Focus on potentials, not on problems

[Talk at North Carolina State University, USA] PPT: Video:

I wish we can continue the discussion as long as we can. Thank you very much for coming today, Ming. And I apologise for being late.

So we'll focus on the potential, not the problem. Not the problem of being late, but the potential of what we can do with the remaining time that we have now with us. So, I got this first experience when I was about 12, of the power of attitude.

We all heard about it at different times in our life. But it was at this particular time, I didn't verbalise it that way, but, is this on? Okay. Do I need to press it like this or? Okay.

Yeah. That actually our attitude towards a problem determines the effect of that problem on us. At one time, I was, when I was a student, I loved to play chess.

And I was a part of our school team, which would go and participate in competitions. And just before, I was supposed to be leading our team to a competition. Just before that, I felt sick.

I felt so upset. I got some flu, some fever. I felt so upset.

I had practised for months and years, and that was supposed to be a big breakthrough for me. And while that was, I was just beating myself up, feeling upset about the way things had turned out. Then at that time, a friend came and gave me a book.

Which I had been wanting to read for a long time. This was India in the 1990s. And there was no Amazon at that time.

So, it was a book published in America. So, getting that book was not easy. I had been wanting to get it for a long time.

And somehow he unexpectedly brought it at that time and gave it to me. I was so happy to see that book. And then for the next 5-6 hours, I was reading that book.

And then, after that, a friend just came to meet me. He says, I'm sorry that you couldn't go for the competition. Are you okay? I said, what competition? I realised I had completely forgotten about it.

So, what that incident, as I said, I didn't verbalise it that way at that time, but actually it is life that determines our problems. But it is the way we approach them, what we think of, where we direct our thought energy, that determines the size of those problems. So, life determines our problems.

We determine their size. And we determine their size by how we think about them and how much we think about them. So, for me at that particular situation, obsessing over the fact that I could not go for that competition would have been useless.

Normally, if we consider, if it's a physical problem, if we have, say, if we have to carry a trolley from the airport, if it's a heavy trolley, then the more we push, the more energy we apply, the further the trolley will go. So, the distance covered is proportional to the energy applied. That's how it works in the physical domain.

But in the domain of thoughts, it doesn't work like that. It is not that the more we think about a problem, the more we come up with a solution to the problem. If we consider a correlation with respect to physical problems, it's straight linear correlation.

The more energy, the greater the moment that will be there. But with respect to problems that affect us emotionally, mentally, the graph, we could say, it rises up linearly, attains a plateau and then falls down. That means when we have a problem, we do need to think about it.

If we just impulsively, thoughtlessly respond to it, that response can itself aggravate the problem. But when we think about it, at a particular point, we come to optimum. After that, thinking about it doesn't help with dealing with it.

It just seems to go, our thoughts don't seem to go anywhere. And then after some time, if we keep thinking, rather than leading to greater clarity, it leads to greater apathy, greater resentment. So actually, the problem, far from being solved, it becomes aggravated.

One of my friends is a painter and he is telling me that when you are painting, there is a particular point at which the painting looks the best. Any few strokes less doesn't look good. And a few strokes more, also doesn't look good.

You have to stop at the right point. So underpainting is a problem, overpainting also is a problem. I also write books and I have friends with many people who are writers.

So there is one author, one of my friends, who consulted many, many people before finalising his book. And he took their inputs from everyone and then finally he told me, now I don't know whether it is my book or someone else's book. Because when you take so many people's opinions, then the one's voice and one's message, we get lost in that.

So just like there can be under-editing and there can be over-editing. There is over-editing, then the person gets, the voice and the message gets choked. So something similar applies to thinking.

So all of us in our life face problems. And we do need to think about problems. Otherwise we cannot deal with them.

But how we think about the problem can be a part of the solution or it can become a part of the problem itself. So what do I mean by, I think this is a part of the problem now. What do I do exactly? As I mentioned, our thought energy, if it is dissipated, then life determines our problems.

But we determine the size. If we keep thinking again and again and again of something that has gone wrong in our life, then we just get drained out by it. It is something like, suppose we see a sports match in which some very exciting event has happened.

Or if we see a movie in which there are some very captivating scenes. Then we may want to replay those scenes again and again and again. Because we want to get every drop of pleasure through that.

So those replays give pleasure. But suppose there are some ghastly horrible scenes and somebody keeps replaying them again and again and again. We say, stop it now, move on.

Sometimes some unpleasant, unsavoury scenes are there. We say, I just don't want to see this, just move fast forward. But our mind often does the opposite.

It just keeps replaying the negative that has happened. And as it keeps replaying, the problem seems to become bigger and bigger. So this is the important thing to understand about our thoughts.

That the problem is here, we are here, our thoughts are here. Our thoughts have no power over us till we give them our thought. What do I mean by this? Our thoughts have no power over us till we give them our thought.

It means that firstly the word thought can be used in two different senses. One is, I have given this a lot of thought. The second is, I just got a thought.

Do you notice the difference? I just got a thought means something has popped up inside us. Some idea, something has popped up. I just got a thought.

I have given this a lot of thought means, I have contemplated it. I have analysed it. And I have come to some understanding in this.

So when a thought pops up within us, ok this problem is there. It's like a pop-up on a screen on our device, phone or computer. When it pops up, at that time, say we are studying for an exam and suddenly we get a notification.

Our friend has changed their cover photo. Or anything, oh I want to see what photo they have put. And then we see that, hey this photo looks nice, where did they get that photo? We start going on a timeline and seeing, ok did they get it here? What were they doing over here? And one click leads to another, to another, to another.

We spend hours, which we could have used for studying, then we get distracted. So now when the window notification pops up over there, it's up to us to decide whether we look at it or not. So our thoughts have no power on us till we give them power by our thought, by thinking about it.

That means the first level, a thought is like a pop-up window that comes on our screen. And the second is when we click on it. So basically for us, when we are facing problems, the thought of the problem is like a pop-up within us.

And then if we click on it, it will just consume our consciousness. And we may overthink the problem and create trouble for ourselves. So to understand these two meanings of the word thoughts and to get a better sense of the inner dynamics, I'll offer a model of the self and then I'll talk about, I'll describe a thought experiment that we can do.

So basically if we consider our existence, this is a model based on the ancient yoga text, the Bhagavad Gita. It explains that our existence is three level, body, mind and consciousness. And this is like the hardware, the software and the user.

Within this, if we consider we, the consciousness are the observers. So I got a thought means a thought popped up on the mind. I've given this a lot of thought means I've analysed this.

