I will be able to find out what is wrong, but skepticism has no capacity to tell me what is right.

So that's why he said, at that time, in my skepticism, a small crack was in me, and that crack was enough for Krishna to leave. And then, when he met Shri Rupa, he said, the first thing that I observed about Shri Rupa was that he was not at all anything like the philosophy taught to them. There was no skepticism, no skepticism, which involves courage of conviction, and a sociology of purpose, and a want that is not for representation.

That I had not found in him. There was courage of conviction. There was no skepticism, cynicism, doubt.

And Prabhupada did not have all those qualities. There was courage of conviction, and a sociology of purpose. You see, this person, this is what struck many people when they met Shri Rupa.

This old man, a number of them, came here from America, aged 17, had no money, no contacts, no institutional support. What does he want? Something that he wanted. He just wanted to share.

Sociology of purpose, and a want that is so important. I don't need it. And then, over a period of time, I started practicing spirituality.

And then what happened is that I kept practicing spirituality. Initially, I doubted that God exists. I knew the logic.

I could make good arguments for the existence of God. But, it is not that I believe in God. I knew logic would go both ways.

And I kept practicing Krishna Consciousness for many years. And then suddenly, one day, I realized that I believed in God. I believed in God with an unshakable conviction.

It was not that I would make logical arguments to justify the existence of God. It's just that I knew the existence of God. And this had to not just be the existence of God.

Another thing was that Krishna is God. There is a spiritual world. Then I was surprised.

So, I was supposed to just kept it. And I depended on logic. So, then I decided, with my logic, I will try to break my faith in God.

So, I tried to make logical arguments against my belief. But then, I found that my faith within just effortlessly threw away my logic. It just threw away all my… It was as if the faith existed inside me independently.

The faith was there independent of my intellectual analysis, independent of my logical processing. So, the faith was just there. And what had happened? So, what had happened was that actually the process of Krishna Consciousness had transformed.

What does this mean? You remember, I earlier talked about two levels of state, Shraddha and Nishtha. Shraddha is the tradition, the common lines of the Bhagavad Gita. Tradition is Shraddha.

And then, a later stage is Nishtha. So, after Shraddha comes Saraswati Samhita. And after that, there is Arjuna and Priya.

We start practicing the process of duality. In the fourth stage is Anartha and Yudhi. We start seeing with Anartha's goal.

And after that, there is Nishtha. Strong, unchanging faith. So, this faith is based on inner experience, inner transformation.

Seeing that actually I have been transformed and I am a doctor. I may or may not have been a doctor initially, but if a doctor's medicine is curing me, then even if somebody writes a paper on medical journals that the doctor's medicine is wrong, then you don't know what is wrong. I have been cured by it.

Isn't it? So, it's like somebody gives to somebody else. Diagnosis is wrong, we shall cure. Well, it doesn't make sense.

You can go on logically and write that this is wrong. If it is cured, then I have been cured. So, here what this means is we surely need to have our intellect with us.

We have to use our doubting faculty, our rational faculty. But I definitely do not think all questions will be answered just using our logic. The questions will be answered and the faith will be nurtured by the process of human transformation.

And the process of that transformation happens when we practice knowledge. Certainly, we give philosophy to the patient so that he can practice knowledge. But ultimately it is people who practice knowledge.

And the practice will be transformed. The practice will cure us. And that will lead us to a strong level of faith.

And to get to that level of faith, we should be we should definitely ask questions. But at the same time, we can't demand that all questions be answered immediately. Spirituality is a profound subject.

It will take time. And when doubts come up, if we just develop the doubts, then we become devoid of skepticism. We become devoid of doubt.

And what does that mean? Doubt can never hold us false. But doubt can never hold us faithful. Therefore, eventually, I have to do it.

I have my doubts. I should address my doubts. Get my questions answered as soon as possible.

But eventually, it is ultimately the way by which I practice the process and experience the transformation that will actually cure me. So, I'll summarize. Then you can have questions and answers.

I started by talking about the reason and logic should be our minister, not our master. So, why does minister mean subordinate, not superordinate? And then in that direction, I insist about what does it mean? What does spiritual knowledge require? To fear illusion. A person caught watching a TV.

They pretend there's a whole world around. You have your relatives. You have your friends.

I don't know anything. A person caught watching the TV. How does he know there's another reality around? Actually, when it's with extreme amount of obsession with the TV, and then they go overboard and explore.

What is there beyond it? And more works require me. Maybe there's not the whole reality. There's something beyond.

