Brothers in Ramayana 3 – Three Brothers Conflict and Choice

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

I'm audible to everyone. Thank you very much for coming today on a weekday. Namaste Saraswati Devi I think the volume is going up and down.

I'm audible to everyone. I'm audible to everyone. Can you hear me without it? You're able to hear me? No.

Otherwise I can use this. We can just move ahead. Is that okay? Hare Ram, Hare Ram, Ram Ram, Hare Hare.

I understand. It's not on our control. Why is this not working? The mic seems to like you and dislike me.

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare. Hare Ram, Hare Ram, Ram Ram, Hare Hare. Good.

Fixed it. So, today we are going to discuss about the Ramayana. And we'll be discussing about how misunderstandings occur and how they can be avoided.

Am I audible to everyone? Still breaking? Okay. So, broadly we are discussing the Ramayana. I think it is going up and down.

Isn't it? Are you able to hear me or no? It's going up and down. Okay. Is this working steadily? Well, it won't be that loud.

Okay. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. Okay.

Okay, let me start off. No, it's going up and down. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna.

If I bring this very close. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare. Hare Ram, Hare Ram, Ram Ram, Hare Hare.

There are always two elements that work together. What are those elements? Choice and chance. So, when some situation comes upon us, to what extent? To what extent was it due to choice? And to what extent is it due to chance? Now, this happening is chance, but our continuing with it is choice.

Let's see if it works. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. Yeah, it's interesting.

Can you hear me now? Okay. So, it's definitely a product of choice and chance. And especially this matters when some things go wrong.

Because when things go wrong, our human tendency is that if the mistake has happened from my side, then I say it is because of chance. So, it's my, then it is chance. Somebody else's, it is choice.

This is how things keep going downwards and getting degraded. You want to prefer that? No, no, I am just keeping it aside. Okay.

So, yesterday I started by talking about how Vali and Sugrihu and we are comparing the situation with, the situation between Ram and Lakshman after the abduction of Sita. So, Vali and Sugrihu, they had a misunderstanding and that misunderstanding was largely a product of chance. Sugrihu thought that Vali had died.

And then Vali thought that Sugrihu had conspired against him to seize the kingdom from him. Now, both these happened because of circumstances. So, broadly when I am using the word chance, I am using it to refer to all the factors that are beyond our choice.

So, when this happened, at that time things started going down especially because Vali held on to his suspicions. Not just his suspicions, his conviction that Sugrihu was guilty. So, we discussed how that was a matter of choice.

So, the situation that comes upon us, that may be a matter of chance. Now, that situation may also create a first impression. And that first impression may be wrong at times.

But that first impression is also an understandable product of, we could say, chance. So, when we see particular situations, say, I may have told this incident to some people, some of you earlier. Once I was in Radha Gopinath temple in Mumbai and I had a class and it was a festival program.

So, after the class I went down to the kitchen to take prasad. And by that time most of the prasad was over because a long question-answer session. Not just in the class but after the class people came and talked.

And there had been a sweet over there which we had already got over. So, I was a bit annoyed. And then I saw there was another senior devotee sitting on the opposite side.

And that devotee had had sweet in the plate and that sweet had got over. And then that devotee was asking, do you have more sweet? Do you have more sweet? And the servers were telling, no, unfortunately the sweet is over. And one server said, no, you are asking another server, you are asking third server.

Now, because he was a very senior person, everybody was running around. And I was thinking, you know, you already had one helping. Why are you making such a, you won't cry about it.

And then finally, like often the servers, in case food gets over in future, they make their own plates and sometimes they keep it. So, one of the servers from their plate, he brought the sweet he was about to serve. And I was thinking, this is utterly shameless.

You had one helping and you are taking somebody else's helping. And then at that time that devotee said, no, I already got it. He hadn't got sweet and he pointed to me.

Give it to him. So, he had been doing all this for my sake. But I was thinking that if that last part of the incident had not happened, where somebody actually brought that sweet and then he said it's for me.

I would have gone on thinking what a attach or what a shameless, what a sense gratifying kind of person this is. So, we could say that sometimes our circumstances come by chance. The first impression that comes from those situations can also be by chance.

And the first impression may paint that person in negative light. But after that, when we hold on to that first impression and utterly refuse to revise it, that is not a matter of chance. That is a matter of choice.

That's how we discussed that yesterday. We considered a wali. See, a first impression comes from that point of view.

And wali was dismissive of others' perception. He said, he just wants to…what did he start doing? He started saying that what I am doing is right. That Sugriv is such a terrible person that I should kill him.

And I kill him in cold blood and then he cannot be killed and I will punish him by taking his wife for myself. This is where when somebody becomes self-righteous. Self-righteous means that my cause is so good that for the sake of this cause, whatever I do is good.

So, that's where things start going in a very dark direction. So, now this is how this conflict…the two people are friends. Two brothers are friends.

Okay. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. Should we keep it vertically? Okay, pronounce it vertically.

It's working. It's working? Okay. I think staying in India means we have to expand our definition of what working means.

So, it seems in the last year, Jugaad was included in the Cambridge Dictionary. Or at least one of the top dictionaries it was included. So, now at this point, today we discussed about, so I contrasted this with the incident where Ram and Lakshman, there is also difference of opinion, Lakshman said this is not an actual deer, this is a demon in the guise of a deer.

Sita said no, it's a simple deer and Lord Ram went along with him. And then it turned out it was a demon. So, at that time Lakshman went away and then there was, Lakshman went away because Sita spoke hurtfully to him.

And then Sita was abducted. At that time when Ram and Lakshman met, a terrible thing had happened. We could say it was chance, maybe some small mistake.

But what could have been made worse was they blaming each other. Ram could have blamed Lakshman, why did you leave Sita? You should not have taken her words so seriously. She was caught in the grip of emotion.

You should have stayed calm. Lakshman could have blamed Ram. I told you it's not a deer, it's a demon, you didn't listen to me.

That's why you went chasing after it. So, now this is where that choice did not happen. And because that choice did not happen, things did not become worse.

