Demons in krishna-lila 3 – Trinavarta – Giving up useless argumentation
Hare Krishna. So, we continue our discussion on the Deemers in Krishna Leela.
And today, I will focus on Trnavarta. So, as Krishna grew up, he started becoming more active. Krishna is the Supreme Lord, but while he is in this world, he acts just the way that is required for the intensification of the reciprocation of love between him and his devotees.
So, in the Anand Vrindavan Champu, Kavi Karnapur describes that there are different forms of Krishna which are suited for different rasas. So, he says the Balarupa is the Vatsalya Rasa Vigraha. That is in the child form, baby form, that is when the parental love is most intensely felt.
Similarly, when he becomes Kumar, the Kumar Rupa is suited for the Sakya Rasa, the Sakya Rasa Vigraha. So, in this case, the Demons, when they come, we will see that the most intense trauma, anxiety, horror is experienced by Yashodamayi especially. So, in this case, Yashodamayi, she was just taking care of Krishna, Krishna was still a small baby, she picked him up on her lap, she fed him, and after he ate mother's milk, he just went to sleep.
And as he was sleeping, suddenly mother Yashoda felt that he has become very heavy. So, what has happened? How did my child become so heavy? And she had a, she had a like a crutch for keeping Krishna, but she did not keep him there. Somehow at a subconscious level, she thought that Krishna is so heavy that crutch will also not be able to hold him.
So, she put him on the ground. And actually, Krishna, he is Trikalavgyan, he knows past, present and future. Vedaham samatitani vartamanani cha arjuna, bhavishyani cha bhutani mamato vedana kashyana.
Krishna says, I know past, present and future, but me no one knows. So, this means that Krishna knew that Trunavart is going to come. And Krishna wanted that even if this demon comes, the demon should cause the least damage.
So, he first of all made himself heavy by which mother Yashoda would not be carrying him. Because when the demon comes, the demons are ruthless, they don't care for anything. Krishna will protect himself.
But if the storm comes forcefully, the storm may knock down Yashoda also. The storm may hurt her also. If the demon is out there to attack, the demon will actually be ruthless.
Sometimes when wars happen, the technical, the euphemistic term that they use is collateral damage. That means we wanted to kill this person, we want to destroy this building, but the bomb went and fell on that building. So, incidental damage.
That's not what we wanted to destroy, but that's the word we use for that. So, sometimes when brutal invaders come, they just don't care who all they are destroying. They just want to get to their target and anybody who comes in the way, they just indiscriminately attack and destroy them.
So, Krishna knew that Trunavart was going to come for him. But Krishna did not want any collateral damage in Vrindavan. So, he made himself so heavy that mother Yashoda put him down.
And again mother Yashoda put him on the ground. Actually, at that time she had come to the courtyard. Because children, they are all day at home.
Even if they are small babies, they like to come out. They like to see the sky, the birds. Even if they don't understand all these things, but they just like to be out in nature.
So, at that time Krishna had come out to the courtyard and in that courtyard mother Yashoda had fed him and she was sitting. So, she put him on the ground. And as she put him on the ground, she just looked around for a few moments to make sure that everything in the house was good.
At that moment, within a matter of few moments, suddenly a huge storm came there. Sometimes there are flash floods that come. At one moment, the whole weather is normal, there is no water anywhere.
At another moment, suddenly a flash flood comes. And if people are caught in that, they just get swept away. So, nowadays we have weather forecast.
And by that often calamities can be, the natural calamities may come, but the calamities, consequences of those calamities can be decreased. If people are prepared and people retreat to safer zones. So, now we can use technology, we can use meteorological science to try to make some forecast of how the weather is going to be.
But Krishna, he is the ultimate forecaster. So, they did not in Vrindavan need any kind of forecast because Krishna knew. So, Krishna prepared.
Krishna arranged that he was outside. And then when Trnavart came, this came like a huge storm. It's like there are flash floods, we could say this was a flash storm.
And zooming gust of wind just came knocking everything out of the way. And everybody became blinded. Normally, the atmosphere around us is, we could say, transparent.
Right now in between us there is air, there are so many gases and other substances, but they are transparent. Even there are some dust particles, they are so rarefied that they don't obstruct our vision. But sometimes say fog or mist may come, that may obstruct our vision.
But sometimes when a storm comes, the sheer speed of the storm is so great that many things happen. One is that storm raises the dust from the ground. And as the dust gets raised from the ground, then it's like a wall of mist that is created around us.
A wall of mud that is created around us, temporarily. We just can't see anything. Another is that when this kind of storm comes, it's so fierce that involuntarily also our eyes get closed.
We have various senses and some of the senses, they are under our voluntary control. Some of them are not in our voluntary control. So, if somebody hits us near the eyes, or just brings their fist near our eyes, immediately our eyes get closed.
That's just a natural defence mechanism. So, when storms come, at that time our eyes get involuntarily closed also. And thirdly, in this case, when Dronavarth came, he not only raised so much dust, but he created scary noise.
When the wind comes, because the wind is moving so fast and knocking everything along its way, knocking you down, it just creates a thunderous sound. So, at one moment the weather seemed to be normal and at another moment you saw the storm coming straight from the sky. It just zoomed through Vrindavan.
Now, as it was just racing through Vrindavan, Krishna, by making himself accessible, by keeping himself in the courtyard, what happened? Krishna allowed Dronavarth to do his work as quickly as possible. If Krishna had been inside the house, Dronavarth would have been in Vrindavan and the more he would have been in Vrindavan, the more damage he would have caused in Vrindavan. But in this case, Krishna just allowed him, okay, what do you want to do? You want to take me? Just take me.
So, Krishna, even as a baby, was thinking of protecting the Vrajavasis. He was so concerned out of his love for them that these are my devotees and they should not be inconvenienced. Veer, Krishna is described as a supreme hero.
And Vraja Janarthihan, whatever distresses the Vrajavasis face, he is always competent to protect them from all distresses. So, that child whom his parents were thinking that we need to protect them, that child was thinking, how can I protect them? And so, Krishna was, in a sense, proactively planning. As Dronavarth came, Krishna was readily accessible, out in the courtyard, with no Mother Yashoda near him, on the ground, and the storm just came, picked him and went off.
