Developing our personal relationship with Bhagavad gita SB Keshava Maharaj and Chaitanya Charan Prabhu

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Disclaimer: This transcript was generated using AI and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies.

Lecture Summary

Discovering fresh inspiration from the Bhagavad Gita goes beyond traditional study, offering profound personal and spiritual growth for modern seekers.

• The Bhagavad Gita remains a central, evolving focus of lifelong study, contemplation, and writing for dedicated spiritual practitioners.
• Approaching scripture with individual intelligence and creativity—while staying aligned with established commentaries and core conclusions—allows readers to uncover multi-layered insights.
• Beyond philosophical truth, the Gita reveals the intimate relationship and personal character dynamics between Krishna and Arjuna, bringing deep emotional nourishment to the heart.
• Common obstacles like viewing the scripture as basic, overly philosophical, or repetitive can be successfully transformed by recognizing its rich layers, personal dialogue, and thematic choruses.
• The transformative teachings of the Gita provide practical life solutions, proving that while we may live with pain, we do not have to live in pain.

Key Takeaways

• Satisfaction is not merely an emotion; it is a conscious decision we can make by shifting our perspective toward a higher purpose.
• Krishna functions ultimately as the fulfillment of our deepest desires rather than merely a fulfiller of temporary material wants.

Full Transcription

We can meet personally and we can talk so thank you very much for coming today Hare Krishna congratulations on your sannyas nice to see you now entire devotee community especially our generation is thrilled to see you take the step forward and best wishes and prayers to you for this thank you so much more and more I’m delighted to yeah it’s been eventful few months and I’ve been travelling a little bit more and exploring the new opportunities that the ashram has to offer me and praying that I can become a better instrument in Shila Prabhupada’s movement so thank you and welcome to all our viewers today we are here today having a discussion as part of the glorification of Shila Prabhupada’s books and today we’re specifically speaking about the Bhagavad Gita and the importance of the Bhagavad Gita in our life what the Bhagavad Gita is really giving us as sadhakas on the spiritual journey and we’re also looking at how to delve deeper into the Gita to draw fresh inspiration deeper insights and more and more wisdom which we can use to enrich as one of our key scriptures through which we can reach the world with very powerful and relevant wisdom and so of course Chaitanya Chaharan who needs no introduction he’s a renunciate for many years a preacher in recent years has been travelling more and more across the world he’s the author of many many books he has his online podcast and his website the spiritual scientists and today specifically Chaitanya Chaharan is one of the ideal personalities to have this conversation with because he’s written I think probably close to 2,000 articles on the Bhagavad Gita would that be correct Chaitanya Chaharan? Well I’ve been writing for 11 years now so it’s about 4,000.

Oh 4,000 I thought I was half okay so 4,000 articles on the Bhagavad Gita in his Gita Daily it’s usually about a three to four hundred word article which gives a very practical but deep wisdom insight into one of the verses and he’s recently taken some of that material and produced two new books which he’ll be sharing a little bit with us later on based on Shilaprabha’s Gita and how to derive more from it so we’ll be discussing a little bit about this today. Chaitanya Chaharan let me ask you devotees read Shastra and then they go to deeper and deeper levels oftentimes we find that the Bhagavad Gita is taken by devotees as kind of an introductory book to get familiar with the basics of Krishna consciousness and then later on when they go to reading the Bhagavatam or perhaps the CC and other books that’s where they tend to spend more time like going deeper into the commentaries and studying to different levels but it’s interesting that yourself for you know two to three decades you’ve been studying the Gita and the Gita remains a big focus for you a big focus of contemplation reflection and study that’s quite unique. Can you tell us something about why the Gita remains a book that is capturing your imagination clearly? Thank you.