So when a pop-up comes up, we think carefully, do I need to click it right now? Should I click it later? I don't need to click this at all. So that's the two meanings of the word thoughts. And so when we talk about problems, there may be a problematic situation at the level of physical reality.

Yes, I've got a project guide who is very demanding or I don't have, I have to deal with the subject and I'm not so good in the subject. My health is not good. There can be real problems out there at the physical level and that we have to address practically.

But at the mental level, our approach towards the problems will determine how well we can address those problems. So we are going to focus on this mental level. Go ahead.

So let's do a thought experiment now. Wherever you are, you can sit comfortably and close your eyes. With your eyes closed, now you can take three deep breaths.

Now, as your deep breathing is going on, observe your own body. Think of which all parts of the body are tense and try to relax them. A simple way to do this is to first do the opposite.

You can take your right hand's fist and clench it as tightly as possible. And as you clench it, take a deep breath and when you release the breath, release the clenched fist. As the breath goes out, you feel your body relaxing.

Repeat it once again. Clench your fist, take a deep breath, release the breath, unclench the fist. As you observe, your body seems to be relaxing.

Now, add one more element to this exercise. Visualise your hand on your mind's eye as you are clenching it and as you are unclenching it. And you can not only sense through the sensation and the touch, but see with your mind's eye also how your hand and your fist is tightening and relaxing.

So once again, breathe in, tighten your fist, visualise all this on your inner screen and breathe out and unclench. Do it once again. As you observe your hand on the inner screen, you can feel the tension within you going down further.

Try this once more. Now, as you are looking at the hand on your inner screen, you observe your hand tightening into a fist. Breathe in, breathe out, unclench the hand.

Feel the tension going out of your body. And notice that you can sense your hand as it is relaxing. And you can see your hand in front of you in your mind's eye.

And there also you can see the hand unclenching and relaxing. There is the physical hand which is below you. There is the mental representation of the hand which is in front of you.

And there is you who is the observer of both the hand and the mental representation of the hand. So the hand is a part of the physical you. And the visual image of the hand that you saw on your screen, that is a part of the mental you, that is your mind.

And the seer of both of them is the spiritual you, the real you, the consciousness. You can take one deep breath and then you can open your eyes. Thank you.

So let's look at this once again. So what I explained just now, whenever we perceive things, there is the outer scene. Say you are looking at me, I am looking at you.

Then there is the inner screen. And there is the inner seer. So the outer screen is the mind.

The inner seer is the soul, the consciousness. Most of the times when we face problems, we are caught in looking at the outer screen. This is the problem, so I have to deal with it.

But the inner screen can distort our perception. And it can make a problem seem to be bigger than what it actually is. And seeing that magnified problem can discourage us.

To get another example of this dynamic, how it works. Say, after this programme, suppose you have some nice food. Don't suppose you have food after this programme.

But suppose there is a nice desert. Would any of you like to share what is your favourite desert? Jalebi. Most of you probably would not know what a jalebi is.

You know? Anyone else knows? I want you to visually be able to visualise the desert. Some desert which everybody is familiar with. Anyone else? Doughnuts.

So now, suppose somebody loves doughnuts. And they have come for a programme. And they know in that programme, at the end, as a part of the feast, doughnuts are there.

And throughout the programme they are waiting. When will the doughnuts be there? When will the doughnuts come? And then, when the feast is served, they find there are no doughnuts. What happened? What happened? They come to know that, oh, actually, the person who was bringing the doughnuts, he slipped and fell down.

And all the doughnuts spilled off. Oh, he will feel disappointed. He will feel annoyed.

He will feel anger. But suppose in that same programme, there is someone who has just a couple of days ago been diagnosed with diabetes. And they love doughnuts.

And they know that there are doughnuts in the programme. And it is going to be torture for them. To see everybody else eating doughnuts and they not be able to eat because of their diabetes.

And when they come to know there are no doughnuts. What is their reaction? Relief. So the event is the same.

But it is the conception in the mind, the inner screen, that determines our emotion. Our emotions and our experiences are determined not just by the events. But also by our expectations or our conceptions of that event.

Therefore, if we understand this, the problem is out there at the level of the outer scene. But the problem can be magnified or minimised by how it appears on the inner screen. And to do this, we need to understand that I am different from the outer screen.

And I am different from the outer scene. And I am different from the inner screen. I am the observer of both.

Like in the thought exercise, you observed your hand in terms of sensitive, relaxing and tensing. But then you also saw it. So basically, if you understand that every experience of ours, especially every major experience, it has these three levels.

Then we can learn to deal with our problems in a more productive way. By shifting our focus more positively. So what does it mean? When we say that we can focus on potentials, not on problems.

This is that actually what matters most is that there is a problem out there. But our perception, that's what we can change. So even if we can't be grateful for all situations, we can be grateful in all situations.

The difference between the two is what we are focussing on. Sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes terrible problems are there.

And we just can't do much about it. The problems are there. So we can't possibly be grateful for all situations because bad things happen in life.

But when these bad things happen, we can choose to focus not on that situation but on the bigger picture. I was in Sydney a few months ago and there I met a person. He has survived 17 cancer attacks till now.

He had cancer, he did some chemotherapy or radiotherapy and cancer went off, it relapsed. So last 17 years, it's like every year cold season comes, so every year he has a cancer season. Cancer comes, he takes therapy, it goes.

Cancer comes, therapy, it goes. But when I talked with him, I was amazed, he was so positive. So positive.

And he told me that when this cancer came for the first time, it was terrible. I was so depressed, I was so dejected. But then he was also practising spirituality.

And when he was practising spirituality, he read in the texts of Bhakti Yoga, of how throughout history great people, great saints have also suffered. And he read about one particular great saint. And he felt that that saint, instead of focussing on the problem, just turned towards the divine.

Focused on the divine and he was able to tolerate that problem. So he said, I tried to do that. So after talking with him, I tried to analyse what he had done.

And I tried to put in my own thought process. So I came up with an acronym. What does it mean? That we can be grateful in all situations.

How can we be grateful in all situations? So this is a three-point acronym, ICE. So that is, when bad things have happened, we can look at the good in spite of the bad. Then we can look at that good which helps us to counter the bad.

And then we can look at the good that may emerge from the bad. So ICE, in spite of, counter and emerge. So what does this mean practically? It means that for all of us, if we look at our life, bad things have happened.

But many good things have also happened in our life. We all have certain abilities. We all have certain resources.

And there are many good things if you look at them. Either we can choose to count our problems or we can count our blessings. And we count our blessings, then at that time, look at all the good things that have been happening in my life.

