Fire of Desire – Why Ravana’s desire was misdirected part 1

Video:

Correct.

So as I mentioned, I'll speak on the topic of the power of desire. Okay. So I'll be speaking this in two parts.

In the first part, I'll speak on the power of misdirected desire. And we'll take Ravana as an example for that. So Ravana, he had ten desires but he had zero brains.

Because his desire destroyed his intelligence. So we'll talk about how the power of desire gets misdirected. That we'll learn from Ravana.

And in the next session, I'll be talking about Hanuman. So in this way, we will understand both how desire can hurt us and how desire can hurt us and how it can help us. So why do some people when desire is misdirected, we'll discuss two main themes over here.

Why do some people never learn? We all have certain misdirected desires and we experience to some extent the consequences of that. But some people learn, some don't. So Ravana was of course one of those who didn't learn.

So why didn't he learn? And how can we avoid being one of them? That we'll be discussing. So now, if you want to understand Ramayana, we will discuss various approaches to understanding the Ramayana. So here's the pendulum.

So one extreme of an approach could be that we consider the Ramayana to be literal. It's a story. Some people may say, okay, it's a nice children's story, we can hear it, we can enjoy it.

And that's all. Some people like the story, some people don't like the story. So there are so many stories in the world.

There are so many things like that. And this is the first one story in it. So that's one extreme of the pendulum.

The other is, some people say this is metaphorical. Metaphorical means that actually Ram represents this, and Ravan represents this, and Ayodhya represents this, and that represents that. Now when I'm saying it's literal, it's not that the literal is false.

But here when we go to the extreme, it is, literal is the only reality. Whereas when we talk about metaphorical, metaphorical is also a reality. It could be a reality.

But when it's only metaphorical, then what happens? The story becomes stripped of all historicity. The story just becomes, oh, it's some fables, fable-like thing taught by someone, maybe some allegory taught by someone. And even God becomes reduced to a mere symbol.

And that means there is no higher reality, there's nothing higher to be attained. Just we want to learn some lessons about how to live better in this world. So this is, both of these are extremes which need to be avoided.

Now in between is what is called as metonymical. Now metonym is a figure of speech, and I have explained it here, what it means is that when we say something is metonymical, that means what is described is reality, but reality is much more than what is described. So for example, if say we hear news, the White House has declared war on North Korea.

Now what does it mean? White House is a physical structure, but White House represents the US government. So there is a physical structure, which is white in colour, which is the White House. So that is real, but the reality is also much more than what is described.

So metonymical means that we use something which is a partial, which is a part of the whole, which is basically a partial reference to the whole thing. So for example, we might say that the pen is mightier than the sword. Now here what do we mean? It's not that actually the pen and sword are fighting, it is a pen represents an author, and authors do use pens.

Say soldiers, warriors, they use swords. So here a part is used to describe the whole. So when I say that Ramayana is metonymical, what do I mean by that? That God and things about God are far bigger than what our mind can conceive.

So therefore, now what is described is true, but God, he is much more than the description. So when it is said, say for example, Krishna is bluish black in colour, that is true. However, it is not like the bluish black of our experience.

Krishna is much, much more than that. Many times the poets, the great bhakti saints, they use some comparisons to describe Krishna, Krishna or Ram, and then they say that actually these comparisons are inadequate. So in Rupa Goswami's Laita Madhav, the kings who have been rescued by Krishna from Jarasandha, they say that Krishna, we earlier glorified you with choice poetry when we were asking you for help, but now when we have seen you, we saw your beauty, we saw your power, now we understand that actually we were treating, we were glorifying the sun to be a candle.

So yes, both have light, and we were actually saying that in this darkness you give so much light, you are so powerful, but what we were telling, our words are inadequate to describe you. So the words are not false, the words are real, but reality is more than the words. So what this means is, yes, Ramayan is literal, Lord Ram did descend to the earth, he did perform pastimes.

So Ramayan also has some things which are symbolic. So now if you want to understand the Ramayan, there could be various levels in this. These levels, I have talked based on two things.

One is Madhvacharya talks about this in his Brahma Sutra Bhashya, and Shri Bhaktivinoda Thakur talks about this in his Krishna Samhita as well as Chaitanya Shiksha Amrita. So let's look at these levels. So at the literal level, we just enjoy the story, and that's entertaining.

So many people may read Ramayan, maybe some comics like Amar Chitra Katha, or they may watch some enacted movies or animated movies. Okay, that's good, good story, nice entertainment. Then the Ramayan can also be understood at the ethical level.

Ethical level is where we learn how to act ethically. Okay, this action, what Kaikeyi did in demanding, Kaikeyi got influenced by Mantara and she devastated her family. We have to be very careful about who we get influenced by.

So that is we learn some ethical lessons. How Sita was so faithful that when Ram had to go to the forest, she insisted, I'll go with you. When Bharata was offered the kingdom, he refused to take the kingdom.

He sat on the he didn't sit on the crown, he kept Lord Ram's footsteps on the crown. This is selflessness. So we can learn various values.

So when we approach the epics at the ethical level, there is edification. We learn, we get some uplifting lessons from this. Now when we approach the epics at the metaphorical level, then there is we see universal principles in action in the epic.

So, for example, now Ravana is a historical person. At the same time, Ravana also represents the selfish, exploitative desires, the lust within our hearts. So now, often for people who are more intellectually orientated, the metaphorical meaning is, it gives them either some titillation or some inspiration.

Hey, that's interesting. I didn't know that. That makes it relevant.

Oh, I want to go deeper into this. Now often those who give metaphorical explanations, they think that we are wiser and we are going deeper than the literal. These people are literalists.

They just hear the story, but we go deeper, we analyse, we look at the symbolism. So that's true. Now Bhaktivinod Thakur, what he does is, he also gives metaphorical explanations of say the demons in Krishna Leela.

But then he says that actually there is a level beyond the metaphorical also. And that is the transcendental level. The transcendental level, we understand, this is Krishna himself, this is the Supreme Lord and these are the past times where there are loving exchanges between the Lord and His devotees.

And by hearing these past times, we can also develop love. And we then hear at this level, the Leela is not just for entertainment, it is for being entered into. It is for enlightenment.

We become elevated and liberated. So this is some basic philosophy. Now we will be of course discussing the story today at the ethical and the metaphorical levels.

And our purpose will be to rise to the transcendental level. So of course, I will tell some parts of the literal story also. And that is also relishable.

