From bondage to bonding – Redefining our relationships

[Talk at Goldcoast, Australia] Video:

Hare Krishna. I'm grateful to be here amongst all of you today and I'll speak on the topic of from bondage to bonding, redefining our relationships. There is nothing in this world that causes as much emotions as relationships.

It can be positive emotions, it can be negative emotions. In fact, our whole life is centred on trying to find satisfying relationships. Everything that we do in life, it may be as students, we try to get good grades in school.

As professionals, we may try to earn a lot of money. Nowadays, in social media, we try to get as many likes as possible for our posts, try to get as many followers. Everything we do, it is ultimately an expression of our longing for love.

We hope that by getting more wealth, more fame, more possessions, we will become more lovable, that we will be able to attract more and more people. And if we can attract more and more people, then that's how we feel we will be satisfied, because our need for loving reciprocation will be fulfilled thereby. Now, if we come, if we observe the flip side of this longing for relationships, is that it causes enormous agitation and frustration.

I was just in America last month and gave a talk in a university on overcoming our fears. And before, I was quoting from the surveys, what were the typical fears of people in the 18th century, the typical fears in the 19th century, in the 20th century, in the 21st century. So, there are two fears which have prominently been added in the 21st century.

One fear is the fear of terrorists. And the second fear is the fear of rejection. The fear of rejection.

Now, when people want to form relationships, and unfortunately, relationships are very unstable in today's world. So, there is the fear that I may engage myself in a relationship, I may try to move forward, and I may be rejected. Rejected either before the relationship starts forming, or while the relationship is being formed, or maybe after the relationship is formed also.

Sometimes, I may get rejected. I was at an airport, I think it was Atlanta airport, and there I was just sitting waiting for my flight, and I saw an advertisement. So, it's a young professional woman, and the advertisement, the caption was that, when you have to travel, now you no longer have to leave your life behind.

And what was that about? That was, so this woman was looking very lovingly at a dog. And the dog, you see, it is her life. So, in the past, or maybe a few decades ago also, if you're travelling to take a dog with you in an aeroplane, to take a dog and stay in your hotel, so this was an advertisement actually for a hotel.

And this hotel, it says that, we are customised so that you can keep your pets in your room with you, and all the needs, we have special catering staff, just as we have catering staff to take care of people, we have catering staff to take care of the dogs. And that was what it was, the hotel was advertising that as its USP, as its unique selling point. So, the point is that, actually, it is because people are not able to form relationships with each other, that they find canine substitutes.

Now, all that affection that people would like to repose on each other, when they can't repose it, when they just can't trust anyone, then they start reposing it on some, we can't live without love. So, the result is, in many parts of the Western world, I not look at Australia statistics, in both Europe and America, especially in Caucasian, American, Western families, the number of dogs are more than number of children. So, again, what is happening, people are not able to form relationships.

If I have a child, who will take care of that child? How will you take care of the child? So, relationships are a big crisis. And we long for relationships, but we are not able to form relationships. Are not able to form means you are not able to sustain the relationships.

When we start practising, start getting interested in spirituality, especially when we start practising spiritual life, then we may get a particular conception of relationships, is that say, relationships lead to attachment, attachment leads to bondage, and bondage keeps us in illusion. So, then we may think, okay, as it is, in material life, we find it difficult to form relationships in today's world. And then when we are in spiritual life, we hear that how relationships are the cause of bondage, then that may make us even more averse to form relationships.

And on top of that, we may think that aversion to commitment is detachment. But the two are very different things. Aversion to commitment is not detachment.

What is the difference? That when there is detachment, that means I have no desire to enjoy this thing. But aversion to commitment means, oh, there are so many ways to enjoy. And I do not want to close any door to enjoyment.

I want to keep all doors open. Aversion to commitment means whichever option comes, I want to explore that. So, detachment is that I am not interested in walking through any of these doors.