So, Shraddha, their presence, Sanyadevi Ram, and Tattvata. Now, if we are together, then one can… For the relationship between logic and spiritual advancement or transformation, like, what can logic do? Like a medicine, when I go to a doctor, I get medicine. Logic can help me understand the process.

Logic can help me understand how I apply the process. But logic is not a process. And logic is not an obstacle for the process.

Logic is not a medicine. Logic is not a way to cure me when I go to a doctor. I have to use my logic to understand that this is the right medicine.

And by this time, whatever I need to do, I can take it to a doctor. But ultimately, it's not logic that is going to cure me. So, let me discuss apart from these two more examples, for the relationship between logic and the faith that comes by transformation so that man can be a faith.

Remember the third example? That's it. So, medicine, man. Let's discuss these three examples.

And then after that, we discussed about how faith in spiritual processes comes gradually. Because the knowledge that we get from scriptures is called the law of God actually. Something that we hear first time makes sense immediately.

Something that we hear, analyze, discuss, and then it makes sense. On earth, something which we hear, analyze, discuss, and practice. Practice.

And then, after some practice, then it starts making sense. So, by looking at the television, is there a world beyond the television? I can't really know it ultimately. But slowly I start taking my vision of the television and start looking around.

Is there really a world beyond this? So, that's how when you practice, then you start experiencing spiritual reality. And then, there are some things, because God has defined which we never understand in terms. Because God is not a servant of God's image.

God is pure logic. Logic is not God. God is written in logic as a whole character.

And then, we discussed about lives. Not only in the spiritual field, but in the spiritual field. I discussed in science how wonderful it is to understand.

And then, how historically, science has been divided among the empiricists and the rationalists. And how Einstein also wavered from one position to another. Being unable to come to a conclusion.

Then, we discussed again the same point of application. So, we discussed how to wake up and decide what you are going to do in life. Culture, tradition, knowledge, and logic.

So, all these are important. But ultimately, these are all valid. They are valid, they are valuable, but they are also valid.

So, if you want to explore in the spiritual knowledge, when we apply that, actually, that is a process that will cure us. That is a process that will transform us. And lastly, we concluded by discussing about the role of doubt.

Doubt enables us to know what is wrong. And that's why doubt is important. That we do not get misled by ideas.

By the same logic, doubt can only tell us what is wrong. It cannot tell us what is right. That's why spirituality is skeptical of all the skepticism.

In practice, by which our faith will go from shraddha to the level of nishtha. And in that process of going from shraddha to nishtha, what is there is, what actually causes that is the transformation of the heart. And the transformation of the heart is inspired when we see those whose hearts have been transformed.

Thank you very much. Are there any questions? Do we have a mic? Yes. Okay.

Sometimes, we come to the conclusion which is right, but the basis for that conclusion is wrong. So is that okay? It's not the best situation, but if the conclusion is right, then it's good. So in general, say, somebody doesn't know much philosophy, but in childhood, somebody brought the culture of Vishnu.

And the person practices the Vishnu right from the childhood. And goes on lifelong practice of Vishnu. So the conclusion is right, and a person can take the risk which he wants because he doesn't love Vishnu, so he will go back to Vishnu.

So, as long as the conclusion is right, it's fine. At the same time, especially for people who are intellectually minded. We may feel that I don't have any doubts now, but life is such that sooner or later doubts will come.

Just like, see, in spiritual life there are two obstacles. We have a subtle body, there are minor obstacles. So the mind creates the obstacle of desires.

And the intelligence creates the obstacle of doubts. So, both these are obstacles to spiritual life. Now, I may think that, okay, I had a particular desire and I have overcome everything.

I don't suffer from that problem. I don't have a temptation. But that doesn't mean the temptation is not happening.

It can happen, you know. So just as desires are everything, I don't have a problem right now. I may have a particular desire that may come in the future.

Similarly, doubt is also like that. I may not have the doubt now, but I may get the doubt in the future. So therefore, to deal with the doubt is always good to have others intellectually good also.

That means that if my process of reasoning, by which I have arrived at the truth, is also good, is also sound, then my practice will be more stable. Otherwise, if I'm not really convinced that I'm not the body, I'm the soul, then I may practice Vishnu Maharshi's alphabetic little nines, yes, chanting the nines, chanting the nines, prasadam of the nines. But then, if I start having difficulties, maybe there's some problem, sometimes I don't chant, it's also nice, sometimes I don't chant, it's also nice, you have to deal with the whole thing.