And while the storm was there, everybody was blinded. Mother Yashoda was also blinded. And he was, what is this? Where did the storm come from? Certain areas in the world are known for storms.
Say, in America, tornadoes, hurricanes, these kind of storms are common. In India, sometimes cyclones come on the eastern coast quite often. But some parts of the country, storms are not very common.
So, hurricanes, tornadoes, cyclones, they don't come so much in the central part of India. So, in Vrindavan, storms were not so common. The Rajyasi have also heard of storms, but storms were not so common.
This kind of sudden, brutal storm, everybody in Vrindavan was shocked. And as a loving mother, as soon as Mother Yashoda was blinded temporarily, she looked, her vision recovered, the storm departed. Started looking, and she saw, Krishna is not there.
She just became frantic with fear, running, where did Krishna go? He was there at one moment, and next moment he disappeared. Children are often very restless. And you just keep them free for one moment, and then they just run here, run there.
And parents have to always be watchful, where has the child gone? So, just as parents have to watch their child. Actually, Mother Yashoda was watching her child. But children, even if they are restless, they can run fast, but they all have finite speed with which they can run.
So, Mother Yashoda looked around, where did Krishna go? She couldn't see him anywhere at all. And then, the storm had come, and as Krishna got swept away in the storm, she was horrified at the very thought. He has been swept away, where will he fall? What will happen to him? So, she started panicking, and she started becoming overwhelmed.
Suddenly, the Vrajavasis were all gathered there, and Mother Yashoda just cried out in fear. Everybody became alarmed, and they came. When they came there, they started looking around, where is Krishna? Where is Krishna? And suddenly, one of the Vrajavasis pointed, Krishna is there.
And they looked up, and then they saw that this demon was there. And if you have seen the picture of Trnavarta, how it is, the lower part of his body is like the winds of the storm. The upper part of the body is the demon.
You can see the demon over there. So, the idea here is that there are subtle forces in nature. And wizards, most of the demons who came to attack Krishna were wizards.
So, these wizards can take up different forms. So, normally when we think of forms, we think, okay, somebody can become, say, somebody can take an animal's form, like say Maricha took the form of a deer, or Ravana took the form of a sadhu. But with mystical power, now that sort of form is basically like a fancy dress competition.
Isn't it? We might be one person, we might dress ourselves in another way. Now, just dressing like someone is not what is being talked about when we talk about forms. When Maricha took the form of a deer, he was not just like a human being dressed up as a deer.
He had actually taken the form of a deer. So, but there are further mystic powers by which one can take up forms, not just of other animals apart from humans, but one can take up forms of mystic forces also, of the forces of nature also. So, just like if we have, we have Ganga Devi.
Now, what exactly do we mean by Ganga Devi? That is the goddess Ganga and that Ganga also manifests as the water. So, when required, she would manifest as a person. But even when she is not manifested as a person, she is there as the water.
So, this kind of taking of the form, that the way, when we talk about the soul comes in a body, there are different ways in which the soul can get connected with the body. For us, we are souls who come in a human body and then we stay in that body and then we depart from the body. But when Prabhupada talked about Tulsi Devi, Prabhupada said that Tulsi is one soul.
Every Tulsi is actually a distinct Tulsi, but at the same time it is one Tulsi Devi, who is manifesting through all Tulsis. So, the embodiment of Tulsi Devi is different from the embodiment of all other plants. She is one divine goddess who manifests in different forms.
So, for the reverse, it is not that Ganga is the body of the soul called Ganga. No, the soul who is Ganga Devi, she has a celestial feminine form. But that form also manifests as the water body Ganga.
So, this kind of embodiment is different from, say, if we have Soma, who is the moon god. Now, the moon is not the body of this god. He is the, the moon god is the presiding deity of the moon.
So, there are different ways in which the soul can connect with a material body or with a material phenomena. So, by some mystic powers, Trunavarth took the form of a storm. And he took the form of the storm, he was by nature a demon.
Normally, when people assume any particular form, that they need some amount of mystical power to assume that form. And that mystical power requires some conscious intention. Okay, I want to acquire this form.
And when that purpose is served, then they give up that form and they return to their normal form. This can happen in multiple situations. One is they wanted to do something for that they acquired that form.
They did the work in that form and then they themselves voluntarily gave up that form. The other is that if, so this is the case right now of Trunavarth. He had temporarily taken up the form of a storm and he had gone high up into the sky.
From there he came rushing down, picked up Krishna and went high up again into the sky. And now that he had got Krishna, he had no reason to continue the form of a storm. So, because his purpose was fulfilled, he gave up the form of a storm.
But the other situation is when a demon comes up in a particular form, like it happened in Puttanaski's case. She came in the very attractive feminine form. But when Krishna started sucking out her life air by sucking on her breast, at that time suddenly her natural form appeared.
Huge hideous demoness. So, what happened? In that case, for maintaining any form, a certain amount of mystic power is required. But when the life is threatened, the demon in order to survive tries to focus all the mystical, all available power in just protecting oneself.
And then whatever power they have exercised for manifesting that form, that power is no longer available. So, in that way they revert back to their normal form. So, here Trunavarth, for him his purpose was fulfilled and he went high up into the sky.
Now his plan was, he was thinking this, Krishna is a dangerous character. He looks like a small child, but Krishna has killed Puttana, Krishna has killed Shaktasura. I don't want to take any chances.
He says, I'll go so high up in the sky, let's throw Krishna down from there. And the greater the height you go up from there, if you fall, the lesser is the chance of survival. So, that was his plan.
But we have our plans and Krishna has his plan. So, Krishna went along with the plan of Trunavarth. And Trunavarth was thinking, yes, my plan is successful.
I'm succeeding. I'm going high up, high up, high up. And as Krishna went up, Krishna was going up, so Trunavarth was first holding Krishna by his shoulder, like this, holding him.
But as he went higher, Krishna just acted like a small child who's become fearful of the heights. Actually, Krishna on his side was simply enjoying a free ride. High up in the sky, enjoying a happy ride through the sky.
And high up, high up he was going, the wind, the sky, the clouds, so enjoyable, Krishna was enjoying. And Trunavarth was going up and up and up. And then, at the same time, Krishna was aware that actually Mother Yashoda was becoming panicky.