It was a very bad thing that happened, Sita's abduction. But it did not become worse. So, generally speaking, today I will be moving forward to, we will move forward this past time a little later.

But today we will move towards the theme of Vibhishan, Ravan and Kumbhakarna. And there also we will talk a matter of choice and chance. And we will explore how things worked out.

So, now in philosophy there is always a question do we really have the power to choose? Do we really have free will at all? Now, there are lots of people who try to argue that we don't have free will. And they can come both from the traditional side and the modern side. So, from the modern side there is a body which says that we are all products of our brains.

And our brain is wired. So, everything that we do is just a product of the neurochemistry of our brain. And therefore, we don't have any free will.

In the traditional perspective that we all have some conditionings. We all are bound by our conditionings. And therefore, we don't have any free will.

So, there are proponents of this from both sides. And there is some truth to it. But the thing is that often error in judgment occurs when some truth is made into the complete truth.

So, our conditionings do shape our choices. But how much? Our brain chemistry does affect us. So, for example, if somebody has drunk alcohol and then they are driving a car.

And somebody suddenly comes across the road. One of the things that alcohol does is it slows down one's impulses. Now, so if somebody was drinking alcohol and driving and they couldn't hit the brakes fast enough and they hit someone.

Then can we say that alcohol is to blame? Well, you can say yes, alcohol is the immediate cause. But the person drank alcohol and drove, that is their fault. They are responsible for that.

So, the point is that physical agents can affect a person's choices. So, many times in casinos where there is gambling, there is also drinking. Now, at least we have devotees in Las Vegas also.

And everywhere we have devotees. I was talking with somebody in Las Vegas. They say that they have rules that if a particular client has drunk beyond a particular quantity then they are not allowed to gamble.

That now you are not sober enough to decide whether you want to gamble. But even before whether you are sober is open to question. But at least at that point, so the point is that chemically, what can happen to external chemicals between taking drugs or alcohol or internally the brain's neurochemistry.

That can affect our choices. But the difference between affecting our choices and controlling or determining our choices. So, what does this mean? Let's consider this from the perspective of Ravana.

Normally, we say that good people do good things. There are good people who do good things. And there are bad people who do bad things.

That is how things are. Krishna also talks about there are two kinds of people in the world. He says, Dvabhuta Sargao Lokesmin, Daiva Asura Evacham.

So, he says there are two kinds of people. Some people are wise and some are otherwise. So, there are divine and demoniac people.

So, normally we will say good people do good things, bad people do bad things. But we have an example of good people doing bad thing was Vali. And we discussed how in the situations Vali made a bad choice and he ended up doing a very bad thing.

Now we discussed how Ram and Lakshman, they made good choices. Now we could say Vibhishan, is he really a bad person? Well, he was in a bad group of people. He is not a bad person.

But let's consider Ravana. They are in two bottles. The quantity is still in their controls.

Often they are in a range. So, this range is determined by factors beyond our control. That we can call as chance.

So, somebody has a conditioning of alcoholism from behind. So, for them to say no to alcohol is going to be very difficult. That option might not be there on their mind's menu at all.

But still they can make the best among the range of choices or they can make the worst among the range of choices. So, best could be, I have this craving, I can't. I will just take one drink and I will move out of that place.

Or they can say, I will not just take one drink, I will take as many drinks as I can. I will take ten drinks and then I will insist on driving the car after that. That would be the worst choice.

So, we always have a range within which we choose. And the exact range may come by, we could say chance. But within the range what we do is up to us.

So, we were going to talk today from Ravana and Vibhishan's perspective. We won't go into Kumbhakarna so much. Because Kumbhakarna really did not exercise that much choice, although he could have.

So, what happened, broadly speaking, when Sita was abducted? So, in most narratives of the Ramayana, Vibhishan comes into the picture much later. There is no evidence that Ravana consulted Vibhishan before going about to abduct Sita. In fact, he did not consult anyone and he just went along, he got recruited Maricha.

And when he came back with Sita, what is described is that when Hanuman goes there. This is a much longer incident, we are moving there right now. When Hanuman came to Lanka, there is the first time Vibhishan comes into the picture.

And then Vibhishan tries to get Ravana to not punish Hanuman too badly. He wants to kill Hanuman and he says, no, he is a messenger, he should not be killed. That's the first entry of Vibhishan over there.

Now, after that what happens? Hanuman burns all of Lanka. So, in English there is a word called trailblazing. Like somebody does something extraordinary.

Like somebody has a trailblazing adventure. So, Arjuna has a tailblazing adventure. So, tail is his tail.

So, the tailblazing adventure he has. He burns everything. Almost half of Lanka is burned and he departs.

And at that time Vibhishan now comes forward. Hanuman warns that if you do not return Sita, then thousands and thousands of monkeys like me, stronger than me will come. And they will destroy the entire Lanka.

Hanuman, his plan is to intimidate. To intimidate Ravana or at least intimidate those supporting Ravana. And that way try to prevent the war.

To minimize the chances of war. To some extent it succeeds but Ravana does not listen. So, Vibhishan tries to persuade Ravana.

He tries to get him to cease sense. And after Hanuman has departed, the fires are put out, the reconstruction work starts. At that time Ravana calls an emergency council of war.

He says that our island Lanka which was considered impenetrable has been not only penetrated but devastated by a mere monkey. This is a crisis unlike what we have ever faced in our life till now. So, generally water is considered to be one of the safest protections.

When Krishna was repeatedly attacked in Mathura, he fought off Jarasandh and other aggressors. But eventually he decided that he would relocate all the Mathura Vasis to Dwarka. And what we have Dwarka right now, that is actually an extension of the original Dwarka.

The original Dwarka was an island. It was protected by water. According to some accounts it was in water or above water.

But it's protected. And that's why there is not a single demon who comes to attack Dwarka. It's water makes it impenetrable.

Now of course there is only one demon. His name is Shalva. He comes because he with Lord Shiva's blessings gets a flying machine, an airplane which he attacks.