That itself creates positive. Life is not so rotten. Life is not so unfair.

Many good things have also happened in my life. When I was about less than one, my parents took me to a doctor. I was living in a remote town in India.

And at that time, there was the danger of people getting polio. So the government recommended that we do vaccination. So my parents went to a doctor and gave the vaccine to me.

I don't remember all this, but my parents told me later. But somehow, the doctor who was supposed to give the vaccination, that doctor had messed up the vaccine. He had not kept it properly in the fridge.

So the vaccine, after they gave it to me, the vaccine instead of protecting me from the polio, the vaccine gave me the polio. And then the next day, I was just walking along. I had just learned to walk a few days.

I was walking along and suddenly I fell down. I could never walk normally after that. And then as I grew up over the years, now I use crutches, earlier I was using braces for walking.

So after about 15, 20, 25 years, I once went to address a group of people who were physically handicapped. And I was talking, I gave a talk on how spirituality can help us to overcome our limitations. And then after that, I was talking with them.

And one thing struck me, that most of them were still fighting battles that they'd already lost. Fighting battles that they'd already lost means that something terrible had happened. They'd lost a limb.

Some of them had lost their eyes. Some of them had lost their speech. Some of them had lost their ears.

It seems to be very insensitive to speak like this. It's a great loss. But it's done and gone.

If you keep fighting a battle that is already lost, why did this happen to me? If only I had done this, this wouldn't have happened. If only this had been done, it wouldn't have happened. So then I started looking back at my life and I don't remember resenting what had happened to me too much.

And I was wondering about it, I introspected a little bit and I realised that as I grew up, my parents never made me feel in any way deficient. My parents never made me feel that actually I was deficient or I was weak. My parents would say that whatever you lack in physical ability, you have been blessed with in intellectual ability.

So I have no memory of walking normally and when I come anywhere, the crutches are what people see most. But for me, my crutches are like my glasses. They are just a part of me.

But if we start using glasses, how often do we notice that we have glasses? We need it, but we move on with it. So here, what struck me at that time is that for all of us, when bad things happen, nobody wants bad things to happen. But if we keep obsessing over that, then we can't move on with life.

If we are fighting a battle that is already lost, what are we going to gain by it? We all have certain expectations of life and our expectations can help us to shape life positively. So here I am talking about these two points, in spite of and counter. So good in spite of the bad.

That means if we keep looking at the bad, why did this have to happen? Why did this have to happen? Then we can't see anything positive that may be there in our life. The bad is there, it is there, it is over now. Sometimes, as I said, if we have expectations in life, the expectations can help us to shape reality.

If I study and I want to come first in my class, I want to get this much GPA, then that inspires me to study, to perform, to do whatever is required. But sometimes life just throws a curveball at us and say we are here, our expectations are here, the reality is here. So expectations are what come at the level of the inner screen and the reality is at the level of the physical scene.

Suppose somebody wanted to learn rowing and they wanted to exhibit their skills to their friends and loved ones. How nicely I have learned to row, how swiftly, how smoothly, how gracefully. And they have spent weeks and months learning and then they call their friends.

Come and see. And then they get into the boat and they are rowing and suddenly a monster wave comes from nowhere and the wave just knocks everything. Now the boat is not there, the oars are also not there and they keep paddling, keep moving their hands.

They will sink. Isn't it? At that time, the thing is okay, life's changed now. They have to simply swim back and get to safety and later on they can see how to deal with that.

But if they are caught, why did this happen? I planned to row, I was going to row elegantly. Well, without any oars, without any boat, if you keep rowing, it's not just stupid, it's suicidal. We'll drown.

So basically, the expectations are meant to help us shape reality. If you have a dream, this is how I'm going to graduate, I'm going to get this degree and I'll show the photo to my friends, this and that. These dreams, we have these expectations and they help us to shape reality.

That's good. In that sense, expectations can help us. But sometimes, if reality changes drastically, then holding on to the expectations simply wastes our energy.

We are here, the expectations are here, the reality is here. The expectations can help us to shape the reality. But if the expectations simply come in the way of our dealing with reality, if our expectations make us deny reality, then we end up, we are caught in dealing with the expectations.

Why didn't this happen? Why didn't this happen? But the reality is different. So we need to have this psychological flexibility. The flexibility by which we can distance ourselves from our expectations and focus on the reality.

Having expectations is not the problem. But being attached to the expectations is the problem. Psychological rigidity means our thoughts get locked in our expectations.

If somebody is rigid, they just don't bend. So psychological rigidity means we get locked into our expectations and that psychological rigidity prevents us from dealing with reality. Psychological flexibility means I had these expectations, but now reality is different.

So I withdraw my thoughts from the expectations and focus them on the reality. So this capacity can be developed if we do this thought exercise. So look at the good in spite of the bad.

Okay, this bad thing has happened, but this was good, this was good, this was good, this was good in my life. And then look at the good that helps us to deal with the bad, that helps us to counter the bad. So I was talking with this friend who had got cancer so many times.

He told me that I look at the good and I said that I have health insurance, I have overall good health, I have a very supportive family, I have a helpful community around me, the particular kind of cancer that I have, it is curable. So he looked at all those positives and that helped him to deal with it. So if we are studying for a particular career and somehow we are not getting through in that career, then we may decide, okay, this is not working, still I am young, I am willing to work hard, I have intelligence and I can find some way forward.

So if we focus on the bad only, we disempower ourselves. So the first is a general habit that we need to develop. Generally try and make a habit of counting our blessings.

What are the good things that have happened in my life? Habit of becoming negative, of obsessing over problems. Then keep that list with us readily and count it and look at it periodically. And then when we have this list ready, when a problem comes up, then make a short list from that list of which of these blessings can help me to deal with this problem.

And then we don't feel so powerless. Although that has happened, but we don't feel so powerless. And the third is that if we are patient, sometimes from the bad, good can emerge.

It's not that the bad thing is good, but every bad thing, it can be like a fire that burns us to ashes. Or it can be a fire that cleanses us and makes us shine further. If something is, if we put wood in fire, the wood will burn to ashes.

But if we put gold in fire, then the gold will shine further. The gold won't burn to ashes, but the gold will shine further. Similarly, we all can choose whether we want to be like wood or whether we want to be like fire.

Sorry, like gold. The fire is the problem that we are going to face. And we are all going to be put in fire sooner or later.

We can't avoid that. And this is where the spiritual worldview comes into the picture. Our spirituality helps us to understand that we are not like the wood.

Yes, there is wood around us, but we are the gold within. At the level of the body, at the level of the mind, many things can go wrong. But we are not any of these things.

