​Disproportionate punishment can be atrocious – Ashwattama pastime analysis 2

​Evening program at ISKCON, Perth

Hare Krishna.

We continue our discussion from yesterday when we discussed about the story of Ashwatthama. We were discussing the theme of resisting the temptation to punish. So Ashwatthama felt that Drona had been killed unrighteously by the Pandavas, and therefore he could take revenge by hook or by crook.

And we discussed elaborately how the killing of Drona was not a planned act of malevolence, it was an impulsive act, which was opposed even by the Pandavas, Arjuna and others, Yudhishthir especially. So then here we stop at the point of how Ashwatthama was given the empowering sword by Mahadeva, and then he came at the outskirts of the Pandava camp. And when he came there, he was by this time seething with anger.

On the 18th day when Duryodhana had fallen, at that time Ashwatthama had gone to him, and he said, you enthrone me, make me the commander, and I will kill the Pandavas. So here he had come with the plan of killing the Pandavas. And on that fateful day, or night we could say, Krishna had told the Pandavas that there is an ancient tradition that when a war ends and the victorious army, the commanders of the victorious army, when they win the war, at that time they should on that night sleep on the war field itself.

The idea is when we sleep at a place where we are completely relaxed. So the fact that you are sleeping on the war field means that the war has been decisively won. So the five Pandavas, Krishna and one of the close relatives of Krishna, the Satyaki, who had also fought on the side of the Pandavas.

The Narayan Sena of Krishna had fought as per his will against him from the Kauravas' side. But Satyaki was the warrior who had fought on the Pandavas' side. So these seven people, they on that night chose to sleep on the war field itself.

So the Kurukshetra war was a vast plain. And on one side were the Kauravas and their camp and on the other side was the Pandavas' camp. So the Kauravas' forces had been systematically destroyed.

And the last few troops that had remained, they had fled when Shalya had fallen. And then the Duryodhana had also fled. So there was absolutely nothing on the side of the Kauravas' camp.

And on the other side of the war field, there was the Pandavas' camp. And on the Pandavas' camp, the Pandava soldiers or whatever were remaining, on their side also there were casualties, but certainly not as much as on the Kauravas' side. Lots of Pandava soldiers were still there.

But they were all camping on this side of the war field. And there the Pandava commanders were also there. So when Ashwatthama came, it was night time, and he saw the Pandava camp and he assumed the Pandavas would be there.

And then he stealthily entered into the camp. And he told Krutavarman and Krupada that you should stay on guard to see that nobody should flee from this camp. And he went stealthily inside and then he saw one camp that was one tent within the camp which was elaborately decorated.

It was clearly the tent of the commander or someone closer to the commander of the calibre. And he went inside that tent and he saw there were five beds and five people sleeping on the bed. Savage thrill of delight shot through him.

And he just went there and there were sleeping warriors, he just one by one knocked off their heads. And as he knocked, not even a sound, because even before they could be aware, they just died. And he was delighted, he said, yes, I've killed the Pandavas.

And thinking like this, he went berserk with a savage bloodthirsty delight. And he started screaming like a wild animal. The warriors started waking up and they started coming.

What is this noise coming from? The guards on the Pandava camp, Ashwathama had initially evaded them. But now that he had achieved this victory, he thought it was a victory. Actually killing a sleeping warrior is no victory at all.

But he just threw all caution to the winds. And he thought, yes, I am the Mahadeva. They started roaring and screaming and guards came out.

He just slaughtered the guards with his sword. And as their screams spread far and wide, actually guards started coming from the nearby camps. There were other warriors who were sleeping.

They just woke up and they did not have any armour. They just tried to look where are their weapons and they tried to attack. But Ashwathama was slaughtering them one by one.

And then he looked around and he saw the camp of the tent of Dhrishtadyumna. He charged into the tent and he hit Dhrishtadyumna on the head. Dhrishtadyumna woke up and he started kicking him severely with his feet.

As he was kicking him, Dhrishtadyumna woke up and he saw this Ashwathama. Ashwathama tried to fight but Ashwathama was filled with a mad rage and power. And Dhrishtadyumna realised it is impossible to fight him.

And he said, Ashwathama, if you want to kill me, kill me like a warrior. So Ashwathama laughed wildly and he says, a killer of one's guru does not deserve to be killed like a warrior. You deserve to be killed like an animal.

And he started pounding with his feet. Dhrishtadyumna on his head, pounding, pounding, pounding. And he literally crushed his skull by the pound of his legs.

And Dhrishtadyumna died a miserable death. And as other warriors started coming out over there, he just started slaughtering all of them one by one by one. Whoever came, they were all slaughtered.

So most warriors, although they were half awake, just coming out of sleep, partially armed or unarmed, without any armour, still most of them tried to defend, tried to counter Ashwathama. And Ashwathama just ruthlessly slaughtered all of them. And the whole Pandava camp soon resembled like a crematorium where corpses had been just dumped without any last rites being performed.

And a few warriors, a few soldiers tried to flee. But whoever tried to flee, right at the gate, because this tent was a secure establishment, so there were not many exits or entries. The one place where there was an exit, that was the place where Krutaparman was guarding.

The other place, Kripa was guarding. And they just slaughtered anyone who tried to escape. And there was only one soldier who sneaked out from under the wall and he went to the place where the Pandavas were and he informed them.

Meanwhile, Ashwathama, she felt delighted. The whole camp had been destroyed. And depending on one's mood, depending on the mood, level of consciousness that one is in, one thinks of success in different terms.

So, last year I was in Los Angeles. I was giving an Artha Forum meeting to some business leaders. So the deputy general manager of Intel was there.

And he said that you are talking about spirituality and business. So he says, spirituality operates in compassion, whereas business operates in competition. So how can spirituality and business come together? Aren't their driving values opposite? So I explained, yes, competition itself is not bad.

Competition can be in different moods. So there can be competition in sattva guna, in the mood of goodness. There can be competition in the mood of passion.

And there can be competition in the mood of ignorance. So competition in the mood of ignorance means that I want to win by hook or by crook. And I want to not just win by rising above others.

I want to win by pushing others down. So even if I don't succeed, I should ensure that others fail. Most of us know the story that there was a god came to a person who was very envious of his neighbour.

And he told, what do you want? He says, before I give you, I warn you, that whatever I give you, I'm going to give double of that to your neighbour. Then he thought, what should I ask? He said, God, destroy one eye of mine. So this is destructive competition.

In tamasic competition, one is not concerned about whether one wins or not. One is simply concerned that the other should be defeated, other should be destroyed. In passion, one cares only for one's success.

One doesn't go out of the way to destroy others, but one doesn't mind trampling on others so that I succeed. Whereas in goodness, one sees the presence of others as spurs for bringing out the best within oneself. So the idea is, if there is competition in goodness, the result of that competition is that both competitors try to become better than themselves.

And that sort of competition in goodness is the pursuit of excellence. It is not just the pursuit of victory at all costs, or victory at any cost. So, when there is a healthy rivalry, competition itself is not bad.

Healthy rivalry can cause both rivals to actually become better. But here, when Ashwatthama killed the Pandavas' forces, he was in the darkest mood of ignorance, where he thought there is actually no glory in such an unmatched fight, where the warriors were mostly unarmed, they were unalert, they were without any armour, armour, alert, nothing was there. See, Kshatriya code means, usually it should be that the fight should be among equals, both should be equally armed, and both should be equally alert.

So, if you see, nowadays there is often a fear of religious violence, especially Islamic terrorism is a great spectre for people. And now, some of these terrorists claim that they are fighting in the name of God. But, they are actually fighting not in the name of God, they are fighting for their own ego.

And because they have their own conception of God, which is simply a servant of their ego. So, they are fighting for their own ego. And the way they fight terrorism is actually the utter antithesis of Dharma Yuddha.

In Dharma Yuddha, the enemy should be equal, the enemy should be armed, and the enemy should be alert. Terrorists attack civilians, they are not armed, they are not equal, and they are not even alert. So, this is, there is actually no heroism.

