Friendship insights-Rama-Sugriva Ramayan South London 14.7.24

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My apologies for the delay in coming and thank you for waiting for so long.

So, today I'll speak on the topic of friendship. So, I'm using this tablet to write and draw certain things as a way of explaining. I'll focus specifically on the relationship between Ram and Sugriva.

Now, at one level, Lord Ram is the Supreme Lord and Sugriva is the Vanara king. So, when they form a relationship, it is Sugriva knows to some extent who Ram is. In the Valmiki Ramayan, the focus is not so much on establishing or proclaiming Ram's divinity.

Because each book has a driving question. And the driving question of the Valmiki Ramayan is, what is the nature of ideal person? What is the behaviour of ideal person? And if the focus becomes this person is God, then for God what is difficult? God is all powerful and all difficult is God can do whatever he wants. So, the divinity of Lord Ram is clearly mentioned but that is not the emphasis of this.

So, I'll talk about friendship from three broad perspectives. That when there is friendship, friends, they can act as mirrors for us. Mirrors means they help us to take a look at ourselves.

And they help us to also act as muscles. By muscles, what I mean is that they give us strength when we lack strength. The third part I won't mention now.

If you get time, we'll come to it. I don't want to make this class very long. So, the nature of life is that we have outer challenges and inner challenges.

We can have difficulties that come up upon us and those can overwhelm us at times. And sometimes from inside, dark desires may come up, dark moods may come up. There can be obstacles that come from inside.

And the worst situation is when both come together. When we have great difficulty externally and we are also troubled by dark moods or dark thoughts internally. Now, in the journey of their relationship, so why I'm specifically talking about friendship here? Many reasons.

One reason is that as the world is becoming more and more fast-paced and fragmented, loneliness is becoming an increasing problem. And it is more and more difficult to actually form and sustain good relationships of any kind. So, you see what the example of Lord Ram and his relationship with Supreme Being Jesus in that perspective.

Now, when a relationship is formed or developed, there are a hundred routine interactions that go on. But there are some key moments. Like we say, a friend in need is a friend in deed.

So, now that in deed has two meanings over there. It's in deed and in deed. That a friend in need is certainly a friend, but a friend in need is also a person who is showing by their deeds that this person is actually a friend.

So, now it's with respect to friendship. I'm going to focus on friendship, but then we can apply that in relationships. There are two opposite schools of thought.

Much of traditional wisdom also has opposites in it. For example, one side says birds of a feather flock together. The other idea is that unlike poles attract each other.

So, now friendship can arise out of similarities. But it's interesting that friendship can arise out of differences also. In any relationship that we have, there has to be certain level of similarity.

And that similarity leads to certain level of predictability or reliability. Okay, in this situation, this person will think like this. In this situation, this person will act like this.

But if this is taken too far, then the relationship becomes boring. Why? Because it's almost like interacting with a machine. I already know if I speak this, this person is going to do this.

If I speak this, I say this, this person is going to do that. If I do this, this person is going to do like that. So, then there is nothing new or stimulating in the relationship.

Now, there is also some level of dissimilarity in a relationship. That brings some, you could say it makes it unpredictable, but it also brings some excitement. When there is some dissimilarity, the person is different from us, then that makes it unpredictable.

You don't know how this person is going to act. Now, on one side, when there is predictability, that brings stability in the relationship. I know, in this situation, I can count on this person.

Now, when there is unpredictability, then when the unpredictability is too much, it can lead to a lot of insecurity. If I speak one word, that person explodes. What happened? Why are you acting like this? It feels as if being in that relationship is like being in a minefield.

We don't know, we just can't count on that person. But a moderate level of unpredictability, you could say, that brings novelty. So, some or too much, we can say.

Same way, some level of unpredictability brings novelty. Too much of unpredictability leads to insecurity. So now, at an external level, Ram and Sugriva, they are in similar situations.

