Developing an inclusive spiritual community, The Monk’s Podcast 136 with Shikshashtakam Prabhu

Podcast: Video:

Hare Krishna Shiksha Shagam Prabhu.

Welcome to the Monks Podcast. It has been a long cherished desire for me to have you here. In fact, the Monks Podcast is my way of continuing to have the association of the many devotees who inspire me.

So I'm very grateful that somehow I could persuade you or even compel you to join after repeated reminders. Thank you for making time today. Well, I should confess that, you know, I've been watching all these podcasts.

I don't think I might have missed even a single one. And, you know, especially performing my yoga in the morning, I listen to your podcast. And I must say that, you know, I have become such a big fan.

I'm already a big fan of yours. But after watching, hearing this podcast, you know, it's like on another level that you have brought out the present Krishna consciousness in our society and its relevance and how to understand, how to explore it. It's phenomenal, the service which you're doing.

So I thought that, you know, I can't be such a miserly person that I just keep, you know, taking from you and not giving back anything in return. So this is, you know, a small way I'm trying to, you know, pay you back, you know, for what I'm receiving from you. Thank you.

It's encouraging to hear that I'm having some service to you. Yes, the Monks Podcast, I feel that it's also two, three things. One is that it just gives an example of Guhyamakhyati Pruchyati, which is often not seen in the public domain.

Another thing is that, as you said, we can discuss many aspects of Krishna consciousness, which we don't get to discuss in our normal classes. Yeah. Also in that forum, devotees through the forum of discussion rather than a class, lot of points come out, which would not come out in a class format.

So both in terms of the topic, the exploration of the topic and the very mode of interaction between two people, two devotees, I think it has its own distinctive appeal. In fact, you know, our scriptures, it's nothing but discussion, like if you look into Bhagavad Gita, Ashwamedha Bhagavatam, it's more or less like, you know, one-to-one discussion going on. And then, you know, it was benefited.

It was like the original podcast, you know, Bhagavad Gita can be the original podcast. Good way of putting it. Yes.

And the Upanishads are even more so. In fact, all our scriptures are like that broadly. Yes.

So I thought we could discuss something about, say, your particular service in terms of developing a vibrant spiritual community in which is, I feel, too many things distinctive. But one is that it's already a sacred city, Nasik, where you're developing it. So one aspect would be what are the challenges and opportunities in that? And second is found that overall there is a very inclusive and welcoming mood where people can practise Bhakti at their pace.

So I will, I remember in one of our meetings, you mentioned to me that you felt that the community would be a success if devotees stop judging each other and treating each other harshly, but everybody in the community feels welcome and warm. So that was, I talked with leaders across the world. Not many devotees, temple leaders would mention that as their primary definition of what would be the success of the community.

So that was very revealing about your personal focus and inspiring also about how a community can develop. So I thought we'll talk about like developing an inclusive spiritual community in a sacred city. Yes, perfect.

Thank you. So maybe we can start a little bit with how you were introduced to Krishna Consciousness and how you eventually came to be the leader of Nasik project. Could you tell something about it? First of all, I'm not a leader over here.

I'm just a representative of Radha Gopinath temple sent over here. So I'm just trying to share whatever I've been blessed with in my growing up in Krishna Consciousness. Under, you know, the wonderful tutelage of especially Radhanath Swami and of course, you know, all senior Vaishnavas, Godbrothers over there.

As far as my coming to Krishna Consciousness, well, my brother Swarup Damodar Prabhu, he was, you know, already introduced to Radha Gopinath temple. This is way back in 92-93. That time he was studying in Bombay and he got introduced first, Bhakti Rasamrith Maharaj.

And then he introduced all of us, myself, my mother, my sister, you know, to Radha Gopinath temple. Was that the time when you were in the Air Force or it was before or after that? Yeah, this was when I was in the Air Force. So I was posted in Delhi.

And so I used to visit Bombay and of course, Khopoli where I grew up. So that time because Swarup Damodar Prabhu was living in Bombay. So, you know, we would, in fact, this is something which might sound silly, but whenever this is, you know, before we both came to Krishna Consciousness, whenever I would come to Bombay, so we would have like our own, you know, party, both of us together, you know, eating in Bombay, watching movies, going around, because we would meet like once in six months or seven, eight months like that whenever I would get leave and I would come home.

So first we would hang around and then we would go to Khopoli and then spend time. But then when he got in touch with Radha Gopinath temple, so he like spiritualised that party, you know. He took me to the temple and we had nice prasadam at the temple and all of that.

So that was like the basic introduction. So were you already from the upbringing was somewhat religiously or spiritually inclined? Yes, because born in a pious Brahmin Hindu family, Marwadi. In fact, my both grandfathers, the only thing they did was, my Nanaji was Bhagwat Tathakar, in fact, and he left his body in a very spiritual way.

He was, he would, you know, just like we talk of an ashram, wherein the Brahmanas would impart spiritual knowledge to the Vaishyas. So in his village in Rajasthan, so that's what he would do. All these big Marwadi businessmen like Poddars, Ruhiyas, Birlas, and so they would have him over every day to speak Bhagwat.

And he would, you know, speak Bhagwat to them. So that was his, like, that was that his main active, main profession? That's it. That's it.

And, you know, they would just take care of, you know, his day to day expenses like groceries and everything. It was a very, you know, what I was told, it was still that pure Varanasi style of living. Okay.

And this was, so you knew your grandfather or great grandfather, you're saying? So you knew him also personally? Great grandfather, not great grandfather, grandfather. So you knew him also? Well, I knew my father's father, but my mother's, my maternal grandfather, somehow I couldn't meet him. He left quite early.

Oh, okay. He knew that he's about to leave his body and, you know, he was on his way to one of the homes to recite the Bhagwat. He asked the rickshaw to stop.

He got down on the rickshaw and started chanting Bhagwat Gita and Bhagwat Shlokas. And that's how he left his body. Oh, really? On the road? By chanting? Yeah.

That's remarkable. Like Prabhupada said, I would like to die on a battlefield while preaching about Krishna. So it's like that.

He was going out for sharing Krishna Katha and that's when he left. Yeah. So there was, because of that, a legacy of discussing Krishna Katha in your family thereafter also? Yes.

And my mother specifically, she was very, very much spiritually inclined. She always wanted a guru in her life. And, you know, of course, now moving, my father moved to Bombay and, you know, lifestyle changes and, you know, your priorities change.

But still the basic spiritual culture, my mom, she was the one who always inculcated in us. And in fact, she used to attend all these Bhagwat Saptas whenever it would happen because my father was working in Birla's company. So Birla's, you know, mostly they were Marwadi's who were employees and they would always keep Bhagwat Saptas like that, you know, on a regular basis.

So my mother was always very inclined to anyone who would come to give any Katha, she would be there to attend and she would take me along also, take us along, you know, myself and my other siblings. And also, I remember, I used to attend these Chinmaya Mission classes, you know, Bal Vihar classes in my childhood. In fact, Chinmayanand Swami himself would personally come and he would, you know, speak to us.

He was very good at telling stories. So he would spend time with us, Chinmayanand Swami. So on a regular basis, that was also one thing, you know, reciting Bhagavad Gita Shlokas and Mahabharata stories like that, you know, since childhood.

So we were quite, you know, in touch with, you know, something or the other. That's interesting. So it is almost multiple sources within the family, from other spiritual teachers and the overall culture also.

In fact, my mother, every day she would read just the text of Bhagavad Gita. She had this from Gita Press. And later on, we found out that it was actually the translation of Baldevidya Bhushan picture, you know, the copy she had.

She didn't even know. She just got it from Gita Press and every day she would read the Bhagavad Gita. In fact, you know, I remember once when I was visiting my mother in Vrindavan, she was listening to one of my lectures.

And then she said that, so do you think that you are giving all these Gita lectures so all credit goes to you for this? I said, definitely not. And she said that when you were in my womb, so I used to recite, you know, Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavatam, Ramayana, all of that on a regular basis. So you should, you know, and she, she was, you know, in a very sweet way.

She said that, you know, you should definitely share the credit with me also. It's like Dhruv Maharaj and his mother. So how is Baldevidya Bhushan's Gita? That's not that common, isn't it that way? That's remarkable.

Yeah. So later on, when, you know, we came to Krishna Consciousness, that Bhagavad Gita copy was still there somewhere at home. And then I think one of us happened to see the name Baldevidya Bhushan written on it.

And that's the only one Baldevidya Bhushan. Yeah, of course, as far as I know. So then what was it, if you already had that background, was there something specific that attracted you to Krishna Consciousness? Well, you know, when I was growing up, you know, this Mahabharata serial of D. R. Chopra.

So that was like, you know, the audio visual effect, which all of us had. And especially, you know, the personality of Krishna, the one who enacted the role of Krishna. You know, the way he was depicting Krishna was something which was very attractive to all of us.

Yeah, well, you can say it was a bit superficial, just, you know, a TV serial. But the whole mood of, you know, catching the attractive feature of Krishna as, you know, through that Mahabharata serial, that caught us. And then, you know, I think it was just, you know, a paving way to come to the real essence, you know, of Krishna Consciousness.

So that was like, in fact, my mother also, she had approached someone, you know, some guru. And she was given the mantra Om Namah Shivaya to chant. But somehow she was so inclined and attracted to Krishna.

So she, on her own, she changed it to Om Namah Bhagavate Vasudeva. So, yeah, there was some, you know, this inclination, you know, for Krishna, especially, you know, the Mahabharata Krishna like that. So you're saying that that was the foundation which attracted you, which made you more attracted to Krishna Consciousness, as Krishna has presented in the Krishna Conscious Movement.

