Emotionally healthy spirituality in the renounced order

[Brahmachari class at Govardhan Eco-village, India] Video:

Hare Krishna. I'll speak today on the topic of Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. I'll speak this in three main parts.

And I'll have some questions after each part if you'd like to have any. So first I'll speak about two different understandings of how spiritual relates with the physical and the mental. The body, mind and the soul, how the three can be dealt with separately as well as in an integral way.

In second part I'll talk about how the mind has its own needs and in scripture how there are examples of these having been dealt with. And lastly I'll talk about how this especially applies in the renounced order and what specific issues we may need to deal with. So the first point about the body, mind and soul.

So broadly speaking in the in the broad Vedic tradition the material and the spiritual are seen in two different ways. If you see the Bhagavad Gita begins with a radical differentiation between matter and spirit. It says that the whole second chapter is about how we are different from the body.

At the same time if we move further and further into the Gita, the Gita later talks about how the material is the means to the spiritual. That means Krishna says that is the part of this 18.46 which is quoted often that through your work, worship. Now this some people simplistically translate this as work is worship.

Now that is not karmahi puja is not the point over there. If work were worship then the donkey would be the greatest worshipper. So that's not the point of the Gita.

But it's interesting what comes before this when Krishna says through your work, worship. But before that what Krishna is saying is by from whom the whole creation has come, whole existence has come. By whom all of existence is pervaded.

So basically Krishna is saying don't reject the material simply as mundane. The material is also pervaded with the Divine. It has come from the Divine, it has been pervaded by the Divine.

And thus the material can also be used to approach the Divine, to worship the Divine. So the Bhakti tradition explains that the world is a resource to reach the source. The world is a resource to reach the source.

And in this understanding we see that first I talk about differentiation. Matter and spirit are different. Then there is integration.

That matter and spirit both come from the Supreme Lord. And thus the soul is here, the body is here. So first I differentiate.

The body and the soul are two different things. But then later we understand that the body is the means by which the soul can reach God. The body and the soul both come from God.

Ultimately matter and spirit come from God. And for the soul to reach the Divine, reach Krishna, the body is a vital tool. In the Bhagavatam twice there is this reference that if the body doesn't function then the soul can't be reached.

Then the Supreme cannot be reached. The body is like a like a tree and Mukti or liberation or supreme perfection is like the fruit of the tree. Does anyone remember where this reference comes? Shukracharya, that's one place.

So Shukracharya is telling Bali Maharaj that you should not give charity to Vaman because if you give charity you lose everything and you will not be able to maintain your body. Comes one more place in the Bhagavatam. Not exactly there.

It actually comes not exactly the same reference but similar reference comes in the section of Vasudeva and Deva. Vasudeva and Devaki and Kamsa. But Vasudeva adopts emergency process measures to protect Devaki.

There also the idea is that So at one level we want to transcend bodily consciousness. But at the same time it's interesting that to transcend bodily consciousness body is the tool. So we can't transcend bodily consciousness without using the body.

You purify all of this with the body. So now with this background if you see where does the mind fit in? There's the body and there's the soul. At one level is where does the mind fit in? Yeah, it interfaces the two.

So we call the mind as subtle matter. So emotionally healthy spirituality is the topic which I was talking about. What I mean by that is just as we understand that the body at one level has to be transcended but the tool for transcending the body is the body.

Similarly if we consider the mind is a part of the body. The mind links the soul with the body. So at one level we understand that the mind is the enemy and we need to distance ourselves from the mind and we need to not listen to the mind.

At the same time the mind is also a tool for us and it's an indispensable tool. If the mind is not functioning properly we can't study philosophy, we can't do our service properly, we can't relate with each other properly. The mind is also a vital tool.

And so if you want to talk about say physically healthy spirituality what that would mean is that if something if we are practising spirituality in a way that that spoils the health of the body then we will not be able to practise for long. Say some people are very vulnerable to cold. Then if they are given a service which makes them go out in the cold and they tell you you are not the body.

Well, I am not the body but the body is a tool and the body will follow material laws. So then that person's spiritual practise will not be physically healthy and then they will fall sick and they will not be able to continue their service for long. So just as the body, physical body has to be acknowledged its limitations, its particular situation and spiritual life has to be practised accordingly.

The same applies to the mind also. Each mind is different. And while broadly speaking you could say that the mind is our enemy and the mind troubles us but still the mind is the tool that we need for functioning in the world.

So if certain things are not emotionally healthy for us So what do I mean by not emotionally healthy? Say, if somebody can't tolerate cold and say they wake up in the morning to do sadhana and they are trembling and shivering and then somebody tells them don't feel cold. What do you mean don't feel cold? That's the way my body is. I feel cold.

Now I can decide that despite the cold I may go and do my service or whatever but feeling cold is not a choice for that person. They will feel cold. And that has to be acknowledged.

So similarly, each mind also has its natural emotions. Some people are very sensitive. Little bit negative thing is spoken about and they just feel very badly hurt.

Some people, each mind has its own nature and we tell person why are you so sensitive? At one level it's true we should not be too sensitive but at that point if that is the way the mind functions that is the way it will function. We can't immediately change that. So when just as if we practise spirituality in a way that stretches our body too much then it becomes physically unhealthy and becomes physically unsustainable.

Similarly, if we practise spirituality in a way that stretches our emotions too much then that practise may become emotionally unhealthy. And when this practise of spirituality is emotionally unhealthy at that time we start getting flooded with negative emotions. So with respect to the body when the body stretches too much it pains.

It breaks down. So when it breaks down it can't function. The mind is something which in a sense never stops functioning.

The mind functions all the time but when the mind is stretched too much then it starts becoming it starts flooding us with too much negativity. A simple example you see that if we have too many things to do if we are overworked then at that time if anybody with whom we are working does something even a small wrong thing we may get too agitated by that. We may yell at that person or even we don't yell at that person we just feel too disturbed.

So there what has happened it is not so much that what particular mistake that person has done it is just that we are already stretched and that stretching may not be so much physical. We are physically not exhausted but mentally we feel burdened. So the mind also has its capacity.

Now capacity can be in terms of working capacity can be in terms of say relating with difficult people you know and if say we are working with some people and that person doesn't understand us we work with somebody else that person doesn't understand us 2, 3, 4, 5 we need somebody with whom we can understand we can connect. So understanding is for the heart, for the inner self what oxygen is for the body. If you feel then we will start feeling choked.

So basically when the mind starts becoming too negative that is an indication that that there is something which is emotionally unhealthy. Now some people's mind naturally is negative some people's mind is naturally positive. Some people are optimistic some people are pessimistic.

Sometimes if you take a glass of water and you ask do you see this half empty or half full? When somebody asks this question you may feel like seeing whether there is enough water to throw on their face. Why? Because different people they have their attitude like some people are by nature more positive some people are by nature more negative and it's not necessarily a bad thing because people who are more positive they will be more creative they will be more adventurous they will be more enterprising and people who are more negative they will be more cautious they will be more more carefully planning things evaluating dangers and both dispositions if negative disposition becomes the only disposition then it's a problem. If positive disposition becomes the only disposition that is also a problem.

