Centering our life on Krishna – not on the intellectual, the psychological, the social or the cultural

Centering our life on Krishna – not on the intellectual, the psychological, the social or the cultural [Talk at Princeton, USA] Video

Thank you. So thank you for coming here today afternoon and for sharing that very entertaining introduction. So I'll speak today on the topic of what is there on this whiteboard.

So let us try to discover that. Let me turn this around. So the topic is, yeah, it is centering on Krishna.

Centering our life, centering our spiritual practises and centering ourselves on Krishna. And broadly, I'll take this in four parts. I may not cover all the four parts in detail, depending on how the discussion goes.

But these four parts are not discrete and they are not exhaustive. But they are indicative that we may start exploring spirituality and start coming toward Krishna from these four broad trajectories. We could say social.

Social means we live in a society which is getting increasingly fragmented. So one reason why people often turn towards spirituality is because they want a sense of community. So we want warmer relationships, a sense of belonging.

That could be one reason why we come towards spirituality and ultimately towards Krishna. Another could be intellectual, where we have questions about life. That what is the ultimate purpose of life? Why do we exist? So those questions might be what prompt us to maybe read the Bhagavad Gita, meet some spiritually minded people.

And that's what also brings us to Krishna. Then the third could be psychological. Psychological means that we might have a lot of stress and distress in our lives.

And that is one major reason nowadays why people are moving towards spirituality. If you look at the way the churches portrayed God about 100 years ago and how they portray it now, there's a difference. God was traditionally portrayed as the cosmic supplier.

Oh father, thou art in heaven. Hallowed be thy name. Give us our daily bread.

That is the idea. But now, especially in the Western world, people don't really have much anxiety about their daily bread. So if God is a supplier of daily bread, God becomes redundant.

So God has been, in most mainstream churches, rebranded as a cosmic healer, not a cosmic supplier. So you need healing. You're having stress, you're having emotional wounds.

And oh, you come to God, you'll be healed by that. So our own mental and psychological issues, we may want to deal with them and find spirituality a way to deal with it. So many people practise something so that they can feel peaceful, joyful.

And then lastly could be cultural. By cultural I mean that there are some practises that root us in life. It might be we brought up in a particular culture where say going to a temple or a church or a mosque or doing some kind of rituals, not using the word rituals in a negative sense.

The word ritual has acquired unfortunate negative connotation now. But there might be some practises, certain things which we feel connected with and we do those things. So now any of these can become the impetus for us to come toward Krishna.

And all of these are very useful. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says there are four kinds of people who come to him. He says in 7.16 in the Bhagavad Gita, the four kinds of people are those who are distressed, those who are distressed, those who are distressed and those who are distressed.

So almost everyone, of course, that is not the four categories that Krishna says. He says that that those who are distressed is one category. Then those who are inquisitive, those who are seekers of wealth and those who are seekers of knowledge.

So you could put them in roughly in these four categories. Today, major distress is psychological distress. There are other distresses out there, but most of the other distresses we feel we can solve by various technological and other means.

But this is quite difficult to solve. So that's distressed. Then generally, when you talk about people who are inquisitive, most of us are inquisitive more about people.

So if somebody is inquisitive, why do you do this? Why do you chant like this? Why do you do this practise? So you could say that social inquisitiveness gets us. That's one way. Another way could be cultural.

Normally, when people are in trouble, they can go to 100 sources. If they go to God, that's because in the culture, that's a practise. Maybe they saw their parents, grandparents, friends will go to a temple or a church or something to pray.

And that's great. And of course, there is the Gyan, the intellectual. There are four ways broadly in which we may start connecting with the spiritual path.

Now, the theme which I want to speak on is mainly that in each of these areas, we can have disturbances, earthquakes can occur. And say now, if we hear that an earthquake has occurred in New York City, okay, we'll be disturbed. Maybe our friends are there, our relatives are there.

But if an earthquake occurs right now over here in Princeton, that will disturb us much more. If an earthquake occurs right under where we are sitting, that would shake us up completely. So when the earthquake occurs, the more we are shaken by it indicates that that is where we are sitting.

That is where we are seated. So in our lives, when we get disturbed by something, if something disturbs us a lot, we can understand that why am I getting disturbed by this? Yes, of course, the thing is disturbing. But this is where my base is.

So if somebody has come primarily because of questions, and they find that, oh, so many of my questions are answered over here. And that's why they keep coming onwards. But then if they find something, which doesn't make sense to them, some questions that are not answered, they become very disturbed.

How can there be no questions answered? So and other people, they say, okay, you know, why bother? There's so many questions. If one question is not answered, what is the big deal? So when if this is our base, and this is where it is shaken, then we just can't bear it. I remember, I was primarily attracted to this way.

So when the first time I travelled with my spiritual, one of my spiritual teachers, we're going from Pune to Mumbai, it was a five hour, four and a half hours journey. So I sat next to him in the train and I was telling, can I ask some questions? He said, yeah, sure. And then I opened up, I had like five fullscape pages filled with questions.

So he looked at it, he said, all of these are questions. He thought a question in 10-15 minutes it would take. He's very kind to me.