She was swooned because of her panic. And Krishna said, now, enough. And then, as Trunavarth was taking Krishna up, Krishna acted as if he's a fearful child.
And when children are fearful, what happens is, if the mother may be holding them, and they may be just looking here and there, but if they become fearful, then they turn and hold their mother tightly. So, like that, Krishna turned and held Trunavarth with both his hands around his neck. And Trunavarth thought, oh, this child has become scared now.
So, as Krishna held him up, what happened was, Trunavarth decided, now I've gone enough height, I'll throw him down. But Krishna had put his arms around his neck and he just couldn't throw him. And he was trying to push Krishna.
And at that time, Krishna started pressing. Now, Sanatana Goswami has written a commentary on the 10th Canto called Vaishnav Toshan. And there he describes that when Putana came and she tried to kill Krishna, at that time, she screamed, screeched loudly, let me go, let me go.
And that screeching alarmed the Vrajavasis. So, Krishna decided, I don't want the Vrajavasis to be alarmed. So, what Krishna did was, he put his arms around the neck and held the neck so tightly, that Trunavarth couldn't make any sound.
He was completely choked. Now, Krishna's hands are very small. But within those small hands, he has such power.
So, first, Krishna used this power to choke Trunavarth. Trunavarth was trying to push Krishna away. And then, Krishna started increasing his weight.
So, Krishna has initially of the normal weight, from which he suddenly increased his weight so that Madhuri Yashoda would put him down. And when Trunavarth came, again Krishna decreased his weight. Then Trunavarth could easily take him.
He thought he's just an ordinary child. But now, Krishna increased his weight so much, that Trunavarth felt himself being crushed. He said, restless, he said, push the child away.
But the child had held him so tightly, he just couldn't do anything. Just couldn't do anything at all. He started falling down, falling down, falling down.
The same height to which he had gone up, so that he would throw Krishna down. Now, that same height worked against him. Because if he had not gone so much high, he would not have fallen so badly.
But Krishna allowed him to go high up. And then Krishna used that same height to get him to crash down. And as he started crashing down, he realised, what is happening? He was alarmed.
He couldn't even speak. He was flailing his arms, trying to catch this child, push. Now, Krishna's body is so tender and this demon was ruthlessly trying to use his full force to try to rip Krishna away from his body.
But he just couldn't do anything. And he just crashed on the ground. Bang! As he crashed on the ground, he just became dismembered and he fell dead.
But Krishna fell on him. And Krishna remained completely safe. And Mother Yashoda, when she had seen Krishna high up in the sky with this demon, she was so horrified.
First, she thought, where has Krishna gone? The storm has taken him away. She thought, Krishna has fallen. The storm has caused him to fall somewhere nearby.
She saw he is high up. It was not just a storm. It was a demon.
The demon has taken Krishna. What is going to happen to my Krishna now? He just swooned completely. The human body has a certain amount of capacity to experience emotions.
If we get a heavy blow on the head, then what happens is, of course, there can be brain damage. But even if there is no brain damage, if the capacity to experience pain of the body is exceeded, there is a natural defence mechanism, the body switches off. The body takes us to unconsciousness.
So that we don't have to bear that much pain. Otherwise that pain is not bearable. Just as there can be physical pain that is unbearable, similarly there can be emotional pain that is unbearable.
Emotional pain that is unbearable means that sometimes people may hear some traumatic news. They may hear that, oh, this person is, somebody hears that this person has died. And some person might be carrying some, some woman might be carrying some plates to bring to serve.
She says, this person died. Shock! The plates will fall off and she will fall down. Unconscious.
So there the pain is so great that the body can't bear it. And one switches off at that time. So similarly over here, Vishudhamayi just fell unconscious.
And now the Vrajavasis were torn. One side there is Krishna and one side Vishudhamayi is unconscious. So they are sprinkling water on her, trying to bring her to consciousness.
And she was so, she was so fearful that she just didn't come to consciousness. And then the Vrajavasis finally told her, Yashoda, Yashoda, Krishna is back. Krishna is safe.
And Krishna is safe. And she opened her eyes. It's really true.
Where is my Krishna? Where is my Krishna? She says, he was up in the sky. How is he safe? No, no, Krishna is safe. Narayan has protected him.
Narayan has protected him. And then the Vrajavasis, Yashoda got up and says, the demon has fallen over here. They all ran over there.
And some of the Vrajavasis had already gone there. They had picked up Krishna from the body of Dronavarth and they gave him to Yashoda. And when Yashoda got him, again Krishna had become so light like a small baby.
Yashoda took him and hugged him to her life. Hugged him to her bosom. Her life had come back to her.
So Dronavarth, he met his death with the very same means, the same height which he took Krishna, by which he was brought down and he was destroyed. Krishna Bhagwan ki jai. So Bhaktanath Thakur explains that Dronavarth refers to useless argumentation.
What he represents is the misuse of the intellectual faculty for arguing back and forth and on and on and on. Actually, in general, if we consider Vrindavan to be like our heart, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu would say that more or less Vrindavan, my heart is like Vrindavan. So the mind is usually equated with the heart because the mind is where emotions are situated and the heart is also the seat of emotions.
So now if we consider Vrindavan to be like the heart, Krishna was present in Vrindavan. But Dronavarth came as a storm and took Krishna. Similarly for us, arguments, false or misleading or pointless arguments can come as a storm and they can sweep Krishna out of our heart.
They can create doubts, they can create confusion, they can create delusions and we just lose Krishna. tarko apratishtha shrutayo vibhinna na sa vrushir yasya matam na bhinnam So tarko apratishtha, if one uses logic and argumentation, apratishtha, it ultimately has no foundation. Shrutayo vibhinna, that there are different books which say different things.
And na sa vrushir yasya matam na bhinnam. Prabhupada translates this as that there are different rishis who have different opinions. But the literal Sanskrit is even more interesting.
What it says is, na sa vrushir yasya matam na bhinnam. You are not, people do not, somebody is not called a rishi unless he has an opinion different from others. Na sa vrushir, one is not a rishi till one speculates and has his own opinion.
So people who are intellectual often they have their own ideas. And with their own ideas they can never come to any conclusion. And therefore it is said, mahajano yena tadasapantha, you have to follow dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam.
That the essence of dharma, the truth of dharma is hidden. Now the literal translation Guha would be a cave. So it is hidden in the cave.