What are the similarities? Both of them have lost their kingdom. Both of them are living in exile. So, generally, there has to be some similarity.

Initially, at least some shared purpose, some shared interests, something common has to be there. So, that's how they start. Now, in some ways, Sugriva's condition is worse.

For two main reasons. Why Sugriva's condition is worse with Ram? Because he cannot fight, his brother is stronger. So, actually, his brother is out to kill him.

Bharat was not out to kill Ram when Ram was in the forest. That's one. Another, Ram has at least some family with him.

He has his wife, he has his brother with him. Sugriva has no one. So, in that sense, he is in a more difficult situation.

But when Lord Ram hears about Sugriva and that particular, his condition, then there is a bonding that happens. So, generally, we have a capacity for empathy. Now, he is a vanara, Lord Ram is a manava.

They are different. But the similarity of the situation attracts some attention. Now, after that, then things move forward.

Lord Ram, he is… Sugriva has heard about Ram, but he has heard about so many different people in life. He may have heard, oh, this person is a good speaker, this person is a good singer, this person is good at this, this person is bad. But then when we actually interact with that person in real life, hey, this is really good.

This is okay. This is incredibly good. So, he has heard that Ram is powerful.

He says, I have heard about your power, but I have seen Vali's power. So, with all due respect, generally, everybody uses the word, with all due respect. Whatever comes afterwards, may not have much respect for it.

So, he says, Vali is way too powerful. So, then Lord Ram gives some demonstration of his power. He says, Vali just hurled this demon.

That's the body of the demon called Lumbini. And he flung it far away. So, Lord Ram just takes his toe and hits it with his toe.

And that body flies away. Hey, this is impressive. This is a bird.

And Vali threw it. It was filled with flesh. It was heavier.

Now, it's just skeletons. Then Lord Ram says that, okay. He takes an arrow and shoots.

And the arrow goes to Sapta Tala Dhekta Acharya. It penetrates to six, seven very strong tala trees. And it goes into the earth.

It goes through the earth. It comes back right into Ram's quiver. And there, Subri sees that.

Subri is standing and watching. As he is watching, his mouth falls to the ground. Like his mouth falls to the ground.

And then he falls to the ground. And offering prostrated obeisance is his. What to speak of Vali? There is no one in the three worlds who can match your prowess.

So, here the point is, Lord Ram is God. But even Ram has to earn the trust. In general, in any relationship, trust has to be earned.

Now, if the other person is cultured, then they may give you some respect. Now, respect may be given because even if there is other person, you don't know anything about it. But trust is much closer.

So, each person has to actually act in a way that they become trustworthy. So, after Lord Ram does this, then he says, okay, I am not going to go through all the incidents in their life. But afterwards Ram tells him that okay, you go and fight with Vali.

And he goes and fights with Vali. He is expecting Ram will help him in some way. And all that happens is Vali just beats him up.

And somehow, Subri escapes with his life. And he says, you have the power to help, but do you have the will to help? Did you really just want me to beat you up like this? What happened over here? And now, Ram gives a reason which Subri doesn't know what to make of it. He says, well, actually, you two brothers look so similar, both of you monkeys.

I was not sure who was who. I didn't want to hate you by mistake. Subri started thinking, you know, to protect my life, you are endangering my life.

Isn't it? So, now, Ram says that at least in the Leela, Ram is the Supreme Lord, but he does not always act as if he is omnipotent. So, he says that, I haven't seen Vali before, I have only seen you, and you two look similar. Now, there are, of course, the similarities.

It's like you say, if two people are twins, then if you don't know them very well, especially if they are identical twins, then they look very similar. Over a period of time, you get to know them, we know their personalities, their quirks, their particular behavioural patterns, and then we can make out the difference. But from a distance, it may not be so easy to discern who is who.

So, Subriya says, okay, maybe this is true. So, now, he says, okay, I will challenge you again this time, and you wear a garland. Now, Subriya is wearing a garland, and what if Vali tears the garland? And you either find the garland gets torn, and then what is going to happen to me at that time? So, now the Acharyas give different explanations for this, of all that is happening.