So I mentioned that Ravana had ten heads. And interestingly when Ravana made the plan to abduct Sita at that time ten people warned him warned him that don't abduct Sita or if you abducted give her back to Ravana. So he rejected all those ten warnings.

So he had ten heads but he had zero brains. And all the ten warnings he rejected and that's how his desire had got so much in control of him that he couldn't listen to anyone. So ten people warned him but he didn't listen at all.

So it's like if somebody is going on the road and on that road you say danger ahead, don't go. One sign, two signs, three signs, four signs. Why would somebody go on a path that is clearly warned as dangerous? So we will try to understand Ravana's psychology and how some traces of that psychology might be present within us also and how we can try to free ourselves from those.

So let's look at the first person itself. So we have Maricha was a demon who had become a sage. Long ago he had tried to attack Ram and Ram using his arrows Ram had used a blunt arrow and flung him far away.

Then after that Maricha had become a sage and he had become basically a yogi and he said I have given up all my demoniac ways because Ram's power is too much, he might kill me. So Maricha when Ravana came to him for the first time when he heard about what had happened when he had heard that he wanted to he had a desire to abduct Sita. So at that time Maricha told him Ram's power is such that no one in the three worlds can stand against him.

No one in the three worlds. So now here if we look at sequentially what had happened that Ram was warned by Maricha but he didn't listen. So actually at this stage his desire was not so much for Sita but as a tool to get back at Ram.

So what had happened first Shurpanakha had tried to tempt Ram and then attack Sita. So at that time on Ram's order Lakshman punished Shurpanakha. Shurpanakha got enraged and went to her brothers Khar and Dushan and they came with 14000 soldiers their demons and Ram single handedly neutralised all of them and only one of them survived that is Akampana.

