Examining mythology 3 – The Monk’s Podcast 99 with Shyamananda Prabhu

Podcast:

Hare Krishna. Welcome. Hare Krishna.

Thank you so much. So today I think we will continue and hopefully conclude our discussion on mythology and till now if we had like a diagram we have discussed the ethical aspects how ethical lessons can be drawn through the ladder of abstraction. Then we discussed about the historical aspects how the historicity has been established at least of some aspects through Dwarka findings and things like that.

Then we discussed about the metaphorical aspect how the non-literal understandings are okay as long as they supplement but they don't supplant the historical the literal understanding. Then also we discussed to some extent the idea that these are stories for they are also entertaining stories with drama and action and all these can help attract attention. So today I think we will discuss two more aspects.

One is the supernatural aspects within it and finally we will discuss the enlightenment aspect how these are also sources of enlightenment. Now by supernatural there are this is related with entertainment that there are some people who say that in the past people were gullible, they did not know scientific laws and that's why whenever any stories were made up they believed it easily. So now we should be able to differentiate between what is made up in the story and what is actually real or so that these are made up stories.

So now there are two aspects one is some people say that some part of the stories are made up and some people say the whole stories are made up the entire story is made up but either way they often use the miraculous aspects of these stories to disprove their historicity. So one way to establish the historicity is by finding fossils and artefacts and things like that. But they don't that doesn't address the fact that these stories contain a lot of supernatural things.

So in other words supernatural itself has a lot of lot of connotations but here we will simply use it to refer to that which is not understandable by the modern laws of science, by the laws of physics. From our perspective many of these phenomena are not supernatural because they are still within material nature but they are just not within nature as understood through physics. Just a small query do we also accept that even modern physics so to say is also in a flux, it also has great minds trying to say that okay this was pre-newtonian and this is how we understood things two centuries ago but now we are having some people who also have established that okay this was seen as a particle, now it is seen as a wave, okay this was seen as something now it is seen as something else so you have, I mean just for a layman can you shed some light on that? Yeah it's a very good point in fact quantum uncertainty and the way to deal with the quantum uncertainty through multiple universes has allowed what some sceptics or atheists call a back door entry for spirituality so basically these are very technical concepts but briefly No but just to say this is how they feel this is how much they fear that in the hard structured Cartesian logical world of physics they are just wary that you know some of the weaker minds among the physicists they might allow some spirituality to some lurk in and do its mischief that's true in fact there are basically what the Newtonian physics, it's like physics and biology if you consider physics is considered to be the most fundamental of all sciences because it deals with literal physical objects they exist tangibly and then their interactions are chemistry and interactions which involve living organisms and biology so what has happened is that physics has increasingly moved toward incorporating consciousness means from mechanistic toward non-mechanistic but biology has tried to move increasingly from conscious to mechanistic okay they are moving in opposite directions biology does deal with conscious beings but the increased almost rabid you could say attempt among biologists especially evolutionary biologists is to try to explain everything including consciousness in physical terms on the other hand physics itself to explain itself if consciousness has been incorporated so this could also spiritual trends within science could also be a future topic for us to discuss actually it so happens that some of our topics get incubated and generated within the conversation itself yeah that's true so just to recap coming back to our track but this could also relate with us so quantum I have seen at least 2-3 devotees as well as several Christian scholars talk about how quantum physics talks about multiple universes and multiple levels of reality just like you pursue things from one perspective it's a wave another perspective you pursue its particle so like that within mainstream science itself multiple modes of perceiving could lead to multiple perceptions of reality that is that is more or less acceptable fact it's not a widely accepted thesis but that is some way we could also talk about some spiritual perceptions which are given in our tradition also but coming back to your point that there is an aspect within the leela within the past times which seem to be not acceptable to the logical mind so I will give an example so what I will be doing is I will give an example then the criticism of the explanation criticism of the example and then the defence for the example and you can add as you like we can take it for that example also say for example let's look at the Govardhan Leela now when Krishna lifts up a hill as I described in the story a significantly large hill then people their logical attitude is how can anyone lift up a hill like this and people at that time didn't know about the law of gravity and that's why when some stories like this were made up people just believed those stories but now we need to evaluate the stories with critical intelligence so there are several issues with it first is that did the people in the past lack critical intelligence because when Krishna lifted up the Govardhan hill even the Vrajavasis who saw it first hand still they had their doubts they saw it but then they asked Nanda Maharaj how did he