Finding guidance in Prabhupada’s books, The Monk’s Podcast 158 with Krishna Dharma P & Chintamani Dharma M

Podcast: Summary podcast: Video:

Thank you very much for joining today.

Again for the Wong's podcast. Thank you for having us. Hi Krishna.

Thank you for allowing us to be here. Thank you very much. Today, I thought we could discuss about, we'll build on the topic of independent thoughtfulness that we had discussed.

Then we could talk about the topic of guidance. That as devotees practise their spiritual life, often they need guidance. So, how can that need for guidance be addressed? So, we could discuss that broadly today, if you're okay with that.

Yeah. Wonderful topic. So, technically speaking, we can say that our whole tradition is for providing guidance.

So, it is for, we have the spiritual master and D. V. Chakshu, the spiritual master is supposed to give us, gives us. So, in that sense, that is the traditional arrangement for providing guidance. Now, how does that translate into devotees lives in a practical sense? Maybe you could explore, both of you had practised for more than four decades, four, five decades.

So, maybe you could share what you have observed, what you have learned and how you see things working. Thank you. Thank you, Prabhu.

I'll say a little something and then invite Shintamani to add whatever she likes. So, your question is, you know, our whole thing, tradition is about accepting the authority of the spiritual master and how does that translate into ISKCON in the current time? How do we get guidance? You know, normally traditionally, one would be guided by his Guru, perhaps in a village setting, there would be some, you know, the family Guru would be there and he would help and guide. But now, it's an institution and it's a little different.

So, how does it work? How do we see that working? And I would start by saying primarily for us in ISKCON, we're talking about Srila Prabhupada. He is our primary authority. I was just recently looking at some statements from the GBC and they say that Srila Prabhupada as the founder and charioteer of ISKCON is the preeminent Guru for all members of ISKCON.

All members of ISKCON for all generations are encouraged to seek shelter of Srila Prabhupada. All members of ISKCON are entitled and encouraged to have a personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada through his books, teaching, service and his ISKCON society. And pursuant to that point, Anuttama Prabhu, who is the Minister of Communications for ISKCON, said this that this GBC statement on Prabhupada's preeminent position is part of an ongoing effort to better educate ISKCON devotees about Srila Prabhupada's unique stature and contributions.

Prabhupada taught us that his books would be the law books for the next 10,000 years. During that time, many spiritual leaders and Gurus will come and go within ISKCON. However, Prabhupada will be the founder, Acharya and the preeminent instructing Guru for ISKCON for all times.

It is not that Srila Prabhupada is meant to be a Guru only for his immediate disciples. He is the preeminent spiritual authority for all ISKCON devotees, and that will never change. So we very much endorse that.

For us, it's just a question of how can that be implemented. If Prabhupada is our preeminent authority, then how can we establish that from day one? How can we make that our culture that pervades and that persists within our society? That's really the thrust of our whole thing, really, in terms of the culture that we'd like to see improving Sadhu Sangha and our approach, our whole approach to authority in ISKCON, the Gurus and everything else, starts with Srila Prabhupada, the Uttama Adhikari, pure devotee, Acharya and preeminent authority for all of us. Okay.

Thank you. Yes, go ahead. You want to speak something, then I'll ask something, or how do you want to go ahead? I would be so grateful for a chance to reflect back what my husband said, because I find that sometimes it echoes when we reflect it back.

Swami, in response to Chaitanya Sharma Prabhu's wonderful opening, which is that it is our tradition, the Ashram tradition, to take guidance from the Lord and His representative. How does that translate? How would we like to see that translate into ISKCON today and going forward? And you said, well, the GBC have already have a wonderful resolution in this regard, which we think is on point in every way. According to the GBC's own resolution, and the words of their own communications director or representative, I don't know what the title is, Minister of Communications, Prabhupada is the preeminent of Guru, of not just His direct disciples, but of everyone who comes to ISKCON today, tomorrow, and for as long as ISKCON exists.

And that they are encouraging everyone to take Prabhupada's direct association through his books, through his audios, and through service to him. And they see the role of every other Guru in ISKCON as meant to be supportive of that, that connecting us with Prabhupada's teachings. So you're saying that's our point, that's what we would love to see happen.

We would love to see Prabhupada's preeminent position as the ultimate Shikshi Guru, the ultimate guide. The only question is, how can we ensure this happens? How can we ensure people are actually getting Prabhupada's guidance? And you'd like to talk about that. How can we make sure they actually are getting His guidance? Did I send you correctly? You did, yes.

Thank you. Chaitanya Saramprabhu, did you want to say something? Yeah. Thank you for reflecting that, Mataji, on what Shri Dharmaprabhu said.

now this is, we understand that Prabhupada is the founder Acharya, and he is the prominent, you could say, the preeminent Shiksha Guru. At the same time, this can take us very close to the idea of Prithvik where we don't need any living guide at all. At one level, it is, we are a tradition, then we say, why stop at Prabhupada? We could go to Bhaktivinoda Thakur, we could stop at Jiva Goswami, we could go to Rupa Goswami.

I mean, obviously, we are not going to do that. And when I say Prabhupada is in a strict position, but Prabhupada wouldn't want to ever say that, I am greater than the previous Acharyas. So, there is a living dimension to the tradition and are we undercutting that by saying that Prabhupada is the Guru of everyone? So, maybe this is a different direction, I am taking this question, but that's what, given that particular statement, we do need living guides, don't we? What are your thoughts about that? Okay, thank you Prabhu.

You are saying, okay, so if we emphasise Srila Prabhupada as our authority, then what about the element of the living guide? After all, there are so many great Acharyas that we could go directly to. Why not Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or his spiritual master or Lord Chaitanya, the six Goswamis. So, you are saying that there is a tradition of accepting an authority, a living authority in your life.

So, could that be undermined by this stress on the importance of taking shelter and direct guidance through the books of Srila Prabhupada? I understand. Yeah? And in response to that I would say, yes, of course, you know, we want and it would be wonderful if we're able to find someone who can actually help us in our spiritual life. But this raises questions for me.

When does that, when should we find that person? How should we find that person? What sort of guidance should that person give us? All we're saying is, let that develop organically and in time. But first of all, let's establish the foundation. The foundational Shiksha Guru is Srila Prabhupada.

So let's form my relationship with him. And then by, you know, training devotees how to use their intelligence, how to become Shastra Chakras from Srila Prabhupada, from hearing Srila Prabhupada, they in time will be able to make some kind of discernment as to who can be their guidance or who can help them and how that kind of help is required. You know, what sort of help do we need? You know, we have ideas about that also, you know, the kind of guidance that the spiritual masters etc.

in ISKCON should be giving. But before we get to that point, let's first of all establish our basic relationship with Srila Prabhupada. Okay.

So what, if I understand right, it's like Srila Prabhupada is our guide so that we can find a guide also. Is that what you're saying? Yes. First of all, Srila Prabhupada, let's equip our intelligence, our discrimination, our critical faculty so that we can make a choice.

Because Shastra tells us that we have to be discriminatory. We have to test how we're going to do that. In fact, you know, in terms of Bhakti, it comes some way down the line that you make that decision.

First of all, there's Sadhu Sangha. You get your initial faith, then you Sadhu Sangha, and then Vajna Kriya. There's another stage that comes after that, and it's in that third stage that the process of Diksha should be occurring, when you've actually developed a little bit of knowledge and understanding.

You know, Srila Prabhupada used to say, how can you buy gold if you don't know what gold looks like? You're going to be given false gold. If you don't have any idea how to test gold, what is actually gold, someone will come to you with false gold. Oh, thank you.

I'll take that. Here's all my money. Next thing you know, you've been swindled.

So, first of all, yes, as you say, let's associate with Srila Prabhupada, Sadhu Sangha, and then get later to that point. There's no immediate rush for that. Okay.

And if I understand right, what you're saying is, Madan, you can also respond to this if you want to. That once, in one sense, right from the beginning, there is the onus for decision-making is not outsourced to some other authority, but the onus for decision-making is placed on the devotee with the wisdom that they have learned from Prabhupada. You've understood.

Thank you, Prabhu. I've let my wife say something. First of all, Shaitani Sharmaputra, Prabhupada says, wisdom is truth put succinctly.

And I love the way that you capture the essence of what we're trying to say in such a succinct way that, you know, it's not that we're saying no gurus, it's we're saying, Prabhupada is a preeminent guru, that the first training is to understand his books, assimilate his books, and from that we get the intelligence with which to perform our God-given responsibility, which is to make correct choices and seek correct guidance, rather than having that correct guidance pre-selected for us. I think that's the way, you know, you put it much more succinctly than me, but I just wanted to thank you for that, you really did capture it. If I was to add anything, I just want to add some evidences to support this, you know, it's like at the end of the day, if we do not, there is a verse, that if we don't follow the Pantaratric Vidhi, then everything we do will simply become a trouble in society.

Maybe you can help, I'm terrible with the Sanskrit verses, I remember the concepts, but you know the verse I'm speaking about. So if we don't follow the previous Acharyas and the statements of Shastra, then our decision-making will create problems. So let's see what our previous Acharya says, it's not just what the GBC says, on the point about you have to first become a little intelligent, Prabhupada says this in a lecture, suppose you have to purchase some gold or jewels, this is an lecture he gave in New York in 66.