Because if you are too optimistic we will not consider the risks at all and then we will get ourselves in trouble. If you are too pessimistic we will consider only the risks and we will not do anything which is also a problem. So there is a normal disposition that everyone has but beyond that normal disposition whenever we become too stretched emotionally then the practise of spirituality starts becoming unhealthy and that unhealthy practise has effects and the effect is that we become flooded with negativity that negativity we feel that oh nobody cares for me people are just using me this person is like this that person is like that that person is like that and when these sort of negative emotions start filling our mind completely then even if we try to practise bhakti even if we try to chant Hare Krishna we can't focus on Krishna.

So the emotionally unhealthy spirituality eventually becomes spiritually also unhealthy. This is the first point. Any comments or questions about this till now? Yes.

We just don't have to fight with the mind but we have to get the mind to fight for us at some point of time. That's true. So that point I like very much because finally we need to use that tool to use the body to transcend the body as a tool.

So my first question is how is it that there is some dichotomy like sometimes and then this to resolve this is it to resolve this we identify the bad part of the mind as mind and the good part as like the soul's decision or something like that and the true feelings or true emotions and the negative part is to let it go. Like, you know, Tantra calls badaya manush sometimes we say Krishna manu So usually the you know, you don't trust mind So the negative aspect of mind is treated as mind and the positive aspect is usually, I mean, in a sense that's, we can say that that's our true emotions Okay, yeah, good question Is it related to this first one? Let's do this first one Okay, let's finish this first one So when you say that the mind also has to be actually used to fight for Krishna we can't just keep fighting the mind So how do we differentiate between the mind this is the good part and this is the bad part of the mind Yes, but the differentiation may not be that precise See, broadly speaking, our emotions can come from three sources our emotion can come from our situation our emotion can come from our disposition and our emotion can come from a combination of the situation and the disposition that means say, situation means say it might be extremely cold and I feel like trembling, I just feel like I can't work or I might be extremely tired and therefore, if somebody tells me to do this service I just can't do it physically so at that time I feel tired the tiredness is an emotion the emotion can come from the situation sometimes the emotion can come from my disposition so some people might just be very lazy and even if they are even with laziness the mind is such that generally the mind doesn't let us think bad about ourselves even if we go in a jail and talk with criminals, murderers they will all have their excuses and they don't think they are excuses, they think they are reasons excuses means actually you shouldn't have done this but you did it and now you are justifying it whereas reason means this is what made me do it so this is what I responded, so anyway so often what others may call as excuse, for them it may appear like a reason so what happens, some people are lazy and at that time they may actually feel tired in the sense that the body is not tired but they feel tired and they say I won't do this so it may be disposition but in between is the combination of the two so now it's not so easy to quickly identify whether a particular emotion is coming from the situation, from the physical reality, is it coming only from the mind or is it coming from a combination of both so if we consider pain to take a more graphic example of this if my hand is fractured and if I feel pain and now that pain is an emotion but that pain is a pointer to a physical situation that needs to be corrected but say if I had a fracture and I have been treated for the fracture and now I have to start exercising my hand, I kept it in the cast no movement, now I have to start moving it, now there also when I start moving my hand first time, I feel pain now that pain is something which I have to acknowledge but first time when I feel pain when the fracture is there, I should stop moving the hand but the second time when I feel pain I acknowledge the pain is there but still I have to move my hand I have to start exercising so that means sometimes some pain is an indicator that I should not do this activity and sometimes some pain may be there and still I need to do that activity so we have to see that or if you consider workout, somebody is trying to lift weights, so there is somebody is lifting 10 kg weights, that is their capacity they try to lift 25 kg they will get crushed by it but even if they try to lift 10 kg or 11 kg they can do it but they will feel some pain so we could say there is a spectrum where 1 kg lifting you feel no pain but there is no improvement of strength of body by that 25 kg you feel pain and that indicates that you should not do it, 11 kg feel pain but I should still lift the weight so basically if we understand our situation and our disposition objectively and that requires intelligence so usually when we are in sattva guna, when we feel a particular emotion, it is very difficult to process whether that emotion is coming at the heat of the moment to process whether it is coming from the body or it is coming from the just the mind alone so that time we might just do what is appropriate or what we feel strongly to do whatever but later on we can look back and observe ok in this situation when I feel tired, it really indicates that I cannot continue but in this situation I feel tired but I can't push up, this is just mental, this is not physical so that differentiation we have to know so when we can't listen to the mind all the time but at the same time we can't neglect the mind also all the time so what does it mean neglect the mind a kshatriya naturally feels like doing fighting, doing managerial activities leading, a kshatriya can't be told to do the work of a vaisya or a brahmin now they will feel very choked, they will feel very incompatible they will feel frustrated and that feeling is also coming from the mind but that feeling can't be suppressed so when we feel dissatisfied sometimes dissatisfaction can be just occasional thing that keeps coming and going in general there are so many things we feel dissatisfied about, this is not working right, that is not working right but if there is a continuous dissatisfaction that is there then we may have to think ok where is it coming from and what do I need to do about it does this address your question yes you also mentioned the working nature of the mind that something very awkward very pushing or tiring is kind of mind is loaded certain kind of tensions then the body if it is loaded some extra things it will just crash stop functioning but the mind doesn't stop functioning and it will create even more negativity so my question was what is this system what purpose does it solve negative things lead to what is the system so when the mind is when the mind is stretched then why does the mind overstretch then why does it produce more negative emotions what purpose this is generally the nature of the world is that pain is a pointer towards something wrong that is the broad way it is so whether it is physical or it is mental it is the same thing when I stretch my body too much I start feeling tired, I start feeling pain in the body so pain is a pointer that something is not the way it normally is and then we have to decide what is the corrective action for that so if you are doing a workout this much pain I can tolerate, I can move on but this much pain it is too much, I can't tolerate this, I better stop the workout so same way with respect to the mind when the mind starts becoming negative that simply is an indicator that there is something wrong and then sometimes we tolerate it and persevere sometimes we may decide no this can't be I can't live with this, I have to make some changes over here so that again requires us to decide that, so it is basically a pointer that something is wrong something needs attention now what that attention is attention is ok I am going to persevere or I am going to change course that is something which we have to decide with intelligence any other questions or should we move on yes please you mentioned pain mental but in different places there are different person who can tolerate more pain from where exactly this problem is for us how, why there are some cases we need to approach this is first second is that generally this whole this whole is sometimes we feel except who is feeling pain this pain is usually or it is ok so different people have different tolerance capacities with respect to physical mental pain, where does this variable tolerance capacity come from broadly we could say it comes from past karma as well as it comes from present upbringing that means that depending on the kind of body that we may have some bodies can tolerate a lot of pain like say we know the story of Karna that when he was a student of Parshuram, an insect came and bit him while Parshuram was sleeping on his lap and he tolerated that and that's how Parshuram concluded, Parshuram appreciated the fact that he had he had such a service attitude Parshuram pointed out that all of you know the story isn't it so Parshuram so the point is that he recognised from that that you cannot be a Brahmana a Brahmana cannot tolerate that much physical pain in terms of that is the Brahmana can do austerity in terms of fasting but a painful stimuli like being bitten by an insect that is something this much a Brahmana can't do this is a Kshatriya, Kshatriya can even when the enemy's arrows pierce the body and there is a lot of pain, Kshatriya will put aside the pain