So, one of the reasons America has risen to a superpower status is that it's surrounded by two large water bodies. One reason why in Europe, UK rose to a high level of power was because Europe was constantly fighting. Only a few miles of water separated UK from Europe.

But those few miles made a huge difference. And UK rose to superpower status. But by the end of the First World War and especially the Second World War, as soon as the airplanes came, Germany attacked UK and then UK basically lost its superpower status.

So, America is still impenetrable. Of course, there is immigration and that's the fear coming from the south or the north. But the thing is that water is considered to be one of the most impenetrable defenses.

In the past when kings would have forts, they would have tried to have moats around it. Even a small body of water can make it difficult or to speak of a huge body of water. So, this itself was a crisis situation that their kingdom had been penetrated.

And Ravan also recognized this. Now when he called the emergency council, he said that foolish is the king who does his own will without considering the advice of his ministers. Wise is the king who takes inputs of his advisors and chooses a good course of action.

So, I await your advice. So, now here he speaks wisdom. But what happens is some people like to sound wise not act wise.

So, for him he speaks this wisdom but it's like some team lead he says, I encourage all of you to give your suggestions unhesitatingly. Just make sure that your suggestions agree with me. So, now everybody there just they know that Ravan likes to fight.

Ravan is belligerent person and Ravan has abducted Sita. Her abduction is the cause of this whole devastation. So, one after other various generals start saying that actually there is no danger for us.

This monkey caught us by surprise because nobody had attacked so we were not prepared. But now we will be prepared and if he or his associates come again, it is they who will be in for a nasty surprise. Other general said that actually this is an insult to us.

So, rather than waiting for them to attack, we should go and attack them. We should pursue them, pursue Hanuman, finance supporting forces and attack them and destroy them. If we go with full forces, we will be able to destroy them.

So, basically nobody spoke against the idea of confronting. The only dispute was about how to confront. Whether to wait for them to attack or another one said that let us send spies to follow Hanuman and we will find out where Ram is and then we will attack him by surprise and we will destroy him.

Ok, can you hear me till now? So, therefore what happened is that now there is only one dissenting voice over there. Actually there were two dissenting voices. One was Vibhishan, the other was Kumbhakarna.

Now interestingly, Kumbhakarna happened to be awake on that particular day. So, he said that, oh brother, can you hear me without it? If it is going to be done quickly, better not experiment. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

So, Kumbhakarna said that, oh brother, you are consulting us now but you didn't consult us before you abducted Sita. That was a very rash act. But you are fortunate to have a brother like me.

I will deal with this rashness. Let Ram and his army come and I will destroy all of them for you. Hare Krishna.

So, now Kumbhakarna, he was a younger brother. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Now, Kumbhakarna was a younger brother.

Now, he accepted that Ravana is the elder brother, Ravana is the king. But still he also had that desire, I want to show my prowess. So, he said, you got into trouble, I will get you out of trouble.

So, Ravana did not like being chided in public. But he said, he knew he needed Kumbhakarna's voice, he thanked him for his support. And then Vibhishan spoke.

He said, oh brother, Vibhishan gave three reasons. He said that it is not that Hanuman caught us by surprise. It is that we send soldier after soldier, army after army into the garden, into the Ashok Vatika and he destroyed all of them.

We had time. It was only Indrajith's Brahmastra that was able to arrest him. And he got free even of that.

So, you had to use your best warrior and the best weapon of your best warrior to stop him. So, don't underestimate their power. And second he said is, oh brother, you do not have protection from humans.

Now, Hanuman while departing added one more twist. He said, Ravana, you don't have protection from humans or monkeys also. I can also kill you.

So, now he said that you do not have protection from humans. And therefore, this could be disastrous for you. And he said, even if we are prepared, he said that I have heard that these vanaras are not ordinary vanaras.

They are all devatas descended in the body of vanaras. And Ram himself is Vishnu descended over him. He said, these are not ordinary forces that you will have to face.

He said, you already have a beautiful queen Mandodari. He said, return Sita and live peacefully. Now, to his credit, Ravana paused.

He became a bit tensed. And he dismissed, adjourned the assembly. He said, we will continue tomorrow morning.

So, he thought about it. He said, I will think about it. Now, Vibhishan felt some hope.

Maybe he would listen to me. Now, the next morning they were going to meet again in the assembly. But before that, Vibhishan went to the palace of Ravana to meet him privately.

And when he entered in the palace, he looked at Ravana and Ravana's face had again become very cold and hard. That contemplativeness was gone. That whole night, Ravana had been thinking about Sita, craving for her, tossing about restlessly.

And that desire, that lust had blinded him. See, for wise people, sorry, for attached people, sometimes when they hear wisdom, that wisdom makes sense. It's interesting in the Mahabharata war also, on the fourth day of the war, that Duryodhana faces a severe setback.

Duryodhana is first defeated and left wounded and unconscious by Bhima. He is rescued by elephant division. But Bhima tears him to destroy the entire elephant division.

By the time Duryodhana wakes up, Bhima's son, Dronacharya is there. And they fight. And on that day, even Bhima's son defeats Duryodhana.

He is completely humiliated. And that day when he goes back to the tent, he asks Bhishma, how was it that I have more senior warriors, I have greater forces and yet how is it that I am being defeated? So, at that time, Bhishma replies, Oh Prince, I have made myself hoarse, telling you again and again that there was not, there is not and there will not ever be an army that can win when Krishna is on the opposite side. Then this is the time, because he has been defeated, what happens? He is a little surprised.

So, Duryodhana asks, who is Krishna? Who is Krishna? And then he hears, Bhishma has been waiting for this opportunity. Bhishma speaks the glories of Krishna, right from his childhood pastimes, how he killed Putana, how he destroyed Kamsa. And he becomes sober, he becomes contemplative.

Exactly the same thing that happens with Ravana. But the next morning when he wakes up, again the craving for the kingdom, the envy for the Pandavas, all that comes back again. So, you know, wisdom always acts.

Wisdom is like illumination. It is always illuminating. When we have certain attachments, we have certain conceptions, when somebody speaks some wisdom, it is illuminating.