He says, suppose you have to purchase some gold or jewels, if you do not know where to purchase, if you go to a grocery shop and purchase a jewel, then you'll be cheated. If you go to a grocer and ask, can you sell me a diamond, he will understand, here is a fool, let me send him something else for a diamond, he can charge anything. When you come home your relatives will ask, what have you bought? This is a diamond, I bought it at a grocery shop.

Trying to find a spiritual master in that way will not do. You have to become a little intelligent, because without being intelligent, no one can make any spiritual progress. Please bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this.

So the GBC's current policies are kind of assuming because we're an international society, the traditional structural ways of doing things won't work. We have to come up with a new way. We will pre-select who is a guide, who is an authority.

And that pre-selection is based on the presumption that the prospective disciples do not have sufficient intelligence to make that selection for themselves. Now scripture and Prabhupāda say no, first make them a little intelligent. Make them intelligent enough that they don't need your pre-selection process.

You know, why do we do this? Every time my husband speaks to a member who's of the view, we must make the pre-selection, they think it will be madness. People will select anybody. They will select foolishly.

But that's because ISKCON is not doing its job in helping people to become a little intelligent. That's ISKCON's job. It's our duty to help people become śāstra-checked and independently thoughtful.

And it's not just the GBC that says the way to do that is by going to Prabhupāda's books. It's Prabhupāda himself. In so many places Prabhupāda says, here's a lecture in 1972.

Before you give that quote, can I just make a point of clarification? Because I know this is going to be like, you know, people are hearing this from, you know, the tiers of authority that they will immediately think, hang on a second, that's not correct. Because you used the word select, pre-select. Now, they're always at pains to point out to me that no, we're not selecting anyone.

You know, you select, we approve. And we're simply doing this approval and no objection. We're not, you know, so I want to make that distinction because that will be an objection.

But I also just quickly will add, and let you carry on, because I don't want to interrupt you. I just thought I was going to make that point so that people who are listening realise that we are aware of the fact that GBC are not actually selecting anyone. But that is the net effect of the current way things work.

Because once they have approved someone, they're added to a list, they're given the title ISKCON Guru. In all media, in external media, they're called ISKCON Guru. So they become a separate, distinct person who's effectively been appointed to the role of Guru.

So, as I was saying earlier on, when people come, you know, they don't understand much at all. They just know, here are the Gurus. So they have effectively been selected in one sense.

Although, you know, how that came about initially is another thing. But it's not a direct, it's not like they have looked among all the devotees and said, this one, this one, this one, and this one will be Gurus. But that's how it kind of works, you know, in the eyes of the general devotees.

So I just wanted to add that. So you're saying it's incorrect when I say they pre-select, they don't. They say we select, they approve.

It turns out, in the end, in the eyes of newcomers, it looks like a pre-selected Guru. It looks that way, yeah. I did want to go on my actual train of thought, but whatever is said, Swami, like I know that there are hundreds of disciples waiting to take initiation from one of your Godbrothers, Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, a sannyasi, and he's qualified to be given sannyas too.

He's qualified to be an international travelling creature, but for some reason, for some, for some subjective reason, they're not giving permission. So they're not giving approvals. They select in a very subjective way who they will give approval to.

So whatever is said, it doesn't work exactly the way they say. It seems very subjective and it's like without any rhyme or reason, but certainly not a rhyme or reason which is publicly discussed how they give their approval. Would you mind if I return to the actual point I was making? My actual point is that the correct shastric way to select is that to help the prospective disciple first become a little intelligent.

I know that I saw an interview with Deva Madhava and where Namraz raised the point, well, if you let the disciples select, then they'll select all kinds of, you know, inappropriate people, unqualified people. And Deva Madhava made such a good point, just on this point. But right now, there's so many unqualified disciples.

They're unqualified because they were not capable of making their own decision. In that sense, we're unqualified. We're assuming the disqualification on the part of the disciple, and we institutionalise disqualification on the part of the disciple.

We ensure the disciples don't develop the sufficient intelligence to make this very important decision for themselves. It's not that we're saying stop guru disciples, we're just saying the first part of the induction, when someone comes with Adho Shraddha, what is the next step? The next step is Sadhu Sangha. Sadhu Sangha has no rank or hierarchy.

It's Sadhus. We discuss Prahlad's books. And because there's no like, oh, you're a senior, you're the guru, therefore, I can't have a different opinion to you, we're allowed to learn to think for ourselves in that association of Sadhus, who train us how to think through the eyes of scripture, to support what we're saying with scripture, to speak nicely in 1715.

This is the way we should be trained. And I'll just tell you how the Gita says we should be trained. He says, the Gita says, Bhagavad Gita 1715.

The process of speaking in spiritual circles is to say something upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying. At the same time, such talk should be very pleasurable to the ear.

By such discussions, one may derive the highest benefit and elevate human society. So that's Sadhusangha. So I was reading a quote from Prabhupada.

He says, I'm therefore so much labouring hard that we, before my leaving this body, I may give you some books you can enjoy after my death. So utilise it. Utilise it.

Read every shloka nicely. Try to understand the meaning. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Nityam bhagavata sevaya. That is our mission. So our humble suggestion is let's put Sadhusangha back where it's meant to be.

It's meant to be between Adho Shraddha and and Bhajanakriya. Initiation shouldn't take place until somewhere mid-Bhajanakriya when the disciple, prospective disciple is already quite intelligent and shastrically informed and of good behaviour. Then initiation is suitable.

So if we just immediately induct people into initiation, we're inducting people who are not suitable yet. They're not trained sufficiently. They've missed out the crucial point of Sadhusangha.

So we would like to see ISKCON's culture begin to like when I joined, kirtan wasn't a part of ISKCON's culture. It was all book distribution. Get out there and do big.

That was our sole thing. Since I've joined, the culture has developed and evolved and now this kirtan is like the main, the book distribution and kirtan. Kirtan is big.

But we are still leaving out the most important and fundamental part of the culture of Shravanam and Kirtan is to discuss the teachings of our Founder Acharya, Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatam. Chapter 2, Chapter 2, Text 30 in the purport, Prophet says, when we speak about hearing and chanting, we don't just mean hearing and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. We also mean hearing and discussing books like Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatam.

And those discussions should be done according to the principles of Vada. Prophet says in Canto 3, Chapter 3, Text 6 unless and until we're trained in the culture of good association, we cannot become good. So if we just discuss without citing shastra, adhanam in a text, putting each other down, we're not going to transform.

We have to be trained in the culture of good sadhu-sangha, how to discuss Prophet's books in a pleasant way, always supporting our points with shastra. Then we'll become a little intelligent. Then entering into a guru-disciple relationship will happen without the need for ISKCON legislation.

It will happen in a way where both the disciple and the guru feel actually fulfilled in their relationships. So that was a huge soundbite, but I just wanted to get my point in. Can I reflect that back, Chaitanya Sarana, if I can catch what you said.

You began by quoting this verse from Prabhupada's lecture, a section where he spoke about someone going to the grocery store, asking for a diamond. If you want gold or diamonds, then you need to know where to go and what you're looking for and how to test. If someone walks into the grocery store and says, I'd like to buy a diamond, the man's going to say, oh, here's a full.

Excellent. Sell him a piece of glass and charge him what he likes. You're saying that people have to be educated.

Devotees, when they come, they come with shraddha and they need sadhu-sangha in order to educate them so that they can get that discrimination and they don't make a foolish choice. Or they don't make a choice based on some flimsy criteria, some sentiment or something. And you said that the way things work at the moment in ISKCON is that the GVC are effectively selecting.

I made the point already about literally speaking, they're not doing that. But as far as everyone's concerned, they have done that. We have our list of gurus and nine out of ten of new devotees who come into the temple immediately think, oh, I just have to choose one of these existing gurus.

Very rarely is it otherwise. And you said that as far as selection goes, there are quite some devotees who want to become existing gurus who have disciples approaching them, potential disciples approaching them. You gave the example of Chaitanya Trampuri's godbrother who is currently not being allowed to accept disciples for no particular reason that we can understand.

Two of his godbrothers. One of your godbrothers is the only devotee in ISKCON who's got the Bhakti Vaibhava. Is Bhakti Vaibhava the highest qualification? Bhakti Vedanta.

Bhakti Vedanta. He's the only one who's taken the Bhakti Vedanta. Yeah, he's got that.

And I know people who want to take initiation from him. Who knows why? The answer is no. God knows why.

I mean, even in terms of etiquette, both of these devotees, their initiating spiritual masters are no longer on the planet, even, in both cases. His godbrothers? Yeah. Yeah, anyway.

His godbrother, yeah. But anyway, they're not, for some reason or another, they're not being allowed to do that. So there is an effective selection taking place, or you know, they're certainly controlling it.

And devotees, therefore, are being led in certain directions towards certain individuals, rather than having their intelligence trained, their shastric knowledge developed. They become shastrachakshus, and then they can see for themselves who is qualified, who isn't, and in due course of time make a well-informed decision. I think that's what you were saying.

Did I miss anything? Would you like to add anything? Yeah, okay. Okay, so. Did you want to say anything, Chetan, Prabhu? Yeah, quite a lot, if you don't mind.

You know, beyond the specifics of who is being allowed and not, and yes, there could be greater rationality, transparency in the process. I don't want to get into the specifics of particular individuals, because we don't know what all is going on in particular cases. But in terms of principle, I'm not really sure that the metaphor of the gold, what you used, would apply in its entirety in this situation.

I would like to offer another metaphor. Now, Prabhupada is talking about that we have to know something about a Guru. That is true.