Yes you know frankly the Bhagavad Gita was the book which captivated me I could say my relationship with the Bhagavad Gita has had four different stages I like to visualise the verses of the Gita as my close friends maybe it is a little presumptuous and sacrilegious but just as we when we if we have some difficulties we turn to our friends for insights so like that so in my childhood I studied everyone has studied I recited the Gita I memorised the Gita I was born in a pious Indian family so it is a part of Shloka recitation competitions and that was okay this is something nice something like nice sweet and nice to recite I didn’t think of it as a source of meaning or wisdom or like guidance at that time then second stage was when I was introduced to Prabhupada’s Gita actually I had read a few Gitas I started a little bit of philosophical search in my life when I was around 15 when my mother passed away of cancer so I had read a few Gitas before I read Prabhupada’s Gita and when I read Prabhupada’s Bhagavad Gita as it is it struck what struck me with two things the clarity and the consistency which was amazing that the Bhagavad Gita was a is can be a very confusing and complex book so but I found Prabhupada’s expression so clear and so consistent and it became very clear to me that this is what I would like to study this is what I’d like to share I found that the Gita helped me you could say find my calling in my life I never really thought that I became a brahmachari in one sense it was I never thought that okay I’m choosing to become a brahmachari I thought that I’m studying the Gita I want to study the Gita further I want to share it and the best place to do it is the brahmachari ashram so in that sense becoming a brahmachari was secondary even joining ISKCON was secondary it was more studying the Gita and I would say it’s not only the Gita there’s a wisdom surrounding the Gita because I see the Gita like a like a centre point and like a nucleus and around which you can have many many areas where we could explore so that was for me so Prabhupada’s Gita became like the main guiding light for my life there is a second stage when the third stage was where I started reading previous Acharya’s commentaries in the Gita and I started realising hey there are similarities but there are there are substantial differences also not in terms of conclusions but in terms of analysis and then that’s when I started I read Prabhupada’s well-known quote you know study scripture scrutinizingly from multiple perspectives so I studied previous Acharya’s commentaries I started finding that each verse could have so many layers and levels of meaning now at present so then that was the third stage where I was exploring the Gita you could say from multiple perspectives and I won’t say these stages are entirely discrete because I keep studying Prabhupada’s Gita I keep reading previous Acharya’s commentaries also so first but after the third stage in the fourth stage where I became convinced that the Gita will be the basis of what I want to share in the world so I do of course speak on the Bhagavatam on the CC but the Gita is the centre of my both in reach and outreach I hope to reach come closer to Krishnaswami Gita and to help others come closer and within that so that particular theme of statement of Prabhupada so two statements of Prabhupada one is I study scriptural from scrutinising from multiple perspectives and every day write your realisation so I would say those two statements have been the driving force for me in in my study my analysis my presentation and my writing of course so yeah I hope to be continue on in this fourth stage lifelong Krishnaveling. Yeah I mean to write 4,000 articles it means you’re constantly finding newer and newer insights and this is something I want to ask you is kind of fascinating to me like in analysing and drawing lessons from the Gita how creative can we get how do we know when we’re kind of coming up with something based on our kind of creative imagination how do we know like okay let me give you example I was reading your new book and in the very first chapter I think you talk about Dhritarashtra and you ask the question which is a very interesting question as to why does the Bhagavad Gita begin with Dhritarashtra Uvacha and the lesson that you draw from there if I understood it correctly and I remember correctly is you explain that it’s not just a contextual thing that okay Dhritarashtra is in the palace and he’s hearing from Sanjay and therefore the Gita begins like that but we could also take it a little deeper and see that Dhritarashtra his personality is outlined at the beginning the very first verse of the Gita so that the reader can understand what kind of mentality not to have because if you have this kind of mentality you never really grasp the message of the Gita and so it’s almost like the Gita begins with a warning of not to be like this person because that will block you from absorbing the message did I understand that point did I convey it correctly yes so thank you for bringing that example so so I was just wondering when it comes to things like this for example an insight like that did you get that from the commentaries do you get that how did you how did you what was that process by which you came up with that insight that’s a thank you so okay so currently my favourite metaphor for understanding the Gita or approaching the Gita is it’s a jigsaw puzzle and it’s an extraordinary jigsaw puzzle because a normal jigsaw puzzle it’s challenging because you have to get each piece in the right place and then it all fits together to give attractive picture but the Gita is such a jigsaw puzzle that you can