do it so it is not that they were gullible and they were ready to believe anything but then they were open for some other kind of explanation and what was that explanation when Nanda Maharaj said that actually he is Narayan or he is as good as Narayan because he is blessed in a particular way and then that's what the sage Gargamuni at his birth has told us so then that oh ok if he is Narayan then he can do such things if he is a supreme being so the point is that they were they also knew how nature works but that there are some forces, there are some beings higher than nature who can adjust the workings of nature, they were open to that explanation one of the dogmas of modern science is the universality and the inescapability of the laws of nature that the laws of nature have to work everywhere at all times in just the same way they are working on the earth so of course the law of gravity works everywhere the specific volume may vary for example the constant G varies on the earth that's why moving on the moon they hop over there but the principle of gravity is universal, the specific force of gravity will vary but this is ok we agree with this law but we also understand that this law is working under some higher guidance now within mainstream physics where the laws of nature come from is something which has never been clearly explained so there are broadly three theories about it one is the laws just exist along with matter from the primordial state of the universe so the laws are innate properties of matter the second is that the laws are emergent properties and different laws may emerge in different universes and in our universe the laws that are suitable for life to eventually emerge have come about and the third is which is strongly reviled by many mainstream scientists who are atheistic is that these laws signify a divine intelligence so now but the point is that why should the laws exist at all if originally things became singularity the singularity itself did not have any specialised characteristics then how did laws of mathematical precision emerge from it so that's a perplexity so at least one explanation is there that these laws reflect a higher intelligence and this is not exactly the design argument because the design argument says that specific forms are a manifestation of divine intelligence here we are not talking about the specific forms, we are talking about just the principles that govern the universe in terms of the laws so the idea is if there is a god who is in charge of the laws maya, dekshena, prakriti as Krishna says so then Krishna can suspend the laws of nature when he wants so law of gravity normally works but he can suspend it when he wants and Krishna doesn't need to for example if I have to lift up this tablet now if I have to lift up one finger I will have to find the exact centre of gravity and balance it over there so Krishna doesn't need to find the centre of gravity because he is the source of gravity and he can suspend gravity whenever he wants so the idea is that miracles or the supernatural events within scriptures, the miracles are not against science they are above science so against science means that we naively believe there are no laws of nature but we fully accept that there are laws of nature but also suyate saccharacharam hetu na nena kaunteya jagad viparivartate that by its law things change in this world so Krishna acknowledges there is a material nature and it has its own laws but then he says I supervise them so this is how there is a philosophical explanation for the miraculous events within scriptures so what we call as miracles or what we call as supernatural or miraculous there is a explanation from a we could say a rationality that includes a divinity so we have a explanation it is not entirely irrational but if you reject the idea of overarching divinity then this seems irrational so that's one aspect right any thoughts on this these are just some personal feelings when for the first time I heard this explanation from Prabhupada in his class and also in Red Nipple Court that law a law maker precedes the existence of a law it's a law maker who states that it has to be like that and that is a general I am talking of a layman's point of view that is a general experience throughout world history and now this is like a really banal daily life occurrence there is a road like state in India you say keep left so we need to go somewhere keep left and go ahead and the coming traffic is in the opposite direction your right side is where the cars are coming towards you and you are keeping left and the municipality or the RTO the road traffic organisation here says that for the next three days this road is no entry because we are doing something here for some reason and everybody follows it so it may be naive to make this on a huge cosmic scale but here is a existing law that you can use this road then I am introduced to the law making authority who comes and tells me that from today you cannot use it for the next three days and hopefully there is a good reason so they have the power to make the law they have the power to suspend the law and after three days I find again I am supposed to follow the old rule so law making is like elastic the law making authority is rigid whenever they want to suspend something they want to start something so therefore what Roper explains is stones are normally supposed to sink but in the presence of Ram and if you don't accept Ram's divinity that's a different thing but if you read the Ramayan where it is emphasised advertised you are exhorted to you are encouraged to accept it then in the presence of the law giver if the Vanaras are writing Ram and have this faith that this stone will float so the stone doesn't float because suddenly the physics have changed there is a reason behind it the authority behind the previous law that stones have to sink is now saying that they should not sink so even at a minute level in human society like in the times of war if the home or the field is right near the border with the enemy country the military may come and say in the name of the law with the war act or whatever the powers given by the emergency act of so and so you are not