I'm not going to go into all these rabbit holes which past time goes into. My focus is on the principle of friendship. That, on one side, Ram, through his prowess, seems to earn his trust.

But by his inaction, he starts questioning it. So, in general, in relationships, there are ups and downs. Sometimes you feel, hey, I want to be very close to this person.

And sometimes, you meet a person, and you feel, hey, this is a friendly, warm person. You don't want to spend more time with them. And they are also very warm.

And the next time you meet them, and they act as if… They don't even care that you exist. See, people go through their moods at times. We have moods, and the moods affect our moods.

So, sometimes people can be a little unpredictable. So, now, the Lord's unpredictability, of course, is transcendental. So, what happened is, that next time, the Lord did what he was told.

And now we'll go into the ethics of the killing of Vali. There's an elaborate discussion. And Vali himself is initially outraged.

But then, Vali accepts that, the way I treated Ram, the way I treated Sugriv, see, the way I suddenly threw Sugriv out of the kingdom, and persecuted him. So, what I did to Sugriv, or Ram, you did to me. Sugriv was just going through his own life, and Vali suddenly attacked him.

So, Lord Ram did the same to Vali. Now, in one sense, you can say it was unfair. Lord Ram was not fighting with Vali.

But, Ram wanted to give Vali an experience of what he had put his brother through. No fault of Sugriv, and suddenly, his brother is out to kill him. So, he must have no fault of Vali, at least in that particular context, suddenly an arrow comes and kills him.

So, Lord Ram, it may seem unfair, but what he does by that is, he makes Vali realise what's going on, what he has done. Most people, generally this is human psychology, or basic psychology is that, in life, there are wrongs done to us. Somebody does something bad to us.

And, there are wrongs done by us. So, what happens is, most people, they remember the wrongs done to them, and they forget the wrongs done by them. That's how we maintain our positive self-image.

So, now, Lord Ram forcefully reminded Sugriv, not Sugriv, Vali, and Vali actually reconciled with Sugriv. And, Vali said, no, I treated you very harshly, forgive me for that. Vali gave him his own special jewellery necklace.

As long as that would be around a person's neck, that person would never die. Vali could have given it to his own son Angad. But, by those actions, he showed that his apology was really serious.

Now, he brought about that, Ram expertly brought about that reconciliation between Vali and Sugriv. It was a deathbed reconciliation, but at least it was a reconciliation. But now, after Vali died, Sugriv had an attack of conscience.

Generally, what happens, if you have a long relationship with someone, there are good memories, there are bad memories, and for most people, if someone dies, in this basic culture and basic human decency, that if somebody has died, knows bad about the dead person. And it's not just speaking negatively about a person, when that person is no longer there in our lives, naturally we start remembering the good about that person. Even if the bad is there, we tend to, at least at that time, our heart is softened a little bit.

We remember the good about that person. So, this is what happens to Sugriv. And now, Sugriv and Vali have been friends for a long, long time.

They are brothers and friends. And now there is a horrendous misunderstanding, which made Vali murderous, but for Sugriv, just that final reconciliation, it almost wipes out all the memory of the persecution that he has suffered. And he starts thinking, that actually, my brother had many chances to kill me.

If he had really wanted to kill me, he could have killed me. Of course, Sugriv is now playing his own role. He did, many times, survive just by in the bare nick of time.

In America, there is a satellite system. So, by a millimetre, by a centimetre, there was survival. So, there are many places where Sugriv barely survived.

But, of course, there were occasions when Vali could have killed Sugriv. Rohan did not. So, Sugriv started thinking that Vali could have killed me, but he did not.

But as soon as they got the opportunity, I killed him. What a terrible brother I am. I started thinking, I am not worthy of being a king.