Or how did that ready you in a sense? Yeah, so that was like, you know, like the beginning of being attracted to the personality of Krishna. A person who seems to be so perfect, a person who seems to be flawless, you know, like that. And who is, you know, like a multifaceted personality.

He's intelligent, he's clever, he's naughty, you know, everything like that. So all of these facets of Krishna was especially, you know, for myself, I can say that, you know, whenever I would watch that character of Krishna. So this was the picture, you know, that, you know, you cannot find any loophole in him, you know, this person like that.

So that was just the beginning. And I remember one incident in my Balvihar classes, there was a drawing competition. So this was, you know, when I was, I think, seventh or eighth standard.

So there was this one picture of Krishna, which I drew. And this was from our BBT paintings. It's like just Krishna, you must have seen this picture of Krishna, very famous.

He's not playing his flute, he's holding the flute. So he's looking as if he's looking at the camera. And he's holding the flute, just like teenage Krishna.

Very beautiful picture. So I took that, of course, I didn't know that it's from ISKCON, it's from BBT. So I took that as, you know, in the drawing competition to paint.

And somehow I won that. Oh, okay. Because there were no other good painters.

I'm not a painter, but, you know, whatever little I could do. So that was something, you know, that particular picture of Krishna, it stuck in my mind. Yeah, it got me the first prize also.

And I was very much attracted to that particular picture of Krishna. So this was when I was in seventh or eighth standard, you know, for the Bal Bihar drawing competition. And then, you know, fast forward, I've joined the IFOs.

And, you know, I'm posted. And this is in the 90s now. 91, around 91, 92.

And where we were staying, like the boys hostel, for the air force officers hostel. Once I saw, as I was going towards the officers mess, I saw in a dustbin, the same picture, you know, on a greeting card. And it was somebody might have thrown in the dustbin, that picture.

It was exactly the same picture which I, you know, I drew back then in my childhood. So I didn't have the heart to just leave it in the dustbin. So I went back to the dustbin.

I picked it up. I went to my locker. I put it in my locker.

And I said, OK, so somehow, you know, the old memories of this picture has come about. And the Lord has somehow, you know, Krishna has come back in a maybe slightly mystical way. So I said I should offer him something.

So I started to offer him incense. And I remember exactly one week after that, I was introduced to Radha Gopinath temple. And then, you know, somehow, a remote connection of that.

This was which year? Ninety. Ninety three, I was introduced. And this happened around that same time.

This incident happened around the same time. It's amazing. So it seems you also were quite, not only did you have a lot of spiritual and cultural impressions, you also had quite a set of hobbies, isn't it? You were a painter.

I believe you also were… No, no, no. I was… It must have been some good if you won a competition. But apart from that, I believe you also were a sports player, isn't it? You were a table tennis player, isn't it? Yeah, initially, I learned table tennis.

And you went to quite a high level in that, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, yes. As far as table tennis, I played district level.

I had won district level. And then from there on, switched to lawn tennis. And then when I was in the Air Force, then, you know, I was selected in the Air Force team.

And then later on, in the services team, which is like they play the nationals. So services team, they play on a national level. So there on, I took the professional route for lawn tennis.

Oh, so you did both in one sense, both table tennis and lawn tennis, both. Yeah, initially, it began with table tennis. But then, you know, my coach said that you can't play both.

You have to stick to one, either table tennis or lawn tennis. So I had to choose. So I chose lawn tennis.

It seems some people are blessed with, you could say, a problem of plenty. So you had lots of talents. So you already had that appreciation for Krishna and then the beautiful picture of Krishna.

So when you came to the temple, was it through some Sunday programme or some special course or what was it? Sunday programme, I still remember Maharaj, Radhanath Maharaj's Sunday feast class. I still remember the title of that class, Fire of Harina. And Maharaj was speaking about Draupadi.

Interesting, you know, that point. It's like, you know, the first lecture of Radhanath Maharaj and, you know, the kind of examples. I was so intrigued that, you know, this person doesn't look Indian.

And, you know, how does he know so much? How does he know so much about, you know, these stories from our scriptures? So he was giving example of how the fire of Harina, just like, you know, the flames. They are like, you know, the arms of the fire going up. Similarly, when Draupadi was calling out for Krishna, both her arms were going up.

And, you know, so he connected, you know, the title of that lecture, Fire of Harina, he was connected. He was connecting Harina with, you know, the fire of Harina, Sankirtan. And Draupadi's arms going up, just like the flames of fire.

Yeah, another incident which I remember, when that time there were no emails. So Swaroop Dandabu used to write letters. And so he, when he wrote to me that, you know, I should find out some Iskcon temple there in Delhi and try to go visit, see, you know, how it's like.

Because he had started going in Bombay. So I looked for and I remember that time the Delhi temple was a small one. It was not the big temple.

This was in 93, yeah. So the small temple, Radha Parthasarathy. And as soon as I walked in, I saw this American Brahmachari and he was distributing Bhagavad Gita.

And, you know, he was, he just caught my eye. Again, you know, so I had the background of, you know, being in the armed forces and how you look at foreigners, you know, being, being. That's interesting.

So I was like, a foreigner, you know, a white bodied American and holding Bhagavad Gita and wearing saffron robes and all of that. So I immediately approached him and I was just for five minutes, I was just looking at him, you know, the way he was speaking. Is it for real? Is it fake? What is it? So I asked him that, you know, what brought about this change in you? And he just showed me the Bhagavad Gita.

This book brought about the change in me. Now, again, the Bhagavad Gita, the Bal Vihar classes, all the Bhagavad Gita shlokas, which we used to recite, you know, all of that, you know, started to surface up. And my mother reciting every day Bhagavad Gita.

So he was speaking from the Bhagavad Gita. And then one statement which he made that, you know, like kind of hit my ego. So he said, Bhagavad Gita, it's your book.

You must be knowing this. It's from your country. You must be knowing.

I don't know what inspired him to say that, you know, that he was talking about country. You know, I didn't go in my uniform. I was dressed as a civilian.

But he spoke about the country. This book is from your country. You should be knowing this, right? And I felt like so ashamed that, you know, here is a foreigner, an American, and he's here reminding me.

And that time, you know, like kind of silently within myself, I decided that no matter what happens, you know, I should study this book. You know, if possible, you know, I would like to also, you know, preach about this book. So that was, you know, that I don't know who was that Brahmachari.

But that one Brahmachari, he kind of created an impact. Oh, so you never met him afterwards. You didn't come to know who he was also.

That's remarkable. Yeah. Okay.

Must have been Eklavya Prabhu. I don't know because Eklavya Prabhu was the lot, you know, in Delhi that time. Oh, okay.

Must have been. I don't know because. True.

This is amazing. So then, so this is how you were introduced. And then you decided to, what inspired you specifically to join? It is just the desire to, like you said, you wanted to study and teach the Gita.

Was that the motivation primarily? Yeah. Yeah. And also because, you know, the kind of competition which I was seeing, you know, those who were like I was, I was selected as a fighter pilot.

So those who were below me, they wanted to become like me. Those who were like me, they wanted to go above me. So I saw that kind of, you know, that race, rat race, you would call it.

And it was going endless. So that was like something not so significant. But yes, it was there.

But is there something more to, you know, life? Oh, okay. And then, you know, everything, they just fell into place. These kind of questions and then, you know, associations, especially when I saw Bhakti Samarth Maharaj, you know, I was, I was so impressed that here is, you know, a person who is so young, who is so educated, who is so talented, who could have done anything he wanted.

But he chose this and, you know, everything, whatever he presents is. So what attracted me to Krishna Consciousness was, was the logic. Oh, okay.

More than, you know, the big temples or, you know, or even the prasad, what attracted me was the way logically it was presented. Especially when I would discuss with Bhakti Samarth Maharaj and he would, that he could sense that, you know, this person more than, more than speaking deep philosophy or any other kind of, you know, rituals of Krishna Consciousness, he kind of is inclined towards understanding the logic. Why? Why do we do whatever we do? You know, that kind of, those kind of things.

Yeah, it seems Bhakti Samarth Maharaj has inspired practically an entire generation of devotees, Radhe Shyam Prabhu, Gaurang Prabhu, you and quite a, it's a remarkable. Yeah, I also remember that when I heard his classes, the logic was so simple, yet so, so convincing, that was striking. So, I know, when I think I met you first, you may not remember it, it is, you were well-known and celebrated as a personal servant of Sadanath Maharaj.

And in that role, we met and talked a few times. Then for you, I believe it was, it was a radical change in your service when you were sent to Nasik. Of course, you are doing some preach, you are doing a good amount of preaching in Mumbai.

But were you already building some kind of community in Mumbai with some congregation programmes? Or how did that, how did that happen that you were sent to, how did that service change happen for you? Coming to Nasik? Yeah, I mean, both ways, you know, the idea of being a community developer or that was, was that something which you are already having some experience while you are in Mumbai? Well, yeah, I was doing both, you know, our congregational preaching as well as college preaching. Okay. And so, so because I, I was doing this Borivali programme, which was in Hindi.

Okay. So that time, not many of our preachers were preaching in Hindi in Mumbai. And so, because I had the background of, you know, speaking Hindi as well.

So, therefore, I was given, you know, some of the programmes which were in Hindi. And then, Govind Prabhu, in fact, he called me. At that time, you know, I was fully packed with like, you know, five days in a week, my programmes were on English, Hindi, congregation programme, college programme, then, you know, meetings, council meetings and all of that, everything was going on.