And it's obvious that a devotee who is well-educated, who has learned some philosophy, they will be learning something and moving forward. You talked about the nine stages of bhakti as given by Rupa Goswami. Now, if you look at the 64 elements of bhakti, same Rupa Goswami, same book, he says, So, he says the first element, Adau, that's a very clear word, Adau.

So, where earlier is the word Adau Shraddha, elsewhere it is Adau Guru Padashraya. So, for the nine stages, it begins with Shraddha. For the 64 elements, it begins with Guru Padashraya.

And then the next is Saddharma Guru Picha, that asks questions about the nature of reality from the Guru. So, I'm not sure whether the scriptural evidence is as unambiguously supportive of what you are saying essentially. But even from the metaphor, Prabhupada did create organisation and he wanted that organisation to have some level of coherent structure.

He could say, even when he was there, he gave power to the government body commission and it's like I'm not sure whether you've made the difference between selection and approval in terms of devotees gaining guidance or devotees learning to get whatever they need or the guidance they need, the wisdom they need inside and for going ahead in their lives. I'm not sure whether the pre- selection or the pre- approval of the Gurus is the biggest obstacle because, just to take another example from if we have an orphan child and they want to they have to decide whom to they are interested in some adoptive parent. Now, does the orphan child go around looking who will be my parent? They certainly have some forum to select but generally among the adoptive parents are chosen by are the adoptive parents the list is approved by the government the child protection services or who all and then among those approved adoptive parents the child can choose one.

So, it's very rare that anybody has absolute freedom in the name of absolute independence or independent thoughtfulness. If you go toward the domain of absolute freedom in which other domain do we actually have that? We don't choose our gender when we are born. We don't choose the nationality where we are born.

So, by fate itself our the domain of our independence is restricted. If you see in the Vedic culture we can't replicate Vedic culture entirely. In the Vedic culture even marriages were arranged and the people who are going to live with each other had had practically no say and that was not just Vedic culture.

I would say it was there everywhere in the world. Now today people have much more say in what they decide and traditionally also it was not that there were a hundred gurus available for people and one was chosen that mostly people broadly what I understand the local priest would be there and the priest would most of the times become the guru of the people or sometimes they were travelling sannyasis. Prabhupada talks about it in the C.C. Parbott.

Two things, either the local priest would become the guru or some travelling sannyasis would be there, they would become the guru but then they would practically not be available at all because they were just travelling. We have the example of Advaitacharya being initiated by Madhavendra Puri but then practically Advaitacharya and Madhavendra never met after that and that's why when Ishwara Puri came there he was very happy. So, my point is that in the tradition also now whether a particular body is pre-selecting a set of teachers from whom we choose or not, well if the body is not going to do it, nature itself does it, the ways of nature does it.

Nobody has in their nobody in their real life has complete independence. So, if I understand why we brought on this discussion was that you're talking about the ethos of devotees learning to think and choose responsibly. So, now that is something which is, I definitely agree we last time discussed about the independent thoughtfulness as a very important aspect of a devotee's life but I'm not really sure whether the, whether a person has, chooses a guru among a pre-existing panel of approved gurus and whether a person has to choose a guru from every single devotee within ISKCON would that really make that huge a difference in terms of devotees learning responsibility.

That is something which individuals have to learn and if so maybe we could focus on that aspect of how devotees could be trained in independent responsibility and the issue of gurus being approved, that is, gurus whether they're approved or selected after being approved or selected without any institutional that's the issue in itself but maybe that could be, we could discuss it separately at some other time because right now if you consider this podcast it's primarily being heard by average devotees and they don't have the the authority to change the existing system so if we are considering what are the needs of devotees right now and how could those needs be addressed so is it okay if we discuss that and then take the discussion in that direction? Would you mind if I actually understood you and responded, I know my husband is senior to me but because I felt that you were responding to something I realised it. Would you mind if I understood you and responded? Yes, please, please. Thank you very much.

So you were saying that the example Prabhupada gives of the grocery shop is not really applicable. It's the jewellery shop and the kind of like sticking on the point of pre-selection that's not necessarily helpful you know that was going on in Vedic times anyway that every village had its pre-selected Brahmin guru or the person who was recognised as a guru and even if we want to argue that point it's not helpful for devotees in general because they don't have the authority to change the way things are so why go on about something which is not within our scope of influence it's outside of our scope of influence so can we stop harping on about that and focus more on how we can how devotees can be trained to become more personally responsible. Yes.

Would you mind if I made some responses to that? Yeah, okay. Certainly. So the reason I quoted Prabhupada's grocery shop is because the last thing he says without being intelligent no one can make any spiritual progress it's that that we have to cultivate when a new person comes with some other shraddha the responsibility of ISKCON and all of ISKCON's preachers temple presidents and everyone else who's working for the preaching effort is to assist that newcomer to come and become a little spiritually intelligent and that is the reason why the Sadhu Sangha is there.

Sadhu Sangha is for that. Sadhu Sangha is not just coming together and doing kirtan. Sadhu Sangha is coming together and allowing devotees to think and teaching them how to think through the eyes of scripture.

The only reason I brought in the pre-selection thing is that that pre-selection really if the Sadhu Sangha is improved I don't mind, I don't feel as if I have the answers to all ISKCON's questions. I'm just saying bring that Sadhu Sangha in properly. If that Sadhu Sangha is brought in properly the disciple will even make correct choices for themselves amongst the pre-selected gurus if necessary.

It doesn't matter. But just train them to become a little intelligent. Train them how to select the whole.

Let's fix on that. Let's train the devotees not just how to select but how to think. You know all the decisions in our lives are not around guru.

Some of the decisions in our lives are around, you know, what is the best ashram for me? You know, if I'm in the Grihastha ashram how should I deal with my family? How should I deal at work? If I'm in the Brahmacharya renounced ashram how should I interact? To answer any question in our life we need to be a little scripturally intelligent. We need to be able to make our decisions through the eyes of scripture. There isn't going to be someone sitting there next to us always telling us the right answer.

We need to train devotees to think for themselves through the eyes of scripture. That's all we're proposing and that is the function of Sadhu Sangha. To train devotees like Prophet wrote in a letter to Trivuvana now I want all of my devotees to be reading my books more and discussing them from different perspectives.

Become practised in this. Right now if we do Sadhu Sangha it's one perspective. You're a senior devotee I hear from you.

I do what I think. Would you tell me to think and that's finished. No.

Sadhu Sangha is different from Guru Sangha. Sadhu Sangha means I haven't yet accepted you as Guru. I can think for myself.

I can say Chaitanya Charanpura that's an interesting point but I see it differently and you're allowing me to learn to think for myself and that element is missing. We go immediately from newcomer to Guru Sangha and in Guru Sangha there isn't room for thinking for yourself. That is just some barter.

Now accept whatever you say I accept. You say jump, I jump. You say this is a rope, I say it's a rope.

But there is meant to be a process before that Sadhu Sangha where you can say this is a rope and I can say well it doesn't look like a rope to me. It looks like a spade. Convince me it's a rope.

Let me think for myself. How could you think? And that, we need to bring that into Iskcon. Just like we brought Kirtan in.

We only used that Upadishu and now we have Upadishu and Kirtan. Let's bring in the culture of proper discussion of thought plus thoughts. Where everyone is participating and learning to think for themselves.

Speaking kindly and respectfully to each other and supporting their points with Shastric statements. Not just I think in my opinion because I said so. Thank you Mataji.

I wanted to capture, well my wife missed a few things that you said which I wanted to capture but then I think I should understand her as well. I can start with you. You also cited, because we've said Adho Shraddha Tatha Sarasana etc.

And you said well also Rupa Goswami said Adho Guru Pradashraya. The first thing is to accept the Guru. And you know here we should then question him.

And you said that is something which goes on in ISKCON. You don't necessarily think that that has to be a problem even if the spiritual master is not available. You cited the example of Madhavendra Puri and Ishwara Puri.

And having taken initiation, Ishwara Puri took initiation and never really saw his Guru again for a long time. Didn't really get much association. So you're saying does that have to be a problem? Does that have to be an impediment to what we're saying, the Sadhu Sangha? If there is these Gurus and devotees come and they choose one and then he's not in the picture, they can still carry on.

And that's what I think you were saying, right? They can still get Sadhu Sangha and what we're suggesting can take place. Did I understand you? Yeah. Thank you.

Shantamani was really stressing the importance of that element, of the Sadhu Sangha element. She was saying maybe as far as the Guru situation goes, fine. We don't have to get into that and talk about whether there should be approved Gurus or not.

But what there has to be is Sadhu Sangha. This process of coming together as peers, discussing the philosophy and learning how to use our intelligence, our discernment based on Shastra. Not that we come in and initially there's a culture where we take a Guru and then it's like there's no scope really for our questioning, for our using our own intelligence, having our own perspectives.

Like Prabhupada said, learn how to study my books and see them from different angles, different perspectives, different lights. But you're not going to be able to do that if you've already accepted a spiritual master and he's telling you his lights, his perspective. They have to become your perspective.

So there isn't a lot of scope for that. I think that was what my wife was saying. Did I understand you? Yes.

Okay. I just want to add one thing as regards I totally agree with what my wife's saying of course. We're together in this, that we're trying to implement this idea of Vada discussions of trying to understand what is the truth and using our intelligence being taught how to think not what to think.

I just wanted to read one thing if I may because in terms of the situation that we have in ISKCON at the moment. Now the GBC detected that there may be a problem with their system with the fact that when devotees come the first thing they think about is let me accept a guru. So they asked the Shastra Advisory Committee to look into it.