Now the cave here refers to the heart. Whose heart? It is the heart of the great souls. Mahajano yena tadasapantha.
That there are great souls and you have to follow in their footsteps. So what does this pointless argumentation mean in our lives? I'll talk about it at three different levels. First is in terms of our faith in Krishna Bhakti, in terms of the other people whom we are connecting with Krishna, their faith and how that can be distorted by arguments.
And thirdly I'll talk about how within the practise of Krishna Bhakti there can be arguments. This is the way to do things, this is the way to do things. And that way there can be problems.
Broadly speaking there are two main distractions on the spiritual path. One is desire and the other is doubt. Krishna many times in the Bhagavad Gita tells us, mayi arpit mano buddhir mam evaiśyasya samśaya.
Offer your mind and intelligence to me and then you will come to me. So from the mind desires spring up. From the intelligence doubt springs up.
So in that way the mind and the intelligence can both distract us from Krishna. So Krishna is saying offer the mind and the intelligence both to me. Now there is a difference between desires and doubts in terms of the effect that they have on us.
Generally if some desires start dragging us here and there, they make us feel weak. If they make us indulge in wrong things they humiliate us. At least they humble us.
And we actually feel the need for Krishna. I have to call out to Krishna. But when doubts come, actually doubts make us feel superior to others.
If we are in the association of devotees and we start getting doubts and we may start thinking all these people they are sentimental. They don't use their intelligence. This is a solid question.
They don't get these questions. What kind of brain do they have? So we start thinking that we are actually more intelligent than others when we have doubts. And thus doubts distract us but because doubts can also create a sense of superiority within us.
So the disturbance that they cause can be greater. It's interesting that doubt on the spiritual path is considered to be a spiritual weakness. It's a spiritual weakness.
But among intellectuals, among scholars, doubt is considered to be an intellectual strength. They consider the capacity to doubt. We won't believe anything and everything.
Capacity to doubt is our strength. We are critical, we are sceptical and we evaluate things thoroughly. Yes, we should evaluate things thoroughly.
At the same time, the Bhagavatam tells us that doubt is a function of the intelligence. अत्तः सम्शयो विपर्यास निष्चयस्वति स्वाप इति बुद्धि लक्षन It says that samshaya is doubt. Then viparyasa, apprehension.
Then recollection. Then conclusion. And then sleep.
So now what it means is that if we are living a materialistic life and everybody tells us, Oh, everybody, we are all going to be happy in life. Do this, do this, do this, we'll be happy. If we are to practise spiritual life, we have to have some doubts about the promises of materialistic culture.
If we don't have doubts, we just keep believing. Let me do this, I'll become happy. Let me do this, I'll become happy.
So in that sense, doubt is a virtue. So many advertisements tell us, we buy this, you buy this, you buy this and you'll be happy. It's amazing how people believe advertisements, sometimes which are utterly ridiculous.
I saw an advertisement which showed a car, a young man was driving a car. And there was a young girl in the background looking admiringly at him, adoringly at him. And there was another young man in the back glaring at him.
And his ad said that buy this car and enjoy the envy in your neighbour's eyes. Enjoy the envy. Now what a standard of enjoyment.
Tomorrow they will get a better car and then they will say that I will enjoy the envy in your eyes. So below that they said, you are your car. You are your car.
It is actually, to identify with the body is bad enough. The body is a vehicle for the soul. The car is a vehicle for the body.
So to identify with the vehicle for the vehicle, it is like you could say you have illusion and illusion squared. Illusion squared. Now I was playing with words, so I said that you are your car.
So you could translate this in Sanskrit as ahamkar. And we have the Sanskrit word ahamkar. So ahamkar is ahamkar.
So this is vityahamkar. This is the false ego by which we identify with things. Now obviously you are not your car.
Yes, you could say your car makes a statement about your financial status or whatever. But people just get so carried away by advertisements. So doubt in that sense is good.
However, after we have some doubts, then this, so doubt leads to apprehension. Maybe my current understanding is not right. So if we are living materialistically and we get doubts.
How are all these things going to make me happy? There are some doubts about it. Doubt leads to apprehension. Apprehension means we start evaluating, hesitation and analysis.
Maybe this is right and this is not right. And then we come to a conclusion. Okay, this is not right.
And then after that, whatever conclusion that gets reinforced within us as our recollection, as our memory. And the next time when we see it, we won't believe in it. We won't get caught by it.
So doubt, the Bhagavatam says, is a function of the intelligence. However, doubt is not the only function of the intelligence. The nature of Tamo Muna is that we take one thing and make it into everything.
So in 18.22 Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that, यत्तु कुछ नवद एकस्मिन कारी सत्तम है तुकमा तत्वार्था दल्पम्चे तत्तामसमुधारुतम् One makes one thing, कुछ नवद एकस्मिन. When we take one thing to be everything, then that's a problem. So yes, to doubt requires intelligence.
But to keep doubting is not intelligent. If you are going to go to a doctor, at that time, we want to evaluate. Is the doctor good? Does what the doctor is saying make sense? We needn't believe anything and everything the doctor tells us.
If I have got stomach upset and the doctor says I have to amputate your leg. What? That doesn't make any sense to me. So it's good to have some doubts.
But eventually we have to put faith. If we want to be treated, if we keep doubting every single doctor that we go to, then we will ourselves stay sick. So after some time, we have to take some faith.
Take a leap of faith or you could say take a gulp of faith. Take a pill or take a tonic or take a medicine, whatever. So doubt is required, but eventually we have to act.
So the problem with false argument is that one just keeps doubting permanently. This is not right. This is not right.
This is not right. This is not right. So some people are sceptics.
They just pride themselves. I am a sceptic. This is an international sceptics organisation.
And they feel very proud. We are sceptics. We don't believe anything easily.
Yes, it is good to have, as I said, some passive doubt. But the problem is, there is a problem with scepticism. That problem is that sceptics are sceptical about everything except scepticism.
They are not sceptical about scepticism. What do I mean sceptical about scepticism? See scepticism can tell me, I don't believe in this. I don't believe in this.
I don't believe in this. Scepticism can only tell us what is wrong. Scepticism will never tell us what is right.
Is this clear? I can always be sceptical about anything. This, this, this, this. If I keep being sceptical, the result would be that I will never arrive at any conclusion.