So he, he asked me that, do you mind, you know, visiting Nasik once in a while? So it started off like that. And I didn't even know which direction Nasik is. Like, I was so much into Mumbai.

Oh, really? So which year roughly? This was when Govind Prabhu approached me. This was in 2006. Okay.

Yeah. So more than a decade you were there in the ashram. Before, Ramas Prabhu used to come.

Okay. And Ramas Prabhu's locker was, you know, in the same line with a few lockers from my locker. And I used to see Ramas Prabhu, you know, three days in a week.

And he would go to Nasik and come back. And I would wonder, you know, where this person goes, you know, three days in a week, he's not to be seen. And then, you know, I always thought that, you know, Nasik is like a forlorn place, you know.

I'm not meant for, you know, any place outside of Mumbai. Okay. But then when Govind Prabhu asked me, so I asked, why me? So he said, they need someone, you know, who can preach in English, who can preach in Hindi, and who can also manage more than anything else, who can also manage.

So that's how then I couldn't say no to Govind Prabhu. So I said, okay, I'll try. So initially, it was just Saturday, Sunday, weekend over there.

But then I loved the weather here in Nasik. And one thing which attracted me was, you know, the challenge. You know, having been trained in the armed forces, you know, we were always taught that, you know, newer and newer challenges, they make you grow.

So I saw this difference that Radha Gopinath temple, everything was like set for you. When it comes to finances or all the other departments, everything, you don't have to worry. You just have to go preach.

That's it. The only thing which you have to worry is whether your notes are, you know, properly. You know, for your lecture, that's it.

But here in Nasik, everything, you know, the finances, you know, no brahmacharis at that point of time. So, you know, to have started a brahmachari ashram and to take care of, you know, the grahasthas, their problems. And, you know, whatever little bits, the temple structure, you know, how to manage that, you know.

So I really like the challenge that, you know, it will help me grow. Okay. That's amazing.

So then from 2006, since then you have been almost 15 years consistently been in Nasik, isn't it? So 2006, I was shuttling in Mumbai like that. And 2008, then I moved. I decided that, you know, I can't do this, you know, Bombay and Nasik both.

Because Nasik started to grow and it required me to be here more. In fact, I'll tell you one funny thing. This was in 2003.

It was Kumbh Mela. And that time I was serving Radhanath Maharaj. And this was the first time when I came to Nasik along with Radhanath Maharaj as a servant.

So we were booked on this Tapovan Express. And I was carrying all the luggage of Maharaj and it was the AC coach. And I didn't know that this train, Nasik is not the last stop.

So Tapovan Express goes further till Nanded. I didn't know that Nasik is not the last stop. I thought Nasik is the last stop.

And, you know, Radhanath Maharaj, whenever he gets down from a train like that, he allows all the passengers to first get down and then slowly he'll move out. And the train would stop only for five minutes. An AC coach and everyone, whatever little congregation over here, and they were all ready to welcome Maharaj with kirtan and all on the platform.

And by the time Maharaj got down, the train started. And I was left inside the coach along with all his luggage, you know, like at least three big bags like that. And everyone, as soon as Maharaj got down, everyone just, you know, started to, you know, follow behind Maharaj.

And no one, no one even thought of that, you know, where is his luggage or, you know, is there someone else along with him? And, you know, the train, it took momentum, it started. And the first thing I did, you know, I didn't realise that, you know, this train, where it's going. Then I asked, you know, where is this train? What's the last stop? And they said that, you know, Nanded is the last stop.

So I threw the bags first on the platform. And then people realised that. And then I was fearing that, you know, somebody shouldn't come and just pick up and, you know, steal away Maharaj's bags.

And by the time it was for me to now jump off the train, the train had left the platform. And everyone was shouting at, you know, Maharaj, what are you doing? You'll die. Don't jump, don't jump, like that.

Oh, God. But somehow, you know, my training, it helped me. It came handy.

So I jumped on my force. Fortunately, on the other track, there was no train coming. And, you know, I was on my force.

And as I was getting up, this was like, you know, the first entry into Nasik. It seems adventure follows you wherever you go. And as I was getting up, you know, on that railway track, I just, you know, spoke to myself, never, ever I'm going to come to this place again.

And, you know, maybe Krishna heard that. And he said, he must have smiled and said, let's see. Oh, God, that's remarkable.

So this was among your first trips, even before you started coming to Nasik weekly? Before that also? It was 2006. So this was 2003, Kumbh Mela. Oh, okay.

Accompanying Maharaj as a servant, you know, to Kumbh Mela. So, when you started coming to Nasik, see, I was, as you know, my parents used to stay in Nasik and I was, you could say, introduced in Pune by Gaurasundar Prabhu and then also I met Shri Paramhamsa Prabhu in Nasik. At that time, we just had a small flat where he was just visiting and occasionally doing some, weekly doing some programmes.

From there, now we have a beautiful temple with a significant number of people coming both on Sundays as well as on Wednesday evenings. Of course, the COVID pandemic is different. But still, so it's been a significant growth.

I believe you have several, more than nearly a several hundred people come for the Geeta Amrut and the Sunday classes, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's almost about, your temple hall capacity is 300, but quite often on most festivals, it's much more than that. You have those people outside.

Outside and screen, you know, up on the terrace. So people are all over. Oh, so it's been quite a significant growth.

Now, I haven't seen, especially for a weekday, to have a programme where several hundred people come. That's remarkable. So, maybe you can tell something about your journey from there.

So when you came to Nasik, what were your thoughts when you're told to start coming there? So when did you actually start basing yourself? 2008, was it? a year or two? So from 2006 to 2007-08, I was, I was quite regular. And so I, I just thought that, you know, I have to first get everyone together, you know, through introducing the culture of hearing and chanting together. So I was doing Bhagwat Saptas.

I did Bhagwat Saptas also over here. And then every festival like Ram Navami or Krishna Janmashtami, one week Katha, like that. So a lot of Kathas I began with.

And that's how trying to get everyone together. Okay. So that, you know, I knew that once everyone comes together, then, you know, I can, I can, I can get a support of, of, of some sincere devotees who can help me out to spread.

Okay. So that was just in my mind, you know, to just, to just get to know everyone, you know, who is there in the congregation and the other pious families. You know, these Bhagwat Kathas were also to attract many pious Hindu families here in our state.

So that, you know, I get to know that how much are they inclined that, you know, how much are they willing to commit to, to support Rupa's mission. Like that. So initially it started with, you know, just because there were no deities there.

So we only had small Gaur Nikaya. There were no deities. So this was another thing in my mind to somehow get enough Brahmacharis and congregation devotees so that we can get permission to have our own installed deities.

Because many of the families, they would, they would not understand, you know, who are these two personalities, you know, Gaur Nikaya. They would just, because, you know, to explain to them that they are the incarnations in Kali Yuga, same Krishna and Bhagram. So many of the Hindu family, they relate to Ram or Krishna, you know, that you, either you should have Ram Darbar or Radhakrishna, like that.

We are used to his form means Radhakrishna, Radhakrishna, like that. So yes, I, that was there in my mind to somehow have our own deities, which will also not just attract new people, but also the existing congregation. They will, they will have like, you know, a central figure or reason for them to come again and again to the temple.

That's true. In one sense, if we see Prabhupada's outreach also, he did give a very central focus to to having a temple in his outreach in India. In the West, it was more of to have some structure where you can have kirtans and other things, get for people to come together and have kirtans and hear some talks.

But Prabhupada did give a significant trust on temples. So it does seem that a proper temple with deities, you need them for being able to do a significant outreach. Isn't it? Yeah, especially, you know, a holy place like this where people already they are inclined towards, you know, doing certain rituals in a certain way and, you know, offering themselves at different levels, you know, to the deities.

So holy place always, you know, holy place means temples. This means, you know, the deities within those temples. So, they would be asking this question that, okay, what's your speciality? Because very few you'll find that will be accepted directly to the philosophy and hearing and chanting.

So initially, they come to the temple. Okay, so they have beautiful deities. Let's go.

Let's have darshan. And then once they see that, you know, along with the darshan, you know, there is also darshan shastra. The entire package it works like that.

So how much did Nasik already being a holy place affect the way you say shared bhakti? In one sense, we could say that we have places that are primarily defined as holy places like say Vrindavan or Mayapur, even Jagannath Puri. Their whole defining identity is as a holy place. And even we could say to some extent Tirupati, Pandharpur, where also we have temples.

And Nasik is known as a holy place. But I don't think that is in the Indian imagination and popular conception that is not like the sole defining identity of Nasik. Nasik is also seen as a growing hub of development and other things.

So how much did the fact that Nasik is a holy place of Lord Ram, how much did that shape the way you did your development of the community there, conducted the programme and things like that? Well, I can just say that personally, of course, you know, it's Lord Ram's place. And personally, of course, I can say that influenced me. But as far as for spreading the movement over here, not so much because Nasik is so well connected with Mumbai.

And like you said, it's a growing city. In fact, you know, I was shocked to see many of the hoardings where I read Nasik, you know, Nasik, the wine city because of the graves and the wineries over here. So many Nasik became famous as the wine city.

In fact, my own uncle, he was in one of the wineries over here and he was like, you know, the person who would give seminars on, you know, the different kinds of wines and the wine tasting team he was on. And once he came for one of my seminars and I was surprised to see him, my father's elder brother, you know, seeing him after like decades and he was there. He got to know that, you know, I'm in Nasik now.