This is what you do. This is something good to deal with. And there's always the whole thing to deal with.

If I don't believe, what is the problem? So, however, if I destroy my philosophy, then I'm not the body, I'm the soul. So, even if I don't feel like I'm the body, I'm the soul, the spirit will come and go. Which is the wise person, whatever emotions come, they're coming and going to the head of the person.

So, that's why it's good for us to have a good intellectual foundation for our practice. It's not essential. If one has come to the right conclusion, one can make social advancement even if one is not philosophically, logically, intellectually astute.

But because doubts can help us, and if we have gone through the process of logical reasoning, and have made our convictions intellectually also strong, then we are better able to fight the doubts as an individual. Any other questions? Will Krishna be more happy if we actually go through a whole process of intellectual growth, and not just accept something because that's what we have learned in our culture, but that intellectual growth is also there. That's why the Bhagavad Gita is so present.

So Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita, says, If one is to be, he says, contemplate deeply and on his life-work. So, intellectual growth is the whole purpose of these scriptures. But at the same time, even in the Hindu culture, it was not that accurately discussed philosophy.

If you see, how do you like Christian persons? These are the Michelangelo's Christian persons. So philosophy is discussed by the intellectual elite to a large extent. And after all the intricacies of philosophy, not just basic philosophical knowledge of body and soul, physical and motor.

These are the common knowledge in the dictates. But for the common people, the focus is more on basic philosophical concepts plus the past tense. And that is what we uniquely inherit from Michelangelo.

Being spiritually enriched by his past tense. So ultimately the essence of spirituality is not, yes, the father does want to grow, his child to grow. But the essence of spirituality is not intellectually, it is spiritually.

Spiritual growth is predirected by love, there is no intuition. So if our intellectual conviction helps us with that, that's fine, we use it. But intellectual growth, for you and me, is not enough for us to go back to the old ways.

So there may be many advanced Europeans, they may not be very intellectually sophisticated. But still, they are advanced because they have learned to love Christianity. So our understanding should be that if I have doubts, I have to use my doubts.

It's like, not everybody may have particular kind of desires. If somebody has never drunk, that person cannot have a temptation of alcohol. For example, if you have a temptation of alcohol, then it's better that person do not drink.

Others do not have that problem. So some people who are not intellectuals, they don't have doubts. So because they don't have doubts, so the danger is that they may go to a wrong path.

But then they accept the wrong path because they don't love it. But if they come to the right path, then we continue and we can return to Christianity by practicing holy service. What is required is non-intellectualism.

A non-intellectual doesn't have to be an intellectual to become a serious Christian. That's the way for it. But if somebody already has an intellectual conviction, and all of you are from the West Indies, it shows that all of you have an intellectual conviction.

To some extent. So for ourselves, we should try to grow intellectually also. And try to get our questions answered.

But to do that, every question needs to be answered before we can follow the process. We understand something, we follow the process, then we get to the materializations and transformations where we pick up and then we follow the process further. Do you understand what I am saying? So generally, you see the critical point of this thing, which I was trying to focus on when I was with you guys, Shraddhamala Kriyan.

Normally, people think that by studying I will get knowledge. By discussion I will get knowledge. By contemplation I will get knowledge.

But in action I think I really won't get knowledge. That means, initially, it's not about analyzing, discussing and contemplating. But beyond that, in terms of spirituality, it's also that I need freedom.

Freedom is a positive thing. Freedom is a practical process. So let it transform.

Let people be trained to a higher level. Okay? Something more? Anyone? Can we come back to you after? Yeah, you can ask further. What do you want to say? You can ask.

Yes. Can study be encouraged? Because curiosity, we say scientists have the curiosity to understand the world. They know that spirituality has a foundation.

That's why they don't come towards spirituality. But there are some who need to present logically, systematically, rationally. Their curiosity is spiritually motivated.

Now personally, curiosity is not the same mode of passion. Curiosity is a characteristic of consciousness. When I am conscious naturally, I am aware of things.

And I will always have curiosity. I can't, as a person, still have curiosity. Can I sleep in a class without being noticed? No, why would I sleep? Because I get weak.

So, everybody has a curiosity. But depending on our level of consciousness, curiosity will act in a particular way. So, when I am spiritually curious, my curiosity will act as a spiritual reality.

When my curiosity is in the mode of goodness, then it's directed towards concepts. When concepts, conceptual extenuities of this world. To some extent.