But aversion to commitment means, oh, all these doors are so nice, I do not want to make any decision. I want to keep all doors open, and I want to walk through whichever door I want, whenever I want. So, sometimes, in spiritual life, if we start thinking that aversion to commitment is detachment, then we may become hard-hearted in the name of being detached.

We become desensitised. And that can become very detrimental even to our spiritual growth, what to speak of our social growth in this world. So, I will talk about the spiritual or the devotional understanding of relationships in three parts.

First is, I will talk about two dimensions of relationships. We have a vertical relationship with Krishna, and we have a horizontal relationship with others in this world. So, when we have a vertical relationship with Krishna, that means that, let me just turn this.

So, when we have a vertical relationship with Krishna, that means our defining identity is that we are parts of Krishna. Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that all living beings are my parts. And we have this as our eternal and central relationship.

Along with that, we live in this world and we have many other relationships. These are all horizontal relationships. Horizontal means with other people in the world.

And the ideal situation is where our vertical relationships, vertical relationship strengthens our horizontal relationship. And our horizontal relationships strengthen our vertical relationship. That means that when our vertical relationship with Krishna is strong, then that helps us to become more tolerant, more sensitive, more respectful, more understanding.

And by that, our horizontal relationships improve. And simultaneously, if our horizontal relationships are also with those who are devoted to Krishna, then sometimes when we feel discouraged, sometimes when we feel lost, sometimes we start having doubts, sometimes when you start having too strong worldly desires, then seeing others who are also practising bhakti and are firm in their relationship with Krishna, that inspires us to also strengthen our vertical relationship. So, this is the symbiotic way in which our vertical and horizontal relationships can work.

Symbiosis means two organisms are in the relationship where both of them strengthen each other. So, our vertical and our horizontal relationships can be symbiotic. But sometimes that may not work out.

So, we do not want bondage in the sense that we do not want entanglement in relationships that are unhealthy, that are damaging. But we do want bonding. We want to connect with other people, with our loved ones.

So, when we are trying to practise bhakti, I'll talk about how our vertical relationship can strengthen our horizontal relationship, how our horizontal relationship can strengthen our vertical relationship. And when these two seem to run in contrary directions, in opposite directions, what to do at that time? Those are the three broad parts of this class. So, first is how does our relationship with Krishna strengthen our relationship with others? In every relationship, there is reciprocation.

We do something for the other person and the other person does something for us. Now, in some relationships, some people expect too much from us and they give too little. And then we feel this person is so self-centred, this person is so selfish.

And some people, they just give so much. We feel this person is such a joy to be with. This is a British playwright, Oscar Wilde.

He said that there are two kinds of people. Some people bring happiness where they go. And some people bring happiness when they go.

So, when that person just leaves, we feel relieved. Now, all of us will have some difficult people in our interactions. So, if our vertical relationship with Krishna is strong, that means that we identify ourselves fundamentally as parts of Krishna, as servants of Krishna.

We are essentially relational creatures. And being relational creatures, we identify ourselves in terms of our relationships. So, I may identify myself as the son of so and so person or the brother of so and so.

We may all identify ourselves as husbands of somebody, wives of somebody, mother of somebody, sister of somebody. And we define ourselves in terms of our relationships. And when a relationship is a part of our defining identity, and if something goes wrong in that relationship, then it is not just that the relationship going wrong hurts us.

Rather, our own self-identity and self-worth feels threatened. If I identify myself as a mother, and I find that my child is going to become unruly, my child is going wrong in wrong directions, and I feel, what did I do? What is my identity? I have failed as a mother. And if I identify myself primarily as a mother, then I failed as a person.

What have I done? If I identify myself primarily as the husband of someone, as the wife of someone, if something goes wrong in that relationship, it is not just the pain of the relationship going wrong, it is our own sense of identity and self-worth that feels threatened. And that can be very disorienting. Normally, to feel unloved itself is very disheartening.

If we are offering love in a relationship and other person is not reciprocating, to feel unloved is very disheartening. But to feel unloveable is devastating. If somebody doesn't love me, that hurts me.

