Can we be spiritual without being religious? – Prerana festival talk

That we can be spiritual without being religious. So, first we have to discuss what do we actually mean by these two words, spiritual and religious. The meanings of words are not frozen in a dictionary.

Words have denotations and connotations. Denotations refers to what they mean literally in a dictionary. But connotations refer to what are the associated thoughts, emotions and perceptions that certain words bring in people's minds.

So, words have both connotations and denotations. And understanding this is important. So, for example, the word wicked, till 15, 20, 30 years ago, it meant cruel.

Now, if you look in the latest dictionaries, the word wicked has a positive spin to it. When people have a very enjoyable party, they say, we had a wicked party. So, now if we had a time machine and say a person from 1950 came here and he said, you have a wicked party and you are enjoying it.

They find it very strange. So, the meanings of the words keep changing. This is just one example.

There are many examples that can be given. So, for example, in 1900, a famous Sanskrit English scholar translated the Ramayana to English. And one of the chapters of the Ramayana, he titled as The Rape of Sita.

And when that chapter, when that book is today read by Indians, Hindus, they feel enraged. You know, there was never any physical violation. So, if you go back to 100 years, at that time, the word rape had a different meaning.

It simply meant abduction. It did not mean physical violation. So, there are many examples we can give like this.

But the point is, words have different implications which people have in their minds, which come in people's minds when they hear the words. So, what do we mean by spiritual and religious? And why are we, first of all, talking about this topic? So, actually, in America, and as American culture is coming in various parts of the world, there is a whole group of people who proudly label themselves as SBNR people. SBNR is spiritual but not religious.

They say that we are spiritual people, but we are not religious people. In fact, a famous or infamous atheist has written a book in which he starts by saying, I am a spiritual atheist. Now, whatever the word spiritual atheist means, he only knows that or maybe even he does not know that.

So, the point is, the word spiritual has certain appealing connotations to it. And that is why everyone wants to appropriate the word to themselves. And so, even atheists want to say that, spiritual atheist.

And in fact, this same atheist in his book considers religion to be one of the greatest evils of society. And he says that if, he does not believe in God, but he says, if God came in front of me. So, you know, atheists, for them, God is a very convenient fiction who exists only for the purpose of, so that they can give advice to God.

So, God pops into existence to receive advice from them and after receiving their advice gracefully and gratefully, God pops back into non-existence. That is their idea. So, he said, if God came in front of me and I had to, and he asked me, there is one evil you can remove from the world.

So, he said, if you give me a choice between removing rape from the world and removing religion from the world, he said, I will remove religion from the world. So, this is such a ghastly idea, where one is a brutal crime and the other is actually elevating activity. But this is his antipathy.

Antipathy means hatred towards religion. Of course, he is a, you could call it a, there are, we often know what religious fanatics, but he is a atheistic fanatic. But why I am talking about him here is, the same person is ready to call himself as a spiritual atheist and considers religion to be such a great evil that he wants it to be eradicated from the world.

So, what do people have in mind because of which they find the word spiritual attractive and the word religious unattractive? So, actually, in general, many people equate being religious with being narrow-minded. You know, you believe in something and you think you are right and you think that anybody who doesn't agree with your belief, they are all wrong. They are all foolish.

In fact, worse than foolish, they are all going to go to hell. And actually, there are some people who believe like that. Unfortunately, there are some religious people, religionists, who do believe like that.

They say, if you don't agree with our beliefs, then you are going to go to hell and we will help you get there faster also. So, people equate being religious with being narrow-minded, with being fanatical. And they feel, I don't want to be religious.

Another thing people associate with being religious is being attached to certain externals. You say that, you should do like this, you should do like that, you should go here, you should not go there. People think religious means it brings just attachment to certain externals and it also brings narrow-mindedness.

We will talk about this a little later. One of the main reasons for this idea is that there has been a significant amount of violence in the name of religion. That has happened throughout the world.

So, people feel that you religious people, you believe that one person believes this is God, another person believes that is God. Now, you have some fight about the other world and you create a fight in this world. So, they say that, you people, you are making this world worse than what it should be.

And some of their points are indeed valid. So, if religion makes people narrow-minded, makes people fanatical, makes people irrationally aggressive towards others, then that sort of religion can be undesirable. So, when people can think of the word religious, they often think of it as narrow-minded.

And that's why they feel, I don't want to be religious. On the other hand, when people think of the word spiritual, they often think of the word spiritual as being something, being an avenue to new experiences. Those who are spiritual, yes, they are open-minded, you want to have some new experiences, try this out, try that out, go here, go there.

In fact, there are certain drugs. In the 1960s, 1970s, America witnessed a counterculture. And at that time, many young Americans started searching for spirituality.

And at that time, the popular notion among them was that one of the ways to become spiritual is by taking psychedelic drugs. Psychedelic is consciousness-altering drugs. So, there was a drug, LSD, which was portrayed as having remarkable psychedelic properties, which would lead to spiritual states of consciousness.

So, now, LSD was an acronym, was a short form for a chemical, which was called as LSD. But these people who started taking LSD, they renamed LSD as League of Spiritual Discovery. So, all those people who take LSD, you know, we all belong to the spiritual discoverer's group.

And they said, this is a, so they said, this is a spiritual drug. So, anything people think that which will give us some new experiences, that is spiritual. So, somebody may say that, okay, I went to a picnic, and I went to a hill station, and I saw the sunrise, and I saw the sky, and I saw the stars, and it was so spiritual.

So, people's idea of being spiritual is simply the idea that something which makes you feel good, makes you feel peaceful, makes you feel something new, that they call as spiritual. So, now, who will not want something like that? So, if spiritual is as vague, as vague, as just feeling good, feeling new, feeling nice, then who will not want that? So, people say, yes, we want to be spiritual. And that is what even atheists want.

So, they say, yes, I am a spiritual atheist. So, the idea of spiritual simply means a feel-good kind of experience, which has no ideological or philosophical implication, and which has no lifestyle obligation. That means you don't have to believe anything, you don't have to do anything, you just experience.

Now, this idea of being spiritual, so now, I have discussed about two things over here. By spiritual, if we just mean being open-minded, and by religious, if we mean being close-minded, then certainly, we all would like to be spiritual and not religious. But are these the only meanings of spiritual and religious? Actually, if we look at the Vedic scriptures, they explain spirituality not just in terms of some dogmas.

Dogmas means some beliefs. So, some of these people who are opposed to religion, they say that actually being religious means what? You only have to do three things. Pay, pray, obey.

What is it? You come and pay, give some donation in the temple, or the mosque, or the church, or the synagogue, then go and there is some God, you don't even know who that God is, but that doesn't matter. You just pray to him, and then whatever you are told, obey. So, people think religion means pay, pray, obey.

So, now, this sort of thing doesn't appeal to thoughtful, intelligent people. People think that this sort of religion is something which I don't want to have anything to do with. But the Vedic scriptures describe that actually, spiritual is definitely an experience, but it is a state of consciousness that we can steadily experience.

It is not just a one-time experience that we can have. Spiritual is a state of consciousness that can be steadily there. And religion is the process by which we can experience that spiritual state of consciousness.

So, repeat, spiritual is what? It's a state of consciousness. It's an experience, but not just a one-time experience. It's a state of awareness.