It's total cowardice. This kind of attack, it's total cowardice. And so, for Ashwathama to not feel any remorse at all.

Actually, when we do wrong, we feel guilty, we feel remorseful. And actually, that guilt is our innate psychological defence mechanism. Just like if I put my hand near a hot thing, then I feel the heat unbearably and I move away.

That protects me from exposing myself to dangerous stimuli. Similarly, the conscience that we have within us, which often makes us feel bad when we do wrong, that conscience protects us internally. But, when people do some wrong activity again and again and again, then at that time, they become so distorted that their whole conception can become so warped that they do a wrong activity and they don't even feel that they are doing anything wrong.

So, when that happens, then that person becomes like a pervert. There are serial killers who do all sorts of horrible things. So, although, Ashwathama, while he was doing all this, he was actually thinking that I am doing the right thing.

What was his idea? That the Pandavas killed unfairly and therefore, I am killing unfairly. But as I said, there are degrees. The Pandavas were not planned and it was just one person's impulsive action.

Whereas, his was planned, cold-blooded, systematic slaughter. And even when there is to be punishment, there is to be retribution, there has to be proportion. One of the principles of justice is, even if there is punishment, there has to be proportionate punishment.

Now, the idea of justice, what is the purpose of justice? Now, if a person has committed wrong, why should that person be punished? There are multiple reasons for that. First is, by that, that person learns the lesson. Or at least learns, the person will not correct one's behaviour, but the person learns that there are consequences for my action.

Therefore, that person may be deterred from doing that action. Along with that, so when, say, some person commits wrong, there is a victim of that wrong, there is a victimiser and there is general society. So, the victimiser has to be given strong lessons, that you cannot get away with this.

And the victim, there is a great sense of violation and anger and injustice when somebody is victimised. And that society, that the government, that the king, takes that sense of unjust pain seriously. That their grief is to some extent mitigated when justice is served.

And for the rest of society, when a victimiser is punished, that becomes a lesson, that we should not act like this. So, it's important for the individual who has done wrong, for the individual who has been wrong, and for the society in general. For all these purposes, justice has to be administered.

But justice has to be proportionate. If justice is disproportionate, that means, say, somebody, a person commits a robbery. And when there is a tyrannical king, in mediaeval, in pre-modern Europe, especially in England, there was the royals and there were the common people.

So, these royals who were lords and earls and dukes and all these people, they were privileged. So, if a person would just rob, a starving child would rob a wallet, maybe 1 pound or 5 pounds or 10 pounds. And for that, the child would be put in jail for 10 years.

So, this is disproportionate punishment. So, when one has a sense of being wronged, and because of that, one decides to punish. I have been wronged and I am going to punish.

But when one has to punish, and if one has the power to punish somehow, at that time, the temptation is to go beyond proportion. And, as it says, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, here, Ashwathama got the power.

He had that anger, he lost his morality, he got the power from Mahadeva, and what he did was he exceeded all proportion. So, actually, to do wrong is bad, to rationalise one's wrong is worse. To rationalise means I am wrong, but I somehow try to prove to others that I am right.

So, rationalise. Rationalise, it can be spelled as r-a-t-i-o-n-a-l-l-i-e-s. Rationalise.

So, when we rationalise, we use rationality to speak lies. We try to prove to others that we are right. But worse than that, first thing is to do wrong, second is to try to justify the wrong, justify the wrong to be right.

Third and the most dangerous thing is to believe oneself that the wrong is right. In the second case, at least one knows I did the wrong, but somehow I don't want to bear the consequences, so I try to justify that I am right. But if one convinces oneself that one is right, then there is very little hope for such a person to be redeemed.

So, some of these jihadis who fight war, they are so distorted in their worldview, they think that by killing innocent people, they are becoming suicide bombers, they are programmed into believing that they will go to Jannat, they will go to heaven, and there they will enjoy 73 virgins for all of eternity. So, the idea is what? The idea is that God is a supplier of virgins. That is their conception of God.

So, it's a very, at best, what we could say, it is a very materialistic conception of spirituality, materialistic conception of God. And their idea is, in the Vedic culture, there is this understanding that if you live righteously, then we will get good results. Dharma will lead to Artha.

Artha will lead to Kama. But ultimately there is Moksha. And above it all is Prema.

But when in religion Artha and Kama are what are primarily emphasised, it's a complete programme of Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. So, if Artha and Kama are only emphasised, then Dharma simply becomes a tool to Artha and Kama. And at that time, Artha means financial prosperity, Kama means sense gratification.

So, people can become very distorted and they can have their own interpretations of Dharma. And with their own interpretation of Dharma, they can do whatever they like. And they justify it in the name of religion.

So, there are these Islamic Jihadists, when they conquer a territory, they think that money and women, they are the gifts that Allah is giving to us. So, some of these Jihadists are so distorted, that after they capture a woman, before they violate the woman, they pray to Allah, thanking Allah for giving us this gift. And after violating the woman, they thank Allah again.

So, this is the darkest of Tamoguna, where one becomes so infatuated by one's own sense of righteousness, that one becomes desensitised to all other suffering. Tamoguna means one is completely desensitised to other's emotions. So, Ashwatthama, if we are to say in today's language, he was a brutal terrorist.

No, he could not see that he was killing sleeping people, defenceless people, helpless people. And even after that, he just went. And as he was going out, he thought, yes, I had promised to Duryodhana, I had promised to Duryodhana that I will, I will kill the Pandavas.

He said, I will prove it to him. So, he again went back to the tent, and he picked up the five heads. And as he picked up the five heads, he looked carefully, he saw, it was now by this time, the light had started coming up.

And as the light had started coming up, he looked carefully and he saw, hey, these are not the Pandavas. These are actually Pandavas' sons. And he felt shocked.

What has happened? Where are the Pandavas gone? What should I do? And by this time, the empowerment had already left him. Now, that sword was there, but the surge of power that he had been feeling throughout, it had all gone. And he realised that now he could not kill the Pandavas.

So, he decided that let me try to please Duryodhana. And he just took those five heads. And he took those five heads, and he went to Duryodhana.

Duryodhana was lying on the war field, where he had been given the fatal blow by Bhima. And there, when he came, he came to Duryodhana and said, I have killed the Pandavas. In fact, I have killed the whole Pandava army.

Whole Pandava army. And here are the Pandavas' heads. And Duryodhana was delighted.

He said, oh, Ashwatthama, you achieved what Bhishma Dronakarana, nobody could achieve. You are a glorious warrior. You have attained victory for my army.

Give me the heads of the Pandavas. And he got the heads. And now he was immobilised from the waist down.

Because his thigh had been smashed. But still, he had strength in his arms. So, he still could not believe that the Pandavas had been killed.

Because at one particular time, on the eighth day of the war, there had been a fierce fight between Bhima and Duryodhana. Actually, Bhima had been just plundering the Kaurava forces. And getting angry, Duryodhana had challenged him.

And Bhima had severely wounded Duryodhana. Duryodhana had almost died on that day. So, at that time, and his many brothers had been killed, his many warriors had been killed.

So, he was sobered down. So, that evening, when they were meeting, he had asked Bhishma, How is it that although you, Drona, all such great warriors are there, still we are being defeated? So, at that time, Bhishma had told him, He says, I have been crying myself hoarse to explain to you that Krishna is the Supreme Vishnu. Wherever he is, there is going to be victory.

No matter what to speak of the whole army of the Kauravas, even if the armies of the Devatas and Danavas combine together, fight against the Pandavas, as long as Krishna is with them, they cannot win. Wherever Madhava is there, that is where victory will be. So, when he heard this, Duryodhana became a little sober.

And he said, Oh, Bhishma, please tell me something more about Krishna. He enquired about Krishna at that time. And then, Bhishma was delighted.

Bhishma is a devotee. He wants to speak Krishna Katha. So, he started speaking the past tense of Krishna.