fit the pieces in different ways and each of those times you get a attractive picture now of course the attractive picture so chakravarti padha has fit his fit the Gita’s pieces by pieces I mean verses concepts chapters it’s put them together and he has got a critical picture emerging from the Gita but David there we should consider his disciple he has put the Gita together in a very different way in fact some verses they explain similarly their overall frame of analysis is very different and yet the picture that ultimately comes is there are two things which are consistent so that is and this is where I find Srila Prabhupada’s clarity and consistency so empowering that ultimately the Gita is about sadhana and sadhya that’s one of the last articles in that book which you mentioned that what is the purpose of the Gita is to tell Arjuna both contextually and universally for all of us that okay what is the purpose to achieve in life what is the sadhya and what is the means to achieve that what is the sadhana so Srila Prabhupada throughout his Gita commentary his Bhagavad Gita as it is is very consistent right in the introduction Srila Prabhupada says our purpose in writing this commentary on the Gita is the same as the purpose of Krishna in descending to this world thousands of years ago all right what is that to establish these two truths what is the sadhana what is the sadhya the sadhya is Bhagavan aham sarvasya prabho as Arjuna himself says that I accept what you say as true and then what is the sadhya sorry what is sadhana that is karishe pachinam tawa I will do your will so if these two points we keep in mind so in the relishing Bhagavad Gita book what I did is Srila Prabhupada consistently emphasises that bhakti is the conclusion that actually Krishna’s love is manifesting and he emphasises bhakti very clearly so I was thinking that how best to to to understand this and to convey this and Srila Prabhupada talks about the difference between say philosophical speculation and mental speculation and it could be understood in different ways the way I put it I mean the way Prabhupada explains it okay I put it concisely is that that philosophical speculation means seek different ways to arrive at the desired conclusion or at the specified conclusion so we have scope for identity in one sense that’s the whole gamut of bhakti also we are what we are meant to do with our life is to serve Krishna we are smart we are going to serve him but how we serve him there is abundant room for individuality individual initiative individual creativity individual even liberty if we use that word so similarly in the study of scripture we come to the final conclusion so and how exactly what process of reasoning we use that is that is something which I feel we have our own god-given abilities and what I did was I was always interested in literature and in the last few years I have studied quite a few books about the structure of books so when a book is written okay how is the author writing a book why is the author starting from this perspective why is the author taking this angle say when we when you study this as a author you study this we write books so we structure our books but when you study writing you see the structure of books and then that itself becomes a fascinating study you know why is Krishna putting so many verses for this so few verses for this why is the Gita starting here so my understanding is that that particular point now coming to the specific example of Dhritarashtra so it is that if you see the Gita starts with that frame and it ends also with that frame Sanjay speaking with Dhritarashtra so towards the end of it Dhritarashtra’s heart is not changed so in one sense that that is saying that this is the this is so okay one important point I say is that this is one way to fit the jigsaw puzzle I’m not saying that is the only way and there are many different ways to fit it and that we worship Krishna with our intelligence when we study the Gita in this way now I basically I take an inspiration from both Chakravarti Pada and Baldev Darshan commentaries and not just see the point that they make but try to understand the reasoning by which they make those points so and I have talked with various senior devotees who have commented on the Gita so for example Chakravarti Pada may give a particular reason why a particular name is used for Krishna at a particular point say like Prabhupada says he says Keshi is like a demon Keshi Surdana, this nation is Surdana like doubts are like demons and Arjuna is requesting Krishna please kill the demon of doubt in my heart now these meanings they give at particular places at other places they may not give the meanings but if that name has been used and if we can find out from with our God-given intelligence okay how does this name make sense and I feel it enhances the appreciation for the Gita so for example the last word that Arjuna that Krishna uses to refer to Arjuna is Dhananjaya, that’s 1872. The last word, Dhananjaya is the winner of wealth so the way I felt inspired to the way I understood this was that Krishna is asking Arjuna you are the winner of wealth you won physical wealth have you now won the spiritual wealth of the wisdom of the Gita that oh Dhananjaya have you understood clearly has your illusion been dispelled so have you have you been enriched Arjuna with this wisdom so the Gita’s wisdom is meant to make all of us Dhananjaya in that sense so now in that sense I follow not necessarily the exact everything that I write in my books may not be specified specifically said in the way of reasoning and then I use as purpose in philosophical speculation to analyse from different perspectives.