It's a state of consciousness that can be always there with us. And religion is meant to be a process by which we can rise to that spiritual level of consciousness. And significantly, it is not that there has to be only one way to rise to that level of consciousness.

So, if we look at the Vedic understanding of spirituality, in Bhagavad Gita, in the ninth chapter, the second verse describes that, राज्यविद्या राज्यगुहियम् पवित्रमिदमुत्तमं प्रत्यक्षावगमं धर्म्यम् सुसुखं कर्तमवेयम् So, राज्यविद्या is the king of knowledge, is the king of secrets, and most importantly, Krishna says, प्रत्यक्षावगमं धर्म्यम् प्रत्यक्षावगमं धर्म्यम् So, it is something which one can confirm by direct experience. So, the Bhagavad Gita's understanding of spirituality is very different from पे, प्रे, ओबे. Bhagavad Gita's understanding is, analyse, realise, and cherish.

So, analyse, analyse the world around us. You know, Newton saw the fruit falling. Now, most people who would have seen the fruit falling, just picked up the fruit and ate that.

What happened? Newton observed the fruit falling and thought, okay, why is the fruit falling? Isn't it? And then, by seeing something which is very easily observable, he started looking for invisible principles. Okay, why does this fruit fall? So, from that, he inferred the invisible principle that there is the law of gravity. So, in general, whether it is scientific knowledge or philosophical knowledge, the advancement of knowledge happens when we move from visible facts to invisible principles.

I observe certain things. In fact, if we look at most of science, people say seeing is believing, but Newton did not stop with that. Seeing is believing, okay, I saw the fruit falling.

See, believe, yes, I saw fruit falls. That did not lead to the advancement of knowledge. After seeing, and he analysed, okay, why is it falling? If we look at most of science, the heart of science is theories.

And none of the theories are things that we can observe. The experiments conducted to verify those theories, they are something we can observe. The results we can observe.

But the theories in themselves, and even the principles that science talks about, most of them are invisible. So, knowledge progresses when we move from visible facts to invisible principles that explain those facts. So, similarly, how do we move towards spirituality? The Vedanta Sutra says, enquire about spiritual truth.

Now, why would anyone want to enquire about spiritual truth? Actually, all of us have at a very fundamental level, an innate longing to live forever, to never die. And this longing is present, not just in us human beings, but it is present in all living beings. And for atheistic theories, which try to explain everything in the universe, one of the biggest problems is this longing for life.

Now, the idea is that everything has evolved from a lump of chemicals and everything has come just by gradual adaptation. So, now, if we look around us, we don't see anything that is permanent. Everything around us is temporary.

Everything is perishing. Then the question comes up, where does our longing for eternal life come from? Suppose, you came into this temple hall, and now the whole floor is made of wood. And suddenly, you saw a gold coin lying over there.

Actually, the question will come, this is all wood around here, where did the gold coin come from? So, when we see something which is remarkably different from its surroundings, at a particular place, we think, where does it come from? So, same way, we see everywhere around us, things are temporary. So, where does our longing to live forever come from? If we were just creatures who are products of matter, then why would we want to live forever? When the very thing that we are made of, that is the material body, it's temporary, everything, every cell is temporary, every organ is temporary, then how did temporary matter ever come up with this idea that I want to exist forever? This is something which is actually unexplainable by materialism. So, at a fundamental level, asking, why do I want to live forever? Or turning the question around, when I want to live forever, why do I have to die? This question is the seed of spiritual enquiry.

And all living beings have to die. And all living beings try to avoid death. But only human beings can question the reason for the existence of death.

And even they can question the reason for the existence of existence. The reason for existence of existence means, why do I exist? So, now this mic is there, and now it exists, but doesn't even know that it exists. Now, a cat or a dog, it exists, but it has no capacity for metaphysical enquiry.

When a cat sees a rat, it doesn't think, why I exist, why that exists, it just pounces on it. Isn't it? So, they are simply driven by their biological drives. So, we alone can think, why do I exist? And this guides us towards some higher truth.

If everything around me is temporary, and yet I have a desire to exist forever, that means there must be a part of me which exists forever. And if I can understand that part, if I can realise that part, then I also can exist forever. So, spirituality begins with this analysis.

Analysis, and we enquire. And then when we complement our analysis, complement means complete, we begin our analysis by this sort of thinking, and we complete that analysis by turning towards scripture. Scripture is basically like God's guidebook for us.

When we live in the world, we can easily observe that most of our necessities for living are pre-arranged. We certainly have to endeavour, we have to have a job so that we can earn a living, so that we can have bread on our table. That's true, but our working in a job does not produce the bread in the field.

That comes by God's arrangement. And even if we work to produce bread, but still we don't produce the air that we breathe, we don't produce the water that we drink. So, we actually, if we look at life objectively, we will find that most of the things that we need in life are provided for.

So, heat, light, air, water, food, they are provided for. So, now, if God has provided for these things, then one important thing for living is knowledge. And if, say, you have some friend who gives you a very expensive machine, which you have never seen, and which you don't know what it is, and he just gives you the machine and doesn't give you any manual, doesn't give you any guidebook, what will you do with that machine? Now, if that person cared enough to give such a valuable and expensive machine, wouldn't that person care enough to also give a guidebook about how to use that machine? Same way, when God has provided so many of our necessities for living, one of the necessities for living is knowledge about the purpose of living.

So, that knowledge is provided by God through the scriptures. So, initially with our enquiry, okay, there is a spiritual dimension to my life. What is it? I want to know about it.

Then we turn towards God, the scriptures, and then we get clearer understanding. Then we get deeper understanding. And the scriptures explain that our present existence is two-dimensional.

We are spirit souls who by nature are eternal, but we are currently inhabiting a physical body. And to the extent we identify with the physical body, to that extent we suffer the pains that happen in the body, that happen to the body as our own pains. Now, television, movies, this can give us an easy example to understand what this misidentification means.

Sometimes people are watching a movie, and in the movie, when the say the villain starts beating the hero, and sometimes, you know, people start trembling, what happened? Get shocked. Or when the hero starts beating the villain, people start beating their neighbour. So, what is happening? They are identifying with what is happening in the movie.

And the emotions which are there for the hero, they identify with them. Now, suddenly a fight is going on, and suddenly the people, let's say, suppose the audience is very intensely identifying with the hero, and suddenly the villain just takes out a knife, stabs, and the hero is dead. You know, people are shocked, what happened? How did the hero die like this? So, people, to the extent they identify with the character in the movie, with the hero, to that extent they will experience the emotions of that character.

So, same way, when the soul identifies with the body, the soul experiences emotions related with the body. And when the body is destroyed, we feel it as our death. But we as souls are eternal.

So, our longing for eternality can be fulfilled when we realise our spiritual identity. Our spiritual identity as souls, when we realise it, then that level of realisation, that level of consciousness is called as spiritual. So, the word spiritual refers to understanding ourselves as soul, and understanding our relationship with God, of whom we are parts, and then understanding our relationship with all living beings through that divine relationship.

So, it's a whole different way of looking at the world. And now, this level of consciousness, spiritual level of consciousness, is something which has to be systematically awakened. There is a process for that.