His name was Akampana means one who never trembles but as he ran back to Ravan's abode he was doing all Kampana it's all trembling because such was his fear and when Ravan heard that Akampana that his whole battalion had been destroyed he said I will destroy whoever it is and Akampana said no Ram is very powerful better don't confront him straight so he says he is in the forest but he has brought his wife there with him means he must be very attached to his wife so if you can abduct his wife then he will become weak and then you can defeat him so you know demons have their own mentality he couldn't think that Ram was attached that's why he brought Sita Sita was dutiful that's why Sita had come with him so then on Akampana's advice he came to Maricha with a plan but Maricha said what enemy of yours has advised you to antagonise Ram Maricha knew Ravan was proud and he didn't want to directly say that you are being foolish he said whoever has told you this that person is your enemy don't listen to him and when Ravan heard that he said ok he actually went back but after that Shurpanakha came there and then Shurpanakha started what is this Shurpanakha described Sita's beauty in very tantalising explicit terms and that snapped Ravan's intelligence he relapsed he heard Maricha but not for long so Shurpanakha also was having her own power game Shurpanakha wanted to get back at Ram and for her Ravan was a tool she had gone there for Ram's sake but she told Ravan that actually I had gone there to get Sita for you only she is so beautiful I feel she should be your queen so she had her own agenda but now it's interesting that as soon as Shurpanakha's words came Ravan relapsed now why is that sometimes we may not do a wrong thing and that is good but why we are not doing the wrong thing is also important if somebody is being moral somebody is doing the right thing simply because they are afraid of the consequences yes that's good there should be at least fear of consequences but however that is unsustainable that is short lived if tomorrow if somebody thinks that I have become powerful enough that I won't get the consequences then what happens that particular restraint that particular moral choice will no longer remain so it is said that morality is often the lack of opportunity that means I just don't have the power to get away by doing things that's why I'll avoid this so now when we do the right thing see consequence is external whereas basically for us whenever we are about to do a wrong thing there could be two deterrents for us one is the fear of consequence or if I do this I'll get in a lot of trouble that is good at one level but a far healthier motive is the power of conscience there are two factors which can deter us from wrong actions which can make us do the right thing one could be the fear of consequence and the other is the power of conscience so as long as it is the power of conscience that is actually truly protecting if it is fear of consequence it is temporary just like parents if they may give some fear of consequence to their children if they do something wrong they get mixed with the bad crowd start developing bad habits you'll be grounded you'll not have your phone you'll not have your TV you'll not have this you'll not have that that's at one level required but eventually the children are going to grow up and how long can they be controlled by the parents so important part of parenting is to empower the conscience of the person so of the child so it is when somebody is not having the fear of consequence also then that is terrible so here Ravan had fear of consequence maybe it's not worth tangling with him but here what happened that was what he had thought when Maricha had deterred him but when he heard Sita's beauty then he said I have to get her so all of us constantly do cost benefit analysis so for him ok I have to fight with Ram I might get into some trouble I might lose some demons but if I want to get Sita I can enjoy her then it's worth it so what happened he earlier felt the consequence is not worth it but now he said the consequence I don't care what I'm going to get I want it so that's how the desire gets triggered and when the desire gets triggered the desire can drive us crazy so that fear of consequence disappeared for him when the desire was inflamed by Sita by Shurpanakha sorry so for all of us also we have to be careful that we don't expose ourselves to someone who triggers our desires in today's world especially the media often acts like Shurpanakha the movie industry, the internet it's filled with so many temptations and they are systematically designed to trigger our lower desires and that's how we all can get into terrible trouble so even if we know something is wrong we have to keep the consequence in mind and that is one level deterrent but we need a higher level deterrent and that is the power of conscience and actually if we hear scripture regularly we associate with those who are trying to live according to scripture then both these are very good sources for us to improve our conscience we associate with those who have a good conscience and we hear about those great souls who have good conscience and that's how our conscience can be empowered now after that the next person was Hanuman so this is we'll do a fast forward in the story now the fast forward is that he first of all Ravana was successful in abducting Sita but Sita refused to submit to him and then he kept in Ashokvatika Ram aligned with Sugriva and they send monkeys to search and then Hanuman leapt across the ocean, came to Lanka found Sita then he decided to meet observe and warn Ravana Ravana was so insolent that he decided to burn Hanuman's tail and Hanuman used that very tail to burn Lanka now that was especially mortifying suppose there is a war between two countries say now there is some tension between India and China now if Indian soldiers defeat Chinese soldiers that's a defeat for them, that's loss of face but if Indian soldiers grab Chinese weapons and destroy them with the Chinese weapons that's even more humiliating for them so Hanuman did like that to teach a lesson Hanuman practically burned half of Lanka and then after that he rose, he went on the northern wall of Lanka, stood there with his tail raised above blazing in a huge form and then he thundered Oh Ravana, remember that your boon doesn't protect you from monkeys and humans hundreds of monkeys like me, as powerful as me and Ram and Lakshman will come and they will destroy you if you don't return Sita now this was an awesome display of prowess even this unfortunately did not deter Hanuman sorry, did not deter Ravana why was that? he didn't just hear about the power, he actually saw the power of one of Ram's servants so what happened is arrogance blinds us to changing realities when we are arrogant we think that I had won yesterday that means I am going to win today also no, yesterday's victories don't guarantee our victories today or tomorrow anybody in sports, they know that somebody might be a champion in the previous year, but they can be in a tennis tournament, in the first round they can be knocked out but sometimes if we are resting on our previous laurels then we become too intoxicated by that and you think I did that, therefore this person is no match look at this right now you think these monkeys, motley bunch of monkeys they will be no match to me but just see what one monkey has done right in front of you so we often talk about Ravana's problem as lust lust was his problem but it was not just lust, it was also arrogance that arrogance blinded him he was intoxicated by his own prowess and somebody might have done something glorious in the past but that doesn't mean that they should develop an entitlement mentality so Hanuman's warning was neglected and then he decided to press on but still everybody in Lanka was jolted Lanka had never been penetrated before what to speak of being devastated like this so Ravana called a council of war and he asked his generals what he should do and then at that point there was a third person who warned him and that was Vibhishan and actually Vibhishan spoke that Ram has single-handedly destroyed your entire regiment of 14000 warriors one monkey from Ram's army has destroyed half of Lanka and he was a messenger he came without weapons and we are still reeling from his actions how can you fight against him so Vibhishan beseeched Ravana unfortunately Ravana didn't hear Vibhishan also now why was that that was because he heard Indrajith, Prahastha and the other demons instead they told him that they told Ravana actually Lanka is still impregnable it's just that Hanuman caught us by surprise now we are prepared if next time any monkeys come it is they who will be in for a surprise a nasty surprise we have nothing to worry and Ravana just listened to them so if we hear only those who speak what we want to hear we don't grow only our illusions grow some people say that you are completely free to speak your mind as long as you agree with me now that's no freedom at all so in general if somebody disagrees with us it's unpleasant if somebody criticises us it's unpalatable for us at the same time we need to learn and we are finite beings we are fallible beings how much do we really know there are other people they have had experiences in their life they may say they are not as smart as we are fine, even if for argument's sake we agree but still they have experienced life from a different perspective maybe there is something we can learn from them can we say that I know everything I don't need to learn anything from anyone no, nobody can say that if we don't