​Bhagavatam canto 6 study 3 – 6.2.1-28 Bhakti’s potency is not a license for immorality

​Bhakti Vaibhav class for brahmacharis at Govardhan Eco-village, Wada, Mumbai

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

So let's continue with our discussion on the Bhagavatam. Second chapter we'll start now. Of the 6th canto, the first chapter describes basically the incidents centered on first the conversation between Shukadeva Goswami and Bajir Maharaj where Shukadeva Goswami talks about how the process of bhakti is the best means of atonement and purification.

And in the story of Ajamayi, first the narrative of the story that is described starting from his fall till the end and then the conversation between Yamadutas and Vishuddhas where there is a slight backflash when the Yamadutas speak about his earlier life. And then the Yamadutas describe the system of cosmic governance, especially cosmic justice and they conclude that by this system, because he has acted sinfully and because he has not performed atonement, therefore he is culpable. So now the Vishuddhas will reply.

So text 1, 6.2.1 śrī-bādhārāya nirvāca evam te bhagavad-gūtā yamdutā-vibhāṣitaṁ upadhāryātha tānrājan pratyāhur nayakovidah pratyāhur nayakovidah evam te bhagavad-gūtā In this way, when the Vishuddhas, Bhagavad-gūtās were addressed by Yamadutā-vibhāṣitaṁ upadhāryātha tānrājan when they appropriately, when they were spoken thus, they responded or ājan, chūdeva svāmī śrīmparakṣit mahārāja pratyāhur nayakovidah they responded appropriately because they were nayakovidah kovidah means expert, naya is a variant of nyāya so rules of justice, rules of administration they were aware of that, rules of conduct nayakovidah and therefore they responded so now from the next verse onwards, the response will start So, Vishwanath Chikkatak's commentary explains that this chapter has three main sections first is the Vishuddha's response to the Yamadutā's arguments second is the repentance of Ajāmila and the third is the ascent of Ajāmila to Vaikuntha So, the first part is conversation and the next two parts are the narrative of events that are happening second text śrī viṣṇudūta-ūcchu śrī viṣṇudūta-ūcchu ahokashtam dharmadrishām ahokashtam dharmadrishām adharma-skṛṣate sabhām adharma-skṛṣate sabhām yatra-daṇyeśva-apāpeśu yatra-daṇyeśva-apāpeśu dandogye dhriyate yathā dandogye dhriyate yathā ahokashtam, how unfortunate it is, what a calamity it is in the realm of dharma, dharmadrishām it is a dangerous calamity for dharma, just see it adharma-skṛṣate sabhām in this assembly, adharma has touched yatra-daṇyeśva-apāpeśu a person who is not sinful, who is not worthy of being punished dandogye dhriyate yathā he is not being unnecessarily punished so the Yamadūtas, the Viṣṇudūtas their speech is quite rhetorical earlier also when the Yamadūtas asked them who you are they did not answer the question they said if you say that you are the servants of Dharmarāja then tell what is dharma and now when they have said that Therefore, he should be punished and what they are responding, they are saying, oh how unjust it is. That one who is sinless, one who is not worthy of being punished, such a person is being punished. So the Vishnu Dutas will give a systematic counter of what has been spoken till now.

So ahokastham. Now this ahokastham is a common way of expressing grief or disapproval in the Bhagavatam. The first cantor, ahokastham aho anyayam yadiyo dharmanandana.

So Bhishma Pitamah speaks to Krishna Maharaja, just see how much misfortune you have had to suffer. How grievous it is. Ahokastham.

So that same phrase comes in the Bhagavatam here again. Now let's move on to the next text. 13th is prajanam pitaroye ca shastarah sadhavah samah yadisyate suvaysamyam kamyanti sharanam prajah So prajanam pitaroye ca.

So praja for the pitara. Now the word pitara can refer to father or the word pitara can also refer to protector. Just like the word praja.

Ja it can be related to the word janma. So praja can refer to a child or offspring. Or praja can refer to citizens, both.

So prajanam pitaroye ca. So for the citizens, those who are meant to be protectors, shastarah sadhavah samah. So those who are supposed to teach shastra, those who are supposed to give spiritual knowledge, sadhah, they are supposed to be same thing.

They are supposed to be good people, samaham. And they should not be partial. They should be equipoised in all situations.

Yadisyate suvaysamyam. So those who are meant to be equipoised, those who are supposed to be virtuous, if they start exhibiting partiality, if they start acting oppositely, suvaysamyam. Suvaysamyam means the opposite of what is expected.

In one context it can be partiality. In a broader context it means the opposite of what is expected. Then kamyanti sharanam prajahah.

Then where will citizens go for shelter? So again it is a rhetorical question here. That means there will be no shelter left for them. So it's like if thieves loot, then people go to the police.

But if the police loot, where will the people go? So those who are meant to be protectors of the law, they start violating the law, then what will happen? Where will people go? And unfortunately this becomes a situation in Kali Yuga in many places. In the 11th canto it says, dasyeshu rajan neshu. It says that actually the kings become plunderers in Kali Yuga.

Now actually speaking at one level the world is always a place of misery. Wherever it is, whichever yuga it is, it is not that Satyuga was a place of happiness. Janmabhuta jaradhan is always there and the trivitta apadha is also always there.

I mean some exceptional situation when the lord appears, at that time it may be that or the great devotees are only, at that time there may be prosperity. But overall this world is a place of misery. At the same time there are grades of misery.

So, grades of misery means that even in this world we could say that America is relatively prosperous and say some country in Africa, Somalia or something that is relatively poverty stricken. Even in India there is a wide variety. Say some parts of the country are quite reasonably prosperous, some other parts of the country are very backward.

Now backward we do not just mean in terms of not having technological facility. Backward means even basic human needs are not available very easily or even with difficulty they are difficult to get. So, now this sort of diversity is there and purpose of good administration is to ensure that people's basic needs are taken care of and one need for people in general is justice.

You know wheat crop or food, clothing, shelter as basic needs that is there. But the world is such that there are, there is always some kind of iniquity comes up. There are always some exploiters who will exploit people and then there has to be some system of justice.

And then when the system of justice is there then people feel relatively protected. So, when the kings become exploiters then it becomes a big big problem. So, for example, now kings may not be exploiters in a very, in today's world the heads of state or the political governments they may not be exploiters in the literal sense that they are not going out and plundering people.

They are not going and looting people literally. But often the protection that is meant to be offered, that protection is not offered at times. And when protection is not offered people don't know where to go to seek protection.

So, for example, in America the food industry is very rigidly controlled by many big MNCs. So, recently our devotees had a festival of inspiration. I think it was Bhakti Fest or some other festival.

So, there they have got huge quantity of milk from the farm in Gitanagar. Now America has certain food standards that every food that is transported from one place to another it has to be packed properly, it has to be labeled properly, it has to be accounted for by the food authorities and then only it can be transported. And it is not done like that.

You know like we have cottage industries where people make their own food and sell on a small level. That sort of thing is not only illegal it is culpable. You know if you want to produce food and eat it fine.

If you want to sell food at any commercial level you have to get it authorized. At one level it's a reasonable measure for protection. But then this whole thing gets so controlled by the corporate media, corporate giants that things become for the small players it becomes very difficult to operate.

So, this milk that was transported from there to here, it was several very pure milk which was several hundreds of liters. But it was not properly labeled. And then the food authorities came there and they literally forced the devotees to throw all the milk down the drain.

It was good quality milk, no problem at all. But it was, it was not monitored properly. So, now the intention here may be right.

They want to ensure that there is no food poisoning or there is no pollution because of caused by the food. That intention is fine. But in the implementation if it is done in such a way that the small players get completely sidelined and only big players have a room then that becomes unfair.

So, like that there are often exploitative policies which prevent people from functioning well. So, this is also not literally plunder. But it is also ultimately a kind of serious iniquity.

And after all if the government is doing this what can anyone do? So, quite often it happens that in Japan it has happened 2-3 times. In many countries it happens that say there is, there is the health ministry. And the health ministry says that now smoking is causing so much health problems.

Now so many people are falling sick and this and that and that. And it is taking a huge toll on the national economy. Because see government normally think of everything in economic terms.

So, they will say that it is a huge toll on the economy. Therefore, we should have some more serious education, anti-smoking campaigns and things like that. In the government point of view, government itself runs the tobacco department also.

Now that means what? For the government the health is a department which is taking money. And tobacco is a department which is giving money. So, naturally money rules.

So, the health ministry is directed to the sideline. And then people keep falling more and more sick. And from the government's point of view not much can be done.

So, now where will people get protection from in such a situation? So, here the Yamunutas are saying that actually those who are meant to protect Dharma they are themselves doing something wrong over here. So, where will the people go for protection in such a situation? Now another verse is similar to the verse in the Bhagavad Gita. This fourth text.

So, here it says that as the leaders act so people in general will act. See every society needs role models. And every society has role models.

But whether those role models are worthy role models or unworthy role models that determines the fate of the society. So, in the society basically there are three modes Satva Guna, Raju Guna, Tamoguna. And even if you look at 50-100 years ago whether it is India or the West people's role models were those who were related to Satvik.

May be in America also people had in their American exemplary some national leaders or some thinkers or some writers. Those kind of people were the role models. But now for most people the role models are movie stars or some may be at the base some business magnates or some cricketers.

Now what happens is the role models of people they determine what their aspirations are going to be. So, what we want to be is what we may or may not become that. But if our desires themselves are not to grow something worthy then we are never going to go into something worthy.

So, now what makes people choose some people as role models? In one sense it is the cultural glamorization. In today's media the movie stars or the cricket stars they are glamorized quite a bit. That plays one role in it.

But also beyond that it is a society's those who are in power they often become the models. These people have power. I want to become like this.

So, what happens is to the extent the people who are in power they do not have exemplary behavior. To that extent the whole society's standards go down. And that's why the leaders of a society we can more or less tell that this by looking at the leaders we may not understand the full nature of the society but a broad understanding of the society comes about.

So, now this is both these verses are spoken at a time when there was no democracy. At the time when there was more or less monarchy. So, monarchy means kings were not selected by the people.

But even whether the kings are selected, heads of state are selected or they are coming by heredity they were those who were in power and people would become like them. As they say yatha raja, yatha praja. So, this is not just a principle, a spiritual, it is also a social principle.

It applies in spiritual life also, in spiritual society also the kind of leaders that are there. People become like that. So, here they are saying that because you are the implication in this context, the implication of this verse is that the way you are acting right now, if you do not protect dharma then who is going to protect dharma.

People will also act like that and then dharma will have no protection. Next five verses. uttamaitram achetanam vishrambhaniyo bhutanam sagrnodobdhum arhate So, it's talking about the relationship between the leaders and the subjects.

yasyanke shiradhara yasyanke, on their laps, shiradhara, people lay down their bed, lay down their heads and lokah sapiti nirudha, people lie down as if sleeping. swayam dharmam adharmam va, they do not know in general what is dharma or adharma. nahi vel yatha pashyam, yatha pashyum, almost like animals.

So, people in general are, it is not very discerning. Whatever is the majority, whatever the leaders say, they more or less accept that. And then they accept as right or wrong what the leaders say is right or wrong.

sakatham nirpitaatmanam sakatham nirpitaatmanam means, therefore, when they have in this way actually entrusted their very soul to them. krita-maitra-machetaram, so they are thinking that oh we are in safe hands and they are not very conscious at that time. vishram-baniyam utanam, so leaders are meant to be very affectionate, caring towards their citizens, but if they are not, sabrunododumarati, how can the leaders harm such people? So, citizens who are very trusting, how can they be harmed? So, again they are continuing the same theme of the protectors acting the opposite of protectors.

And this is very regretted, that's the point which they are making. So, this point about, there is in today's world what is called as mobocracy or mob mania. Mob mania means what? If a large number of people come together and then if their passions are invoked, then people as a collective act in irrational ways.

Individually those people, ordinary citizens might be there and ordinary citizens might not do any criminal activity. But if they come together and there is some person who invokes religious passions in them, then they can do things which they would themselves find reprehensible. And that's the way of mob hysteria.