We are different from this. We are different from our situations. We are different from our emotions.

We are the inner seers. We are the consciousness. We are the indestructible spiritual being.

And realising this, realising our spirituality is a vital opportunity and a vital power that we all can have. So this is where our consciousness comes into the picture. Say, all of you are young, you are planning now, in future you have a job and you can have a lot of money.

As a spiritualist, I travel across the world as a spiritual teacher and I have met thousands of people. And I have talked with people who are billionaires and people who are average middle class or even lower middle class people. And what I have seen is that there is no clear correlation and many sociologists have also said this that if below the poverty line, if there is no money, people are in distress.

And from below the poverty line to above the poverty line, there is a linear correlation between money and happiness. But beyond that, it's very wild. Sometimes a wealthy person may be very happy, sometimes a wealthy person may be miserable.

Sometimes a poor person, some middle class person may be happy, some middle class person may be miserable. So actually what determines happiness and distress is not how much money we make but what we make with the money. Money is a resource, it's an important resource.

But it is simply a resource. Similarly, grades which are our tools so that we can get a job so when we see things in proper perspective, this is a resource, I need it but it doesn't define me. It doesn't define me.

That we, our self-worth, when we understand our spirituality that we are that consciousness, we are that inertia, then we understand that our self-worth is greater than our net worth. Whatever we may earn, that doesn't define us. That defines one part of us.

GPA doesn't determine our self-worth. We are different from it. Yes, this is matters, so we will invest our energy in that but we won't reduce our self-conception to that.

The various process of spirituality, can you go ahead? So how do we, as I said I have concluded this part now, three Ps, that when we have a particular problem, as I said we shift our vision to how we can deal with the problem, how we can be grateful amidst the situation. If we can't be grateful for the situation, we can be grateful in the situation. Then after that, we want to look, how do I deal with the situation practically? So we can look at these three things.

First P, potential is what am I good at? The world may tell us, you have to be like this, you have to be like that, you have to be like that, you have to become what the world is telling us to become. We look inwards to see, what am I good at? And secondly, what do I feel strongly about? All of us are meant to make a contribution. So in the world there are many problems, in our life also there are many problems.

We can't solve all of them. But that doesn't mean that we just feel sorry for ourselves and don't deal with any of them. We focus on that which we can deal with.

What do we feel strongly about? That by doing this, I am going to make a contribution. That I can make a difference by this. So if you look at this, the potential, the problem and the process.

Somebody may feel that, I saw my relative when I was a small child dying because of not having proper medical care. I want to become a doctor in order to offer medical care. So that's a potential.

Am I good at science? Am I good at biology? There is a problem, there is a potential. Then let me study and direct myself. So this is something which we have to do individually.

And by our spirituality, we can get the calmness and the clarity to observe ourselves. Not as the world wants us to be, but as we actually are. And by such observation, we can find out how we can contribute to the solution.

Solution to our problem and solution to the bigger problems. So the process of meditation, especially mantra meditation, that we can do, this can raise our consciousness from the physical to the mental to the spiritual. And once we are risen to the spiritual, then we can observe ourselves calmly.

And we can deal with the situation appropriately. Like if we are in the ocean, the waves will be tossing us. But if we are lifted out of the ocean, in a helicopter above, we won't be tossed about by the waves.

Even if we are not lifted above, if somebody is in a helicopter above and they throw a rope down to us, and we hold on to that rope, then also we won't be tossed that much by the waves. So our spirituality is like that rope. So the process of spirituality, if we practise it, that can help us raise our consciousness upwards.

And then we can address this properly. Last point now. It's whenever we face any problems, it's always better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

Sometimes we are just walking along the road and it goes dark. We can't see anything. Now whenever suddenly the power goes off, I have not seen in America power going off unless there is a big hurricane or something like that.

In India it is quite common. When power goes off unexpectedly, the first reaction is people moan, people curse, people yell. But that's natural.

But after a few moments, then we try to take out our flashlights. We take out our phone, turn on the flashlight. Now the flashlight cannot replace the room light or the street light.

But the flashlight can show us one step forward. And we take that one step forward and then we see another step. We take that further step forward, we can see the path for another step and we can move forward.

So when we are in a difficult situation, a situation we can't feel grateful about, we feel resentful about the situation, then instead of thinking, why has this light gone off? How can I turn on one candle? How can I turn on one flashlight? So take that positive attitude. Take that one step forward. And our spirituality helps us understand that we are indestructible and we are a part of something bigger than ourselves.

So when we light a candle, it is not just we who are lighting the candle. Actually, something bigger than us can act through us. And we will find that if we keep taking steps consistently, gradually, not only will the light come back, not only the streetlights will come back, but we will find that we have developed ourselves internally better.

We have become stronger internally. We have found the capacity to turn on the light within us. And that is an immeasurable gain.

The realisation that our spirituality can help us face whatever problems we may be facing, we may come our way in our life, that is an immeasurable gain. Whatever life may get us to, our spirituality can get us through. Whatever life may get us to, our spirituality can get us through.

So I will summarise what I spoke. And then we can have a few questions if any of you have. I spoke on the topic of how to focus not on problems but on potentials.

I started with talking of how we put our thoughts in dealing with certain issues. So the thoughts are like an energy. They don't have a linear correlation with dealing with the problem.

The more, if we don't think, then we will get into trouble. But if we think too much, that will also get us into trouble. It's not a linear correlation.

It's linear up to a particular point. It hits a plateau and then it goes down. Overthinking can aggravate our problems.

So life determines our problems. We determine their size. I talked about my chess game frustration.

And then reading that book and absorption, when we forget everything. And then I talked about how to shift, we try to understand the dynamic of our thoughts. Thoughts can refer to events that just occur, a pop-up that appears on the screen.

Or thoughts can also refer to the contemplation that we do systematically. Our thoughts have no power on us till we give them our thought. I talked about three-level model.

Body, mind and soul. And consciousness, they are like the hardware, software and user. It's a thought experiment which explains how we as inner seers are different from the physical scene.

We could sense our hand clenching and unclenching. And we are different from the inner screen where we can see the hand and its visual representation, mental representation over there. So we are different from the scene and the screen.

We are the seer. And understanding that we are the seer can actually calm us down amidst difficulties. Even if we can't be grateful for all situations, we can be grateful in all situations.

By looking at the, I thought of three things. I, C, E. I was the good in spite of the bad. Cultivate a habit of counting our blessings instead of our problems.

C was the good that helps us to combat the bad. So, if we lose our, if we get a disease or whatever goes wrong, look at the good that is helping us to deal with it. And last was E was emerge.