We spent hours and hours discussing. But that was what attracted me very much. But then over maybe after a decade of practise, I found that when I was asking questions, there's many people, I was myself a teacher for some, but I was still a seeker with others.

And I found I couldn't find very satisfactory answers to those questions. In fact, I asked one, one of my, one of the persons whom I thought was a guide, I asked him that. I had a series of questions.

And his answer was that one who has faith, for them, all questions are answered. And you don't have that you have so many questions and answered means that you're lacking in faith. When I read that reply, I didn't reply, but I just felt this is simply intellectual cowardice masquerading as righteousness.

So I couldn't digest it. That was the time when you could say I had my crisis of faith. But then I met so if this is my basis, then I realised that I had to meet people who are like minded.

Most people are not particularly intellectual. Yes, everybody has intellectual side to that. But that may not be the base.

So for somebody for whom this was not the base, all my questions seem simply like irritating for them. Why do you have so many questions? So, but then I met like minded spiritual guide or spiritual friend spiritual guides. And then I found that they not only had my questions, but they had tougher questions than what I also had.

And they were all trying to navigate their way and find answers. But it's not necessary that they have to have conclusive answers. So then I started thinking, okay, if you have questions like this, which are not yet answered, then how are you continuing with your spiritual practises? So one of my guides told me that actually on the spiritual path, logic should be your minister, not your master.

A minister is one who King's takes advice from. And it's important minister may be wise, but logic cannot be your master. It's even in day to day life.

Do is everything that we do governed by logic? No. Now what to speak of our normal relationships, if you ask two people form a relationship with each other. So can you give me logical reasons why you're following this relationship? You can't, isn't it? You can't.

What to speak of even in what to speak of normal relationships, even if you go in something like science, we go to the fundamental levels in science. So if you can look at quantum physics, as a quantum physics, who said that if you think you understood quantum physics, that means you're not understood. It is so complicated.

I won't go into the technicalities, but we consider this to be like a solid object. But within quantum physics, there is no such thing as solids. There's only wave patterns.

When Einstein himself did not like this quantum physics, actually, he one of his most famous rebuttals to quantum physics, not exactly his criticism was, I would like to believe that even if I am not looking at the moon, it continues to exist. What's that? It's obvious, isn't it? Now, according to quantum physics, the moon is simply a, it's basically waveforms. And those waveforms collapse when there's a conscious observer looking at it.

And then an object appears to a perception. Now, this is, quantum physics is a very complicated subject. I don't claim to have understood myself.

So what I'm giving you is a very bare bones explanation. The simple point I'm making is that even in science, nobody operates purely on logic. So definitely, this doesn't mean it's illogical.

There are two, three things over there. There is illogical, there is logical, and there is translogical. Translogical is that there is a higher understanding where it is not below logical scrutiny, it is above logical scrutiny.

It makes sense, but not in our normal sense of logic. So this is basically, even Einstein said that most of my discoveries have not been made through my logic. It has been through my creativity, through my inspiration, through my intuition.

And he said the logical mind is the servant of the intuitive mind. So this is not to say that it's illogical, but the point is that if our spirituality is based only on this, the intellectual, then say, if I show a quake over here, now when the quake happens, if we are centred on any of these things, this is a quake happening. If that is our centre, we have a choice.

Oh, this is shaking. I came here for some stability, but this is shaking. So what do I do? Either I can move toward Krishna or I can move away from Krishna.

So when something shakes us, that indicates that we have not yet come to an unshakeable foundation. When something shakes us, we might be practising Krishna Bhakti. And ultimately, Krishna Bhakti does give us an unshakeable foundation.

So in the 6th chapter, 22nd verse, Krishna says that when you're situated at that level of consciousness, no distress will disturb you. He's not saying distress won't be there, but distress won't disturb you. So if we are being disturbed, that means right now we are not yet centred on that unchanging reality, on that unshakeable reality.

So if we are centred at the intellectual level, then when we get unanswered questions, then what will happen? We will get shaken. And that time we have to choose. So I was fortunate, I met like-minded spiritual teachers and friends, and they helped me move forward.

So there are many philosophical questions, which are, I like to call them as intellectual banana peels. When you step on a banana peel, it falls down. So there are some questions, if you try to get into them, you can't always get logical answers to them.

That doesn't mean there are no answers, but there are answers of a different category. Logic doesn't have a monopoly on human knowledge. So this is one aspect, that if we are centred on the intelligence, then if we are shaken, then if logic is our master, we'll be pulled away.

If logic is our minister, okay, this doesn't make sense. But my spirituality, my devotion, my bhakti is more important than logic. Not that logic is rejected, but logic is transcended.

And that's how we can come closer to that unshakeable centre, where we can have steadiness, where we can have peace, where we can have joy. So this is one example. Any comments, questions, reflections till now? So you mentioned when you found those like-minded friends and guides, I just want to understand clearly, it's not that, oh, now I've found people who have all these answers.