Yeah it’s interesting that you know that you know one way is that we go to the commentaries and then we derive the lessons that the Acharyas have brought to our attention but here what you’re saying is that if you see the text you can use your intelligence if you come with an insight as to you know a deeper lesson that’s contained within the text if it’s in line with the Acharya’s way of thinking it follows the siddhanta of Guru Sarasastra and if it illuminates the ultimate sadhya and sadhana that the Gita is trying to establish then we can accept that that insight is bona fide and useful and enriching to our spiritual journey. Yes I feel otherwise what do we mean by study from different perspectives Prabhupada said that so we have our experience we have our our understanding we have our God and Krishna has given our intelligence and we will see things from a particular perspective that’s where I see from my perspective you see from your perspective so the boundary would be that I would never contradict anything that a previous Acharya has said can give a different perspective so for example 110 the the word Aparyaptam, Chakravarthipada and Baldevdava have different meanings of that so Aparyaptam, Chakravarthipada says that actually he means insufficient and Baldevdava says it means immeasurable. Duryodhana is comparing the two armies so there could be sometimes different perspectives but that does not necessarily mean that one is right and the other is wrong it is just like the classic example is another example another point for this is that the the the 64 meanings of the Atmaram verse that Mahaprabhu himself gives the idea is that there is within our tradition a lot of room not just room a lot of precedent for the use of intelligence in understanding scripture and to the extent we to the extent we study scripture it’s like scripture is a manifestation of Krishna and we understand non-different from Krishna and each one of us has our personal relationship with Krishna so each one of us has a personal relationship with scripture and as I said this is this is a perspective I find it enriching others may find enriching and I find it enriching not just in my sense of I am so clever I am listening to Gita I find it deepens my appreciation of Krishna it deepens my absorption in Krishna it deepens my conviction of how Srila Prabhupada has been so brilliant in emphasising what he has emphasised in his Gita commentary so we can see now this particular frame of analysis will it necessarily help everyone well no it is it is a matter of I would say it is a matter of so there is there is realisations and what is the realisation for me may not seem that striking a realisation for someone else and that’s perfectly fine so I find fitting the jigsaw puzzle quite intriguing and it’s it’s quite intellectually fascinating actually and fascinating and fulfilling yeah I was thinking many people would read the same verse as what you read and they may not see what you see and of course you said the Shastra is Krishna is all individual but clearly you have been gifted with an ability to draw many things from scriptures draw many insights that maybe others many of us would not be able to see and I’m just wondering whether there’s anything that you’ve observed in your own life which makes you more able to discover such things like you know what what is it that what what’s the difference between two people who read the Gita and someone who feels like they’re reading but they’re not able to draw that kind of insight and another person who seems to just be bombarded with more and more thoughts and realisations what what’s the difference well first of all let’s say that we all are individuals so for example I did a Gopi Gita podcast with Amarendra Prabhu and Madhavanandram and I have studied the Gopi Gita is one of my favourite sections of the Bhagavatam but the kind of insights they have now they both study the Acharya’s commentaries I also studied to some extent but when they were sharing it is not just the Acharya’s commentaries they check the Acharya’s commentaries and they’re going giving their own insights their own realisations so my understanding is with respect to the Bhagavatam many devotees do it and that’s what also makes Bhagavatam relishable with respect to various pastimes so Prahlad pastime or many other pastimes which we discuss you know we do we do bring in our understanding our realisations our perspective when we study the Bhagavatam and Chaitanya Chaitanya also some devotees do it but I feel it is Krishna attracting us to different different ways and maybe when I go in front of the deities now I don’t get Navanavarasadhaam in that when I go to the deities but somebody is a Pujari they go in front of the deities they get that much more and somebody who is worshipping the deities so it’s Krishna Krishna in one sense gives us gives all of us something within Krishna consciousness we become attracted to having said that I would say that see you also have a lot of insights on the Gita in your in the way you presented and especially various ways I’ve travelled the way you made acronyms initially for various sections of the Gita that’s a that’s a brilliant way of making the Gita accessible accessible memorable relishable so it’s I would say I could ask how did you get that idea of making an acronym like that it’s just something that comes isn’t oh you get this acronym this really works we try sometimes okay this is not fitting do this try this but the way I find acronyms is you don’t really sit down and try to come up with acronym it’s not that you’re six hours you’re sitting down to come up with acronym I don’t know if that’s how you work if you think about a subject but suddenly the acronym comes at a particular time and it fits we may do a little bit juggling about a little bit fixing tinkering but overall this is Krishna I think for me I see I physically I’m not able to do much deity worship so I see words as my way of worshipping Krishna just as a pujari would try to put flowers in the most artistic beautiful way to they don’t beautify the deities but they make the beauty of the deities manifest to our vision so this is there’s creativity in that okay you could put the flower decoration like this you could make the effulgence like this you could make the garland like this and so just as there is the way of reveal of manifesting Krishna’s beauty by decorating with flowers there could be manifesting Krishna’s beauty by offering him words so I would say my my focus is not so much on fresh insights as fresh way of phrasing the insights some some of course are there are fresh insights but I I like to think of the teachings of the Gita and then present them in a way that become easily memorable so what I think what you have done with acronyms I try to do with aphorisms and it’s just Krishna using all of us to try to try to you know draw more and more people to him and most importantly draw us to him keep us engaged in some way so that people closer to him yeah it’s interesting how you talk about and we can feel it when you speak that the that you’re deriving from your study of the Gita and I want to ask you this question because the Gita is mainly seen as a book of Tatva a book of philosophical truth a book which outlines who we are who is God and how we connect with God when we think of Rasa then generally we’re thinking of the Bhagavatam you know Rasika you know it’s the Rasamalayam the Bhagavatam is the place where you can experience the Rasa of the personality of Godhead so I want to ask you like people primarily see the Gita as a book of Tatva spiritual truth spiritual philosophy and later on we return to the Bhagavatam where we find out about Krishna’s name, fame, form, qualities, pastimes and it and it really that Rasa that religion but do you think the Gita is also a book of Rasa you’ve been I know you’ve been looking at the Gita not just at the philosophy but trying to understand the personalities behind it and so does the Gita also give you a sense of insight into Krishna’s character his personality gives you some relish of Rasa in that way I don’t know if you can say something about that.