So he came and then he was talking about that, how he also gives talks on, you know, on wine. That's interesting. I never knew.

Yeah, I know grapes are big there, but obviously it's a straightforward connection from there, but I never thought of it that way. So then there was some, you know, senior congregation devotees were there, you know, so they were overhearing as he was talking to me. So I was, so they were wondering that who is this person, you know.

So I said to them that, you know, so he speaks about wine as I speak about divine. One thing which I noticed that you, you have a very attractive way to play with words, you know, spontaneously. I am no one close to you.

You are, you are the master of that. I don't know. See, mine is more of a sharing philosophical wisdom through carefully thought out play of words, but it's not so much spontaneously bringing out things like that.

I'm not sure that happens with me so much, but that's wonderful. So, so much, it's not, it's not so much seen now as, as a Holy place, only few still the old Gnostic, you know, still it has and whenever Kumbh Mela happens, otherwise, or people go to Trambakeshwar, Trambakeshwar is in fact 35 kilometres outskirts of Nasir, it's not like, you cannot call it technically Nasir. So, otherwise, no, it's, it's like any other city.

Okay. So, overall, so when you said that you initially came, so, so there were no specific challenges or even opportunities that came just because it's a Holy Dham. So, of course, I feel that as compared to Mumbai, Gnostic atmosphere must have been significantly different in the kind of people who came or not much.

Yeah, it was, it was different in the sense that Bombay, you know, Raghugopinath temple, the temple crowd is more like South Bombay crowd and more modern kind of people. So, also, language was another thing that, you know, over here, I was not speaking in Marathi. I understand Marathi, but I can't speak in Marathi.

So, now, my Hindi also was not like, you know, the Maharashtrian Bombay kind of Hindi. So, my Hindi was more like the North Indian Hindi and that also, I had to curtail a little bit so that people could relate to and understand especially when, you know, you use spiritual terms, you know. That's true.

This is a funny incident. One congregation devotee, after, you know, he had invited me over for lunch and he asked me, Oh, God. That's such an ordinary word in one sense.

Yeah. So, such an ordinary word. So, then I realised that, you know, I have to also, you know, tailor my language, you know, over here.

So, so, language of course, it's a very important tool, when it comes to conveying the message and making people, you know, like, relate to the philosophy and what they can practise once they go back home, like that. True. Yes.

So, so, you mentioned that you had various Katha programmes, but overall, as you started developing the community, in one sense, getting more people to join and participate. So, in general, what are the broad challenges? I have been spending a good amount of time the last few years in Western outreach. So, I know what are the typical challenges we as a movement face in attracting Western people.

In one sense, as compared to the rest of the world, we are quite successful in India, as compared to the rest of the world, but still, it's that we are attracting a significant number of people. At the same time, people also have many preconceptions about us, which sometimes obstruct them from coming close to us. So, in general, in, say, attracting audience to come to Krishna consciousness, in, say, in Nasik in particular, in general, in Mumbai or in India, what are the typical challenges which you feel we need to address, or which did you focus on addressing? Yeah.

One thing is that when people will come for our programmes, initially, you know, the entire package of our programme, like, you know, kirtan, then we have, you know, lecture, then we have prasadam or dancing kirtan, and the whole ambience of the temple, you know, that's something which initially, you know, families, when they come, they really, they, they see this is a happening place, this is a happening temple, this is not just, you know, a place you come and, you know, have darshan and just, you know, it's like any other temple you visit, ring the bell, have darshan, have some prayer, and leave. But then, you know, they want to come back to get that experience, especially kirtan and prasad, you know, initially lecture is not so much, but then when they see that, oh, there is something, you know, serious going on, which means, you know, these people, they are not just into giving us a one-day experience, but something which, you know, they are also practising on a day-to-day basis. So, a system wherein you can have them relate to their level.

That's the first challenge. What is their level exactly? Like, you know, I remember one of my talks and I was mentioning the five levels of sadhaka. It begins with durachara.

So, the lowest level, the lowest level is durachara. So, once one realises, you know, about the durachara, then comes the lachar. That's beautiful.

And then, and then after lachar comes vichar. Then you start to think about, okay, where did I go wrong? What am I doing wrong? That's vichar. And the fourth is called sadhachara.

So, from the lowest durachara, you come to the fourth, which is sadhachara. And then the final fifth is prachara. So, durachara, lachar, vichar, sadhachara and prachara.

I was thinking whether I could get some rhyming words in English for this, but I don't think I can get it on the word. You know, you can say valueless, helpless, but then you move to thoughtful, careful, cultureful, vigorful, something like that, but that's five levels. Yeah, just like, you know, we speak about these, I think those six levels that what is Krishna, you know, the six concentric circles and how when someone comes to Krishna consciousness, the outermost circle is what is Krishna, you know, comes with that question.

Okay, what is Krishna? What are these Hari Krishnas up to? What is Krishna like? So that question and then from there, when they attend a programme and they have darshan of the deities or have prasadam, you hear about Krishna. So the next is, okay, I like Krishna. So from what is Krishna, I like Krishna.

Then from liking Krishna, okay, I choose Krishna which means, you know, I start to develop love for Krishna and then the next is I follow Krishna, which is a difficult one. Yeah, so what is Krishna? I like Krishna. Then, you know, I love Krishna, I trust Krishna, I follow Krishna and then, you know, finally, Krishna becomes my life and Krishna becomes my mission.

That's beautiful. So, when you see people, they, you know, crossing these levels. So sometimes some people might take a long time just liking Krishna.

Some people might take even more longer time trusting Krishna. Okay, I may like Krishna but do I trust Krishna? The trusting means like, you know, changing, you know, not just rearranging the furniture at home, making an altar, but also changing your lifestyle, your, you know, your entire family setup. You know, that's like people really, when they start trusting Krishna, that okay, you know, I'm going to change the way we live.

I'm going to change, you know, even my career options or, you know, the parenting, how, you know, the parenting is to be done for the kids or, you know, even, you know, what kind of shopping we do, where do we go on holidays and these are all, you know, family decisions, day-to-day family decisions which people, they change or they make it Krishna conscious because they start trusting Krishna. So, trusting Krishna. So, you know, taking them through all these levels and, you know, giving them.

broadly speaking, three things which I was making sure that they should get. One is spiritual instructions. The second is they should, they should see examples of not just examples from the pages of Bhagavatam or Mahabharata or Ramayana but living examples which means they can see, okay, someone from my own, you know, residential complex or someone who is also in my same company where I'm working is also following this.

So, living examples. One is spiritual instructions. Second is living example and third is spiritual experience.

So, three things, you know, these are simple things which, you know, any family or few families when they start getting these things, then, you know, they start to grow, then they start to show interest that, okay, you know, I'm getting some spiritual experience. I'm, I'm, I'm seeing people who are following in their lives and I'm also getting a spiritual experience of following that. Whatever that experience could be, something very small for them like, okay, you know, every day offering food to the Lord, you know.

So, initially, they get, they get an experience, oh, you know, when they, initially, I've seen families, you know, when they report to me that, we have started offering food, you know, we have an altar, small altar, we have started offering food and then they would come and say that, you know, when we taste that, you know, of course, it's not that they can, you know, remarkably mark the difference that, okay, the taste has changed or something like that. But, you know, the whole feeling that, okay, now, we are doing something and we are, we are, we are doing something on our own, not just coming to the temple and eating prasad, but we're doing something on our own for the Lord. So, that kind of ownership which they get to do something personally for Krishna is, you know, is, is worth celebrating.

Beautiful. Sometimes, they put it in that you go to a temple, then you make your home into a temple and then you make your heart into a temple. So, it's like making your home into a temple is that they're developing, they're personalising their devotion.

So, you said you focused on three things. One is instruction. So, was the instruction itself a part of personalising or personalising is somewhat different? Yeah, personalising, yeah, instruction comes in that also because I have seen that when you are taking care of a congregation, especially in India, a place like Nasik, wherein, you know, the family structures are more, you know, cultured and and they have that kind of respect for sadhus and, you know, that saints come to their house.

So, I've seen that more than just giving big talks. They also look forward for like a personalised sessions with them. And personalised sessions, I'm not saying that, you know, having very philosophical discussions.

Just, you know, like going to their house, recognising, you know, their family, whatever, you know, little bit they're doing, you know, they feel that, okay, that, we also can do something, making them feel that you have the potential to please Krishna. Oh, okay. You can do that from the Vyasasana, but more effective is off the Vyasasana.

Like that. That's true. So, overall, what you're saying is that a temple needs to be a multi, you could say a multi-dimensional resource for enabling people to personally connect with Krishna.

Yeah. So, it could be in terms of getting the knowledge, should also get getting some examples. And so, now, sometimes we see bhakti being presented as a one-zero thing.

That is, somebody's practising, then, okay, you're chanting this way around, now you increase your rounds, and now you come to the level of initiation. And if people don't come to that, then they feel a little pressured too much or neglected and devalued. So, in one sense, it's natural that we want everyone to grow.

But at the same time, that I believe that you don't, you try to avoid that having that one-zero, that people should not be pressured to. So, how do we inspire people to grow without pressuring them? Well, I'll tell you one incident, you know, when I was preaching in Mumbai. So, this one congregation programme I was doing, this was in English in what I was doing, this congregation programme, and this was in HBCU colony.

And I must have done that for almost more than five years. And after that, you know, I was asked to come here and I said, so, you know, there was one gentleman from day one, he was coming. And he came, you know, regularly for almost all the programmes, for all these years, all the five years he was there.