hear from those who disagree with us or those who have perspectives different from us then we stay in our own echo chamber echo chamber means that we just keep hearing our own voice so I speak something to someone and that person simply echoes what I said so that's the echo chamber nowadays in today's world of social media what happens is Google, Facebook all these they keep track of what we read and then the things that we have read something similar to us keeps coming back to us so what happens if somebody reads something from one perspective then they get more from that perspective and that's why people just become so polarised by that there have always been disagreements but now especially in the political world it's become so polarised that it's not just polite disagreement it is violent condemnation sometimes at least verbal verbal violence is there sometimes physical violence is there so what happens is that people just hear those who speak the same thing as they believe what they believe so this is very dangerous then we don't grow it is our illusions grow that means we think I am right you also say I am right but you are chosen as the yes men or yes people around you then how can we grow so we may say we don't grow but how our illusions grow our illusion grows because we think we know the right thing whereas what we know may not be right or it may only be partly right and there is lot more to it than what is actually there for us to learn so it's so important for us if we want to grow to hear from people whose opinions are different from us but that doesn't mean that everything they say is right and that may also mean sometimes that they are still wrong but atleast that willingness to hear means we will grow ok this is where you are coming from this is why you think like this I still disagree with you but now I atleast understand why I think like this otherwise what happens we simply dismiss people who disagree with us as not just foolish but sometimes even we consider them evil evil in the sense that they are perverse and that exactly was what happened to Ravan Ravan not only rejected Vibhishan's counsel Ravan actually rejected Vibhishan himself Vibhishan said if you think I have any ulterior motive you can strip me of all my power he actually took out his crown and kept it before Ravan is free he said please don't reject my advice because that will destroy you and that will destroy all of Lanka and Ravan his head was still echoing his mind was filled with lustful images of Sita his craving for Sita and his head was filled with the boastful words of Indrajeet and others and with all that he just didn't pay attention to anyone he kicked Vibhishan's crown away and Vibhishan got his answer Vibhishan took his crown and took his leave and thus the only dissenting voice in Ravan's echo chamber was lost and thus he is going deeper and deeper into the path to his own destruction now if you consider there are many more warnings he got so after that Shuka and Saran they were the spies of Ravan actually they were the top spies so Ram Vibhishan allied with Ram then they built the bridge they crossed over and when they were in their camp in their camp at that time Shuka and Saran they were sent by Ram to sneak in and observe so Vibhishan soon detected them they had changed their forms and they looked just like monkeys but Vibhishan detected them and Vibhishan had the monkeys arrest them and the monkeys in anger started pounding these demons and on hearing the commotion Ram came over there and Ram told the monkeys let him go and he said you want to see the army you have full freedom go whichever part of my army you want whatever you want you can see it and then give my message to Ravan he says tomorrow morning you will see the full force of my anger soon you will see the full force of my anger return Sita or you will be destroyed and now Ram also wanted to deter if Ravan saw the magnitude of his prowess then if Ravan at least heard about it to Shuka and Saran then maybe that will deter him so Ram allowed him and then Shuka and Saran ran back and they told they told Ravan Ram alone is capable of overthrowing Lanka and accompanying him are great warriors Lakshman and Sugriva and supporting these powerful leaders are countless huge monkeys oh king please return Sita Shuka and Saran were his own men we could say he suspected Vibhishan's loyalty in fact he rejected Vibhishan but Shuka and Saran were his own men now what did he do? he rejected their advice also now why did he reject their advice? because he just dismissed them they are just fearful they are just afraid because you were caught and beaten by the monkeys you have become fearful of that so now to dismiss healthy fears as cowardice is not fearlessness it is foolishness generally if somebody is afraid our tendency will be why is this person afraid and if we think that you know you are just making a big a big thing out of a small thing then we will just dismiss their fear you are a cowardly person but actually if what they have experienced is truly terrifying then to dismiss that as just fear mongering you are just a coward no that is unhealthy so there are healthy fears healthy fears are based on realistic assessment of dangers so somebody might say I am so brave I am not afraid like you sometimes you should be afraid sometimes you may hear talks about how to overcome our fears how to become free from fear well freedom from fear is not that desirable always there are many dangers in life and sometimes fear is what immediately guards us from danger if we look down from a 50 storey building and then we will peer down and suddenly start feeling dizzy I should not look down here so that fear is a protector it is a healthy fear so fear we could say is a biological psychological mechanism within us which protects us from danger now it is not that all the fears give us authentic messages sometimes our fears might be irrational they might not be based on facts but it is not that all fears are bad so rather than saying how can we become free from fear we can say how can we face our fears fear will be there but some fears will deter us from taking wrong choices some fears will be just irrational and then we have to face them properly but in this case this is a rational healthy fear Ram's power was so great but somebody who is telling us don't do this you will get into a lot of trouble he is just a coward he is just making a big thing out of something small if you think like that, that is foolishness and when somebody is foolish like this then it is very difficult to get them on the right track basically if you consider from one perspective that what are the ways in which one human being can influence another human being it is the power of instruction that works on some people it doesn't work on many people we may not have the power to instruct them they may not listen so actually as I talked about earlier about conscience, about intelligence the best way is if we can persuade them now how do we persuade them it is through logic one way is that logic means why this is a bad choice for you one aspect of the bad choice is that it has no consequences but if they dismiss us as just being cowardly then it is they who are actually destroying themselves then after that the next person who warned Ravana was Angad so Shuka and Saran went back and then now the war was going to start the next day at that time Ram decided to make one last proposal and Hanuman was ready to go back go again but Ram said that if we send the same messenger again then they will think that we don't have any other powerful warriors so then he said that Sugriva said I can go you are the king of the monkeys you should not go as a messenger so here just as a passing point we can understand how extraordinary was Krishna's gesture when Krishna in the Mahabharata himself so here they discussed and decided we will send Angad now why Angad? Angad was the prince and he was actually quite young but yet he was very powerful so maybe seeing the youthful power of Angad they will learn so then Ravana was warned by Angad fiercely initially Ravana tried to create a split he said Angad I knew your father he was my friend we had an alliance together it is your uncle who got your brother your father killed isn't it and Ram Ram helped you in that Ram helped Sugriva in that so why are you siding with your father's killers I understand you are a small child and you are alone and powerless that's why you had no option but now you have options now I am there for you you come on my side I will destroy Sugriva we will take avenge of your father's death and I will make you the king of the Vanaras Angad just laughed and he said you are telling me that I am dishonouring my father by siding with my father's killers actually it was my father who told me before he died to serve Sugriva and to serve Ram I will honour his words and I will honour his memory and I have come to warn you that if you don't return Sita you will die so Ravanya scornfully said laughed and he said what can an army of monkeys do to me Angad said you dismiss us as an army of monkeys if I challenge any of your generals he just put his foot forward he placed his leg firmly in front of him and he said just let them budge my foot it was a stunning challenge to issue right in the enemy court and Ravanya just looked at the generals Prahastha got up and he came there and he thought that this monkey is so arrogant I will pick him up, I will pull him I will knock him down and I will kill him and he bent down to pick up and he couldn't even shake he couldn't shake at all he was stunned, he got tired just as Dushyasan was