And to the extent that process is followed, to that extent, a person can rise to a spiritual level of consciousness. Now, what does it involve? You know, when people go to watch a movie, two things happen. If you go into theatre to watch a movie, two things happen.

First is, one light goes off. And second is, another light goes on. All the lights around, they go off.

And then, people forget everything that is around them. So, the scriptures call this as covering. So, when all the lights go on, we can't see anything.

And then, one light that is on the screen, is called prakshepatmika shakti. So, our consciousness gets close to everything else, and it gets focused on one thing. And if we want to get out of the movie, so what is to be done? First is, turn off that light and turn on these lights.

It's the converse of it exactly. So, same way, when we want to become spiritual, there are two aspects to it. Decrease one's materialism.

That's like turning off the light which is getting us into the illusion on the screen. And second is, start those activities which revive our spiritual consciousness, which remind us about our spiritual identity. So, coming to the temple, studying scriptures, learning with devotees, chanting the holy names, these are all activities.

They are not just some religious rituals, which some people like to do and say they do it. They are actually methods by which we can rise to the spiritual level of consciousness. That's why I said analyse, realise.

So, it's not that we just have to do something mindlessly. There is a process. So, we follow this process, then we actually realise the higher truth.

So, I'll give an example for explaining this by using an analogy from science and then I'll use analogy more specifically from medicine. So, spirituality is like a science. So, science, if you see, it has these two aspects to it.

There is theory and there is experiment. So, theory is what tells us. For example, Newton proposed that there is a law of gravity, that every particle of matter attracts the other particle of matter with a force that is directly proportional to their masses and inversely proportional to the square of their distance.

So, this is a theory. Now, at the level of theory, we can't know whether it is true or false. So, that's why there are experiments.

And the experiments are designed to help us verify the theory. Or a theory is verified already, then to demonstrate the theory. So, similarly, if you look at spirituality, there is philosophy and there is religion.

So, philosophy is like the theory aspect of science. Philosophy tells us what is what. Philosophy will tell us that you are not just a material creature, you have a spiritual dimension to your life, that you are that spiritual being.

And there is God and we have an eternal relationship with him. All this is told to us by philosophy. Now, at the level of philosophy, we can't know whether it is true or it is not true.

So, there is religion. So, religion is like the experiment aspect of science. What religion is meant to do is help us verify the philosophy, to help us demonstrate the philosophy.

So, for example, if the philosophy tells us that we are souls and we will get real happiness by learning to love and serve God, then religion offers us means by which we can actually love God. So, religion, for example, now when we chant the holy names. So, what is the purpose of chanting the holy names? It is, all of us as souls have an eternal connection with God, with Krishna, but we have forgotten that connection.

And chanting enables us to revive that connection and thereby we re-experience the higher spiritual happiness that is actually our nature. So, religion enables us to verify whatever the philosophy has taught. So, now if somebody says that I will be spiritual without being religious, what is that like saying? You know, I will be healthy without going to a doctor.

Now, imagine a person who is sick and such a person says that I will be healthy without going to a doctor. Okay, you don't want to go to a doctor, I will be healthy without taking any medicine also. Okay, then that is unrealistic.

That person will not be healthy, that person will at best be having an illusion of health. So, same way, people who think that I can be spiritual without doing any kind of transformation, without following any kind of process for transforming themselves, then their spirituality is largely an imagination. They may just feel sometimes, sometimes they feel good, sometimes they feel spiritual.

But most of the time, people will not feel spiritual for very long. So, these sort of feelings, well, people feel good and they feel good even in relationship with God, but that doesn't last for long. Why? Because those feelings, there is no process to transform the heart.

So, for example, somebody may say, come to a hill station. Before I was introduced to ISKCON, I had gone to a spiritual teacher's class and he told, now I will give all of you a spiritual experience. Okay, so all of us were interested.

What will you do? So, he said, close your eyes. Imagine that you're sitting on the banks of a river. Hear the sound of the waves of the river blowing.

Feel the wind blowing through your ears. Feel the hair flying on your head. See the mountains on the opposite side.

Feel the black clouds grazing the top of the mountains. Your limbs are relaxing. You're feeling peaceful.

You're feeling calm. You're feeling centred. You are spiritual.

So now, some people may actually feel good also. Because, why is that? Because basically, you know, if we just try to project ourselves and imagine some nice scene, we may feel good. But how long will that good feeling last? We can't live in that imagination throughout our life.

We have to come back and deal with the realities of life. So, spirituality is not just some mental conception or some imaginary sentiment. It's actually when we connect with a higher reality.

Then, the spiritual experience becomes tangible. It becomes real. If there is a boat on an ocean, and the ocean waves are going to come constantly, and those waves will cause the boat to shake.

And the bigger the waves, the greater the shaking. Now, how can that boat stop shaking? It has to connect itself with something larger, something thicker, something bigger. The boat is anchored.

Then, the waves may come, but the anchor will ensure that the boat will shake lesser and lesser and lesser. So, same way, we are like that boat. And this world is like an ocean.

The Vedic scriptures compare this world to a Bhava Sagar, the ocean of material existence. And here, there are waves of dualities. There is honour and dishonour.

There is pleasure and pain. There is success and failure. You know, in one World Cup, India is the World Cup champion.

The next World Cup, India doesn't qualify also for the next rounds. So, these things happen. It's how there are dualities.

You know, in one World Cup, a cricketer gets the player of the series award. In the next World Cup, that player is labelled as the villain of the series award. These are the dualities which happen in this world.

So, when these happen, what do we do? We all will experience them at a smaller or a greater scale. And we can't, just as you can't imagine, when the ocean's waves are coming, oh, the ocean is calm, ocean is peaceful. It will not work.

We need to connect ourselves. So, that anchor with which we can connect is God. So, in fact, God is not only the anchor to which we connect.

God is also the anchor by which we connect. That means, when we chant the holy name, Krishna manifests as the holy name by which we can connect with him. So, to the extent we chant attentively, pray to Krishna, sing in kirtans, then that connects our consciousness with Krishna.

And because Krishna is the supremely unchangeable reality, the changes, the stresses, the anxieties of this world don't trouble us anymore. And in fact, Krishna is not just the supremely unchangeable reality. Krishna is a supremely joyful reality.

One of his names is Ram. Ram means Ramati, Ramayati iti Rama. Ramati means one who enjoys and Ramayati is one who gives enjoyment.

That is Ram. So, when we connect with him, we experience higher happiness. So, religious is the means, the method by which you become spiritual.

The Vedic scriptures do recognise that there doesn't have to be only one method by which people can become spiritual. There are different religions. And God himself has given different paths.

One of the great Vaishnava teachers, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, you see him on the altar. He explains that because of difference in his book Chaitanya-Shiksha-Amrita, he says five factors, because of which there are differences in different religions. There are differences in the prophets specifically who come and give God's message.

There are differences in the mentalities of people to whom that message is given. There are differences in the cultural and social atmospheres where that message is given. There are differences in language and there are differences in understandings which are passed over with generations.

So, like that, this is the whole subject, why there are differences. But he says that essentially it is the one message of God that is passed down through the various religions of the world. So, God is not the monopoly of any religion.