And when it was announced that, you know, so now someone else will be taking over and, you know, I'll be moving to Nasik like that. So, this gentleman, he came to me and he said, Prabhuji, I just want to tell you that, I want to commit from today onwards to chant 16 rams. And he said that, he said that today after this programme, which means around 10 o'clock, 10 p.m., he's going to go and start chanting 16 rams.

So, I said, wow, that's wonderful. And he said, no, I want to tell you why. I said, why? Because all these years, you know, there were so many who were always asking me that, you know, you've been coming since day one in this programme and we never see you chanting.

How many rams do you chant and all these kind of questions. And he said that, you know, I, I was, I was so put off by those questions, whenever these questions, these kind of questions were asked to me about my rounds, number of rounds and chanting and all that. And the one reason I was coming every week regularly for all these years, waiting, when you would also ask that question to me.

Really? Okay. And if you would have also asked me that question, that would have been the last programme I would have attended. Wow.

And I don't know, I didn't do it consciously, but somehow I, I would always meet him after the programme and, you know, we would, you know, talk, sometimes he would ask some questions, I would talk about his family, his work, and, you know, just general discussion. But somehow I remember I never asked him about his chanting, that, you know, how many rounds do you chant and like that. And on his own, he said that, you know, I commit to chant 16 rounds.

so I realised that, you know, see, you can, you can have someone chant whatever number of rounds by, you know, sometimes pushing them to chant, but then you won't get quality people. You, you will, you will always have people who will, will just chant because of some obligation or some fear of you. But if you rely on someone, you know, who volunteers to chant and who is doing it, you know, from the heart.

So it's not just the chanting, it's, it's the entire lifestyle of a sadhaka, which, along with the chanting, you know, comes along. So I have seen that, you know, it's like, it's like holding a pigeon in your arm, in your palm. Pigeon? Okay.

When you hold a pigeon, if you hold it too tight, you might suffocate that pigeon to death. And if you hold it too lightly, the pigeon will fly off. Beautiful metaphor.

Okay. So dealing with, you know, certain people whom you're preaching to, it's like, you know, carefully holding, like holding a pigeon in your, in your palms. So, so, that metaphor itself is beautiful, but in terms of practicality, I think it will depend on each individual teacher's expertise and sensitivity to know when a person is being held too tightly and a person is being loosened.

That's, you know, I was, the first programme that I did in America and Florida, I had gone to university and there was one boy who came for the programme. He's an Indian boy settled in America. So he said that I started because of something that happened in my life.

I had a near-death experience. So I started, I went on a spiritual search. So he mentioned that I've attended some programmes by some Christian preachers, some Muslim Mullahs, even some yoga teachers.

I felt that all of them wanted to convert me and get me to come into their path. But he said that I felt that the way you were presenting, you wanted to help me where you were, where I am. So I think people are also astute.

They sense the pressure, even if it is not overtly exerted, even if it is subtle also, people do sense it. And if it is not there, then they do feel warmth and welcoming attitude that is otherwise not so easily available. Yeah.

Because, you know, if you look into our scriptures, you know, when Arjun was receiving the knowledge from Krishna, it was, it was so much open that, you know, okay, whatever you have heard, now it's up to you. There was no pressure at all of any kind. And we can see that at the same time, it wasn't that Krishna was not emphatic in his presentation.

Krishna was emphatic in presenting Bhagavad Gita, but along with that, Krishna also gave Arjun the freedom, you know, whether he wants to choose or whether he wants to do whatever he wishes, you know. Yeah, here I can do some play of words. I think Krishna was emphatic and empathic.

Yeah. Yeah, I understood where Arjuna was. By the same time, this is the path.

Now, how we want to go, that's up to you. Yeah. So in one sense, an inordinately pushy attitude, not only put people off, but also not representative of the mood of Krishna's teachings.

Exactly. Yeah. So, over the years, what do you, if you look back at the way the community has developed over there, what do you see as the parameters of success or what is it that helps you, that makes you feel satisfied that some service was done or what basically, yeah, that you moved forward in the journey.

What are the parameters that can be used for considering that growth? You know, this was many years ago, there was one, I think it was Brahmachari class given by His Holiness Devamrith Swami or some class which was not like a very official temple class. It was a very closely arranged for devotees kind of class. Okay.

And in that he mentioned a very simple but interesting point. He said that in any community we need the combination of two people. We need the combination, the maturity of the senior devotees and the energy and enthusiasm of the new devotees who have just come.

Okay, good way of putting it. He said generally we find that those who have been in the movement for many years who are matured, who are senior, they lack the enthusiasm and the energy. And those who have just come to Krishna consciousness they have all the energy, all the enthusiasm but they lack the maturity.

So the perfect combination would be the combination of maturity of these seniors and the energy and enthusiasm of a new bhakta. So that struck me you know quite significantly and I always try to look for this combination in order to develop any community whether it is just a small congregation programme or whether it is the congregation all coming to the temple that you know having this combination that maturity and the energy and enthusiasm both then only we grow. We grow in a healthy way.

So that's beautiful. So you could say that in the younger stages people may have a little more zeal to convert and to try to prove that I am right and this is wrong but the seniors will be able to nuance and balance a little bit more. Yeah.

So to have a balance of both you know both kind of devotees in our community it's very much required that's what I think. So you are answering the parameters of success not so much in terms of the quantity of outreach done but in the resources available for outreach. If these are there then the parameters such as say more people coming for programmes or generally in our movement there have been three definitions of success.

How many books distributed, how many devotees made that means initiated or something like that and you know how many temples built or how big a temple is being built. So you are not focussing on those what you are saying is that if you have the right resources those will organically grow. Is that your implication? Yeah.

Like I remember you know I was listening to one lecture of Jagat Maharaj when I was in Vrindavan for some time. This was before I joined Radha Gopinath temple and it was I think it was Prabhupada's disciplines day and many of Prabhupada's disciples at that time he was talking about that we should come out with a book. The book stories of you know so many Prabhupada disciples and now you know grand disciples of Srila Prabhupada how they came to Krishna consciousness and then when it was Jagat Maharaj's turn he said we should also write a book how I stayed in Krishna consciousness.

That's true. Very true. Sometimes I say that it's like when we write about how I came to Krishna consciousness that is like a romance story or a romance movie ending with the happily ever after.

Now we know that it is not going to be happily ever after. There are going to be challenges. Of course some relationships can be much better than others.

But yeah we don't really focus on that much at all. Slowly of course I think devotee care initiatives are growing and Radha Gopinath temple through its counsellor system was a pioneer in that. So yeah if you look into the history of Srila Prabhupada, he was so personal you know whoever was coming.

Prabhupada initially was just focussing on whoever was coming to his programmes. He was focussing on those boys and girls who were coming. And he was nurturing them, he was tutoring them, he was taking care of them in a such in such a personalised way.

And so and then they when they were felt so loved and cared. So they became the resources for Prabhupada you know. They became you know the extended hands and legs for Prabhupada.

So it wasn't that what I see the history of ISKCON. It wasn't that Prabhupada was initially doing extraneous efforts. Yes he had the vision.

Of course he had the vision. But along with that vision what hands-on he was doing was something just taking care of those few boys and girls who were there under him. You know just the other day I was speaking about you know these two words.

One is Niyat and the other is Niyati. So Niyati so Niyat is that your you know attitude. You could say disposition and destiny.

Yeah your intention. Yeah. You have when you have you know intentions are good intentions are clean.

Then Niyati will definitely help. And I was speaking the I was giving the example of Bhima. That Bhima was so powerful and you know in his childhood he never had ill intentions of harming anyone as against Duryodhana who tried to poison Bhima.

So when Duryodhana tried to poison Bhima who you know I believe this was even before they went to Gurukul. When Duryodhana tried to poison Bhima and and then when Duryodhana threw Bhima in Ganga with a plan that okay that you know I poisoned him I finished him and he's gone forever. So Niyati how it worked that Bhima was taken to the Nagaloka and Bhima came out more powerful than what was expected by Duryodhana.

So how Niyat and Niyati they kind of go hand in hand. That's beautiful. In one sense you are saying it's like a as you it's something like karma itself your work the disposition will come back to you eventually to so how are you connecting this with outreach you're saying that that the motivation which will be reflected eventually.