supposed to stay in your own home you may say but then I pay the rent and everything no but now it's an emergency you are all being evacuated and this home will be used by the military every country has this law by the way you might think that you are staying in your home, your land or whatever but the government by one stroke of a pen can change everything so within human society we see that if human society is a microcosm of the cosmic reality principles are the same law making authority makes enacts laws when somebody opposes them enforces them and keeps them elastic enough that they can change them so I think nothing more is happening even in Ramayana and Mahabharata just a way of looking at things so it ultimately points down to a choice of how we see the laws of nature if we see the laws of nature as itself as as independent realities which actually doesn't have a rational explanation why should the laws exist as independent realities there is a law which says you cannot go beyond 70 miles who made it nobody knows who enacts it nobody knows if somebody doesn't follow it nothing happens if you follow it nothing happens and there is no historical beginning of it this is strange this is more strange than feeling that there is a divinity who is assuring something has to be that's true so now within the within the aspects of scripture that that what is the word that agitate or provoke the rational mind I think there are different categories one is which we explain as the direct actions of divinity so I would like to make this as four or five categories and then we could discuss them another is say for example there are many scholars of the Ramayana who say the Ramayana is a perfectly rational tale till it comes to the Kishkindakand and from there on it becomes like a children's fable with all kinds of animals talking till then it's human beings and human beings talk but animals don't and we have first monkeys talking and then we have bears talking and then we have vultures talking so it just becomes too actually it becomes even before the Kishkindakand itself it happens but it's almost like filled with animals talking so that's one category so now another I just mentioned the categories and then we can discuss one of them so beings acting in ways which ordinary beings, other beings apart from God acting in particular ways that's one aspect then another aspect is beings having powers that normally human beings don't have say for example mystic powers that certain beings have shape shifting flying in the sky becoming invisible or whatever that's another aspect and another aspect is that there are there are simply the dimensions are unbelievable say for example there is a mountain which is several miles large or there is there are time spans and physical things which are huge so we will look at these three things that means the abilities of beings and dimensions of dimensions of things so first with respect to the talking monkeys see the Ramayana is quite clear that there are certain vanaras themselves are not ordinary beings in fact the word vanara means or wise or nara is human or human when people see them oh are these human beings who are they so it is described that these are celestial apes so the understanding is that there are different beings in the universe and some beings have the power to talk because although they may resemble certain beings on the earth but they may not be those beings exactly another point could be that also sometimes some highly higher evolved beings take birth on the earth and when they take birth on the earth they may have higher powers so many of the vanaras are actually celestial beings Sugriva is the son of Sun of Surya Surya ya Vali was the son of Indra and beyond that also some other cases when a being is able to talk that is because they were already evolved in the previous life spiritually like Gajendra when he talks and he composes Sanskrit prayers that is because he is already an evolved soul in the previous life and some abilities especially those connected with spiritual reality can be carried from a previous life to the next life and sometimes if some beings are able to do some things extraordinary that might be again directly divine intervention so for example Lord Chaitanya made the animals dance and sing the Hare Krishna Mantra as it is said this is the direct action of divinity so that means again the point is it's not that all animals are expected to talk in the Ramayana Mahabharata there are also descriptions when Sita is lost when Sita is being stolen first Sita calls out to the animals please tell Ram please help and Ram asks the birds and the animals now none of the birds and the animals there reply and speak in a human speech so it's not that any and every natural creature is attributed speaking ability over there so it's not indiscriminate so in that sense we have a particular box of rationality but beyond that there are other things which are also included in rationality so that's the explanation for these kind of beings having some special abilities any thoughts on this? no you covered almost everything ok now with respect to supernatural powers say for example somebody can you know there is a whole genre of supernatural power teleportation somebody closes their eyes and goes find themselves at some other place somebody has clairvoyance they can look into some other people's abilities they can see something invisible and know what is going on now these are all described as abilities at the level of the mind so now with respect to Hanuman's jumping across to Lanka now it's not technically how does he do it it is a combination of physical prowess complemented with divine grace because the various monkeys ask and they say I can jump this far I can jump this far but I can't jump this far so it's a matter of physical prowess but Hanuman is able to jump much more because he has got extraordinary physical prowess by God's grace but there is a whole genre of mystic powers and in fact Devamrith Maharaj has written a whole book called Searching for Vedic India where he tries to give a lot of rational explanations for various mystic powers so when there is an encounter with beings for example who