And that's how especially public assemblies, they work that way. If there is one person who can speak in a powerful way, that person triggers the emotions of people. And people can act in terrible ways.

And quite often for triggering people's emotions, religion becomes a tool of the cynical. This happens in Islam primarily. But it is not only in Islam.

In every religion, people's emotions are strongly connected with whatever they consider is sacred. And then once their emotions are triggered, people can be made to act in brutal ways, unconscionable ways. So this is actually mob psychology has been researched a lot, has been extensively researched.

And what happens is there is, it's like a wave, you know, the boat is there in a wave. And the Bhagavad Gita also gives an example of how Vayu Navam Vamasi. That a boat, when a wind comes and sweeps a boat, the boat will go away.

So like that, when there is a mass of people, if a particular boat comes along, if a particular kind of wind comes along, then it just causes people to sweep crazy. So for example, Hitler, you know, 15-20 years, he just brainwashed the whole of Germany. And Jews who had lived most of their life in Germany, it's a lot of Germans, these are IDs.

Just take care, not just one or two or one thousand or five thousand or one lakh or five lakh. Five billion Jews, just kill. They are just like your neighbors, they are living and you see them being killed and nobody stops.

So what happened, that's the way the masses work. And Hitler had a formula, he said that, you know, he had a formula, he had a minister, Eric Hobler, he said that, tell a lie loud enough, long enough and bold enough. And people will believe it.

So the point is, people's ideas of right and wrong are very strongly shaped by others. So those who shape these are there, they are called in today's language as opinion leaders. They are the opinion leaders.

And opinion leaders, if they mislead people and give them wrong opinion, people have no place, no hope of going anywhere. So such people should actually do good. So the Yamunudas are being told by Vishnudutas, they are indirectly being reproached, they are saying that, you are meant to do good and why are you doing bad over here? Why are you punishing an unjust person? Now the Yamunudas, Vishwanath Chakrakar often in his commentary envisions the conversations going on between characters and as he describes what is happening.

So Yamunudas, you are chastising with such strong words. But what have we done wrong? This person was sinful and that's why we are punishing him. So now from here onwards they come to the specific issue.

Was he sinful or was he not sinful? So text 7, अयम्ही कृतनिर्वेशो जन्नकोट्यम्हसामपी यत्व्याजःर्विवशो नामस्वस्त्ययनंहरे So he says, अयम्ही कृतनिर्वेशो, this person, certainly कृतनिर्वेशो, he has performed the atonement जन्नकोट्यम्हसामपी, अमहसायसे, in the sense for millions of lives, for millions of lives he has performed यत्व्याजःर्विवशो. So, because he has spontaneously, vivasha can mean helpless, here it means helpless in the sense that without any conscious planning and just naturally it came out, spontaneously at that time. He has vivasha, naama swasthya ayanam hare he, swasthya ayanam, that means auspicious, swasthi is auspicious, swasthya ayanam is auspicious.

So the auspicious name of Hari he has chanted and that's why he has performed the atonement for thousands of, for sins which he may have committed in thousands of lives. From here onward they start talking about the power, the glory of the holy name. So in this narrative till now, the process, the narrative started with talking about the glory of bhakti person, kechit kevalaya bhaktya, but the focus of the narrative moves forward not just, not to the broad process of bhakti, but within the broad process of bhakti the specific power of the holy name and they say that he has countered so many sins by the, by just chanting of the holy names.

From here, Prabhupada, Chakravarti Pada and Sri Surya Swami, they all actually quote a variety of verses to substantiate this point of how they are, how the holy name is so powerful and so potent. So I am not going to all those verses right now. We will just go through this narrative and then we will discuss some principles over here.

So again, so now what exactly has he done, how has he atoned for the sins? So you say that, because he did not chant with the intention of atonement. So even if we say that, even if we are, except for argument sake, even if we accept for argument sake that chanting frees one from sins, but he has not chanted with the intention of addressing Hari or he has not chanted with the intention of the awareness at all, that I have done so many sinful activities and therefore I have to be free from these sins. So, so there he says, ete naivahi agonasya krutam syad aghanish krutam yada narayanayeti jagad chaturaksharam So chaturaksharam, these four syllables, chatur, narayanam, when he chanted, ete naivahi agonasya, when he chanted this aghanam, whatever, he was sinful, but whatever sins he had done, krutam syad aghanish krutam, he has atoned for those sins.

Now he is no longer sinful. So now, just by the chanting of the holy names, he has become free from sins. Now here, actually speaking, see every narrative has a particular mood associated with it and the mood has to be understood.

There is, there is tattva, broadly there is tattva and there is rasa. So tattva is the philosophical truth and rasa is the overall mood or mellow or the emotion that is there. So every narrative has a particular mood and that mood has to also be appreciated to understand the thrust of the narrative.

If we separate the narrative, separate the, whatever is spoken in the narrative from the mood and make that into an absolute truth without considering the context, then we will have, we can have a lot of problems. So, for example now, here we have this idea that just by committing, just chanting the holy names, one is free from all sins. Now, there is, there is a spiritual or a brahminical principle and there is a legal or administrative principle.

The two are not necessarily the same. That means, here the Yamadutas, when they are going to take, take Vishnu, take Narayana, take Ajamila away and he chants Narayana and he is rescued. Now, is it that if there is a criminal murderer and he comes and the king is about to punish him and the king, he just chants Narayana and the king will give, free him from all sins? Now, I am not saying no necessary.

It is, it is not that a spiritual principle can be immediately made into an administrative principle. For administrative purposes, other things have to be considered. So, we do not see, we see that in the Vedic times also there was capital punishment and there were various other forms of punishment which were essential because punishments are also required for administering justice.

So, we cannot translate a spiritual principle into a practical application. Now, Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Bhaktisanshu Thakur, they lived at a time when, when the Hindu culture in general and Vaishnavism in particular and Gaudiya Vaishnavism in most particular was coming under severe criticism and that criticism was coming from both sources, two sources. One was from the Britishers and also from Indians, Hindus who were reformers of Hinduism.

So, one famous British author, he, he wrote a scathing critic of especially Vaishnavism and he said, you know, according to the doctrine of Vaishnavas, you know, even if a person be a murderer, a sinner, a womanizer, whatever he may do, if he just chant the name of Hari, then he is said to be free from all sins. Now, how if, if a religion believes in such things, how can it ever have any justice? How can you rule such a country and how can there be morality in such a country? And therefore, he says, the cause of immorality in Hindu society is this Vaishnav notion that by any sin, one can, by chanting the names of Hari, one can be freed from any sins. So, now, there were people, the Hindu leaders also, yes, they were seeing a lot of immorality.

So, it's described that at that time quite often people would, they would chant the holy names. So, while they were coming back, they would go to market place and they were going to market place, in one hand they are chanting the holy names, in other hand they are carrying fish. So, you know, in one hand they have a big bag, in other hand they have fish.

They saw no mismatch. You know, even if fish eating is something, something wrong with fish eating, what is the problem? We are chanting Hare Krishna. We are chanting the name of Krishna.

And quite often they would quote verses like this from the scripture to justify what they were doing. And not only they would quote, they would quote, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has quoted these verses. Bengal was a place where Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's influence was still very strongly there.

So, now it was in such a time that Bhaktivinoda Thakur, he actually expanded on the theology of the holy name. So, the chanting of the holy names has been talked about by all the Vaishnav traditions. If you look at Bhagavad Gita, there also there is a profuse glorification of the holy name.

And he also says that, you know, just by chanting one name of Hari, one can be, one can be freed from all sins, one can become completely purified. So, that theme is talked about. But the specific theology of the holy name, theology of the holy name means, how systematically the holy name raises people through various levels of consciousness, that is developed by Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

That is developed primarily in our tradition. But if you look at the Acharyas, Rupa Goswami focused on the developing the stages of Bhakti. Vishwanath Sri Krithakur in his commentary, Madhuri Kadambani, he expanded on those stages of Bhakti.

But they did not analyze specifically the chanting of the holy names and stages in chanting of the holy names. And therein, so what Bhaktivinoda Thakur did was, he did that analysis. And he wrote a book called Harinam Chintamani.

Now Harinam Chintamani, it is, he has envisioned this as a conversation between Nityanand Prabhu and Haridas Thakur. That is a broad conversation and there is some other background and foreground also to it. Now some critical scholars argue that actually there is no record anywhere of, in any of the Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's biographical literature, Nityanand Prabhu's biographical literature of Haridas Thakur and Nityanand Prabhu ever having a conversation like this.

So they argue that this is actually Bhaktivinoda Thakur has imagined this conversation. Now the point is that in Natar Chandrika describes very clearly that actually for teaching philosophical truth, even historical characters can be depicted in non-historical settings. So I mentioned that yesterday also about Yamaraja.

Yesterday I mentioned about Yamaraja coming as a hawk. Yamaraja did not come as a hawk but the principle that is illustrated over there is that one cannot escape from death. So now irrespective of the historicity, Bhaktivinoda Thakur does not make any statement whether this book is historical or non-historical.

So the historicity of that book is not a very important issue for us because the essential tattva that is taught over there, that is well founded. So what, see the point is, sometimes people just, those who do not understand the process of revelation, revelation is not just a one-time event which happened long ago. It is an ongoing event.

So that same Jyotirnayi Mahaprabhu revealed something directly, who revealed something to Khoswami, who revealed something to Vishwanath Chakravarthy, he can reveal something to Bhaktivinoda Thakur also. So the point is, at that particular time in history, that was what was called for. So because the whole, so in the Bhagavatam, Shukdev goes, I told yesterday that every book is in a particular context.

In the case of the Bhagavatam, it is spoken, all the stories are spoken with the purpose of inspiring Parikshit Maharaj to just absorb his mind in Lord Hari. So in this setting, now there is no chance of, Parikshit Maharaj who is already a virtuous king, who is already accepted that he is going to die in seven days, he is not going to do any sinful activity and rationalize the sinful activity by saying that, oh, actually I will chant the holiness. So here, the whole crust of the Bhagavatam's narrative is on the principle of mercy.

Just see how potent the holy name is, and all the reasoning that is done, that reasoning is also meant to promote that particular point. So now, when Bhaktivinoda Thakur was present, at that time, the opposite reasoning also had to be maintained. So the point is, the holy name is so merciful, one can be freed from all sins by the chanting of the holy names.

That is perfectly fine. But if somebody is using that to routinize sinful activity, then that is wrong. So, naam navaladhyasya paak muddhi, that is, sinful activity committed on chanting of the holy name, on the strength of chanting of the holy name.

So principles like this, Bhaktivinoda Thakur took. And Bhaktivinoda Thakur is the first person who analyzes the chanting of the holy name into aparadhana, annamabhavas, and shuddhanam. Now, he also does it in Vesu Shastra, but the analysis in terms of naming certain levels and giving the characters of certain levels, that is what he does.

And the context calls for that. The context is, people are actually chanting the holy names and they are committing offenses. They are actually misrepresenting the power of the holy name and they are alienating people away from the culture of bhakti.

So, he quoted verses and Bhaktivinoda Thakur also followed his footsteps and much more vigorously. He said that chanting of the holy names is not an isolated activity, separate from the way a person is living. One has to, chanting should lead to the transformation of one's life.

And if the life is not transformed and chanting is, just chanting alone, it cannot be used to license whatever else one is doing in one's life. So, often that reasoning is what is more important. In today's ethos also, if we see, so if somebody says that there are scriptures which give many promises and those promises, we have to understand them in proper context.

So, for example, it is said that if somebody, there is some Narasimha Kavach, if one decides that there is Narasimha Kavach, then whatever disease one has, the disease will go away. Now, it is true, I am just giving a hypothetical, there are promises like that. But I am just taking this as a hypothetical thing right now, with respect to specifics.

So, all diseases will go away. So, now is it that this means that a devotee should just chant Narasimha Kavach and not take any medical treatment? Or is it that we expect the chanting of the holy names to be substituted for medical treatment? No, that is not the way our Acharyas have presented it at all. Not to speak of our Acharyas, in the tradition also, Ayurveda is a separate system of knowledge and it has been well developed.