and still keep fighting that's what is required for their job so by the kind of past karma that we have done just as we get bodies with different tolerance capacities similarly we may also have minds with different tolerance capacities so sometimes some people say if somebody speaks something harshly to them everybody will feel bad but sometimes some people just sink into depression because of one negative feedback and others they just take it ok, accept it think it about it and move on process it and move on with life so we have to function with the body and the mind that we have we can't immediately change either the body or the mind so we understand that by past karma this is what I have got, this is what they have got and let's see how each of us can function the best it can also be affected by our upbringing our association say some people might be very excitable small small things they get very excited, very agitated by it but if they associate with somebody who is always very calm who is very composed and that person may also become a little more calm, little more composed they may not exactly become like them, the other person who is by nature very unflappable but still by association say if our upbringing was such that in English there is a word called hyperventilate hyperventilate is actually like we have ventilation air so when we get too excited then we breathe too fast so hyperventilate is a word which is used to explain that when we get excited, agitated we breathe fast, so hyperventilate means to overreact to small situations so some people have a tendency to hyperventilate so say if somebody was brought up in an environment where the parents or elders used to hyperventilate then that person may also do that so it depends the past karma as well as the upbringing and what was the second question? ok ok that is a that is an eternal question so who experiences pain? the soul is Satchitananda well first thing is that the soul is Satchitananda but the soul's consciousness is currently caught in matter Baldev Vidyabhushan in his Govinda Bhashya commented in the Vedanta Sutra he says that there are two kinds of statements in the Upanishads, one is that soul never changes and other is soul keeps changing so he reconciles the two by saying that the soul doesn't change but the soul's consciousness changes the soul's energy is consciousness like this is a light source the bulb is there the bulb doesn't change but if we put a red film on the bulb light will come out red, if we put a green film on the bulb light will come out green so the soul's consciousness changes based on the kind of the body mind covering that the soul has so now when we say the soul's consciousness changes this example simply indicates that the colour has changed what kind of colour the soul's consciousness what kind of light is coming out from there it's interesting in the 13th chapter verses 6 and 7 when Arjuna is Krishna is talking about Sankhya there he says Krishna is talking about Sankhya he says first in the 13.6 he describes the elements of material nature and then he says Iccha, Dvesha, Sukham, Dukham Sanghata, Chetana, Dhruti Etat, Kshetram, Sama Senasa, Vikaram, Udharitam so Vikara is transformation of Kshetra Kshetra is the physical body so transformation of the body and he says what are the transformations of the body desire Iccha, Dvesha, Attraction, Attachment and Aversion, Happiness, Distress and then he also says Chetana Consciousness Consciousness comes from the soul Consciousness and how is Krishna saying that Consciousness is the transformation of the Kshetra so here Krishna is talking about Conditioned Consciousness Consciousness as we experience it is a transformation of the Kshetra is caused by the change of the material nature so without going too much into the philosophy, I gave this background to illustrate that the soul's bondage right now is real and at one level from the ultimate perspective we could say the soul is Sachidananda and all emotions, all pain the experience is unreal but from a practical perspective the only consciousness we experience right now is Conditioned Consciousness we don't experience pure consciousness at all right now and that's why whatever emotions we experience in the Conditioned stage they are real experiences for us like say a child is watching a horror movie and a child is getting horrified by that so now is the horror that the child is experiencing real or false, illusory what do you think? real, for the child, it is real the child is actually safe nothing is happening to the child but as long as the child's consciousness is caught in the horror movie the emotion the child is experiencing is real, in the sense that it really affects the child so of course the horror movie can just the mother can just turn off one TV and the child can just look elsewhere and the horror movie effect may stop, but for us it's not like that, it requires purification so right now the Satchitananda soul's consciousness is projected into the body-mind and through the body-mind into the world and that's why whatever the experience at the physical level is a real experience for the soul and so we can't say that the emotions are simply illusory the emotions are arising from an illusory situation where the soul is identifying with the body, but that situation that bondage is right now real and because that bondage is real the experience is also real that's why at this stage it's important to understand that distress is also real and therefore I need to rectify if we say that all pain is unreal then there would be no meaning to say that this world is dukkhalaya when it is said that Vishwampurna Sukhayate for the pure devotees how is that happening? for them their consciousness is not fixated on the world at all their consciousness is absorbed in Krishna so the child is watching the horror movie the mother is next to the child if the child sees the mother the child hugs the mother's legs then the child will feel no fear or horror so the pure devotees who are absorbed in the lord's mercy lord lovingly their consciousness is no longer there in the middle the horror movie is still going on but they are no longer watching it that's why they don't feel horrified but as long as we are in the world the experience of emotions here is real so we accept the we understand theoretically that the soul is such an ananda and therefore we try not to get too carried away by the emotions so I have to put it this way that we may have to live with pain but we don't have to live in pain live with pain means pain is a component in our consciousness but live in pain means pain is the container of our consciousness there is nothing else in our consciousness except pain so sometimes when the painful situation is there in our life if we understand that okay I am a soul I am different from this then we can understand this is a situation I am experiencing it's a real situation for me but this is not the whole of me so some amount of distancing from the pain can be made by understanding our spiritual identity but that doesn't mean that we can deny or wish away the pain entirely okay thank you so if we go to the second part now the second part was that I was going to talk about how in scripture there is this point of emotionally healthy spirituality being talked about not specifically this term but how spirituality does not there is no demand made that one suppress one's emotions for the practise of spirituality I will talk about two examples when Arjun comes to know on the 13th night of the Kurukshetra war that Abhimanyu has passed away Arjun just shattered he has fought a long days war against the Trigartas and he is tired but he has wiped out a large section of Trigartas he is very happy about that at one level but when he comes back he starts noticing that nobody is smiling nobody is looking at him in the eyes there is no celebratory welcoming music being played and when he comes into the assembly he looks around all his brothers are gloomy their faces are shrunk and fallen and he looks and he notices that the seat of Abhimanyu is empty his heart stops beating and he just goes to Yudhishthir and asks him what has happened and Yudhishthir with great pain tells him Arjun is shattered he falls down and starts crying breaking down and then as Yudhishthir continues and tells what happened eventually Arjun gets furious and initially his anger is towards his own brothers and he says all of your weapons are they just like bangles you couldn't protect Abhimanyu he lashes out at all of them and finally he turns even towards Krishna Krishna you must have known what was happening why didn't you tell me and he just keeps ranting there is a whole chapter in the Mahabharata which describes Arjun's grief and at that time Krishna Krishna what is Krishna's response Krishna doesn't tell Arjun that why are you attached to the body of someone Krishna has told Arjun in the Bhagavad Gita in the 13th chapter that Putradhara Graha Adishu what is that Arathirana Swamga Putradhara Graha Adishu Annami Swamga don't be attached in fact even before wife Krishna uses the word son over there don't be attached to children, don't be attached to your spouse so Krishna doesn't tell you, you forgot the Bhagavad Gita Krishna doesn't tell you at that point that don't be attached to the body don't be materially attached Krishna is very empathic and understanding Krishna tells Arjun distress comes in the life of everyone but the great souls act in a way that they try to decrease others distress not increase their distress Arjun you can see your brothers are already mortified they are already in pain please don't speak word that will increase their pain so Krishna actually is very understanding very empathic Krishna doesn't go into philosophy at that particular point Krishna allows Arjun to vent his emotions and then slowly Arjun processes the emotions and after processing that emotion then his anger becomes constructively directed and gets directed towards whom? Jayadratha and the next day they attain