God and God's wisdom is the common grace or is the common inheritance, common legacy for all of humanity. And now some religions may in their current expressions be more open-minded and some may be less open-minded. That varies depending on how those religions are understood and how those religions are presented.

When Srila Prabhupada went all over the world in his advanced age, sharing Krishna consciousness with people all over the world, he actually presented a very broad-minded understanding. When Christian priests came to him and they asked him, now what are your thoughts about Jesus? So, Prabhupada said, Jesus is our Guru. They were surprised, Guru.

He had so much love for God that he was ready to lay down his life for the service of God. Such love of God is extraordinary. One who has such love of God is actually our Guru.

So, then is what you are teaching the same as what Jesus taught? Prabhupada said, essentially it's the same. Then why have you come to teach us? Prabhupada said, because you have forgotten it. So, when Krishna describes in the fourth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, that by the passage of time, that spiritual process, that legacy, that wisdom which God has given, that gets lost, that actually applies to all traditions.

It can apply to the Vedic tradition, it can apply to the Christian tradition, it can apply to the Muslim tradition, it can apply to Jewish tradition, that by the power of time, things decline, things get distorted. So, that's why there has to be a periodic revival, resurgence. And when there is a deeper contemplation, then there is proper understanding.

Otherwise, when people are simply religious, then they think, this is my way and that is your way. And both of us are on two opposite ways. So, it's like, imagine, I'll give one more example, then I'll conclude and then we can have question answers.

Suppose, if we look at spiritual and material as states of consciousness, states of being. So, religion is the process by which I can rise from the material state of being to the spiritual state of being. So, now the material state of being is like the deceased state of being.

Why is it considered deceased? Because at this level, we have to suffer death and we have to suffer so many problems because of the anxieties of this world. The spiritual state is like the healthy state. So, now, just as in the world also, if a person is sick and a person wants to get healthy, there can be different therapies that can cure the person.

Some people can take allopathy, some will take naturopathy, some will take homoeopathy, some will take Ayurveda. There are different treatments. Now, the important thing about a treatment is whether it cures the person.

Isn't it? Imagine, if one particular medical stream says, our way is the only way and because we are right, so what we will do is, we will destroy all other doctors. Allopathy is the only right way, so we will destroy Ayurvedic clinics. We will kill Ayurvedic doctors.

You know, this is fanaticism. So, what is the test is, if by following a particular process, a person gets cured or not. If a person actually becomes detached from undesirable material things.

Now, there are many things which are undesirable even from material point of view. Now, people become intoxicated and when they become intoxicated, what happens? You know, they just waste their money so much. Now, Russia, USSR was one of the countries in world where atheism was tried on a nationwide scale and Russia, USSR was the biggest country in the world.

So, officially religion was persecuted and religious practitioners were executed. So, in such a situation, what happened? With no capacity, no facility for experiencing anything higher. What would people do? They have to get some kind of relief from the emptiness in the boredom of life.

So, and most of USSR was poor, so they would just drink vodka. They would drink and drink. So, there was, when Russia started getting, when perestroika started and the communism started disintegrating, now there was a propaganda flyer that was made.

So, you know, what was the state of the people over there? So, the government, in order to bolster its economy, would periodically increase the price of vodka. So, you know, the father is there in the family and the son, they have come to know that the price of vodka has increased. So, the son asks his father, father, will you drink less now? The father says, no, you will eat less now.

So, this is so tragic. So, actually, people are so desperate for something higher that, you know, they may even deprive others, even their own loved ones of their necessity, so that they can get some higher experience. Now, actually, whatever alcohol and things like that, they give some high experience, but after that, they cause so many, so much trouble.

So, these are, so, alcoholism or smoking or things like that, these are even materially undesirable. And when people are too materially attached to it, they hurt themselves, they hurt others. So, if one is becoming spiritual, these, at least these materially undesirable things should go away.

One should break, be able to break free from these things. If somebody says, I am a spiritualist, and that person is addicted to alcohol, addicted to drugs, and addicted to so many things, materialistically, and then how can you really give credence to that person's being spiritual? So, we can't have just sentimentally saying that, oh, whatever you believe is spiritual is spiritual. See, one extreme, as I said, is narrow-mindedness, whereas, suppose a Ayurvedic clinic, allopathic clinic person says that, all other clinics should be destroyed.

The other extreme is to be open-minded. Okay, you know, every building is a hospital. Now, every idea is a pathy.

Some pathy it is. Some kind of treatment it is. We have to be open-minded, but we can't be so open-minded that our brain falls out.

Isn't it? If people think that by anything is spiritual, then what will happen? Nobody will actually be spiritual, because nobody will be following a process of transformation by which people can become spiritual. So, there is an objective criteria. Bhakti-pareesha-anubhava-viraktir-anyatra-ca.

The Bhagavatam says that where there is genuine spiritual experience, there is bhakti, then what happens? There are two characteristics. There is one internal characteristic and one external characteristic. The internal characteristic is para-eesha-anubhava.

One experiences God. Para-eesha. Eesha is God.

Para is one who is transcendental. He cannot be experienced in any other way, but he is experienced through devotion. When he is experienced in this way, what happens? Viraktir-anyatra-ca.

One becomes detached from other experiences. The experience of God is so fulfilling that one doesn't need other titillating or even destructive material experiences. So, the inner symptom is that we are experiencing God.

The outer system is we don't crave for sensual worldly experiences. And in this way, this is actual spirituality. That we rise to a higher level of consciousness where we find happiness within ourselves in our connection with God.

Srila Prabhupada gives a simple definition. Who is a spiritualist? One who finds happiness internally. And who is a materialist? One who seeks happiness externally.

So, we focus on becoming spiritual and religion is a means by which we can become spiritual. So, by practising religion, it should make us spiritual. It should not make us narrow-minded.

And so, literally speaking, is it possible to be spiritual without being religious? Actually speaking, if we mean by being spiritual, open-minded, religious, close-minded, yes, we all want to be spiritual but not religious. But practically speaking, this is summary of the class now. We discussed that spiritual means it's a state of consciousness and that has to be attained and religion is the process by which it is to be attained.

If people forget the purpose of religion to rise to a spiritual level of consciousness, then religion can become a tool for just sentimental blind belief. It can become a tool for intolerance and violence also. We discussed that version of religion is what? Pay, pray, obey.

There's not much contemplation involved. But the Vedic scripture describes religion as what? Analyse, realise and cherish. Analyse.

We discussed, where do I get my longing to be immortal come from in a world which is mortal? And then we turn towards scripture. God has provided everything for living, will he not provide knowledge for living? And then we learn about our spiritual identity and we learn a process by which we can rise to that spiritual level. And we discussed about how? If too caught up in a movie, the way to come out is switch off the movie and then turn on the other lights.

Like that, detach ourselves from material things and attach ourselves to spiritual things. And this happens organically as one grows. And then we discussed about how? There is a process for doing this.

In spirituality, there is philosophy and there is a religion. So philosophy is like the theory aspect of science. Religion is like the experiment aspect.

And then lastly, we discussed about how? When we talk about medicine, there is a healthy state and there is a sick state. And there can be many ways to move from the sick state to the healthy state. But it's not that anything that one does, it will make one healthy.