Yes that’s a beautiful thought thank you for raising this point for me among one of the most illuminating contemporary approaches to the Gita was Garuda Prabhu’s the beloved Lord’s secret love song and there he focusses on how the Krishna’s moods manifested through particular verses Krishna is angry, Krishna is concerned, Krishna is sometimes annoyed and it’s a very sweet inferences which are insights into the psychology that is going on so I found that I found that book particular illuminating but then once I was giving two series talks at the same time one was a series on the Mahabharata and the other was a series on the Bhagavad Gita and that time it struck me I was speaking on Krishna and Arjuna in the Mahabharata and then I was speaking especially in the first chapter in the Bhagavad Gita and in the first chapter there was Arjuna so when he was speaking on Arjuna so what happened was that how Arjuna was thinking how Arjuna was reflecting how Arjuna was acting I found that there were remarkable correlations that could be drawn I started thinking that how much is the Krishna Arjuna relationship and how much are the aspects of their relationship playing into the Bhagavad Gita and that led to an amazing I would say one of the most delightful phases of study in my in my spiritual life so I went to the Mahabharata all the places that Krishna and Arjuna discussions are going on then there were many questions that came up and I found answers to them say for example now Arjuna is fighting against the Kauravas in Kurukshetra now when he comes in between the two armies and sees the two armies he has fought against that army before at Virat there was no he was not overwhelmed at that time he was not shaken at that time why is he shaken now that is one of the articles in Ranishik Bhagavad Gita that it is that actually in one sense that if the if the odds were a matter of concern and the odds were much worse for him in Virat because he was all alone he has his brothers he has an army but the odds were not worse but the stakes were worse there Arjuna had no intention to kill the Kauravas just wanted to teach them a lesson he still hoped that some peaceful solution would come out but here at Kurukshetra one side would not go back alive the stakes were much higher now this particular insight I found it it helped you could say understand Arjuna as a person better and if I had not read the Mahabharata and then not reading I would never have thought of this so similarly so Garuda Prabhu focusses on Krishna’s personality as it is revealed in the Bhagavad Gita I focus on how Krishna Arjuna’s relationship comes out and there are many I am hoping to write a book on the Prabhupada says in one purport that Krishna is the Krishna is the ideal teacher in one of the purport in the Bhagavad Gita so I hope to take that statement as a like a like a seminal statement and demonstrate to the conversation of the Gita how Krishna exhibits ideal teaching skills and then we take that framework Dhritaramma once told me that when he sees Prabhupada’s books as filled with buried jewels the underground treasure of buried jewels so if we dig deep enough we find a jewel and one jewel may be enough to enrich us for our entire life so he said that he read Prabhupada’s book several times and he found that Prabhupada did emphasise scientific outreach a lot and he took that as his life’s mission and that’s what he’s been doing and he achieved significant amount of success by Krishna’s mercy by Prabhupada’s mercy so I see that Prabhupada has talked about the Gita extensively Prabhupada made the Gita the basis of his outreach now I have not been able to find a written source for this but several senior Prabhupada’s disciples told me that once Prabhupada was asked if he were alone on an island trapped which book would he want with him and Prabhupada said Bhagavad Gita I would I would like to find a written source for it but I haven’t yet found it but it’s it’s reasonable because Prabhupada did say that when he was asked which books you would like to comment on again he did say Bhagavad Gita he did not say that I would like to comment on Chaitanya Charita Amrit again not say I would like to comment on the Nodi he did say that I would like to comment on Bhagavad Gita so yes the Bhagavad Gita has has a lot of personal elements of course there is philosophy but when we see it in the light of the relationship between the two of them between Krishna and Arjuna then we start seeing that actually it’s say it’s a it’s an expression of their love and it’s like say two two devotees are discussing some philosophy you know I find it interesting but if we know both the devotees personally and then we say okay this devotee is making this point this devotee is making this point and okay this is how they think now they want to make this point okay so when we know the two of them personally we know the two of their relationship then that brings a special flavour to this philosophical discussion so I feel the Gita is a way to not just understand the teaching of Krishna it’s also the way to understand Krishna as a person and that is what is shown at the end of the Gita in 1876 and 77 first in 76 Sanjay both Sanjay says I am thrilled but first he is saying that rajan samsutya samsutya sambhadana madhutam keshava arjuna yo punyam vishyam chamoram he says I am remembering the conversation and I’m thrilled but then the next verse he said he says as I contemplate the message I cannot but contemplate the person person is talking about the form and we could say that he is referring to the virat rupa but he is also referring to the form that revealed the virat rupa so for Sanjay his thrill moves from the teachings to teacher from the Gita to Krishna and I find that as our relationship with the Gita will evolve then yes the teachings are important but the teacher becomes just as if not more important and yes then there is definitely a lot of rasa in the Bhagavad Gita and would you say the same is true for Shila Prabhupada’s writings that in the beginning when we’re hearing Shila Prabhupada’s writings then we’re very much drawing on his teachings and but later on when we read different purpose conversations