one of the biggest victories of the Kurukshetra war Arjun single handedly brings down penetrates to the whole Kaurava ranks and brings down Jayadratha so here we see that Krishna does not dismiss Arjun's emotions even though they seem to arise from a material context the context of a material loss as told in the Bhagavad Gita but Krishna does not demand Arjun apply it immediately and not show any emotions this is with respect to loss of some loss of a loved one similarly when the whole incident of Draupadi being dishonoured happens and then the Pandavas are exiled to the forest and then Krishna comes to meet the Pandavas at that time Draupadi she breaks down and she tells Krishna, Krishna I cried out to you I begged to you for help why didn't you come you may say, didn't Krishna come actually at that time, sometimes in Mahabharata TV serials or movies you might see Krishna coming and showing his hand and saree coming from his hand or something like that but there in the actual assembly nobody understood what happened just that Draupadi's saree didn't end single cloth that she was wearing it just became an exhaustive and they thought that this is people thought this is because of her chastity that she couldn't be dishonoured so nobody saw Krishna over there so Draupadi Krishna why didn't you come and she says Krishna I'm your friend, I'm your devotee I'm your relative I deserve your protection, why did you protect me what does Krishna do at that time at that time Krishna doesn't say my plan is perfect how dare you question my plan there is this sometimes in shops and other places people put this Geeta Saar so this Geeta Saar jo hua wo achcha ho raha hai jo ho raha hai wo bhi achcha ho raha hai jo hone wala hai wo bhi achcha hi hoga whatever happened, whatever is happening whatever will happen, it's all good I have read the Bhagavad Gita many times there is no verse in the Geeta which says this there is no verse in the Geeta which says this so the point is not whether it is true or not that's a different issue which we can discuss but the point is the Geeta doesn't say this what the Geeta trusts is that not what is happening but what we are doing how we are responding so Krishna at that time he takes a very human kind of response Krishna says I didn't know this was happening he says if I had known I would have come immediately Krishna said that this demon Shalva Shalya or Shalva Shalva Shalva had had attacked Dwarka and he had wreaked so much devastation over there and I was busy defending Dwarka and as soon as I came to know I immediately rushed here so and then he consoles those who have dishonoured you your tears will never go in vain they will be punished Panchali keep heart so Krishna here also doesn't go into philosophy Krishna is very understanding Krishna gives an understandable explanation in consoling her so in general in scripture emotions are not wished away or emotions are not dismissed in the name of philosophy as far as I have seen I haven't seen any setting in scripture where a person is suffering and somebody comes and tells them that you are suffering because of your own karma they may say like that I don't know what unknown karma because of which I am suffering but whenever anybody is in distress others actually try to help them overcome the distress I don't want to say that it is just your own karma because of which you are suffering it is insensitive and it is inappropriate because there is a time to educate and there is a time to commiserate commiserate means to share the sorrow of others and help them deal with the sorrow there is a time to educate no doubt but through these various examples the point I am making is that when people are going through certain emotions those emotions need to be acknowledged and they need to be dealt with appropriately and sometimes speaking philosophy is also a way of dealing with those emotions but the point is not just to speak the philosophy the point is to help the person deal with the emotion and sometimes philosophy may not be required at all to deal with the emotion what may be required is just we be there to share their pain so if we are there then we can actually be a part of the solution and I remember that it was in South India or was it Gujarat there was this village which is completely devastated by natural calamity and after that some some teacher who went there and he spoke all of you are suffering your own karma and then after that a Christian preacher went there and just offered help and the whole village immediately became Christian in fact this is one of the main criticisms of Christianity against Hinduism they say that in the name of karma there is no concern for social justice there is no concern to help people who are in pain come out of their pain and that's why the inequality and all this is being perpetuated in India and of course that's only a part of the story but the point is that when people are going through pain their emotions need to be acknowledged and dealt with appropriately and there is an example in scripture where philosophy alone is not used to dismiss people's emotions there are situations where that can be done say for example in the case of Chitraketu when he is distressed the sages come and illuminate him that is a particular situation where the result is positive the result is positive but most people when they have lost someone at that time how best to help them it will vary from person to person so any questions about this anyone else ok yes I just wanted to check whether this so this means that what helps the person best whether addressing his emotions and becoming empathetic or whatever raises his consciousness from his situation just two more examples came to my mind in one example where the queens are lamenting over the king and Yamaraja comes as brahmin boy and he chastises them saying that why are you crying you are also under same situation it's like some hunter the whole story comes I understand what you are saying so there he kind of doesn't let them bend their emotions but kind of guides them through like coming to the higher consciousness of being aware of reality and also another place where the Mahaprabhu is dancing and the son of Shiva is dying and all the relatives are crying and Shiva says if you went out I will drown myself because I don't want to disturb all those people so this thought came to my mind and many places where the emotions are addressed philosophy is not being sensitively presented so what can you say that whether can we just do something which fits best for that situation so ok there are many good examples of where philosophy is helped to used to transcend the loss of death yes the important point here is that it's like a doctor administering treatment so what treatment works for whom sometimes if a patient is too much in pain and that doctor first says you are a painkiller then they can give the medicine sometimes the doctor patient is not so much in pain just give the medicine the patient will be cured so it's not that we are saying the philosophy of knowledge is like the medicine but sometimes the patient has to be at a particular level to take the medicine and being empathic these are not the ultimate solutions the ultimate solution is to become Krishna conscious but sometimes if a patient is in so much pain and there is no pain medication given it's like if surgery is to be done and if no anaesthesia is given for the surgery it will be horribly painful so now the anaesthesia is not the substitute for the surgery but we can't just remove the anaesthesia at all and just directly do the surgery so basically there has to be a balanced programme where there is a time for educating and there is a time for commiserating in today's psychology they say that people when they are facing loss they go through different phases first is denial that person has not died actually then there is anger then there is hopelessness it's not necessarily this sequence then gradually there is acceptance so people need time for grieving so in the Bhagavatam also it is said that after the Kurukshetra war got over Pandavas performed the last rites and they grieved for the loss of their loved ones in the Ramayana also it is said that when Dashavath Maharaj passed away they announced a nationwide period of mourning for the deceased king so lamenting is unwanted but grieving is essential for processing the emotion of loss and then moving ahead in life so it's again like if somebody is wounded there is a time when you need to if the hand is fractured there is a time when you need to rest the hand and then after that there is a time when we need to exercise the hand so if when the time the hand is to be rested at that time you don't rest it at all it will become worse but if after the hand is adequately rested then you don't exercise it then also it will be a problem hand will stay like that so if one doesn't grieve at all, all that emotion is there that loss, that feeling of loss is there one doesn't grieve at all that's like not acknowledging the hand is fractured but if one just keeps grieving grieving, grieving, grieving and doesn't move forward in life, that's like ok now it's over now we have to grow from it, we have to move on life moves on so we have to start exercising so we have to avoid both extremes of denying emotions and wallowing in the emotions just one so then in that it comes that one of the limbs is not letting ourselves be caught up in emotions like shock and the ten non-do's of the lower emotions so we can think it like that that we can give this grieving time for a particular thing but then we have to move on so that our company is not affected good question, good example actually you say not lamenting or not grieving not Shoka, Shoka is talking about the characteristics of a peyote bodhi there is a there are many letters of Prabhupada where he expresses emotions so there is a devotee who left, prominent leader who left the movement and Prabhupada wrote a letter saying that I have come to know about this this about