One has to check whether one is becoming healthy or not. So similarly, there can be many religions which are revealed by God according to time, place, circumstance. The test is whether one is becoming spiritual or not.

And to the extent one becomes detached from material things and becomes attached to spiritual things, to the extent one can experience inner peace, just as a boat with anchor doesn't get shaken and we can experience inner happiness. And that actually is being spiritual. So when we chant, when we come to the temple, we are not just being religious in the sense of being narrow-minded or ritualistic.

For us, religion is a process by which we come to the spiritual level of consciousness. So devotees, we are not narrow-minded. So in that sense, we are spiritual but not religious.

But in the sense that we recognise spirituality is not just some sentimental imagination. It's a state that has to be attained. So in that sense, we are religious, we follow a process by which we can become spiritual.

Thank you very much. Are there any questions? Yes, please. Yes, Hare Krishna Prabhu.

Dandar Pranam. Firstly, thank you very much for the wonderful discourse. And also for the spiritualscientist.com, it is really helpful in all ways.

And I have a question, like I was reading the book, Idol Worship or Idol Worship. So in that, you said like, if idol is so dirty and if, I mean, God cannot come into the idol, so it again overlaps the feature of God's omnipotence. And again, I have a doubt, like, when similarly a non-devotee chants, so it becomes, we say like, it is corrupted, I mean, when we listen maa mantra or from the mouth of a non-devotee, it becomes poisonous.

So how does we equate this thing? Okay, so your question is, if God is omnipotent, then and yet we say that we shouldn't hear chanting of the holy names or we shouldn't hear Krishna Katha from a non-devotee, because that becomes contaminated. So how can some human beings contamination affect God's sound? Actually, it is not God who is affected, it is what is coming to us is affected. It's just like, there can be a huge dam with unlimited amount of water.

But if there is one hole through which it is coming out, one pipe through which it is coming out, and then that pipe is contaminated, then it's not as the full dam is contaminated, but the water that will come out from that pipe is contaminated. So same way, God is pure. But when a particular human being speaks about God, but that person has a self-centred understanding, but that person say things that I am God.

Just giving an extreme example, there was a spiritual teacher who said that, you know, I have not come to tell you that you should worship God. There are other teachers who came to say that. There are some other teachers who said that, I am God.

I have not even come to tell you that. He says, I have come to tell you that you are God. So this is so titillating for the false ego to think, oh, I am God.

Very good. Very good. I am God and I have just realised I am God.

So that means God had forgotten and somebody else, apart from God, had to remind God, you are God. So then that asks the question, how did God forget anything at all? So the simple point is that it is not that God is contaminated ever, but what comes to us, because it is coming through a particular channel, that which comes to us gets contaminated. And even that contamination, we have to understand is in a context.

We have everything has to be seen from the fellow. If something takes place, closer to Krishna or something takes us away from Krishna. So for example, if somebody has never heard anything about Krishna and then somebody sees, say, a movie about Krishna or some picture about Krishna, and that may have been prepared by a non-devotee.

But if that creates a curiosity, what is this Krishna? What is this Bhagavad Gita? I want to find out. And that brings a person closer to Krishna. That is good.

But this is talked about especially for those who are already serious seekers of Krishna. For them, the primary focus is to try to purify their consciousness further. And then if we hear from those who are pure or those who are aspiring to be pure, then that pure consciousness comes to us further.

But if we hear from others, then what happens is Krishna is omnipotent. But the channel's contamination comes not on Krishna, but on what is coming to us. So that is, especially for serious seekers, they should be selective about whom they hear from, because that will determine how much they become purified or not.

It is said for the initial stages, any way you think of Krishna, that is good. Somehow or the other, remember Krishna. But as we advance, it is said that, yes, we should remember Krishna, but in a way that pleases him.

Bhakti is, it is that which pleases Krishna. So there are stages. So initially, it is to, initially, any way a person comes to know about Krishna, that may be good.

But for serious seekers, want to come to know about Krishna in a way which actually takes us closer to Krishna. Does it answer your question? Yes. Yes.

Okay. Okay. People don't want to be religious, because there are so many don'ts, like restriction.

It starts from day, like no tea, no garlic, no onion, no mixing with girls. Can we be spiritual with all these things? So the focus in spirituality, the focus in spirituality is not on saying no. It is on saying yes.

Suppose a person wants to become a champion cricketer. Now, if we want excellence in any field, there has to be a focus that borders on the fanatical. Somebody says, I want to be a cricketer.

Today, I'll play cricket. Tomorrow, I'll play football. The day after tomorrow, I'll play hockey.

Next day, I will play chess. Next day, I'll play carrom. And after one year, I'll become a champion cricketer.

It's not going to work. Now, even in material life, if we want to achieve excellence in something, we have to focus on that thing. And if the person wants to become a good cricketer, is that person thinking, oh, I can't play football, I can't play tennis, I can't play carrom, I can't play chess.

That's not what he's thinking about. What is he thinking about? I want to become a champion cricketer. So when we practise spirituality, we have to understand what is our purpose.

And as we start feeling the charm of Krishna, as we start experiencing the joy of Krishna consciousness, then we will start feeling other things to be unnecessary, irrelevant. So if we are initially starting spirituality, we shouldn't worry too much about what I have to give up. Rather, we can ask the question, there are so many young people just like me, what are they getting that they're ready to give up all these things? Just turn the question around.

You know, why would, if you meet with spiritual people, if you meet with devotees, and if you talk with them, that is, you'll find that most of what they say does make sense. So you will see these people are intelligent. But if they're giving up, they're saying no to so many things.

Why are they saying no? There must be something that they're getting because of which they're saying no to these things. They're able to say no to these things. So we can try to enquire what that is.

And once we get a taste for that, then saying no to those things will happen organically. So we shouldn't bother too much about what all I'll have to give up. Our focus should be what all I will get.

The whole process of bhakti is not of saying no, it's of saying yes. When we say yes to Krishna, the Krishna, the things other than Krishna, they move aside. And it is not that as devotees, for as people who are considering practise of devotion, it is not that the no's are of primary importance.

Although first appearance, it may seem like that. Okay, you have to give up this, you have to give up this, you have to give up that. No.

The focus is we experience Krishna. And as I said, when we experience Krishna, we feel many things are unnecessary. And actually speaking, when you talk about many of the things which are talking about no tea and things like that, now many of these things are not even materially desirable.

Tea, you know, it may be some sort of stimulant. But if you look at it from a long term point of view, it is not really very good for health. In many ways, it is known to be harmful.

And as far as say relationship with the opposite sex is concerned, it is not that that is to be rejected. No, there is a proper way to do that. And yes, you can get married and there is grahastha ashram.

But today's culture where there is free mixing, actually even materially, there may be some titillation, some enjoyment, but it leads to so much complication. Last time when I had given prayer, I had quoted a book from a book called American Paradox by American sociologist. And he said, you know, where is this culture of freedom? You know, anybody can do whatever you want.

You can have a relationship with anyone, eat anything, drink anything, all this. Where does it lead to? So actually, just recent history of America from 1940s onwards to 2000. If you look at America, what has happened? That the divorce rate has doubled.

The depression rate has tripled. The suicide rate has quadrupled. The prison population has pentupled.