The good that may emerge from the bad. So the problems of life are like a fire. If we are too caught up at the physical or the mental level of reality, then we are like a wood.

We'll get burned by that fire, reduced to ashes. But if we focus on our spirituality, realise that we are at our core spiritual and indestructible, then we become like the gold which is actually, which shines better when it goes to the fire. And for doing this, for focussing on the potential, not the problem, I talk about the three Ps, that focus on what you are good at, what we feel strongly about and what we believe strongly.

So, look at the potential that we have, look at the problem that we desire to address and think of a process that inspires us to deal with that. And for having the inner clarity and serenity to deal with this, we need to raise our consciousness to the spiritual level. That gives us security.

And even if suddenly the lights in our life go off, we can still turn on the flashlight. Flashlight is, by focussing on our spirituality, what can one step can I take forward? What one step can I take forward? And eventually by this, not only will we grow through the situation and have the inner external lights come back, but we will grow in our spirituality also. And whatever life may get us to, our spirituality can get us through.

Thank you very much. So, are there any questions or comments? Yes, please. Yeah, yourself.

Hey, I just wanted to say thank you so much for sharing your ideas, your opinions and your experiences. Definitely really enjoyed your talk. I had a question about your philosophy of how to think about positive things in your life, especially when you have problems.

But I was wondering, by focussing on the good, aren't you inevitably focussing on the larger situation, which is your problem? And also, if you're only focussing on the good, do you believe that there are some problems that you should not solve? Yeah. So, when you're focussing on the good, are we not focussing on the bigger situation and are we accepting that some problems we should not solve? It's not that we should not solve. It's that we have to optimise the use of our energies.

That means we are finite beings. And in our own life, as well as in the external world around us, there are so many things that can be improved. If you look at our own abilities, you see, I can develop this skill, I can develop this skill, I can develop this skill.

Or I can overcome this weakness, I can overcome this weakness. There's so much we can work on. So, we have to prioritise on which problems to deal with and which problems to live with.

So, if we don't do this prioritisation, some problems, we've just said that they're just not solvable. And if we don't learn to live with them, then we just dissipate our energy completely. Now, how do we decide which problems to deal with and which problems to live with? Some things are just, it's obvious they're beyond our capacity to change.

Say, if we come from India, from a place like South India or Mumbai, to America. Now, America is so cold. And we find that, I find this cold very difficult to bear.

But you can't do anything about it. This is the atmosphere. If I have to study over here, I have to build my career over here, I have to learn to live with it.

So, some problems we easily understand that I can't deal with them. Then we accept them. Now, some problems we think we can deal with them, but when we deal with them, we find that we're getting nowhere.

So, then we may have to move that problem from the deal with category to the live with category. That doesn't mean that we accept defeat. It simply means that we learn to channel our energy where it is productive.

And some problems just require the right time also for the solution. So, we may decide that right now, this problem I can't deal with. Maybe in future, in a better situation, I can deal with the problem.

So, by focussing on the bigger situation, we are not blinding ourselves to the specific. It's just that we are not obsessing over the specific problem that we have. We may have to live with pain, but we don't have to live in pain.

Live with pain means pain is a part of our life. It is a companion in our life. But live in pain means that pain consumes our consciousness.

It becomes a container of our consciousness. Live with pain means pain is contained in our consciousness. Yes, we may have some family situations.

A family member in India may be sick. So many situations can be there. If we are obsessing over them, then we live with pain.

We can't do anything constructive. Live in pain means we accept this problem is there. And in my situation, this is what I can do to deal with it.

And in my situation, I can't do much about other things. So let me live with it. That is just a pragmatic utilisation of our energy.

And focussing on the big picture doesn't mean blinding ourselves to the specific problem, but it just means not obsessing over the specific. Does it address your question? Suppose I took your advice and I am trying to deal with an issue. But we are trying to move on.

But what do you do when humans are social people and keep hearing about this problem over and over. There are others obsessing over the problem and not doing it. Just continuously thinking about that problem.

And you are trying to move on, but they are blasting this problem on to you even though you are moving forward. Yeah, good question. If we want to move on from a particular problem and some other people are just obsessing over the problem and they are imposing that problem on us, what do we do at that time? Yes.

It is said that some people bring happiness wherever they go. And some people bring happiness whenever they go. Some people bring happiness wherever they go.

Some people bring happiness whenever they go. As soon as we see them, we start feeling our heartbeat increasing. Not because of excitement, but because of worry, and talking with them is like walking on a landmine.

We don't know what will cause an explosion. So, at that time, if we find that they are obsessing over an issue which either can't be dealt with or we can't deal with it, then we just have to start taking food. We can start off.

So, we don't have to obsess. We can keep a safe distance from them. Generally, it is polite to try to acknowledge others' feelings.

If somebody feels very strongly about a problem, that's why they may be speaking about it. And we can acknowledge their feelings, but we need to gently and firmly redirect the essence of the discussion. You can say, yes, I understand this hurt you.

At this time, I don't see whether we can do anything about it right now. I can't do anything about it. So, let's discuss something else.

We can be explicit like that. We can be more discreet depending on time, place, circumstance. But we have to redirect the discussion.

If we can't redirect it, then we may have to create a distance. We don't have to let others bring their negativity onto us. So, if they expect us to deal with that problem, and that's why they are speaking it to us, then we may have to clarify that this is what I have done.

This is what I am doing. But beyond this, at this time, I can't do these things. So, in general, when people bring negativity into our lives, it's broadly you can classify into three things.

One is, the problem is with them. They themselves are negative people. Some people find solution to every problem.

And some people find problem is with them. So, when some people are bringing negativity, it could be the problem is with them. If the problem is with them only, then best to keep a distance from them.

Sometimes the problem may be with the situation itself. And something has happened which has hurt them terribly. And that situation, any of us, say, if we fall down, we get a fracture, the wound is there.

And we can't deny the wound. So, sometimes, whatever negativity they are spouting, it's simply because of the situation. Then, we can be patient and understanding.

The situation recedes in the background. They also heal themselves emotionally and things come back to normal. That time, we might just have to act like a buffer where they speak the negativity but we try to protect.

We hear it, just to give them an empathic ear. But we don't get carried away by it. Again, we may have to create a distance.

But sometimes, it might be circumstantial. That situation is what is hurting them. Situation goes, it's dealt with.

Third could be that the problem is with us. That means, we have done some mistake and they want us to acknowledge that this was your mistake and you should have not done like this, you should have done like this. And then, we may do the needful at that time.