you and I am feeling very forlorn forlorn is quite a poetic English word which means utterly lonely and desolated and deserted and then at the end of the letter Prabhupada expresses resolve that I am and I am determined to spend lord Chaitanya's mission and I am sure lord Chaitanya will send souls to assist him, if not you then someone else so Prabhupada expresses the emotion there is another letter, conversation where Prabhupada is in India, 76 or 77 and then reporter asks Prabhupada that many organisations that are founded by a guru, after that guru departs, the organisation breaks down so do you think this will happen in your movement and Prabhupada replies why are you discouraging me no no Swamiji I am not discouraging you, I am just asking a question, no but your question is discouraging now can Prabhupada be discouraged you could say that Prabhupada is a person who single handedly overcame all discouragements no help from his god brothers, no help from the Indian government, no financial support, nothing, he overcame hundreds of discouragements and still persevered went to the west and established Krishna consciousness so how can Prabhupada be discouraged simply by a question being asked by someone the point here is that actually it's not that Prabhupada doesn't experience that emotion but that emotion doesn't determine his action in one sense you could say determination means to keep our intention above our emotion we can't deny the emotion we do feel the emotion, yes I feel angry I feel hurt, I feel discouraged, I feel lonely but my purpose, my intention is above all this so there are emotions which we all experience, but we don't let those emotions shape our actions alone yes the link that you were supporting it says not giving in to extreme emotions oh good point thank you so we move on to the last part now we will talk about silent mode so it's strange, it is in do not disturb so it is disturbing it is put in silent mode it is the same as do not disturb does anyone know any tech savvy person since they got a new phone so ok so the last point I was going to speak on is that how does all this apply in the renounced order, in the brahmachari life generally when we embrace the renounced order at one level we disconnect ourselves from almost all of our material relationships and that what we are doing is determination, the decision is glorious at the same time our we still remain people with emotions and those emotions can't be denied now there are different kinds of emotions and some emotions we need to keep a distance from them in the Ramayana there is a beautiful incident where where when Lakshman sees Bharat coming to the forest with the army he becomes furious he thinks Bharat has come with the army to kill Ram he says I will kill Bharat before he can kill you but then when he finally sees how Bharat is so fervently begging to Ram please come back to the kingdom and when Ram refuses he says please give me your footwear today if two brothers are fighting if one brother gives his footwear to the other brother other brother will probably take it and beat the brother with it so then he sees how Bharat takes the footwear, puts it on his head and goes, he is very touched, he is very he is repentant of his initial angry outburst against Bharat then he asks Ram in a private moment afterwards why do I get angry so quickly and Ram replies that you are sentimental you are emotional so then Lakshman asks so is it sentiments are bad Ram replies no sentiments are not bad, sentiments are the ornaments of life but we need to choose those sentiments that take us towards Dharma and avoid those sentiments that take us away from Dharma so emotions are the ornament of life we can't live without emotions but we can choose which emotions we nourish and which emotions we don't pay attention to so for all of us we need a sense of connection, we need the need for relationships doesn't go away because we adopt the renounced order so that need has to be fulfilled and fulfilling that need of relationships there it doesn't it doesn't necessarily have to be through marriage with a partner but we need that we need to get that need fulfilled and so we need close relationships and when we say close relationships generally speaking what happens most of the seminars or talks that we have on relationships they end with the idea that we should not offend devotees, we should cooperate with devotees, we should live together that basically means that don't have bad relationships which is important no doubt but actually we need to have very close relationships also, not with many at least with one person somewhere where we can share our heart and now how does this happen it's not that we can just we can just automatically develop a relationship it requires like mindedness like mindedness means that the word like minded can have many different meanings but the meaning which I found most relevant is that where we share a definition of success with someone else share a definition of success, in bhakti there can be different definitions of success for somebody to build a big temple for Krishna that is their definition of success for somebody distributing books is their definition of success for somebody studying shastra understanding that is their definition of success for somebody making a lot of people to devote is their definition of success and this definition of success Prabhupada is so inclusive the Krishna movement is so inclusive that there can be many many different definitions of success but we need to connect with someone with whom it's not that both of us have only the same definition of success but we share a definition if somebody loves to study shastra then they need association of someone else with whom they can discuss shastra and they can discuss shastra in a way, not in an instructive way but in a way that is relished they speak something, you speak something and then that's how that bodhayantah parasparam happens if somebody is trying to do some other service they can say, deity worship somebody is doing and if somebody else with whom they can discuss deity worship not just somebody who comes and says beautiful decoration, beautiful dressing now beyond that there has to be much more meaningful discussion so this is something which each one of us has to take responsibility to find that association so I was introduced primarily because I was intellectually attracted to Krishna Bhakti I appreciate the philosophy very much and the intellectual side is quite strong within me and after a particular point of time I found that I had many questions which were not only not getting answered but which were not even being entertained so now one of the most frustrating things for us in spiritual life is we act a practical question we ask a practical question and we are given a transcendental answer say if you are facing a practical problem you know there is it's cold and we don't get warm water in the bathroom chant Hare Krishna what do you mean there is a practical problem yes there is a transcendental solution also is there but there needs to be a practical solution also so I remember once I asked a senior devotee some questions his answer was why do you have so many questions I said what do you mean I felt so un-understood at that time then another devotee I asked some questions and he quoted if you just have faith in Guru Hare Krishna everything will be answered but I said okay but everything is not being answered maybe I don't have faith but what do I do right now isn't it so I realised that at that time the way I was analysing the way I was discussing I realised that I need somebody who thinks that same way and that was the time when I got in touch with some devotees who were not so much from I was in Pune ashram they were devotees who were scholars who were writing books who were studying the broad tradition and then I connected with them by email then I went and met them started asking questions and then I discovered that the questions that I was having I have been practising bhakti for 10 years and they have been practising for 30 years and they are also battling with the same questions it's not that it's a black and white case that this is the answer and you have to accept it no they are also coming up with some understanding sometimes they will give an understanding to satisfy me sometimes they will not satisfy me sometimes they will also say that I also not found satisfactory answer to this question one senior devotee told me that when I read Prabhupada's books he said that there are there are so many places I just put them in double quotes this is the question which I need to address so I found that you could have those doubts you could have a way to address those doubts but you could continue practising bhakti because many of those doubts they are there and especially somebody is intellectual they need to be addressed but it is not that we have to stop practising our bhakti just because the doubt is not being addressed we can find the appropriate places where the questions can be answered so at that time for one or two years when I didn't connect with these devotees and I felt completely disconnected from the devotees around me I was I was very lonely but fortunately Krishna arranged for me to get connected but what it struck me at that time is that I had to take that responsibility myself it means it is my need and maturity means to understand that nobody is obliged to fulfil my need that doesn't mean nobody will fulfil my need but maturity means to understand that nobody is obliged to fulfil my need it's like normal growing up when a baby is born at that time the baby cries and the world runs to feed that baby the mother comes the father comes, the grandmother comes somebody comes and takes care of the baby but if that baby grows up to a young person and say a young man starts crying and nobody will run to feed that young man that doesn't mean that the young man's hunger is not real that doesn't mean the young man's need is not real but maturity