So scepticism can never take us to the truth. It may take us away from falsehood. But scepticism alone will not take us to the truth.
So sceptics may say, there is no absolute truth. OK. Is this statement an absolute truth? There is no absolute truth.
But you are making absolute statement, isn't it? So is this statement an absolute truth? If they say yes, then that means there is an absolute truth. This one statement is an absolute truth. If you say no, is there absolute truth? No.
So is this statement an absolute truth? No. Then what this means is, the statement that there is no absolute truth applies to this statement also. So therefore, there is an absolute truth.
The statement is true, it becomes false. When it becomes false, it becomes true. If you don't understand this, don't worry.
But the point is, there is no absolute truth is actually a self-contradictory statement. Because you are already making a statement and that statement has to have truth value. It's like saying, somebody says, I don't know a single word of English.
Well, you already spoke 8 words. So scepticism can never take us to the truth. That's why one has to put faith at a particular point.
We use our intelligence, we analyse, but then we have to put faith. And Krishna tells in the Bhagavad Gita that, शद्धावाल्लवदेज्ञानम् He says it is by faith that knowledge comes. When we go to even science, study science, we put faith in the previous scientists.
We say, no, no, science keeps changing, science keeps developing. But yes, the development is based on studying what previous scientists have studied. We may revise something in what they have studied, but always we build on what previously we have learned.
There is no way we can be completely sceptical. So if somebody is trying to practise bhakti, they keep doubting, what about this, what about this, what about this, what about this? So Prabhupada was once in America, in New York, and he was giving a class. And one hippie after his class said, Swami, your philosophy sounds like that of the Buddha.
So Prabhupada said, do you follow Buddha? He said, no, no. Prabhupada said, follow Buddha, follow Jesus, follow Krishna, follow someone. Don't just talk.
Don't just talk. Why? I can argue this philosophy, this philosophy, this philosophy. We will just go on arguing endlessly.
Ultimately, unless we practise something, we will not come to know whether it is right or it is wrong. At the intellectual level, it's like analysing this medicine is good or this medicine is good, this medicine is good, this medicine is good. Ultimately, you have to take the medicine.
Without that, how will we know? So there is, of course, the use of reason. But beyond that, there is the use of, we have to put faith. So we all may have certain doubts.
So there are different questions. Sometimes some questions we may just not be able to get answers, we may not be able to satisfy with the answers. So in, say, some devotees ask this question, how did the Jiva fall from the spiritual world? Did the Jiva fall from the spiritual world? So there are, I say, this is a question, which is a favourite question of devotees for giving themselves an intellectual headache.
There are some questions which are like intellectual banana peels. You know what is a banana peel? As soon as you step on it, you fall. So like that, there are some questions in philosophy.
So Prabhupada made different statements at different times. Ultimately, he said that what happens outside the time domain is not really understandable. So there is no need to put too much energy on this.
Some devotees may have a particular understanding, other devotees may have different understanding. And whatever understanding seems reasonable to us, we accept it and move on. So there are, when we practise bhakti, we all have to focus on what is central and put aside what is peripheral.
One characteristic of intelligence is to differentiate between this. What is central and what is peripheral. So hold on to the central, let go of the peripheral.
So in bhakti, Prabhupada was once asked by some disciples, he said that he was in Hawaii and the disciples asked him, Swami Prabhupada, when we talk with the scholars and we tell from the 10th canto that Putana was this big or there are so many thousands of bodyguards which Ugrasen had. So scholars started laughing. How is this possible? Dwaraka is such a small place.
How could so many people live in Dwaraka? And Prabhupada gave a very pragmatic reply. He said, among the thousands of verses in the Bhagavatam, was that the only thing you found to speak with the scholars? There is a time when people can accept that God has infinite potency and God can do extraordinary things. But when people don't have that, why go into that zone? You talk about one offence of the Holy Name is to instruct people, to instruct faithless people in the glories of the Holy Name.
Now where is the offence in that? Is it all outreach that we do? Are we committing that offence? The offence is that if we speak to people things that they cannot be expected to have faith in. So don't speak those things to them. It's like if we come to a temple and sometimes we want to climb up to go to the temple, say the stairs, but normal stairs are this much height.
So steps are this much height. You know people can't climb with their legs. They have to use their hands and climb up.
Sometimes there are some temples on top of mountains and people have to struggle to climb up. There is no clear path. So very few people in the scale like that.
So to instruct a faithless person in the glories of the Holy Name means what? To show people a path which will require them to climb like that up to the temple, to come to Krishna. No need to do that. We speak those things to people which will help them to understand, which will make sense to them and from there they take steps forward.
It's not that we are denying things. It's just that we have to contextualise. So when people have a lot of questions and at that time we have to focus on that aspect of bhakti which connects with them.
With somebody we may have 99% disagreement. They may have 99% doubts, but find the 1% whether they have faith or at least they have openness and focus on that and from there things will grow. Somebody is going to another organisation, following some other teacher.
We start by saying, oh no, this teacher's teaching is wrong or this is not right, it's not right. They don't have the faith in us right now. Why can we expect them to have the faith? So begin with what is common.
Among the thousands and millions of people are living materialistically that they are people who are actually interested in something spiritual. That is to be appreciated. Appreciate that.
And then we have some common ground. So even if there is 99% disagreement, 99% doubts, find the 1% faith, 1% openness and start from there. And when we do that, so if we go to the 99% differences, then get swept away.
Storm will come and they will just go away from Krishna. If, say for example, somebody asks, Krishna, many people from India, Krishna I can accept as God, but Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, how do you consider him to be God? And somebody replies, in the Vayu Purana, hypothetically, in the Vayu Purana it is said, anybody who sees any difference between Krishna Chandra and Gaura Chandra will go to hell. I think if you answer like that, that person says, you go to hell.
I don't care. Now the point here is that what is important? The important thing is that people's faith needs to grow. So if somebody has a question, they have to answer that question in a way that helps their faith to grow.
Bhaktivinod Thakur, in his book on Life and Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, he describes the introduction very beautifully. He says that, he describes a brief summary of Lord Chaitanya's life along with some of the extraordinary things like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu made animals dance, some of the miracles that he performed. And then he concludes by saying that for the Bengali Vaishnavas, the Bengali Vaishnavas have concluded that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is God.