We may acknowledge, apologise, amend, whatever we can. If we are responsible for something, there are three things we need to do. Three A's.

Acknowledge that this was my mistake. I acknowledge the gravity of it. A's second is apologise.

Clearly say, I am sorry about it. And amend, do what we can to correct it. Then maybe, more often than not, when people speak something negative, they want to feel understood.

It's not so much that they want us to amend things. Sometimes, some things have happened but the human heart needs understanding. You could say the heart is the metaphorical conceptual heart, the emotional heart.

It needs understanding as much as our body needs oxygen. If we don't feel understood, we feel choked. So then, if we help people to understand, we convey to them that we have understood and that itself may decrease the negativity.

So, based on what the focus of the problem is in them, in the situation or in us, we may respond in somewhat variable ways. But the essence is that we have to help ourselves before we can help others. We can try to direct them to become more positive.

But if they are not moving on, we have to move on in our life. Does this answer your question? Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Yes, please.

Does overthinking have to do with spirituality? Okay. What does overthinking and underthinking have to do with spirituality? Excellent question. There are three parts to it.

The first part is that when we overthink about something, at that time, why do we overthink? Because we have invested ourselves too much into that situation. Let's say, if we are in a relationship with someone and then that relationship seems to be breaking, then some people, when the relationship seems to be breaking, it's like they may become so depressed, they may even become suicidal. Because they have invested themselves so much into that relationship that they see that relationship not as simply a disruption in the interaction between the two.

They start thinking that something must be wrong with me. Maybe I am unloved, I am unloveable, I am useless, I am hopeless. So we overthink a situation because we have identified ourselves excessively with that situation.

We have become caught in that situation, in that interaction, in that role, in that relationship. So our spirituality helps us indestructible beings and at our core we are indestructible. So we have horizontal relationship with others in our life.

But we also have a vertical relationship with our source, with the divine. And that is our defining relationship. So when by our spirituality we understand our indestructibility, when by our spirituality we understand that what happens in my life.

Then when we face some disruption in our relationships at the horizontal level, we don't obsess so much about them. So overthinking happens because we overinvest ourselves. We overidentify ourselves with whatever roles or responsibilities or relationships we may be having.

Underthinking is because of callousness. We are just not being responsible enough. Underthinking also happens because we have adopted an extremely casual approach towards life.

So in the Bhagavad Gita Yoga text it describes that there are three broad mode ways of thinking of approaching life. It's called sattva, rajas and tamas. It refers to, we could say, having, doing and being.

In the person with the lowest consciousness they identify themselves with what they have. I have this car, I have this degree, I have this partner, therefore I am someone good. If I don't have any of these things I am no one good.

Doing means, oh I have this career, I am doing this, I am doing this, therefore I am someone worthwhile. But being means this is who I am and I am secure in my sense of self-being, secure in my spiritual identity. So when we are either overthink or lower think, overthink or underthink.

But when you rise to a spiritual level of consciousness, we understand how much thinking is adequate or is useful for dealing with the problem. Does that answer your question? Yeah, that leads into, I was going to ask this last, but what if what if trauma associated with pain makes it difficult or impossible to use spirituality to overcome the problem? Why would trauma make it impossible to be spiritual? Because you can't focus because the trauma is taking so much from you. Okay.

So if trauma makes it impossible to focus on spirituality, then we have to recognise that spirituality doesn't necessarily have to be reduced to one activity or even one set of activities. No matter how much traumatised someone has been, they still have their own interests, they still have their own talents. They may not feel like doing anything at that time.

Say somebody faced a terrible trauma in their life, but still they like music. Now if you tell them to read a spiritual text, to study the philosophy, that they may just not be able to do at that time. But if you look at the circle where someone's interests are, and then we look at the circle of spirituality, we can find where these two circles intersect.

And then try to become spiritual through the intersection between the two. So somebody may not be able to attend talks or even read philosophy, but they might just be able to hear some soothing music, hear some spiritual music, they are good at doing things with their hands. They start moving around, get out of their head and start doing something physically in a spiritual setting for a spiritual cause.

Spirituality is not reduced to some particular activity, it is inclusive. So the way we can find out that requires initiative on the part of that person as well on the part of the spiritual mentors of that person. Where can the two intersect? The circle of natural interest of the person and the circle of their spirituality.

From there they can become spiritual in spite of the trauma. Okay? Thank you. Does the music have to be spiritual or is music just inherently spiritual? Good question.

Does music have to be spiritual or is music intrinsically spiritual? There are two ways to, three broad ways in which you can understand whether some, we can evaluate whether something is spiritual or not. This is intent, its content and its consequence. The intent means, okay, with what intention did somebody do this? If somebody has done it simply with the purpose of becoming famous, earning a lot of money and they have done it with self, selfish, self centred motives, then, then that is not going to lead to much spirituality in that music.

Content means, what is it talking about? If the music is talking about, is just a rant against the world about violence, about destruction, about pessimism, then that content also is not going to be spiritual. So, spiritual music can be centred on mantras, there are divine chants. So, these are sounds which are intrinsically spiritual.

And if their music is set around that, then the spiritual content of them is huge. And then the consequence. So, we have to see that what is the result of hearing something? Does that raise my consciousness? Does that make me more positive? Does that broaden my vision of my life? Or does it actually have a negative effect on me? So, it's not that you could say music is intrinsically spiritualizable.

But it is not all music is intrinsically spiritual. Yes, please. Could you apply that to more than just music, like the content and consequence? Yes, in general.

Is that like with art and other… Like? Like with art, for example? Oh, yeah, of course. For all fields. In fact, I have a whole seminar on this, that these three intent, content, and consequence, you can look at these for making decisions in our life also at large, in any field.

So, in theory, like, not necessarily everything, but most things, like a lot of things can be spiritual, or like… Does that make sense? Yeah. Can most things be spiritual? Yeah, definitely. But I would say that intrinsically spiritual, they can be spiritualised.

There has to be the direction of consciousness going in the spiritual. If you look at this three-level model, the hardware, software, and user, then we understand that spirituality is not just a state of the mind. It is a state of being.

There is a higher level of reality which is spiritual. So, if we consider if reality to be like three-level, then it's a three-level building from the level 1, level 2, level 3. So, level 1 is physical reality. Level 2 is mental reality.

And level 3 is spiritual reality. So, anything at level 1 or level 2 can become a tool for us to rise to level 3. There are some tools which are intrinsically useful for going through to level 3. But, is the intent to go to level 3? Is the content something which helps us to go to level 3? And at the end of it, have I actually gone to level 3? How do I know that I have gone to level 3 to the spiritual level? When we are at the spiritual level, what happens at level 1 and level 2, even if it concerns us, it doesn't disturb us. If we are at level 1, level 2, we will get swept away by it.