And this is what they had to say. Shrila Prabhupada states that it is the responsibility of the prospective disciples to examine and test their prospective guru prior to initiation. Given that the GBC gives tacit approval to gurus via their no objection procedure it could be that the prospective disciples desire to examine their prospective guru prior to initiation is compromised.

Although there are many glorious descriptions of the qualities of guru in Shastra it is the duty of prospective disciples to not automatically assume those qualities are possessed by all ISKCON gurus. Rather they should objectively examine their prospective guru. There is prima facie evidence that suggests that prospective disciples do not take this responsibility seriously.

Therefore we request the Shastra Advisory Council to research the balance between the responsibility of ISKCON to protect its members from unqualified gurus and the duty of the prospective disciples to give proper attention to the study of it. So, you know, what they're effectively saying is, yes, there is a problem. You know, that devotees jump into these relationships very quickly based on the fact that these spiritual masters are being presented as authorised persons.

And we feel that does interfere with this, you know, culture, trying to initiate a culture of Sadhu Sangha. We do think that that creates a bit of a problem. But, you know, as you say, we can't solve that problem.

It's not really within our scope of influence as my wife was saying. But what is in our scope of influence is to implement a process where devotees are associating with Prabhupada deeply, discussing things nicely together as peers, using their intelligence, bringing up their doubts, raising their questions. And this Saddharma Prachar can take place even before you accepted a guru.

That can take place through this process of discussing Prabhupada's books. Your questions come up as a natural course. And a do-guru padashraya, that can be Prabhupada, the first guru you accept.

It is Prabhupada for all of us. Let's face it. What brings us to ISKCON? His books.

You know, so at that point, that is that a do-guru padashraya. That is the acceptance of the authority right from the beginning. It's Srila Prabhupada.

And then we're trying to find someone who represents him. So, you know, we're just saying let's get that in place fundamentally, let devotees cultivate their intelligence, and then they choose who they like in due course of time when they're qualified to do so. Yes.

I think this makes sense. So what overall you're saying is there is a problem where devotees unthinkingly choose a spiritual master. And I'm also part of the Shastric Advisory Council.

Of course, that paper was done before I had joined the body. And I have read that paper. I recognise my understanding from what I've observed a little bit whenever I've travelled is that it's a the disciples are not really encouraged to think too much about the spiritual master, about whom to choose as the spiritual master.

And that is I would say again, the reason is not so much that in my practical observation, it is not so much because the GBC has appointed a particular set of gurus. It is more because a particular guru's disciples are prominent in a particular project and they expect whoever joins that temple or whoever comes to that temple to take initiation from their spiritual master. So that is a practical issue.

So if a particular spiritual master's disciples are leaders in the management or leaders in the preaching in a particular temple, then often they are preaching, but in the sense they are preaching not just for people to come to the Krishna Consciousness Movement. They are also preaching to get people to come to the, come to their spiritual master. So I think, so that's a, that is maybe something which is training is required for the preachers that you are preaching, you are preaching to get people to take to Krishna Consciousness not to take initiation from your spiritual master.

And that is happening that could also be a, that could not be done in that direction. But what Mataji you mentioned is that Sadhu Sangha and Diksha do separate things. And if we train devotees in Sadhu Sangha, then they will even if there is a, there is a, however, from wherever they get the, they choose, however they choose the spiritual master, they will choose responsibly.

So maybe we could go to this point that how, what would it mean Sadhu Sangha that Sadhu Sangha is provided nicely. You mentioned one point is Sadhu Sangha is not so hierarchical. It is more, it is more, more reciprocal rather than hierarchical.

So could you elaborate on what good Sadhu Sangha would mean in this context? Thank you for Are you addressing me? Yes. First of all, thank you for your lovely question. Before I respond to that question, would you mind if I just go back a little bit to so far our conversation has been most like Sadhu Sangha's point of Diksha.

Everything is about how to choose Diksha. And the point I made earlier that I was first not lost completely in the ether, is that that's not the only decision we have to make in life. The whole topic of your talk, of our conversation is how devotees need guidance.

Why do we even take Diksha? Because we're perplexed. You know, just like Arjuna has so many perplexities. Should I fight or not? Should I not fight? How do I deal with this problem? How do I, which direction what choices do I make in my life? So we're hoping Diksha will help us make those decisions.

But, as you said earlier, sometimes it's very rare to see our Guru and he may not be able to make those choices for every one of his disciples. You know, and if he does, he doesn't know the situation. So the real guidance we talk about is not just guidance how to take Diksha.

That's very important. But we have to do Sadhu Sangha so that we become intelligent enough to take guidance from Shastra how to solve all the different perplexities of our lives. Because often times when we're faced with a perplexity, we're not going to have our Diksha Guru or our mentor or our temple president sitting next to us saying, do this, do that.

But we have to know how to make decisions based on the guidance of Shastra. Shastra is the key thing. So Sadhu Sangha is not just for making us intelligent enough to choose a Guru.

Sadhu Sangha is for helping us become independently thoughtful, Shastra chakshus, so that we can confidently make decisions to solve the many, many different problems that we face in life. I just wanted to make that. It's not all about who I accept Guru from.

It's how do I solve the problems of my life. For that we need Sadhu Sangha and we need to become Shastra chakshus and independently thoughtful. I just wanted to make that one point before I go.

Can I capture that point? I don't want to respond. I just want to make sure that it is emphasised that you're saying that we're talking about Sadhu Sangha and developing good Shastric vision and knowledge, intelligence, everything, so that we can make a good choice of Guru. Okay, that's important, but it's not everything.

And anyway, why do we want Guru? What is it all about? Because we want guidance in our life, because we're perplexed. Arjuna has reached that point of perplexity. He doesn't know what to do, which way to turn.

So he behoves one to accept a spiritual master at that point, Prabhupada says. Okay. But then the spiritual master is supposed to get you out of those perplexities.

And you're saying the thing is that, and as Chaitanya also pointed out, he may not be there to do that. And the mentor may not be there. In any event, the mentor is not the person you have selected as your spiritual master, necessarily.

So you don't really have someone who can possibly always tell you what you have to do. And we're constantly faced with important life decisions and crises and perplexities and all kinds of things. So what you're saying is that really the process of Sadhu Sangha is to equip us with the buddhi, with the buddhi yoga, with the intelligence that we can ourselves tackle these things in our life.

We're not constantly, ah, what do I do now? You know, trying to ask someone else and get prescriptive advice. We're able to actually deal with it ourselves by associating with Srila Prabhupada, by studying and discussing, especially discussing his books. And in the context of that, we'll find ourselves the dharmi buddhi yoga.

Krishna gives us the intelligence by which we're able to deal with everything that we need to. And it's not just, we're struggling all the time and we're dependent. You know, like the child, constantly dependent on the parent.

You know, we're actually able to make these decisions ourselves. Thank you very much. Do you want to say more? I mean, there's so much, but I'm happy to go back to where Chaitanya Chakraborty was pointed.

He also made an interesting point about the orphan child. I don't know if we, we seem to have lost that one in the mix. I don't know if you wanted us to talk about that, Chaitanya Chakraborty, or are you happy just to carry on? I'm okay.

I mean, I think we are going in a constructive direction now. We could go. So, Sadhu Sangha, Sadhu Sangha is more of, I think you are explaining how Sadhu Sangha is meant to help us, meant to help us become thoughtful, meant to help us become insightful enough to deal with life's perplexities.

now, is this something which is, if this is not happening, is this something which is a recent phenomena in the sense that, is this something which happened in the last few, last decade or so? Or was there a different ethos during Prabhupada's time that you observed and things changed after Prabhupada disappeared? Because generally when we, I mean, whatever accounts of Prabhupada's life and devotees' lives we read about, there are, of course, devotees who were leaders and they took a lot of initiative and did adventurous things. But, are you saying that there was an ethos of independent thoughtfulness? Earlier it was lost or the other way you give the example that just as earlier, there was only Buddhist vision but no Kirtan and now Kirtan is being included. So, it's, are you saying that we as a movement have to move toward actualising what is mentioned in Prabhupada's books but was actually not implemented in our movement in a significant way till now? So, you're saying, am I suggesting that there used to be good Sarasangam and we've lost it or there was never good Sarasangam and we have to bring it in? Yeah, something like that.

Even, did I understand you correctly? Yes, yes, yes. Would you like me to say something or my husband? I think you brought the point, I think you can start and of course, Krishnamurthy, you can also. Obviously, I was not present when Prabhupada was explicitly present but just listening to his morning walks, his conversations, reading his books, his letters and his memories, I think Prabhupada did it.

You know, Prabhupada did a lot of Sarasangam on his morning walks, he's discussing back and forth. I remember one devotee saying, I forget his name, Madhudvisa, I think it was Madhudvisa who was in charge of Australia, he was saying that once he was travelling with Prabhupada and Prabhupada sat in the plane with the next one and said, okay, now let's discuss. You be the Mayavadi, I'll be the Vaishnav.

Madhudvisa was, no, I can't. So he said, okay, I'll be the Mayavadi, you be the Vaishnav, let's discuss back and forth, you know. Or whenever Prabhupada would discuss in his room conversations, he'd ask, so what do you think? So Prabhupada was really into this culture of discussing with those who were in direct contact with him.

And as far as I know, he said to those people, now you do as I do. He wanted them to also continue this culture. He says that.