It's, if I'm understanding correctly, it's more, now I've found other people who are also wrestling with the complexity of the questions, but their wrestling with it is not necessarily taking them towards a place of losing faith. It's closer to Krishna. Yes, it's like the questions don't hold them hostage.

The questions don't hold their spirituality hostage. They're dealing with the questions, and they're honestly dealing with questions. Not that, oh, this is a pat answer to this question.

There are questions. This is a difficult questions. How do we answer this? And we all try to study, analyse, read, discuss, we try to come to answers that are reasonably satisfactory.

And maybe in future, a more satisfactory answer will be revealed. So yes, I would say that I have learned to now categorise questions into four broad categories. Those questions, you just find the right person, I'll get the answer.

Say, if somebody is, if I have some question about the history of bhakti, something doesn't make sense to me, then if I just have find someone who is sufficiently knowledgeable, they can answer that question. So second is, the first, second category is where those questions will require me to evolve spiritually. So why is that? Because things are pursued differently at different times.

One of the standard examples in the tradition is that, say, a five or 10 year old girl can't understand what is pregnancy. That doesn't mean she can never understand, but she has to grow up. So there's a particular time and particular questions to be answered.

So some questions, we need to evolve. And that's when we will be able to answer them. Some questions may require both, say, consultation and evolution.

And some questions may never be answered. Ultimately, humility in the intellectual domain means the willingness to acknowledge that I don't know. And maybe I can't know.

So that's how I, when I have difficult questions now, I try to place them properly and then deal with them appropriately. Yes, please. So in your diagram, are you saying that most people by their tendency will come to Krishna through one of these four paths or go away from Krishna by that same path? Yes.

See, whatever has brought us, whatever has brought us to Krishna, that remains to some extent our centre. And if that's where we are staying, then if some disturbance comes, then we may not be able to move onwards. But if, okay, this has brought me to Krishna, but Krishna is bigger than this.

You could say each of these is like a frame. So if you want to look at the sky, we, for a small child, you raise their hand, raise them. Can you see this tree over there? Can you see this trunk? Oh, can you see that branch? Can you see those two branches? Can you see the moon over there? The white object? Oh, can you see this whole sky? Child has no, may not have experience of looking up directly.

So we guide their vision upward. So basically like that, each of these is a frame by which we can direct our vision toward transcendence. But that transcendence transcends all frames.

So if we are stuck with the frame, then we miss the transcendence. That's why in the Bhakti path, it is said that Jnana, Jnana is knowledge, intelligence. It says Jnana can get one on the journey toward Krishna.

But ultimately, one has to give up Jnana to go toward Krishna. That doesn't mean we become ignorant. It will recognise the limit of knowledge, and we go beyond that.

Yeah. So you mentioned like the stress factor, right? Yeah, right. Where would you place the going towards Krishna just by the fact of awareness? Because as a kid, and I can put myself as an example, right? As a kid, I think my connection with Krishna was a lot more cultural.

They took me to the temple every Sunday. You know, you have to put your hands together, pray, you have to say a certain verse, and that gets you closer to him. Right? But through my life experiences, I have moved away from that to saying, I have a connection with the super entity.

That's true. Like when I see the dialogue, I don't know where I would place myself. I think what we will put here with Krishna is experiential.

All of us are meant to get some experience of transcendence. So the intellectual is meant to take her toward the experiential. The social is meant, all of these are meant to take us toward the experiential.

In the Bhagavad Gita, 9th chapter, second verse, Krishna says that, that this higher reality can be pursued through experience. So experience means, say, some of you mentioned that you went to Vrindavan, or you came and practised some yoga, and then you wanted to talk about Bhakti Yoga. So we all get some experience.

And that experience is for us the foundation. But when I talk about psychological, I don't come to that. See, our experiences can sometimes be a little deceptive.

I would say if we just consider our experience to be our present moods, then we can be deceived by it. But all of us have some sublime experiences. And those experiences give us a strong conviction.

And there are two stages, there is Shraddha and there is Nishtha. Shraddha is initial faith that maybe something exists out there. Nishtha is realised or experienced faith.

And the example given in the tradition is that Shraddha is like a banana tree. If some elephant or some predator comes, they can just shake it. But Nishtha is like a banyan tree.

Nothing can shake it. And it is through experience, through purification, through committed practise, through various of these pathways, you can move from that Shraddha to Nishtha. So if you got Nishtha, then that means to a significant extent, we are centred on Krishna.

If let's say we're stable on one side, it sounds like we should get stable from all the angles, ultimately, right? Should we get stable from all the angles? Not necessarily. I would say, as I said in the beginning, this is not entirely discrete. Say, for example, if I like to say intellectual, maybe intellectual is a different category, say cultural, social, psychological, you could put all of them quite close.

Now, I go to a temple or a church or some holy place, I feel good over there. Now, what makes me feel good over there? It could just be the vibes of the place. It could be that the people over there are so warm and gentle and cultured.

So if it's people, then you could put in the social one. If it's just the vibes of the place, then maybe my mind is so distressed, and I go there and I feel good. Or I go there and do something.

Maybe I sit and meditate, I do some kirtan, I go in front of the image and pray. And that makes me feel good. So then you could put in culture.