Therefore, when Vali dies at the funeral pyre, I will also lie down at the final funeral pyre. And I will end my life. In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna says that how can I shoot arrows at Nishma and Drona? They are my respectable elders.

Sugriv feels, I already had an arrow shot. I didn't shoot, but I had someone shoot. I am the cause of the death of my brother.

How can I live at this time? Now, see, guilt is like a double-edged sword. Guilt can be positive when it stops us from wrongdoing. So, when we are about to, we are angry, and we are about to yell and speak some very harsh words, at that time, something comes in our mind, don't speak like this.

Or we are extremely angry, we have spoken one sentence harshly, we are about to speak something more, but something comes in our mind, don't speak like this. So, guilt can stop us from wrongdoing. At that time, guilt is positive.

But guilt can be negative when it becomes so overwhelming that it stops from doing anything at all. Oh, I am such a terrible person. I just can't do anything.

I am worthless. Yudhisthira also gets such an attack of conscience, attack of guilt, specifically, after the Kurukshetra war. And then Jyotishma has to pacify him at that time.

So, put it another way, that if we consider, say, we are here, and say there is some temptation, there is something which will lead us to wrongdoing. And on the other side is, say, our duty. And ultimately, the duty leads us to Krishna.

So, now what should happen is, guilt should come here, in between us and wrongdoing. Then that helps us, that is constructive. But sometimes, guilt comes here.

So, this should be understood to be not guilt, but pseudo-guilt. It is maya masquerading as guilt. And I am such a fallen person, that if I go to the temple, I will contaminate the temple.

So, I will not go to the temple. Well, you may think I am fallen as humility. Actually, that is not humility, that is ego.

To think that my impurity is so great, that God's purity will be overpowered by that. So, if guilt starts coming between us and Krishna, between us and doing our responsibility, then that has to be stopped. This is where Ram and Lakshmana both speak.

Ram says to Sugriva, that he was your brother, you loved him, but he acted terribly towards you. And, you could not have survived, if he had survived. So, he said that, he, if you feel bad about what you did, the best way to make amends is to carry on his legacy.

That he wanted you to take responsibility. If you did something wrong to you, wrong to him, you are not, but if you figure out something is wrong, the best way to make amends is by fixing it. By carrying on the kingdom that he had built.

He said that. Lord Ram consoled him. And Lord Ram doesn't go towards philosophy.

Generally, when we are speaking to someone, we have to understand their frame of mind. And speak accordingly. That we speak in a way that does not agitate other people's minds.

So, here, Sugriva is already agitated. Ram doesn't say, why are you being sentimental? Why are you being so weak? Certainly, Ram doesn't say, if you don't become the king, who will help you find Sita? That would be very, very self-centred. So, he says, if you are going through this, I am here to help you.

Now, in one sense, after this happens, it is some action of Sugriva that tests Ram's patience. That is, Sugriva forgets. There is a rainy season, and the rains are so torrential that he just can't find Sita at that time.

He can't even go out to find Sita. So, he decides to wait for the rainy season to end. Now, during that time, what happens? Sugriva has just come back from immense torture, in terms of austerity, deprivation, and now he has got royal luxury.

And he has got nothing to do. Somebody, say, for example, has lived in the wilderness, and they come back to a place where they have broader internet access, as it is a pandemic, a lockdown, no work to do. So, Sugriva goes on a Netflix binge.

He just gets caught completely in entertainment. He forgets the promise that he has made. So, at that time, Lakshman has to come and remind him.

But it's interesting that Ram says Lakshman, and Lakshman chastises Sugriva. Sugriva immediately says, I'm sorry, I've already called the Vanaras. And then Ram meets Sugriva.

Ram does not speak any harsh words. Although initially Ram is angry and Lakshman pacifies Ram, but when Lakshman goes and sees Sugriva enjoying, Lakshman gets angry. But then, when Sugriva meets Ram, Sugriva apologises, Ram says, it's fine, let's focus on finding Sita now.