How Krishna as a demon had killed Putana. How Krishna had lifted Govardhan Hill. And he went into ecstasy.

So, Bhishma's ecstasy was increasing more and more. And Duryodhana's spirits were going down and down. He was becoming sober.

He was becoming gloomy. At that time, as he became gloomy like this, that night when he went to his tent to allow to sleep, he thought, you know, is Krishna God? If Krishna is God, then let me bow down to Him. Maybe my good fortune will come up.

So, he went and bowed to Him before sleeping. That was the only time he bowed to Krishna. Next morning, he woke up.

Whatever effect of that enlightenment had been there, that went off. He said, I am going to fight. But by that time, he had become convinced that the Pandavas are almost impossible to be killed.

So, he just couldn't believe that Ashwathama had killed the Pandavas. And he took the Pandavas' head and he just took it in the arm. He took Bhima's head.

Because Bhima had killed him, so he wanted to take revenge at least against the head of Bhima, if not the body of Bhima. So, he wanted to crush the head of Bhima. And he took it and within just a little pressure, the head got crushed.

And he looked carefully and he said, Ashwathama, what have you done? He said, all my sons have been killed. My grandsons have been killed. And now, if you kill the Pandavas' sons, our dynasty is going to end.

So, what have you done? And speaking like this in great lamentation, at that time, Duryodhana died. At that time, Ashwathama felt great sorrow. Not because he had committed a wrong activity, but because his wrong activity had not fulfilled its purpose.

And then, he realised that there is going to be reprisal for what I have done. And he decided to flee. And as he fled, in the meanwhile, that one soldier who had survived, who had fled, he came to the Pandavas' camp and he told the Pandavas what had happened.

Draupadi fainted when she heard that all her five sons had been killed. The Pandavas were in a ball of gloom. And Arjuna got furious.

And then, Arjuna said, I will avenge the death of your sons, Draupadi. And he got on the chariot and he started charging forwards. Krishna was there with him.

And they charged onwards. And as Ashwathama was fleeing along, Ashwathama's horse got exhausted. And he realised that there is no hope for him.

So, he took his final weapon, which was the Brahmastra. And his father had given it to him, because Drona was attached to his son. He said, but don't use it, because this weapon can cause the destruction of the whole world if it is not used properly.

Just like nowadays in the world there are nuclear weapons, weapons of mass destruction, especially nuclear weapons. And all other people are afraid that if these weapons fall in the wrong hands, if they fall in the hands of some hot-headed dictator or some terrorist, they may just blow up huge parts of the world. Because of that, Drona's son here, Ashwathama, he shot the Brahmastra.

And he shot the Brahmastra. At that time, Arjuna, taking Krishna's guidance, he shot his own Brahmastra. And then he withdrew the combined force.

Otherwise, the world would have been destroyed by that combined force. And Ashwathama realised his Brahmastra has been withdrawn. He tried to flee on his feet, but Arjuna caught him.

And now here, Arjuna faced the same temptation to punish, which Ashwathama had faced earlier. So, he could have been justified. You killed all our five sons.

You killed all the others. What cowardice! Arjuna, just five days ago, when Abhimanyu had been killed unfairly, at that time, Arjuna had been furious. And he had wreaked havoc in the Kaurava camp on the 14th day and he had finally killed Jayadratha.

So now, at that time, at least Abhimanyu had been fighting. Abhimanyu had got exhausted and six warriors had attacked him. But still Abhimanyu was conscious.

Now here, that was one son had been killed. Here, five sons had been killed. And they had been killed when they were sleeping.

Now, Arjuna, if he had wanted to rationalise, he could have rationalised. Kill you right here and now. But Arjuna did not do that.

Arjuna, he was the foremost warrior among the Pandavas. But still, he always acted according to his position. He always deferred to the authority of Yudhishthira.

Because Yudhishthira was the king. And Krishna, Arjuna was very angry, furious in fact. But after he caught Ashwathama, Krishna was also angry.

And Krishna tested Arjuna over here. And Krishna said, Arjuna, don't spare this wicked person who has killed sleeping children. It was not only sleeping people, it was children.

Actually, why children? The idea is that for Ashwathama, the Pandavas' sons, Ashwathama and Arjuna more or less were equal. So for him, the Pandavas' sons were like his sons, his nephews. Now even in war, when two warriors are fighting, or two soldiers are fighting, if both of them are wearing a helmet and they are fighting, and there is a soldier who has fought, he is 35, 40, 45, and he is about to beat the opponent, and his helmet falls off, and he sees that it is just a 12-year-old boy.

And he also says, should I beat a boy like this? A 15-year-old boy. So, it was all the more grievous because he had killed children. So, Krishna tested him and said, don't spare this person.

So sometimes, when the temptation comes, we may be fully justified in doing the wrong. Last year when I had come to Melbourne, one devotee asked the question, if you have to choose between right and wrong, why are there so many wrong options and so few right options? So I answered that actually that's how it always is in any multiple choice exam. There are four wrong options, one right option.

So, if the choice was based only on chance, then you could very well blame the teacher. You put four wrong options, that's why I got wrong. But the choice is not based on probability.

The choice is based on education. So by education, one is meant to choose the right option. The wrong options are given to check whether one has learned or not.

So similarly in this world, we are given wrong options because many people have wrong desires. But Krishna also gives us spiritual knowledge. By which he can tell us what is right and what is wrong.

And then when we choose the right option, we get marks for that. We move closer to Krishna for that. So here, it was Krishna himself who was presenting Ashwathama the wrong option.

The option, not Ashwathama, Arjuna, the wrong option. He said, punish him. So Arjuna said, wait.

He said, let us take him to Yudhishthira. Let Yudhishthira decide. And then he bound Ashwathama and he took him to Yudhishthira.

And at that time, Draupadi saw Yudhishthira, saw Ashwathama bound and brought in front of them, arrested. So Draupadi, sometimes she is depicted as a very vengeful, heartless, calculative kind of woman. But she was not like that.

Yes, she was angry when she was dishonoured. And what woman would not be angry when she would be publicly dishonoured like that? But even before the war, when Krishna went as Shantidoot, even Draupadi was ready to put aside her animosity. And she told Krishna that, strive for peace.

Strive for peace. So here, when she saw Ashwathama, Ashwathama is the son of a Brahmana. And she offered him respects.

And he says, don't dishonour him like this. And it was not that she was blind to the grievous wrong that she had done. What was she thinking? She, rather than thinking, he is killed by sons, we should punish him.

She thought of what killing him would do. And she said that, just as I am now grief-struck because my sons are dead, Kripi, his mother, would be grief-struck if we kill him. Therefore, we should not kill him.

Now, when she spoke very forcefully, very strongly she argued. Gently but firmly she argued. And Yudhishthira, as it is, was a forgiving kind of person.

Yudhishthira Maharaj, he was a Kshatriya, but he had a Kshatriya body and a Brahmana heart. So, he was always tolerant, forgiving. And he said, yes, Draupadi is right.

And she spoke so strongly that even Nakula and Sahadev, they agreed. But there was one person who did not agree. And that was Bhima.

Bhima was furious. Now Bhima was such a person that he, actually when he would be fighting in the war, he was also good at bow and arrow. But when the enemy would attack too much, he would just put aside his bow and arrow.

And he would even jump off his chariot and just take his mace and charge into the enemy camp. Nobody would do like this. If two armies are fighting from opposite side, and suddenly the enemy just charges, they try to shoot, nothing happens.

He would just boil his mace around and he would charge into the enemy camp. And he would just plunder over there. And when he would plunder like that, sometimes he would just enter the enemy camp and he would have slaughtered so many of them.

And his whole body would be covered with blood. And the only white part of his would be his white pupils. And he would laugh so his white teeth would be seen.

He would be laughing. And just the sight of him would cause terror in the ranks of the Kauravas. They would just flee seeing him.