So these are not exactly that discrete. The idea is that these are four broad patterns of ways. The important thing is we need to be centred on Krishna.

So if it's one, that's fine. If it's two, three, that's also fine. The important thing is we centre on Krishna.

Any other questions, comments? Or socially, somebody says, you know, this is not the place for me. I shouldn't be at this place. I don't like these people.

I'm going to go somewhere else. Or even some psychological upheaval we're drawing out. As opposed to sort of just bursting apart for all those reasons.

It seems to me that it makes sense that more discrete driving away from that place. Yeah, exactly. So whatever is our current shelter, it should link us with the supreme shelter.

But if the current shelter becomes our substitute for the supreme shelter, then when the current shelter is challenged, then we may just give it up completely. We can go toward the supreme shelter or we can go away from the supreme shelter. So these are not in that sense in any way bad.

Because this is who we are. All of us are social creatures. But some of us may be more extrovert than introvert.

Some of us really need to be with people constantly. When we have trouble, some people deal with trouble by being alone. Let me think things through.

Some people deal with trouble by talking with others. I want someone to unburden my heart. So then depending on who we are, one particular approach will work best for us.

Yeah. You make sure my understanding is clear. Yeah.

If a person is experiencing a weakness or a deficit in one of the areas, let's say they're not having a positive experience going to the temple, so their social area is lacking, or they don't feel comfortable around a group of people in the congregation or what it might be. But they're also weak intellectually. Let's say they're not reading the books or something.

Would it be in their best interest to try maybe one of the other three approaches to get stronger intellectually or culturally, rather than to just lose everything and not even have a grasp on any one of the areas, and to risk losing the Krishna consciousness altogether? Could it get that bad that somebody says, well, I don't really feel anything in any of these four areas. What should I do? My connection to Krishna is completely leaving me. What would you suggest to someone in that case? Where to find that foothold to grab onto? Yeah, it's a good question.

I mean, I'm also developing my thoughts as we're going through discussion. So now, since you bring this up, it was, as I said, my questions were intellectual. But it was not just the intellectual that solved it.

It was also the social. I found a social circle where having doubts was not considered a sign of, was not seen as a deficiency in faith. So in that sense, what helped me to go through was not just the finding intellectual answers, but also social circles.

I would say that at our level, the operational principle has to be what Rupa Goswami says, somehow or the other fix the mind on Krishna. So we had to find out what connection works for us. And to some extent, the world is a place of illusion.

And when the forces of illusion attack us, we can't go with a formula as a plan. Can't do this, this, this, this. No, we have to find out what works.

So we can broadly know our strengths and our weaknesses. But yes, sometimes it might be, even if somebody is very intellectual, I was talking with one friend who is very far, far more intellectual than me, super brain. But he told me that when he just gets completely fed up, he says, what I do is I go and just sit in front of a Tulsi plant and just sing songs, sing verses, sing songs.

And that calms me down. So it's not necessary that if we are on one, we have the solution also has to come to that one. We'll find out whatever works for us.

So in that sense, we have to be pragmatic. Not just stuck to one track, but whichever track works. And if somebody has come to a place where nothing seems to be working, that nothing seems to be connecting us with Krishna, then that's the time when we just have to be patient.

Because more often than not, that is just a dark phase we are going through. So when we go through the dark phase, it might be that at that time, nothing seems to make sense. Nothing feels good.

Nothing gives a connection. But it's a phase. It's a phase and get over.

So when we are there, it can seem like a dungeon. But it's not a dungeon. It's a tunnel.

And it's a tunnel. And if you keep walking, the tunnel will end. Part to that question.

Yeah. Well, first, the comment. The comment, speaking from personal experience, is when I'm in that dark place, I try to centre on my faith and just know that even if I run away from Krishna, he runs after me and grabs hold of me and embraces me.

Even if I'm pushing and pushing and pushing and kicking and screaming. By now, I think in my years of experience in this, I know that he's got a hold of me and he's not letting me go. And that's my security blanket.

So that was my comment. That's good. The second part of my question is, the solution that you provided is a very good one indeed.

But how to sort of delve into that solution? And it may require being alone, away from people, distancing yourself from people. How do you do that without creating offence? Without offending anybody? How do you do that staying humble and without offending your peers, your members of the community, members of the congregation, your friends who might think that, you know, they've done something to hurt you or to offend you? Okay, yeah. It can be so easy for misunderstandings to occur.

After all, we're all human in the material world. And, you know, feelings are up when things happen. And people very easily get offended or misunderstand.

So how to not only remain centred and take some time out, maybe to find what works for us without offending someone else? In the two, three different things, how do we get that space for ourselves? So first is that if there are at least one or two people with whom we can open our heart, then they can act as a buffer between us and the rest of the world. So it's very difficult for us to explain ourselves to many people. And so if we need space, if we have that one person who appreciates our need for space, they say, okay, they need some time now.

They need some time and give them some time. Then if we keep saying it, people say, oh, is something wrong? Can I help you? Many times people think that a request for space is a disguised request for help. Now, in some cases it can be.