He says that to Satsvarupa Maharaj, he says that in a letter to Hamsadutta Prabhunath Maharaj at the time, he says that to Tribhuvanath, I want you to propagate this culture of discussion from different perspectives. He says that, at least three letters that I know of. And he himself did it.

I think, you know, I mean, I'm not criticising anyone, I could not have done better. There were devotees at most for 10 years by the time Prabhupada left. I think when Prabhupada left, it stopped and it went to collecting money.

I mean, you can say book distribution, but I know for many years I was on so-called book distribution and mostly the sticker distribution and collecting money. Or record distribution, or hat distribution, or perfume distribution. It was really about collecting money.

And Escon has moved on from that and now through the efforts of great book distribution generals like Vaisheshika Prabhu is actually boss. It's not stickers. And through the input of other great devotees like Indra Prabhu, Sachinandan Swami, your own Guru Maharaj, now we do a little bit more Harinam Kirtan as well.

But I do believe that we have failed to bring back the culture that Prabhupada very much propagated, and he called it Istighosti, of discussing his books right there. And I feel that is to the detriment of our movement, and to the detriment of each individual within our movement. Because you know, for only so long does a devotee suppress his thinking.

Because he's never been trained to think through the eyes of scripture. When he does start thinking, when he does feel dissatisfied, or whatever, he starts speculating. No, when they come, when someone comes and they're still submissive and they're still like, oh, I would like to take your guidance, at that point, before they're dissatisfied or they become speculated or, let's train them to think through the eyes of scripture, but to think.

Let's not train people to be blind followers. Let's train people to think through the eyes of scripture. Prabhupāda did it.

I don't think this happened since Prabhupāda has left. I'm just asking, I mean, it may have, in some places it may have in the temples you were in, but it's not widely practised. And I'm just, I'm just suggesting that, that we bring this back as part of our main cultural aspect.

The keystone to ISKCON's training, when people come in, train them in good sadhu-sangha. So, I think this is important and wherever actually, even I have travelled, whatever little, I don't want to draw on it repeatedly, but what I've seen is, at least to wherever there is a good culture of education, where there are good classes, there are scriptural study courses going on, the community flourishes, devotees are happy, the devotees are eager to go out and share Krishna Bhakti. So, in one sense, it's not just necessary, it helps devotees individually, it helps also the community to grow.

And that sense, it nourishes the, it nourishes preaching. So, you are saying that one way we could understand what is good sadhu-sangha is that after the sadhu-sangha, devotees would be able to take decisions wisely. Krishna Dharmapur, would you like to, you can respond to what Mataji has said earlier and then you can reflect what she has said and you can respond to this, if you like.

What are the characteristics of good sadhu-sangha basically? That would be the broad question that I have at this stage. What are the characteristics? Yeah, well, you asked first of all about is this something which has never been implemented and should it you know, now that its time has come, we need to do that, or was it once there and now its lost and we need to bring it back or what, you know. My wife was saying how of course we weren't present during Prabhupada's time, we came a little bit after that, but from what we have seen and what she has seen that, you know, Sri Prabhupada very much encouraged that.

He was always encouraging devotees to discuss and he would, on his morning walks and in the early days, I was quite close with Mukunda Maharaj for a while, working with him, doing service with him, and he told me how Sri Prabhupada had all the time in the world for his disciples back then. In the beginning they would come, they would sit down and discuss with him as much as they liked. He was completely available.

Of course, things changed when his group grew bigger, naturally. And then the other leaders began to take over and a different culture seemed to be implemented. A culture of do big, collect, you know, which is what we were inducted into when we came.

Certainly we weren't inducted into a culture of hearing, chanting, sadhu-sangha, you know, of associating with Prabhupada's books. In fact, we can tell you anecdotes of how devotees were told that it was Maya to read the books because they were supposed to be going out, doing sagatans, selling them, you know. And to sort of sneak away from the street and read for half an hour was like, hey, what are you doing, Prabhu? You're in Maya, you know.

So that was quite a culture. Absolutely, yes. Absolutely, Prabhu.

I'm not joking. But, you know, collecting money and it was all kinds of paraphernalia. Okay, we don't need to get into that.

But now, it's different. And she mentioned how Vaiseshipa and other, you know, devotees have managed to implement pure book distribution and that's very nice. And that Kirtan has also been brought in as a result of the likes of Indra Prabhu and others.

Devotees have championed that, Madhava, as we know, and that kind of thing. But still, this culture of thoroughly discussing the books and trying to understand the philosophy from different angles and so many things is missing. You know, really, we don't.

But we may see that in some places. I mean, you know, it hasn't been our experience in Krishna Consciousness since 1979. We've not really seen that.

Although perhaps in odd places it may go on. But we're just saying make it the predominant culture of ISKCON. And yes, I do think it's absolutely necessary, she was saying, in order to equip devotees with the ability to practise Krishna Consciousness for their whole lives.

I mean, let's be honest about it. We know what the attrition rate is in ISKCON. You know, everyone knows that.

It's terrible. The percentage of devotees after five years and ten years who still remain seriously practising Krishna Consciousness, even chanting their sixteen rounds, you know, is something to be lamented over because so many of them don't continue. They become casualties.

They're out there and you may see them for the Sunday Feast or for the festivals, but hardly ever outside of that. And they're struggling in their lives. They've now got a wife, they've got three children, they've got a job, you know, and they're just struggling.

And they haven't been trained. They haven't been equipped with the tools, with the ability to solve the problems of their life on a day-to-day basis. And that's what we're saying.

Let's do that. You know, Prabhupada says that householders should come together every day. They should do four things in the Bhagavad Gita, in the Purport of 13.8-12, which is they chant together, they worship the deity together, they take prasadam together, and they discuss books like the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam together.

You know, and that will keep them together. And that will enable them to solve the problems of their life. But we're not training them like that.

You know, we're bringing them in and then we're hooking them up with someone and perhaps with a mentor structure. And then, you know, when that falls apart for them, or when they get into a position where they're, you know, unable really to carry on with that, they're floundering. They're back where they were when they first walked through the temple door, perplexed.

So, yeah, we're just saying, let's try and address that problem right from the start. Yeah. So, would this mean, say, regarding the culture of, thank you for your points, the culture of, say, sadhus, sangha, say, we even as compared to, say, 10 years ago or 15 years ago, there is a significant emphasis on education now where devotees are being encouraged or even required to take a Bhakti Shastri course.

And there are many spiritual masters who don't give second initiation unless the devotees have completed Bhakti Shastri. So, it does seem that education is being emphasised. But I surmise that when you're talking about sadhu sangha, it's more than education.

So, that's what I'm trying to understand. Yes, it is more than education. Sorry to interrupt you.

Yeah, go ahead, please. It's so nice you're bringing this in. Thank you for bringing this up.

I'm so happy they do things like Bhakti Shastri. Please don't think we're trying to knock that. But it's an academic approach.

There's pre-set questions. You read the books to find the answers to that question. You learn the verses to memorise so you can pass the test.

What sadhu sangha is, is a daily part of our lives. Coming together without pre-set questions. Prabhupada says how to do it.

He says, do it systematically. Start from the beginning. It's not about how many books you learn or how many shlokas you learn or whether you're good at writing essays, whether you're good at passing exams.

It's not about that. It's about coming together, two people or more, two or three people, your family members, your friends, your mentor, your mentee, coming together and churning, churning Prabhupada's books and letting the questions come from you, not having the questions pre-set. So as you're discussing, it's thinking, what don't I understand? What isn't making sense to me? What do I understand? There's several habits that Prabhupada says.

First of all, he says, repeat what he is telling us in our own words. He says, don't be just like a parrot. Capture my meaning and put it in your own words.

There's so many places he says that. He says, even for material things, you have to repeat in order to learn. So we say, come and don't just repeat Prabhupada's own words.

Read the sentence, read the passage, put it in your own words because when you have to put it in your own words, you first have to think. There's shrotavya, then there's deyaya, thinking about it. What does he mean? What does he mean? Then there's tritavyascha.

Then you have to put it in your own words. You express it. So immediately there's that thinking process.

And then you let the questions come from within you. What does it make sense to me? How does this apply to me? And it's not an academic exercise we do for as long as we've got until we pass the exam. It's a habit that we put into our lives daily.

We come together for half an hour, 20 minutes a day together or two, three times a week together, whatever your timetable allows. Preferably I would say twice a day, morning and evening, Prabhupada's iskcon sandwich, half an hour morning, half an hour evening, and discuss thread pairs, sentence by sentence, passage by passage. So it's not resulting in an end exam and that's it, you've done your Bhakti Shastra.

This is an ongoing habit and practise. Sarasangha should never stop. Sarasangha, we do it daily, associate with Prabhupada.

Do I understand him correctly? What do I understand him to mean? What are my doubts? What are my confusions? Does it make sense to me? Doesn't it make sense to me? If it does make sense to me, how can this help me in my life? How can I bring this knowledge that I've just received today from Prabhupada's Sangha and to solve the problems that I'm dealing with in my life? You know, this is the crucial habit that changed the trajectory of our lives, my husband and myself. And the few devotees that we've managed to share it with, they've all felt it helps them and we would just like to see this becoming a habit that every devotee is trained in, how to do daily Sarasangha. By all means, those who are intellectual, go on and pass the exams.