And of course, curiosity towards spiritual understanding, but not in India. When I am passionate, then my curiosity is directed towards eating, sleeping, writing, reading. Actually, people say they want to know what is the best score, what is the top prize, what is the latest trend in a particular sporting event.

All that is curiosity. It's in the mode of passion. So, curiosity can be in all these fields.

In today's society, most people are curious in the mode of passion and in goodness. But, how do we direct this curiosity spiritually? Especially the intellectual. Physically.

But, if you wanted the presentational consciousness to be customized for different people. So, he had started a forum called the Thirar Institute. And basically, the idea was he wanted to target four different audiences.

He wanted devotees to be trained for specific purposes. So, those were intellectual yogis. They could be scientists, they could be scholars, they could be prostitutes.

They could be trained. So, one of the ideas was they go and directly interact with the scholars. So, like, if they interact with scholars, they go to scientific conferences, write papers, and read scientific journals.

And that's how they influence the intellectually lively society. This intellectually lively society are quite small. Now, how do people read scientific journals? Generally, it's of a special sort.

So, those are the people who are shaping the rise of novelty. Shatrughan wanted some devotees to go and interact with him. And then, other was, he also wanted devotees to reach out in other intellectuals.

This is all intellectual outreach. This cultural outreach, reading papers, having a chat class, that sort of thing. In intellectual outreach, he wanted four things.

One is to reach directly to the intellectuals, the scholars. Second is to reach to the students. For students in universities, I want to reach the intellectuals.

Third of all, he said, reach out to general reading, general public, general newspaper. That is, through newspapers, through books for general reading, through the television, through the internet, at an internal market, but through the big piece of mass communication. And fourth was, through the devotees themselves.

Through the devotees themselves means what? Not all devotees are intellectually lively. So, those senior devotees who are intellectuals, if they know also that there is some younger, upcoming, younger intellectual here, then that should be special facility provided for training. So, why should we support four distinct audiences, especially women and scientists, then we shouldn't confuse.

So, in general, if you find that there is somebody who is more intellectually oriented, then it brings a very sophisticated perception about she is also a villain. If somebody is scientifically oriented, there is Mahatma Gopal's most scientifically astute set of books of literature and books throughout the world. So, there is a book called Mechanistic and Non-Mechanistic Science.

It's a classic mystery. And that book talks about how spirituality is also science. And there is too many people and it has got a lot of good reviews from people in this field.

So, those who are having that kind of special intellectual nature, then they can reveal some special set of books. Not that those books contain something which is not there elsewhere. But the presentation is made in a more profound way.

More rich way. So, there is no one who is required for help them. So, that's why, now what you are saying is, is it necessary? It's for people who need it, it's necessary and we should provide it.

But it is not something which is necessary for anybody. Any other questions? Yes, yes, please. I heard that the air world today, today, the material world looks very much real and the spiritual world looks very much imaginary.

So, why it's so and how can I come and get out of it? The material world is very real and the spiritual world is very illusive. Yes, that's true. He said, this world is an upside down planet.

Now, an upside down planet, whether it creates a dream or not, it's forever. It's a perfected one. So, actually, if I jump into the dream, if I jump into the dream, if I say, I'm going to dream, and I want to make a rainbow, and I jump into the reflection, into the river, where the reflection is there, to catch the light, then what will happen? I'm not in the dream.

Because, it's a reflection. So, however, if I'm just looking at one level of perfection, I'm not looking upwards towards the power line, I'm still looking at the water, then I can't see anything else. So, that is our situation.

What will happen? This world is like a reflection. But because our vision is limited to the reflection, so, the reflection seems to be the reality, and the reality seems to be like a substantial idea. But, how do we know? Depending on their pleasures.

That's why Allah's vision is portrayed in this world. And when you join them, they all turn out to be chemicals. Chemicals.

At best, they all turn out to be disasters also. So, actually speaking, I have to experience this. What joy! It's not there only, there is so many.

So, we all experience it sometime or the other. Not sometime or the other, repeatedly, but sometimes it's very close to your experiences. Someday, you should get into it.

I want to get this, I want to get this, I want to get this. And when you get there, finally, then there's nothing else. Then there's nothing else.

That was so powerful. It's not easy. There must be something more.

There must be something higher than that. So, when we relax at these worldly pleasures, and sometimes we cherish, we get to do more things. There must be something higher.

So, Leo Tolstoy was a famous thinker in Russia. So he said, a man has to do something. So, now only man looks for the light.

And when the finite frustrates man, then the man must liberate from it. Otherwise, he will not be able to. So, what happens is, all of us, in our experience of spiritual life, or in our experience of material life, we are all chasten of the finite things.