So, the spiritual is not meant to act as a substitute for the material. The spiritual is not meant to act as a substitute for the material. See, we can say that Arjuna won the Kurukshetra war through the knowledge of the Bhagavad Gita.

That is true at one level. But actually, he fought the war and won the war through the knowledge of archery that he had learned earlier. What the Bhagavad Gita gave him was the direction, the inspiration, the motivation to use that knowledge of archery properly.

So, the spiritual is meant to be the director of the material. The spiritual is meant to be like the foundation for the proper use of the material. The spiritual is not the substitute for the material.

And this principle applies in the administration of justice also. So, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Bhaktisanshu Thakur, they very much emphasize that one has to have proper conduct. And if the conduct is not proper, then such a person should not be, just because they are chanting the holiness, you should not think that they are free from all sins and everything goes, everything is acceptable just because they are chanting the holiness.

The conduct is also very important. And so, if somebody argues that because you are chanting the holy name, so you don't have to take any medicines, this is a misunderstanding. It is not that.

Now, in an absolute sense, if a person is terminally sick or a person is sick in such a way that no medicine has worked, he says, okay, I will just depend on Krishna. But depending on Krishna does not necessarily have to mean only the spiritual. Even the material is a manifestation of Krishna's energy.

So, we can take the, we can take medicine and think it is Krishna can act through this medicine also. So, what has happened is that today every scripture or every book is spoken in a particular context. And it is now we are living it in a very different context.

So, for example, what happened in America? In America, there have been rules passed that if any religious organization has any principles that interfere with medical treatment of people, then that religious organization can be banned, it can be penalized also. There are court cases that can be made against. And there is fair reason for that.

What happened? There are some, see, when we talk about Christianity, Christianity is a very, very broad spectrum. It's like Hinduism. Hinduism, there are so many things.

So, Christianity is even bigger. So, there are mainstream versions of Christianity, which are quite intelligible, but there are some fringes of Christianity. So, there are some fringes, especially among the protestants, there are fringes where they say that, you know, if you just accept Jesus as your savior, from that time you are saved.

And once you are saved, that means Jesus has suffered for all your sins. He has accepted all your sins. All your sins are gone.

And now all your problems will go away. If you just accept faithfully Jesus as your savior. And if after you accepted Jesus as your savior, you are still having problems, that means you don't have faith in Jesus.

So, for example, this might seem ludicrous, but it's actually happened that, so there are evangelical, evangelical means preaching groups in colleges, where they canvass for Christianity. So, there are some people who canvass to some students in college, and they said, now you are saved. So, now all your problems will go away.

So, they said, you are wearing specks, you don't need to wear your specks. Because whatever eye problems you have, they are gone away. So, the students gave up specks as an act of faith.

And they said, I can't see anything. You are not able to see, that means you don't have faith. Just have faith.

This is ridiculous, you know. The eyes have certain problems, they have certain problems. You need specks for that.

It is not that. So, what happened is, they started making the problems that people face as evidence that they lack faith. This is a complete perversion of the whole principles.

And this started becoming, even a little bit of this comes up, when there are vigilant groups, atheism is also quite aggressive in the West, not just present, it is aggressive. So, they became vigilant and they said, this is what religion is doing. And they slapped rules against it.

They slapped laws that if any religious organization interferes, if its ideology interferes with the medical treatment of people, then that religious organization can lose its legal status. So, from their perspective, what they are doing is fine. And they are simply trying to protect their citizens.

So, till now, the rules like that have not come in India. But the principle is perfectly intelligible, that, you know, you cannot have religious promises taken as literally. So, if you say that, oh, this says that you chant Narasena Kavacha and all your disease goes away.

Somebody has got terminal cancer. You chant Narasena Kavacha and your disease doesn't go away. That means you are not chanting Narasena Kavacha with faith.

Just chant with faith, the disease will go away. We are not going to say like that. I am just giving an example to illustrate the point over here.

So, the scriptural promises of the glory of the holy name, of the glory of bathing in a holy place, the glory of hearing a particular pastime. So, these are promises which are given in particular context. Krishna is a person.

He has a head and he has a heart. The promises reflect Krishna's compassionate heart. And Krishna says, ये यथामां प्रपद्यनुति ताम सुथिन्गु भजाम्यू As all people surrender unto me, I reward accordingly.

That means when Krishna is saying something with his compassionate heart, at that time, we need to approach it with a repentant heart. If we approach Krishna's compassionate promise with a calculative head. Now, Krishna has just chanted one holy name and he is free from all sins.

I have chanted one holy name. Now, I can do whatever sin I want. If we start approaching this with a calculative head, Krishna says, ये थामां प्रपद्यनुति ताम सुथिन्गु भजाम्यू Krishna says, I have also approached with my calculative head.

As you have committed so many sins, what is this one chanting going to do? The point is that it is a matter of transformation of heart. It is a matter of change of attitude. So, scriptural promises or events like the Ajamas being relieved from the sins, these are primarily meant to highlight the principle of mercy.

They are meant to highlight how merciful Krishna is. Now, the exact way in which the mercy manifested in this particular pastime, that may not be exactly the same way in which mercy manifests in all times. Once we understand the principle of mercy and we try to get inspiration from that principle of mercy and apply ourselves to the process of bhakti, then we will get the reciprocation of Krishna.

So, we will see later on, Prabhupada also in his purports mentions that, the mood of Vishwanath Chaturthi Thakur also is that, that okay, if Ajamas by just chanting one name unconsciously got so much benefit, then if we chant the name and chant them consciously, we chant them not once but many times in a day, lifelong, then surely Krishna will be merciful. Surely, we will also become liberated. So, there is, there are, that means there are exceptional instances of mercy and there is a standard process for receiving mercy.

So, the exceptional examples are meant to reinforce our faith in the standard process. The exceptional examples, the exceptional promises, they are not meant to be rationalizations for abandoning the standard process and demanding that the exceptional become the standard for us. So, the exceptional cases of mercy, what are the cases of mercy, they are meant to inspire us to follow the standard process.

They are not meant to make us reason that there is no need for the standard process. I also can demand the exception like this. So, that's how we see literally also, Parikshit Maharaj hears this pastime and he doesn't say, there was no need for you to hear the Bhagavatam, just say Narayan, whenever I am going to die.

That's enough for him. He doesn't do that. So, even in the original audience of the Bhagavatam, we see that this nuanced understanding is present.

So, we can't take scriptural promises out of the context, present them as absolute truth and then demand faith in those promises as absolute truth. We have to understand that they illustrate, scriptural promises, scriptural narratives, they illustrate certain principles and those principles are what we need to understand. The principles are not what we need to internalize in our life.

The principle here is, just see how merciful Krishna is. It's not that I demand mercy of exactly the same kind. Rather, it is that Krishna is so merciful, let me devote myself to such a merciful Krishna.

So, we see this point, we see even Uddhava is remembering, he says, how merciful is Krishna that he elevated even somebody who came to kill him and made her the nurse, made her the nurse. And therefore, what does it say? Therefore, whom else can I worship? Which other lord can I worship? So, he doesn't say, oh, and I also become a demoness and I also try to poison Krishna and Krishna will deliver me also. He doesn't say that.

The point is that he is saying, therefore, how merciful Krishna is, therefore, let me devote myself to Krishna. Not that I demand the same exact kind of mercy that Uddhava, that Putana got. So, the extraordinary examples of mercy are meant to inspire us to devote ourselves to the standard process for receiving mercy.

So, any questions about this till now? What do we promise? Yeah, we promise a lot. Okay, so, sometimes in our preaching also we make promises that you just chant and you will get this benefit, that benefit. Well, I have not seen Prabhupada ever emphasizing the scriptural promises in his classes, in even his conversations or even his purpose.

You know, if you see, usually the phalashruti that comes at the end of a chapter, Prabhupada does not give any purport to it. He just leaves it as it is most of the time. If that was what Prabhupada's emphasis was, he could have given an elaborate purport to that.

So, you know, as I told you, Prabhupada's in general approach was not to get into technicalities in scripture. Prabhupada was focusing on essential principles and he did not want us to go into arbitrarily interpreting scripture and saying this is like this, this is like this, this is like this. He wanted to, was to focus on the essential message of scripture and apply that message in our life.

But so if somebody is excessively emphasizing scriptural promises, then I would say that that is, that has to be, they have to be cautioned. Now, in the scriptures when the promises come, now it's not that all the time the promises come, we have to say, no, no, this is not true. It is not that we have to say that these are simply poetic exaggerations or this is not actually true, not like that.

But we have to explain the context. Actually, without the context, you know, a lot of scriptures can be misunderstood. You know, the whole Bhagavad Gita itself, there's a famous Indian political author.

He said India's, independent India's greatest mistake was that India did not follow the Bhagavad Gita. Independent India's greatest mistake was they did not follow the Bhagavad Gita. If they had followed the Bhagavad Gita, within three days of the creation of Pakistan, India would have attacked and conquered Pakistan.

That would have been following Bhagavad Gita. Krishna told Arjuna to fight, we should also have fought. So, now, he is saying Bhagavad Gita had a fight, we should also fight.

That is, the fight in the Bhagavad Gita and the fights today are very different. And that fight involves so much peacemaking effort before and so much discussion on dharma, all that was there. So, the point is that if you don't explain context, there are so many things in scripture that can be misunderstood.

So, it is our responsibility to present scripture and present it in its proper context. We will explain how it is to be applied in today's situations. So, we talk about scriptural promises, but that should not be our highlight.

Our highlight should be the standard process of bhakti which is to be followed. And I would say that is what we normally do. We encourage people to not just chant the holy name once, we encourage them to chant regularly, we encourage them to chant diligently, attentively.

So, we do emphasize the standard process of bhakti. Does it address your question? Okay. So, we say chant Hare Krishna and you become happy.

Anathas don't go away, but after many years also anathas don't go away and we are not so happy. So, yeah, happiness is, it's a process, it's not a product. No, it's like we are on a journey towards happiness.

So, what we have to focus on is, at least in the sadhaka stage as we are growing onwards, the more we come towards sattva guna, the more the cravings decrease. And what I can say is that, and I suppose many of us can also say that, when the same problems come in our life now, the same problems that come in our life 10 years ago, our capacity to deal with them would be much better now. They are more equipped to deal with problems.

So, there are always going to be problems in this world. And it's not that just because we chant Hare Krishna, dukkha leya, we are going to become sukha leya. This world is still going to be a place of misery.

But we have got the process to firstly minimize the misery and the process to tolerate the misery and ultimately to transcend the misery. Minimize the misery because we don't do activities which make us miserable. We don't do sinful activities, we don't do activities that make us, that get us addicted, get us entangled, get us into trouble.

So, we minimize the misery. Whatever inevitable misery comes, by its philosophical knowledge, by absorption in Krishna, we can tolerate it. Ultimately, as we become purified, we will become, we will go out of this miserable material existence and that's how we transcend the misery comes in.

So, it's a, so our growth towards happiness is a process. And Southern America and one student asked me, so you are talking so much about happiness, are you happy? So, I said, I am happy that I am on the path to happiness. So, I can see that the way I was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I am much happier than what I am now.

And I can see those who are ahead of me on this path, those who have honestly tread this path and moved diligently forward, they are happier than what I am. So, I am happy that I am on the path to happiness. So, yes, initially, we may tell people that chant Hare Krishna and be happy.

And that is true. But the truth is not something which is literalistic. Happiness is not a state which is, our consciousness is not like a commodity that can be kept in a fridge.

You can say this will be this food item, it will stay good for even six months. Just keep it in the fridge or keep it in the fridge, it will stay like that. The consciousness is not like that.

It's not like a product that can be preserved in an isolated environment. So, what events happen in our life, they ricochet and they affect our consciousness. So, happiness is a process, that's why it's a process.

There are sometimes, even in our spiritual life, we will be distressed. Sometimes we will be deeply hurt. But overall, if we see the happiness-distress balance in our life, what will happen is the happiness scale will become more and more and more.

Distress will be there. Death is a great distress. Old age is a distress.