Sometimes it is, we have to read people properly. Sometimes somebody says, leave me alone. They actually went, don't leave me alone.

So we have to find out. But so if there's somebody who is okay, but we just need some space. So if we have that one person also that will help us.

Then the second thing is that if we are a part of a community, then within that community also, there are certain things which are considered important. Say if you are a member in a good standing, then there are certain things you should be doing. Now, we could say that a spiritual community can be completely consuming.

There are enough engagements for the rest of our life 24 by 7. That's true. But there are certain occasions, certain times which are very important. So if we are, if we just are visible at those times, then people don't feel that we are like a drop out of the planet.

So we may not be as engaged, but we are completely disengaged. Then that raises questions. So everybody has their needs and their priorities.

So that would be the second thing. So that instead of being completely invisible, now have visibility at least at certain things which are considered important. And the last thing would be that we have to develop a thick skin.

That people, in a sense, whatever we do, there will always be some people who will criticise. So spiritual life is, you could say, it's ultimately about developing a tender heart. But intermediately to cover that tender heart with a thick skin.

So, okay. Thank you. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes, definitely.

That's why spirituality cannot be made into an algorithm. You cannot have a programme. Put this, this, this, feed these parameters.

This is the result. It has to be individualised. And that requires discernment.

Thank you. Any other comments? So, if we move on to one more part, how much time do we have? And accordingly, I can decide how much to take. So, it's 2.37 right now, so maybe we can go till 4. Okay, fine.

So, I'll try to link these to the social and the psychological part. I'll take that. One major reason why we connect with spirituality is because we want a sense of community.

In the past, people had joint families, whether it was the East or the West. Now, then we had nuclear families. Now, even that nucleus, there's a fission.

And we have electrons and protons orbiting around in the concrete jungles. Now, we have unclear families. One clear? Unclear.

Unclear. Okay, nuclear and unclear. Okay, that's good.

Nuclear families. So, we all want a sense of connectedness, sense of belonging. And that is what we do get when we come among spiritual people.

However, even in spiritual circles, there are different kinds of people. Not only different kinds of people, the same people also go through different phases in their own lives. It's said there are two kinds of people.

Some people bring happiness wherever they go. And some people bring happiness whenever they go. So, now, when this happens, actually, it's, and curiously, it might be the same person, maybe a few years ago, when we see them, they're so happy.

And then afterward, we see them, we feel as if we are walking into a minefield now. We become tense. So, people change, we change, situations change.

Because of that, the same social circle, which provided us some shelter and strength and support, that might seem to take it away. Or that might itself seem to be the cause of the social disruption. The same circle which gave us support.

Now, when this happens, at that time, we have a choice. The choice is that we either see that, okay, these people are supposed to be spiritual. And they're doing like this.

They talk like this. They behave like this. This spiritual stuff doesn't work.

And we just give it up continuously. Give it up completely. And that's an understandable reaction.

But the problem with that is that we are reducing spirituality to human actions. Whereas spirituality is bigger than human actions. Of course, spirituality is manifested through human actions also.

But the spiritual, it transcends all our categories. So, sometimes we may have some, even some spiritual guides, some spiritual friends, some spiritual mentor. And they may inspire us.

But sometimes it may happen that, you know, they may let us down. Or we feel let down even if they have not let us down. These things can happen.

When this happens, I have to see that my spirituality has to be not reduced to any one thing in this world. We may have one path which we follow. But even in that one path, there can be many channels.

It's one of the standard examples for spiritual journey or spiritual growth, given the bhakti tradition is of a river moving toward the ocean. The Ganga, for example, moving towards the Sagar. So, now when the river is moving toward the ocean, at that time, the river may have a normal bed.

Along the bed, it's moving, it's moving. But sometimes that bed may get blocked. Somebody might come and build a dam over there.

And the dam is built over there, then the river cannot move forward any further. So, when that happens, that's when the river, what does it do? It doesn't just stop, it branches out, it finds some tributaries, it keeps moving on. Sometimes it might just keep moving over there and may eventually erode the dam also.

But that may take some time. So, it branches out and finds a way ahead. So, many people, like you mentioned, they are spiritual but not religious.

I have a whole talk on this topic. But what essentially it is, when most of us say spiritual but not religious, the idea is that I don't want any institutionalised religion. I don't want dogmas.

I don't want narrow mindedness. I don't want intolerance in the name of religion. That's what we're talking about.

So, that's perfectly understandable. So, how it is that you could say a particular organised path, at its essence, what it is, what is it? It is like the bed for the river to move. When the water keeps moving continuously along a path, what does it do? It creates a bed for itself.

And then in the bed, it can move forward faster, smoother. So, similarly, at its core, when we say there's a religious institution, what is that? It is, I won't go into the terminology of religious and spiritual here. Whenever, at its core, what is it? A group of people who want to flow toward transcendence.

They come together and they create the infrastructure. They create the resources by which they can practise smoothly. So, we could say, to develop this metaphor further, each of us is not a river.

Each of us is like a trickle. And when many trickles come together, then a river is formed. And for a trickle to reach from the mountain down to the ocean is quite difficult.