But that illuminating can act as light or it can act as lightning. So, lightning means it stays for a very short while. So, for both Duryodhana and for Ravana, it was like lightning.

There was a bit of contemplative movement, but it went away. So, now we could say that, we are focusing on Ravana over here. So, he did have the choice.

Should I fight? Should I hold on to Sita? Should I not hold on to Sita? So, that choice he did have. And he did think about it. So, now my question was, do we really have free will? So, in this case what happened, his conditioning, his lust, his craving, that overshadowed whatever wisdom he had.

Now, could he have avoided that? Well, yes. You know, if he had not dwelt on Sita so much, we could say, okay, now he doesn't have a sense of moral boundary that this is somebody else's wife. But at least, okay, this is, if you can't be deterred by morality, then at least you can be deterred by mortality.

Isn't it? So, morality is, this is wrong. Mortality is, this may cause my death. So, isn't it, there can be different deterring agents.

But deterrence is, okay, I should not do this. So, deterrence can come by many factors. So, he had no deterrence because of morality.

But at least his thought of his mortality that I might die, that did come in. But what happens? One of the characteristics of craving, craving as Krishna says, Buddhi Brahmashad, Buddhi Nashod, Buddhi Nashad Pranashyati. So, it destroys one's intelligence.

So, the intelligence can come from our own memory, intelligence can come from others' words that we remember or it can be others' words that they remind us again and again. But it doesn't stay. So, now his choice that the dhyayato, what we contemplate on, that is up to us.

He can contemplate our attachments and our indulgences and then we will be pulled in that direction. But if he contemplates the words of scriptures and the caution that comes from that. So, in one sense, we can say that we, do we have free will? Yes, we have free will.

But we are pushed or we can say pulled. We are pushed to act as we remember. So, remembering is a matter of choice.

Then after that we are pushed to act is a matter of chance. Chance means what? That's beyond our control. Like we choose what we dwell on.

The Bhagavad Gita gives the example. I am talking about this over here. These were the three boundaries I talked about.

So, here the example has given 2.66. Krishna says, what that means over there is that if there is a boat in an ocean and a wave comes or a storm comes, wind or wave, it sweeps the boat away. So, now the choice for the boat, once it is caught in the wave, it's very difficult for it to escape. It will get swept away.

But if the boat person is alert, then they can notice where a current is coming, where a wave is coming from and they can avoid the wave. So, that wave that comes, what Krishna says, Indriyanam hi charatam, yan mano anubhidhiyate. These two lines, basically he was saying, outside in the world there are many objects, they all come within our perception, but we dwell on something.

So, once we start dwelling on something, then a current comes and that current sweeps us away. The choice is about what we are dwelling. But once we make that choice, then what we will be doing almost goes out of our choice.

So, if somebody is alcoholic, they are dwelling, when can I get alcohol, when can I get alcohol? And then they may create, then they may keep no money with them, may keep no credit cards with them, may keep no alcohol with them, but still they will find some way to end up doing what they want to do, what they are craving to do. So, there is always this dynamic of choice and chance. So, what we are dwelling, that is a matter of choice.

What we are doing thereafter becomes something beyond our control. So, Ravan said, when Vibhishan spoke to Ravan, please don't let our entire kingdom be destroyed. Just for the sake of your desire for Sita.

So, Ravan just turned away from Vibhishan. He paid no heed to him. Vibhishan's heart started sinking.

There are times when we feel that some disaster is coming. We know it is coming, but we feel as if there is nothing we can do to prevent it. So, that was the feeling Vibhishan was having.

Then that day in the court, again Vibhishan made an extremely earnest plea. He said, you know brother, I speak only out of concern for you and for our kingdom and for our soldiers. He said, please do not send our entire kingdom on the path to destruction just for the sake of one woman.

Now, this was the time, there are remarkable parallels between the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. Now, this is the time when Indrajeet speaks and Indrajeet insults Vibhishan. He says, you are a coward and you are making everyone else into cowards.

You are scared, you do not have the courage to fight and therefore you are trying to make everyone fearful. All these warriors are great heroes. They are all ready to fight and they are confident that they can win.

What battles have you ever fought? What battles have you won? What can you do to assess military might? Now, in any traditional society, most societies, because in most traditional societies at least, there is some nominal respect for hierarchy. That means, say, we don't yell at our parents, we don't yell at our uncles. So, when Vidura gives good advice to Dhritarashtra, Dhritarashtra neglects that and then Duryodhana insults Vidura.

Something similar happens over here also. So, now, this itself is a serious insult. Vibhishan turned towards Ravan but he does not have much hope.

He again finally questions Ravan. He says, you may want to question my heroism but please don't question my wisdom. He said, please don't send our entire kingdom to the path of destruction.

Ravan seconds his son's words. He says, I have no need for you. Go wherever you like.

So, now, rejecting Vibhishan's advice is categorically a matter of choice. Now, again we could say that how much did he really have choice? If somebody is very lusty, does that person have a choice? Now, well, yes and no. See, Ravan did have a sense of fear of his mortality.

And that's why he never tried to force himself on Sita. Now, he could have thought that I am so powerful that even the God's curses won't work. But he said, it's too risky to try it out.

So, he did have some fear of his mortality. So, that means some deterrence was working for him. Some people try to twist the whole story around and they try to make Ravan into a Dravidian and Ram into an Aryan and then they try to create a conflict.

And they say Ravan was so virtuous that Ravan did not force himself on Sita. But it is not a matter of virtue. It was a fear of a curse acting out.

Now, there are cases where even virtuous people, we know Pandu had a curse like that and when Pandu was uniting with Madri, he died. So, these curses are powerful. Of course, that happens later.

But the point is that we can say desire is there. The desire is very strong. But just because some craving is very strong, does that mean the person does not have choice at all? So, we see for Ravan himself, he was controlling his desire.

So, why was he at one level able to control his desire with respect to forcing himself on Sita but he was not able to control his desire with respect to letting Sita go. So, we can't say this is a matter of conditioning alone. There is a choice involved.