Even when you are old, it is a distress. But the absorption of Krishna is there. The connection with Krishna is there.

Because of that, the happiness will be more. And relatively speaking, we will be in a far better situation with Krishna than we would have been without Krishna. Yes, ma'am.

Something related to that. We tell about Krishna consciousness to somebody. In the beginning, we give some, let's say, blanket statements.

Chanting will give you happiness. Only after they are a little mature, we give nuances. Like, as you said, his pastime, what he loved is a contextual pastime, exceptional pastime.

This will only tell you in the first class itself. Or first lecture itself. We will first give some pastime itself.

Chanting will destroy all the memories. Chanting will destroy all the sins. That's what we usually present.

And then when that person gets some faith or starts practicing, then we start explaining all the conditions in play. Refining it more and more and more. And now he's ready also to take the final statements.

So, initially, we may make blanket statements to attract people and to help them develop faith. And later on, we may give them some nuances. So, is it a proper way? Actually, education in any form is a process of selective disclosure.

Selective disclosure. That means what? When somebody is being taught something physics or something not mathematics, then in the first sign, the KG or the first or second sign, we don't talk about three minus five, we don't talk about triple integral calculus, we don't talk about things like that. So, education always means speaking according to the level of the people, so that they can move one step earlier.

So, that is the normal process of education. That is not deceptive. Now, what makes something deceptive is that, if we deliberately hide the facts that people need to know.

So, in any system of education, we cannot tell everything to people at all times, if history is to be taught. Now, there is a board, we decide that in the history textbook, this is going to come. In the history textbook, many things will be left out.

But what can be done? They are not, that is what the, if the students are more interested in history, they will learn that afterwards. So, education means there is so much knowledge and certain things have to be learned. So, now, it is for us to make sure that we help people grow in such a way that as they learn things which they have not learned earlier, they see it as a progression, not as a contradiction.

So, if we are educating people systematically, then they will move forward, they will understand it. But especially, if somebody asks specific questions, then giving evasive answers or not giving answers or giving answers which are actually not true, that can become a serious problem. So, is 3 minus 5 possible? No, a teacher will say, well, you know, yes, at this level, you know, we understand.

But later we will understand it, which is fine. So, if it is not possible only at that level, that makes it absolute truth, then it can be, but my teacher told me like this earlier. Oh, because that you could not have understood at that time.

And the child may not be able to digest it at that time. So, now, another problem in today's world is that, with internet, people have access to everything. So, when they have access to everything, so it is, even if we try to conceal certain things from people, it is not very easy to conceal it.

People can know about things very easily. So, that is why we, it is good to give, especially if the audience is educated, the audience is thoughtful, then it is good to give a balanced understanding. But it is not wrong in principle to not tell everything right in the beginning.

So, there has to be always a process of education. And then there is disclosure according to how much people can take. In fact, telling, so I would say in today's culture, things are quite, people are quite sceptical.

Telling the ajami past time literally can actually be damaging for people's health. For people who are from a very traditional background, simple culture, they may hear, oh, the holy books of God, that's wonderful. But for other people, for a reasoning person, if you are not able to explain with proper reasoning the past times, it can seem very, very difficult to digest.

If you see in that book Second Chance also, the stress is not so much on all the promises about what the holy name can do. The stress is on the transformation of ajami. And similarly, we should also chant the holy names and we should also get transformed.

So, education has to be done in that way. There has to be systematic education where there is gradation of what we teach at different times. But it has to be done in such a way that the subsequent phases of education are seen as progression, not as contradiction.

Correct. So, people are generally looking for material benefits. And if you tell them all the phalashrutis of various bhakti limbs in Bhagavatam, then that will inspire them to develop faith and practice bhakti.

Otherwise, they will go to other places because anyway they are interested in material benefits. Yes, that is true. So, phalashrutis in the Bhagavatam can definitely be told.

And we have the example in the Bhagavatam itself. We have Diti, you know, she wanted a son. And what did Kashyap Muni do? He engaged her in a satva, payo vrata.

Pumsa vana or payo? Pumsa vana. And then by that, she wanted actually, she wanted someone who would kill Indira. But then at that time, she did the whole ritual and Indira also came and then the whole process happened.

In the process of that, by the end of it, the Maruts were born and she was purified. So, by engaging in the process of bhakti, her intention was clearly material. See, that way if we say, very, very rare are the souls who are going to come to us for spiritual purposes.

Isn't it? That, manushyanaam sahasreshu kashyagriha-sindhu. So, there are very few people actually endeavouring for spiritual perfection. Most of the people, there is Chaturvidha Vajante Maam, there is four categories of people come to Krishna.

In Kaliyuga, four categories of people who come are, the distressed, the distressed, the distressed, the distressed. So, actually, it is like, mostly it is stress and distress which makes people come to Krishna. So, we also talk in our corporate seminars or even in college seminars, we talk about how chanting is the main means to stress management.

And that is perfectly valid. So, the problem comes when this is the only thing that we talk about. If this is the starting point to get people to take to the process of bhakti, then we should have faith that the process of bhakti can purify people.

But if this is all that people hear and based on that people don't follow the process of bhakti, and they don't hear the broad philosophy. See, if this is all that we talk about and we don't talk about anything else, then we are doing a disservice. But if this is like a starting point to attract people to hear about the philosophy, to understand the message and to start practicing the process, then it's fine.

That way Prabhupada used a slogan like, stay high forever. That's completely a slogan from the drug context. So, initially, we can apply the principle.

Enak ena prapadan mana krishna nivanshi. Somehow or other get people to become attracted to Krishna. But we have to give them a proper understanding eventually.

Initially is fine, whatever we use. But eventually we have to get them towards proper understanding. Proper understanding of philosophy, proper understanding of the process.

And then it's up to them, whether they want to practice it or they want to leave it. So, the scriptural promises are a part of a whole philosophy and a process. If we isolate the promises from the philosophy and the process, then it becomes a problem.

But if you use the promises as an initial spur to get people towards the philosophy and the process, then it's perfectly fine. Does that address your question? Okay. So, are you saying that? Will those promises be fulfilled? Will those things actually turn out to be true? It will vary according to time and circumstance.

We cannot really say that. So, and if you see that way, somebody says that, you know, if you build a temple for Vishnu, then you will get wealth as much as Brahma or whatever. Now, are people really attracted by the literal promise? Do they even know how much wealth Brahma has? Are they interested? They just want to be wealthy.

So, most of the scriptural promises in that sense are not quantifiable in today's terms. The way people analyze things, the way people meditate, scriptural promises are not quantifiable. So, we don't have to really bother about the literal part.

So, when we tell these promises, people say yes. So, certainly Krishna is in their heart and Krishna has arranged their life in such a way that he may either fulfill those desires or he may give them some understanding by which they will be able to appreciate what is happening and they will move onwards. Our goal is to connect them to Krishna.

Then the promises can be initially spurred. So, whether those promises will literally get fulfilled, we can't say that. We don't, it's not that Krishna can't fulfill them.

But it's not that Krishna is obligated to fulfill every promise in every situation. See, Krishna is the well-wisher of all the humans. And as the well-wisher, he does what is best for people.

So, in some cases, the fulfillment of a particular promise through some miraculous intervention that may be the best for them. In some other cases, that may not be the best. So, Krishna will do what is best for them.

If we have a disease for which there is no cure, and then the senior devotee will tell him, let's just take Shantara Bhagavatam or the holy name. How should we see this? In general, there are times, we all go through some phases in our life, when nothing seems to help. When materially things just, one thing goes wrong, second thing goes wrong, or one disease happens and just not going, whatever it is.

So, what happens sometimes is the frustration and the lack of a material solution. And hope that maybe the next material solution will work out. That can consume us so much that we just can't practice the process of Bhakti Mukha Sattva.

So, at such times, you know, at least take Shantara Bhagavatam and try to make the consciousness more stable, try to become absorbed in this. So, this is not meant as an absolute mandate for not taking any treatment at all. The point is, there has to be a balance of the material and the spiritual.

We, ideally speaking, Yuktahar Aviharasya. Have you heard of Tushesh Chatterjee? Yoga leads to the process of Dukkha, freedom from misery, when everything else is regulated. Now, there are times in our life when our material life is not regulated.

So, at that time, what to do? When things are going wrong in material life, there are different approaches. So, we try to set the things right materially also. But sometimes things are just not getting set right.

So, at that time, just take Shantara Bhagavatam. At least stabilize yourself. Calm down.

Because right now, what is happening, the material things are also not working. And because we are consumed with the hope of material things working, so, we are not letting, we are not focusing on the spiritual and we are not able to let, spiritual is also not working because of that. So, what at that time when it is told that, okay, focus on the spiritual, that is not, that should not be taken as an absolute statement for not, don't do anything material.

But the point is, we should try to take Shantara Bhagavatam or take Shantara of the holy name and thereby stabilize our consciousness. And then, when that shelter is there, we can also explore something material. But our consciousness should not be consumed by just the frustration and the material thing not working or just the hope that the next material thing will be the solution to all my problems.

We should also move on with the process of Dukkha. And it is much, much easier said than done. When we are actually going through trouble, it is very difficult if there is no solution is apparent at that time.

But then we all go through some phases because of the past karma or whatever. Sometimes astrology can tell us that this is a bad phase that a person is going through. Now, I am not recommending astrology.

And then, it depends on time, place, circumstances also whether a person should consider astrology or not. But the point is, it is a philosophically intelligible principle that we go through phases in our life. And certain phases may be bad at that time no matter what we do, nothing seems to work.

So, at that time, we just need to tolerate. Tolerate does not mean that we do not try anything material. But we do not let ourselves get consumed by the hope that the next material thing will solve all my problems.

Sometimes, we may just have to decide, okay, I may have to live with this. So, if I have to live with this, life has to go on. Life has to go on means, I need to learn to practice Bhakti in this situation also.

Surrender can have many definitions. But one aspect of surrender simply means to do what we can with what we have now. Surrender means to do what we can with what we have now.

Now, Prabhupada, he wanted to, he wanted to preach Krishna Maharshi all over the world. He wanted to attract thousands of people. But the people who were coming to him were drunkards and drug addicts.

Prabhupada just started preaching with them. This is what I have, this is what I will use. And then he kept doing that and Krishna gave him more and more.

So, surrender can be in many different ways. So, one aspect of surrender is that, this is my condition right now, this is my bodily condition, I have to serve in this condition. So, of course, Krishna can change the bodily condition and we can also do whatever is in our situation possible to improve the bodily condition.

But we should not postpone our Bhakti for that. So, that is all. When we say take shelter of the Bhagavatam or take shelter of the holy name, that is basically meant to avoid the dejection or the depression that comes from not having any material solution.

So, that is not meant to be like a replacement for material solutions. Does that address your question? Any other questions? Shall we move ahead? How does Krishna decide when to protect, when not to protect? So, Krila was protected from Yudhishthira, but the Devatas were persecuted, even Narayani was persecuted. Yes.

How the Lord decides, you have to ask the Lord only. Broadly, what we understand is that Krishna has a plan. Krishna is the well-wisher of everyone.

In the Mahabharata, after Abhimanyu dies, at that time Yudhishthira is devastated. And he is devastated not just because his nephew has died, but because he feels I am responsible. Chakravyuh was made to have him captured and he told him Abhimanyu bore with Chakravyuh and I will, we will follow them, we will break it from within.

And then after that I will stop them. When Abhimanyu was killed, Yudhishthira was devastated. So, at that time Vyasadev comes and there is a long passage where Vyasadev consoles Yudhishthira.

And then he says, as a part of the confusion, he says the inscrutable will of the Lord is surely for the good of all living beings. If you follow his will, you will understand this in due course. So, even an exalted devotee like Yudhishthira, pure devotee, even he may not understand why such a thing happens at times.

It is just the inscrutable will of the Lord. Lord's will is inscrutable. The inscrutable will of the Lord is surely for the good of all living beings.

But if you follow that will, then you will understand it in due course. So, in Bhakti, there is the principle of free, which is very important. We cannot, we cannot know for sure how Krishna is going to be.