But if somehow that somebody not loving me makes me so disheartened, it threatens my self-identity, self-worth, and I start feeling that I am unloveable, then that is devastating. I am working on a book on spirituality and suicide. So there are many different reasons why people commit suicide specifically.

But ultimately it just boils down to they feel unloved and they feel unloveable. Just that they get so many things going wrong in life and there are many cases when a person is about to commit suicide and one kind word from someone just makes them stop. That's all that is needed.

So we may all have big problems in our lives, but the problems burden us much more when we feel unworthy. And few things cause us to feel as unworthy as when we feel ourselves as unloveable. So when we develop our relationship with Krishna, when we start practising bhakti, it is not just about chanting some mantras or visiting a temple or even memorising some scriptural verses.

All this is very good, but all this should lead to changing our defining identity. By the practise of bhakti, we should be able to identify ourselves first and foremost as servants of Krishna. That is my defining identity.

And in my service to Krishna, I am a mother of someone and the husband of someone and the wife of someone and the daughter of someone. All our relationships we see as ways in which we are serving Krishna. So even if something goes wrong in any particular relationship, we can and should work to set it right.

But that doesn't damage our defining identity. Because my defining identity is I am a servant of Krishna. And that is something which no one can ever take from me.

If I am rooted in that identity, that Krishna is my lord, I am a servant, then no matter how many upheavals come in my life, I can face them without feeling personally threatened. Even small animals, they may not be very malevolent, they may not be very dangerous normally. But if they feel threatened, if they feel as if my life is in threat, then they become incredibly vicious.

So many times, people start hurting each other. They start backbiting. Animals front bite, humans backbite.

So, people who are in a close and very loving relationship, when they start having some problems, the amount of viciousness and vitriol that comes in that relationship is sometimes just shocking. And that's not just because, that's not because that other person has done something terrible. It's more because whatever that person has done, that makes me feel so threatened, that I lash out because of feeling threatened.

And when that happens, then unless that feeling of being threatened is pacified, that viciousness is very difficult to go away. So, when we practise bhakti, if we root ourselves in understanding that I am a servant of Krishna, and then even if people sometimes behave in difficult ways, it doesn't mean that I just endure whatever they do. But I can respond more maturely because I don't feel personally threatened.

I am convinced that I am a servant of Krishna. No matter what, who does in life, no matter how many people leave me, Krishna is not going to leave my heart and go away. Krishna is always there.

The Bhagavad Gita 15.15 says that Krishna says, I'm always there in the hearts of everyone. Even the person who loves us the most and the person who holds us in the tightest hug, that person cannot come ever as close to us as Krishna is always. He's there in our heart.

And the process of bhakti yoga helps us get experience of Krishna. Bhakti is a process. What does this process do? This process gives us anubhav, experience of that Supreme Lord who is transcendental.

Normally, Krishna cannot be experienced simply. Yes, we come to a temple and behold deity of Krishna. That's good.

But we may just think, oh, this is a nice decorated statue. But when there is devotion, bhakti is there, then there is experience of Krishna. And that leads to virakti.

Virakti means detachment. Now, in terms of relationships, detachment doesn't mean being uncaring, being unfeeling, being irresponsible. Detachment simply means lack of dependence.

We don't feel dependent on the other person for our self-worth and self-identity. In relationships, it is said that three kinds of people. There are dependent people, there are independent people, and there are interdependent people.

So, the healthiest relationships are when people are interdependent. And people can be interdependent only when they are independent. If they are dependent, then they cannot be interdependent.

So, our relationship with Krishna, it strengthens us internally, it gives us a security, and thereby we become free from dependence on others. And then we can maturely act in those relationships. So, if people behave, everybody goes through their ups and downs.

Once I was giving a class, and I asked that, in spiritual life, we have to tolerate many things. So, what are the things we have to tolerate? So, one devotee very enthusiastically raised it. Now, this devotee was known to be a difficult person to deal with.