So, what happened for him is that there was a sense of arrogance, a sense of power of his military might. So, he thought that I will be able to defeat Ram and then I will exhibit my power, there will be no rival for me. So, one conditioning is lust.

But on top of that when another conditioning comes in, pride comes in, anger comes in, envy comes in, then multiple conditioning that come in, multiple anathas can come in, then they lead to a huge kind of terrible wrong. So, he did have a choice but he chose wrongly. He chose to hold on to his desire.

Even though the object of his desire was not, Hare Krishna, object of his desire was not willing. Now his hope was that if he defeats Ram and he kills Ram, then Sita will submit to him because Sita has no other protector left. It's quite likely that Sita, Sita had already told him that she would never give himself to him.

She would probably end her own life. She would go Sati or something like that. But that was his hope that that's how I will fulfill my desire.

But the point is our conditionings don't excuse our choices. Nowadays there is a tendency to say alcoholism is a disease. And yes, it's a disease.

But that doesn't mean whatever alcoholic does, they can be excused for it. There is always a range and within that range a person can stay. Now we look at the other side, Navneeshan had to make a choice.

Now when he had to make a choice, for him it's very easy to say that he betrayed his brother. And that's how he is often seen like that. Now, well, yes and no.

He did betray. But he is, if at all he is Drohi, he is Ravan Drohi, not Lanka Drohi. What is the difference between the two? That the king's duty is to protect the citizens and take care of the citizens.

But if the king is endangering the whole kingdom and endangering all citizens for the sake of his personal desire, then the king is actually violating his own sacred contract, his own sacred trust that the citizens have reposed in him. The king, so in one sense it was not that Vibhishan betrayed Lanka, it was Ravan who betrayed Lanka. That he was meant to be the protector of Lanka but he endangered Lanka for the sake of his selfish desire.

And so Vibhishan at this point had three options. First option was that he just walk away. Because Ravan had said I have nothing to do with you.

I want nothing to do with you. He could have just walked away. And he could have gone to the Himalayas, he could have made one on Tirtha Yatra.

This is what Vidura did. Vidura went to Tirtha Yatra. Vibhishan could have done that.

That was option one. Second option for him was that he could have tried to make a coup, a rebellion from inside. And he could have overthrown Ravan and then he could have given the kingdom, given Sita back to Ram.

Third was that he could go over to Ram's side and tell him that your enmity is not with Lanka. Your enmity is with the current ruler of Lanka. So, I was giving this class online just a few days ago.

Similar point, the same story I was telling. And then after this I gave the class to devotees in America. There is an American devotee who said, you can tell your Indians that your enmity is not with America.

It's with the current ruler of America. So, now, what happened? Now, Vibhishan considered three options. Now, in the case of Vidura, he had hope that Dhritarashtra could change.

See, in the Mahabharata, the active villain is Duryodhana. And the passive villain is Dhritarashtra. So, in the language of addiction, somebody is an addict and somebody is a codependent.

That means the person who is there with the addict and is facilitating the addict's activities. So, Vidura had hope that Dhritarashtra could be saved. Then Dhritarashtra never have been able to see beyond that.

He said, you killed my son. You be my well-wisher. I will never hear anything that you say.

That was one of the activities. You are partial to Pandu's sons. You don't like my son.

You are averse to my son. And that's why Vidura did not go to that side. Vidura went on the side of the Himalayas.

And after Duryodhana was out of the picture, Vidura came back. And that's when he was able to enlighten Dhritarashtra. Now, with respect to Vibhishana, he considered that here Ravan is the actual villain.

And he felt that he could save himself by going to the Himalayas. But he was a member of the royal dynasty. He had taken privilege as a member of the royal dynasty from the citizens and he felt he had a duty to protect them.

So, abandoning them for his own personal salvation would be neglecting his duty. And he recognized that his influence was not large enough that he could possibly bring about a rebellion over there. Ravan may not have many faithful followers, but he had many fearful followers.

That sometimes people who are tyrants, the way they create, if anybody opposes, they make an example out of that person. That they may create terror in people's minds. So, he realized that he would not be able to incite a rebellion.

That's when he decided to go over to Ram's side. And this was an act of double degree of courage. One is, first of all, rejecting Ravan.

If Ravan came to know about it, Ravan could catch him, torture him and cause him immense pain before killing him. Tyrants are like that. So, that itself was a huge amount of risk.

In the Second World War, there are several Nazi generals, they tried to assassinate Hitler. Because they realized that we are losing now. And the more we keep fighting, the more we will suffer casualties.

Our own soldiers will die, we will die. So, there is one general who especially tried to have him assassinated. And he had many other generals supporting him.

Somehow Hitler survived. And after Hitler survived, what he did was, he hung those generals to die, but he did not use a normal rope. He used like a particular kind of plastic.

And that plastic was cutting their neck for 11 days. And so, 11 days they were suffering in pain and then they died. So, the tyrants can be brutal and anybody goes against them, how they cause suffering.

So, that was one danger for Vibhishan. The second danger was that he might go on to the opposite side, but the opposite side might not accept him at all. Ram may think that, how can I trust you? So, he took a great risk over there.

Now, we can look at Vibhishan's act from a bhakti perspective that he surrendered to the Lord. And that's a glorious act. But even from there they say that we can't trust him.

But Hanuman says that we can trust him. I see no deception on his face. And Lord Ram says that yes.

Sakrudeva prapannayam. Even if once a person says, Tavasmi itiyachate. I offer my heart to you.

Abhayam sarvadatasme. Forever I will grant you protection. That was the assurance that Lord Ram gives.

Vratam mama he says. This is my vratam. So, Lord Ram accepts him.

And that choice is an extremely courageous choice. Now, if you consider among these three brothers, Ravan, Kumbhakarna and Vibhishan. So, here what happens? Kumbhakarna stays with Ravan.

Now, he stays with Ravan either because he is equally demoniac or because he is faithful to demoniac person or he is arrogant and he thinks I can win. Now, any of these reasons could be there. All of them could be there.