And for them, these miracles, they testify to his divinity. At the same time, Bhaktivinod Thakur is accommodating the opposite. Miracles are no conclusive proof of divinity.
Even demons like Ravana perform miracles like changing their form. So the essential miracle of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is, I am paraphrasing here, essential miracle is that if you follow the process of devotion he has given, you can experience the flood of love in the heart that has no path. That is extraordinary.
So irrespective of whether our esteemed readers accept his divinity or not, we do urge them to accept the process of devotion that he has offered. So if somebody starts practising bhakti, the process of bhakti has the potency to give that faith. So we can't demand faith right in the beginning.
So if we find that some people have a lot of questions, then okay we can address their questions as much as possible. But don't get caught in questions. Especially if questions are coming in an argumentative and combative mood, then just be polite, answer the questions as much as possible.
And if they are just going on and on, then let them, just give them some prasad, give them something that will give them an appreciation of Krishna bhakti. And move on. When the right time comes, they will remember.
People may not remember what we spoke. But people will remember how we made them feel. A, people will not remember exact argument that they had with us.
But if we are warm, we are courteous, if we were gentle, they will remember that. I had a big argument with this person, but he remained calm. He was nice to me.
And that will attract them. This doesn't mean that we don't use logic. Certainly we use logic.
There is a time and place for it. If people are approaching logically, objectively, then you use logical, objective answer that helps. But when the arguments are simply going to and fro, at that time, it's best to focus on the heart.
Not in the sentimental sense, but in the sense of creating a connection. So arguments can just go on and on and on. Even in the Indian tradition, there is the argument between the personalist and impersonalist.
So the Vaishnavas says, the impersonalist says, soham, I am that absolute truth. The Vaishnavas come and say, no, they add a da over there, da soham. I am not that absolute truth.
I am the servant of that absolute truth. And the impersonalists come and say, sadasoham, I am always that absolute. And the Vaishnavas come and say, dasadasoham.
The impersonalists come and say, sadasadasoham. And the Vaishnavas say, dasadasadasoham. So it just goes on.
So the arguments can just go on forever. We have to focus on practising bhakti and encouraging others to practise bhakti. And the last part I'll conclude is that while we are practising bhakti ourselves, sometimes arguments can come up between devotees themselves.
This is the right way of doing things. This is the right way of doing things. And this can lead to so much conflicts.
One devotee had made a presentation and he showed me that there is this picture of some Norman or Greek warriors fighting with like a sharp weapon, a sword in their hands and two swords are clashing against each other. And on both the swords are written, Prabhupada said, Prabhupada said. So sometimes devotees may argue, Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.
And based on that we may start arguing. So we have to see that what was the purpose of Prabhupada. The purpose of Prabhupada was to help people come closer to Krishna.
And we can look at Prabhupada's specific statements. But just specific statements are not as important as his overall intent. Overall intent was to help people to become conscious of Krishna.
And when the world changes, the times change. So we have to present Krishna in different ways to different people. So at that time, some people say this is how Prabhupada did it.
Yes, this is how Prabhupada did it. But that's wonderful. We respect it.
But if that way we are not able to connect with people, then what do we do? Actually, Prabhupada did not do one thing. If you look at Prabhupada's preaching in America and Prabhupada's preaching in India, it's quite different. In America, it meant moving into the temples.
Preaching meant, who became a devotee, leave the world, move into the temples. But Prabhupada in India, not many people were ready to move into the temples. Hardly anyone practically speaking.
So then Prabhupada's main preaching was make people life members. Engage them where they were and help them to grow that way. So you could say that the full time devotees in the temple were at this level and the life members were at a very loose level of commitment.
But Prabhupada accepted them, appreciated them, encouraged them. And most of the people who were life members, they had their own religious teachers, their own gurus, their own paths. And Prabhupada did not always confront them.
Sometimes if they were close and they were asking Prabhupada questions, he would educate them. But Prabhupada just encouraged them to move onwards in their bhakti. Now if we see today, our movement is neither here nor here.
Here is full time devotees, life members is, most devotees are congregation based devotees. They are much more committed than life members but not full time devotees. So the whole ground reality is different.
So when we say follow Prabhupada, Prabhupada gave philosophical principles and Prabhupada gave practical guidelines. So in spiritual life, there are principles and there are preferences. Principles means remember Krishna, that is the principle.
The preferences, ok, how do I remember Krishna? So somebody may remember Krishna by singing kirtan. Somebody may remember Krishna by hearing the Bhagavatam. Somebody may remember Krishna by memorising verses.
Somebody may remember Krishna by worshipping the deities. That is, that flexibility is there. Prabhupada himself, now Prabhupada at one level he said that I haven't changed anything.
I am like a postman. I have given the Krishna, I have given what my spiritual master has given. But there is another lecture where Prabhupada says I have practically invented the Krishna consciousness movement.
Now what does Prabhupada mean? Prabhupada says this in the context of the Bhaktira Samrat Sindhu statement that ye na ke na prakari na manan krishna niven shayad. Somehow or the other fix the mind on Krishna. So Prabhupada said that when he says I have invented the Krishna consciousness movement, what he meant by that is I have created ways for people to remember Krishna.
And Prabhupada says it is the responsibility of the spiritual master to create ways by which the disciple can remember Krishna. So like that in today's world different devotees may do different things. And somebody would say this is right, this is right, this is right.
Actually if such kind of arguments start happening, it is best to keep a distance and keep practising bhakti. Otherwise arguments can just go on and on. And especially arguments inside the community, inside the movement, they can be very demoralising.
We are trying to reach out to the world and get people to Krishna. As long as the principle of getting people to Krishna is maintained, the preference of how that is to be done, that will vary. Otherwise the arguments just go on and on and on and on.
And so much energy gets sucked. But instead of letting all that energy get sucked, just focus on practising Krishna bhakti, focus on sharing Krishna bhakti. And we will ourselves relish it and others will relish it.
And in that way we can move on towards Krishna. I'll conclude with one pastimes with Prabhupada. Prabhupada was in Vrindavan and the devotees had a debate over there, conflict.
So Tamal Krishna Maharaj and other devotees, Tamal Krishna Maharaj was a servant of Prabhupada. One group of devotees said that actually the only difference between Krishna and Balaram is in complexion. But other devotees said no, actually only Krishna is the lord of Radharani.