And one of the strategies in war is intimidation. Intimidate the enemy. If the enemy loses the morale to fight, that is half the battle already won.

So Bhima would excel in this. When he would be angry, such sounds would come out of him, the enemies would see. Is this a human being or what kind of creature is this? So he just threatened people like that.

So here Bhima was seething in anger. He said, I will kill him right now. And he just charged towards him to kill him.

So Krishna immediately assumed four arms. And with two arms he held Bhima back and with two arms he held Draupadi back. And he said, calm down, calm down.

He said, Arjuna, you decide what you should do now. So Arjuna said, according to the rules of Dharma, an aggressor who is killed should be killed. But according to the rules of Dharma, a Brahmana should not be killed.

Knowing all this, Arjuna decided what to do. And Arjuna at that time, he thought, and he said, actually he is a Brahmana, so he should not be killed. But at the same time he is part of the Kshatriya, and I am part of the Kshatriya, he deserves to be punished.

So for a Kshatriya, dishonour is worse than death. And therefore, what we will do is, respecting his Brahmanical nature, we will not kill him. But considering he has acted like a Kshatriya, we will give him a punishment that is equal to or worse than death.

And that is dishonour. They took off his jewel crown, which had been the source of his power, and then they gave him a special haircut. And they let him go at that time.

So here, Arjuna demonstrated maturity. Arjuna demonstrated great self-control. He had full justification for becoming angry, for taking brutal revenge.

But he did not do that. So that's why when we act, it is important that even when we are angry, even when we are justified in our anger, still even at that time, there has to be a sense of proportion and balance. I will conclude with one anecdote from the Ramayana, one incident from the Ramayana, and then we can have question and answers.

So, after Ram had been exiled, and Sita and Lakshman had also gone with him, so they were residing in Chitrakoot. When they were residing in Chitrakoot, at that time, suddenly they heard, Chitrakoot is a very peaceful place, and suddenly they heard the sound of an army approaching. Ram told Lakshman, climb on the tree and see what is happening.

And Lakshman saw a giant elephant on which was the standard, Shatrunjay was the name of the elephant, and on that Shatrunjay, there was the mark of the king of Ayodhya. So, at that time, he thought, oh Bharat has come here, and Bharat has come with the army, and Lakshman just blazed up in anger. And Lakshman said, that wicked son of Kaikeyi, he is not satisfied having sent you to the forest, now he has come with the army to kill you.

But he doesn't know the force of my arms. Today, the Chitrakoot forest will drink the blood of that wicked Bharat. And whoever comes in the way, they will all be killed today.

So, Ram told Lakshman, cool down. He didn't use those words, cool down. He said, oh Bharat, oh Lakshman, he said, why are you so angry? He said, I know Bharat, and Bharat's love for me is no less than your love for me.

I am sure Bharat has come to try to persuade me to get him to come back to the kingdom. And he says, why are you so angry? Is it that Bharat offended you any time? Or is it that in the rush of enthusiasm, you decided to come with me to the forest? And now when you are seeing the reality of the austerity of forest life, you are becoming cranky now. And you are thinking that Bharat is enjoying royal luxury and you are living in the forest.

That's why you are angry with him. He says, if that is the case now, every sentence that Ram was speaking, Lakshman was getting deflated by that. And I said, if that is the case, oh Lakshman, then wait.

When Bharat comes, I will tell Bharat to stay in the forest and you can go and rule on his behalf. But Lakshman was completely mortified. And then when Bharat came and how earnestly, desperately Bharat beseeched to Ram, please come back to the kingdom.

And then finally, Ram, he begged Ram, give me your sandals. He took his sandals. Normally, he took the sandals and put them on his head and carried them back.

Normally, when a patriarch, a wealthy father dies, there is succession struggle. The sons fight, I want the biggest pie of the cake. So, here there is a succession conflict.

Normally, succession conflicts are because of selfishness. Now, I want more. Here there is a succession conflict because of selflessness.

Both are saying, you take the kingdom. Imagine if two brothers are having a dispute and one brother gives the sandals to the other. The other brother will take the sandals and beat the brother only with the sandals.

But Bharat took those sandals and he went back. So, when Lakshman saw this, Lakshman was so mortified. After that, when Ram and Lakshman were sitting in the forest at that time, Lakshman turned to Ram and he said, why do I get angry so quickly? So, at that time, Ram replied, he says, you are sentimental.

So, Lakshman becomes a little perplexed and he says, are sentiments bad? He says, are sentiments bad? He says, no, sentiments are not bad, Ram says. Sentiments are the ornament of life. But, he says, we should choose those sentiments that take us towards Dharma and we should reject those sentiments that take us away from Dharma.

So, emotions are natural to our life. But our emotions should elevate us. Our emotions should not degrade us.

So, Ashwatthama, his anger at the killing of Drona was justified. His wanting to take revenge was also justified. But, his acting unrighteously, his acting adharmically, his acting viciously for that purpose, that was not at all justified.

Entirely unjustified. So, he chose the emotion, but in pursuing that emotion, he gave up Dharma. And, that is something which we, as devotees, also have to be very careful.

Sometimes we may think that, oh, I know the truth now. I know the truth. And everybody else is an illusion.

And therefore, I will expose their illusion. So, we may say, if somebody comes to temple and they are going to some other organisation, they are following some spiritual leader, I am following, oh, fool, rascal. Now, when we start using these kind of words, actually, we may justify also, you know.

A sadhu's words are meant to cut the illusions of the conditioned souls. So, I am speaking strong words to cut their illusions. But, actually, we have to ask really, am I a sadhu? I may assume that.

But, imagine, surgeon's knife is meant to cut. But, surgery is never the first line of treatment. It is not that as soon as the patient comes in, the surgeon starts cutting up the patient.

First, there is diagnosis, there is explanation of the treatment. There is explanation of what is needed to be done. There are various normal treatments tried out.

And when nothing works out, then the consent of the patient is taken for the surgery. After taking the consent of the patient also, there is anaesthesia that is given. Then, after that, surgery is done.

And after surgery also, pain medicine is given. So, surgery is not a very simple thing. Similarly, sometimes we may have to speak strongly.

But, we have to be very, very careful. If we speak harshly, see, bhakti is entirely a voluntary activity. From the spiritual perspective, it is mandatory for the soul to serve Krishna to be happy.

But, in this world, people don't have to practise bhakti. So, if our harsh words, if our strong words, they discourage people, they alienate people, and they give up practising bhakti, then our strong words, they are not cutting their illusions. They are cutting their bhakti lata beach.

They are cutting their inclination to serve Krishna. So, sometimes somebody may do wrong also. May have some wrong understanding or may do some wrong action.

But, there has to be always proportionate correction. If there is disproportionate correction, then people can become discouraged, people can become alienated. And, we are meant to help people come close to Krishna.

But, we may cause people to go away from Krishna. And, that is actually great violence. You know, nowadays atheism is spreading in the world.

And, a major cause of atheism is actually believers. The way people who believe God and the way people represent God, how they conduct, often they behave in ways that misrepresent God. And, that alienate people away from God.

And, we have to be, if we become self-righteous, we become holier than thou, and we try to, we speak insensitively, we speak harshly, and then people go away from Krishna. It's actually a great disservice to them. So, basically, the essence of preaching is not removing, is not smashing people's misconceptions.

The essence of preaching is not just speaking the right thing. The essence of preaching is actually attracting people towards Krishna. And, before we can attract people towards Krishna, we have to somehow communicate to people that we are their well-wishers.

If people are not convinced about that, if people are thinking, if people, if we see preaching as an antagonistic activity, that means you have an idea, I have an idea, and my idea is right and your idea is wrong. And, I will prove how your idea is wrong. If we approach preaching with an antagonistic activity, quite often, our original intent may be right.

Yes, I want to share Krishna's message. But, that intent is filtered and distorted through our ego. So, where, yes, it is Krishna's message that is right, but I want to prove that it is right.