But he has that sense of arrogance. That I will defeat everyone. And when Kumbhakarna comes to fight.

Now, there is, at that time there is a meeting between Vibhishan and Kumbhakarna on the battlefield. So, there is no record of a direct meeting between Vibhishan and Ravan direct after Vibhishan leaves. But on the battlefield there is a brief encounter between them and Vibhishan, Kumbhakarna says, How could you have betrayed our entire kingdom? How could you have done this? And Vibhishan has tears in his eyes.

You know this is his brother. This is the last time you are going to see his brother. He is a demon but still he is his brother.

So, he said that I had to do what I could to save Lanka from the destruction that Ravan was subjected to. He said, I did my duty as a brother. So, then Kumbhakarna says, I will do my duty as a brother.

So, here what happens is that our sense of choice, this is a theme which I will elaborate more in the next session. That when we do choices, there is broadly, how do we make choices? There are internal factors that shape our choices and external factors that shape our choices. So, internally what shapes our choice is our intelligence.

This is internal and external. Now, intelligence is what shapes our choice and then there is our conscience. Conscience is our sense of right or wrong.

So, intelligence is more rational. So, you could say about intelligence and conscience, both are internal. Intelligence is what contemplates the consequences and then decides.

So, intelligence is more associated with the head. It's more rational. Conscience is more emotional, not in the sense of being sentimental.

But conscience is where we feel bad about doing something bad. So, it acts on the level of emotion and it's not that this will lead to something bad, so I should not do it. No, this is wrong.

This is what I should not do. So, if you are rushing through a crowded room and you step on someone's foot. Now, sometimes you may not even notice who it is, but immediately, I am sorry.

You say, I am sorry, I am sorry. Now, if somebody is a very arrogant person, they step on someone's foot and say, get out of my way. You know, I was not in the way, you came and said, get out of my way.

They may say like that, fool, why are you in my way? And they look up and they say, that is a very powerful person. Maybe that person is well built. Oh, I am sorry, I am sorry.

So, there is no conscience over there, but the intelligence is acting over there. So, now in the case of Ravan, did he have any conscience? No. No, he had absolutely no sense.

That moral radar was dead for him. That he had no sense of that moral dimension. So, to my brother, did he use his intelligence and think sequences? Now, conscience, it is like our inner compass, but the moral compass, it is also sometimes shaped by our conditions.

So, that is why, conscience alone, unguided by intelligence, is not enough. Because, what happens, the conscience is culturally conditioned. I was talking with one devotee in Australia, no, it was in American, Texas.

So, he is American devotee and he is born up in what they call as cattle farm. So, for generations, he said, my family came, they were the first settlers in America. So, we have been doing cattle farming for around 8 to 10 generations.

And he said, like eating beef is a daily part of our life. So, he said, when I gave up meat, I felt as if I was betraying my tradition. Now, he showed me a cartoon at that time, not a cartoon, it is an incident from a movie.

He said that, how deeply rooted the culture is like that. He said, this is one Texan, he is asking another Texan. He says, are you a vegetarian? I am an American.

So, the idea is, if I am an American, how can I be a vegetarian? That is the idea. So, he felt that as if I am betraying my culture, my tradition by giving up eating meat. So, this is the example of a conscience that has become culturally conditioned.

Just like a magnet, it is normally meant to point towards the north. But if the magnet comes under the influence of some other stronger magnetic force, then what happens? The magnet may no longer point towards the north. So, normally our conscience directs us rightly.

But sometimes the conscience may also misdirect us. So, now, Vibhishan Kumbhakarna may have thought that I am doing the right thing. I am sticking with my brother.

But what is the point of sticking with your brother if that is going to cause your death, your brother's death and everybody says, your kingdom is going to be destroyed. Say, oh, we want to be heroic. But heroic for what purpose? It was just, if Ram had been invading the kingdom and wanted to destroy the kingdom, it is a different thing.

But they had abducted Sita. Rao had abducted Sita. So, what happens? Conscience, if there is, we have these two inner guides for our choice.

So, if we have only conscience and we have only intelligence. If we have only conscience, then what may happen is that because of we may be culturally misled. Culturally misled means our culture may tell us, I am using the word culture means whatever way we grew up in.

Whatever conceptions of right and wrong we grew up in. Some of them may be right, some of them may not be right. So, our compass can get misdirected.

So, we may be culturally misled. Now, if we have only intelligence without conscience, then it will not that we will give up wrong. We will just, it will be like a rational, it's more like a strategic pause than a no.

It's like, I don't feel that this is a wrong thing. I won't do it just now because I don't have the power. In future if I can get the power, if I can get away with this, then what's wrong with it? So, that way, for Rawal, the intelligence was there a little bit.

Initially, when he wanted to abduct Sita, Maricha said don't do it. He agreed. So, the intelligence was there.

But it was not because this is wrong. It is that maybe it will lead to bad consequences. But then later Shurpanbha came and incited him with the desire for Sita.

Then he told Maricha, you listen to me or otherwise I will kill you. So, that was just a pause and that pause was strategic. It was not a principled no.

So, just having intelligence without conscience is also not adequate. Ideally speaking, what we should have is both conscience and intelligence. So, generally speaking, our intelligence is developed by Shastra.

The more we study scripture, the more we nourish our intelligence, the more we learn to make good choices. We at least learn to see the consequences of our actions and by that we learn to make good choices. Now, how is our conscience developed? It is developed by Shuddhi, it is by purification.

Now, purification can happen by sadhana. Purification can happen primarily by the remembrance of Krishna. So, it's like, what is it, I earlier gave the example of a magnet.

There is a small magnet. So, what is a small magnet over here? An individual conscience. Our conscience is like a small magnet.

But then there could be a cultural conception. Cultural conceptions, they are like a large magnet. And sometimes what happens is the cultural conceptions may overshadow one's own small magnet.

This is a conscience. So, for example, if the military, if you are in the military and the military gives orders, top brass gives orders, kill all innocent people, shoot all these children also dead. So, now what may happen is, now should I obey the military or should I not obey the military? Now, I have joined the military to fight against soldiers, to fight against enemies.