Balaram is not. The only difference between them is this. So this argument went on, the other points also, but it became heated.
And they went to Prabhupada. And one party said, Prabhupada, the only difference between Krishna and Balaram is in complexion. Prabhupada said, yes, that's right.
Prabhupada said, the only difference between Krishna and Balaram is that only Krishna is the lord of Radharani. Yes, that's right. But Prabhupada, both of them can't be right.
That's right. But then Prabhupada, what is right? That you decide. So Prabhupada just let it go over there.
So there are, it's not that in the process of bhakti we have to make Krishna the hostage of our intelligence and get extract answer for every question. We just keep practising bhakti and answers will be revealed in new course. This Vranavarth, he swept Krishna.
If we just get too much into intellectual analysis, this, this, this, this, this, it's like we may think I am being such an intellectual. I can quote this verse, I can quote from this point, I can quote this, I can quote this. And all that we are doing is we are simply increasing the height from which we will fall.
We quote all the shastra and we become very proud and very argumentative and all that is happening where that is? Where is our heart is getting dry. See, arguments sap the rasa from the heart. So it's best, the world is a big place and if we feel that something is not right, then we can start something and we can ourselves set an example of how to do it right.
Why criticise someone else? There are so many people in the world who don't have Krishna bhakti. If somebody is trying to give Krishna to others, if we feel this is not the way to do things, then nobody is stopping us from doing something ourselves. So if we can avoid this pitfall of argumentation, we'll have so much energy available for reaching out to others and reaching out to Krishna in our own hearts.
And we will enrich our heart with devotion and enrich the hearts of many, many others. So to summarise, I spoke about the theme of Trnavarta and how endless argumentations happen. In that I spoke about, I started with the past name of Trnavarta, how Krishna, although a small baby who needed protection, but Krishna was arranging for the protection of the Vrajavasis.
He first increased his weight. Mother Yashoda put him on the ground in the courtyard so that when Trnavarta came, minimum damage. And then Krishna allowed Trnavarta to take him high so that he could have a free ride and then he choked him so that he couldn't even scream.
That he wouldn't alarm the Vrajavasis. And the same height which he was trying to use to get Krishna to fall, to throw down Krishna, that same height Krishna used to end Trnavarta. So the whole Baal Neela pastimes, they also demonstrate the vatsalya rasa of Yashodamayi.
She was intensely in anxiety. Practically her life went away when Krishna went away. When Krishna came back, her life came back.
Trnavarta represents pointless argumentation. Talked about how doubt is an intellectual virtue or intellectual strength up to a particular point. It becomes a spiritual weakness if that doubt prevents us from committing to anything.
So scepticism is good. We need to doubt the promises of materialistic culture for providing us pleasure. But we have to be sceptical about scepticism also.
That means scepticism can only tell us what is wrong, never what is right. And otherwise scepticism ends up with self-contradictory statements. And to deal with doubt, to avoid endless argumentation, I talked about three things.
First is for our self-application. If we have some doubts, if the overall philosophy of Krishna consciousness makes sense, if the central points make sense, then put the peripheral points aside. Like say the fall of the Jiva or the huge dimensions in certain aspects of the Bhagavatam.
They are not the central thing. Central thing is connecting with Krishna, experiencing Krishna bhakti. If somebody can't accept Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's divinity, just practise bhakti right now.
Do not argue about that. Then we talked about the outreach, that if somebody is arguing too much, then that will simply lead to alienation. So people will forget what we spoke, but they will remember how we made them feel.
So even if there is 99% doubt and disagreement, focus on the 1% commonality and begin with that. And if we can't make any further headway, end with that, end with cordiality, end with being nice to people. And eventually in their life that memory will inspire them to explore further in the direction of Krishna.
And within devotees when there are conflicts about how Krishna bhakti is to be practised, we have to see that. Actually, we say Prabhupada said this, but more than Prabhupada's specific statements, more important than Prabhupada's specific statements is his overall intent. Which was to help people remember Krishna.
And Prabhupada was resourceful and multifaceted in say how we introduced Krishna bhakti in America and how we introduced it in India. Again it was already there, but twist on how we introduced it. So our movement is neither filled with full time devotees now nor male life members.
It is in between congregation members. So the situation is different and Prabhupada was resourceful in providing people ways to remember Krishna. Similarly, we also and our leaders will also do that.
And if we find that something doesn't, we can't appreciate something, then rather than criticising something, just keep a distance and do something constructive. The world is a big place and instead of fighting, arguing and fighting Mamajigarh, we can actually expand the reach of Krishna in whatever way we feel inspired to do. And as if we avoid the storm of needless argumentation, then Krishna will enrich the Vrindavan of our hearts and Krishna will enrich the hearts of many others also.
Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Any questions or comments? Yes.
Thank you for a wonderful lecture. I have two questions. You've made a parallel between Trinavarta and Angula's arguments.
What are the parallels with other demons Krishna depicted in Srimad Bhagavatam? For example, Putana or Kamsa. Are there any kind of examples? Bhaktivinoda Thakur gives this. He talks about Putana representing a false guru, a misleading guru.
I spoke on that in two classes earlier. Then there's Shaktasura, he represents lethargy. So Bhaktivinoda Thakur has talked about this in Chaitanya-Shiksha-Amrut and Krishna-Samhita both.
He gives several demons and decides what they represent. The sons of Devaki who were killed earlier, before Krishna was born, they represent the six anarthas. Balram represents the guru and then the six anarthas are removed and then the guru comes and cleanses our heart.
Then Krishna manifests over there. You said you had a second question? I was wondering, you also said the comments to Srimad Bhagavatam were made by Srimad Bhagavatam Swami. Are they available in English? Yeah, Bhanu Maharaj has translated them.
Any other questions or comments? Hi Krishna Thakur. Thank you for the wonderful class. In the class you mentioned about Nishanandamayi not being able to tolerate the pain of Krishna being away.
So the human body gets faint when it cannot. So the question is, Krishna, even 5000 years back, was in his spiritual body. So now what happens is, his immediate relatives, gopis, gopas, cows, we are told all of them had come from Vrindavan to participate in Srila.