So, when we get it, we experience the finite things to be unequivocal. And then what happens? If we take another illusion, then this finite thing will not make me happy. Let me try something else.

Let me try something else. You try something else. And that's how I can go on doing it.

Or, we can choose the infinite. So, all of us, we are good for 25 years, whatever. And we have experienced to some extent, that all the pleasures of the world that are, so I can say, vanity, they are not what we seem to be.

So, we all hear about it. But when we try to experience them, they are they have become a branch. Actually, pleasure is not as great as we are thinking.

The political pleasure comes out to be very much. So, when we get these realizations, they can be defining in ways in our life. And we need to cherish those moments.

And then, we will be directed to the future of our life. So, for me, since my childhood, I was a little bit disinterested in where my family was to live in the Netherlands. I wanted to study, and study, and study.

I used to like, I liked houses almost in my life. Houses, I mean, not an exaggeration, houses almost. So, and my goal was, to us, it's my goal, that I wanted to, I felt that this knowledge, that something I wanted to achieve.

That, because since the knowledge itself was verbal and verbal, that was my ambition. That means, one person's knowledge had to lead to the development of a person's character, a person's intellect, form, and gentlemanly, and very mature. But, as I was studying my engineering, I tried with my seniors, I had my printers.

So, one time, my original aim was to be studying astrophysics. I wanted to be an astrophysicist. So, I was studying in NASA, there was a center, a university center for astrophysics and astronomy.

So, there, I was in touch with a professor. So, this professor was a double doctorate from America, and now he's doing post-doctoral research in Atlantis, and that's it. So, for, I was quite impressed by him, and I said, do you need him? He was a brilliant lecturer, he showed me all his papers.

But then, I found that he was also a genius. So, some people believe there's nothing wrong with some people chasing them, but for me, it was in China. And I thought, studying space would be so exciting.

So, if the subject is so exciting, then why does this, you know, all the intellectual person understand that smoking is not something which is very good, very harmful. You know, it is like, you know, cigarette smoking decreases weight. Why is that like that? Laughter Laughter So, I was jointed at that time.

Although I didn't realize what was wrong, maybe something is true. And then, around that time, so, I had a plan, I wanted to go to America, then I came. So, I was always among the good students, among the top students in my class.

But I was never the top. A single one number that, I was never there. Always second, sometimes joined first, sometimes third.

So, my dream was that, first I wanted to get some knowledge to give me higher happiness. In other words, I wanted to be the distinct number, unique number, in some ways. So, around this time itself, this was all about 6 months to 1 year before I reached consciousness.

So, I was 96. So, this was one event, which the idea that this higher happiness and knowledge, that got shaken up. And around that time, I did GRE.

And in GRE, I got a very good score. I was not just the topper in my college. I was the topper in the history of my college.

I was the topper as I can now acknowledge. This is what I didn't talk about in the beginning. I thought, I will be so happy.

And then, after I did that, I was having something, then I said, then all of us will come to congratulate me. You must be happy. But then, over a period of time, I realized, this is not really happening.

There is no intrinsic happiness in the world. There is some very good thing. I will not congratulate him.

Does anybody know? Why is he not congratulating me? Would he be envious of me? How are you ignorant? Oh my God! I didn't speak like that. But, oh my God! Then I instructed him. And actually, just achieving this this phenomenal, this good marks, there is no intrinsic happiness.

Actually, it has made me more dependent on external circumstances. I achieved something, but now, I did not get any happiness by achieving it. I needed something external to become happy.

Because I have become more dependent on externals. Because earlier, I would not have said, I am inside. Because all of you congratulated me, respected me.

But now, I have got inside. And then, I thought, I can go to America. Maybe I can become a talker in university like that.

Again, I may get a restriction. Why? It is not going to be lasting happiness. It is not a intrinsic happiness.

So, is there something that will make me intrinsic? Something like that. That was what I thought. So, Krishna arrived in such a way, and just soon, I saw mantra for these two evidences.

And then, I systematically understood what Krishna means. And then, I read Bhagavad Gita in 6.23 in the morning. Krishna gives us the characteristic of what is real achievement.

So, Krishna says that highest achievement, he is talking about the highest achievement in Samadhi, of inner happiness, has two characteristics. He says one is, if you achieve it, you will not hunger for anything. यंदः भूआ चाहूब यंदः भूआ चाहूब Once you achieve it, then nothing more you want.