But there are many small, small trickles come together. They become a river. Then it can move forward faster.

So, the river bed is like the organisation. And the river itself is the spirituality. So, the flow is what is more important.

But sometimes what happens after, wherever a bed is created, when this water is flowing on its own, it may not be that noticeable. But when there is a big river, there is a nice bed through which the water river is going, it catches attention. And when it catches attention, then people who don't want to go to the ocean, they come there and they use that water for their own purposes.

They start misappropriating it. So, whenever in a group of people who want to pursue something higher in their lives, they come together, they form some structure. And in that structure, they try to collectively move forward.

But that structure itself attracts some people who are not interested in spirituality. They are interested primarily in the power, the prestige, the position that is associated with religion. And when they come with that purpose, they can block the flow.

I think it was Mark Twain or was it Oscar Wilde, one of them said that, if Jesus came back today, one thing he would not be is a Christian. Now, of course, any kind of satirical statement like this are very general. And this is not to say that there are no genuine Christians today.

But yes, it does happen that many people, they just get caught in the structures and the purpose may be lost. So, it has definitely happened and it is not just because of religion. It happens in every area of life.

If tomorrow, we woke up and all of us, all that divided us was eliminated. All of us tomorrow morning, we are born in this same race, same colour, same gender, same nationality, same religion, same philosophy. By tomorrow afternoon, we would have created differences and started fighting.

So, it's just the nature of humanity that we will, that inevitably differences will come up and that can lead to fanaticism. So, the social aspect and the psychological aspect, I'm connecting them together right now. So, the social aspect is where there's an infrastructure.

People come, they want a community, but to have the community, they create an infrastructure, an organisation. But that attracts power hungry people. And then when this power hungry people come up, then they block the forward movement.

When that happens, some people just get alienated. I don't want to belong to this community. I don't want to have anything to do with this path itself.

So, when this happens, the narrow mindedness or fanaticism, it is, every religious tradition can have some statements, which may seem fanatical. And I'll give this as a concluding metaphor. And then we can have a few questions if you want.

So, basically, to change the metaphor from the flow of the river, we could take climbing up a mountain. So, the bottom of the mountain is material consciousness. The top of the mountain is spiritual consciousness.

And there can be different paths up the top, from the bottom to the top. So, these different paths are like the different spiritual traditions, which are meant to help us move up. Now, in every tradition, there are some statements which are exclusivist.

This is the only way. And those statements have to be seen in context. It's like, say, a patient has come to a doctor, and the doctor starts prescribing something, diagnosing something and prescribing something.

And the patient starts saying that, Oh, but doctor, I went to this doctor, and the doctor said that, and I read this book, and that book says this. And I googled and I found this. And the doctors will say, just forget everything.

Take what I'm telling you, do what I'm telling you, you'll get cured. Now, when the doctor says, forget everything that you have read, forget everything else. That is not absolute rejection of all other knowledge.

It is a contextual emphasis to follow what is being told. So every tradition has statements like this. Just forget everything else, follow this.

Now, if these are made into absolute truths, then that becomes fanatical. So, if somebody just going round and round at the bottom of the mountain, this path, this path, this path, just forget it, climb up now. That doesn't mean that all the other paths are false.

You have to commit to one path to climb up. So forget everything. So exclusive statements are to be taken in that sense.

They're meant to create focus. They're not meant as a rejection of everything else. But some people, they take it as a rejection of everything else.

If you're not following my path, you're going to go to hell. Not only are you going to go to hell, I'll help you get there faster. So it's like, instead of climbing up the mountain, instead of climbing up the mountain, they keep going round and round, pulling others down from the mountain.

Don't climb up, don't climb up there, that's wrong, that's wrong. So, this kind of narrow-mindedness can alienate a lot of people. And when we encounter a block like this, that, say, we came for a community, but then we find people who are maybe very selfish, very insensitive, very judgemental, very, you know, not the kind of people we would like to be with.

At that time, what do we do? We understand that it's like with the river, not everybody who's at the river is there to go to the ocean. There might be some who might be there for some other purpose entirely. No, we can't look into anybody's heart.

So, we don't necessarily, we may say that they are judgemental, we don't have to become judgemental about them. So, we don't know, but this is not what gels with me. So, we keep a distance and we find a way forward.

We find a way forward. So, we again look for like-minded people. If it's not in immediately that community, we look for some other community.

We look for even one person like-minded and if the one trickle also can start moving, that trickle will grow. So, the important thing is that we move for, we stay fixed in our purpose. So, sometimes the social group which helped us grow may eventually stop our growth.

That's not necessarily a problem with that social group. It could be, it could be just be incompatibility, the way they think, the way we think is not the same. Then we find out a social group where we can move on.

So, if we understand that, okay, these people supposed to be spiritual. Why are they behaving like this? Then rather than asking that question, you can say, okay, you could change the question and ask that I am spiritual. Do I always behave like a spiritual person? Everybody goes through phases in their life and rather than reducing spirituality to the behaviour of certain people, we look, are there some people even now on the spiritual path whom I am attracted to, who I feel inspired by? Let me take them as my example and let me move on.