We will be overwhelmed by it. So, if we risen to level 3, then we will still be concerned because we have to deal with it. But we won't be overwhelmed by it.

So, many times we think of spiritual as anything that makes us feel good. Yes, there are many things which can make us feel good, but that feeling good might just be at level 2. At the mental level, it makes me feel good. Taking drugs can make people feel good.

Spending time, hours and hours, watching movies can make people feel good. But whether that is making them spiritual, that is questionable. So, to conclude this point, that just at the physical level, if somebody is in pain, we can have a painkiller which just covers the pain and we can have a curative medicine.

The painkiller can also be useful if the patient is in a lot of pain. But the painkiller is not the curative medicine. Although the painkiller can also help a person to feel good.

But they need the curative medicine if they are going to actually be cured. Similarly, there may be many things which can help us feel good. But they may be like painkillers.

Most entertainment, if it doesn't have a component of enlightenment within it, it doesn't have a component that points to spiritual level of reality, then it is like a painkiller. It helps us to feel good but the underlying cause has not been dealt with. But that which takes us to the level 3, the spiritual level of reality, that is like a curative medicine.

So, in our tradition, we have a whole culture of music, art, dance, drama, centred on spiritual sound. Especially, we chant the mantra Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Ram, Hare Ram, Ram Ram, Hare Hare. So, this mantra is like an elevator.

When we chant the mantra, we get our consciousness to enter into that sound. We let the sound enter into our consciousness. As the sound enters into our consciousness, we find that our consciousness starts rising.

As it rises upwards, it comes to the spiritual level. Does that answer your question? Any other questions or comments? I'll just come back to you. Does anyone else have questions? Don't mind.

What was the book? Which one? That your friend gave you. Way back you got the book and you saw in the book that you forgot about the text, right? Okay, okay. At that time, it was just a, it was a book about language.

It was a book of words with, at that time we didn't have Wikipedia or online dictionaries. So it was, one of my hobbies in childhood was to just pick up dictionaries and look at words and memorise the meanings of words. So it was a book, so it was a, it was a book, so it was a book that had something like the thousand words which have the maximum meanings.

Like say, I believe the word run has something like several hundred meanings to it. So I'm running for elections. That's very different from I'm going for a jog or a run.

So is the computer running properly? So like that, so these were the words which had, this was a book which had that list of the words which have the maximum meanings. So it was fascinating to look at each word. Okay, what does this mean? Where have I heard this meaning being used? How can I use this word in this meaning? So that's how I got absorbed in it.

Sorry? I was so intrigued about this. Thank you. Yeah.

Yes. Thank you for the question. Yeah.

You can come back please. Yeah. So about the, it was about the thought experiment.

How is visualisation a mental component when the brain, which is a physical component of your body, is necessary in order to visualise? Okay. How is visualisation at the mental exercise when the brain is required for visualisation, the brain is a part of the physical body? Good question. Thank you.

At the present level of experience, our consciousness comes from the physical through the mental, sorry, the consciousness comes from the spiritual level, the soul, to the physical, to the, through the mental, to the physical. So anything that we experience right now, there is a physical channel for that. See, even when we chant spiritual sounds, if we chant a mantra, now that mantra, we are going to use our throat for that.

So now the throat is the tool. It is not the content. The tool, if we go back to the intent, content and consequence, when, if we have to do anything at the material level of reality, anything at our present level of consciousness, anything right now, it is going to be expressed in the physical level.

But the focus is not in the physical level. I will give a simple example. Say, if I have a computer and with that computer, I am watching a movie.

Then, or say, I am watching a sports match that is happening somewhere else. Then that computer becomes a tool to a reality which is elsewhere, something which is happening elsewhere. Now, for that, I am using the computer screen.

So it is one physical reality, the computer screen which is used to show me another physical reality which is the sports stadium. But now, I want to debug my computer. Then at that time, I am going to use the same hardware of the computer but then I will use the hardware, I will operate some programmes by which what will be shown on my computer will be all the softwares over there.

And then, if I run the debugging programme, this programme needs to be updated, this programme is corrupted, this programme is working fine. So, I am seeing it all on the physical screen itself. But what I am seeing in the physical screen does not pertain to physical reality.

I am using the hardware to see it but what I am seeing through the hardware is the software, the state of the software. So, similarly, for any kind of experience, at present, our brain will be involved. But the brain is the tool, the brain is not the source.

The brain is the tool, the channel through which things are happening, it is not the source of it. But for humans, for brains, we are both the instruments and because we have the senses so we touch something, we feel it, but that touching comes from both the nerves here that feel it and from our brain interpreting it, it is all connected. Okay, I get your question.

Let me try to explain this in another way. There is, I was in Toronto last year, I mean this year only, last semester. So, there, I mean I was giving a talk.

So, Toronto, for Canada, one of their most famous scientists is Dr. Wilder Benfield. He is a neuroscientist considered the father of brain surgery. And he studied the human brain for almost 40 years and he wrote several books.

The last of his books was The Mystery of the Mind. And he had this idea, which is mainstream scientific notion that the brain is the source of consciousness. And he basically, if people were getting fits, attacks, then he found that if you remove certain parts of the brain, then the fits decrease.

So, he could remove certain parts of the brain. And then while he was doing this, he started, he did various experiments involving the brain. So, one typical, one experiment was quite striking was that we know now more or less which part of the brain correlates with which bodily function.

So, there is say the parietal lobe, which correlates with the motor function. So, if that part of the brain is activated, then say the hand rises or falls. So, he observed, he asked the subject to raise their hand.

Subject raised their hand, he found that that part of the brain was activated. He asked the subject, describe the event. He said, I raised my hand.

Then he asked the subject to lower the hand. He lowered the hand, that part got deactivated. He asked what happened.

He said, I lowered my hand. Then through external probes, Dr. Penfield activated that part of the brain. When he activated that part of the brain, the hand went up.

And he asked the subject, what happened? He said, my hand went up. Did you raise your hand? No, I didn't, you did. And then he deactivated that part of the brain, that electrode.

And then the hand fell down. So, what happened? My hand fell down. Did you put your hand down? I didn't, you did.

So, now the implication of this is that, to understand this, let's compare simple experiments. Say, I have a computer here and I have a printer over here. And I have a print button.

As soon as I press the print button, the printer hand starts moving and the printing starts happening. In the first case, so we can consider the print button to be like the brain centre which controls motor motions, motor nervous control system, motor functions of the body. And then the printer hand is like the hand which moves up and down.