can say Ravana changes his form or Maricha changes his form so how are such things possible now we don't have any empirical evidence for somebody being able to change their form but something in that direction that people do have powers say for example if somebody has a spoon and there are ways in which you can just by the thought of your mind by your thoughts can actually get the spoon to bend most of this is hoax but there are some cases which have actually been done with respect to the so basically the basic principle is without going into specifics is that the mind has powers of its own and the mind can act on matter in ways that are not explainable by the laws of physics and probably the most evident or the most well established evidence for this is random number generators and they study at Princeton University basically random number generator would generate a number between 0 to 9 with a probability of 1 out of 10 but if there is somebody who stands near that random number generator and says let 6 come, let 6 come, let 6 come now it's not that every time 6 will come but the statistical results indicated significant increase in the number 6 if you do this probability if you do this experiment at a very high speed over large numbers so if you do thousands or thousands of trials, thousands and thousands of trials then the number 6 comes much more than other times and interestingly this happens it doesn't depend on physical distance so the person desiring that the random number generator should give 6 can be in London and this can be in Princeton oh really? but still it happens and not only that they find that the person can desire this on Monday and they do the experiment on Friday and still it happens so this is not conclusive evidence but it is at least indicative that maybe the universe is what is that saying in Shakespeare, Othello I think there are more things in the world than what your philosophy can comprehend there are more wonders in this world Horatio than thou can comprehend of ok Horatio yeah so so there at least there can be openness to that and then the then comes the part of huge dimensions so for example in the Bhagavatam there is description of Himalayan mountains as being far far bigger than what we know them to be so how is this to be understood so this is where the quantum physics with different ways of perceiving comes up that the same reality is perceived at different levels in different ways so when scripture describes a particular reality one of my favourite examples for explaining this is a computer with multiple levels of access if I have a basic user access then if I search all files in the laptop you have 6000 files over here but somebody who has administrative access they search all files and they may find that there are actually 11000 files over there oh yeah but the 5000 files are not accessible to me because I don't have that level of access so in the Vedic tradition there is a whole concept of Jnana is always associated with Adhikar now how much knowledge you have depends on how much authority you have to access that knowledge authority means in terms of qualification so reality is multilevel and certain certain cosmological aspects such as landmarks like the earth or whatever they can have multiple levels of perception and different people perceive it differently based on the level of their karmic qualifications just to add something in today's world there could be say Intel like we have both been to Intel in Phoenix Arizona so a concierge like a front office receptionist could be allowed only in the front office area, cafeteria and washroom a janitor may be allowed in say few more areas a scientist may be allowed in almost all areas and few key people may be the top boss of that particular area their card could open them access to each and every nook and cranny of the entire so 5000 strong base there so right from the top person to the front office receptionist the commonalities that they are all employees they are all part of the system but if you tell them describe what this facility is obviously somebody who has access to only 10% of the area will say that this is what I know about this thing and he is not telling a lie but he is simply inadequate that's beautiful I think it's a much more accessible example than computer files this is also about physical terrains that's good and so that's broadly how some questionable dimensions and figures can be explained now there is also I think we discussed about Chitraketu and his 10 million wives we discussed in the first session we didn't now there is also one more possibility we could say that these are traditional literature they are poetry they are poems and in poems there is a possibility for for rhetorical emphasis through exaggeration so it is not that everything which is contrary to our understanding is to be considered exaggerated but there is a possibility that certain dimensions they are given for the purpose of emphasising something for the purpose of say conveying a particular reality where the emphasis is not on the literal reality so for example if someone there is a description that Chitraketu had 10 million wives so now how is this practically possible now one explanation could be that if it is given in scripture it is possible maybe at that time beings had more prowess but somebody may say logically how was he able to associate with so many wives so now if some people might just say this is what is given in scripture we accept it but there is no indication in that particular story that Chitraketu himself had some supernatural powers he couldn't even have a son although he tried to have one with so many wives so then another explanation could be that the main lesson of the story is that no matter how much arrangements we make for material enjoyment if certain things are not destined they will not come and if we if we gate crash ourselves to get that happiness that happiness will come with corresponding distress so we can't get more than what we are ordained that is the main lesson of this past time and that's what happens when he gets a son and his son is poisoned in his early infancy so the point is if that is the main lesson that become detached