अन्य देना निका उतता There is nothing greater to achieve. So, Krishna says that The achievement that happens is to free us from all kind of dreams. There is something higher to achieve, isn't it? This is so great, that nothing will cause us annihilation.

So, now, if you look at any achievement in this world, can any achievement ever be achieved? If there is an achievement that we don't want to reach, we are not going to reach it. There is nothing like that. Even if somebody becomes the most important person in the world, will he presently have a marriage? What's changing is, behind this, I should get a second degree, I should get a retirement degree, or get an accreditation, or I cannot get a job, I was working only for four years.

No achievement in this world can actually promise us this, not to dream and not to achieve. So, what I observed was that this person, this Simca scientist, he had achieved something which was at one level like my dreams, and still he was dreaming, for something so trivial as a cigarette. Isn't it? Cigarette.

So, what does that mean? You know, I had achieved something which is my dream, in my experience, not I achieved it, but one of my important dreams. One of my most important dreams. So, what I realized is that when we achieve things, we cannot be a person who might be in a relationship.

And that's why, I mean, I'm not a person, I speak to you as a person. So, yes, the thing of this world, you see, we hear it once. But, when we achieve that dream, we don't improve after that dream.

And then, depending on that, that is an impetus for exploring the present moment. So, that is how we understand that what is visible is not necessarily behind this dream. When I said that the world is a uterus, like a TV, it doesn't mean it's false, it's real.

But it's a uterus, like this is a temple, where there is something that is eternal. So, actually, when we start practicing spirituality, when we start experiencing birth, we feel a lot of happiness. And that happiness, as it predicts us, beyond, beyond the definitions of this world, beyond the hopes of happiness in this world, we must understand this happiness is this temple.

There is something higher, there is something richer. So, on one side, we experience the community of opportunities. On the other side, by the practice of devotional service, we experience the reality of spiritual happiness.

And that way, we understand this, that spiritual happiness is actually real. So, when we come here, to a place like my home, we chant, dance, we pray, the experience of the world, what is that experience? Where does it come from? The result is that it's the highest structure from which the happiness is coming. And that's how we understand that there is a happiness.

And that happiness is spiritual happiness. The father often decides to become individually advised. So, for example, for a devotee, two devotees, if he is not individually advised, then Krishna, who is a boy, will be taken individually advised.

Then all the two devotees in the world should be individually advised. So, if a devotee, if the father wants to be individually advised, will Krishna provide intellectual advice to his devotee? Yes, Krishna says, don't worry about it. I am going to tell you as I am finishing on this topic.

I am going to tell you how to practice your service. It is more important than anything if you are a devotee. If you are not.

But what I have learned is, if you are a devotee, then you need to practice yoga. The intuitions that you can practice in yourself, then you can practice. So, it is not that a non-intellectual will necessarily have become an intellectual like Krishna's means.

It can happen. But it is not necessary that it has to happen. But the devotee will definitely get the intuitions of how to disconnect between matter and spirit, between reality and illusion, and how to be spiritually advanced.

That intuitions, even if a devotee is not philosophically askew, still the devotee will definitely get the intuitions of this. You see, that means there is a material intellectual capacity. That is, for example, memorization.

Some people are very good at memorizing things. But it is not that somebody who was not at all averaged in memorization and co-practice and doing service. It is not that that person suddenly becomes explored.

It may happen. But that doesn't have to happen. So the intellectual capacity at the material side, for example, at the memorization, that is not difficult.

But, the capacity for discrimination – this is good, this is bad, this temperance is eternal, this is real, this is illusion – of that is actually spiritual intelligence. And that spiritual intelligence has very motivated people. You see? Wow! Thank you, Shantanu.

Do we have to consider the stories of the Puranas as a true account of historical events? Or they are just mere project of an author exercising the literary freedom of the generation and writing the historical events? Or just writing the historical events in his own words? So, I have the historical accounts. I have a story of a spiritual literature historical accounts are of a poetic conditions. To be specific, Krishna in Bhagavad Gita gives us that Arjuna is very dear to him.

And he also says that those who are dear to him they come to me. If those who are dear to me they come to me. But then Mahabharata describes that Arjuna and with all the partners and property they went to heaven.

It does not describe that they went to the goal of God. God is Krishna. I'll answer the first question.

The example is slightly different from the second one. The second question is answered slightly differently. are the scriptures describing the events or are they sort of poetic conditions? Well, they are poetic conditions of historical events.

That means this is the Mahabharata timeline. They are poetic. Now it's not that all the people all the time are talking in verses.