The number of babies born out of marriage has sextupled. And the number of people attempting suicide, you know, the number of people who commit successful suicide, that we talked about earlier. But the sheer number of people attempting suicide has gone more than 10 times.

So this whole idea of freedom, freedom, it actually doesn't lead to freedom. You know, we have only one idea of freedom. There are two kinds of freedom.

There is freedom for and there is freedom from. So today's society glamorises the freedom for. Freedom for means freedom for eating, freedom for mating, freedom for doing this, freedom for doing that.

But that is not the only way idea of freedom. There is another kind of freedom that is freedom from. Freedom from greed, freedom from lust, freedom from anger.

Freedom for will not bring as much happiness as freedom from. Suppose a person is an alcoholic addict. Then for that person, everything reminds of alcohol.

You know, everything. You know, just think about drinking. If a person is trying to recover, it's so difficult because there are so many things which keep reminding that person.

So somebody who is not an alcoholic addict, that person has no craving on it. So that person is free from that. So freedom from, freedom from greed.

Now every single thing that is advertised, you know, I want to purchase it, I want to eat it, I want to enjoy it. It actually becomes sickening, it becomes tiring. So, you know, it was mentioned that I write an article on the Gita every day.

So today morning only I wrote the article. Those who make pleasure the purpose of their life, make their life purposeless. Those who make pleasure the purpose of their life, I want this, I want this, I want this, because I enjoy it, enjoy it.

Afterwards, that enjoyment becomes boring. According to a survey in America, how people spend their lives, now 5% of the time of their life they are happy, 5% of the time of their life they are miserable and 90% they are bored. Bored! Why? Because if sensual enjoyment is the only enjoyment that we know about, then if I want to eat and enjoy, out of 24 hours how much can I eat? You know, I can't eat 24 hours.

If I think that sex is the source of enjoyment, then 24 hours how much can a person do that activity? For a few minutes. And when, if that kind of enjoyment is the only idea of enjoyment that we have, when we don't have that enjoyment, then what is there left? Life is boring. So, there are more refined ways of getting happiness.

And freedom for is not the only way of freedom. Spirituality talks about freedom from. When we are free from lust, when we are free from greed, when we are free from anger, then we can connect with Krishna internally and we can experience higher happiness.

So, don't worry about what you have to give up. Think what others are getting and you are missing, because of which they are giving up all these things. And be eager to explore that.

Any other questions? Yeah, okay. Good question. So, if religion is the means to become spiritual, then is there a time when we will be religious? We will become spiritual and so we won't need religion anymore.

Not exactly, because when we become spiritual, what is, as it means spiritual? Actually, spiritual is a relationship. So, as souls, we have a relationship with God, with Krishna. And that relationship is active, it's dynamic, it's ever-flowing.

And in that relationship, we act. So, right now, we may chant the holy names, because as it is a sadhana, it will purify us. But as we become purified, then the holy name is the way we express our love for Krishna.

And the holy name is the way by which we experience Krishna's love for us. So, at that level, it will be a way by which we reciprocate love. So, go back to the medicine or health metaphor.

No, ritually, religion is like the sadhana. It's like the medicine that we take. But it is so wonderful that as we become cured, we realise that what we were treating as a medicine is actually the most relishable nectar.

So, then we take it not because the doctor has prescribed it, then we take it because we enjoy it. So, it's not that we go beyond religious activities. It's just that our motivation for doing religious activities changes.

We do them because we spontaneously like to do them. We have a loving relationship with Krishna and that's why we do those activities. So, there are some other conceptions of spirituality where people think that, you know, religion is just like a tool.

Practise religion and then when you become God, then you give up religion. But the Bhagavad Gita tells us we never become God. We are parts of God and to recognise that we are parts, to realise that we are parts, that is what we do by religion.

And then we actually get the lasting fulfilment and then we do that because of love for Krishna. So, there is fear, desire, duty and love. So, the religious activities can be done because of fear.

Oh, God will punish me. So, I should do it. Desire.

Maybe God will pass me in my exam. So, let me come to the temple. Let me desire.

There is duty. I understand. I have a relationship with God.

Let me serve Him. And then there is love. So, when we come to the level of love, it's a way to express our relationship with Him.

That's why we do those activities. So, it's not that we go beyond religion. But what does happen is that as we become more and more spiritual, we understand God's grace and greatness more.

And then we can appreciate spirituality in other places also. Bhaktivinod Thakur says in one of his prayers, let's say, if we go to a mosque or a church or some other place where God is being worshipped, in a way that is different from how we are worshipping Him, then what should be our thought? He said, we should think that my worshipful God has manifested Himself in a different way to attract different kinds of people. So, I am inspired.

I am touched to see how merciful God is in reaching out to different people. And I pray to that Lord who is so merciful that He bestow His mercy on me and make me attracted to Him more in the form in which I know Him. So, when we become spiritual more and more, we appreciate other spirituality more and more.

But that doesn't mean we give up our path. It's just like if I am sick and I become healthy, the important thing is that the medicine is not just something which is transitional. Medicine itself becomes the source of joy afterwards, initially the source of healing.

So, what is Bhava Aushadhi initially, it eventually becomes Manobhirama. It becomes the source of joy eventually. And that's how we practise constantly.

Clear? Yes. Hare Krishna. Prabhuji, we all know, most of us at least, that you are a great writer also and we have been writing so much to inspire the youth.

Would you like to share some of your own experiences that how a person should go, who wants to write himself, you know, if a devotee who is a writer, how should he write, how should he go about it and what is the impact of when you write on the society and how to, you know, get it published, you know, things about writing. So, all of us, you know, may go in that direction also because Srila Prabhupada wanted us to write. Okay.

So, I appreciate the question. At the same time, I feel that those who aspire to be writers will be in a microscopic minority over here. So, I will just answer it very briefly and I'm planning to do a writing course online, how devotees can write.

In the next two, three months, I'll be doing that. So, if you visit my site, you'll come to know about it. But briefly, writing is basically talking on paper.

It's not something which is mysterious, it is just talking on paper. So, especially with the interactivity that has come up because of the internet, that talking has become easier. That is good and bad also.

It is bad because anybody can talk anything and can go everywhere in the world. And there can be so much meaningless gossip that can spread. But it can be good because we can reach to people and we can get, we can share Krishna's message, we can have interaction much more easily.

So, I would say first point is to demystify writing. It is simply conversation on paper. Second point is that writing is much more difficult than a normal conversation because we can't see the people whom we are writing to.

So, therefore, whatever potential misunderstandings they may have, whatever doubts they may have, all those we have to anticipate, address and deal with. That's why it has to be done much more carefully. And as far as reaching out is concerned, as far as, so how to write, why to write, I have written a full article on my website, five reasons to write in devotional service.

It's called the acronym WRITE, W-R-I-T-E. WRITE, W is worship. We can worship Krishna with words we are writing.

R is reflection. We can contemplate and realise things better. I is introspection.

We can do it for our own inner search, for inner realisation. T is therapy. Our writing can help us to heal ourselves.

And E is explanation. We can explain Krishna's message to others. So, I won't go into all this in detail, but suffice it to say that it's a very powerful way in which we can reach out to a large number of people.

So, through my writing, I have connected with people all over the world. There are devotees, or potential devotees in Russia, in Australia, in America. You know, they write mails to me.