So, in the first case, it was Dr. Penfield, it was the subject who pressed the button. Like my computer, I pressed the button. I raised my hand, I lowered my hand.

In the second case, who pressed the button? In the second case, it was Dr. Penfield. He said, you know, you came and you raised it. But in the second case, the person said, I am not doing it.

So, then, he said, I am not doing it, I am observing you do it. What this means is that the brain is a physical tool like a print button. And the person who is using the brain is different from the brain.

So, Dr. Penfield's conclusion was that the brain is like a computer but it is programmed by something outside of itself. And Dr. William James, who is considered the father of, in some ways, the father of psychology, he gives the example that the brain is like a prism and consciousness is like the light. So, when light goes to the prism, the light comes out different, in different colours.

And the prism gets damaged and light doesn't come out of the same patterns. So, the brain is not the generator of consciousness, the brain is the transmitter of consciousness. And the same experiment is vindicated by, the same thesis is vindicated by Dr. Penfield's findings.

And in our thought experiment, now if you go backwards, our thought experiment, we will use the brain for visualisation, no doubt. But the visualiser is different from both what is visualised and what is used for visualising. The visualiser, who is visualising is different from what is being visualised and what is being used to be visualised.

But that's where I'm stuck, because our concept of self is something that develops because of our brain. So, you can, like, well, like, on a regular level, yes, our self is separate from what we perceive. Both of our sense of self and what we perceive, both of those processes happen in the brain, in different places, but they both happen in the brain.

Yeah, that's a good point that the sense of self developed from the brain. There are two different things over here. One is that the self acts through the brain, but is the self itself the product of the brain? That is, that is, that is nothing in science that can prove it.

That's a presumption. It's an operational assumption that science uses, that the sense of selfhood comes from the brain. But, going further, Dr. Penfield tried to repeat this experiment by, he had the subject raise the hand and lower the hand, intentionally and unintentionally, through the probe electrode.

And then while doing this, he also activated other parts of the brain. And then he observed whether any part of the brain, when activated, would give the subject the sense of agency, that I am the dude. And no matter whichever part of the brain was activated, many different things happened.

If some part of the brain was activated, suddenly subject started saying that I am remembering a conversation that I had when I was five years old with my grandmother. Or, oh, I am seeing a, I am feeling the fragrance of a flower. They got many, many experiences.

But in all of them, the sense, the self was the observer. The brain, activation of the brain triggered certain experiences. But no part of the brain, when triggered, would give the sense of self to, the sense of selfhood.

And anyway, if at all we want to say the sense of selfhood emerges from the brain, that there are severe conceptual problems with that. Because why? Because all parts of the brain give rise to certain sensations, which we experience. But there is no one centre of the brain which is connected to all parts of the brain.

So, there is no one cell in the brain which is connected to all other cells. So, where does that sense of self reside? If it's coming from the brain, which part of the brain is it coming from? There are surgeries, hemispherectomy is a surgery where you can cut off half of the brain. And still the sense of selfhood remains.

Not only that, there are cases where there are people who have had near-death experiences. So, I have a book on reincarnation where I describe the near-death experience of Pam Reynolds. She had aneurysm at the bottom of her brain.

Doctors told her you can't survive. It's impossible. But then finally she came to know of a doctor, a speculator who had developed a particular extremely daring and dangerous operation called Operation Sandstill.

And this operation, she agreed to do that operation and then she was subjected to it. What was the operation all about? First she is given complete anaesthesia. And after the anaesthesia is given, complete unconsciousness, then artificial cardiac arrest is induced in the body.

So that the heart stops pumping blood. And then the blood to the brain is stopped. Then after that, when the anaesthesia is fully activated, then the heart has stopped beating, the brain has stopped giving out any means.

It is basically induced coma. From a physiological, biological perspective, you could say the person is dead at that time. And then the body is tilted in such a way that all the blood comes out of the brain.

And at this time, then the cranial cavity is opened and the brain is picked out. Literally, the brain is picked out of the cranial cavity. And then you pick out the brain and then you reach down to the bottom of the brain where the aneurysm is there.

And then you cut off the aneurysm. So now in this case, it was in such a situation when she had been given this aneurysm, she was undergoing this operation, that she had an out-of-body experience. And she described, she saw herself from a perspective above her body, above the operating theatre.

And the first thing she saw was that her hair was cut in a very peculiar way. Hey, why have they done that? And then she saw that somebody was doing something near her groyne. This is brain surgery.

Why are they doing anything with my groyne? And then she heard a female voice saying that the veins are very small over here. And then she heard a male voice saying that, okay, try on the other thigh. And then she further went on hearing the conversation.

And then she felt herself rising and going to a different level of reality. And then when she came back to consciousness, she reported this. And the medical transcripts of the operation which were put together in the records.

And this exact conversation had happened. And not only the conversation had happened, but also all the details were right about. And she described several other details also about what she observed in the operating theatre.

And none of these are generic. None of this is generic information that she could have guessed by her general knowledge of surgery. She was not a medical student at all.

She didn't have any background in medicine. But the more important thing is that to ensure that during this operation, she is unconscious. They had earphones tied to her ears.

And those earphones were emitting high decibel sounds. Like say, a train whistle. And at extremely high frequency.

Almost 70 to 80 times a second. Very very fast. 70 to 80 times a minute.

So, with that kind, now that sound is required in the ears. Because the ears are very sensitive to sound. Like when we are sleeping, we wake up through the alarm.

So, they have to make sure that the person is unconscious. So, if there is no response in the brain even to that level of the sound, that means the person is really unconscious. So, she had that kind of earplugs assigned, generating that kind of sounds in her ear.

So, when that loud a sound is going on with that frequency, how could she conceivably have heard a conversation that happened at a normal conversational level, which, when she was asked, she said that I didn't even hear those sounds, clicking sounds. I heard, she said, I heard by non-physical means. Let me conclude this.

So, basically, normally when we experience, there is the body, there is the mind, there is the consciousness, there is the mind and there is the body. So, normally our experience is mediated through the mind, through the body, through the brain, through the outer world. But in the outer body experiences, the self comes out of the body.

And the self can observe from an outer body perspective. So, when the brain is biologically not functioning, still the sense of self is there. So, that means the sense of self is not a product of the brain.

Can we continue at a one-to-one level? If you don't mind, I think others have to go on. We'll talk afterwards. Thank you very much for your thoughtful questions.

Thank you for your participation also. Thank you. So, thank you so much Chetan sir for coming and enlightening us.