You know, in principle, Krishna will do things for our ultimate good. But in the immediate or the intermediate phase, what is going to happen, we don't know. Now, this not knowing, we can see that as a cause of insecurity.

Oh, I don't know what is going to happen in my life. Or we can see it as a call for adventure. Right? Yes, I don't know what is going to happen in my life.

But Krishna is God. Krishna will eventually work things out for me. So, let me do what I can.

Let me do my part. Let me try to absorb myself in Krishna. That, it's up to us to choose.

You know, in Prabhupada, so many things went wrong in his life. In fact, if you see, most of his life, in the time when he met his spiritual master, he tried so many things to preach. Most of the things were going so wrong, wrong, wrong.

But he kept doing it. And then eventually, Krishna made things work out right etc. Glory is here.

So, we, we don't know and we can't know why Krishna will react in particular ways. Well, that is where our faith comes into picture. Based on what we have heard in scripture, based on what we know about Krishna, based on whatever spiritual experiences we have had, we focus on this principle that Krishna is my valuation and eventually, he will work out things for me.

So, let me do what I can in my present situation. Let me try to serve Krishna in whatever situation I am in. There is, there are two questions.

The question why and the question how. Once we start asking the question why, why did this happen? Why did this happen like this? The why question has no answer. The why question is just a recipe for perplexity and insecurity.

But how? How can I serve in this situation? What can I do now? How should I respond to the situation? How should I act in a way that is pleasing to Guru and Krishna? So, the why question is disempowering. The how question is empowering. The why question, for many people, has no answer.

How should I act now? Yes, there are actually, whatever be the situation we are in, we can always serve. We may not be able to serve in specific forms. But we can always serve.

Specific forms of service may not be possible in specific material circumstances. But the principle of service can always be implemented. We can always hear, we can always chant, we can always remember.

Some service we can keep doing. That's why, rather than worrying about, worrying about the why Krishna responds in particular, why Krishna does certain things, or why things are happening in our life in particular, we can focus on, okay, how can I respond best to this situation? That will keep us grounded in service, and that will be actually empowering us to move onwards in our life. So, that's nine.

So, here it gives a list of people who have committed various sins like this. Thena, one who steals. Surapu, one who drinks a lot, one who is an habitual drunkard.

Mitradhrupa, one who betrays a friend. Brahmaha, one who kills a brahmana. Guruthalampada, Guruthalampada is one who does, one who, one who has sex with the Guru's wife.

Three, Rajapitragohantha, one who kills a woman, one who kills a king, one who kills a father, one who kills a cow. They are actually very grievous sins. Yelcha, Apartha, Pimavapadi.

And Apartha means whatever great sin one has committed. Sarvesanapya, Aghavatam. All these, one can become purified.

Idam Ego, Sumushkrutam. Nama Viharanam, Vishnu. By the chanting of the holy names, one can be free from all these things.

Yathas, Tadmishayamati, Tadmishayamati. So, Sridhar Swami explains Tadmishayamati means, currently it is being talked about from the point of your personal committing sin. He says, this can also refer to Vishnu.

Vishnu, his consciousness, his attention is attracted to chant the holy names. And his attention is attracted to chant the holy names, then his consciousness comes towards us. I am sure that this is my person and I have to protect him.

So, whatever happens, I will protect him. So, this is actually probably the longest purport that Vishwacharya Tagore has given in his full Bhagavatam. It's a huge, huge, multiple pages it runs into.

And he gives various levels of dialogue between the Yantra, Tadam, Vishnu, Yathas. And he gives various reasonings. Oh, but what if somebody commits sins again and again afterwards? What if that person is not intending to give up sinful activities? And all these possibilities he takes.

And basically his point here is, the holy name is so potent, it will ultimately free people from all sins. And we explained that from the point when Ajaman started chanting Narayan, first time itself. From that time itself, his sins started disappearing.

And afterwards, as he kept chanting Narayan, Narayan, Bhakti started awakening. And finally, at the moment of death when he chanted Narayan, at that time, that Bhakti blossomed. And that's how the Vishnukas came there and they intervened and they rescued him.

So, you see, that means, it is not that, so what the point he is making is that, it is not just that he chanted Narayan only at the time of death. He was chanting, because the name was Narayan, he was chanting the name Narayan constantly. So, throughout now, apart from that, another point that is made also over here is in these sections with Acharya Devya commentary that the process of Bhakti is always potent.

And that theme will come later in the text itself. The potency may or may not be manifested in the name. So, Ajaman, all the time he was chanting Narayan, Narayan, there was no transformation in his life at that time.

He still continued his sinful way of living. But that process had its, at a certain level, the effect was still there. And that effect will manifest later in a dramatic way.

So, when we chant the holy names, it's like Arunachala, when we practice the process of Bhakti, it's a gradual process of transformation. And just like when you, if we are cultivating plants or we are doing in agriculture, now every day we are watering the plants or we are irrigating them. It's not that every day I can say I put in this much water and this much the plant will grow.

We can't have a literal one-to-one correspondence between that. It is by a gradual process, it's growing. Like that, even if the process of spiritual growth by the practice of Bhakti is invisible, it may not be tangible directly.

But still, it is inexorable, it is still going on. It continues to keep going on. Inexorable means it's actually unstoppable.

It is invisible, but it is inexorable. It will keep going on no matter what happens. And that applies to our practice of Bhakti also.

Even if we sometimes feel that I am chanting for so long, no change seems to be happening. Changes are, they are subtle, they are gradual. Every day that we chant the holy names, every day that we practice Bhakti, purification is happening.

They say that the process is evolutionary, the result is revolutionary. Process is evolution, small, small, small, small things are happening. In the long run when we will see the result, complete difference.

Now if you practice Bhakti lifelong and if you have not practiced Bhakti in our life, the difference in the kind of destination that we will get, it's a revolutionary difference. So, because we don't get a revolutionary result immediately, we may feel that the process is not working. It's not like that.

Process is evolutionary. And in the long run, the result that we will get, that will be revolutionary. So, text 11.

So, Brahmavadi means, it refers to those who know Brahman, that refers to Manu and others who are like the law givers. So, whatever nishkruti means, whatever atonement, atonement happens by the processes that are being told. We will tell you what processes they have told.

They don't process, they don't, though the Vratas described by Manu and others, they don't purify as effectively as, that if somebody chants the names of Hari, or not just I will change the names of Hari, even a portion of the name of Hari. Earlier it was said Narayan, these four syllables he has chanted. But even if one chants the part of the name of Hari also, by this guna, one starts realizing them.

One starts appreciating, one starts relishing them. In that way, one moves closer towards Krishna. So, there are also stories about how Ram is there, when one chants the name of Bra, the syllable Bra, that can also purify, like Haram, the famous story is also there.

Again, these stories are meant to illustrate the potency of the holy name. They should not be made into absolute principles that have to apply at all times. So, that's what we should also see in this.

So, munamana punandhavati, again the mind goes around asatpate, asatpate is the path of self. Naikanthikantadhikrtekunishkruti, even if one does nishkruti, when one does atonement, the mind again, the consciousness again goes towards sinful activity. Tatkarmanirharam vipsatamhare, but that fruity mentality that is completely destroyed if one Hare munanavada khalsattubhavan, if one continuously chants the holy names, one starts practicing the process of bhakti diligently.

So, here it is said that, so from earlier talk on this, one chanting of the holy name, here it is said, khalsattubhavan, one permeates from the existence into chanting of the holy names. And this is the thought flow is moving forwards. Overall, there is a description of the glory of the holy names, that is there in this section.

Athainam, next text, Athainam maa panayat, Athainam maa panayat krutasheshaghanishkrutam yadasau bhagwan naama, mriyamana samagrahe. Therefore, now they are giving the conclusion, the Yamduttas had said that, actually, he is sinful and therefore we should take him away. They are saying that, no, just one chanting of the holy names can purify so much and even a partial chanting of the holy names can purify and now he has chanted so many times in his life and he is chanting addressing his son also.

Therefore, Athainam maa panayat, don't take him now. Because, krutasheshaghanishkrutam, he has actually atoned for unlimited sins, yadasau bhagwan naama, mriyamana samagrahe, because at the time of death, he is chanting the names of lord Hari. Bhagwan naam is chanted.

So, here, the stress is on, he has been chanting in his life, but especially, he has chanted mriyamana, he has chanted at the time of death also. And thus, there is tremendous effect that is going to be there. Now, again, the Yamduttas stress the point that here, but he has chanted, that's what Vishwanath Chakravarti said, that he was not intending to chant the name of Hari, simply addressing Narayan.

Then, they address that the whole name is potent, even when it is not chanted consciously. That's 14th text, well-known verse. So, asheshagharam, unlimited sins can be destroyed.

We do know that this happens. Vaikunthanaamagraham, when one chants the name, and four situations are talked about. Sanketam, sanketam means just to point out to someone.

Parihasyam, just to make fun or joke. Stobham is musically. And helanam, in derision.

In all these ways, if one chants, there is benefit. Now, most of you know about this. When you talk about somebody, all those Hare Krishnas are going there.

In that also, people chant Hare Krishna, that is beneficial. Parihasyam, all the Hare Krishnas are just cultists. Oh, they are foolish people.

They are like this thing. Even if somebody just criticizes, or people just like in a music, they fill in the sound with Hare Krishna, it is also fine. Helanamai Baba, whichever way people address the holy name, that is auspicious.

Now, again, now we have all heard this principle. In this class, my whole theme is to balance whatever we have heard. So, you know, I am one of the editors for Back to Godhead, Indian edition as well as international edition.

So, there was one devotee who wrote an article. And there was an article, not much in the article, it was just Hare Krishna Mahavatar, it was written 100 times almost, not 100 times, many, many times. And he said, Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, he just looked at the article and measured how many times the word Krishna was there.

And the name of Krishna was there a lot. He liked the article and he published it. So, why doesn't BTG do like that? So, I have quoted the Hare Krishna mantra so many times in the article.

And you are saying, oh, this reasoning is not proper, this point is not proper, you are not doing like this. So, then we responded to him. We said, okay, if that is the sole criteria for editing, then why did Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur not fill all the books that he wrote with only Hare Krishna mantra? Is it? No, he had a whole team of scholars who would write very, very scholarly articles.

And he himself worked hard to write his books. And he quoted from various shastras. So, that is one principle, that is one incident which is meant to illustrate.

Yes, the holy name chanting is important. But, and the holy name is important. But it is not that that was all that he did.

So, we cannot take one principle and absolutize it. So, yes, even if people address Hare Krishna as negatively, even if people address us negatively, while chanting the holy name, those who chant Hare Krishna, it is fine, at the beginning of their spiritual life. But that is not the only way we want them to address.

So, even if they address, that is benefit. But our goal should be that people get a proper understanding of Hare Krishna, people get a proper understanding of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra, and they come closer to Krishna. So, even if someone chants musically, that is good.

So, if somebody has some mundane song in which they insert Hare Krishna, it is okay. The people are at least hearing Hare Krishna. But if that is all the level of God consciousness that people are going to have, then that is good.

But if people have the opportunity to come higher, then we should be providing them the opportunity to come higher also. So, again, what is good and what is bad? It is often a matter of level. So, if somebody has never heard of Hare Krishna and never going to hear Hare Krishna, then hearing it in any of these ways or speaking in any of these ways is also good.

But somebody who can do much more, if that person stays stuck like that only, and doesn't do anything more, and that is undesired. If a father has two sons, and one son is a dullard, the other son is a brilliant person. So, say, on an average, the one person gets 80% marks, the other gets 40% marks, barely passing.

And today, both of them have come with their results. And both of them have got 60%. Now, the son who has got 40%, the father will say, Shabash, well done, I am proud of you.

And the other son who has got 60%, Badbash, kya kiya tu ne? So, now, both of them have got 60%. Why do you criticize the other son? You say, but your level was 80%. You come down from 80% to 60%.

So, from 40% to 60%, it is going up. Similarly, for people who are completely godless, who are never chanting the holy names, any way they chant, there is beneficial. And there is glory in that.