trying to disrobe Draupadi and he was pulling and pulling now pulling a saree is not a very exhausting activity it is just straight forward but he just kept pulling and he was doing it for so long that he got exhausted Draupadi was going round and round she didn't get exhausted because her consciousness was completely absorbed in the Lord so just as there Dushyasan got exhausted just by trying to shake Angada's foot Prahastha got exhausted then Mahodara came one by one the various demons came when Indrajith came none of them could budge Angada's foot and then finally Ravan got up and Ravan came there and as Ravan bent down to catch hold of Angada's foot Angada just moved his hands and knocked Ravan's crown far away he said oh foolish demon if you have to catch anyone's feet catch Ram's feet he will forgive you my challenge was for your demons not for you he said and then he just leapt into the sky and he proclaimed as a parting parting warning he said I am the youngest of the monkey generals and none of your generals could budge even my foot how will they survive against generals far stronger than me you have time till tomorrow morning return Sita or court destruction so again one more warning one more phenomenal demonstration of power this was also not hearing from a second person he is seeing in front of him but still he didn't listen why was that that is the nature of arrogance those who refuse to become humble they won't just be humbled they will be humiliated now what is the difference between humility and humiliation humility is false ego rejected humiliation is false ego frustrated that I don't want to be arrogant I don't want to be proud I don't want to have this false ego that is humility my sense of self-worth doesn't have to come by how much people look up to me how much I can look down how many people I can look down at my sense of self-worth doesn't have to come from that it can come intrinsically from who I am I am a soul I am a part of God that can give us a far healthier sense of self-worth but humiliation is false ego frustrated humiliation means I want to look down at others I want people to look up at me but actually I am lower than them there is nothing for me to rise above others I want to be up there but I am down here everybody is looking down at me now because I was so stupid or I was overpowered that is humiliation and humiliation is extremely painful so for each one of us we have to make a choice whether we will choose humility or we will have humiliation imposed upon us now humility is not easy but humiliation is a million times more difficult we could say that see humility is like a bitter medicine we take to prevent a disease from growing if we don't take the bitter medicine the disease will grow and the pain because of the disease will be far far far greater and then the humiliation that will come at that time sorry the pain because of the disease will be far greater so similarly humility is like the bitter medicine it's bitter but take it if you don't, humiliation will be like the expanded disease the pain will be far far more so unfortunately the lesson was not learned by Ravan and then after that several other people came and warned him even before the war that very night so Angad left with the ultimatum and then two elders came there Malyavan Malyavan was one of the older members of the Rakshasa dynasty and he had been actually the head of the king of the Rakshasas before Ravan took over by sheer prowess and Malyavan he told him that that those whom you mock as mere monkeys they are secret expansions of the gods Sugriva is the son of the sun god Hanuman is the son of Vayu and there is also a portion of Shiva within him Jambavan is Brahma's son Angad is Indra's grandson Mahinda and Dvividha are Ashwini Kumar's sons Neel is Agni's son this is practically the entire pantheon of the top gods they are there in their expansions over here and against such an army of the whole all the gods combined together how will you fight against them and then Malyavan said something more Malyavan knew that Ravan had an ego ego problem so he told him actually the peace proposal has come from the enemy right now and accepting a peace proposal that they have sent will make you look good they have come with a request to you, you grant them their request and you can maintain your honour and you can also maintain your life you can also maintain Lanka return Sita to them but he just didn't listen what was his logic there is an American comedian who said that I have made up my mind now don't confuse me with the facts how dare you confuse me with the facts sometimes what happens is people just live in denial now denial is like a prison but this is a prison in which we lock ourselves from inside and then nobody can open us because the only way that prison door is open is from inside so actually denial is a very serious problem it's not just arrogance arrogance is I believe I am more powerful than what I am but denial means I don't believe that the problem is as big as it actually is so many times when somebody gets a devastating diagnosis say you have got stage 3 or stage 4 cancer for some time people go into denial at that time, this can't be happening to me so it's at one level a normal phase of our emotional reactions but the faster somebody comes out of denial the better it is then actually they can they can deal with the situation but unfortunately if somebody stays in denial then how can they be helped so if somebody is in the prison and they say that there is no light well, you can't see light because you are inside the prison so that is a serious problem so Malnivan neglected his advice also although told him that you saw their prowess and now I am telling you their identity also they are not just some freakish monkeys who have some great power they are actually gods who have descended over there you can't combat them but unfortunately he didn't listen then after that the next person was his father-in-law that is Maya but this is not Maya, this is Maya Danav Maya was the father of Ravana's main wife Mandodari and Maya was the person who was called by Ravana when half of Lanka was burnt by Hanuman he called Maya and Maya Danav worked very hard using all his expert skills and mystic powers and in record time he reconstructed the whole of Lanka and Ravana was grateful to Maya Danav for that and he said I have come with a request to you please don't fight against Ravana return Sita why is everyone so hooked up with just a forest wandering beggar he is so powerless that he couldn't even prevent a conspiracy in his own kingdom he was reduced to a beggar wandering in the forest what can such a person do to me and that time Maya told him that the one whom you dismiss as a forest wandering beggar is the supreme lord Vishnu he has descended on the earth in human form on the request of the gods why just to free them from the terror of the demons but unfortunately how can he be Vishnu he is just an ordinary human being he just didn't listen to him why did he neglect Maya because he just the Bhagavatam says one who doesn't see even when their eyes see some people say that why can't I see God maybe if God comes in front of me and gives me darshan then I will start believing in him I will become more serious spiritually actually to see God we don't need a special sight we need a special insight insight means inside something has to change for us inside our disposition has to change we have to become more receptive we have to become more humble that if we don't develop that humility we don't acknowledge our finiteness just looking up we won't be able to find God in fact it is said that to find God more than looking up we have to look down and we have to look low enough look low enough means what we have to cultivate humility look low enough also means that we have to look to the darkest regions of our heart where we understand how how many impurities are there in our hearts and how difficult it is to overcome them without God so without that insight we can't see God so although he was told that this is God and he had heard about and he had seen so many powerful things but he just didn't accept so with insight we can see God everywhere God is now here he is present in my heart he is present everywhere Andantarastra, Paramanu, Jayantarastra he is inside every atom Prahlad saw him Vishnu everywhere, he saw him in the pillar also God is now here but for Hiranyakashipu he had no insight and therefore God is nowhere he is nowhere at all that's the difference now he refused he was given that insight in the sense that he was given the wisdom by which he would have chosen to have that insight but he refused then finally Mayadana made a desperate plea he said please as a father I beg you I will not be able to live if I see my daughter becoming a widow I will not be able to live if I see my grandsons becoming orphans please I reconstructed Lanka at your request if I have done anything good for you please give me one thing in charity please prevent my daughter from becoming a widow heartfelt request from Maya Ravan instead of seeing the heart and the request coming from the heart he just he became incensed how dare you think that I am going to die he just lost all good sense over there he just exploded in anger he said that if you had not been my father in law if you had not just done such a big favour for me I would have had you punished for what you have spoken just now but because you have done so much for me because I respect you leave right now and that another door to wisdom Ravan slammed it shut now this what Maya told him also has a very significant significance