So, then what happens is, we may be speaking, we may be trying to serve Krishna's cause, but we are like a compounder, a medical assistant who tries to do the surgery. And, then we end up doing more damage than good. So, we have to actually, when the great devotees speak strongly, they speak out of compassion.

They are like surgeons who are doing the surgery very carefully. But, we may be untrained medical staff who are meant to be assistants. So, if we try to do surgery, we will harm people terribly.

So, when words, when I say we are untrained, what does that mean? We are untrained, we may know the philosophy also very well. But, untrained means that our motives are not selfless. When we are preaching, quite often, we want to prove to others, I am right and you are wrong.

And, for that purpose, when words come from our ego, they go to people's ego and their ego gets activated. And, when their ego gets activated, they say the man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. So, people, even if you argue and defeat them, they still hold on to their opinions.

And, then there is no purpose that is served. We have the classic example of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Keshav Kashmiri, they had a discussion.

And, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu defeated Keshav Kashmiri. And, when he defeated Keshav Kashmiri, the students all started laughing. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, stop, don't laugh, he said.

And, very respectfully told Keshav Kashmiri, he says, you have come after a long day of travel and you just now composed a hundred verses. After all this physical and intellectual effort, you must be very tired. Therefore, go and rest, study your books and tomorrow we can continue this discussion.

So, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, for any observer and even for Keshav Kashmiri, it was clear that he had been defeated. But, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, even in defeating Keshav Kashmiri, did not dishonour Keshav Kashmiri. And, that was what enabled him to eventually surrender to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

So, we have to be very careful when we speak strongly, if we have a position of authority, whatever position it may be, if we try to act too strongly, disproportionately, insensitively, we alienate people. And, when we alienate people, that is a great disservice to Keshav. So, our purpose should be that it's not possible, usually speaking, that in one or two or three or even five interactions, if a person is having a particular worldview, particular understanding, that will be changed.

The change happens gradually. So, after our interaction with people, at the very least, what we should try to do, people should feel, yes, I met a nice person. I met a nice devotee.

The intelligent people, the thoughtful people, the sensitive people. If people get appreciation for devotees by interacting with devotees, that itself is a major step forward. And further, if people feel, yes, even if they don't become convinced right now, they feel, yes, this person, I don't agree, but they're good people, nice people, then that will open them for further discussion.

And later on, they will come towards Krishna. So, if we act self-righteously, if we take a holier-than-thou attitude and insensitively speak and try to correct others, then we may end up, as I said, alienating people. I saw one slogan on one car.

It says, Oh God, save me from your preachers. So, actually God saves us through his preachers. But if the preachers become arrogant, if the preachers become insensitive, then people want to go away from their preachers.

So that is actually, Srila Prabhupada, we may have a concept that he was a fool, rascal, he was speaking strongly. But he would speak strongly in a circle of very close disciples. In his public classes, in his books, he doesn't use such words very frequently.

And more importantly, Prabhupada was not just using fool and rascal. Prabhupada was a pure devotee of Krishna, who was radiating love of Krishna. Prabhupada was not judgemental.

Prabhupada was transcendental. And that's why, even when he was among hippies, now hippies were people, Prabhupada was a person who was a pure devotee and he had lived a pure life throughout his life. He had not even drunk tea or coffee once in his life.

And he was living among hippies, whose only regulative principle was to break all regulative principles. And what did Prabhupada do? Prabhupada was compassionately serving them. Prabhupada was cooking food for them.

He was serving them food. He was washing their plates. So Prabhupada was not judgemental.

Wherever Prabhupada saw a little spark of service towards Krishna, interest in Krishna, Prabhupada fanned that spark. And by that, he ensured that the people came closer to Krishna. So, our purpose is not just to speak the truth.

Our purpose is to attract people towards the truth. And we need to speak in such a way that people become attracted towards Krishna, not repelled from Krishna, not alienated from Krishna. As preachers, we are meant to remove the obstacles on people's path towards Krishna.

We are not meant to ourselves become an obstacle on people's path to Krishna. So, Prabhupada was compassionate. And Prabhupada attractively, in fact, irresistibly presented Krishna.

And that's how he attracted millions of people all over the world. So, I'll summarise. We talked about the second part of Ashwathama's pastime.

We discussed Ashwathama's story of how he brutally slaughtered everyone. And we discussed in that connection how to do wrong is bad, to rationalise one's wrongdoing is worse, but to oneself believe that the wrong is right is worst. At that time, one becomes practically incorrigible, irredeemable, just as serial killers may become, or just as terrorists become, where God becomes just a tool for their egoistic aggrandisement.

And even basic morality, basic humanity, basic sensitivity also, one may lose. And then we discussed elaborately, especially about how one, if one doesn't have a sense of conscience, and one doesn't have any defence against the wrong forces that are there within oneself, and that conscience has to be preserved and nourished by spiritual practise, not destroyed by one's own rationalisation. So, we discussed about compassion, goodness, passion, ignorance.

And then we also discussed how Arjuna faced a similar temptation to punish, could have been justified in taking vengeance against Ashwathama, but he acted proportionately. So, punishment is to be given in certain situations, but the purpose of punishment is to right the wrong done to the victim, to show the victim that there are consequences, and to educate society about the right course of action. But for all this to happen, there has to be proportionate punishment.

And Arjuna, even when he was goaded, in a sense, goaded by Krishna, still Arjuna did not succumb to the temptation to punish. He acted responsibly and he reconciled the principles over there and he chose the right course of action. And why did he, Ashwathama, succumb to the temptation to punish and Arjuna did not? Although both of them felt angry at the wrong that had happened to them, one was because Arjuna, he did not let that anger take him away from Dharma.

As Ashwathama let the anger take him away from Dharma. And that connection discussed about how Lakshmana and Ram's conversation, and Ram says the ornament, emotions are the ornaments of life, but we should choose those emotions that take us towards Krishna and not those emotions that take us away from Krishna. And that principle of away from Dharma, Ram says, not Krishna over there.

And lastly we discussed, as preachers, we are also spiritual warriors and we get power when we have spiritual knowledge. And with that spiritual knowledge, we can abuse the power of spiritual knowledge, we stamp the truth down others' throats and we may alienate people by that. So sometimes strong speech is required, but that is like a surgery being done, an expert surgeon is required for that.

And we have to be very careful, we develop, as I said before that, do a proper diagnosis by which the patient understands the gravity, the patient consents, and then also there has to be anaesthesia given. So all that means that we, by our way we deal, we convince people, we give people the faith that we are their well-wishers. And we explain things systematically to them so that they become attracted towards Krishna.

Otherwise, if we speak strongly and insensitively, we may be speaking the truth, but we may take people away from the truth. So Prabhupada spoke strongly, but he also loved purely. And it was his purity, it was not just his strong speech, it was his purity that attracted people to Krishna.

And he was not judgemental. Wherever he saw a spark of Krishna Bhakti, he actually attracted people towards Krishna. And similarly our purpose in our speaking is not just to speak the truth in a disproportionate way which people can't digest, but speak it in a sensitive way by which people become attracted towards Krishna.

Thank you very much. Are there any questions or comments? Yes. We answered this question yesterday.

Were you there? Yes, but still I am not able to understand. Okay. So why did Mahadev empower Ashwathama when his motive was not good? The empowerment is based on our, whatever we desire and our karma.

So what it means is that somebody can be a very good singer and that person is a good singer, they can sing about Krishna and they can attract people to Krishna. Somebody can be a very good singer and they can sing about sensuality and they can drag people down. Now in both cases, the ability of singing is a gift of God.

But where that ability is being used, that is up to that person. So just as somebody might be having a very great gift that may come at birth in terms of a sweet voice, but they will use it according to their level of consciousness, their motives and their choices. So now that sweet voice is actually a gift, you could say it's an empowerment.

But people may use it, people may abuse it. So just as this depends, whether one gets empowerment or not, that depends on one's karma. And it's up to, karma here means what one has done in past life.