I answer their questions. They suggest topics for writing. So, I feel we can create a virtual community of spiritual seekers and we can serve them through writing.

So, Bhaktivinoda Thakur did that in his times. No, at that time there was no internet, but that time the printing press had just come. So, he actually had a whole community of devotees through his magazines.

So, every magazine article that he would write, that's how many people would be spiritually nourished. So, we can actually receive Krishna as we have received from our senior devotees and share it with others. And that's how we can utilise, utilise this writing in Krishna's service.

And writing is actually a very intense form of remembrance of Krishna. Because at that time, it's very difficult. As Prabhupada says in one lecture, in one letter to Satsvarupa Maharaj, that words are the best way to save us from forgetting Krishna.

Because when we have to write, we have to think very carefully about our words. So, he said, therefore, he said, in fact, he recommended all devotees to write. He said, one sentence, two sentences, write something, what you have realised about Krishna.

Writing a personal diary can help us to make, take stock of our spiritual advancement. Sometimes when we feel very irritated, very depressed, we want someone to share our heart with. If there is no one, we just write in a diary, to find our mind will calm down.

And then we can look back, okay, what did I write? Why did I feel like that? I got so disturbed at that time. There is no need to go so disturbed. So, for our own healing, as well as for sharing Krishna with others, writing can be a valuable tool.

Okay. Any other questions? Why is it that one religion conflicts completely with other religions with a path of devotion to God, like killing animals in name of God, befeating, etc. Actually, it is not that one religion conflicts another.

It is that, that which is contextual is mistaken to be universal. What is contextual means that which is told at a particular place at a particular time, if that is absolutised and made universal for everyone, then that is what leads to conflicts. So, if you see certain religions, they start developed in desert areas, where grains were not there.

So, that is why meat was allowed. In fact, meat was also recommended. But if we look deep within even those religions, for example, if we talk about Islam, you know, I have some friends who we have like an interfaith conference.

So, I have a Muslim friend who is a vegetarian. And he's written a full book about how there are so many references in the Quran, then in the subsequent writings of the Muslim scholars and saints that, you know, where it is possible, one should show compassion and avoid meat eating, be vegetarian. But what was told at that context at that particular time, it is absolutised.

Even as far as beef eating is concerned, it is not like absolute principle within that religion. It is, there are so many countries in the world, if you go to Malaysia, Indonesia, or even the Middle East, there are many places where there are no cows available. So, actually, most their people do not necessarily slaughter cows and eat beef.

So, is it that all the places all over the world where people are not killing cows, they cannot be Muslims? No, somehow there has been a lot of misleading and exploitation of people, along with, of course, misunderstanding of the root scripture, because of which religious propaganda, because of which communal feelings have been triggered. And if there is a calmer, saner discussion, these sort of misunderstandings can be resolved. So, there are definitely differences in religion.

Just as I said, there are differences between different therapies. It is Ayurveda, allopathy, but the important point is that their purpose is similar. And different religions may be less or more useful at different times in fulfilling their purpose.

So, as devotees, we focus on practising ourselves and sharing what we have got with others. And as we raise ourselves to a higher level of consciousness, we can help others also to see things from a higher perspective. And then we can avoid conflicts, play our part in avoiding conflicts.

Any other questions? Actually, it is with relation to this particular question, actually. So, as we know that there are different religions with different conception of their followings. So, can these religions, different religions can survive and exist in same premises? Actually, can different religions survive in the same premises? It depends on who is practising it and why they are practising it.

So, in every religion, there are narrow-minded people and there are broad-minded people. So, the important point is, it is not necessary also that all religions have to agree on everything. But it is important to recognise that there are truths which are valid and people have found them meaningful.

See, there are two extremes. Some people just demonise other religions, you know, all other religions are bad. And others try to romanticise, you know, all of us, will all religions stay happily together? You know, actually, there are so many other divisions.

You know, there is division based on race, there is division based on nationality, there is division based on state. So, there are so many divisions like that. And how often do people with all these divisions always live cordially? It is not necessary that they will live cordially.

So, we do not necessarily have to emphasise cordial living among different religious communities. What we should emphasise is spiritual living. So, the more people become spiritual, more they will be able to live cordially.

So, our focus, when Srila Prabhupada was asked about this, you know, he said that what we should focus on is on raising our own consciousness. And in principle, yes, if the different religious practitioners understand that our purpose is ultimately to love God, and God can offer himself in different ways, then it's possible for them to live cordially. But we shouldn't worry about what is not in our power.

What is in our power is to transform ourselves, to elevate ourselves and to share the method by which others can elevate themselves. So, if we can do that, then overall, we contribute to raising the consciousness of humanity. And there are three modes, there is, you know, there is goodness, there is passion, there is ignorance.

So, sattva guna, rajya guna, tamo guna. And when people are rajasic and tamasic, in the mode of passion and ignorance, they will fight whatever be the reason. The religious conflicts come in the highlight, but actually there are conflicts over everything.

If you see most of the World War I, World War II, it was not because of religion, territorial conflicts, power conflicts. So, as long as people are in the mode of passion and ignorance, they are going to fight. And as people come to the mode of goodness, the fighting will decrease.

So, rather than stressing the point that people with different religions live harmoniously, what should be stressed is, whatever religion people are practising, they practise in such a way that they rise to the higher modes. They rise to goodness, then there is possibility of living harmoniously. So, only when there is, Prabhupada would say that there is no use of crying for world peace without the awakening of Divine Consciousness in the individual.

Only when there is awakening of Divine Consciousness in the individual, then there is a possibility of world peace. So, we focus on awakening that Divine Consciousness in ourselves and in others to whatever capacity we have for sharing. Yes.

Hare Krishna Prabhuji. Prabhuji, I wanted to ask in today's time, how do we reach that spiritual state even after chanting? Because when we come to temple and we chant, we do feel something. But after going out of temple, mind again gets unstable and filled with anxiety.

So, how to deal with it? Yes. So, how do we stay spiritual when we go out of the temple to non-spiritual places? It's a process. Just like when we take medicines, we gradually become cured.

But cure is not an overnight process. It's a gradual process. So, wherever we go, we have to be careful what we are exposing ourselves to.

It's not that everything around us is totally materialistic. Even if you go to college or we go to workplace, we'll find that it's not that everybody is totally materialistic. There are some people who are maybe a little bit more in the mode of goodness.

They like some kind of regulated living. And there are others who will be totally materialistic. Some people will be atheistic.

So, wherever social circle we are in, we can make those choices that are relatively conducive for our spiritual life. It may not be directly, we'll have association of devotees everywhere. But we can choose those things which are least hostile to our spiritual life.

And that way we can protect ourselves. And importantly is that when we practise spirituality, we try to take spiritual impressions within us. We chant intensely, we study the scriptures intensely and understand those principles.

And as we understand them more and more, then wherever we go, we'll be able to carry that presence with us. It's a gradual thing. And we expect the growth to be sudden and rapid.

But it is a gradual growth. Simply the fact that we are asking this question, itself indicates that our values have changed, indicates that we are valuing spirituality and we are concerned about how we can protect our spirituality. This was not the case a few months ago or a few years ago.