sorry significant importance over here why? because when we do something wrong when we give in to our lower desires it doesn't just hurt us alone it hurts so many people connected with us and in fact nowadays we have a very individualistic culture it's about me, if I want to do it who are you to stop me from doing it well, it's not just about you because you live in a social ecosystem our actions affect others there are those who love us those who care for us those who depend on us and our actions will hurt them enormously and that's why one of the best protectors from our lower desires is healthy relationships not just healthy relationships in the sense that others come and chastise us but if we have healthy relationships then what happens? we care for others, we think about others and whenever any action we are about to do, we think about how it is going to affect our loved ones also and that can actually protect us from lower desires one reason why mental health problems are escalating so much in the world today of course there are many many reasons it's a complicated issue but one reason is that when people are not very well connected with others then when the relationships are not around stable then what happens is if my mind says do this, why should I not do it? so we basically the more we become isolated then basically we become alone with our mind and just keep hearing the mind's voice we don't hear anyone else's voice so even if we don't care about how our actions will affect us how our actions are going to affect others we can think about it and based on that we can try to resist our lower impulses so many of you may have heard that responsibility is response plus ability it is our ability to respond properly but there is another aspect to responsibility see actually when we take responsibility for someone other than ourselves or even for something other than ourselves preferably someone when we take responsibility for someone other than ourselves that responsibility itself improves our responsibility how is that? how does taking responsibility improve our responsibility? that is because so imagine somebody is having a family they have a spouse they have a child and they have a very demanding boss I don't feel like going to work well my mind doesn't feel like going to work but if I have a sense of responsibility my family depends on me even if I don't feel like it, I will do it so that responsibility although my feelings are not the same way but I want to do it if a couple has a newborn baby nobody likes to be disturbed at night when they are sleeping but if the baby cries then the parents wake up the mother or the father and they wake up and take care of the child why? because there is a responsibility actually it is when we take responsibility for things or for people that actually is a very powerful way to resist our lower impulses parents making children is no, adults making children is actually, we could say it's no miracle, it's just natural but children making adults is actually a miracle how do children make adults? when there are children, adults have to become adults they have to take responsibility so if we take up responsibility for others think, how are my actions going to affect others then that will deter us significantly there are few things we all live in a world of great temptations from so many different directions temptations come upon us and sometimes we feel, ok this is just a little thing what is the big thing, let me just enjoy but if we think about how enjoyment will affect others among all the pains that is most disorienting there can be different kinds of pain there can be bodily injury there can be a disease there can be death of a loved one there are various kinds of pains but the most disorienting pain is the pain of betrayal when somebody whom we trust and love they betray us it's extremely disorienting why? because when somebody is betrayed they lose faith not just in the other person they lose faith not just in the goodness of the other person but they lose faith in themselves also am I a trustworthy judge of character, I thought this person was like this and this person turns out to be like this so it's not that that person betrayed me but that means maybe my own judgement is not trustworthy maybe there is something wrong with me itself and there can be few things as immobilising, as crippling as for a person to have that kind of loss of everything that grounds them so if we think of our loved ones and the price that they will have to pay then we will decide ok these indulgences are just forget it I don't want to do this till now there were warnings in terms of people telling him now the warnings are more in terms of events so Kumbhakarna was an extremely powerful demon in fact when he was sleeping for a long time he was forcibly woken up and when he went out to the war field now Lanka was a fortified city so whenever the demons would come out they would open the gates of Lanka and they would charge out but Kumbhakarna was so big that at that time nobody had to actually open the doors Kumbhakarna just stepped over the boundary walls and came out and when he came out the monkeys saw him and they screamed and fell back in terror so huge how can they fight they started running and it's interesting at that time nobody could fight but still Hanuman, Sugriva and other demons fought sorry other monkey dungeons fought and Kumbhakarna devastated all of them but finally he confronted Ram and it was a fierce battle but then Ram killed him then earlier he had been in a sleep from which waking up was difficult but now he went to a sleep from which waking up was impossible Ravan was shocked when he heard that Kumbhakarna had died but yet Ravan was awake but he was in a sleep like state he was dreaming that he could defeat Ram and enjoy Sita dreams don't require us to close our eyes and sleep our mind when we sleep our mind puts us in a dream state our mind can create a dream like illusion around us even when we are awake and that was the state Ravan was in so he saw the death of his own brother and it is first thing is losing somebody who is very close to him they had performed austerities for many many years together they had fought wars together he was not just a friend he was a close family member and yet he was killed so that was the emotional loss along with that there is just the sheer loss of morale that our general who had never been defeated that general has been killed but still even that did not deter Kumbhakarna why is that? because that is the nature of demoniac tendency we all know to err is human to forgive is divine but to err is human to persist in error is demonic so when somebody makes a mistake one mistake we all make two mistakes we all make sometimes but to keep making the same mistake again to never learn that is terrible actually we all commit mistakes in life and usually it is very rarely one mistake that ruins us it is when we don't learn from our mistakes that's what ruins us so we all may sometimes get overcome by our desires our lower desires, our attachments they can just pull us down and what do we do at that time? well what can we do? it's difficult but actually this is what happened I should not get into this kind of temptation because it's overpowering we need to learn from our mistakes but if you don't learn then what can be done? so it was his demoniac tendency that he just persisted in that now after that the next person to fall was Indrajith and Indrajith's fall was unbelievable in fact in some ways Indrajith was more powerful than Ravana also actually in many ways we could say that when Ravana attacked the heavens Indra had defeated Ravana and he had imprisoned Ravana so at that time Ravana's son his name was Meghannath at that time he had marched to the heavens he had defeated Indra he had released Ravana and then he had arrested Indra and he had brought him and kept him as a prisoner in Lanka then Brahmaji himself came and said please release please release Indra otherwise the cosmic order will get disrupted he said ok but what will I get? he said I will give you special blessings and I will also give you what's this? are you able to hear me? yes Prabhu we can hear you yes Prabhu we can hear you so I saw a comment I thought it was I think it's a question yeah so thank you so then Indrajith had actually defeated Indra, Ravana had not so at that time he said let me get the epithet Indrajith Indrajith had told Brahma and let me get some special power so he had got some special power at that time now in the battle with Ram also Indrajith had defeated Ram and Lakshman once and that was the time when Garuda came and Garuda actually rejuvenated them then again he had again knocked down Lakshman that was the time when Hanuman went and got the Jadibuti the medicinal herbs from the Himalayas so he had defeated the top most opponents now Ravana had actually knocked out Lakshmana but Ravana had never knocked down Ram so Indrajith is more powerful than him and yet Lakshman killed Indrajith and he killed him effortlessly thoroughly he was defeated not effortlessly, effortfully but thoroughly eventually he was defeated and then what happened was as I said lust made him blind but pride kept him blind one of the problems when lust takes over our consciousness it refuses to consider the cost of indulgence now whatever it is I want this, I don't care about the cost but after that pride refuses to acknowledge that the cost is too much initially I thought okay it's okay whatever it is I'll pay but it's becoming too much now no I shouldn't do this but pride refuses to acknowledge that and that was his tragedy