So, what happens is that everybody, some Sunder or other, messes up. So, when somebody messes up, it mistakes. One thing is, somebody made a mistake and you hold it in their face for the rest of their life.

When that happens, it is, and that mistake becomes like a tool for emotionally blackmailing and beating on others. See, you did this, you owe me. You did this, you owe me.

Now, love does not keep scores like this. So, Ram just lets it go. Now, after that, Sugriva organises his soldiers and he says, you go in this direction, you go in this direction, you go in this direction, and he explains to them, if you go in this direction, you will find a river over here and this river is difficult to cross over here, you can cross it from here.

There is a mountain here, there is a cave over here, you can go in this cave. This cave, there is a cave over here, but that's a dead end, don't go there. So, now, Lord Ram is hearing what he appreciated.

And then Ram says to Sugriva, in school, was geography your favourite subject? He doesn't use those words, but then, you know a lot about various areas and various pathways. Sugriva says, I learnt this not out of interest, but out of necessity. Vali was chasing me all over the universe and I had to know all the escapades.

So, when he is speaking this, at that time, as he is speaking, he starts realising, actually how the trouble that he went through because of Vali's persecution, in that trouble, what he learnt that is now coming in the service of Ram. So, for us, when we go through various experiences in our life, sometimes we just wonder, why is this happening to me? And we say, there is nothing to learn over here. But, it is, when we talk to others, when we try to use our ideas to make sense of what is happening in our life, and especially if it is with warm friends, then, oh, this is what is happening in my life.

Of course, Ram is the supreme lord and he can give special insights. But, speaking our heart is a very important aspect of any relationship. And we all need a place where we can speak it.

So, Lord Ram's appreciation and Sugriva's realisation, they both come together over here. And then, I talk about two more incidents. Then we open for question and answers.

So, after this, the Ravana within a prasthita Rama, the whole army went to Orlanka after, they found out where Sita is, Hanuman went there and came back and everything. But then, when they were about to launch their attack on Ravana's kingdom, they had built a bridge and they started moving across. At that time, Rahul sent messengers and he said, Sugriva, we have no enmity among each other.

In fact, he said, the previous Vandana king and I had a very good relationship. He said, we had excellent treaty and I can make it even better for you. He said, you don't mess with me, I am not messing with you.

You go back. I will give you immense riches. At that time, Sugriva is not tempted even the least.

He doesn't even have to consider. Why? Because, for him, his service to Rama is so important. Rama has stood by him and now he is going to stand by Rama.

So, as I said, there are times of temptation, there are times of test. That is the time what we do that can make or break a relationship. So here, Sugriva doesn't even have to consider at all.

He is immediately in company. Later on, in the same incident, the war is going to happen. Some negotiations are still going on.

Both sides are planning. So, Lord Rama, now the way it is described, Lanka is quite large. In the centre of Lanka, there is a city where Ravana is residing.

And Ravana climbs on one border wall and from there he is looking at the army of the opponents. And in that outer part of the island, there is also some hill on which Ram, Hanuman and Sugriva, they are playing. Ram and Sugriva primarily.

And they are also looking. And Sugriva sees Ravana. And Sugriva feels a sudden surge of rage.

And he just takes one huge jump. And he is right on the tower. And Ravana is watching, amazed.

Bang! A big punch from Sugriva hits him. And Ravana is knocked down. And now Ravana is with his commander, with his general.

His commander is right in front of the soldiers. He is incensed. He is enraged.

He shakes Sugriva off and starts beating him. And then Sugriva and Ravana start fighting. And as they are fighting, Sugriva lands several good punches.

Ravana tries to hit back. And Ravana is really surprised how strong this is. He thought, I'll just crush him.

But each time Sugriva gets away. And for Ravana initially, it's a matter of outrage, how dare this monkey come in my kingdom and beat me up. So he wants to beat him up by force.