If we do that, we will always find some inspiration, some guidance, some path ahead and eventually we will come to these two aspects in our spiritual life. There is transcending the world and there is transforming the world. So, that means now in each of these, when we see something wrong, say, sometimes we find that even those who are spiritual people, they are very insensitive.

And psychologically, people do not care for each other's emotions, just become a little judgemental. So, now to some extent, we transcend it. This is how it is, but my focus is on moving toward Krishna.

But it is not just transcending. The one part of it is transcending, the other part of it is transforming. That means, can I become an agent of change? If people are insensitive, people are judgemental, if people are completely non-intellectual, people give pat answers to questions, then can I find deeper answers? Can I give those deeper answers? So, if there is an earthquake over here, then we treat as much as we can, we try to provide relief for ourselves, for others.

But along with that, so that is transforming over here, but we also move forward, that is transcending. So, sometimes there is very little in our control and we just have to transcend the situation. This I can do nothing about it, let me just move ahead from this.

But sometimes when the situation is disturbing, we can transform it. If we have the initiative, if we have the position, if we have the stature, if we have the zeal, then we can transform also. And then if we can take the responsibility to transform, then we can become aides for others to navigate through that path.

So, the challenges which we faced, when others face it, let them go through it. So, the same, let's say, I'll conclude, there's the same devotee or same spiritual guide of mine who said that, you know, because you have doubts, so you have so many questions. Now, he's also quite a prominent spiritual teacher.

Now, he, whenever people ask him difficult questions, he sends them to me. Just you answer their questions. So, he is also, so it was not that he had any problem with me.

It is not that he had a problem with those questions also. He just felt that, why are you burdening me with this? So, understand that the people may have questions and somebody needs to be there as a resource to answer those questions. So, that's how we can, in our small way, create a way for people to navigate the pitfalls that we have faced in our spiritual journey.

So, I'll summarise quickly what I spoke. So, I spoke on this topic of centering on Krishna in our spiritual life, in our life at large. I started by talking about, we all come to Krishna because of various reasons.

It might be social, intellectual, psychological or cultural. Might come for a sense of belonging, answers to questions or because we are having a lot of mental issues or because we want some cultural connects. So, now each of these is very valuable but each of these can become our centre.

And if I centred over there, when a quake occurs, either that quake will throw us away from Krishna or push us toward Krishna. If we have equated spirituality with these things only, if you have reduced Krishna to, okay, answers to all questions. If you have reduced Krishna to very sweet loving dealings among people, then if we have reduced Krishna to a peaceful atmosphere, then when that is not there, we will think, what is this? Where is Krishna? So, that is an opportunity for us to move more toward the essence of Krishna.

So, I talked about my faith crisis when I had questions. It was the answers to questions that brought me toward Krishna. But after some time, the kind of questions that I had, my spiritual guides didn't have those answers.

So, at that time, fortunately, I got like-minded people who honestly were wrestling with the question which I was having and that gave me breathing space to keep moving on. So, logic is meant to be our minister, not our master. There is illogical, there is logical and there is translogical.

So, the infinite, the transcendence cannot be reduced simply to logic. We talk in relationships also, everything is not logical. Even in science, everything is not logical.

The intuitive mind plays as much role as or if not more than logical mind. So, same way, with respect to other aspects of our life, we talked about the social aspect, that we come to spirituality because we get warmth and connectedness in a community. But then sometimes, everybody there may not be like that.

So, give the example of the community coming together and forming an organisation, that's like a trickle moving continuously and forming a riverbed. But that riverbed may attract others who just want the water for themselves and not to go toward the ocean. So, there are some people with vested interests may come up and then the organisation may become an obstacle instead of a path towards the ocean.

Then we have to find our way and keep moving on. And let's give the example of a mountain climbing up. So, narrow-mindedness, we say that we want to be spiritual but not religious.

The idea is that we don't want to be narrow-minded, intolerant. So, there can be different paths up the mountain. But at the same time, we have to commit to one path and not pull others down from their path.

So, statements of exclusive import, which are there in certain traditions, they are meant to create focus, not declare rejection of or condemnation of all other paths. A doctor telling a patient, just forget everything else, take this medicine. So, when we have this context, then even if we find ourselves blocked at a particular point, we'll find a path and move on.

And for us, when we have some quake happening where our shelter is and we feel disturbed by that, we have two components, transcending and transforming. So, we just move beyond it, connect with Krishna by our experience of Krishna. His experiential faith is like a banyan tree.

The preliminary faith is more like a banana tree. So, through all of these, we are meant to move forward, get experience. So, we transcend by our experience of Krishna and then we transform so that we can help others navigate the quakes when they come in their life and thus smoothen their journey further.

Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. So, I really thank you.

That was a fabulous, very refreshing talk. I appreciated quite a few points. One point that struck me when you talked about, you know, the little girl may not understand what pregnancy means, but it doesn't mean eventually she won't understand.