Yeah. So you you are mentioning that how sometimes you know scores they are being focused upon what is the distribution score how many people come for your programmes and how many initiated disciples are there so on and so forth. But rather than you know going for these numbers if we just have okay whoever is coming giving our everything to them and then we see that when we are sincerely trying to give whatever we can for the people who are under you right now in front of you then definitely you know they will become the resources or they'll get resources or somehow you know I have seen that you know numbers also they follow numbers also follow and even if numbers don't follow sometimes you know you have more numbers and because just having more numbers you have you know I remember I was I was in Bangalore this was many years ago I was in Bangalore and you know there was this one person who was going to the you know that other temple the big temple and so he was sharing his experience that he was when he was visiting their temple he was now this might sound so funny but it is so sadly true also that he was so pressurised to chant right from day one to chant sixteen 16 rounds so he said Prabhuji mujhe wo bol rahe the sola mala karo sola mala karo peki mala ek hi diya unhone what is the meaning of that means he didn't even know what 16 rounds means he thought sola mala matlab sola mala denge mujhe matlab sola mala oh god that's what I'm trying to tell you he was so new and from day one he was pressurised to chant 16 rounds he didn't even know anything about mahamantra forget about 16 rounds and what else so then if you if you have you know numbers in quantity but then you know then you have to deal with their problems also in the quantitative way you just waste so much of your time just cleaning up after them if you don't have quality people if you just have numbers we just go for number then you you know practically just all your energy is just sapped away in just cleaning up after them so true that's I think that is a major issue the kind of people we attract the other kind of people whom who are going to whom we have to deal with eventually we have to live with we have to we have to deal with so in some ways in the west we have attracted we are always attracted non-mainstream people the mainstream people would always gravitate toward the mainstream religions so then that they also come with a attitude of really not accepting authority being open to more alternative ideas but also it means conspiracy theories and things like that I don't want to I don't want to stereotype anyone but I'm just making this point that the kind of people we are going to attract those are the kind of people whom we will have to live with and take care of so yeah the people I think there are two different problems one is people who do something because they are pressured they may stop doing that things afterwards if there is no one to pressure them and on another side if there is no one to tell them what to do they may not even be able to do anything how do I what do I do if there is no one to guide me yeah yeah so it and especially as our movement has become bigger and guidance is not so easily available in for devotees as they go to different places and different areas it becomes quite difficult yeah so you see I have seen that if you do things one is how adaptive you are in order to in order to not just practise your own Krishna consciousness but also but present Krishna consciousness and expect people to practise Krishna consciousness you have to be adaptive like you know in our training there was one training wherein it was like war simulation you know it was called field craft training camp in which you have to be you know like in the jungles or or a war situation is created and sometimes you are thrown into you know some civilian areas civilian areas means not like crowded civilian areas but where civilians live it might be some some remote village also and you have to use the civilians in order to find the inroads you know towards the enemy oh okay so you have to be adaptive you have to somehow you know know the little language of those civilians and blend in with them so we were taught how to be adaptive that's what you know the point which I'm trying to make you have to so these kind of trainings which we got in which you have to learn to be adaptive and the second was to improvise to improve awareness improvise improvise okay to improvise I'll tell you one incident in this regard if you remember Radha Gopinath temple the Sunday feast class the translation of the Sunday feast class in Hindi was happening in the Bhaktivedanta hall you are aware of that right yes so so the system of what was made was that the speaker in the temple hall would be speaking in English of course and in the Bhaktivedanta hall there is a big screen where the English speaker is seen on the screen is muted okay and the translation is there which they are hearing so they are seeing the English speaker but they are hearing the English Hindi translation so that was the system so the person who is translating they are not seeing the person who is translating the person who is translating is used to he would sit in the deity room so from the deity room he would be seeing the speaker and he had the headphones and he would be he would be hearing the English lecture and he had a microphone and the microphone was connected all the way down to Bhaktivedanta hall where in his Hindi translation would be transmitted over there so this was the system so what happened was now the Seva was given for the Hindi translation of the Sunday feast class to different you know Brahmacharis preachers so it was the month I was given so which means for Sundays I had to translate the English class into Hindi so now now what happens is that one kind of translation is wherein the speaker stops and then you translate that line you know line by line translation that's easy but when the speaker is constantly speaking and you have to simultaneously speaking the same you know speed the same speed the same thing that's quite a challenge definitely yes and especially if the speaker is like someone you know from America or from the English speaking countries where you know they speak so fast sometimes so I remember this was Rathodwaja Maharaj and this was the first time he had come and he speaks so fast and that too heavy you know American accent so fast and heavy American accent and I was not so much used to you know now Radhanath Maharaj's English accent is quite understandable you know even for someone who might not be you know might not have studied in English medium still but this Rathodwaja Maharaj's you know speed and this accent was too heavy for me to translate simultaneously so I tried you know so there was the Bhagavad Gita shloka which he took so I was having the Hindi Bhagavad Gita and few lines and after that I was not able to catch up with his speed so what to do I removed the headphones I disconnected you know the English lectures you know through the headphones which I had to listen to and I closed the door of the DT room I had the verse which he had taken up and I gave my own lecture on that particular in Hindi oh god that's courageous but clever also see the audience you know they they were all like you know at least the Hindi speaking audience in the understanding audience there were at least 400 500 of them you know all there sitting in Bhaktivedanta hall so I just gave a lecture on that particular shloka in Hindi and after that many devotees they came but when you took off the earphones they didn't realise you are giving your own class no no no see the headphones was only for me to listen to the English class okay but when you took off the headphones your audience didn't realise you are not giving you are no longer hearing the class because they didn't know what the English speaker is speaking it was muted for them okay okay yeah it's true so this incident happened I was feeling guilty also that you know you know I should be I should be just translating the class of Maharaj but I was not able to do that so I thought at least they should get something so I was feeling guilty and then I told this to Radhanath Maharaj that you know I did something like that and he was laughing he said really and then he said interesting this word he used he said that sometimes this is this is something we should not do on a regular basis but sometimes you have to improvise so the word I so the second point which I was making so this incident I remembered you know that he mentioned that for our movement to grow we also need to improvise time to time so true yeah yeah this is a brilliant example about what can you do you can't expect Maharaj to slow down you can't what can you do you have no options over there yeah so here that's where I think like Prabhupada said time, place, devotees we have to present bhakti according to time, place, circumstance so in one sense I'm just slightly changing the subject but I would like to say related to our subject itself you see when Prabhupada came to India back with his western disciples even at that time it was not that he attracted committed devotees he attracted lot of followers in terms of people became life members they appreciated they supported our projects it is mainly I would say from the from 80s 85 onwards maybe 87 88 onwards actually he started attracting quality Indians whether it was in Mumbai or whether it was in Bengal or in Delhi area Delhi became a little later I think after the in the east of Kailash temple started coming but it does seem that overall those devotees who have been significantly successful in outreach in India they have they have improvised they have adopted a more of a you could say nuanced multi-level sensitive kind of approach of course every every preacher is individual every leader is individual but it does seem that just as we consider the time place circumstance for western audience we need to consider that in India also and India itself is very culturally diverse although there is a significant amount of similarity but still so what you said about improvising about adapting about giving people room to grow at their pace these are I think like in the early stages of our movement it was more or less 1 0 if you become a devotee that means you move into a temple and if you are not moving into a temple then you are not actually a devotee so he told incidentally how congregation preaching as a concept started within ISKCON he said earlier there was no concept of congregation preaching means now I am a little hesitant to use the word preaching also this is community development whatever congregation development the idea is that the idea that we go to a particular place and conduct a weekly programme or something like that because in the past it was just that if people became interested they moved into the temple and they found that Indians who went to America they were not interested in moving into the temple at all they had gone to the west for material prosperity better material prospects I don't want to dismiss it as mundane life in quite tough and challenging especially with various factors so they went there but they were not completely neglectful or rejecting of their culture so they wanted to have that as a part so he said that these people would come every week to our temple