means the mature person understands that nobody is obliged to fulfil my need I have to get my need fulfilled I have to go somewhere where I can get food I have to work and earn money so that I can get my food so similarly for us we all whatever is our particular need fulfilling it is our responsibility and to the extent we recognise this, to that extent we will take ownership for developing relationships that means if I find that there is some devotee with whom I can connect very nicely then at that time, I have to make time, I have to go out of the way I have to I have to I have to do what it takes to develop that relationship and when we do this, then we will feel emotionally also nourished so in this case of course I was talking about intellectual doubts being addressed, but it was not just intellectual problem, it was not so much that I needed answers, I needed the questions to be understood the fact that somebody can have questions and that doesn't mean that person is a doubter so similarly each of us will have particular concerns and we have to find out like-minded association where we can connect and to give an extreme example of this it is for us to take responsibility say just like if a boy wants to develop a relationship with a girl and the boy goes out of the way to court the girl to date with the girl, to spend time with her to please her so there the boy takes the responsibility to develop the relationship so we are not talking about that in a literal sense but the principle here is that in material life we take responsibility to develop relationship, we take the initiative so similarly we need to do that in our situations also and then what is our need how do we find that out I conclude with this two points now first is that we look at our life and look at the time when we felt most satisfied not just through an achievement but through some interaction what are the things that make us feel most satisfied and what are the things which if someone does not do we feel most dissatisfied so if you look at these two things in our social circle with devotees if somebody does this if some of us may feel that if we go out for preaching, we are going out for doing some service and then some senior devotee comes and appreciates, oh you did a wonderful service and that makes me feel satisfied or after I come back, I just need someone with whom I can talk and share my experiences and then our struggles our successes and then if somebody is willing to spend some quality time with me, I feel satisfied so if I am tired and somebody keeps a plate of prasad for me at that time I feel, oh somebody cares for me so these are all very simple examples but I am giving this as a point to illustrate that we all can try to understand what our emotional needs are by looking at what makes us feel loved valued, cared and what makes us feel unloved, unvalued, uncared and then once we understand that we can find out who can satisfy that I love to discuss philosophy and I have seen that there are some devotees who are more in the mode of doers just do this, do this, do this for them philosophy is also a tool for giving classes and converting people philosophy is not so much a tool for discussion so then I cannot really connect much with them there are some devotees with whom I can sit and discuss shastra and philosophy and its application for hours and hours together every year when I go to America I make it a point at least once to go to meet Giriraj Maharaj and Giriraj Maharaj usually when I go there now usually almost he is very kind to me we spend almost 6 to 8 hours just continuously discussing philosophy one time we started around after lunch or something we started around 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock and almost till 10 o'clock we were discussing now I felt so touched by that and I wrote a long mail to Maharaj appreciating it and then Maharaj wrote back to me something very striking I said Maharaj you are so kind so compassionate, you are extending yourself so much to give association Maharaj said that he said that actually what exact words he used he basically said that there is some association which which takes our energy and there is some association which gives energy so we discuss about his, he is a writer I am also a writer and editor so we discuss about his writing, different ways of writing what can be done how to go about writing so he said that the kind of discussion that we have there are not many people with whom I can have this discussion and I also love it, now I am not saying this to say that I am a very advanced devotee, this is spiritual advancement Maharaj is way way light years ahead of me but it is just that somehow I was able to connect we are able to connect and when you are able to connect then that need is there that is fulfilled so the it's for us, each one of us for me I find that if I can sit and discuss philosophy deeply not just in terms of asking questions getting answers but honestly addressing issues that nourishes me and those who are ready to do that I am ready to go way out of my way I am ready to spend time with them so whatever is our need if we so when I go to America and I come back, more than the classes that I give often it is this kind of quality discussions that I have with people that is what nourishes me more that is what I feel enriched by and so these two things if we look at what makes us feel unloved, unvalued, uncared and what makes us feel loved, valued, cared then accordingly we can find out how best to take care of our emotional needs and once we start taking care of our emotional needs many things in our spiritual life will start falling in place we will start finding that our chanting will become better our overall attitude towards devotees in general will become better our attitude towards our sadhana, our seva will also become better the emotional need is not addressed then we will feel choked constantly and that choked feeling will impede everything in our spiritual life now I am not saying addressing emotional needs is like a magic wand that will solve all problems it is only Krishna consciousness that is the ultimate magic wand but just as if we are sitting and doing japa and our back is paining now if there is a little pain we can tolerate but if the pain is too much then we can't chant we may have to do some massage or apply some thing to it and then we can chant after that so similarly with respect to emotional needs, if they are not addressed then we will find that they will constantly keep interfering with our Krishna consciousness and we are not even conscious of Krishna but if the emotional needs are addressed then we can connect with Krishna in a way which is not impeded by our emotions but rather our emotions aid us in connecting with Krishna so I will summarise I spoke three main points today I spoke about how the body mind and soul these are all distinct levels of reality, at one level we differentiate them and understand that I am not the body, I am not the mind but at another level we integrate them in our devotional purpose the body and the mind are essential for transcending the body and the mind by using them in Krishna's service and therefore whatever we experience at the physical and mental level, we can't just wish it away, we have to address it appropriately and that means that we don't let the physical or mental just, one extreme is to get carried away by it, another is to suppress it, but the more balanced approach is to process it so using our intelligence we can understand which emotion is coming from the situation which from the disposition and which from a combination of both then I gave a scriptural example where emotions are not wished away whether it is Draupadi's anger at her dishonour or Arjuna's anger at this Varnu being killed the point is that philosophy is not used to wish away emotions there is a time to educate and there is a time to commiserate the point is not that we don't educate or commiserate, the point is that we help people deal with their emotions in the most effective way and when our spirituality is not emotionally healthy then we get choked by negative emotions start becoming irritable and we start feeling disheartened, lonely, uncared and then last point I talked about was that that we need to address our emotional needs even when we are in the renounced order and maturity means to understand that no one is obliged to fulfil our needs we have to take responsibility for finding out like minded devotees who share a definition of success with us and then we have to take responsibility to put the time and energy to connect with them and to share our heart with them and to understand what our emotional need is we can look at what it is that we what when it is not done it makes us feel very unloved, unvalued, uncared and what when done we feel very valued, loved and cared and by taking care of our emotional needs we will find that the mind and the emotions interrupting us in the practise of Krishna consciousness will become significantly lesser and we will be able to move forward in our spiritual life so any questions or comments yes so the like minded association sometimes could be of course sharing the same definition of success but it could also be like a complementary relationship like a peerage with a teacher and student kind of relationship also oh yes when I say shared definition when I say that shared definition of success it could be that teacher and the student both say relish philosophy so then both of them discuss philosophy one of them might be more of the speaker the other might be the listener but both of them share the definition of what they relish it sometimes it may be that say a devotee who is a book distributor and a devotee who is a pujari they might also find that they are like minded if even that book distributor is not doing much deity worship and the deity worship pujari is not doing much book distribution but if they both have a healthy hearty appreciation for each other's service then they might