That indicates a spiritual advancement in one sense. So, focus on trying to take wholehearted association and wholehearted Krishna conscious impressions while we are in spiritual environment. And then we have to go to material environment, then choose that sort of circumstance, that sort of friend circle, which is least anti-spiritual.

And that way we can continue in a spiritually healthy way. Yes. Hare Krishna Prabhu.

Being elections round in the corner, there are many political leaders who use religion for their vote bank politics. And also there are many spiritual leaders who sometimes come out in support of such political leaders. So, living in such a society, when we are pursuing Krishna consciousness, what is the best way to strive in such an environment, especially in the society like India, where there are so many people, even in Hindus or even in devotee circle, we may find some people who may be politically inclined with some leaders.

But as you said, the sole objective of spiritualism is to get connected with Krishna and religion is the purpose for that. So, how to, you know, concentrate on our spiritual activities more than getting infected with the political scenarios? Okay. So, when there is politically surcharge environment because of elections, should devotees get involved in it or how can we stay unaffected by it? Spirituality is not just about rejecting the world.

It is about connecting the world with Krishna also. So, at one level, we can say we are unconcerned about society. But at another level, we have to live in the society also.

So, if the society is governed by forces that are anti-spiritual, that is going to affect us adversely. So, if we can be a part we can contribute in some way towards creating a socio-political, socio-cultural environment that is less hostile to spirituality, that is more receptive to spirituality, then we can do our part. But that will vary with individual to individual.

Some devotees, if they already have a lot of interest in politics, and they had political aspirations, it's not that because they are devotees, they have to give it up. But they can consider that this is what I am doing. I'll try to do it in such a way that, okay, I'll see if there are certain political parties which are, we are not concerned with one party or another party, we are concerned with values.

So, if one party supports values that are more spiritual, another party supports values that are less spiritual, then our support will be for the values. And then accordingly, we can support a particular party or a particular set of values, and whichever party supports that values. But if some devotees feel, okay, this is never my interest, then there's no need for me to get interested in it.

So, the important thing is that we recognise that devotees are not just socially unconscious or socially oblivious of the social realities. There are countries in the world where there are governments which do not allow the practise of devotional service at all. So, there, you cannot be indifferent to the government.

If in India in the future, such a government comes up, it'll be difficult for us to practise also. So, we cannot say that, oh, we are not concerned with the government at all. There are many places where government is concerned about us.

In fact, when the communism was in its last days in USSR, so, the last head of KGB, he said that these Hare Krishnas, he said American music, American culture and Hare Krishnas, these are three threats to communism. So, they were concerned. So, we shouldn't have to be too worried about it.

But we are not unconcerned in the sense that we are irresponsible. So, it will depend on individual inclination, those who feel inspired that, okay, through politics, we can make a change, we can do that. So, Prabhupada was not averse to that.

But he said that it's not necessary for all devotees. In America and Australia, Prabhupada inspired devotees to start a political party. They called it In God We Trust Party.

And Prabhupada said that you talk about the principles of God Consciousness. So, he was not averse to that. But at the same time, it's not that he said, oh, devotees, there's no need to chant and dance, all of you start a political party and enter politics.

No, those devotees who already had that interest, they approached Prabhupada, Prabhupada said, yes, do it. So, bhakti is not about suppressing our own interests or our own natures, especially if they are not anti-devotional entirely. But it is not that we have to deliberately get involved when we had no interest in it.

So, if we have interest, don't tail that. Answer your question. In the era of mass deception, when most government political systems are endorsing atheism, and we are socially and culturally for God, and we are socially and culturally forced into materialism, then how do we focus on spirituality or religion? Actually, yes, this is the age of materialism.

But there is the relief which is provided by Krishna. This is Kali Yuga. Beyond whatever political, social, cultural situations are there, whatever media is there is Kali Yuga.

And Kali Yuga is the age of materialism. That's what the scriptures themselves tell. But as if there are rains, we may not be able to stop the rains, but we can have an umbrella.

And by that umbrella, we can protect ourselves. So, the process of bhakti yoga and especially the process of chanting of the holy names is like the umbrella which can protect us, by which we can protect ourselves. So, we focus not so much on what the world is doing.

You know, what is happening in the world is not as important as what is happening in our heart. So, if we are convinced that, yes, I want to practise spirituality, then no matter how difficult the circumstances, we can practise. And by our example, we can inspire others to practise.

Like I was telling about the Russian Soviet government opposing, there were devotees who were persecuted, who were tortured, who were physically maimed, mentally harassed, but still they kept practising devotee service. And this is not something which happened only in Russia. The Bhagavatam talks about it.

Prahlad Maharaj, you know, Hiranyakashipu was such a materialist, isn't it? And in fact, you know, he had not only control over the media, he had control over the universe. But even in that environment, Prahlad Maharaj was practising bhakti. And what happened? He inspired others to practise also.

So, we have to remember that beyond all our social realities is the spiritual reality of Krishna. And Krishna will never put us in a situation where we can't practise spiritual life. He will never make it impossible for us to practise spiritual life.

But it may not always be possible for us to practise spiritual life in the way we would like to practise. So, we'll have to find out. In different situations, we can practise in different ways.

Just as a river always moves towards the ocean, like that, we find out new ways to move towards Krishna. We improvise. And that is where the devotional creativity comes up.

How we can practise Krishna Consciousness in the material environment, in our particular environment, that each of us can use our individual creativity and find that out. And in fact, that can make our own devotional life also adventurous. It can make it exciting and fulfilling.

How, in my particular environment, how can I remember Krishna? How can I serve Krishna? Now, Yudhishthira Maharaj, he had to fight a war. And by fighting the war, he became the world emperor and then he glorified Krishna thereof. He did not think, oh, what do I get into the business of fighting a war and establishing and defeating so many people? I'll just be happy remembering Krishna.

He got involved, but through that he glorified Krishna. So, each of us, if we have the desire to glorify Krishna, Krishna will guide us. And we'll find out ways in which, even in situations where nobody seems to be interested, we'll find out some people are interested.

And then through that, not only will our spirituality be protected, but we will be able to share spirituality with so many other people. I'll conclude with just one story. Probably many of you know about it.

Some other preachers may have told about it. There was one devotee who was in a hostel. And he thought, oh, this hostel is filled with all materialistic people.

So, if I chant, people will laugh at me. So, every morning he would wake up and he would chant secretly under his blanket. And I was chanting under his blanket.

And then one day, he saw some suspicious movement on his room partner's bed. And he was wondering, what is this happening? And he observed first day, second day, third day. He saw that this person also seems to be awake.

And after several days, his curiosity got the better of him. He just went there and took off the blanket. And that person was also a devotee.

He was chanting secretly thinking this person will laugh at him. So, who knows, we don't have to assume the worst about others. We just practise the best that we can.

And Krishna will send us allies in whatever situation we are. Thank you very much. So, we would like to thank His Grace Chaitanya Chiranjeevi for taking out his valuable time, for spending on such an important topic.

I was just feeling that many of us were religious without being spiritual. Today, Prabhuji has balanced those who are spiritual and non-religious. So, both he has joined.

So, let us thank His Grace Chaitanya Chiranjeevi by loudly chanting, Kriva! Kriva! Kriva! So, next Prerna will be on June 21st.