for programmes but after talking with them for a couple of weeks we realised they are never going to become devotees and that's why we stopped paying much attention to them so it is ironic that if somebody had come to the temple and asked are these people devotees are these people ISKCON members we would have said no but if somebody had asked them you know which religious group do you identify with they would have said ISKCON so they identified with us but we didn't identify with them but over a period of time we realised that although we are paying no attention to them it was for weeks and months and years they still kept coming and of course a lot of things happened in the west I think because of some questionable ways of doing book distribution we got severely restricted we got bad PR and then the book distribution went down and temple lost sources of finances then the Indian community came forward to provide finances and they got a more significant role but the point was that's the time when they started thinking how do we cultivate these people what do we provide for these people so they are never going to move into the temple and if you are thinking that the success is moving them into temple they are never going to meet that success but what can we do for them so it was like accident they started the idea of okay you go to a particular place and have a weekly programme now weekly programme is a normal way of cultivation but it was not there at all at that time we see Prabhupada when he came when he was building temples and life membership there is no concept of a regular programme at a life member's house so this started in the mid 80s in the west when our Bhagavad Gita went out there and I think it must have started sometime here in India also do you remember in Radhagopinath where there weekly programmes happening when you joined as a common feature at that time or other something which is just taking up this Wednesday programme I like took it from what Bhakti Rishabh Maharaj used to do the Wednesday programmes at Radhagopinath temple you remember yes and then after that Gaurang Prabhu took over the Wednesday programme so in the temple it was just that one Wednesday programme which Bhakti Rishabh Maharaj started and weekly programme Radhanath Maharaj used to do the Khar programme and just you know sometimes occasionally house programmes you know some special occasion otherwise it was only the Khar programme which I remember the Friday Khar programme which was on a regular basis and then after that yes of course now so many weekly programmes they started so talking about these weekly programmes and you know there are which like kind of outreach if you use that word having small pockets of congregation and different areas in the city Bombay is a big city here in Nasik also we have different pockets where in we have congregation like you know we have congregation of Nasik road we have congregation you know of Gangapur road and different pockets of Nasik like that so I found that one benefit of that having programmes in these different areas the benefit of that is the number of people who are attending those programmes in that particular area they feel that it is their programme it's like you know they own it they have a sense of ownership for that programme whereas when they all come to the temple they have a sense of feeling that okay it's a temple programme so everything they're just like a spectator in their area they are no more like a spectator they get to have a sense of responsibility that you know this I'm responsible to run this programme so they they become more active so that's another benefit of having you know these outreach programmes what I've experienced true in one sense you could say one sign of people's growth is that they are taking ownership and in the programme in the temple there's very little scope for them to take ownership the programme in their area they take ownership and that helps them grow also yeah like I was mentioning that when I was in the other Gopinath temple everything was taken care of so I was not feeling that you know I'm responsible for you know the fundraising of the temple you know I'm responsible for so many other departments like the matchless gift store or anything but coming to Nasik like you know I was feeling I'm responsible for everything that you know how many kajus should we put in the butter halwa you know I'm responsible for that also even for that also we had discussion whether should we you know to save money you know for something else you know so those days were also there so having the responsibility and that's how you know I have seen that when you you have a challenge in front of you whatever that little challenge is there in front of you that challenge keeps you alive that challenge actually makes you feel wanted that yes you can also do something for the mission so there has to be a stage for the congregation wherein they should feel that yes you know the mission needs me you know that the mission needs me is not something which is unhealthy sometimes it might sound unhealthy oh come on I need the mission you know sometimes we we we are under the impression that no no I need the mission what the mission needs me for but to have this healthy balance that yes mission also needs you that is that sense of belonging which you know every individual should get towards the mission I hope I'm not confusing I agree with you in one sense we actually there are two distinct things one is the sense of acceptance but there is also the sense of you could say ambition aspiration challenge both are required for us to stay stay you could say stay I won't use the word contented but both are required in a healthy life you can say if if we don't have something to look forward to then we can't grow but if we don't have some place where we are accepted as we are that also makes us insecure so you can say one extreme is insecurity the other extreme is discontent or dissatisfaction or lethargy so yeah that's true so in sorry yeah these two things like I need the mission and the mission needs me okay so I understand that when you are both both feelings should be there both of these perspectives should be there so when I say I need the mission so that should bring about my humility okay okay and when I say the mission needs me that should bring about my gratitude that the mission is finding me of some significance that the mission is saying that yes the mission needs me so that should bring about not egoistic attitude but gratitude beautiful okay what is that yeah it's not in a then it's healthy that's true it's I think Prabhupada also mentioned this in the 10th canto purport that that or is it in Leela Amrit it is said that that when Prabhupada was worrying about whether the Juhu temple would when there's this whole conspiracy to try to take the Juhu temple land away from us so I think that is mentioned that Prabhupada wrote at that time the 10th canto purport then he says that just as Yashoda always worried about Krishna whether he would be protected whether he would be nourished or not so similarly the pure devotees of Krishna worry about Krishna's deity and Krishna's temple yeah so it's actually there is it's it's when that is there it's not in a Yashoda doesn't think that there is no arrogance over there in that oh Krishna needs me it's actually a sense of love connectedness and I would say gratitude also because as you said in one sense there is there is something which we can also do there is something for me to do over here that I can also make my contribution here yeah so in one sense to be able to for for devotees to get this feeling again I think we will need a a multi-level definition of success because if if the definition of success are you know how many people have you made into devotees or how many books you have distributed or how much funds you have raised how much temple you have built then not everybody can be very good at that and then they may feel devalued and they may feel what am I what can I do over here so in one sense both for attracting new people as well as sustaining existing people we need a you could say multiple definitions of success in our movement yeah yeah in fact you know any organisation you see you will find that the different levels in which the the members of that organisation they are contributing for the overall success of that organisation is is something which you cannot sometimes they are irreplaceable you cannot replace them with anyone else you know like you know if if there is someone who is say say a cricket match a cricket team in a cricket team so you can't have just you know batsmen all level players are excellent batsmen you can't have you know all level players are excellent bowlers you know or you can't have all level players are excellent fielders or wicket keepers you know you have to have a good wicket keeper you have to have good bowlers you have to have good batsmen and all the combination of these makes the team win a match and nobody is looked down upon you know the tail end the batsmen you know they might be good bowlers but you know sometimes the tail end batsmen you know just one or two runs here and there which they make sometimes it makes the team win so I believe that it's it's a team effort you know we are talking of Sankirtan we are talking of team effort wherein everyone pitches in everyone pitches in their their contribution and you know in Krishna's eyes it's always you know as valuable as you know the story of the squirrel and Hanumanji that's so true you know you gave both the contemporary example of cricket and example in from our tradition so so overall maybe maybe I'll ask one or two questions because I don't want to take too much of your time maybe we can continue discussion in future also sometimes but say I when I whenever I have visited Nasik I have also seen you providing forums in on Ram Navami or other times for say groups who are teaching say maybe Bharatanatyam or teaching some kind of traditional Indian dance forms or culture forms to come and give a to present their performance over there so in some I don't know whether I have seen this I don't think I have seen this in many other temples and of course sometimes devotees made themselves some devotee kids or some congregation members are skilled in this they do it they perform some dramas and they do some other dance performance something like that but this was engaging those who are not yet devotees or not devotees you could say at least in our conception of the word devotees so what inspired you to do that and how do you see the how does that contribute to the the overall shaping of the community's perception in the broader society I found that you know first of all any group who is favourable and who who wants to serve the mission in in in any small way whether it is through a dance performance or whether it is just coming and playing some instrument in the kirtan again the same principle that they feel so wanted that yeah you know they were they were being recognised and when the became from that whatever you know whatever little glamour they have which is just you know what Krishna mentions that it is it is his and they can connect with Krishna through that so so the existing congregation feels that yes you know we can get whoever our contacts also to Krishna consciousness like this.