But then soon they realise that Sugriva is quite strong. So then Ravana just moves backward. And he starts, he has mystic powers.

He changes his form. So he is just thinking which mystic power to use. Now Sugriva realises what's happening.

Sugriva is also a warrior. See when two people are fighting and suddenly one person pauses. This person must have some trick up their sleeve.

Ravana is certainly not going to run away from there. And Ravana also isn't telling any of his other soldiers to attack. Sugriva realises and before Ravana can use any mystic powers, Sugriva again leaps.

And he leaps all the way across and is back on Rama's side. And the Vanaras will be watching. They see what that king has accomplished.

Gone into the enemy camp, beaten up the enemy king and come back. They all start celebrating and cheering. Now Rama embraces Sugriva.

And there he speaks to Jesus. Why were you so impulsive? We want to win this war. If you had gone over there, you could have been trapped.

So Sugriva says when I saw Ravana he had tried to tempt me away from you. I felt he had to be given a beating. So this is not just impulsive reach.

It was out of his love not just anger at Ravana but it was love for Rama. You think I will get tempted away? That I will teach you. And you will try to tempt me.

So Sugriva also shows his love for Rama. Later on when the war is going on there are 2-3 incidents when things become very difficult for Rama's side. And one of them is when Indrajeet attacks.

Indrajeet takes on invisible form. Basically he becomes invisible and starts attacking from the air. And the Vanaras are trying to fight.

Arrow comes from one side and hits him. But Indrajeet has gone somewhere else. And like that he destroys a large part of the Vanara army.

And then finally he targets Rama and Lakshmi. And both of them become severely wounded. Lakshmi challenges Indrajeet.

Only cowards become invisible and fight. He said be a hero and let's see who is stronger. Indrajeet laughs and keeps attacking.

So eventually the attack is so severe that at that time Rama and Lakshmi both in front of the Vanara's unbelieving eyes they just fall. They fall and lie on the ground. Now this is a time that everything could have unravelled.

In an army if the main person falls, there is chaos. And at that time the enemy gets crushed. Or all the soldiers get killed.

This is the time when supreme leadership ability comes to the fore. He when Rama and Lakshmi fall he immediately calls upon the soldiers to form a protective ring. And they stop attacking.

And they all form a ring around. And he looks at Rama and Lakshmi. They seem they are motionless.

They seem lifeless. And he asks them what is your name. And he says there is some little breath.

But their breath is also rapidly going away. So at that time he has to think fast. What is he to do? He says that right now we cannot do anything.

He says arrange for powerful Vanaras and all of you take Rama and Lakshmi and immediately push them back. Since there we have good herbs. There we have our doctors.

There we have the capacity to treat. So he says take it as fast as you can. Once they are out of danger or at least something is being done to take care of them.

He says then I will attack Rama. I will attack them. I will teach them a lesson.

So basically he shows that oh whether this strategy is going to be successful. Whether Rama and Lakshmi if they are so wounded are they going to survive all the way to Kishkindha. If Rama and Lakshmi are defended by Indrajeet what is the likelihood that Sugriva can win over them.

So the strategy itself may have a lot of holes in it. But the fact is that Sugriva does not collapse. Sugriva does not despair and give up.

He shows that I am going to fight till the end. And we have some plan. So sometimes when there is nothing that we can do we just panic and despair and give up.

Or we can do whatever little we can. And this is where Sugriva's loyalty comes out even more. At that time they come to know that actually they don't have to take Rama's power away.

That if they can get this Sanjeevani then Rama and Lakshmi can definitely survive. So there are multiple incidents over there. But the key point is even before Rama, he knows this, Sugriva takes charge of the situation.

And then the last part is how the Lord rewards and blesses the kids. When the Lord eventually the war is over the Devatas come. Now Lord Rama is the God of all Gods.

But here the Devata is acting like a man. So Indra says that you have done a great service to us by killing Rama. So we are pleased with you.