But how one uses that empowerment, that will vary according to person to person. So Hitler, he was a great speaker actually. Phenomenal power to speak.

And when he would speak, he could galvanise thousands and thousands of people. So he had that power, speaking power, but he used it in a wrong way to poison people's minds. And he misled people with the Nazi ideology.

Just as some people may have some ability by birth, some people may develop an ability by painstaking effort. Hitler would spend hours, at that time there was no television, so it would be radio. So his speech would be broadcast on radio, before that he would spend hours rehearsing his speeches.

So that he would have maximum impact on those nationally broadcast speeches. So somebody may get power by that, and again that power may be used wrongly. So Ashwatthama, by his own karma, he was meant to get that power.

But he could have used that power for a right purpose, he could have used that power for a wrong purpose. So, In the fifth chapter, Krishna says that, I do not accept the good results of anyone, nor do I accept the bad results of anyone. It is, they act good and bad ways because of being deluded by ignorance.

So Krishna gives Gyan by which we can counter that Gyan, but it is up to us to take the Gyan. So we shouldn't think that Mahadev caused the death of the Kauravas. It's just that, it is Ashwatthama by his karma had to get that empowerment.

And he used that empowerment wrongly, at that time. So, there is, it's like sometimes there may be a person in the army and they have a machine gun. And the person is given a machine gun to protect the country.

And they have been given the machine gun, why? Because in the past they have acted responsibly. They used the weapons properly, so that's why they may be given a very advanced machine gun. But then they may use the machine gun to kill civilians.

So when they are used to kill civilians, at that time, if the commander of that particular soldier had given a machine gun, that commander is not to be blamed at that time. Because that person had, till then he had earned that. And then they misused it.

So like that, Ashwatthama was to be given empowerment by karma, but he chose to act not only strongly but viciously with that empowerment. Any other questions? Yes, madam. Was Ashwatthama cursed to live for thousands of years alone? Yes.

That is described in the Mahabharata. See, the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, Mahabharata and the Bhagavatam, they describe incidents not necessarily from the same time duration. The Lord's pastimes keep happening and what happens in this day of Brahma has also happened in another day of Brahma.

So the pastime that is described in the Bhagavatam and the pastime described in the Mahabharata are different. So in the Mahabharata version of the pastime, it is described that Ashwatthama was cursed and he was not exact, not that he got leprosy, but he was told that he would have to live alone because he had committed such a terrible crime of killing so many people. So he would be deprived of the association of people.

And that's how he would have to live for a long, long time. But because it was the curse coming from Krishna, he said after this curse is countered, after this curse period is exhausted, then he will be elevated to a high position. So that is the Mahabharata version of the story.

Any other questions? So Arjuna was fighting Karna and at that time Karna was also unarmed. So how can Arjuna's killing Karna be justified? Yes, at that time there is a different principle involved. At that time actually Karna, when his chariot starts sinking and gets stuck in the ground, Karna tells Arjuna, Arjuna don't entertain, thoughts entertain backwards.

So remember the principles of Dharma and wait till I am ready to fight. So Arjuna lowers his bow. At that time Krishna speaks to Karna.

Oh Karna, it is fortunate indeed that you remember the principles of Dharma today. He says, was it the principles of Dharma by which you suggested that Draupadi be disrobed? Was it Dharma by which you called Draupadi a prostitute? Was it Dharma by which you tried to have the five Pandavas and their widowed mother burned alive? Was it Dharma by which you along with five other Maharathas killed the sixteen-year-old Abhimanyu? Like that Krishna gave a whole list of all the wrongs that Abhimanyu had done, that Karna had done. And then he said, if it was Dharma at that time, Arjuna will use the same Dharma to kill you today.

So the point here is that there is, at the start of the war, there was a decision that the codes of law, codes of Kshatriya warfare were told. And Dhristadyumna and Bhishma, they were both the two commanders. So at that time Duryodhana came and he said, oh Dhristadyumna, remember the codes of Kshatriya conduct and fight accordingly.

Fight according to the codes of Kshatriya conduct. So Dhristadyumna, he says, now the Pandavas have acted viciously so many times. Why are they talking about the codes of Dharma? So he said that we will not be the first to violate the codes of Dharma.

But if you violate the codes of Dharma, we will not hold ourselves back. And we don't have time to go through the full situation here of when all the codes of Dharma were violated. But this specific code of a warrior on the ground of a chariot, this the Pandavas violated three times.

And Karna himself was involved in the violations also. On the 13th day, when Abhimanyu was fighting valiantly, at that time Abhimanyu's chariot was destroyed. Actually six Maharathas attacked.

One of them attacked Abhimanyu's chariot, another attacked Abhimanyu's horses, another attacked Abhimanyu's shield, another attacked Abhimanyu's bow and arrow. And Abhimanyu was chariotless, weaponless. And still the warriors kept attacking him.

And at that time Karna was also one of the warriors who attacked him there. On the 14th day, when Arjuna decided to take revenge, Arjuna penetrated deep into the Kaurava ranks. So fierce was the attack that Arjuna was half way through and his horses got exhausted.

And Krishna told Arjuna that your horses are exhausted, they need rest, they need water, they need food, they cannot move forwards. So at that time Arjuna got off his chariot. And he shot a celestial weapon and right in the middle of the war field, by a celestial weapon, he created a lake.

And he created a green grass. And Krishna said, very good. Krishna was pleased with Arjuna.

And then he immediately took the chariot and the horses there for feeding them. And now at this time, Arjuna was chariotless. And the Kauravas did not stop at that time.

They just kept charging. They just kept charging towards him. And Arjuna single-handedly just was whirling around like a dervish.

He was going round and round and round. Whichever way anyone came, they just met a wall of arrows. And although literally hundreds of Kaurava soldiers and warriors attacked Arjuna, Arjuna held all of them back.

At that time Arjuna did not say, I am off the chariot, you are on chariot, why are you attacking me? No, Arjuna did not do that. On the 17th day itself, on the very day when Karna was killed, on that day itself, at one particular point, Arjuna quite forcefully attacked and wounded Karna. So Karna was fighting for some time to heal from his wounds or at least to get some control over his wounds.

So at that time he took a Nagastra. And in the Nagastra he decided to shoot Arjuna. Now Shalya told him, Shalya told him that actually shoot at the chest.

Because if you shoot at the chest, even if you go a little off target, below is the stomach. There also it will be fatal. If you go a little up, there is the neck.

There also it will be fatal. But Karna wanted a classic victory. You know sometimes a batsman, just one or two runs needed to win the match.

You just play the ball somewhere and score two runs. But the batsman tries to hit a sixer and gets out. And you lose the match.

For that there is some spectacular thing in hitting a sixer and winning the match. But in that process, if one takes too much of a risk, then one may lose the match. So like that, Karna wanted a spectacular success.

He wanted that not only should I kill Arjuna, but Arjuna's head should fly off his body and everybody should see how I chop off the head of Arjuna. So he decided to shoot Arjuna's head. And he shot at Arjuna's head.

At that time, Krishna saw that this Nagashtra is coming. Now Arjuna, he knew most of the weapons that were there. So Arjuna had a celestial armour and Arjuna used three strategies.

Or three ways he would counter the weapons that would come. One is, sometimes the arrow was very forceful. He would send his arrow and he would let it interrupt that arrow.

Sometimes he would just let the arrow hit his armour and his armour itself was very strong. It would not have hurt him. And third case, he would just dodge the arrow.

He would just move aside and the arrow would be coming. In this case, Arjuna did not recognise what this weapon is. So he thought, let the arrow come in.

He was just focussing on attacking Karna. But Krishna saw, this is actually the Nagashtra. And in that Nagashtra also, there was a Naga prince Ashwasen who had entered his powers into it.

So, no, this is the Nagashtra at that time. So, when that happened, that arrow just came piercing towards Arjuna. And Krishna seeing that arrow coming, he just pressed his feet forcefully down on the chariot.