I didn't join the military to kill small children. So, sometimes the peer pressure or the pressure of the culture, everybody is saying yes, I have to say yes. So, after the Second World War, there were Nuremberg trials.

Basically, the Nazi soldiers and Nazi officers were trying that how could you kill all these Jews in the gas chambers? And their reply was we were just following orders. And these were the orders we got and we were following it. So, that was not accepted as a defense.

You said that you have your own individual conscience. Sometimes the cultural conceptions may overshadow it. So, Krishna is the largest magnet.

So, if we bring our consciousness closer to Krishna, this link is established, this is what will lead to Shuddhi. This will not lead to purification. And then our inner moral compass will also start pointing rightly.

And that's how we will be able to make good choices. Now, Vibhishan, when he chose Lord Ram, now that was both his intelligence and his conscience, both were working. By his conscience, he knew abducting Sita was the wrong thing.

By his conscience, he knew that this is Adharma. It will lead to consequences. He was a devotee.

He knew going against Lord Ram is a bad thing, terrible thing. With his intelligence, he also recognized that I have a duty for my citizens. And therefore, for their sake, I will go against the current king.

So, in this way, he shows how intelligence and conscience can both work together for one to make a good choice, even if it is not immediately a socially approved choice. So, I will summarize what we discussed today. Three points we discussed.

We are continuing our discussion about the choice and chance in the Mahabharata. Today I talked about the theme of three brothers. So, the first point we discussed is about, say, once passed, we discussed that, we started the story of Vali and Sugriva and there we discussed how much the past affects our present.

So, we could say our present is the domain of choice. The past influences on us. Past has already happened.

That is the moment of chance. So, we talked about good people doing good actions. We are discussing the moral dynamic over here that there is a nature and there is the action.

So, normally we would say good people will do good actions. Bad people will do bad actions. So, good people doing good actions was Ram and Lakshman.

But a good person doing a bad action was example of Vali. Now a bad person doing a bad action, that is both we could say Ravan and Kumbhakarna. Of course, we have Duryodhana also but we are not going in that direction right now so much.

So, now here we discussed that do bad people have a choice at all or do they have to do bad things only. So, the point we discussed was how there is always a range. So, the range itself, the range that is there, that is a matter of chance.

What is the range? That means that has come from the past. We can't control that. But within the range we have choice.

What do we choose? And we looked at Ravan himself. That Ravan, he had craving for Sitala. But then he did, there was deterrence.

There was no deterrence because of morality for him. Was there deterrence because of mortality? It's interesting how it worked. Mortality because of curse, there was a deterrent.

But mortality that of opposing attack, like attack by forces, that did not act as a deterrent for him. So, he got some wisdom but that wisdom acted as, so that acted as a light rather than lightning. No, it acted as a lightning rather than light.

So, we discussed at this point the example that what we are dwelling on, dwelling mentally, that is a matter of choice for us. For all of us, what we dwell on mentally, that's a matter of choice. But once we start dwelling on a particular thing, then doing physically, that will become something beyond our control.

Like a boat caught in a particular area, in a particular current, will be swept away. But whether the boat gets into that current or not, that's a matter of choice for us. The last part I discussed was about how? For our choice, there are two internal factors, that choice shapers.

They are intelligence, conscience. Now, we discussed at one level how? Okay, let me put it another way. Boat based on a sense of conscience as well as a sense of intelligence.

I could just put all these four characters in one sense over here. There is conscience and there is intelligence. So, we can have it, it can be positive or it can be negative.

It can be positive, that means intelligence we can use for a wrong purpose. So, we can say Vibhishan had both of these positive. Now, what happened to Ravan was? Ravan was initially here, that he had intelligence, but he went down over here.

He had intelligence, but he gave up his intelligence because of Dhyayato Vijayan. Now, what about Kumbhakarna, where was he? He had a sense of conscience. But his conscience itself was negative.

And we could say Kumbhakarna was in one sense always here itself. So, it's not that he didn't have conscience, but his conscience was also misleading him. So, for all of us, we can try to prepare, we strengthen our conscience through study of scripture, through shuddhi, through purification.

Krishna is the ultimate magnet. And improve our intelligence through study of shastra. And this way we all can make better choices.

Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Are there any quick questions or comments? Kumbhakarna initially asked, he thought that you should have asked before you actually abducted Sita.

Do you think that he would have replied in a positive way or negative way if Ravan actually had consulted him? And this comes from a question, can bad people make good choices? Well, certainly they can make less bad choices and that could be a good choice in a sense. So, it's difficult to say because we don't really have much of a back story of Kumbhakarna. Kumbhakarna was more craving for food than sexual pleasure, the way Ravan was.

So, he could have possibly seen the folly of what Ravan was saying. If he had said no also, would Ravan have actually agreed to it, listened to it, that's also open to question. So, in historical what ifs, what if this had happened, they are sometimes entertaining as mental explorations.

But in general, I don't think Kumbhakarna's advice Ravan would have listened to also. Yes, any other questions? Yes, Maricha he did not listen to initially. So, that's why once he was triggered, then he just lost his good sense, whatever little good sense he had.

Thank you very much for the wonderful session. When I hear sessions like this, the wisdom again always feels very illuminating, but often it's like somewhere the lightning doesn't last as light, how can I improve? Okay. So, we hear good wisdom, but that also doesn't stay with us.

See, I think is it also like lightning for us? Well, yes and no. See, there are three levels at which you can look at it. First is that, especially within the Bhakti tradition, Shravanam is also purifying.

So, even if after that there is no Smaranam and there is no acting on it, if we are just hearing that itself is purifying. So, in that sense don't devalue that. So, we will get purified by that gradually.

Now, it can be a problem where that hearing is only for show and there is absolutely no effort to act on it. There is inability to act on something and there is unwillingness to act on it. And beyond unwillingness to act there is further you could say there is an intention to pretend.