Ask for some blessings. And what does Rama ask for? He says let the Vanaras never have any shortage. And he says those Vanaras who have been killed but their bodies have not been completely disintegrated may put their bodies together and give them life back.

So Rama remembers what the Vanaras have done for him. And then he tells Sugriva you come with me to Lanka. From Lanka to Ayodhya.

He says that you were a part of the campaign that led to victory. So you should be a part of the Lord. And when they are going along, what does Rama do? He says I am going to be united with my family.

Sugriva should also be united with his family. So he tells Pushpaka to stop at Krishkindha and tells all the Vanaras to get their family along. And let all of them come to Lanka.

Now Rama doesn't think what is the Ayodhya Vasis thinking? Rama went to the forest and he brought monkeys with him. Not just one or two, thousands of monkeys. What is happening over here? Rama values the service that they have done.

So such is the bond of friendship. So broadly how does friendship end? There are four stages in what we discussed about friendship today. That we first talk about trust has to be earned.

Whoever we are in any relationship we have to earn trust like Rama does with Sugriva. Then after that there has to be emotions. They need to be understood and addressed.

If two people are to have a relationship there has to be some understanding. This is when Rama consoles Sugriva. When there is an attack of pseudo guilt for him after Vali's death.

Then after that there has to be forget and forgive. So Sugriva makes a mistake but Rama no mention of it. Sugriva himself asks for forgiveness and Rama says forget it.

Instead Rama noted as he appreciates Sugriva and his expertise he appreciates it when his expertise arranges the army. So somebody may have done something bad and they feel bad about it you don't have to harp on it rather when they do something good we appreciate that and then stay true, stay loyal. So we discuss this in terms of many things.

Sugriva rejects Ravana's temptation not only that he also gives Ravana thrashing Ravana is thrashed and trashed over there in front of his own army and then he holds his nerve then Rama falls and Rama falls to Indrajith. So he shows his loyalty and finally the lord rewards him. Reward the service.

Reward what somebody has done for us. What does Rama do? He revives the monkeys and he has them join in the celebration. So in this way it is friendship is not something which is a miraculous event.

It is even the lord shows that it is through incremental actions that trust is earned that bonds are strengthened and deep friendships are forged. So ultimately the Ramayan is about going back to this kingdom of lord Rama. But while we are here how we can develop equal relationships is also demonstrated.

Thank you very much. Is there any one question or comment? How do you understand this in terms of as long as compared to life like transcendental relations and relations in this world how do you understand the difference or is it the same in both contexts? How do we understand the difference? See the important thing is that the principles of forming relationships remain the same everywhere. Whether it is between the lord and the devotee or between two people in the world.

When it comes to relationships the principles they remain the same. If somebody is very selfish somebody is very arrogant then it is very difficult to have a close relationship. So we see the Gopis they care so much for Krishna.

Krishna cares so much for the Gopis. There is a very high level of love but the idea is that there is a principle of selflessness over there. So the principles are very similar what are the differences? It is in the object of love.

There is no one as an object of love like the lord. So it is the lord alone who can liberate us. Now a different relationship can have a different effect on us.

If somebody goes to college and they make friends with somebody who is into drugs. That relationship will pull them down. Somebody goes to college and starts making a close friend with somebody who is very serious about these things.

They become serious about these things. So in general whom we relate with, whom we befriend has effects on us. Positive or negative.

But no one can have as positive an effect as the lord. So he alone is the liberator. Now we don't reduce a lot to an ordinary person but it is true that the principles of remaining, they are very similar.

So the way mother Krishna feels love for Krishna, that is similar to the way a mother feels love for her child. But of course the difference is her child is Krishna. So we shouldn't equate the two relationships but we shouldn't completely separate the two relationships or two kinds of relationships.

And there is nothing to learn at all. So there is abhed, non-difference and there is bhed. So we need to know when to focus on the abhed part and when to focus on the bhed part.

So thank you very much.