Like I said, some people bring joy when they go. So, he was that kind of person. So, what do you have to tolerate? And then he said, we have to tolerate devotees.

We have to tolerate devotees. I said, yes, that is a good realisation. And even if there is some trouble in our relationship, we don't just go away.

We still stay in the association with the devotees, we tolerate them. But then, as we advance, we will realise that devotees are tolerating us. Initially, we think, oh, I am so good, everybody is a troublemaker, and I have to tolerate them.

But then, as we start advancing, we come to a little bit more of goodness, we can observe ourselves more objectively. And then we understand, actually, I am creating trouble for others also. And others are also tolerating me.

So, basically, in all our relationships, to the extent we are rooted in our identity as servants of Krishna, our own self-conception, as the self, we are souls, but we all have some self-conception. So, when I am in the mode of ignorance, and in tamoguna, these three modes, they shape everything around us. So, normally, in the mode of ignorance, we think that nothing is in my control.

In the mode of passion, I think everything is in my control, or everything should be in my control. And in goodness, I understand, okay, what is in my control, and what is not in my control. When I am in the mode of ignorance, if somebody speaks harshly with me, then I go into self-pity.

No one loves me. Everybody treats me like a doormat. You know, everybody pushes me around.

What can I do? I'm hopeless. So, we go into self-pity, because we feel that nothing is in my control. And the whole world is big and bad, and it is against me.

When we are in the mode of passion, we think everything should be in my control. I tell this person, you should do this. Tell this person, you should do this.

I have this one devotee about whom other devotees had a lot of problems. They said, you know, everybody feels, everybody feels afraid of you, because you speak so harshly with them. This devotee said, if they did what I told them to do, I wouldn't need to speak harshly.

So, the idea is, there is the expectation that I should be able to control everyone. And if I'm not able to control, I think it's my moral right to speak harshly to others. So, in the mode of passion, we think that we should be able to control everyone.

And in fact, every relationship offers a promise to us that we can become controllers. And every relationship gives us the realisation that we are not the controllers. We can't control anyone.

When our children are small, there may be a little more control on them. Of course, children are small, they cry and we don't have much control. But we have some amount of control.

But when children grow into their teenage, at that time, we may feel that, my sweet little girl, what happened? When did she disappear? And who is this sullen, uncommunicable person who is here right now? So, just people change. So, of course, as they grow older, then they also start realising, actually, communication becomes a little better. The author who said that, when I was 15, my father was a fool.

Now, I'm 25. And I'm amazed how much the old guy learned in the last 10 years. It is not that the father learned in the last 10 years.

It is the boy who thought that I knew so much. But he realised, okay, my father also knows things. The child was grown up.

So, especially in youth, we think that I'm the controller. And I should be able to, I can do whatever I want. So, anyway, in the mode of passion, we think that we are meant to be the controllers.

So, both ignorance and passion are unsustainable platforms for having relationships. Because in ignorance, I am always in the mood of self-pity. Anybody does anything to me, I just get knocked down by that.

I just feel, oh, you did like this to me, you did like this to me. Oh, please go to self-pity. In ignorance, we get knocked down by anyone.

When we are in passion, we knock down everyone. So, this way, both of these are not platforms for sustainable relationships. It is only when we come to the mode of goodness, that time, we don't let others knock us down.

But we also don't knock others down. We understand sometimes I may bend backwards, sometimes the other person may bend backwards. So, in every situation, there is something which is in our control, and something which is not in our control.

And the mode of goodness helps us to understand what is in our control and what is not in our control. When that mode of goodness is not there, then we mis-assess, we wrongly assess the situation. And the process of bhakti yoga, it ultimately takes us to transcendence.

But intermediately, to the extent we practise bhakti nicely, we come to the mode of goodness. And in the mode of goodness, we are able to understand situations better. And that way, the practise of bhakti, by bringing us to the mode of goodness, firstly, I said, bhakti situates us strongly in our own identity as servants of Krishna.