So how to understand whether they were in their original spiritual bodies or they were in souls situated in the material body, how to understand that? Krishna's sons are referred in Krishna book, right? Yes, yes. So at what point you find sons of Krishna and their sons, at what point you find it became material? Okay. So today's question doubts.
Okay. So Krishna came in a spiritual body. But what about Krishna's associates? If they also came in a spiritual body, then there are so many generations who came after Krishna.
So at what generation the body changed from spiritual to material? Yeah, I would say that even if the body is spiritual, for practical purposes, their body functions within the Leela, in a way that is whatever is required for the Leela. So, okay, Krishna's body is spiritual, but then from her breast she produces milk. So now is that milk also spiritual? Okay, if the milk is spiritual, then the food that she ate, is it also spiritual? Okay, the food that she ate is spiritual and the grains from which the food was made, are the grains also spiritual? Then the grains were produced from the earth and the soil is also spiritual.
Well, where do you stop it over there, if you go like that? So, actually Ramacharya elaborately analyses this, that what exactly is spiritual and what exactly is material when the Lord descends. So this first, the first principle is extremely difficult to understand. But the essential point is that whatever is required for the purpose of the Leela, that is done.
And even Krishna's body can manifest blood. When Bhishma shoots arrows, Krishna's body seems to manifest blood. But is it material then? No, it is not.
For the purpose of Leela, that is what is required, that will be manifested. And there are some aspects where there is a differentiation. Say for example, some Gopis, when they come to Krishna, when Krishna plays the flute and calls the Gopis, so some are unable to come.
And then the Bhagavatam says that in their intense longing for Krishna, they gave up their bodies. And they were separated, they were separated from Krishna because they were restricted. But by giving up their bodies, they left and they were united with Krishna in a spiritual way.
So that the Acharyas described that these were Gopis who were sadhana siddha, who were not yet completely pure. And so the other Gopis who were nitya siddha, they were able to unite with Krishna. Some were not able to unite with Krishna.
But then they became completely cleansed and then they were able to unite with Krishna. So there is certainly, there are certainly some associates who are eternal. But we can't really say that everyone over there was eternal.
Mother Yashoda's body fainting, well, the point over there is that Anandanandavan Champu talks about this, not with respect to Mother Yashoda, with respect to Radharani, that when Krishna leaves Radharani in the forest, in the Raslila and goes away, Radharani faints. And he says over there that, he talks about Murksha Devi. Murksha Devi is unconsciousness.
He says that the pain of separation from Krishna was so great for Radharani that she couldn't have survived. So in order to save her, Murksha Devi came and she made her unconscious. So it's told in a more poetic way, this principle what I spoke.
So the same principle will apply to Yashoda Mahi also. So now there are certain associates who are definitely his eternal associates. But many in Krishna Nila may not be.
Is it that when Krishna goes from Dwaraka to Hastinapur, are all Dwaraka Vasis, are all Hastinapur Vasis, are all the people in between eternal associates? Not necessary. They are certainly special and fortunate to be there where Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is patitpavan, we say. Now if everybody around Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is his associate, is his eternal associate, then they are already pavan.
Then how is he being patitpavan? Everybody is pure, then his mission itself will be defeated. If we say that, oh Chaitanya Mahaprabhu went to South India, all the people you saw, they were already his associates. He didn't purify them anyway.
What is his potency? So I would say that there are some people who are his eternal associates. But not everyone. And even his eternal associates, they don't necessarily, even their bodies don't necessarily act as if they are spiritual bodies.
That means the body acts in a way that is required for the reciprocation of the Leela. So whatever it is. So Mother Krishna's body can produce milk.
Krishna, when he commits mischief, sometimes he passes urine. So is that a material body? No. Krishna is doing that for the purpose of Leela.
So basically the spiritual body is, rather than going into the technicality, I'll conclude the answer with the purpose. What do we mean by spiritual? What do we mean by material? That which is used for serving Krishna is spiritual. That which is used for personal enjoyment, that is material.
So if for serving Krishna, the body's physical mechanism plays a role. Say, Krishna gets a headache. Then the gopis give their dust.
Now how can Krishna get a headache? The spiritual world is free from old age, disease and death. Krishna is the one who frees us from that. How will Krishna get headache? That's a Leela.
So if some physical mechanism of the material body is required for enhancing Krishna's pastimes, that will be manifest according to the arrangement of Yoga Maya. So we differentiate between the spiritual material at a functional level. There's a philosophical differentiation that matter is unconscious, it is temporary, all that.
Spirit is Satchitananda. That is fine. Philosophically we have to have that differentiation.
No doubt. This is the body, this is the soul. But functionally we have to focus on the purpose.
If we start getting too much into the analysis, suppose there is a joke in the class and before laughing, am I laughing for Krishna's pleasure or am I laughing for my pleasure? If we start doing like that, okay, it's related to Krishna's philosophy. Just laugh and don't worry so much. So if we go too much into this, one point about argumentation, this argumentation they say is paralysis by analysis.
Paralysis by analysis, they give the example, there was a graceful centipede, a thousand-legged insect or whatever, creature, it danced very gracefully. And then there was a bird who couldn't dance at all. And the bird was very envious of the centipede.
So he says to the centipede, you dance so nicely. No, I want to understand how you dance. So he says, after you put your 66th foot down, when do you put the 67th foot or do you put the 68th foot? Originally I put my 66th, 67th and he kept asking questions like this and the centipede, should I put this foot down, should I put this foot down, should I put this, he just got so caught in thought, he couldn't dance anymore after that.
So like that, in Bhakti, if we just philosophically analyse the difference between the body and the soul, understand the spiritual material, but functionally, if we get too much into analysis, is this material, is this spiritual, we'll get in trouble. Just focus on, is this serving Krishna? That whatever the Vajivasis are doing, they are completely devoted to serving Krishna. Even in our day-to-day life, if we are taking care of family responsibilities, we are doing our job, at a functional level, if we think, oh, this is material, we will be half-hearted about doing it.
This is spiritual, let me do it. No, if you are doing it in the mood of service, it's spiritual. Functionally, we don't have to differentiate too much.
We try to cultivate the intention of serving Krishna for his pleasure and just do what has to be done. Okay. So, thank you very much.
Shloprabhupādakī gaurabhakta-vindakī tā gaurapremanandayī.