from don't be infatuated by certain worldly pleasures thinking that they will give you happiness then the specific number of how many wives he has doesn't matter for that lesson and there is a purport on Prabhupada says that Chitraketu had hundreds of thousands of wives sorry Chitraketu had hundreds and thousands of wives he says now hundreds and thousands is a generic figure like there are hundreds and thousands of people if he wanted to specifically he could have said there are hundreds of thousands hundred into thousand but he doesn't say that so the point is that in some cases if somebody finds certain literal numbers very difficult to accept then that needn't be seen as a as a block for assimilating the essential lesson so yes in fact Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also say that one place that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that the great poets have glorified Krishna using various Alankaras using various various rhetorical devices or figures of speech and there he says one is metaphors and other is Atishoyakti Atishoyakti is hyperbolts so exaggerations so there could be some aspects which are rhetorical expressions of greatness now some people may say this is God's inconceivable ability and he can do anything well there is no God directly involved in the past tense of Chitra Ketu so it could be that somehow God acted over there the divine supreme acted over there but it could be that there is a possibility this could be a explanation this could just be a poetic point so everything now we are not saying that everything is a poetic exaggeration we can't dismiss away a lot of scripture in that but there is a possibility that can also be taken into account any thought in this? no I also have read that in the where poets do take what's it called poetic licence to describe something so this is one way where we can sort of adjust at least mentally these descriptions of huge mountains or the fantastic number of wives somebody has and not go into the nitty gritty of how their palaces were constructed and how did he know their names or so on and so forth in fact Bhaktivinod Thakur takes this approach to many aspects of the Bhagavatam he has written a book called the Krishna Samhita and it was a controversial book at his times I don't think we have discussed this also till now Krishna Samhita the book has been mentioned the three levels of explanation no not so much he talks about how basically he was living at a time when Bengal renaissance was going on and there was a lot of scepticism about the books of in our tradition especially the mythological aspect, the supernatural aspect so one way he navigated it was by saying that yes there is a literal understanding and beyond that so he redefines the words Kanishta, Madhyama and Uttama so those who stick to literal understanding he says they are Kanishta and there are Madhyama who look for some kind of rational or universal understanding in it and from their perspective he talks about two aspects of the Bhagavatam the cosmology and the chronology that means at that time the idea that Kaliyuga is so long and Satyuga is so long and this is so long that seemed unbelievable to many people that the cosmic ages could go on for so long because at that time still how old the earth has been that was also a matter of debate so he tried to give he gave some rational explanation for that saying that okay this could be these figures somebody might not take them literally similarly some of the description of the Bhagavatam in the fifth canto he said that for example the description of hell so he has made the point that the essential principle is that we are accountable for our actions the specifics of how, which action how we are accountable for that can vary from person to person and he says that these could be poetic creations now Bhaktivinoda Thakur doesn't repeat that understanding in any of his other books and my understanding is that he is not questioning whether the Bhagavatam is right or not in giving these descriptions but he is not what he is doing is he is creating space for people who can't accept these aspects of the Bhagavatam to still proceed towards the essential message of the Bhagavatam which is the message of bhakti and of transcendental love so there are we need to see that what is contextual to the Bhagavatam or what is not central to the core message of the Bhagavatam doesn't obstruct people from getting to its central message and Prabhupada also has this approach on several occasions so for example, Prabhupada when he was asked that there are some descriptions of how Maharaj Ugrasen had a large number of bodyguards and some devotees asked Prabhupada when we talk with the scholars that he had that Ugrasen had a large number of bodyguards so how, they start laughing, how is it possible Dwarka is such a small place how can so many people live over there so then Prabhupada could have said that for God anything is possible but Prabhupada did not take that approach he said that among all the sections in the Bhagavatam was that the only thing you found to speak with the scholars so that means that his focus was on what is most important you present that and is something which is less important and that is obstructing us then obstructing some people from coming to Krishna then we don't have to make that as a core test of faith so here I try to see and look at the principle of Anukulyasya Sankalpapati Kulyasya Varjanam except what is favourable and what is unfavourable so what is favourable that is a favourable thing is that people understand about Krishna and become attracted to Krishna and raise their consciousness what is unfavourable some aspects of the Bhagavatam which are difficult to understand if they are unfavourable then keep them at distance we don't reject them but it is when people hear fiction or watch fiction it is said that there is something called suspension of disbelief so there could be I don't necessarily accept it I don't necessarily reject it but I suspend my sceptical side over here and I look for what is the essential point so there is something like that also could be done and in some ways Prabhupada also recommends this approach