and then why he said this in this circumstance but this in this circumstance where we’re not just hearing the philosophy that Shila Prabhupada is giving but we’re actually learning about Shila Prabhupada’s heart his personality his qualities how he is that is so true thank you for bringing this point bro I was just in Alachua I was talking with one senior Prabhupada disciple and he was I was talking with him and maybe I’ll invite him for a podcast and he will himself say this but I would want to use his name right now so he’s I asked him you know what is the greatest what could be the greatest strength for Prabhupada’s movement and what would be the greatest danger he said the greatest strength would be understanding Shila Prabhupada and he says the greatest danger is quoting Shila Prabhupada Shila Prabhupada so you know we can weaponise Prabhupada’s codes to to fulfil our own agendas agenda is a negative word but to reinforce our own conceptions and that’s not wrong if we are not being exclusivist okay this is my understanding this is their understanding so what what happens is that there is the point and there is the point of the point so there’s a particular particular point we made and there’s a purpose why the point is being made so initially focus on the five points and you find them yeah this is this nice this is interesting this is insightful this is great but after some time when we read Prabhupada’s books we’re not just seeing the point they’re seeing the point in the light of the person and what is Prabhupada’s mission Prabhupada started a society for Krishna consciousness so we see the point in the light of the purpose of the point so you could say there’s a point then there’s a purpose and there is seeing the point in the light of the purpose and I feel we when the purpose is understood when we have read about Srila Prabhupada when we have heard about Srila Prabhupada as a person and then we have understood his mission so yes the way we may read Prabhupada’s teachings read Prabhupada’s books in our first or first two three years in Krishna consciousness first five years in Krishna consciousness and the way we read in after first after 10-15 years it’s very different and I find that every time I read Lama’s one of the books I keep reading regularly in general Prabhupada’s biography after every time I read Lama after that when I read Prabhupada’s books I have been able to see them in a very different light same Bhagavad Gita if the memory of the person Srila Prabhupada is strongly in my mind then when I read the Bhagavad Gita it’s not Bhagavad Gita as it is and it is not just philosophy it is a person speaking to me and we know the person then we can we can make sure that we understand the point in the light of the purpose of the point yeah beautiful beautiful it’s really about someone who asked me just a few days ago they said how do we teach the absolute truth and at the same time be sensitive to the person we’re speaking to and it was quite an interesting question because it was almost as though they juxtaposed theological accuracy and human sensitivity and what kind of occurred to me was that when we understand the theology deeply and we have a very pure motivation then preaching the absolute truth and being humanly sensitive I think they seamlessly integrate um yeah and so uh beautiful yeah so I was just I just thought because the absolute truth is beautiful the absolute truth is illuminating the absolute truth is sensitive but I think when we understand that or misunderstand the absolute truth or when we have some ulterior motive then preaching the absolute truth actually becomes the opposite but when we deeply imbibe it then then that absolute truth will see integrate seamlessly with being empowering and illuminating like that true actually this is where I see Krishna talks about discipline of speech austerity of discipline of speech he’s saying he’s not seeing the two as contradictory saying that both of them are integral parts of effective speaking so yes and how does that come about as if we if we focus on the purpose then both work together just like a doctor a doctor’s purpose is to heal the patient so that in the future the patient has better health but the doctor also doesn’t want to hurt the patient right now more than necessary so so that’s why there is some pain medication but also the cure I think that theological accuracy somebody says in terms of making sure that a person gets the clear conclusive understanding so that the person can develop love for Krishna and attain the highest level of Krishna consciousness that is so important but the same time where they are if their present conceptions are different are in opposite then we cannot just destroy their present conceptions I see it like suppose somebody is somebody is living in a ramshackle house which may collapse at any time now we may want to give them a better house but if you just go with the bulldozer and say I’m going to destroy your house you will say I’ll build a better house for you we have to first earn their trust otherwise they will oppose us they’ll not accept the house and so whatever be the conceptions a person presently has even if those conceptions are wrong conceptions they are like the house they are living in right now conceptual house and we want to give them a better house to live in but if we just demolish the house that they are presently living in then they they may they mean if we have not earned their trust in them what will happen is first they will oppose the demolition and after we demolish they will just go away from us and then what we have done is we have rendered them homeless we have not given them a better home we have rendered them homeless so don’t disturb the minds of people who even if they are ignored and detached and even if you are wise and detached but act in such a way that they can be elevated so yes focussing on the purpose helps us in helps us in both being both being both faithful and sensitive it’s accurate and accuracy and sensitivity as you put it we are our time is going and I’m going to ask you some quick fire questions and maybe I will ask the question from a different perspective just