That's why we don't feel threatened by what others are doing. If they somehow reject us or they behave unfavourably. Secondly, when we practise bhakti seriously, it brings us to the mode of goodness.

And when we come to the mode of goodness, then we start understanding ourselves better, we start understanding others better. And then the relationship can be on a more realistic and sustainable platform. Now, when we talk about, I talked a lot about how our vertical relationship can strengthen our horizontal relationship.

The second part is now how our horizontal relationship can strengthen our vertical relationship. We are all by our very nature, social creatures. And our desires are not just linear, they are also triangular.

Linear desire means that we see some object and get the desire. Say for example, if, say after this programme, or we see the pizza over there. Oh, pizza, I see that I get the desire, I want to eat it.

But if there is some item over there, which I've never seen, which I've never heard before, I've never seen before. And it looks also a little odd. I may see it, and I'm not getting the desire to eat it.

But then, somebody who I know, they go there and they take that item. They are in Samadhi. They are delighted eating it.

And I see that I also want to eat it. Give me. So here what has happened? Seeing the object did not create the desire.

Seeing someone else enjoying that object created the desire within. So our desires are not just linear, they are also triangular. The Bhagavad Gita says, in association our desires develop.

Sangha is association, Kama is desire. And this principle of the triangularity of desires is utilised extensively by the advertising industry when they have celebrity endorsements. Celebrities make phenomenal amounts of money by endorsing products.

Now some new, say smartphone comes up. There are so many new smartphones come up. But if some Bollywood, some movie star, some sports star says, I use this.

Oh, I also want to use it. So this is triangularity of desires. And this triangularity of desires is especially important in spiritual life.

Because the objects to which we want to become attracted, they may not appear so attractive at first glance. So for example, if we look at the Bhagavad Gita, okay, good book. But there are so many, hundreds of books like this.

But if you meet somebody who loves the Bhagavad Gita, they come up with new meanings, new realisations, they delight in reciting the verses, they delight in studying, they delight in sharing. What is there in this book? I want to know about it. Went around 25 years ago, a friend first approached me and gave me a Bhagavad Gita.

He had been a friend earlier, but then he had become a devotee. So then he said, you should read the Bhagavad Gita. My response was, I already read it.

But then I saw that he was a changed person. He had so much faith, so much devotion, his whole personality. I said, maybe I missed something in the Bhagavad Gita.

Give me, I'll read it. So the desire comes from association. So in spiritual life, the objects do not immediately seem to be so attractive.

We see the deities, okay, nice, attractive looking. But then if we meet some devotee who has been worshipping the deities for years, we talk with them and see their devotion. And then if you know, there is something special here, I want to know what it is.

So the association of those who are devoted to Krishna, their association inspires us to become devoted to Krishna. This is how our horizontal relationships with other devotees can strengthen our vertical relationship with Krishna. And now, the third part, what happens when our horizontal and vertical relationships, they pull us in different directions.

So firstly, let's talk about if this happens among devotees. And then, let's then we'll talk about those who are not practising bhakti. When we start practising bhakti, actually, our spiritual understanding and our spiritual practises are meant to make us more understanding of each other.

But unfortunately, our spiritual practises sometimes make us more judgemental of each other. That means, when we start practising spiritual life, I understand this is right, and this is wrong. We get that understanding from scripture.

And then, when we see somebody doing that, which is wrong, I am right, and you are wrong. And when we become judgemental like that, you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong. And what happens, in every relationship, there are always ego battles.

I want to prove that I am better than you. And then, we start using scriptural standards as weapons in our ego battles. I do this, so I am better than you.

So, for example, if there is a day of fasting like Ekadashi, I fast without water. And then, I go in the kitchen and see who all are eating what. So attached.

Hopeless. Glutton. What is happening? I am following spiritual standards, but I am using the spiritual standards not to go closer to Krishna, but to push others down.

So, my body may be fasting, but my ego is feasting. And I will make no spiritual advancement by that. So, here what has happened? My spiritual knowledge, my devotional practise, it is making me more judgemental of others.