twice in the Bhagavatam as far as I have seen one is in the first canto where he says when Krishna comes from Hastinapur to Dwaraka and the path is given by which he comes and the purpose some geologists try to find out exact path which Krishna took and he says that is quite difficult because the surface of the earth keeps changing as far as we are concerned we are happy that Krishna has reached the destination Krishna has reached Dwaraka and is going to perform pastimes over there so that's one example any thoughts on this? No, I also had read the same paragraph and I remember that and another is even more core Prabhupada talks about the Rastila and he says that if you read the Rastila the purpose of the Rastila is that you become free from sensual desire that's the falashruti which the Rastila gives but if that doesn't happen to you then Prabhupada says don't read it don't read it right now that means we have to look at the purpose of raising our consciousness and see if reading a particular section is helping us or not if not then we can keep it as they say keep it in the ballpark car park keep it parked for some time and move onwards so that's the we could say the miraculous aspect to it now this took a lot of time unexpectedly so we have now the entertainment aspect and the enlightenment aspect should we just quickly complete it or should we take it to another session we'll take another session because this is more detail we have even those of our listeners can also understand where exactly we are and what point we are trying to drive yes so any general thoughts on what we discussed till now we can just have a quick calculation we'll take the next two parts next discussion so if we discuss a six part of study of mythology there is the ethical there is the historical then there is the metaphorical can we have a visual next time before we begin can we have a visual of the six then there is the so today what we discussed was the miraculous or the supernatural and then next time we'll discuss the entertaining and the enlightening aspect of it so now within the miraculous we discussed broadly the miracles which god has performed directly miracles are not against science they are above science because there is the laws of nature which are violated by miracles how do they where do the laws of nature themselves come from so we could say a more rational explanation is that the laws of nature come from a lawmaker and that lawmaker could suspend it temporarily and beyond that so that is directly what god does then we discussed about how some beings seem to have abilities which ordinary beings in our experience don't have so we discussed that could be from a previous life that could be the beings are coming from a higher level of reality or those beings may have got some powers which are mystic powers and the essence of mystic powers is see science isn't just studying material reality it actually studies only physical reality within the material reality only so whereas we understand there is a mind also and the mind can exert influences over matter in a way that the laws of physics may not be able to explain and with respect to that we discussed about the the some experiments generate another experiments and then we talked about the dimensions of physical objects or of the universal dimensions so physical objects if they have very big dimensions then it could be because we are perceiving them in a different way there could be multiple levels of access like to a computer or to a high security building so the cosmos can also have multiple levels of access therefore what we perceive and what others perceive can be different and lastly we conclude by discussing Bhaktivinoda Thakur's approach to the chronology and the cosmology of the Bhagavatam, he said that there is a literal, there is a rational but then there is a transcendental, the transcendental part we will discuss later in the next session but the rational aspect is that ok if this seems too difficult then don't obsess over it the important thing is that you move ahead beyond these descriptions to the essential message of the Bhagavatam the essential message is that we become attracted to Krishna and we develop, raise our consciousness so certain details are obstructing us in that then we can temporarily put them aside suspend this belief and move toward the core message ok so yeah just one last point that this thing of access if we go deeper into this model of how somebody is allowed or denied access when we bring the three modes into question then it becomes a very rigid kind of a thing that somebody fit predominance of the mode of ignorance will certainly not be allowed in certain sections of the cosmos somebody with passion will not be allowed and somebody with predominantly in the mode of goodness will only be allowed so here there is no question of belief or disbelief either you are in or you are not allowed in and why you are not allowed in because of your choice of getting, clinging to one particular mode combination so here that is another aspect I think let's discuss about this enlightening aspect and discuss about the modes how one's consciousness shapes one's perception yeah correct thank you for that comment like for example today the United States government if somebody has associated with a particular group which the government feels is dangerous for homeland security if you have visited a certain country which they feel that you should not be doing that and they say we have the right to not allow you and even if you have a visa, even if you land at the airport they might send you back so access given, access denied is now such a part of our daily news and it is being exercised by governments that's true, that's a very good example it's really one for all of us because immigration can be an anxiety for everyone even if you visit a social media site, that will depend upon you being allowed to enter a country or not it has become to that level now, that's true every, even newspapers have their members only area you can read some articles free but some articles you can't read free, yeah it's a good point, yeah, so access is a universal concept thank you very much thank you, Hare Krishna.