But those who can chant regularly, those who can chant with proper intention, those who can chant with proper understanding, for them to chant like that, that is not good. So, there is progression. And the point of this verse is, so, the whole theme of this pastime is to just depict how far the net of mercy is being cast.

How far the net of mercy is being cast, so that souls who are far, far away from Krishna, they can also come closer to Krishna. But ultimately, after a net is cast, the net has to be drawn also. Isn't it? Like a fisherman casts a net to catch fish.

But after that, the net is drawn back, so that the fish are caught and brought to the fisherman. Isn't it? So, this pastime depicts how far the net of mercy is cast. But after casting the net of mercy, then it has to be drawn.

That means, this begins people's spiritual life. But eventually, they have to become purified. And the process of Bhakti Yoga is meant to help them to become purified.

So, anyway, people chant the holy name, that is good. And if we can encourage people to chant the names in any way, that is also good. But our goal should be, yes, after they start off chanting anyway, then we have to get them to chant in the proper way.

Chant is a part of sadhana, and thus they can grow further in their spiritual life. 15th text So, even if one falls down, even if one slips, one gets beaten up or broken in the body, one gets bitten by a snake, some questions, one gets burnt with a fever or with fire, or one is attacked by sticks, attacked by weapons. Haridya Vashanina, if one helps to chant the name of Harid, Kumarnarathiyatana, the person, in the past they may have done some sinful activity, because of which they are meant to go to hell.

But while they are suffering, they chant the holy names, that means, the holy name has gone deep into their psyche. That's why at the time of danger and time of misery, they are remembering the holy names. And then they will also be sealed from misery.

Guru Namchala Gunaamchala Guru Nichala Gulichala Rayash Chittani Papanam Yatvok Tani Maharshi Bhi So, here it is said that, this word Guru Namchala Gunaamchala had come out in the previous chapter also. Talk about how, for great sins, great atonement is required. For small sins, small atonement is required.

So, it is said that, he is repeating the same statement over here. Vishwamitra is saying that, yes, that atonements, Guru Namchala Gunaamchala Rayash Chittani Papanam Yatvok Tani Maharshi Bhi Yatvok Tani, great sages know about it, and therefore, they have prescribed that for great sins, there are great atonements. For small sins, there are small atonements.

But they will go to the point of the holy name now. And what happens by this? Taisthanya Aghani Puyante Tapo Dhanavrata Divihi Na Dharmajam Tadrugyam Tad Apish Angri Sevaya So, Tapo Dhanavrata, always, Puyante Aghani, by all this, sins can be removed. But, Na Dharmajam Tadrugyam, in the heart, Adharmajam, the Adharma is born from some sinful desires, some sinful tendency, that is not removed.

But, Tad Apish Angri Sevaya, Apish Angri, the lotus feet of Lord Hari, when, the Supreme Lord, when that is Sevaya, that is served, that remains. This is, the narrative is going a full cycle now. And it's saying that, the uprooting of sinful desires happens through the chanting of the, through the practice of Bhakti.

In one sense, the Bhagavatam has a remarkable repetition that brings about resonance. That means, there are many different characters at different times, in different contexts, they are speaking. And, consistently, their message is the same.

And that repetition brings about resonance. So, we see that, at the start of this narrative, it was Shukadeva Goswami who said this, that the sinful desire cannot be removed by anything except the process of Bhakti. And now, that same message in this narrative is spoken by the characters in the narrative.

That is Vishnu's brother speaking this. So, like that, we will see that there is this repetition. Different characters in different contexts speak the same message.

And thus, the message is stressed and it becomes resonant. It becomes prominent in the consciousness. The head, edho, the head is to burn, edho is grass.

This is fire burns in a grass. Similarly, the chanting of the holy names, And the example is the names of Lord Hari. But here, the stress is made, that even if one knows or one doesn't know.

So, the objection of the Yamadutas was that he was not conscious. That he was not conscious when he was chanting. So, they are answering that point in several verses.

So, first they said that one is indicating something and chanting, that also is purifying. That was the 14th text. And then, 15th text was that actually, when sudden danger comes, and one is not again conscious at that time.

You see, when danger comes, I am conscious. How do I leave the danger? And I don't like Krishna. So, for example, if I am slipping and falling, when I chant Krishna, it may not be necessary that I am remembering Krishna.

I am just caught in the uncertainty, the insecurity of what is happening. And it comes as an instant reaction. But even that is beneficial.

So, he is giving example. And then he says that all these atonements are there. But the atonements, they don't cleanse.

But bhakti cleanses thoroughly. And bhakti cleanses thoroughly even when one knows or does not know the potency. So, now, for this action of bhakti, of the process of bhakti, even without knowing how it acts, an example is given.

So, the previous point, the example, see, the verse, the previous verse, the example was that example was for what? That bhakti burns away. Sins are removed. The next verse, the example is for So, that point is mentioned and that point will illustrate the next verse here.

ajānato apy ātma-guṇaṁ pūryān mantra-apy udārthaḥ So, yathā gadam, agadam, medicine, vīryatamam, this is a powerful medicine, works even if a person doesn't know it. By its own effort, it works. So, sometimes the mother, the child doesn't want to take a medicine, the mother secretly smuggles the medicine into someone's feet.

And the child thinks I am eating the sweet and the child takes the medicine, the child will get healed by that. ajānato apy ātma-guṇaṁ Similarly, by chanting, by chanting, even if one doesn't know the glory of chanting of the holy names, that will benefit. So, here, again, I would say that the stress of this pastime is in the principle of mercy.

So, they are countering the objection, what Ajāmila did not chant consciously, but this is the benefit to them because the holy name is a potent medicine. So, this is true. Along with that, we also have to balance.

Balance is that, see, the holy name is a medicine which will benefit even if we don't know its glories. But it will benefit if we take the medicine. And taking the medicine is not just a matter of utterance, it is a matter of remembrance.

Taking the medicine is not just a matter, taking the medicine of the holy name is not just a matter of uttering the holy name, it is a matter of remembering Krishna. And Kulaśikara Mahārāja also has an elaborate analogy. So, he gives various glories of the holy name as a medicine.

I am not going to all the glories that he talks about, but the important point is This is a medicine that is to be drunk not with the tongue, not even with the ear, it is to be drunk primarily with the mind. So, the chanting of the holy names will always purify, but the purification will be minimal if the mind is not involved. Because who is to be cured, it is not the tongue which is to be cured, it is not the ear that is to be cured.

Of course, we could say the tongue and the ear are also impure. But the primary impurity resides in the mind. So, if the mind is diseased and the mind is to be cured, the mind has to take the medicine.

And that is why attentiveness is required. And that attentiveness can be increased if we know the glories of the holy name. So, the potency of the holy name does not depend on our knowing its glories.

Our attentive reception of the holy name can depend on our knowing its glories. To give an example of this difference, the medicine when it is taken, it is going to benefit. But if the medicine is not taken or it is partially taken, the benefit will be minimum.

So, when a child is sick, the mother takes the child to the doctor. At that time, the doctor gives a prescription. But the doctor tells the prescription not to the child.

The doctor tells the prescription to the mother. And the doctor is not going to be always there with the mother, with the child or even with the mother. If the mother and child have to go back and then afterwards, it is the mother's responsibility to make sure the child takes the medicine.

If the mother thinks that giving the medicine is simply a ritual, that means, you know, every day I have to take one spoon bottle, one spoon out of this bottle and put that spoon in the mouth of the child and my job is done. But while the mother is putting the mouth, putting the spoon in the mouth, the child is shaking the head and all the medicine sprinkles up. Then, at that time, the medicine is actually not going to the child, the child will not get healed.

So, it is the mother's responsibility, she will have to put the spoon in the child's mouth, take the medicine, and put the spoon in the child's mouth and the child is made to take the medicine and then the child will get cured. So, in this metaphor, the guru is like the doctor, the medicine is like the holy name, hmm, the mother is like the intelligence and the mind is like the child. So, the guru preaches primarily to our intelligence.

The guru may embrace us, may smile at us, may feel very good. That is like the child, the doctor giving the chocolate to the child. That is nice, but that is not the real thing.

That is fine and, you know, the doctors also train that they are treating children, they also have to be sweet and nice to the children. But that sweetness or niceness, that is not the essential medicine. The essential medicine is, the essential medicine is what, what the doctor gives to the mother and the mother's responsibility is to make sure that the child takes the medicine.

So, like that the spiritual master, you know, if the spiritual master embraces us, touches our head or smile at us, talks with us, all that is very good and we can take inspiration from that. But the spiritual master's primary mercy and primary grace, primary help comes through the message that they give. So, that is what we have to hear and that is what we have to internalize and that has to appeal to us, that has to be received with our intelligence.

And just as the doctor is not always going to be with the child or the mother, like that the guru is not always there with us. So, it is for us, that means our intelligence to make sure that our childlike mind takes the medicine. And that is how, during the process of chanting, in the mind we are here and there, we will try to get it back and focus on Krishna.

Not just in chanting, in general, bhakti is, we should not reduce the process of bhakti down to chanting alone. Chanting is important, but bhakti is a whole process and during the process of bhakti, we try to fix our mind on Krishna. And use our intelligence to find out ways in which we can fix our mind on Krishna.

So, if we find that it is different devotees, today morning also I was talking about this point, that different devotees find different things as stabilizing for their minds. For some devotees, philosophy may stabilize the mind. For other devotees, service may be what is stabilizing the mind.

For other devotees, it is more the sangha of others that stabilizes the mind. You sit with devotees, talk with devotees and you feel loved and cared over there. So, we have to find out what is it that stabilizes our mind.

And we do that. Another thing is that we don't impose what we do on others. What stabilizes us and others.

Now, I may like to sit and talk with devotees and there will be other devotees also like that. But if some devotee likes to study Shastra and that's when they get their stability, we shouldn't label them, you are a gyani. And those who are likely, who get stability of their mind through Shastra study, they shouldn't label others, you are the socializers.

No, you are not a socialist Shastra. No, we have to find out what stabilizes us. And there is not just room for individuality in bhakti, there is necessity for individuality.

Because we have to individualize the process so that it works effectively for us. So, again, the point I was talking through all this is that does knowledge play a role in bhakti? So, the potency of bhakti doesn't depend on knowledge. But our exposing ourselves to the process of bhakti, that will depend on how much we are convinced about its glory and that can come from knowledge.

So, the medicine the child takes, the child is going to be healed. But if the mother herself is not convinced, this medicine is not all that important. And the child is saying, this medicine is so sour, so bitter, I don't want to take it.

Mother thinks I should be kind. Mother thinks I should love my child, isn't it? And loving my child means I should not displease the child. If the child doesn't want to take medicine, I shouldn't listen to the child.

I should not hurt my child. So, if the mother starts thinking like that and the mother says, child, you don't want to take the medicine, okay, don't take it. I don't want to take the medicine, let me take it.

Then what will happen? The mother is actually not going to benefit the child. So, like that, if our intelligence is not convinced about the process of bhakti and when the mind goes here, the mind goes there, then we say, okay, let it go. Why bother about it? It's like that only.

See, Krishna himself says, he anticipates and he tells also, ये तोनी तोनिष्चायो ती मनस्चेन चलो मस्तिरो तोस्ता तोन्यं यही तर आत्मान यही वोचने He tells, the mind will go. But wherever it goes, whenever it goes, bring it back. शन्ने शन्ने रुपर में बुध्या दुति गुधी तया आत्मसंस्तं बनाख्वत्वा अथिञ्चिदपिजिन्दे अथिञ्चिदपिजिन्दे 6.25, 26, 27, that whole series where he talks about it.

Slowly, gradually, the mind will go here and there, but bring it back. And how do you bring it back? बुध्या दुति गुधी तया with intelligence sustained by conviction, Prabhupada says. That means that knowledge is not important for the process of bhakti itself to work, but knowledge is important for us to apply ourselves to the process of bhakti by which the process will work.

So, we should not minimize knowledge. We hear Shastra. And another important point is when we talk about knowledge, scripture when it talks about gyan, often it talks about gyan in an analytical philosophy point of view, but for us when we are hearing scripture, this itself is not gyan, this is actually Shravanam Kirtanam.