be able to connect so that means both of them understand that both of these are definitions of success I appreciate this definition you also appreciate this definition of success not appreciate it just in a formal institutional kind of way but really this is very valuable okay I am not doing it right now but it is invaluable so yeah it could be it doesn't have to be necessarily a particular stereotype but it's just that there has to be some natural meeting point of two people that natural meeting point how it comes out that can vary so there are some things which we have to consciously exercise ourselves to focus and connect we can do that as a service say some devotee is describing about their service and we are not really interested in that so much but as a service we may do that but something we are naturally interested so there is a natural meeting point that has to be there to what time shall we stop Balram Shetty 2 Balram Shetty what time should we stop it's almost 8.33 now okay no not up to me up to all of us yeah too long classes are not emotionally healthy so okay one question one more question two questions yeah okay and secondly generally when you say satisfaction you find something external activities you are not satisfied that means you are not satisfied how to define okay so Krishna at one point says that you should be internally satisfied 5.24 and then he says also 10.9 so when you say you should be satisfied is it that it should be some activities that we do or is it that we are internally satisfied generally when we talk about internal and external that is broadly in the context of material and spiritual if externally there are some sense objects which we are using to gratify ourselves and which take us much more into bodily consciousness into material consciousness then it is a problem as I said in bhakti the world is a resource for us to reach the source that means that even when we are practising bhakti we often choose the externals that help us to go towards the internals we encourage people to come to the association of devotees come to a temple, come to a satsang satsang is it the external it is external but it is the external that guides us towards the internals if somebody goes to a bar or a disco that is also external but that is the external which will direct them more towards the sensual, more towards the physical more towards the material so there are certain external settings which can take us towards the internals so internal ultimately means not just a soul but Krishna and Krishna is manifested everywhere he is within and he is without also he is present as a deity, he is present within as a super soul and he is present in so many manifestations so if we use the word external and internal literally then being internally satisfied would mean that we are just alone and uncaring about our external situations we are satisfied but if we use the external and internal to refer to external as getting material, physical, sensual and internal meaning becoming spiritual, becoming devotional, becoming connected with Krishna then whatever it takes for us we do to connect with Krishna in fact we could say preaching at one level is external activity isn't it if we were just internally satisfied then why would we at all try to preach now in preaching also there is a certain amount of internal satisfaction that means when I give a class if a lot of people come for a class, that's wonderful but even if not many people come just the opportunity to speak about Krishna is also nourishing for me so there is even while doing externals we could be internally satisfied but external gives us a forum by which we can move towards internals a forum by which we can move we can grow internally we can connect with Krishna so both when Krishna says be internally satisfied if we can reach this we can connect with the super soul internally and we can observe in Krishna internally then that's the idea of being internally satisfied if by the association of devotees we connect with Krishna, we become conscious of Krishna then that is also wonderful so the point is we have to connect with Krishna yes last question so as you discussed that emotions that can come two way, three ways from this person and also institutional position so I have some practical question from couple of years still going on so when somebody choose the renunciation order and practising from some sort of understanding to decide I should give Krishna service according to this position of institutional base is it easy to change asuras for 2-3 years to understand sometimes it is very after 10 years 15 years and then suddenly changing asuras bad but still in unfavourable condition or bad situation one should take more shelter Krishna and more tolerance power rather whatever may be mind set or whatever and one life is of Krishna so how the cycle changes how to understand why this is happening all the theory, all the knowledge that time fails means that somebody after 20 years only 20 years life was 60-70 years now you are 25 so it is so how to understand so why is it that we can't just give one life for Krishna that after 20 years or 10 years of practising bhakti and you only have 20 more more years need to change the ashram some people feel the need to change the ashram see at one level to say give one life to Krishna is it sounds very nice but one life is very long time while we are living it while we are living it even one day can seem a very long time also so there is there is the reality which we each one of us is to deal with the way it comes out and with respect to why certain desires may come at particular times we shouldn't see that necessarily as a failure of the bhakti practise that's important that ultimately the ashram that we choose is a material choice it's not necessarily directly a spiritual choice or not directly a devotional choice there can be people who there can be mayavadis who have no devotion for Krishna and they may have renunciation so you could say ok they are detached but there are there are people one of the most prominent atheists he he remained single throughout his life so sometimes some people just by their past karma might have a certain level of sattva by which they they can practise they don't feel the need for a relationship of that of that kind at one level just as we understand that artha you know Krishna has six opulences wealth is one of the opulences knowledge is one of the opulences similarly renunciation is also one of the opulences some people are born wealthy some people are born poor why is that? that's because of past karma similarly renunciation is also something which some people may get from their past something you may not get from their past of course things could be a little more subtle that that by the practise of bhakti also renunciation may develop so when a particular person is developing renunciation is that renunciation or is adopting renounced order that could be because that person has had the karma for renunciation from his previous life that means they have that opulence just like some people have wealth, some people have good looks, some people have great brain power, jnana some people like that may have renunciation one of my friends he is just studying astrology and he did a he did a astrological chart of many of the famous sanyasis in our movement as well as outside and he pointed out how all of them in their astrological indication they had a lot of vairagya but then he also talked about some people in renounced order who did not have much vairagya but still they were also vairagyas so sometimes it may be possible that by the power of bhakti also one may be able to do that but we shouldn't see that that somebody has practised bhakti but they are not they are not in the renounced order or they are not able to maintain the renounced order it's not necessarily that everybody who practises bhakti will go to the renounced order in the past there were so many grunts, majority were always grunts so there is renunciation there is a renounced order somebody can have renunciation but they may not have renunciation suited for being in the renounced order they might be grahasthas also and they might be renounced also so why I am giving this point is that just like a person may be born wealthy but by their karma they might lose wealth at a particular time by past karma they might just go through a phase where their wealth goes down and then after sometime their wealth may come back so similarly if you understand that renunciation is also a gift it's something which we may get by our past karma but of course we may develop it also by our present bhakti so it could be in some way that our present bhakti practise are deficient and that's why those desires are coming up again but it could also be that we are going through a phase in our life where the renunciation is just going down it may come back again the important thing is not so much to ask not so much to be judgemental in thinking in terms of success and failure it's more in terms of thinking about what is effective what works best for me how can I best serve Krishna and if one has that understanding then one can non-judgementally choose how best we can serve Krishna sometimes you know we just find that the dissatisfaction that we are facing the desire that we are facing they might just be because we are exposing ourselves to tempting situations unnecessarily we are going into a service which may not be the best for us so we change our situation, come out of the tempting situations and then we find that we can go forward quite nicely sometimes it may be that our desires may be just distorted expressions of some unfulfilled need that means that say for example this is how our desires emerge that is quite an elaborate subject of study nowadays because of the addictions that are hugely consuming society so it's found that when a person starts abusing alcohol they say that first the drinker takes a drink then the drink takes the drink and then the drink takes the drinker