But this Sarasangha is even for the non-intellectuals, it's for anybody. Anybody can come together and discuss at their level what is Prabhupada saying to me? How would I put that in my own words? What do I understand? How can it help me? What are my doubts? What are my confusions? So this is a daily habit, it's not an exam, it's not a matriculation exam or something. That also has a wonderful place in our society.

We're not knocking it, but it's not an ongoing habit and we would like to devotees to be trained in the culture, like chanting 16 rounds is an ongoing habit. It's not that we chant 64 rounds one day to pass an exam. You've got your chanting exam.

No. We do it 16 rounds every day. So similarly, Sarasangha every day.

So we get Krishna's protection and Krishna giving us the intelligence to solve the different complexities of our lives. That's beautiful. So, yeah, I think the Bhakti Shastri is almost like okay, now I completed degree, now it's done.

But in one sense, Shravanam and then Dhyanam, as you said, Shrotavya Dhyasya Pujata. So that is something which has to be done daily. So that's beautiful.

So I would like to ask something about this. But before that, Krishna Dharampal, you want to reflect something on what Mataji has said? Yeah, of course. So yeah, you were asking, you were saying of course in ISKCON we have Bhakti Shastri, Bhakti Vaibhav etc.

So is that not something that we approve, that we like, that we think is the Sarasangha process? And is there a distinction between what we're saying? You sense that there is a distinction. And my wife pointed out, yes, there is. But what we're saying is we're asking that there be a daily process of associating with Prabhupada's books and bringing up our own questions because the nature of Bhakti Shastri, and we know exactly what it is.

Our daughter actually went to Mayapur and spent six months there and took the Bhakti Shastri course and the exam. At the end she's passed it and everything. So we know what it's about.

And it's really about that there are certain questions that are brought up and you have to study Shastra in order to be able to answer those questions. But it's not about really exploring your own questions, your own doubts, your own confusions. The very things that will make you give up the path at some point or become bewildered at some point if you don't deal with them.

So we're saying the Sadhu Sangha is where you churn Prabhupada's books, where you actually bring out your own questions by associating with him. That's what happens when you do that. This is part of a… You just quoted the Sanskrit, but she also quoted Shatavya Gaya, the kit of hearing and assimilating and repeating in English.

I like English. So that is what we're saying. And it's not a Jnani process.

It's not something about learning and assimilating knowledge. This is part of the process of the nine Angas of Bhakti, Shravanam, Kirtanam, that we're saying needs to be there. It needs to be regular Shravanam and Kirtanam.

And in the process of discussing of Sadhu Sangha, we do those things. And then we naturally come to the point of contemplating by repeating back, by really trying to deeply understand it. We contemplate it and then we apply the knowledge.

We bring out the questions that we have. We try to answer those and then we get to the point of applying it practically in our lives to solve the problems of our life. So that's really what she was trying to say there.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

So now we're talking about the sandwich of morning and evening. When our movement was temple-based, there is the Bhagavatam class in the morning and the Bhagavata class in the evening. And now we are mostly, it has become a congregation-based movement.

So everybody stays at different places. They may not be able to come to the temples also. But even then, so what you are discussing or what you are suggesting, even the Bhakti Shastri is, at least Bhakti Shastri to some extent, there is some kind of accountability in the sense you have to give an exam, some kind of interaction, some exercise are there.

If you consider our daily Bhagavatam classes, they are quite didactic and unidirectional. So if I understand right, when you're talking about Sadhu Sangha, you're not really referring to just classes, you're referring to discussions. Am I right in understanding that? So then did Prabhupada, of course, Prabhupada's morning walks are examples of Prabhupada doing this discussion and even playing the devil's advocate at times and forcing devotees to defend their beliefs and their understandings.

So now Prabhupada did that. So, but it seems that Prabhupada that Prabhupada did he, when he said Nityam Bhagavata Sevaya means daily attendance of the Bhagavatam classes, that's how Prabhupada translated it. So is it that maybe at that time are you saying that the movement was new, so the Bhagavatam classes were more didactic and now there should be more conversation based or are you referring to something apart from the Bhagavatam classes there are other forums for Sadhu Sangha Bhair.

It is more of a reciprocal which leads to more independent thoughtful thinking. Yeah, should I respond? Yes, either of you. Yeah, please go ahead.

I'll start and my wife can come after. Yeah, you're saying are we like Nityam Bhagavata Sevaya, you're saying that the ISKCON Sandwich consists of the morning Bhagavatam class and the evening Gita class, although the evening Gita class is not so well attended, you might say, and the devotees are perhaps here, there and everywhere and they're not able to come together for that. But it was, you know, the thing that Prabhupada implemented initially, the ISKCON Sandwich, so the morning class and the evening class.

And you're saying that it was that didactic thing that the speaker, Prabhupada, would deliver the class and everyone would sit there and hear. And the evening class similarly. And now are we suggesting that that should change and that we should have a more conversational type of class and discussion type of thing? Or are we saying that, no, the classes are fine, keep them, but let's add, as well as the class, this discussion process, this Ishta Goswami as my wife was saying, which Prabhupada actually meant to be a philosophical discussion and not talking about who's going to clean the toilets and that kind of thing.

But yeah, that's so are we saying that, that that should come in addition to the classes or do we think the classes themselves need to change? Right? Yeah, in response we, you know, we spoke to one Prabhupada, a lady actually, who told us that in the early days, very early days of the classes, they used to all come with the book and, you know, the class they would get, you know, the person they were discussing, they would, each of them, read the purport and actually have some kind of discussion take place during the time of the class, where they would, you know, each get a chance to think about it and to say something. And it wasn't just one person sitting there and speaking. Of course Prabhupada did that, but he's like, of course, he's the professor.

You know, if you're in the university, the professor gives the lecture, but then what do the students do? You know, they sit down and discuss what the professor has said. You know, there may be tutors sort of helping, but it's all about trying to understand, analyse the professor's lecture. So, you know, we feel the classes should be like that and one of the problems with, you know, that we see with classes is that it's passive hearing.

Passive means you just sit there and the person speaks and it goes in one ear and out the other. And often they're on their phone, they're nodding off, they're thinking about prasadam, they're, you know, they're distracted or they're just not there at all. How many people actually come to the class? Even online, how many people? You know, hardly anyone.

Percentage-wise of the community, like in the Bhaktivedanta Manor community of thousands, you might see, you know, 50 people listening to the class and 10, 12, 15 in the temple room. Hardly any. But even then, the ones that are, you know, they'll come out of the class at the end and, oh, brilliant class.

And they say, yeah, what did you understand? What were the key points? Oh, I can't really remember. You know, maybe one point is the key, something like that. So, it's not really very powerful and effective.

And we try to give classes in a different way where we get more involvement from the audience. And it can be done. And devotees can be trained how to do that.

You know, to have like a PowerPoint, put up the purport on the board and then just go through it and understand. Like, you know, you can have a class. Say someone gave a class on 1-1-1 from the Bhagavatam.

It's an 8-page purport. And in one day, they give the class. You know, excuse me.

We need to go through that. That purport is full of diamonds, you know. And we're just going to skim over that.

And there's so many like that, that we just give the class and they don't even speak from the purport. Go off on a tangent. You know, there are so many things.

So, we say, okay, let's go through it systematically. Stick the purport up and get everyone to get involved. You can give your understanding and others can get involved.

You know, and it becomes more of an effective forum for assimilating, for doing these three things of hearing, assimilating and then repeating. And, you know, it'll be more effective. So we would like to see classes changed.

Yes, definitely. But as well as that, we'd like to see more discussions take place. Not just that morning class.

Evening, at least that. At least the morning and the evening. As you say, the evening's dropped out of the picture.

But at least those two things we'd like to see done in an effective way. That's true. Regarding one challenge with respect to this churning or Sadhu Sangha is, with respect to the current classes, as you said it's too didactic, it's too passive.

But another challenge is that there are maybe too many people over there. In the sense, not too many in terms of number, but too many levels. So, it's almost like the Bhagavatam classes.

Say, if you compare it to university, it's a university in which say, second standard student and a PhD student are expected to both attend the same class. And that's what they're expected to do for the rest of their life. So, it's natural that a lot of devotees, if you try to address the PhD standard students, PhD level students need, the second standard student will feel cut off.

If you address the second standard student needs, the PhD level student will be cut off. So, like last time I think we discussed Sajatiya. So, I think that is also a challenge when we are having, we're trying to discuss, there has to be some level of compatibility in terms of understandings.

Suppose somebody is giving a class on maybe how Bheeshma has gloriously departed from the world and at that time somebody starts asking a question. What is the scientific proof of the existence of the soul? Now, that would be, it's an important question, but that would be a complete mismatch over there. So, it seems that Sadhu Sangha also will need to be more, you could say that decentralised or customised according to the needs of the particular group of devotees who are coming together.

Any thoughts about this? Mathaji would like to answer. Yes. So, I'm happy to go back as far as you like.

I just want to make sure our discussion is connected. You initially asking, you were initially asking are we saying the nature of the classes have to change or as well as the classes we have to add extra discussions? And my husband was saying, well, both, but first of all, let's get the classes functioning the way they should be functioning. Let's get people actually learning and participating and doing Shravanam and Jaya and Kirtavya's Chah and not just falling asleep or just spacing out.

Let's get the classes improved. And then you raised an interesting point developing that Chaitanya Charan Prabhu, you were saying that, yeah, you see the need for improving classes. One of the things about classes is that one class in the morning is meant to catch newcomers, beginners and devotees who have been studying Prakash's books for many years all in one 45 minutes.