And he pressed his feet so forcefully, the chariot sank into the war field. And that arrow which was meant to knock off Arjuna's head, it knocked off his crown. And Arjuna was saved.

But now in the meanwhile, Arjuna's chariot was in the ground. And Arjuna was immobilised. Krishna got on the chariot and Krishna pulled out the chariot.

But during that time, Karna kept attacking Arjuna. Karna did not stop. And Arjuna did not ask Karna to stop.

So, by that time in the war, both sides, the Paganda Kauravas had started violating the laws of morality, laws of Dharma. And that's what they were getting back in return. So, no quarters were expected and no quarters were given.

So, Karna had to have been more practical. Yes, his chariot had sunk into the ground. He couldn't have just got off the chariot.

He could have kept fighting for an immobile chariot also. He could have ordered another chariot to come. He could not expect in the middle of a war to expect Arjuna to just stop over there.

Especially when he himself had not stopped earlier. So, Krishna could have had Arjuna to win the war in righteous ways entirely. But Krishna wanted to demonstrate a principle over there.

Shatho Shatyam. With the cunning, sometimes we have to be cunning. You know, if other person is cunning and we are strict to a legalistic definition of morality, then we may be exploited.

So, with the cunning, be cunning. Earlier, Arjuna had defeated Karna in several occasions. Especially the Virat Yudha, Arjuna defeated the whole Kaurava army, including Karna.

So, Arjuna had the capability to defeat Karna in a straight fight also. But Krishna did that to teach this lesson that Shatho Shatyam. With the cunning, one can be cunning.

And in the overall context, it was not the Pandavas who were immoral. It was the Kauravas who had started immorality, even in that war itself. And the Pandavas paid them back in their coin.

Any other questions? Actually, Swamiji, one thing I fail to understand, I mean, I haven't understood very well. Pandavas did not want war. They wanted peace.

They were not willing to pick up the army. They wanted to give away the kingdoms also, just for the sake of peace. But Krishna said that, no, you have to fight for a right or something like that.

What was the reason that compared Pandavas to fight with Krishna? The Pandavas did not want to fight, but yet Krishna told them to fight. So, why exactly did they fight the war? See, there are two different points here. One, there is a principle of tolerance.

And there is a principle of, along with tolerance, there is forgiveness. But along with that, there is also a counterbalancing principle of justice. So, in the case of the Pandavas, they tolerated any number of atrocities.

Bhima was poisoned, they tolerated that. They attempted to burn Dalai, they tolerated that. They were given the barren part of the kingdom, they tolerated that.

But when Thirupathi was dishonoured, at that time, a limit was crossed. And that was something which they could not tolerate. And yet, even after that, after the period of exile, they were ready to settle for peace.

And then, to the extent that they said that we will settle for even five kingdoms. But Duryodhana was not ready to listen even to that. So, this is, from the point of view of history, the Pandavas had tolerated again and again and had tried to accommodate and Duryodhana was absolutely not ready to accommodate.

See, Krishna's going as Shanti Doodh is an extraordinary thing. Suppose, say there is a war between India and Pakistan. And at that, there is a border shooting going on.

And at that time, maybe the secretaries of defence or something like that, they will meet and they will try to resolve by some diplomatic means. But suppose at that time, when there is a war, the Prime Minister of India goes to Pakistan for peace. It's a very serious thing.

So, Krishna himself going for peace, other than sending us a messenger, that shows how earnest it is. The Prime Minister himself going to another country for a peace negotiation or the peace emissary. That indicates that they are really serious about peace.

And for that to be rejected, imagine say, the Indian Prime Minister goes to Pakistan on a message of peace and the Pakistani government tries to arrest the Prime Minister. Outrageous! That's what Duryodhana tried to do when he tried to have Krishna arrested. So, from the point of view of justice itself, the Kauravas had time and time been brutally unfair.

But the second part of this is that from the point of view of the people in general. Yatha Raja, Yatha Praja. So, if there is a king who has no sense of shame in disrobing a honourable woman in public, when such a person is going to rule, what will happen to him? Even during the 12-13 years that Duryodhana was ruling, at that time, he did not do any abusive activities.

Because he wanted to win over the people. Because he knew the Pandavas are still a threat. And that's why he wanted to win over the people by giving gifts and things like that.

But eventually, if the Pandavas were not in the picture, if the Pandavas abdicated their claim entirely, and the Pandavas were no longer a threat, then Duryodhana's atrocious side would have come out undone and would have been disastrous. So, it was not only to gain their own rights, but it was also to provide a righteous kingdom or righteous rule for their citizens. And the Pandavas fought the war.

And they tried to settle as much as possible by peaceful means. Now, Krishna, was he, some people show that Krishna, or they try to say that Krishna was the instigator of the war. But it is not that Krishna was the instigator.

Krishna tried his best to avoid the war. He went as a peace negotiator and he actually gave such a persuasive presentation in the peace negotiation that there was dissension in the Kaurava ranks. At one particular time, when Krishna spoke about why he should have peace, Dushasan got up.

And he said, Duryodhana, if you don't give the Pandavas back their kingdom, I will personally have you tied and I will have you as a prisoner handed over to the Pandavas. Duryodhana was furious. He was mortified, he was furious.

He just walked out in anger. And then the remaining 98 Kauravas, they didn't know what to do. Because Duryodhana and Dushasan were the eldest.

There was never before had there been dissension between the two. They looked at each other and then they walked away. They walked out with Duryodhana.

And Dushasan was left all alone. Dushasan also walked away. And when he came out, Duryodhana was an excellent emotional manipulator of people.

So when Dushasan was feeling very embarrassed, very mortified, you know, I spoke against Duryodhana like this. What will Duryodhana say now? How will I show my face? But as soon as Dushasan entered, Duryodhana very cordially said, Oh Dushasan, welcome. He said, I have always been warning everyone that Krishna is a very cunning person.

I said, today Krishna's cunningness deceived you also. Dushasan felt relieved, you know. Rather than blaming me, he is blaming Krishna.

So the point is that Krishna, he actually requested for peace so persuasively that even Dushasan was temporarily convinced. So Krishna cannot be caused in any way as the instigator of the war. Not even the Pandavas can be caused as the instigator of the war.

It is the Kauravas who caused the war. By their utter intransigence, by their utter unwillingness to accept peace on any compromising terms at all. Okay, thank you.

Any other questions? Anything else? Okay, I will come back to you. Okay, sometimes we may be disappointed or let down by our spiritual leaders and we understand that Krishna loves us but then those who represent Krishna, if they don't act in very loving ways, they hurt us somehow. So how do we reconcile that? Actually, Krishna's love comes to us through many sources.

So it is not that throughout our spiritual journey, Krishna's love will always come through the same, not sources, channels. Krishna's love will come only through the same channels all the time. In the initial days of our spiritual life, it may be that some devotees inspire us a lot.

But as we grow, as we understand our own nature, as we come to know more about those devotees, we may feel not that much inspired by them. But at that time, Krishna will send us inspiration through some other devotees. So we, from wherever Krishna inspires us, we take their inspiration and move onwards towards Krishna.

It's like there are children, when they are very small, for them their mother and father are like God for them. But as they come into, they grow into teenage, there is adolescence rebellion. And in small childhood, my parents, everything that they say is right.

And when they come into adolescence, if my parents say it, it must be wrong. That becomes sometimes the attitude. And now, if they keep growing through their adolescence, then they mature, then they realise that my parents have done so much good for me.

They are not perfect. I am also not perfect. But with all their limitations, with their defects, still they love me and they have done so much good for me.

So similarly, in our relationship with devotees also, initially when we come, we may start thinking that everybody who has dhoti, kurta, saree, they are all pure devotees. We offer obeisances to everyone and we offer great respects to everyone. That is initial thing.

But as we keep growing, we start realising that different devotees are of different natures. There are different levels of advancement. They come from different backgrounds.