over here he lost his own son and yet he just didn't accept it then after that the last person to warn him was Mandodari she came crying to him her own son had been killed he said that you know all your queens they have already become orphans they have already lost their sons and today I lost my son but there are so many widows and childless mothers brotherless sisters failing our kingdom he says how many more lives will you offer in the fire that is your lust for Sita our topic is the fire of desire so the fire of desire can either burn within us and it can burn us or it can burn our impurities so it not only burns us but it also burns those who are because Ravana was a powerful king so he sent his citizens, he sent his whole army to death so she begged to him how many more sacrifices are you going to offer please stop this begged him but unfortunately now Ravana gave a very twisted logic here what is logic he said how will I face those who died how Indrajeet was my son and he died for my cause if I quit the cause now then eventually one day I am going to die and when in the next world I will meet Indrajeet what face will I show him what will I say I decided that I sent all of you to death but I was too cowardly so I decided not to die so see what is the twisted logic here he is thinking about how he will face people in the next life but he is not thinking about the people in this life who are there in front of him how will can he face all the people who have lost their loved ones all the people who are maimed all the losses that have happened what about this life sometimes some people get consumed by revenge you killed my relative I am going to kill you but don't live for those who are dead live for those who are alive so sometimes vendetta just goes on and on so this is rationalising when we rationalise we tell rational lies rational lies that means we use our intelligence to justify our intelligence rather than to rectify it so this is it is one thing to have strong desire it is another thing to have arrogance by which one refuses to see the consequences of what one is doing it is quite another thing to use our intelligence to justify what one is doing if you know the sequence of how we get tempted and fall as Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita ध्यायतो विशयान पुम्सः संगस्ते शूप जायते संगात संजायते कामः कामात क्रोधो भिजायते क्रोधात भवति सम्मोह सम्मोहात स्मुति विब्रम स्मुति ब्रमशात बुद्धि नाशो बुद्धि नाशात प्रणश्यति so in the sequence Krishna says when we contemplate desire develops that is actually psychological principle whatever gets our attention gets us so the desire starts growing, growing, growing and eventually the last thing to fall Krishna says is intelligence and once intelligence falls we fall, बुद्धि नाशात प्रणश्यति so the intelligence can not just fall it's one thing that means the intelligence says I can't resist the desire, I'll give in but it's worse, intelligence can not only fall but actually intelligence can rise and start fighting against us, Krishna says that lust resides not just in the senses but also the mind and the intelligence इन्द्रियानिमनो बुद्धिरमस्यादिष्ठानमुच्छते अस्यादिष्ठानमुच्छते अस्यादिष्ठानमुच्छते it resides in all these senses the mind and the intelligence so when we say that kama, self destructive desire resides in the intelligence means what that it takes over the intelligence and instead of trying to restrain ourselves or rectify that particular mentality to indulge we start justifying it when Krishna says that happens then it's all we fall after that, intelligence is our last guard so then after this what happened was Ravan unfortunately lost his way, eventually he soon died, Manduri lamented she was shattered after his death but she still knew that he himself had quoted that death so Dasara is the festival when we burn Ravan as effigy and it is not just an effigy of Ravan to be burned but actually we want the Ravan like desires within us to be burnt and now how do we do that, we can talk about purifying ourselves but our focus we will just mention one point here and then we'll discuss more about purifying and channelling our desires later but how do we reform ourselves, see we may not have purity but we can still have humility humility in this context means the readiness to learn how to become pure, okay, I'm not pure right now and these desires are so powerful I can't control them but still maybe there is a way to control them, maybe there is a way to purify myself, I'm ready to learn that, so sometimes this is just the way I am and you may think okay I'm so conditioned, I'm so fallen this is just the way I am, you may think I'm being humble but to say this is just the way I am is not humility it is pride pretending to be humility why? because basically we are saying that I don't want to change and we are masking it as I can't change, so pride means that I'm not ready to submit myself to learn to put in some efforts so that I can improve now it is said that everybody has to be a fool before they become wise, what that means is and if you want to become wise in terms of you want to learn something we have to acknowledge that I don't know this that is the stage when we have to be foolish before we can become wise, so similarly, yeah this is just the way I am, I have tried, I'm not able to control this I'm not able to become free myself free myself from this, but is there a way I want to learn so that is humility and when you don't have that humility this is just the way I am that is unfortunate but instead of saying this is just the way I am, we think you know, God can make me somewhat better, we can look at those who are more spiritually evolved than us those who are ethically stronger than us those who are more devoted than us this is what I can also become this is what God can make me if I let him do it if I submit to him, then he can do this we don't have to see lust only in moral terms we can also see it in medical terms, medical terms means what? it's a disease and just the expert doctor can cure the disease, Krishna is the expert doctor, he can cure it we need to let him cure it so there are times when we can see our failings in moral terms, but there are times when you can see it in more objective or medical terms, and here if we have this attitude, Krishna can I may not be able to change myself but Krishna can change me that is confident humility confident humility means that actually I am humble, I don't have power but God has power and I have confidence in him, and actually confident humility is what is embodied by Hanuman Hanuman about whom we will talk in our next session he embodies how desire can become so powerfully good when it is directed for the service of the Lord and Hanuman, he had great courage, he had great confidence when he single handedly went to Lanka, when he challenged Ravana so that was there but throughout he was humble so he is confident humility and how we can develop that confident humility, we will learn in our next session, so I will summarise what I spoke today I spoke today in the topic of the power of desire in that the power of misdirected desire so how Ravana had ten heads but he had zero brains, and in that I talked about one by one he got ten warnings but he didn't take even one of those warnings we will quickly recap those warnings, the first was he got a warning from Maricha and that deterred him, but that deterrence was because of fear of consequence and a better deterrence is power of conscience so when Shurpanakha infatuated him by her provocative descriptions of Sita's beauty then I don't care of the consequence, I just want this so morality based on fear of consequence is short lived then after that things went fast forward and then he abducted Sita, then Hanuman warned him Hanuman told him that if you don't return Sita the way I have devastated Lanka you don't have protection from monkeys or humans and your army, the army that will come to you will be full of monkeys and humans and Hanuman's words fell on blind ears Ravana was too arrogant, he just couldn't accept that why he couldn't accept that? because he felt that I know what is what so he ended up just staying or refusing to learn so he thought that in the past I have won, so I will win now also so yesterday's battles don't guarantee us victories today we have to see how strong we are today and how strong our opponents are today then Vibhishan warned him and Vibhishan told him that that Ram alone defeated your whole entire army at Janasthan and Hanuman alone wrecked our city how can you fight against them? but he neglected Vibhishan, he heard Prahastha, Indrajith and others instead so if we only hear those who say what we want to hear, then we don't grow, it's only our illusions that grow so important for us to hear from those whose perspectives are different from us, that's how we learn then I talked about Shuk and Saran that they were terrorised they said that there are so many powerful enemies powerful generals, you cannot fight against them and he said because you are beaten, so you are simply fearful and if there are healthy fears and somebody dismisses healthy fears as fearfulness as cowardice, then they are not being fearless, they are being foolish so that's what then we talked about after Shuk and Saran there was Angada and none of his generals could even budge Angada's foot and then he refused to become humble before Ram, he was about to bend down, Angada, don't bend down before me, bend down before Ram, but he refused to and then he ended up humiliated so humility is false ego rejected, I don't want my sense of self worth doesn't come by how many people I can look down