that means the desire keeps growing growing growing so why would somebody start drinking sometimes it may be that they are just they just feel lonely and drinking is the means by which they hang out with people such people are called as social drinkers so if their society, if their social circle changes and they can get a sense of belonging to a social circle without needing to drink, they will stop drinking so their need is not alcohol their need is a sense of belonging for some people it might be just that whenever they feel distressed, whenever they feel disturbed, they need an escape and alcohol is their escape and so there is a healthy need that is, ok, I'm tired, I need some drink but the unhealthy express way for that, unhealthy escape way for that is drinking it's not just a matter of willpower at that time I'll not drink, I'll not drink they have to find out how can I address this need how can I find a more healthier, more holistic escape way for myself we need relief so some people may find it in music some people may find it in meditation some people may find it in whatever activities some people may find it in physical activities just go for a physically vigorous workout swimming, jogging, whatever and they find an escape way some people just find it in boxing just box your anger out of yourself so this is there is a need and there is a craving so the craving is unhealthy but the need is need is naturally healthy so we have to find out what need is there and we address that sometimes after 20 years when certainly desires start surfacing that we have to look back at what need is not being fulfilled there is no guarantee that when we start practising bhakti whatever desires we have they will go down necessarily in a literally linear way the desires will go down but it is also that when the desire pops up again what is the reason it has popped up it is not just simply that I am not practising bhakti nicely it could be that there is something else which is which I am lacking and which needs a need to fulfil so once we look at this in a more objective way that means objective means rather than going in judgement oh I am so fallen, I am so sinful, I am so lusty I am so that, no that is one way of looking at it but another way of looking at it is ok look at ourselves from the point of view what you call a social scientist now who is this person this person is done like this let us try to observe ourselves from a third person's perspective look at ourselves from outside what is this person going through and then try to understand ourselves better sometimes our desires instead of battling with them of course sometimes some desires have to be battled with but we can use our desires as tools or as stimuli for understanding ourselves better and once we understand ourselves better then actually we can go through life much more smoothly which ashram we go through that is something which will be eventually decided but rather than seeing the re-emergence of a desire simply as a failure of our bhakti we can see the re-emergence of a particular desire as a pointer as a prompt for deeper self understanding sometimes the institutional taboos sort of shade our force or introspection in a particular direction which may not be the best course of introspection ok yeah sometimes our institutional taboos may force us to introspect also in a particular direction yeah i remember i met ravindra sirupram in america and he was telling me that in the early days of institutional consciousness movement they had the idea that if you live in the temple you are transcendental if you live near the temple you are in the mode of goodness if you live little away from the temple you are in the mode of passion if you live far away from the temple you are in the mode of ignorance so the transcendental was reduced to the geographical so they had the idea that if anybody left the temple even if they are practising bhakti outside they have fallen down and whenever anybody would have a fall down like that in that definition they will still be practising bhakti but then he said all of us would come together now he may be exaggerating in his humility but he said all of us would come together and collectively point out the faults of that person because of which that person fell down and then we would pat ourselves on the back everything is fine with us and let's go on with our bhakti so now it's not necessary that is different people have different needs and different people practise bhakti differently so sometimes there is a great tendency to try to prove ourselves right so the capacity for self-criticism requires a level of honesty which is not easy to have both at an individual level and an institutional level so that doesn't necessarily mean that it is not possible but we have to find out who with whom we can do this kind of honest introspection there are certain certain certain people who have very black and white understanding of bhakti and with them if we start raising certain questions then they just dismiss us as deviants or doubters or whatever and there are others who have more nuanced understanding of bhakti and there is there are some people who who treat people as put extreme word for this they treat people as guinea pigs for their ideological experiments and this is what has to be done and if you are not doing it you are wrong but if you understand that people are not, it's like a how do you put it are people meant for the process or is process meant for the people ultimately it is that everything is meant for Krishna but what does Krishna want, is it that Krishna wants that Krishna wants everyone to become devotee Lord Shaitanya Mahaprabhu said that one devotee is more precious than the whole universe so it's like I was at a hospital in America where I was giving a talk and after that one person came and talked with me and we had a lot of good talks on medical ethics so what happens is that sometimes a particular treatment doesn't work not because the treatment is wrong but that say in particular people with particular backgrounds some people may have some particular chemical deficiency, they may not have vitamins, they may not have this, they may not have that so now when that medicine, that particular treatment is not working in a particular person either we could somehow if a person is an expert doctor, not expert in terms of expert researcher or expert in that field they can just blame it on this this thing went wrong and that's why it didn't work but somebody who is more honest and more compassionate say okay, this treatment is not working here so our goal is not just to prove that this treatment is right yeah the treatment is right, it has worked for many people but it's not working with this person, maybe not just this people but this community of people people from this background, people with this diet, people for this whatever so then what do we need to do to make sure that this treatment works for these people so we have to see similarly that some people are more concerned with proving the treatment right than healing the patient some people are concerned yes we accept the treatment is right but we are also concerned that this treatment is not healing the patient so what do we need to do to heal the patient so that honesty, sometimes somebody is in a hospital and they are very concerned about the prestige of the hospital, somebody has invented a particular medicine pharmacy company invented a particular medicine and they say this is the cure for this disease and it's not working it can become a big scam where they try to cover up all the negative results and they prop up only the positive results so now that is a commercial material example but something similar may happen some devotees are more concerned with the process this is what we have to follow yes we have to follow but there is a result that is to come and the result is not coming then we have to see what needs to be done may be something needs to be adjusted Prabhupada was very practical I was talking to Raj Maharaj so he told me that he was talking to Shrutakirti Prabhu I was doing a programme with Shrutakirti Prabhu and somebody asked Shrutakirti Prabhu what was the what is the quality of Prabhupada that you like the most and Shrutakirti Prabhu said I have never found any person as practical as Shrutakirti Prabhu now we say is practical really that greater quality they say that Prabhupada is a pure devotee such a vigorous creature but practical means Prabhupada did what worked and something didn't work Harinam Sankirtan is the core of our process but when the devotees are doing Harinam Sankirtan in Bengal people started throwing coins at them because in Bengal Vaishnavism at that time was considered like a poor man's a beggar's excuse for begging so Prabhupada said we don't want to be lumped with them and Prabhupada at that time stopped Kirtan itself not in the temples but in the public circles so Prabhupada is practical in doing what was needed to serve Krishna's purpose so we have to find out who will help us so the introspection can be going back to your point is the process not being followed right we have to check that also but we also have to check this patient is not getting healed so what could be the situation and how do I deal with that so some people like with respect to this karma theory there is one critic many people when people are suffering many preachers they are more concerned with getting God off the hook than helping the hurting people don't blame God God is not to be blamed when a person is suffering the important thing is not whether they blame God or not the important thing is how do they deal with the suffering and grow from it so our purpose is that we help people whatever it takes to help them we do that and if some people are not ready to have that kind of honest introspection then we have to find who is ready to do that and there are devotees who are also ready to do that so we just have to find those devotees and then connect with them so thank you very much.