to see what it may draw out if I was to ask you what are the three main reasons that devotees what are the three main reasons that devotees for devotees who may not be able to connect deeply with the Gita what why do you think why do you think devotees don’t or may not feel connected to the Gita or feel like they’re deriving that inspiration or that insight from the Gita what would you say three observable things that you’ve seen which may block that connection it’s seen as too basic it’s seen as too philosophical and it’s seen as too repetitive so that’s why that’s what those are three main reasons and I think all three can be addressed it’s basic but it’s not just basic there are layers and levels of meaning it’s philosophical but it’s not just philosophy it’s also personal it’s a personal discipline Krishna and Arjuna and it’s repetitive but actually Prabhupada says repetition is a good thing so it’s repeating but from different perspectives so if you start saying okay this point but there’s a beautiful example for repetition ultimately all music is made of the seven swaras only but it’s just the way they bring them together it can produce very different sounds all languages all English languages are 26 letters but how they come together that’s different so one devotee once gave a a nice metaphor he said the Gita is a song and every song has a chorus and so what you’ll find in the Gita chorus which is which is repeatedly coming up and instead of seeing that as a repetition like any good song it brings your focus back to the main purpose of that song is that’s beautiful I’m going to write on this now I’m already thinking of verses which can be like the consider the Gita’s choruses now or themes not verses thank you for sharing that so this is beautiful the devotees or readers may see the Gita as too basic too philosophical or too repetitive and when we break out of those conceptions then we avail ourselves of the opportunity to see the deep beauty of the Gita wonderful wonderful I was thinking when you look at western scholars or the first westerners who are interacting with the Gita it seems that more than bhakti the message that they were really focussing on from the Gita was the concept of karma yoga or detached work that seems to come out in a lot of writings of those outside of the Indian tradition that that studied the Gita that became like a key message for them the idea of working without attachment to the result and the power of that concept that’s interesting I was just wanting to ask you maybe you can comment on that and my follow-up question to you would be if you were to share three concepts from the Gita which you think are powerful for the world which will immediately give people a sense of the brilliance of the Bhagavad Gita or the relevance of it if you were to share three insights from the Gita or concepts or philosophical illuminations what would those concepts be okay well as far as karma yoga is concerned this is somewhere I am still somewhat conflicted see there are two ways you could look at the Gita the Gita teaches about bhakti and that’s what it teaches and any reading of the Gita which emphasises anything else is off it’s wrong yes as far as the conclusion is concerned Krishna is very categorical at the same time Krishna has himself said the Manushyanam Sahasreshu thousands of people few will endeavour to know me and among thousands of those who endeavour few will actually come to know me so those who are ready to approach Krishna with the motive of pure devotion full surrender they are going to be rare so for those who are not ready for that can other others find something in the Gita my understanding is yes surely they can find something valuable in the Gita the only problem is if you see when I read the Bhagavad Gita only Krishna says that going to Swarga is a part of Karma Kanda and that’s a valid Vedic teaching but what Krishna approaches in 243 and 44 is not that somebody is aspiring to go to Swarga go to heaven but that there is nothing else in the Vedas except this that is the problem so if somebody draws leadership lessons from the Bhagavad Gita if somebody draws some lessons for self-help from the Bhagavad Gita if somebody draws lessons about about lifestyle management from the Bhagavad Gita hmm I would say that it’s at least bringing the Bhagavad Gita in the horizon of people’s consciousness otherwise it’s not there at all so the problem that comes is not that somebody feels inspired to focus on Karma Yoga through the Bhagavad Gita but that or somebody emphasises Karma Yoga as a teaching of the Gita the problem comes when they say Karma Yoga is the teaching of the Bhagavad Gita is the teaching or the highest teaching it’s like in our tradition the difference is Brahmavada and Mayavada we fully accept that the ultimate reality has an impersonal aspect and we respect Prabhupada says Maitreya Muni was a impersonalist Shamik Rishi was an impersonalist and we don’t criticise them for that they’re respected in the Bhagavad Gita but the problem is that when they think the impersonalist impersonalist aspect absolute truth is the highest and everything else is either subordinate or illusory similarly yes Karma Yoga may be drawn from the Bhagavad Gita and it’s not bad necessarily as long as it’s not made the conclusive teaching so just to build on your point it seems as though Karma Yoga also would be a more universal message which would relate to all people regardless of how you know some may not want to get into a personal relationship with God in that way or it seems like a more universal message that regardless of one’s theological standpoint can be a very powerful concept to apply in one’s life yeah to live a happier and healthier life that is very true you know if you consider in one sense the whole yoga phenomena that has spread in the west now there are many distortions that have come with the yoga phenomena but through it all there are people who have developed appreciation for eastern spirituality and those who practise yoga are by yoga I mean physical yoga asanas primarily those who practise yoga asanas they are among the people who are the most receptive to to even Bhakti Yoga all of