upon humiliation is I want to look down at others, but actually I have gone down and everybody is looking down at me that's false ego frustrated then Malyawan cautioned him by telling him about how all the monkeys are expansions of the devatas monkey generals, but he was living in denial I made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts so denial is like a prison in which we lock ourselves and we can't come out, then Maya told him that he is Vishnu Ram is Vishnu, but he just rejected accepting that, so to see God, he could see Ram in front of him but still he couldn't see because even though he had sight, he didn't have insight so for us we need insight with insight God is now here, without insight God is nowhere then the next was an event Kumbhakarna's death, but still he didn't accept because he was so demoniac he was stuck on a particular path he said no, to err is human, to persist in error is demoniac that was the demoniac, then Indrajith fell Indrajith was more powerful than him Nathan Indrajith fell and why did he neglect Indrajith was because he had become blinded by pride, lust refuses to consider the consequences of indulgence and pride refuses to acknowledge the consequences are too high, then lastly Mandodari, she told him how many more of our family and our generals and soldiers will you have them burn in the fire that is your lust for Sita no, my son has died, please stop now and he said how can I face my son after I have caused his death in the next world he was rationalising so if our intelligence falls, then we fall and then lastly we discussed that how do we reform ourselves we can't have purity immediately but we can have humility to learn how to develop purity and we may say this is just the way I am, nothing works for me, that is actually not humility, that is pride masking as humility, why because we have to we have to become a fool before we can become wise and becoming a fool doesn't mean literally we are foolish but we take the humble position that is not easy for our ego but if we do that then we can learn and a devotee has confident humility that Krishna can elevate me, that Krishna can transform me, Krishna can liberate me no matter how fallen I am and Hanuman embodies that confident humility and we will discuss about Hanuman in our next session thank you very much, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, thank you okay, so I see one question there so now what is the evidence that Ramayana actually happened it depends on firstly what do we mean by evidence if we are looking at historical evidence in terms of archaeological evidence then we have to understand that it's millennia ago the earth surface keeps changing enormously and because of that what has happened millennia ago India is also in the tropical part of the world so remains don't stay so if we consider it's very difficult to find any architectural remains from the Ramayana's time perspective but there are other ways of knowing so we could generally how do we know about history any historical any historical reality so how do we know for example Buddha existed so we have maybe as I said some architectural remains of some activity that he had done that was 2005 or 100 years ago that's possible but another way is there is what is called concurrence of evidence that there are other sources so there are followers of Buddha if he says Buddha existed they could have made up that legend about him but if there are critics of Buddha and they say Buddha existed but Buddha was wrong now if there are critics of Buddha if they go a bit that Buddha never existed they could say that Buddha didn't exist this whole thing is just a fairy tale but if they don't take that tack that means probably at their times when Buddha came out 2500 years ago so after that there has been healthy intellectual debates between Buddhists and Jains and what we now call as Hindus more of Vedic followers at that time the word Hindu was not there but there were debates but nobody for example has said that Buddha didn't exist that's one way by the versions of the critics what do they say so the Ramayana has been also there have been critics of Ramayana there are Jains who have criticised Ramayana Buddhists who have criticised Ramayana but not one of them has ever said that Ram didn't exist the same applies to Krishna also of course but they never took that argument because if you consider just the last 1000 years India has been devastated far more than the previous several thousand years also there are so many so much architecture was destroyed so much literature was burned especially when the Islamic invaders came to India so they did devastate a lot of things so that means if you consider thinkers from pre-Islamic invasion times none of them has not one of the thinkers at that time has ever doubted the existence of Ram so in general from historical perspective the sources which are antagonistic to a particular person they are considered quite credible if they are not saying it's a myth then it's unlikely that it's a myth at that time they had reasonable grounds to believe that Ram was a historical person as far as further archaeology is concerned there is Ayodhya, there is Lanka and there is as you mentioned something called Adam's bridge which some people say is Ramasetu now how exactly are we going to correlate that what we call as Ayodhya was actually the same Ayodhya there is there is what is called as Loka Praman there is a long tradition of saints and devotees and worshippers who have considered that place to be holy so now for those who are insiders that evidence is enough for those sceptics for those outsiders that evidence may not be enough so I would say that in general why do we need to establish why do we need to discuss this question at all why is it important for us there are certain religions in the world which are very history centred because there are particular historical events that happened at particular time this is not to criticise any particular religion but there will be no Christianity if Jesus had not descended and Jesus had not been crucified so that is a defining event not just like a foundational event there will be no Christianity without Jesus crucifixion but there would be Bhakti even without Ram without Krishna, not without their existence but without their descent because Bhakti is a universal longing of the human heart so although Ram and Krishna they are historical persons who have descended but what they teach are timeless principles of living Dharma itself means our essential nature it is activity that harmonises with our essential nature so history centrism has never been a central part of the Vedic tradition and that's why when we are if when we are discussing with anyone we need to check whether we want to whether the rules of the game are a set fair so if somebody is playing their games according to different rules and those rules put us at a disadvantage then we have to check whether these rules do apply over here or not so in our tradition we are talking about timeless truths the timeless principles of living they don't depend on particular historical events of course certain historical events can enormously inspire us no doubt those principles don't depend on those events without Jesus crucifixion at least the mainstream version of Christianity is that nobody could be saved but the principles of Bhakti they are eternal they just manifested more at particular times in history now another point is again why is history so important in the western Judeo-Christian conception and that is more or less the modern mainstream conception time is linear time is going from place A to place B and that's why because time is linear and time is progressive that is their idea that's why what happened when is important whereas in the Vedic conception history is circular time, history is not going anywhere when there is Satyuga, Treta Yuga, Kali Yuga, Draupadi Yuga, Kali Yuga and then again Satyuga and we see in general in nature history, time is cyclic there is morning, there is noon there is evening, there is night again there is morning there is summer depending on which part of the world in India it is summer, rainy season, winter in other parts of the world there are four seasons but the seasons go round and round so time goes round and round so within the Vedic tradition historicity that is exact historical times when something happened that is not considered very important because the underlying conception of time itself is history is not going anywhere history is just going round and round but by learning from history we can go somewhere by learning from history we can elevate our consciousness and we can go somewhere, we can go to higher destination, we can go to eternal destination so that is primary what we where we are going that is important and in history at different times there are different different events that happen and different truths are demonstrated so I would say historicity for things that have happened millennia ago is something which is which is a demand it is not that the Ramayan tradition itself is inadequate but rather the very nature of the earth, the very nature of the empirical method the very nature of modern approaches to history and historiography they are inadequate to trace back what happened millennia ago and that is why we don't have to get too caught in this particular question so thank you very much for your attention and participation and we will discuss about how to channel the power of desire constructively in our next session Hare Krishna Thank you so much Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai Jai.