That's like putting, you know, high school students, you know, BA students, you know, master students and PhD students all in the same classroom and say, you know, you're going to learn science together. It's like if you aim it at the high school students, the PhD students and the master students, they're just going to go, this isn't meant for me. And if you aim it at the PhD and at the students, the high school students and the, you know, university students are going to go, this isn't meant for me.

But that's what we're doing. We just put everyone in the same class and then you gave an example of the kind of questions that maybe a PhD student would ask, which would be completely irrelevant for a newcomer. So, Hussain, what are our thoughts on that? Have I kept the thread correctly? Perfect, yes.

Thank you for retracing the thought. Thank you. My response to you, Pippu, is that we have improved in every area.

We've improved the way we do Ratha-Yatra for when Prabhupada was here. When Prabhupada was here, he did Ratha-Yatra on a you know, he did Ratha-Yatra one way in his very first Ratha-Yatra. Since then, devotees have improved it, you know.

We've improved the way festivals are given. We've improved the way food for life is done. We've done, we've improved the way book distribution is done.

You know, we've improved the way Kirtan festivals are done. The one thing, which we think was done like this when Prabhupada was here, we're going to keep doing it like this, is the morning Bhagavatam and the evening Gita class and they've become irrelevant. And the Gita class, hardly anyone goes to even the Temple of the Vedas, at least here.

And certainly, no one does it when they become householders. My husband and myself do at home, but it's very rare. So, the one thing which we think, no, we can only do it the way it happened when Prabhupada was here, is the Bhagavatam class and Gita class, which are probably the most important foundational parts of our sadhana.

That association with Bhagavatam and Gita is like the fuel, it's the engine of our spiritual progress. It fuels our spiritual progress, and that's the one thing that we're not going to improve. We're just going to keep it the way it was, you know.

So, I like your points. I don't think we have the answers to everything, but our first thing is, even the newcomers who come, train them, first train them in how to do Sarasanga. One thing I observe in class, is people ask irrelevant questions.

You know, we have 16 principles of good Sarasanga, all of which are collated from Prabhupada's instructions. So, when people would ask a topic, a question, when Prabhupada was speaking, on a peripheral point, Prabhupada would say, why are you asking that question? That's not on the main point. So, training people in the culture of good Sarasanga includes training them in how to ask correct questions, you know, and how to reflect back without speculating, and how to contribute without speculating.

You know, so at least give everyone, the high school students, the PhD students, everyone, the basic training in how to participate in discussions in spiritual circles, not speculating, and speaking pleasantly, and keeping it on topic, keeping it to the point. And then if there can be further improvements, like the improvements you're suggesting, I would think yes, obviously, we haven't thought that far ahead. I think that would be the prerogative of individual temples.

But our basic point is, first train everyone in how to keep it to the point, on the topic that Prabhupada is speaking about, in that report, keep it on that topic, and ask questions which help us to understand the topic he is discussing, and not to use our questions, our comments, to sabotage and take us away from the point Prabhupada is trying to instruct us on. Give that basic training, and that basic habit to everybody, and obviously, over and above that, there may be many ways that we can make our Bhagavatam and Gita discussions more effective. That's one thing I'd like to say, I would just like to add.

I do think there's also a point for including Istighostis, as well as Khandro-la said, I want you to increase. So the minimum was Bhagavatam and Gita discussion, we don't even keep the minimum anymore, but that's the minimum, and then he said, I want you to increase, and that is to add an Istighosti. Istighosti is small groups, because depending on the tempo, depending how many people are there, the shyest, the quietest, will be left out.

They will not do any Deya or Kirtavastu. But in small Istighostis, everyone is given a chance to participate. And that's all a matter of organisation.

Maybe we have the class, and then it goes later on to discuss the class. So many, I mean, we're not trying to say we have the answers for everything, and there's a lot of room for different ideas coming into how we can improve the hearing process. We just want to get the principle that hearing and understanding practise books is essential for our individual success and our movement's success.

And I would like to add one last point. I'm really sorry. It's just I worry that it may… There's one lecture by Prabhupada where Prabhupada said you know, the Bhagavatam class should not just be a matter of routine.

He said it should be a routine, but not just a matter of routine. You should be learning. You must learn something.

That is our principle. The learning, the assimilation, the transformation must be happening. Devotees must be trained and facilitated and supported in that engagement and connection with practise books actually happening.

That's all I wanted to say. Okay. I agree that our movement is very big and even if we don't have all the answers, I don't think anybody has all the answers, but at least we can take steps in those directions and some sustained discussion on the themes that Prabhupada teaches are important.

Now, just one question about this. Vishwanath, do you want to reflect something or should I… Go ahead. I'll get it in a minute.

Yeah. Okay. So, I have talked with different devotees about the Bhagavatam classes and there is the verse and there is the purport.

So, now the class can go tangential in many different ways. Tangential means it just becomes some kind of entertainment with nothing to do with either the verse or the purport. Another is that it will be go sentence by sentence on the purport and then maybe explain that.

At the same time, this could be, we could say, two, I don't want to use the word extreme for either approach, but two broad broad frames within which things could work. Every devotee is an individual. So, if some devotee feels inspired to speak on the verse and they take some points in the purport but they talk broadly about the pastime and the stress is not on the purport but it is on the verse and it is on the pastime which is a part of the verse, the analysis that is a part of the verse.

So, I would, my understanding is Prabhupada Prabhupada wanted the purports to be aids in studying the scriptures. So, and now it is the purport and scripture both go together. At the same time Prabhupada wanted us to study the scripture and if devotees based on say like even you have written your Bhagavatam where you draw from previous Acharya's commentaries and then you elaborate.

is it, isn't there some room for, again we can go back to independent thoughtfulness that independent thoughtfulness means individuality. So, different devotees will take different approaches to giving the Bhagavatam class or explaining. Do we, does everybody have to have that approach that every single sentence in the purport has to be explained in your class or it's tangential? As long as they are discussing the whole past, discussing the pastime, discussing the verse, they are focussing on the on the theme that is given in the scripture in that place.

My understanding would be that is still Bhagavat Katha, it is not tangential. So, of course, I know that different devotees have different opinions about this, but I do agree what is tangential is nothing about the verse or about the purport. But sometimes the verse can inspire different devotees in different ways.

Prabhupada said that he wanted to write another commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, maybe if he had the time. So, that means the verse, is it that the verse can speak to a devotee today only through the purport? Can the verse, of course, we read the purport, but the verse can speak to a devotee in a way that may at certain times be slightly different from what is said in the purport. And as long as the devotee is speaking on the verse, speaking on the scripture, so, is that I don't see that as disrespect to Srila Prabhupada, I see that as the mercy of Srila Prabhupada that a devotee is able to elaborate on the scripture and give us a deeper understanding of the scripture.

I'll stop. You're saying um I don't know if Chintamani wanted me to capture the Okay. Anyway, I mean that, you know, you're stressing the importance of keeping it to Prabhupada's purport, you know, keeping it on point, questions relating to Prabhupada, what he's saying, you know, and not going off on a tangent and so many things, and also introducing us to ghosties.

So there's that, but now Chaitanya Sarampu is saying, well, when it comes to the class, does it always have to be that we're going through, you know, line by line on the purport or you know, can it be that someone because the purport after all is expanding the meaning of the verse, that's the whole point. The purport of the verse is what Prabhupada is giving us. So some devotees, you know, take the approach of like trying to explain for themselves what they understand from the purport, from the verse, and they may, you know, speak Bhagavad Gita, they may not go off.

Chaitanya Sarampu recognises there is a problem. Sometimes where devotees go off on a tangent, where they give us their life story or start telling jokes, or just kind of entertain everyone, and so many things, but not always. Sometimes they stick to, you know, they talk about the verse, and they, you know, give their own understanding, their own realisations, etc.

So does that have to be a problem? You're saying. Is that right, Prabhuji? Yes, it's a few key. Okay, yeah.

I mean, I would like to say a couple of things. One is that what are we trying to achieve? You know, we're saying right from the start here that Prabhupada is the fundamental foundational authority in ISKCON, and we need to form a relationship with him and, you know, establish him as the principal shiksha guru. And, you know, it's not just a sentiment.

He himself says in his books that one should take, this is, I'm going to quote you now from the fourth canto, 22-22, purple. One should take shelter of a pure devotee who has nothing to do with this material world, but is simply engaged in devotional service. By serving him only can one transcend the qualitative material condition.

In this verse it is recommended that one serve the lotus feet of the topmost yogi or the devotee. To serve the topmost devotee means to hear from him about the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And, you know, we can give, there are so many statements from Prabhupada where he stresses the importance of associating with the topmost devotee, hearing from the topmost devotee.

That is our process. That is how we are, as he put it in this particular verse, how we can transcend the qualitative material condition by serving him only. We can't do that by serving a conditioned soul, by hearing from a conditioned soul.

You know, with all due respect to the devotees who give classes, I know I give class, I know I'm a conditioned soul. Now, what value is it my 3 minute lecture going to give, 30 minute or 45 minute lecture going to do for anyone? I can't get myself out of this ocean of misery. I'm struggling to get out.

How am I going to lift anyone else out? But if I can somehow act as the via media for them to associate with the pure devotee, with Prabhupada, to hear from him, I can actually do them some good. And we can do that because we've got there's his purports. The purports are not just explaining the verses.

They're Prabhupada's ecstasies. They're him. The Vani and the spiritual master are non-different.