And so, sometimes I feel that there might be a point in bhakti that I'm not understanding. But, you know, finding the patience to like either ask my spiritual teacher and guides or read Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita regularly to try and find the answers means that eventually I will come to that. I wonder if you can maybe speak about, you know, it's great to have a bunch of questions, but sometimes we can, you know, at work, especially I work in corporate life.

So, you know, we have this phrase like paralysis by analysis. Yeah. You don't want to do that, right? You don't want to tangle yourself up so badly because you're constantly questioning yourself and going around in circles.

So that you actually miss the goal of moving towards it. Can you speak about that please? Yeah, tying ourselves up in questions of paralysis by analysis. How do we avoid that? It depends on individual to individual.

For some people, they may have paralysis because they are not able to do analysis also. I want to analyse. I want to understand.

If this doesn't make sense, I can't move forward. But for some people, it could be the opposite. So everyone has their particular need.

So for some people, you say, don't think so much. But it's not that I'm choosing to think, my thoughts are just going over there in that direction. So I was in DC last week.

So one person asked a question after that programme. It is a quite, you could say, volatile question. This gentleman is asking, is it that women have a very long memory? He said that I did something in 77 and my wife still remembers that.

I did not do something and she still remembers and complains about that. I told her forget it. So then I told her that I don't remember the answer to this question.

But basically, the point I made over there is that all of us, you say, in our relationships, we almost, you can say, we deal in different currencies. So if you give me some valuable product and I give you an INR, Indian Rupees, and you have no idea what INR is, you would say you're not giving me anything. And I say I've given you so much, why are you not appreciating? So what happens in different relationships, different people consider different things important.

There were some people, just quality time is important. Just sit and talk and discuss things. For some people, it might be you keep your word.

So you do this, you'll do it. You don't do it, they feel very disturbed. For some people, it might be that you give gifts on special occasions, whatever it is.

So, you know, generally, people trade in different currencies. So now, if we want to understand which currency who is trading in, one simple way is to understand what they appreciate the most if we do it, and what they complain the most about if we don't do it. So we may do a hundred, like a child, a father may work very hard and get the most expensive cricket bat and cricket ball and for the kid to play.

But the child may not want the expensive bat, the child may just want, Dad, you play with me. And he says, I'm tired, I don't have time. Then the child will feel completely unloved.

And the father may say, I've been doing so much for you. How can you feel unloved? So they're trading in different currencies. So I would say the same principle applies with this also, that for some people, analysis is the currency they're trading.

And if you tell them, don't analyse, then it's like, what do you mean? You're making me poverty stricken. You're leaving me with nothing. So we can't really say that don't analyse.

But what we could say is that even people who are analytical, they start understanding when their analysis is taking them forward and when it is not taking them forward. So if the analysis is not taking them forward, then it's best not to say that I will not analyse, but to suspend it for some time. Because the brain is also like a machine.

Say, if we've been working on a computer for a long time, the computer heats up. It needs to be shut down for some time. Then it can start working better.

So you could say that just continuously thinking about it may not help. So instead of saying, don't analyse this anymore, maybe just decide to have some quality time for analysis. Instead of constantly thinking about it and letting it weigh you down, just decide that, okay, this is an important question.

Maybe once a day, once a week, sit down for some time and see if you're getting some French insights or whatever thoughts you've come, put them together and see what things are moving forward. So rather than stopping analysis, we could say, we could give a quota for analysis. You have to do this, but do it during this time.

And then that way, that can be more productive. Because just overthinking, it's like, say, if you consider a problem versus time, if we don't think about the problem at all, we will be impulsive. So when we think about a problem, we say the clarity starts increasing.

Okay, what should I do? Should I do this, do this? The more we think about it, the clarity increases. But that's only up to a particular point. After that, that graph becomes solid.

It just becomes flat. And after that, it starts going down. The more we think about it, the more we become confused.

Some people say, I was confused earlier. Now, I'm not so sure. So I'm confused whether I'm confused.

It can become like that. So basically, if we ourselves can see that thinking, it is taking you some clarity, but after that, it's not giving clarity, then regulate it. I mean, have some time for doing it, but don't let it constantly burden the mind.

And then it's best to try to have, to connect with somebody who is analytical. Then what happens? See, for some people, it is analysis that stimulates them, even if they don't get an answer by the analysis. For some people, analysis is a tool to a solution.

But for some people, just they love to think. And you tell them, stop thinking, this becomes too much for them. So then if they have two analytical people, the two of them can keep analysing, stimulating each other.

Even if they don't get an answer, at least they get some stimulation. So that can also work. It's like in a negative sense, what happens? I used to wonder if there's a judgemental person, it's very difficult for them to become friends with anyone else, because they keep judging everyone else.

But what happens if two judgemental people come together? Isn't it? Actually, they become very good friends, because they don't judge each other, they judge the world together. So that's unhealthy, but the point is that it's a… Analysis also works like that, that two analytical people, even if they don't come to a solution, just they get different kinds of analysis, that itself gives them some stimulation that I'm doing something. And they can move on.

But we have to ourselves see whether it's becoming unproductive or counterproductive and check it. Okay. So, thank you very much.

Hare Krishna.