Their ways of dealing with each other are different. And the same devotees who inspired us earlier may not inspire us later. Sometimes after a few years in bhakti, we may go into the stage of adolescent rebellion in bhakti.

Where the same devotees who inspired us, we start rebelling against them and rebelling very forcefully. But if we see them as the sole representatives of Krishna, then we will extrapolate from whatever hurt we have against them, whatever grief we have against them towards Krishna. And we will become alienated from Krishna also.

But if we see that it is one Krishna who is manifesting through many ways for me. Through this devotee, through this devotee, through this devotee. So you will always find in our spiritual life, there will be some like-minded devotees with whom we can connect, with whom we can relate.

And they can be different in different stages in our spiritual life. So from wherever we get inspiration, we move onwards. We take that inspiration, we move onwards in our journey towards Krishna.

And whoever has helped us in our bhakti, we should be grateful to them. Even if at present they are behaving in a particular way which we can't digest, which we can't agree with. Then we can keep a little distance from them.

For what they did in the past for us, we respect them, we are grateful to them for that. But we may not take guidance from them right now. We may not get inspiration from them right now.

So if we have, there can be two kinds of fragmentation. We see devotees separate from Krishna. And devotees are the only source of inspiration for us.

If those devotees stop being inspiring, then we just give up bhakti entirely. The other is, we see Krishna separate from devotees. That means we say that, you know, Krishna is good but devotees are bad.

So I love Krishna but I won't associate with devotees. Any devotee at all. That is also not proper.

So Krishna is connected with devotees but Krishna is connected with many devotees. And we need association of devotees always. But we need also like-minded association.

So finding like-minded association is our responsibility. We shouldn't, the bad experience that we have with some devotees, we shouldn't extrapolate that and label all devotees as bad. Certainly we should not label Krishna as bad.

Rather, recognise that Krishna will send his love through us, his wisdom to us, through some channel or the other and we should look for that devotee association. And by that inspiration we can move onwards in our bhakti. Does it answer your question? Thank God.

Yes. When we say a dishonour is worse than death, isn't that more like a person's pride is being hurt? Okay. So when we say dishonour is worse than death, isn't that in the platform of the ego or the pride? Yes, it is.

At the same time, not all pride is bad. There is, I'll use three terms and I'll differentiate between them. There is arrogance, there is pride and there is honour.

So, arrogance is definitely bad. But pride is not necessarily bad. Sometimes there is, you can have a hotel by the name of Hotel Executive Pride or Hotel Pride.

There is a car by the name Pride. So now, the idea is that, or for example, if there is a World Cup going on and the team is knocked out of the World Cup and the last match is remaining. They are not going to go ahead in the World Cup now.

They are already knocked out. But still they try to play and that time the captains may say that we are playing for pride. Playing for pride means that, yes, we are lost, but we don't want to be completely whitewashed.

We have some sense of honour. At least one match we won, something like that. So pride itself is not always bad.

So there can be situations when, so now that positive connotation of pride is what we use in the sense of honour. Like Prabhupada in one letter he says that a devotee has stopped chanting Hare Krishna, a devotee has stopped following the regulatory principles. Initiated devotee.

So Prabhupada wrote to him and said that you have taken a vow in front of the deities, in front of the devotees, in front of the spiritual master, in front of the sacred fire. You have given your word. Don't you have a sense of honour? How can you give up your word like this? So now here Prabhupada is talking about a sense of honour in a positive sense.

So if a sense of honour can inspire a person to act honourably, then that sense of honour is good. So the sense of honour is often what inspires people to act honourably. In many situations.

So now dishonour is worse than death. What does it mean? It means two things. One is if a person feels that if I do this I will be dishonoured and that is very painful and because of that the person does not act dishonourably, then that is also good.

A Kshatriya is meant to give charity. Now often a Kshatriya may also feel that I want to keep all my wealth with me. But the Kshatriya thinks that if I don't give this charity then my reputation will be spoiled and people will think that I am stingy, I am not a charitable person.

And because of that they give charity. The best thing is to do the right thing with the right motive. But if you can't do the right thing with the right motive, at least do the right thing with the not so right motive also.

Just like if somebody told you that you have to chant Hare Krishna, you can chant Hare Krishna only when you are chanting purely. You will never chant Hare Krishna. Right now our motive is impure but still chant Hare Krishna.

By doing that gradually the right motive will come. So like that it is best if one gives charity for the sake of pleasing Krishna, for the sake of benefiting others in the service of Krishna. But if that is not the case, if I give charity for the sake of reputation, at least the charity is being given.

So a sense of honour, if it can inspire people to do honourable things, that is good. And in Kshatriya culture, Kshatriyas are people who are meant to have influence in society. They are meant to have influence in the world.

The Brahmanas live very simply. Brahmanas, they live in ideas, they live in thoughts, they live in wisdom. And they share wisdom with those who appreciate it.

But Kshatriyas are meant to live in the world and they are meant to command the respect of the world. And for that purpose their honour is important. So for the Kshatriyas, they also have an innate sense of honour and that sense of honour is doted so that they act righteously instead of unrighteously.

So Narada Muni, when Dhruva Maharaj leaves his father's kingdom and comes to the forest, Narada Muni meets him there and Narada Muni tells him there, you know, you are just a child. Actually before that, Narada Muni hears this news, he appreciates and he says, He says, how great is the effulgence of the Kshatriyas that they cannot tolerate dishonour. Now we may say, we have to tolerate dishonour.

That's the principle. Narada Muni is appreciating how great are the Kshatriyas that they cannot tolerate dishonour. The point here is that because of their inability to tolerate dishonour, they will avoid acting dishonourably and they will act honourably, which is positive.

So therefore, if a person's ego is hurt and they feel that that is worse than death and that pain makes them act in an honourable way, that is favourable. But in some situations, it is possible. So Krishna is using whatever arguments are possible to get Arjuna to act in the right way.

And that's why he tells Arjuna also that, In 2.34 it says, for those who have been honoured, dishonour is worse than death. And Arjuna, if you go away from this battlefield, you will be dishonoured as a coward. Therefore, stay on the battlefield and do your duty.

So the sense of honour, if it is used to inspire people to act honourably, that is positive. And it is in that spirit that dishonour is worse than death means, better you die but don't act dishonourably, don't act like a coward. Like Shakespeare said that, a coward dies a thousand deaths before his death.

So the idea is, the coward is humiliated so many times because of the coward. So don't do like that. The sense of honour can be used to inspire people to act honourably, that's wonderful.

Prabhupada, when he would be in India and he would be preaching to Indians, especially he would say that, you know, Bhagavad Gita is the message from India. And to preach Bhagavad Gita in India, I have to get people from America. He says, what are you doing? This is your message.

You should be preaching it all over the world. Prabhupada even says, you are regretting that India lost Pakistan. At that time, still 2.34 years ago, Pakistan had been partitioned.

He says, if you preach Bhagavad Gita, what to speak of Pakistan? The whole world will become Hindustan. So what is Prabhupada doing? Prabhupada at other times will tell you, you are not the body, you are not an Indian also. But here, if their sense of Indianness, their sense of honour and pride at being Indian can inspire them to preach Bhagavad Gita, Prabhupada uses that.

And just a few days later, in another lecture, Prabhupada is speaking to his American disciples and he has asked them to make a big Pandal programme. And they are saying, we don't have any money, we don't have any resources, how will we do a Pandal programme? And Prabhupada tells them, in India, you Americans are known as people who are doing spectacular things. So, now Indians are watching you.

He says, if you don't do something wonderful, what is the use of you being Americans? So, what is Prabhupada doing here in this case? Their pride at being Americans, he is using that to engage them in Bhakti. So, if our sense of honour can inspire us to act honourably, then that's good. Because that will inspire us to act honourably.

So, we will stop here. If you have any more questions, tomorrow evening we have question and answer session. Monday evening we have question and answer session.

You can submit the questions here and we can discuss at that time. Thank you very much. Prabhupada ki Jai.

Jai. Jai. Jai.