them are not so my understanding is something similar now we would not necessarily we would not teach yoga without Bhakti Yoga but if others are teaching yoga and they are not teaching Bhakti Yoga is that a good thing or a bad thing that is one of the things I find in the Bhagavad Gita that good and bad are contextual they are not universal it is based on where someone is at a particular place Krishna himself says at one point that to consider that people will label you a coward and therefore don’t give up your duty that’s what he says in the second chapter of the Bhagavad Gita that you you’ll feel more humiliated than anything worse than death for you but that same Krishna later says that be equipoise among in pleasure and pain non and dishonour be detached from the opinion of the people of the world so which is the teaching of the Gita well it depends if somebody can be inspired to the right thing by considering that people will approach me if I don’t do the right thing that’s could do the right thing but if somebody can do the right thing based on intrinsic motivation without needing others appreciation that’s better but that doesn’t mean if somebody is doing the right thing because extrinsic motivation is bad so the Gita itself has multilevel teachings and that’s why in a one zero approach is not really I would say in harmony with the teaching of the Gita itself so yes Karma Yoga is some what some people might take some people focus on six chapter of the Gita and they talk about Dhyana Yoga that’s also not bad it’s if as long as they don’t just divorce that chapter from the rest of the Gita if you consider three of the teachings of the Gita which I find most relevant or inspiring today one of them is about expanding our consciousness now we may have to live with pain but we don’t have to live in pain that the Arjuna Krishna did not magically remove Arjuna’s dilemma I had to fight against my relatives but Krishna gave him a higher purpose for life higher purpose for what he was doing and there was a pain of fighting his relatives but in the light of that higher purpose that pain became manageable so the Gita expands our consciousness of life and its purpose and as it may shrinks our problems and pains we may have to live with pain but we don’t have to live in pain so that’s broadly based on 1858 in the Bhagavad Gita and the second what I find especially encouraging is that this 1716 Arjuna talks about satisfaction as austerity of the mind manaprasada so I find that satisfaction is not just an emotion it’s a decision and each of us has to take that decision to be satisfied and what the Gita does to either it’s in the light of the same point which I mentioned earlier see Arjuna could have looked at his situation be dissatisfied I had to fight against my relatives I had to fight against my elders but Arjuna looked at Krishna guided Arjuna’s vision to see not that not the bad that he was confronting right now but the good that he will achieve eventually and that’s how at the end of the Gita is peaceful become calm and composed so satisfaction is not just an emotion it’s a decision and again the Gita can help us to make this decision and the third point which I find is that God is not or Krishna is not just a fulfiller of our fulfiller of desires Krishna is the fulfilment of desires so he is I see this is the evolution from 716 to 719 in the 716 is where the initially a person approaching God God please remove his problem please give me some wealth that is we see God as the fulfiller of our desires but in 792 what happens and Krishna is the fulfilment of our desires so our so if we let the Gita guide us our desires may or may not be fulfilled but our heart will find fulfilment those are three quick things that I can think of right beautiful beautiful I think that’s such a such a beautiful note to end on and I think we covered a lot of good ground today we began by talking about the Gita your relationship with the Gita you talked about the four stages that you went through in your study of the Gita and then our first major discussion was really about drawing insight from the Gita and how there is licence and encouragement for us to use our intelligence as long as the insights that we draw are supported by the Acharyas, by Guru Sadhu Shastra and those insights illuminate the Sadhya and the Sadhana of the Gita just like our Acharyas have many different perspectives on the Gita but ultimately arrive at the same point every reader of the Gita can also worship the Gita by their intelligence and be very thoughtful to understand what’s going on here and then we talked about how the Gita is not just a book of philosophy it’s not just Krishna’s words but when we interact deeper we can understand so much about Krishna and indeed Arjuna’s personality through their words and in that way the Gita is also illuminating on the character and the personality of the speakers of the Gita and this makes it very nourishing to one’s heart. We talked about the three blocks that may come for someone that prevents them from connecting deeply with the Gita they see that the Gita is too basic, they see that it’s too philosophical, they see that it’s too repetitive but you beautifully unpack those misconceptions for us and then you ended by sharing three key messages that we can share with the world about the Gita or that the Gita gives us that number one we live with pain but we don’t have to live in pain, that satisfaction is not just an emotion but satisfaction is a decision that we can make in our life and Krishna is not just the fulfiller of desires but Krishna is the ultimate fulfilment of our desires and this was a very sweet point which is perhaps the culmination of the Gita where we fully connect with Krishna through his divine words. So thank you so much.

You have robbed me of my monopoly of a detailed summary at the end of a podcast. I tried my best to follow it. It’s quite precise.

Thank you so much. You know we should meet again. Thank you so much.

I appreciate your time. You know we would like to maybe in the future when we meet we can reverse this and I ask you about your relationship with the Gita which I discussed so much on the Gita also.