Some culture people will talk in verses. But it's not that the brahmana is chastising Hanuman, he's talking in verses. Or it is not that the Rakshakas were attacking the vanaras.

In those days the vanaras were not chastising in verses. So, the events that are there, the death and the fear and the stories that are going to happen in the distant future, I think are described in a poetic form by the Nagarjuna. Now, these passages are extraordinary verses.

Not only in poetic conditions, in some actuality they are lost. But, in these years, as so far and as it is known that the asuras do, then, that time, the essential meaning is never lost. And in many cases, if there is no poetic embellishment, it is clearly made up as a poetic embellishment.

We can take it as a poetic embellishment. For example, when Krishna is describing thousands of devotees, so at that time it says, I do not recite my bhutis. I do not recite in the hearts of devotees.

I recite, I have recited, where my bhutis are. recited my bhutis. So now, how was it supposed to be that Krishna not reciting the bhutis at all? He does not know that he is reciting the bhutis.

But when Krishna is reciting he not the bhutis. He does know that he reciting the bhutis. So when Krishna is reciting the bhutis, he does that he is reciting the bhutis.

So when Krishna is reciting the bhutis, he does not know There was a devotee over there who was a very young artist. Now if I had a specific question, I would say, Mahabharata said that Arjuna went to Swarga and the Bhagavad Gita saying that the devotee will come back to me. See, in terms of virtues, I spoke very positively.

Do you remember I talked about 40%, 60%, 80%? Now for a person who is a devotee of Lord Shiva, then how can I give an increase to a devotee of Lord Shiva? It's going for 40%, 60%, 80%. But for a person who is a devotee of Lord Krishna, 80%, 60%, 80%. There is a difference between the two.

So there is a chance of a much deeper spiritual advance. A much deeper spiritual elevation. So scriptures are a multi-level scripture.

So if you look at the Mahabharata, in the Mahabharata, the spotlight is not on Krishna. The spotlight is on the Pandavas. And even the Pandavas, their primary spotlight is not on how they are workers.

It is on how they are dharmakaris. How they are religiously. What is the difference between religion and being a devotee? See there is a difference.

Religion can also be politically motivated. One may want to be a soldier. And that is not considered wrong.

Actually, if a person is a dharmakari, how is one going to be? So, the Bhagavad Gita, on the other hand, doesn't talk about this level of religiousness. It talks about pure religiousness. The Mahabharata writes everything and it's second and third verses are described.

It's a dharma project. It pushes out all type of religiousness. And extremely religiousness develops.

So, depending on the frame of reference of a particular person, the focus is changed. That means, say, this is a true example. But, say, Prabhupada went to America.

Now, when he came back from America, people were saying, so, now, in general, people in India think America is a spiritual place. If you go to America, you become a very advanced person. And then, so, now, a religious person may go to America or may want to go to America.

And then, if the religious devotee has gone to America and has come back, the focus, the position, is that, oh, this person went to America. This person has come from America. So, now, at a material level, it's true that the person has gone to America and has come from America.

But, a devotee understands that Prabhupada did not go to America for the same purpose. And a religious person did. So, although the facts may be the same, the facts have entirely different meaning.

A religious person thinks that Swami has gone to America. And a devotee does not understand how far back Swami has gone to America. So, you have to see the complete picture to understand what is happening.

So, now, this is Earth. This is Swarga. This is spirituality.

So, now, in the Mahabharata, the focus is on describing how by practicing dharma, one can become happy in this world. So, that's why, King talks about how Satgurudeva is Swarga. So, that's why, at the end of the Mahabharata, the Svarga, Arjuna and Brahma describe that they were Swarga.

However, that is not the end of the story. The story goes on, but those who are dharma-minded, they are not interested in the later part of the story. The later part of the story is that Swarga goes into one state and within the Mahabharata, it is not yet over.

So, that is not the focus of the Mahabharata. When it comes to the Mahabharata, it's not the teaching in the Mahabharata that is going to be delivered. In the Bhagavad Gita, he is talking about dharma in another way.

So, we have to remember, I talked about this, the way the sutras speak, they are unappreciative. We have to be careful. Otherwise, we just take words from here and look at them.

It's not important. So, like that, we see some apparent contradictions between sutras. They are not exaggerations or imaginations, but they are contextual descriptions.

So, it's not that one is right and the other is wrong. They are both right in their own contexts. Any questions? I have one question.

Two questions. Firstly, in spiritual world, we are getting happiness and happiness. But in material world, we are getting non-deterministic happiness.