So, this is in that sense, a part of bhakti itself. And as an additional effect, Shravanam Kirtanam also boosts our intelligence, increases our conviction and enables us to move closer towards Krishna. See, 6.20, श्रीषु कवाज़ तएवं सुविने विणिया धर्मं भागव तम्युपा तम्याम्य पाशान निर्मुच्च विप्रम् रुथ्योर हमुमुच्छन So, in this way, सुविने विणिया, the Vishnudas gave their nirnaya, धर्मं भागव तम्युपा, of the Uttama Dharma.

And, यम्मा पाशान निर्मुच्च, they freed him from the Yama Pasha, and in this way, he was भुत्योर हमुच्छ, not only he was saved from Yama Pasha, he was saved from भुत्यो also. So, he got, he not only did, that means, he could have died and gone somewhere else, or he could have died, he had two dangers, he was about to die and he was about to go to hell also, both are dangers. So, he was saved from the danger of going to hell, Yama Pasha, and he was saved from death also.

So, both dangers he was saved. In that sense, he got a, not only, not only, being saved from misery of death, misery of hell, but he also got a chance, second chance to improve himself in this life. 21.

So, whatever the, whatever the Apul Dasar said, it was all countered. So, they went to Yamraj, they went to his abode, यम्राज्य अथासरम्, आज चक्षु अरिन्दमा, अरिन्दमा is the address of Kalshik Maharaj, or sub-deor of enemies, अरी दम्म, one who, अरी सुद्धने कम्सित भगवाईता, like that, अरिन्दमा. So, the sub-deor of enemies, this is how, so basically, from this scene, यम्राज्य अथासरम् departed.

So, now after that, what happens? अजामिल is wonder struck. What does जामिल do? Text 22, दरशन उत्सवाल, he became jubilant to see the Vishnu Durtas. So, what had happened? All this time, he had seen the Yama Durtas, he was paralysed with fear.

What is happening? What is going to happen to me? He was just paralysed with fear. But now, once he was पाशादिन, Yama Pasha had been freed from it, his fear also went away. गतवी, परकृतिन गता, परकृतिन गता means, he regained his senses, he got back his composure, and ववन्ने शेरसा, he bowed down, and he was delighted to see me.

So, just the दरशन उत्सवाल is special, and the fact that the Vishnu Durtas had rescued him from such a great danger, that made it even more special. So, he was jubilant, उत्सवाल, he was very happy. But suddenly, something transpired.

तम् विवक्षुं अभिप्रेत्य, महा पूर्णुशे किंकरः, सहर सापश्यतस्तस्य, तत्रां तर दधिरेन अनगः। अनगः। So, Parikshit Maharaj's reference to Ascendant is that, when the Vishnu Durtas saw that, विवक्षुं अभिप्रेत्य, they understood that he wants to speak to us. So, they, महा पूर्णुशे किंकरः, महा पूर्णुशे किंकरः's servant, they are referred to as, Vishnu is referred to as महा पूर्णुशे over here, they just अनगः दधिरे, they disappeared from there. Immediately, suddenly they, right there, and suddenly, नच्छु में they disappeared.

So, here the point is, that Ajamil, at this stage was not ready to be taken to Vaikuntha. The Vishnu Durtas had not come to take him to Vaikuntha. Like they say, he had come for Dhruva Maharaj, it is described in 4th Canto, but they had not come to take him.

So, their mission was simply to save from Yamapash, this particular person, who had chanted the holy name. So, they completed the mission and immediately disappeared. So, at this point, he was not exactly qualified either to go to Vishnuloka or even talk with the Vishnu Durtas.

He saw them, but that was all that he could do. Now, it was for him, he just disappeared from there. Now, later on, we will see afterwards, he starts wondering, what was this? Was this a dream or did this really happen? So, let us see, what is his reaction? So, let us take this verse first.

Athakagni, Ajamila heard about this. The Tanam Yamakrishna, the conversation, Dharmam Bhagwatam Shuddham. So, what are they talking about? Basically, the Bhagwatam is contextualizing, that there are two conceptions of Dharma.

There is the Bhagwat Dharma and Trivedhyam Chugunashrayam. There is a Dharma, which is based on the three goals. So, it is three goals.

It is not that the Yamadutas were wrong. A sinful person should be punished. Yamadutas are also talking principles of Dharma.

So, when, this will be revealed further in the next chapter, when Yamaraj explains to the Yamadutas, what exactly transpired. So, but the Bhagwatam is giving a hint over here, that there are two conceptions of Dharma and those two conceptions of Dharma collided. One concept of Dharma is that, you do sins, you have to suffer for them.

The conception of Dharma is that, yes, one does sins, but one takes shelter of Vishnu. There is material Dharma and there is transcendental Dharma, Bhagwat Dharma. So, the collision of these two Dharmas, this conversation was about that.

And he heard it all. And what happened? So, Bhaktiman Bhagwaty Ashu. So, Ashu, he became filled with, quickly, fully, Bhaktiman.

Bhaktiman is one who endowed with Bhakti. He became imbued with Bhakti. By hearing the glory of Hari, during this conversation, he became filled with Bhakti for Hari.

Along with that, there is another emotion. Anutapu Mahanasi. Great Anutapu, great regret, great remorse came in his heart.

Smarato Ashubhamatmana. Remembering Ashubhamatmana. What terrible activities he had done himself.

So, normally, when we hear the greatness of Krishna, the greatness of Krishna has two effects on us. One is that it attracts us to him. The other effect is also, we realize our smallness.

We realize our weakness. We realize our sinfulness. If a place is dark, if everywhere there is darkness, you notice also it is dark.

But if I say now, this is light and that is dark, then I can clearly notice the contrast. So, when I come in contrast, when darkness comes in contrast with light, darkness becomes aware of how dark it is. So, like that, if we are in our own world, then we may think, okay, I am a good person.

Even if we are doing a bad thing, we don't realize how bad it is. But actually, when we come in contact with Krishna, then in contrast with Krishna's brightness, then our darkness becomes very much apparent. So, when Ajaman, he, how glorious Vishnu is, that not only increases attraction for him, attraction within him for Vishnu, but also brought the spotlight on himself in his heart and made him realize, oh, how terrible, how terrible activities he had done.

And here we will see, Ajaman now starts narrating what all sinful activities he has done. And one very significant point, actually Ajaman narrates his own sins more than what the Yamududas have narrated. You can tell me which of the sins he is narrating, which they have not spoken at that time.

Let us see now. Aho me paramam kashtam Abhudhavijitatmanah Yena viplavitam brahma Vushalyam jayatatmanah So, Aho me paramam kashtam, what terrible things I have done, what a terrible misery I have got into. Abhudhavijitatmanah Abhijitatmanah means uncontrolled sins, because of that.

Yena viplavitam brahma By which I destroyed my status of Brahma, viplavitam, got drowned away, got completely lost. Vushalyam jayatatmanah That means I just gave myself up to a prostitute and from her I begot children. So, basically he says, I lived with the prostitute, how terrible it was.

Further, so now this is the basic thing, he is being referred to throughout the Pasha and Asipati. That is very straightforward. Now, that is being mentioned repeatedly.

The first thing he says, Dhimam Vigritam Sadhir Dhimam Vigritam Sadhir Dushkrutam Kulakajjalam Dushkrutam Kulakajjalam Hitvabalam Satim Yoham Hitvabalam Satim Yoham Surapin Asatim Agam Surapin Asatim Agam So, Dhimam Vigritam Dhimam Vigritam Dhimam is condemning himself. Vigritam Sadhir The way I acted was very abominable. Dushkrutam Kulakajjalam Kulakajjalam Like we have Kulabhushan Kulabhushan is the glory of a dynasty and Kulakajjalam is the stigma of a dynasty.

Kulakajjalam So, was this mentioned by the Yamunatas? Kulakajjalam He is condemning, I have destroyed, spoiled the good name of a dynasty. Hitvabalam Satim Yoham Balam Satim So, earlier the word was Apravudham and she was not old. He says she was Balam, she was young.

So, the idea of saying she was young, one is that she was good looking, another was that, I have my responsibility to protect her but I did not do that. Satim, she was faithful, she was like a child and I did not protect her. And what did I do? Surapim Asatim Agam Instead, I went to a Surapim, one who was drunkard, and who was Asatim.

Now, this is something that his wife was unchaste, his prostitute was unchaste. That was not mentioned by the Yamunatas. It's not exactly his sinful activity, but he was aware.

Ultimately, although the prostitute started living with him, she got children with him. So, whether she really changed her way, then she became chaste wife to him. She was not chaste to him, she was unchaste woman itself.

So, Asatim Agam So, I gave up my elderly parents. Naanya Bandhu They did not have any other relative. It's interesting.

Normally, the older person, like a child is there and the parents are the Natha. But he is saying my parents were Anatha. So, yes, in the childhood, the parents are the Natha of the children.

But in the old age, the children have to become the Natha of the parents. So, here the Anatha is saying they became Anatha. And they had Naanya Bandhu, they did not have any other.

So, Natha simply means protector. So, grown up children had to be the protector of their parents. Naanya Bandhu They did not have any Anathas to protect them, no other relative.

And Tapasvi now, here Tapasvi doesn't refer to, Tapasvi was a voluntary austerity. It means they were forced to go through a lot of trouble because there was no one to protect them, no one to take care of them. Maya, Ahomaya Adhinaata I just gave them up in this very life.

Akuta Gena In this way, I was a very ungrateful wretch. Nija Vata I am a very fallen person, ungrateful and fallen. Akuta Gena and Nija Vata So, was this mentioned? This, that he abandoned his parents was not mentioned by the Amritas.

This is Ajamila himself mentioned. So, this is the nature actually of when there is deep world consciousness, it's also deep awareness of one's own faults. And that's why when say, Krishna's Guru Rajgoswami says that I am more sinful than Jagai and Madai or I am more fallen than a woman.

Now, we know that factually it's not true. But they are feeling that in comparison Krishna's greatness, how much Krishna loves me. What am I doing in return? I am doing nothing for Krishna.

Krishna is doing so much for me. Therefore, I am so fallen. So, that awareness of one's weakness, of one's sinfulness becomes highlighted when in our consciousness there is awareness of Krishna's greatness.

If by our practice of Bhakti, we are thinking, yes, Krishna is great and I am also becoming great now. Then what is happening is, then actually we are not really conscious of Krishna. The true Krishna consciousness will make us increasingly aware of our own smallness.

If we think of Krishna consciousness, we speak Krishna's greatness to enhance our greatness. I speak Krishna's greatness because people think I am so clever, I am so this, I am so that. Then, yes, as a service, we should try to speak nicely.

We should use our intelligence in Krishna's service. But if that is the prominent thing in our consciousness, I am becoming so great, the world is recognizing my greatness. Then what has happened? Then that is not really, we are not really becoming Krishna conscious.

So, Soham Yaktam Patish. Soham Yaktam Patish They say, therefore, those terrible hell, I am meant to go. I was a random of Dharma, violet of Dharma, and I was very lusty.

I am meant to undergo and Soham Yaktam Patish. I will surely fall there. So he said, although he has been saved just now, now that he has become aware of all the sins that I have done, he has done, he said, I am going to fall there.

And then he starts thinking, oh, I saw this, Yama Buddha is coming, Krishna Buddha is coming. So what was all that? So now he asked this question. Based on my sins, I was supposed to go to the Yama Buddha, but then Yama Buddha had come and then Krishna Buddha came.

What was it that happened? So he starts pondering it. Was this a dream? Or did I really see these people? If it is real, if they were really there, so astonishing people who were there, if they were really here, then where have they gone? They had the past with them, but now they just disappeared. Where have they gone? So he is trying to figure out what is all this? Athatekvagatahasiddhash chatvarashcharudarshanah yamuchayanniyamanam baddhvapashyadhobhuaham So, athatekvagatahasiddhash, so he said, yes, I saw these people.

There are some special people over there, chatvarashcharudarshanah, there are four people. So it is now, I do not think when the Vishnudas came, it was mentioned, was it mentioned? Four Vishnudas came? Was it mentioned? Chaturbhuja was mentioned. I am not sure whether, I do not remember at least.