So we can associate with the topmost devotee by hearing from him. And we should do that in the class. And the problem is, you know, devotees may want to speak their realisations, that's fantastic.

But do it outside of the Bhagavatam class, please. Because the Bhagavatam class is sometimes the sole opportunity that anyone may have to actually associate with Prabhupada in their day. They may tune into the Bhagavatam class in the morning and then go to work.

They've got no more time. They come home at night and there are so many things going on. So the one opportunity they actually have to get the association of the topmost devotee and hear from him, they end up hearing from a conditioned soul.

He's giving his realisations. Wonderful. But is it the same as actually hearing from Prabhupada? Is he a liberated soul? You know, can he get us out of the qualitative modes of nature and help us to transcend? Or, you know, Prabhupada can do that.

And we have the opportunity to associate with him right there in the class. So let's not lose that opportunity. And let's not usurp that ourselves with our own thoughts, ideas and whatever it may be.

You know, that's okay if you want to do that. But do that outside of the class. And if anyone wants to hear you, that's up to them.

Okay. Mother, do you want to add something to this or reflect on it? It's my practise to always pick up from the key points. So if I may just first do that.

Thank you, Swami. So you were saying, well, if we give class in the verse and kind of like surpass Prabhupada and say, well, we're not going to talk about what Prabhupada says. We're going to talk about what I've got to say about this.

We are cheating people who tuned in or come to that Bhagavatam class of the opportunity to hear from and serve the topmost devotee, which is the only means of transcending the qualitative modes of material nature. So in a sense, we're not doing anyone any service. By all means, we can be intelligent and talk about the verse.

But let's not usurp the Bhagavatam class, which is maybe the only opportunity some devotees have to actually associate and take Prabhupada's Sangha. So let's not usurp that. So if that was my husband's point, which I deeply appreciate, and I'm not contradicting, I would just like to add something to that, if I may.

There are devotees and I mean, I'm not one of them, but there are devotees who are surely learned and also know the teachings of the Acharyas. I know one of your Godbrothers here in the UK. I think he's an incredible asset to Iskcon.

His friendship is a great asset in our personal lives because he knows he studied in Sanskrit all the teachings of all the Acharyas. He knows the books back and front. He knows.

So I'd love to hear him explaining some other lights on a verse from other Acharyas. You know, that would be great. But then we have to change our approach to Bhagavatam class.

It's not that one verse per class. If a devotee is going to speak on the verse because that particular devotee is truly learned, he's not speculative and just wasting everyone's time, but he's going to tell us what Rupa Goswami says on this verse, what Jiva Goswami says on this verse. Great! But let's spend more than one session on that class so that the next day we can then hear what Prabha has to say on that verse.

You know what I mean? That's what we do at home. We actually do spend a session because we go through systematically and scrutinizingly. So one day we may just be on the verse and we're just trying to analyse the verse.

But the next day, we'll go to Prabha's purport and we'll hear what Prabha has got to say on that verse. So if we're going to bring in other Acharyas to expand on verses, fine. As long as we change our policy about class.

It's got to be one verse per class. My husband made a really nice point. Janmadyasya has got an eight-page purport.

One class for that? You've got to be kidding me. We should be spending on that. First for the verse and then for each paragraph.

So let's actually make our Bhagavatam classes more than just a ritual that we do unthinkingly. And let's make them thoughtful opportunities and effective opportunities for devotees to deeply assimilate and understand Prabha's teachings. So that's the only thing I wanted to add.

I think this is a I would say that at the very least a lot of options have become clear for what devotees could do at an individual and collective level to move forward and get Sadhusangha. So any we're always there for two hours. I don't respect your time also.

Not take too much of your time. Are there any concluding points you'd like to make before anything about Sadhusangha specifically or you want to share any points as such or I can summarise. How do you want to go ahead? Would you mind if I emphasise one point before you did your summary? We had one last discussion too and when you asked that question I said I'm fine and I wish I'd emphasise this point.

At least in three places I know of two of them come straight to my mind. Canto 3 chapter 3 text 6 and Canto 11 chapter 3 text 30 and there is one other place I just can't remember the reference. Prabhupada emphasised the importance of being trained, of learning how to do Sadhusangha and where do we take that training from? He says we get that from the pure devotee.

These are some things that Prabhupada says about how to associate with him and how to get the most out of it. He says we need training in that. It's one thing to know it, it's another thing to make it part of our habit.

My greatest hope, though I'm a nobody, I'm a nobody in ISKCON or in the figure of things, but my greatest hope is for the benefit of our movement and for the benefit of our individuals within the movement, we begin looking at training not based on our viewpoints but based on what Prabhupada says. We've done the best we can to share Prabhupada's instructions and how we've applied them on our website www.improvingsangha.com If that isn't good enough please euclid Prabhupada's instructions and start training programmes for devotees to learn how to do Sadhu Sangha properly. If it's being done properly there is a PH test, a litmus test we can tell if our training is being effective.

And the PH test is given in scripture itself 11.3.30. If we're doing Sadhu Sangha correctly these are the things we should be experiencing. Our mutual loving friendships are developing. We're experiencing mutual happiness and satisfaction and we're becoming increasingly attached to the process of hearing chanting and detached from sense gratification.

So let's implement this training and that's what devotees are inducted into into training for good Sadhu Sangha and small guru groups are facilitated for them to practise good Sadhu Sangha and that becomes the very basis of their foundation for their continued growth in their spiritual life. That's the only thing I wanted to add. Thank you very much.

That's wonderful. And thank you. I think as our Acharya said Prabhupada also says it's written in the fruit.

Thank you. Krishnadevaraya, do you want to add something? No, I would have said the same thing. That training is actually required in the principles of Sadhu Sangha and I'm sure Prabhupada has indeed given us many instructions in that regard and we have collated those on the website improvingsangha.com and we invite you to please take a look and see what you think and contact us and if you'd like further help and guidance in those principles because we found them very effective and they're directly taken from the books.

We cite all the evidences from Srila Prabhupada and yeah, please have a look. Thank you. I'll try to summarise.

So, overall today we try to discuss the topic of how can devotees get the guidance and the wisdom to move ahead in their spiritual lives, to grow spiritually, to face life's complexities at large. So, one aspect we started by discussing is how there is devotees need to be right from the beginning connected with Srila Prabhupada's books by which they can learn to start thinking and then they can thoughtfully select their spiritual master, even whether they have unlimited choice or limited choice, but they'll be able to choose judiciously and then they will also be able to deal with the, it's not just initiation, but also various challenges that they face in spiritual life, in practical life. They should get Shastra Chakshutha, see the eyes of scripture and for that what is important for such training is that we, you started by reading what, how Prabhupada is our PM and Shiksha Guru and that needs to be, that needs to be actualised in the life of devotees through a regular culture of hearing from Srila Prabhupada in association.

So, that's why Sadhu Sangha is more about devotees coming together and not in the hierarchical or didactic mood, but in the active reciprocal mood, discussing and by this everybody can develop their personal relationship with Prabhupada and then that it's almost like, we get an inner compass to make decisions. Otherwise, we get more and more dependent on others and so, we are a living tradition. At the same time to be a part of the living tradition in an intelligent way, we need guidance and that guidance comes from the regular study of Prabhupada's books and then we discussed how say, our movement is in many ways moving in a healthy direction.

Earlier, Kirtan was not being done so much on the Buddhist mission, but now Kirtan is also happening. So, similarly, we are moving towards, we can move towards Sadhu Sangha more and more. So, the education is good, but at the same time education makes, education like Bhakti Shastra courses, it makes it quite target orientated and it is a little bit more pre-formatted, whereas we wanted things much more systematic, much more a part of a regular schedule, just like we chant every day.

Similarly, we hear every day. Not just we hear, but actually we have Sadhu Sangha, that means so, it can be devotees from small groups. So, with the devotees going out of, most devotees out of the temple, the traditional ISKCON sandwich of Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita class really may not be practical for most devotees, but then there can be Ishta Goshti among small groups of devotees who can come together and then they can discuss and we go over to the Prabhupada Sangha systematically and Prabhupada has given so much in his books and his purports and we need to also discuss about how the Bhagavatam class keeps us connected with the Bhagavatam, but still there are many things which could be done to make the Bhagavatam classes more effective and rather than say giving definitive answers, we are basically throwing the flashlight or casting a light on what are the needs and how Sadhu Sangha can help us address those needs.

The specifics of how the Sadhu Sangha will work in different situations, that is something which can be addressed and of course you had a lot of Prabhupada quotes throughout to illustrate the points of how Prabhupada wanted us to train devotees in thoughtfulness by having mock debates and playing devil's advocate and even during the Bhagavatam classes, after the Bhagavatam classes devotees would come together and discuss. So this has been a part of our tradition, but it has sort of not been adequately emphasised. So when we do that then the result of Sadhu Sangha, the result of discussion centred on Krishna would be that we feel enriched, we feel content and we feel enlivened in our spiritual life.

So you have provided some guidelines on improvingsangha.com and those are also available for devotees who would like to develop, explore and develop the subject more. Can we discuss many more points? Would you like to add anything more? Any concluding words? That was perfect. Very nice recap.

Thank you so much, Prabhu. Thank you, Prabhu. I very much appreciate your kind support.

Thank you, Krishnarupa. Thank you, Sita Mani Mataji, for sparing your time and joining today. Hare Krishna.

Hare Krishna. Thank you for your time. Thank you.