In spiritual world, if we are getting happiness and happiness, then why do we look for another? If I am getting happiness in this spiritual world, then I will do continuously that work only. I will not go to another work. Whereas, in material world, if I am getting happiness on this, and after that it finishes, then I will try something new.

Again, I will do something new. My second question is that, from your point of view. So, in spiritual life, we are getting continuous happiness.

As contrast to material life, we are getting discontinuous happiness. My second question is, then why would a spiritual life want to do something else? My answer is, that, there is a very focused nature. And, because of which, the soul wants to explore.

So now, we are experiencing an inner-sense, which is no doubt, but that doesn't mean, that the freedom gets locked up. The freedom is there, and the soul has this tender wish for, that, I really have this over here, but maybe there is something Krishna. And so, we are serving Krishna, we are happy in that.

What do you mean by that? Maybe there is something better happening than this. This will happen. If you are with Krishna, what if I don't like Krishna? Again, what happens then? So, that hope is tender wish, because it gets us in the material world.

Now, when we experience futility, because of the intermittence in the inner-sense, we are not going to be happy. We are not going to be happy. We are not satisfied, we are not going to be happy.

Then, we turn back towards Krishna. And here, what has happened is, we have experienced the ultimate. Now we know, that apart from Krishna, whatever happens, there is a reason.

So, there is nothing better, there is far worse. So, when we go back to Krishna, we do not experience. In the worst case, it's not that we are dissatisfied with what we still have, but it's just that, between them, we expose them as something better.

Any question? Q. Guruji, could you give one example of continuous happiness? How could we in a month continue to be happy? A. What is the meaning of continuous happiness? When this happiness comes from developing a personal hope, this will be continuous happiness. It's like, ok, I should talk about happiness in two ways. One is, as a concept, in other, a feeling.

So, the concept, if you visualize it correctly, you have something called an uninterrupted positive. New Christmas. If it's truly uninterrupted, if it's connected to a proper happiness, if the connection is continuous, then the positive life will be continuous.

So, like that, Krishna is a source of unending happiness. Sarva-sutra says, Krishna is ananda-dhara. He is a observer of all happiness.

And once that established connection with Krishna, then, if that connection is steady, then the happiness will be steady for all human beings. So, it's like a conceptual, because it happens to be like an episteme. On the other hand, happiness also means a feeling.

So, as a feeling, it's basically that we love somebody. Then, when that, in this person, in this world, we love somebody, it's always something that fits inside me. If I love him, then I can't love him.

That's why in human beings there is a whole concept of love language and knowledge. And there are constructs of love language. So, what happens is, in this world, our love always fits into fragmentation.

A lot of us cannot understand this. But Krishna, loving Krishna has a beautiful fragmentation. Because, Krishna has zero existence.

Krishna is connected with everyone and everybody. That's why when we choose to love Krishna and Allah loves Krishna, then it is love in all situations, in all places, in all circumstances. So, in India, in America, in India, in America.

So, why does Krishna need Krishna for existence? All of them need Krishna for existence. That's why through everything and everywhere we can know Krishna. So, in this world, there is no other object we can have than Krishna, which can be connected with everything in every human being.

That's why when people devote their entire life So, by that connection with Krishna, I conceptualize that because the connection is continuous, the source of happiness is always there, so it will be always there. And I think because Krishna consumes all existence, therefore, our connection with Krishna can always be there. And that is the beauty of love from which the world happens.

So, I would like to stop here. Last question. How can we feel that we are changing? Just a minute, please.

We have become removed from Krishna. Like say Krishna is sitting right next to us. But I am fondly watching the TV.

So, I don't even notice it. So, we have become removed from Krishna. So, that entraps us.

We turn our face towards Krishna. And then, we turn our face towards Krishna and serve him. And then, Swamiji has told us that Krishna reveals himself.

And that revolution will take place. So, that revolution will come by Krishna's will. But by our will, we can turn towards Krishna.

So, just by gently, like you are doing a gentle thing, you find that we are changing. Like serving the needy, like getting such things, like holding down a button, are changing things. And also, we can study the philosophy of the world.

We can study the philosophy of the world. It's not that philosophy itself, that studying philosophy of the world is our way, but that the studying is done in the moral service. Krishna won't understand it all the time.

Krishna won't understand it all the time. But if you are intellect in a devotional form, Krishna's intelligence is worship of you without negligence. And that also is trust and humility.

Thank you very much. Krishnagopal ki Jai! Jai! Jai!