I do not think Chatur was mentioned over there. So here he said, I saw these four people. These four people had come and charudarshanah, they were very pleasing to see.

Where have they gone? yamuchayanniyamanam They released me from the rogues. baddhvapashyadhobhuaham The path where I was, I was adho, adho means down, to hell I was supposed to go. But I was saved from this.

What is all this? And in this way, he comes to a, comes to a conclusion. What is the conclusion? And how that conclusion transformed into a resolution. A resolution to practice bhakti determinantly.

That we will discuss in our class tomorrow. So, any other questions? Two questions. I would like to take one question which Madan Mohan Devgu had yesterday.

He said, I had asked you the question privately, but I thought I can answer it publicly. So yesterday I mentioned that in our last question answer that, that it is for the husband and wife to adjust and they have to arrive at a proper. So, he was asking that there is, when the man and woman unite, there are children that are born.

And then to avoid that people use contraception. And then that is what practically people do. So, there are very serious people who do not do all this.

But there are many people who do this. Even in the devotee community, they may be doing it. So, what should we speak in these things? Ideally speaking, we do not have to get involved in these things.

It is for congregation devotees, congregation counsellors to talk all these things. But sometimes we are in a situation where people ask us questions. And we should be aware of what is, the principle is that there are brahmacharyas, there is a renounced order, there is a householder order.

And the renounced order should not interfere too much in the householder orders of this. That is none of our business. But in principle, we have to see what is, there are principles and there are practical applications.

So, now within when a man and a woman unite, there is not that at all times when union takes place, there is conception. So, there is a concept which Prabhupada did not talk about, but which is there in the Manusmriti and other places. It's called natural family planning.

What is a natural family planning? Natural family planning means that there is in a monthly cycle of a woman, there is a particular week or a particular period when the man and woman unite, at that time fertility happens. At that time the union happens, then the fertilization takes place and the child is born. So, if the man and woman unite at other times, apart from that, at that time they can unite and still no conception takes place.

So, now this idea of not using contraception, that is there in Christianity, that is there in Islam, that is there in all religions it is there. At least the traditional forms of those religions. So, they talk extensively about natural family planning.

That means they have the rhythm method. Basically, that means if the man and woman unite without, if they don't want to have children, they unite at a time when the conception is unlikely. Then they can unite and there can be, there is no use of, there is no need to use contraception, but conception doesn't happen.

That is what many traditional religionists recommend. So, it's not that there is, there are only two options, conception and contraception. Conception or contraception.

Natural family planning is something which is in between. And beyond that, the important thing is that largely sex is a private matter of people. And as brahmacharis, it's not for us to get involved in it.

So, if it is that, see in the past, now you say, people don't use contraception. I am not saying that people should use contraception. We have to recognize the practical limitations that are there.

In the past, infant mortality was very high. Women would beget children and children would die. Because of whatever reasons.

Maybe the medical treatment was not all that good. The delivery was very problematic. Even we have in Chachi Mata also, nine of her children died.

So, infant mortality in the past was very high for whatever reasons. Today, the infant mortality is not all that high. So, it's much much down.

So, the children that are born, those children, they are going to live. In the past, people would beget many children because it was understood that all the children that you are going to beget, they are not going to live. In the past also, whenever a king would be there, they would say the king has to beget an heir and a spare.

An heir is a person who is going to become the next king. But if the heir is somehow to beget, you have to have a spare. So, that is standard understanding.

You know, a king is… In fact, there is that pastime of Yamanacharya and that scholar Kolahal. There he says, now prove that the queen is a barren woman. Your mother is a barren woman.

How can you prove that your mother is… You are already a child. So, then he says that if a woman has only one child, she is considered a barren woman. So, that is the idea.

Now, why is it like that? Because if you have only one child, there is no security that the child will live. That's why have a heir and a spare. So, in the past, infant mortality was very high.

So, people could have many children and they would understand most children will not live. But now, because infant mortality is not high, people have children. Most of the children are going to live and they have to be maintained and they have to be grown.

So, practically, things are very complicated. And it's just best for us to not get involved in this. So, yes, Prabhupada said that the contraception should not be used.

But there are degrees within that. Degrees means that we cannot extrapolate one principle and absolutize that principle. So, it is said that a soul has come in and a soul is going to get a body.

And then when the contraception is used, the soul will not get a body. Now, the skeptics can take this argument further. And extremely, you know, that means if somebody becomes a brahmachari, and the brahmachari does not unite with a woman who is ready to get a child, then the brahmachari by not uniting is depriving the soul of a body.

If you take this argument further, it can be stretched anywhere. So, the point is that we don't have to take arguments and make them into absolute principles. My point is simply that this is something which we don't have to get involved in.

And congregation counsellors, what they will tell, that is up to them. They will be trained by the spiritual master, by the sanyasis, gurus. And this sort of micromanagement of people's life is impossible in Kali Yuga.

And actually, it was not done in the past also. So, we can't get involved in these things. Our focus should simply be on giving principles, and people will practice those principles according to their level.

And they will move onwards in their life. So, it is not that we have to judge people or label people or condemn people. Whatever level they are practicing, they are encouraged to move onwards from where they are towards the practice of bhakti, towards higher levels of bhakti.

And if we are very judgmental, if we are very, if we are very condemning, then what happens is, people go away from the practice of bhakti. I was told that Dhiranjan Maharaj has written in one of his books, this is a compilation of his letters, that one devotee came and told him, Maharaj, I want to resign from bhakti. I don't want to practice bhakti anymore.

He says, you know, the Chinese extreme down is too much. I cannot do that. And then, Maharaj told him, if you can't chant 16 rounds, at least chant something.

Don't give up the practice of bhakti. He chanted 4 rounds, he chanted 2 rounds. So, chant something.

Now, it's an initiated devotee. He said, I want to stop chanting. So, now, he's told him, don't chant 4 rounds.

Now, somebody can make this a big issue. Obviously, the spiritual master is lowering the standards, and he's saying that chant 4 rounds. But the point is, okay, if you can't chant 16 rounds, don't go away from the association of devotees.

Suppose somebody, for some reason, is not chanting 16 rounds. And as soon as that person comes to the temple, everybody says, you know, he stopped chanting 16 rounds. You know, he stopped chanting 16 rounds.

You know, he stopped chanting 16 rounds. Now, if everybody starts labeling and condemning him like that, condemning them like that, then they will think, better not come here. So, now, which is, if somebody has taken initiation vow, they should never stop chanting.

That's best. But somehow, somebody has lost inspiration, and has stopped chanting. Then what to do? Should they also go away from the association of devotees? Should the association of devotees be molded in such a way that people feel that if I cannot follow this, then I have to just leave? No, it should not be like that.

No, I had gone to one temple. There, one devotee has… Now, I'm just bringing this point more home, which will hit in a hard way to us brahmacharis, that I had gone to this temple, and there was this devotee who had been a brahmachari for 10 years. And then, he said, after 10 years, no problems.

He did not have any… And he did anything, etc. He just felt that I cannot come and continue as a brahmachari. And he decided to change his ashram.

And he said, it was as if, you know, the day I changed from saffron to white, you know, everybody started looking at me and nudging each other and talking with me. I felt like in one day, I had changed from a brahmana to a chuta. He said, I just couldn't stay in that temple.

He says, I left the brahmachari ashram, and from now, it's almost 7-8 years. He says, I have not even gone back to the temple community. Gone back to the temple, gone back to the community.

He's gone to some other temple, and I met him at that temple. And he says, I'm just practicing bhakti there. So, now, is this what we want for brahmacharis? If somebody, some brahmachari doesn't want to be… is not able to be a brahmachari afterwards, still, you know, the sense of community is that, still, you are welcome.

Still, you are part of a bigger community. And they should also be integrated. So, just like they cannot follow this standard, but that doesn't mean that they have to be looked down or condemned.

They're still meant to be included. So, like that, we will end the practice of bhakti, even within the, in grahastha life. Now, if somebody is not able to follow a particular standard, see, we are not here sanctioning or licensing them to do whatever they want.

We are simply saying that, when we talk with them, we should not make them feel that if they are not able to follow this, they are unwelcome over here. They will be condemned over here. They will be rejected over here.

Whatever people are doing, they should be encouraged to practice bhakti and continue on. Because without practicing bhakti, they are never going to rise to a higher standard. So, whatever standard they can follow, follow that and move onwards towards, move onwards by practicing bhakti.

And gradually, they'll come to a higher standard. So, in principle, we do not get involved in these things. In practice, if we have to get involved, we do not have to become any judgment.

You can tell them, yes, this is what is the standard and this is what is at various levels can be done and we leave it at that. So, if we get too much involved in this, then that creates a lot of friction. And not only friction, it is not suitable for the renounced order to get into the technicalities of this.

But broadly, we should know and we should not come off as fanatical. People should be welcome to practice bhakti at whatever level they practice. But we should see, when we are acknowledging the reality that people may not be at the standards.

That does not mean we are condoning the reality or approving the reality. It just means we are acknowledging this is how things are. And we leave it at that.

Does it address the issue? It is not practical. In some sense, reality or that something is theoretical. So, that conflict in my mind.

If there are any cases, I have to do it strictly in a proper way. So, obviously, that is… So, what are the remaining principles, Prasanna? Basically, broadly speaking, no illicit sex, no sex outside marriage. That is all.

You do not have to get into further details. And like that, every principle, you can go deeper. And you can go at various levels.

But it is like no meat eating. Okay, this is a good example with the article on the other words also in this example. See, that is like in food.

In the eating of food, there are various levels of regulation. Best standard is that the food is cooked by devotees, offered properly to the deities and then served by devotees and honoured in the devotional frame of mind. That is the… not just cooked by devotees, you could also have harvested by devotees.

That is a very good standard. Now, from this point onwards, if you consider this as a very high standard, from this point onwards, till the point of eating meat, all of them are ascending and all of them are acceptable standards of food. And sometimes some people, even as brahmacharis also, if we are travelling and there is no food available, sometimes we may take some food from a shop and we may eat it.

We may go to some Jain mess and take some food without onion, garlic or whatever. Now, some of that is… that was not cooked by devotees. We are not even having details to offer it.

We might just offer in the mind or we might offer some picture and then we may take the food. That is not a good standard. That is acceptable.

So, now if somebody says, oh, there is no food available, so I ate meat. That is a serious issue. That is a very serious issue.

So, no meat eating is like a very strong no, no, no. From the standard of ideal prasadam down to various ways in which food offered to Krishna, all of them are acceptable. But this meat eating is a very strong no, no, no.

Now, for all these also, we can say there is no, no, no. No, that means for, okay, should somebody eat biscuits, should somebody eat chocolates? No, that is still devotees will not eat. But it is not that somebody is eating biscuits.

That was a very serious, simple activity for which we have to court-martial them. Isn't it? No, it is not like that. It is not an issue to go on a campaign over.

So, just as the principle of no, of prasad, of eating or the activity of eating, there is a whole range of standards from no meat eating onwards, upwards, till pure prasadam. So, like that, from the standard of no sex outside marriage to sex only for procreation, it is all a continuum. And different people will be at different levels in this continuum.

And yes, we all would like to take prasadam which is very pure. So, like that, everybody should be aspiring for the standard of sex only for procreation. But, just as it is not that just because one cannot be at this level, that does not mean everything else is the same.

Within Vyajasthan, because one cannot eat pure prasadam, that does not mean that, okay, I'll eat meat, I'll eat eggs, I'll eat fish or whatever. No, there is a big difference between that and food that is offerable to Krishna. So, like that, from the standard of sex only for procreation to sex outside marriage, there is a huge difference.

So, from sex within marriage to sex for procreation, it is all a continuum. And that all is like food that is offered at various levels. So, that way, we understand that these are ranges.

And the absolute no meat is a firm no. So, like that, outside sex, sex outside marriage is very strong. We could say very strong, just like the meat thing, but from there, there are various standards.

Does that answer your question? So, I think we are quite over time now. Other questions that are there, we may take tomorrow. Thank you very much.