That I am such a nice person, that's why I pretend publicly. So, that's when see for everyone between our ideal and we could say our real, who I am, there is always going to be a distance. This is inevitable for everyone.

Now the question is that not that there is a distance, the question is what are we trying to do about the distance. One way is that, the healthy way is that we try to lift up the real. The unhealthy way is we bring down the ideal.

This is not a practical ideal, so just bring the ideal down. But this is bad. The worse is that we hide the real and we exhibit the ideal.

This is what is Mithyacharya. But if we are not doing that, if we are trying to implement, then gradually we will be able to implement it. Now sometimes we also have to be careful in terms of understanding our strengths and our weaknesses.

So, if we consider the Atma, the Atma may have many conditionings, many temptations to fight with. So, for example, India has Pakistan as a threat, India has China as a threat. Now India has taken some strong action against Pakistan.

We have not really taken that strong action against China, right? Why? Because we are not yet strong enough. That does not mean we are letting China walk over us, we are not going to let China take over Delhi. Maybe in Doklam something might have happened, but that's where it is.

So like that some anarthas for us may be like China. And we cannot really fight against them and win right now. So, if we make our entire spiritual life about fighting an anartha that is not winnable for us, then if India concentrates all energy on fighting against China itself, then not only will we still be defeated by China, but we may be attacked by other countries also.

Isn't it? So, we have to accept that this particular anartha, I cannot fight against it at this particular point. That doesn't mean I surrender to the anartha completely. There is some boundary, there is some regulation and we move on.

We focus on strengthening ourselves, fighting against those anarthas which are winnable for us. And as we gain strength, as we gain confidence, strength and confidence are two opposite things. Strength is actual having the capacity to fight and win.

Confidence is having the belief that I can fight and win. So, we need both strength and confidence. So, gradually as our strength and confidence increases, strength will increase by our practice of bhakti, confidence will increase by our actually being able to defeat some anarthas.

Some, may be small anarthas. Then we will be able to tackle the bigger anarthas also. And third is to have some boundaries, it's good if we can keep ourselves in a community, in a culture, where even if we go off, we won't go away way too far.

There will always be some external cultural boundary that also come upon us. Thank you. Yeah, good point.

Thank you. Are we going to cover the external also? Yes, definitely. See external, a sharp observation from your side.

So, external are primarily shaped by two factors. One is the law and the other is the culture. So, now certain things may be culturally disapproved.

Say for example, if we come to polite society, now somebody may be used to speaking severe words. But if they come to a polite society where such words are not used, then they themselves will pause and not use those words. So, it's like an external literary, that's culture.

And then there is law also. So, law is that you will be punished for something. So, those are external factors and we will talk about them when we talk about the four brothers.

Thank you. Any last question before we stop? What if that shuddhi happens when the small magnet connects to the bigger magnet, Krishna? So, what if someone is not able to connect? What is the way of improvement? Even with Shastras, if someone is not able to read regularly, so what is the way of improving the choice? So, if someone cannot say either study Shastra or cannot connect with Krishna for shuddhi, is there a way to improve choice? Well, yes, it may not be as fast, but it is possible. So, the idea is that if somebody is in Tamoguna or somebody is in Rajoguna.

Now, you know this game that is nowadays becoming popular in India, it's called wall climbing. You have a wall and you try to use your physical strength to climb up the wall. So, what happens is, if somebody is trying to climb up a wall, somebody is trying to climb up a wall, now what happens is, they can use their own grip, their own push and they can hold on and they can rise up.

Now, the downward pull will be much stronger, isn't it? Because gravity is there. So, like that for all of us, wherever we are at the moral wall, going down is very easy. Of course, it's not that easy if you could say that in this particular thing there is a grip for the hand and there is a support for the leg.

So, even if we fall, we will fall at a particular level. We won't go all the way down. So, for example, say somebody likes to drink and they keep drinking but they have a job and they have at least enough sense of responsibility that I have to go for my work.

There are functional alcoholics and there are dysfunctional alcoholics. So, dysfunctional alcoholics means they can't take care of their own health, they can't take care of, they can't hold a job. But functional alcoholics is that they have a very dysfunctional relationship with alcohol.

But apart from that, all day they will do their work and in the evening when they come back, they have to keep drinking. But still by the next morning, they have enough sobriety to go back and work. So, what happens is, they are falling but there is a foot rest over there.

They have enough sense of responsibility that I should not lose my job. We can pull ourselves up. So, okay, I have a job, I am taking care of my family but I want my child to go to a better school.

And that means I will have to work harder, I want to earn more money, I need to get a raise. Then I have to kick this habit of alcoholism. So that my boss will trust me and give me a promotion.

Then that could be one thing which sense of responsibility can pull a person up. That's possible. But this is a, it's possible but it's laborious.

Now what happens is, Krishna is up here and Krishna gives us a rope and that rope helps us. So that is the process of Krupa. That is the process of, we could say, more precisely it is grace.

You know, mercy and grace are sometimes used interchangeably. But they are not exactly the same thing. Mercy means what? Whatever negative we are supposed to get, some punishment, some karmic consequence, that is decreased.

Like some criminals may file a mercy petition. Now grace is whatever positive we get, that is increased. We get more positive than what we deserve.

So in that sense the word Krupa in Sanskrit includes both these senses. So the idea is that by connection with Krishna we can be pulled upwards. So going back to the special magnet metaphor, even if there is not an ultimate magnet, like, still there could be one magnet which is disorienting the magnet and another which is reorienting the magnet.

So for example, if a person, they have friends with whom they drink and they have their family that they have to take care of. So the friend's pull is one magnet, the family's pull is another magnet. So Duryodhana, he had the pull of Shakuni and Karna.

He also had the pull of Vidura and Bhishma, to some extent Drona also. Now he chose to come under the pull of Shakuni and Karna. So even if we don't have the ultimate magnet, still within whatever accessibility we have, we can try to make good choices.

So thank you very much. Shri Ramachandra Bhagwan ki Jai. Shrila Prabhupada ki Jai.

Gaur Bhaktivinda ki Jai. Thank you so much for such a wonderful session over here.