So it gives them a boost also. It gives them a new way of, opens up a window for them to get more and more people in the fold of Christian consciousness. I have seen that many of them even though for years they may not be like a typical one zero kind of devotee wherein they are chanting 16 rounds under a counsellor or becoming initiated but they are such beautiful hearted people and even though they may not become quote-unquote that kind of a typical devotee which we expect but they bring so many others.

Oh I got an opportunity over here please come let's see and then you may see that you know this person who might just be an instrument to bring so many others who might become serious you know if we really are looking for that kind of serious devotees then yes you know and then who knows that in the eyes of Krishna who is a serious devotee and who is not. I am to judge whether he is a serious devotee or he is not a serious devotee. Sometimes you know they might be practising whatever you know in so many lifetimes and this might be you know Krishna's way of bringing them.

I really appreciate this vision that they already have some vibhuti of Krishna and you know when I had met Maharaj in Chicago he also in yeah he mentioned one point to me he talked about how Allen Ginsberg and George Harrison never became committed devotees but Prabhupada encouraged them and they both of them brought so many people before George Harrison Allen Ginsberg was the biggest you could say VIP because of whom a lot of people came to the Krishna conscious movement and actually I have been reading a little bit about the counter culture he was one of the pioneers of the counter culture actually he was quite influential so what Maharaj told me is that there are some people for whom we open the doors so that they can come to Krishna and there are some people who open the doors for us to take Krishna to others. Now if those people we try to pull toward Krishna they are not going to come but they will close the doors also so those people we may have to accept at their level but they can open doors for us. What you said that because of them many other people also start coming that's so true and so like like one Maharaj I think George Harrison's that memorial class Maharaj was mentioning that you know once in in in a group this question was asked that how many of you your first contact with Krishna consciousness was through that song my sweet lord of George Harrison and 80% of the people in the audience they raise their hands they said that yes that was their first contact hmm that's so true so he opened the doors for so many people and also just one more point to reflect on what you're saying that you know we don't know what that our definition of devotion doesn't necessarily reflect the actual devotional status of any particular soul you don't know where they are so overall how do you see this in the light of Prabhupada sometimes saying that we should always see like performances done by devotees like Prabhupada wanted dramas to be done by devotees he wanted in BTG articles to be written by devotees he wanted I was recently talking with one devotee who was it say Prabhupada wanted movies to be made but he said all the all the actors in the movie should be devotees now probably we'll need a very big movement to be able to have that level of calibre as well as that level of that that level of calibre and that level of say to have artists of that calibre to be devotees but how do you see those statements overall see there are two things here first is that we are presenting Krishna consciousness and it's it's something which is you know we are directly representing our guru parampara and then we present the entire package of Krishna consciousness so one is our presentation and the other is engagement of the other people into Krishna consciousness so when I how I understand what Prabhupada mentioned was that you know that devotee should be there to perform the dramas so when it is presented from our side it should be like that but when there is someone who is having that particular say for example there is there is an entire team and they perform these drama shows you know so that can be like not something which is which is our mainstream presentation for the audience but it is presented in such a way that we are engaging them in a cultural activity which is organised by ISPA oh so it's one sense it's very clear that they are not our spokespeople then they are not representing us so okay that's a good point yeah oh this is also very important that we have to we can't absolutise Prabhupada's statements we have to see in what context he has spoken them and then so maybe one one last question how do you deal with the people who already have some religious affiliations so they're worshipping particular devatas or they are already belonging to some organisations and they're open to come into our programmes but still they are already having those affiliations so how do you deal with is that a major obstacle you feel and how do you deal with it first of all you know thanks to Kali Yuga we don't find people so much committed to so many people you know actually committed to one particular devata or one particular path you know in a rigid way but even if there are people definitely I I have so many who are like good friends with me and forget about our bona fide Vaishnava sampradayas but they are from some are Jains and you know some are from some other paths but you know they they see that this person like say you know they get connected to me because of being vegetarian that's it okay okay and they're also vegetarian or you know this person he is into chanting a mantra and they're also chanting into some mantras you know like that so I always look into what is that one common denominator which will connect one common factor which will connect and just keep that as you know a friendship for sometimes many years sometimes what happens is that they also seeing that this person's Krishna presented a very holistic way then you know they start appreciating Krishna consciousness they may not follow Krishna consciousness like how we follow but they start appreciating Krishna consciousness which according to me is also Krishna consciousness Krishna consciousness at multiple levels I agree and people can appreciate at different levels entirely true so again if we have that one zero level conception of Krishna consciousness that's where the problem comes up and you can see also Prabhupada did that isn't it with respect to the life members who've joined Prabhupada never pushed them to become initiated or move into the temple at all Prabhupada appreciated what they were doing many of them did have their own past cultural affiliations so that doesn't I don't think that matters so much so so true it's like you know when Tamal Krishna Maharaj you know when he departed and after that myself Govind Prabhu we were we were here in America we met Tamal Krishna Maharaj's brother and Tamal Krishna Maharaj's brother I remember he's also practising devotee I don't know whether he's initiated now but there was a point where he had approached Tamal Krishna Maharaj for initiation first okay Tamal Krishna Maharaj said that I have hundreds of disciples but I have only one brother I loved that you know that reply given by Tamal Krishna Maharaj that I have hundreds of disciples but I only one brother so let me have my brother so beautiful amazing so so what you are saying over here is that different relationships have their flavours and we preserve them we don't have to homogenise all the relationships in terms of say practising in terms of preaching or getting people to practise bhakti yeah beautiful and I think that that diversity or inclusivity is what is what is very much required in today's world because as you said earlier that because of Kalyuga it's not so easy for people to commit to any path not just to their whatever they were practising their family or their and dynasty earlier or their overall social circle but even when they come to Krishna consciousness it's not easy to to take a high level of commitment but that doesn't mean we have to we have no place for them so giving us place for them really makes it makes it makes them then also get connected at some level and it also helps us to also know that our outreach is growing in different ways so are there maybe one last question here so are there any ways in which or any occasions when you see the whole community not just necessarily committed 16 round of the whole community coming together for the for the service of the deities or for some cause like say maybe when you had some you have some major festivals or some major occasions when you are expanding the project or something like that so are that that you are that you are a part of a big community and there is such a supportive community I think you know we as a movement recognise the need for having bridges when our Bhaktivanta Manor was threatened in London and then if we had portrayed ourselves simply as one religious group then we wouldn't have been able to save the manor but it was because it was presented as the biggest Hindu temple in London in England at that time so that's why we got a broader community to support us now probably we didn't have had anything that dramatic but are there any occasions when this whole large community with different people practising at different levels comes together in a unified way well nothing that major which has happened ever here in Nasik that we we had to approach them or we required their help you know to save our temple save our congregation nothing like that so significant nothing so major but because like you know we have very good terms with RSS and you know even Art of Living you know so we have you know a good rapport with them and enough investment we have done that whenever if required God forbid whatever time comes if required then we know that definitely they'll they'll reach out and they definitely be very supportive very helpful in in in in the need of the hour hmm and will that go the other way also if they need us we'll also be there yes yes yes yes yes we do I remember when I was in London I think you also spend a good amount of time in UK in your outreach yeah in that London I think we have integrated with the broader community quite well brother you could say in the community so I was talking with Shri Dharma Prabhu and some of the other leaders there they mentioned this point that we we know when to focus on the philosophical and when to focus on the cultural so philosophical organisation may be different but culturally we have similarities and we when we focus on those we can have we can have friends so it seems that when I think Swami Pramukh had passed away so our devotees are also born for their for their like memorial service and then in the manner newsletter also they had published a condolence kind of message like a news or news in the news section that a condolence meet was held and devotees participate in it something like that not condolence was a memorial so I think that appreciating that we can't just reduce people to their religious affiliations or even a religious organisation or a group to its ideology because they the group is also just as people are multifaceted even the groups are multifaceted and there are many things common among us which we can actually which which can be utilised for mutual benefit that also requires a breadth of vision so was this something you just naturally had because you had devotional upbringing or was it something which happened by your experiences Radha Gopinath this breadth of vision well one thing I can say that you know if you are part of the central security force like air force where in you know it's not your choice but you have an exposure with practically every state of the country you know every culture so I was you know living amongst you know the hardcore South Indians with you know North Indians and Bengalis and you know the East Indians you know all of them so so once you are you know you're kind of living day in and day out with all kinds of people with all cultural backgrounds you have to you have to be so open-minded you know that people the language they speak the way they eat the way they walk the way they live the way they do everything is sometimes so diverse so that I can say that to some extent that helped me when I when I joined that you know seeing all the diversity and accepting the diversity in fact being in the armed forces we were taught that you know all of this diversity finally it boils down to you know your patriotism for the country you know hmm and if you translate that that all these diversities it boils down to you know pleasing Krishna so they they might be doing in their own way or you know we can we can just help them give some of the Sukruti by by connecting them maybe in a remote way with you know the process of Christian consciousness but finally it all boils down to you know bringing them to Krishna somehow or the other hmm so beautiful you know recently I have also been introspecting how our past shapes our practise of Krishna bhakti our priorities in Krishna bhakti our vision of Krishna bhakti so sometimes we see the past as especially if you have had some misconceptions or some unhealthy habits it's just like a burden to be shed but it's not that only that there is also some moral and cultural capital in that which is which shapes us without even our knowledge so appreciating that it does radically change how we practise and how we share so your example of being the armed forces makes a it makes eminent sense in that context yeah yeah so it has been wonderful discussing you know maybe sometimes we could discuss about since you have experience in battle and sports both we can talk about how battle and sports metaphors can be used in practising and sharing bhakti that will be fun so should I try to summarise what we discussed you would like to add something right now toward the end okay so it is today we discussed about say how you help develop a inclusive spiritual community in Nasik we started with your experiences quite remarkable to have a grandfather who was a Kathakar and then to have a picture of Krishna seen in the picture that you are attracted to perceiving that picture and then finding Radha Gopinath temple within a week or so after that and then so while you had the cultural orientation but what you found attractive was also the logical presentation that attracted and then also that interaction that if if a non-indian American person missing this is your Gita is your book so that inspired to share with it would study it and share with others and with respect to Nasik the sacred place itself is more like a background but because that is not the defining identity so that didn't really affect so much the specific vision for outreach that you had so we discussed about the outreach I think three four different things first is with respect to expanding or growing you focused on first connecting with the people there understanding them and giving accessible channels through Kathas and other things to come to people so Prabhupada's point about understanding presenting our time-place circumstance it was about language it was about a good example of improvisation that what is required in terms of translating with translating can't be done you give your own class because that ultimately had to serve the people so being adaptive and improvising so you also mentioned that this devotee the gentleman I also like this word that he was not non devotee or person the gentleman so what he said is that he started he said I will start chanting because nobody pushed me for chanting for so many years and even you didn't do that so so actually accepting people where they are at while providing them pathway but not pushing them too much so it's like the bird you said beautiful example that you hold a pigeon if you hold it too tightly it'll get squeezed you get crushed but if you hold it too loosely it will just it'll just fly away so we need to if you are to train it or help it so we need a balance of both and then another point of hierarchy what are the words you said durachar and not an achar what was that? lachar lachar okay durachar, lachar, achar then vichar and prachar vichar, achar and prachar was it five? no no durachar, lachar, vichar, sadhachar sadhachar okay not achar sadhachar okay so achar is the common for everything okay nice and then similarly you talked about knowing about Krishna then trusting Krishna what are the hierarchy after that trusting Krishna means where you also like you have congregation programme that people take ownership over Krishna so what are the… you trust Krishna, follow Krishna.

so know Krishna, trust Krishna, follow Krishna it's interesting I would say if you are doing western outreach you will need something below that is believe in Krishna I think that is not a major challenge in India for us although there are atheistic people but I think there are so many theistic people so that is not a major stumbling block in our outreach yeah yeah yeah and then we also talked about when we when we are presenting bhakti so we are actually like you talked about including facility for people from other culture from other cultural forums to come and present so it is we are encouraging them and even if they don't become devotees they become appreciative and they may get more and more people to also come for the programmes and in general we can't really they have some vibhuti of Krishna so let us use it let us give them a forum for using Krishna service and we can't really know what is their devotional status so that's between them and Krishna and before that you also mentioned that well while we are while we are sharing Krishna bhakti it's important for us to understand where our audience is at and how we can take them forward so with respect to that you later mentioned that how with other organisations also you have heard enough capital invested so that if the need is there they can help and working in the Indian National Forces help you in that direction to to see beyond the diversity differences to the shared purpose the shared purpose of you're all trying to protect Dharma or help people come closer to Krishna and overall you may rather when I asked you about the definitions of success what you focused on was not the external parameters but rather on the internal resources we are having younger devotees who have a lot of energy and older devotees who have a lot of maturity we both are there then they can be balanced if we focus only on on the quantitative aspects of success then that can lead to that can lead to a very utilitarian kind of mentality what are the example you give for that striking example that mention some story or some I don't that we become very utilitarian story now some anecdotes and stories of example you gave of how are how are near t and nifty yet Oh Bhima Bhima's example yeah near yeah near near the near the near the near the yeah we must example yeah so ultimately our motivation will shape how things emerge how things come out yes and also contemporary example so yeah we discuss also a proper exam proper when he said that we should give the full presentation of Krishna consciousness but we don't demand that everybody has to adopt it fully we can let them adopt at their level so in our in if it's a programme in our temple people have the facility for the full presentation yes so any concluding words you want to add through living Shruti there oh my god short term Shruti there but for an hour or two after the talk but it's wonderful thank you thank you so much for showering so much love and affection all these years in fact you are the original Nasikwala I learned about Nasik I said appreciating the spirituality of Nasik after I became a devotee living in Nasik that just the accidentally I happen to be there but wonderful to thank you so much for your association and your inspiration we'll probably have some other podcasts in future again sometime we'll have.