And then, that spiritual practise becomes like a barrier. It becomes like a wall, which stops me from connecting. But, when I actually understand, the Bhagavad Gita says, how should we see all living beings when we have spiritual knowledge? In 6.32, Krishna says that, by comparing with yourself.

See, all living beings are similar. In their happiness and in their distress. Then, such a person is the topmost yogi.

It is significant, Krishna is not saying, one who sees me everywhere, he is the topmost yogi. He has said that in 6.32. 6.30. This is 6.32. 6.30. He says, He says, one who sees me everywhere and one who sees everything in me. One who sees me in everything and everything in me, that person is never lost to me, nor am I ever lost to him.

So, Krishna does say that seeing him everywhere will lead to an enduring connection with him. But then, he does not say that this yogi is the topmost yogi. Yes, they are the topmost yogi.

But, their seeing Krishna should lead to a vision of compassion. That means, I see actually everybody is similar to me. Now, what does everybody is similar to me practically? It means that just as I have my mind and senses, which I have to fight with, which make me do wrong things, which are very difficult to control, which make giving up my attachment so difficult for me.

Similarly, others also have their mind and senses. And for them also, there is a struggle. But, there is a difference.

The difference is that my mind and senses may make some things very easy for me and some things difficult for me. And others' mind and senses may make some things easy for them and some things difficult for me. So, if I say that fasting is so easy, why can't you fast? By my body, by my mind, fasting may be easy for me.

But, somebody else, for them, that is difficult. But, something else may be easy for them. For example, for me, punctuality may be very difficult.

Being, coming on time may be very difficult. Some people, they just can't start on time and they can't reach on time. Some people start on time, but they get lost.

So, punctuality, coming on time is very difficult. Some other people may just be so easy for them to come on time. So, to come on time is not always easy for everyone.

So, the thing is that we evaluate others based on how easy things are for us. Why can't you do this? Their mind and senses are different and that which may seem to be very easy for me may be very difficult for them. So, the point is, rather than saying, why don't you do this? Why can't you do this? You have to understand, rather than comparing that thing, how easy it is, why can't you do it? We can compare their difficulty in doing that thing with our difficulty in doing something to which we are attached.

So, that will lead to empathy, not judgement. So, if we see that all of us are battling against our mind and senses, but the specific battles we are fighting may be different. So, rather than thinking, I am better than you, all are in the same boat, we are all fighting the same war and we are meant to help each other.

So, if we use our spiritual standards to become judgemental, if we start using them as weapons in our ego battles, then we will go far away from each other. And our Krishna Bhakti, actually it is not our Krishna Bhakti, it is our conception of Krishna Bhakti, our conception of practising Krishna Bhakti, that will cause us to go away from others. But if we understand it properly, then we will become more understanding.

And by becoming more understanding, we will actually be able to, okay, this is a struggle for you, I understand, how can I help you? Rather than saying, why don't you do this? How can I help you to do it? So, we will become more understanding, we will become more helping. So, the judgmentality is something which we need to train ourselves to avoid that. Even if there are different devotees with different priorities, different understandings of what is important in Bhakti, still we have to understand that we are all trying to serve Krishna.

And let them serve in their way, let me serve in my way. We can cooperate, fine. If we can't, let us all serve Krishna.

So, if there are people who are non-devotees. So, I cannot go deep into any of these subjects, but I'm just talking broad principles over here. When we are interacting with people who don't share our spiritual values at all, these are non-devotees.

So, what will happen if we become devotees? Initially, it may be that, okay, these people are not devotees, so I want to keep a distance from them. That may be necessary just for protecting our faith. But if we are strongly rooted in our faith, then we can, we can in an intelligent way, share our faith without imposing it on them.

So, people don't care what our spiritual life is. People care how spiritual we are in life. What is the difference between the two? People don't care what our spiritual life is.

That means, they don't care, okay, what do you do in your, what do you believe in? What do you, what mantras do you chant? What rituals do you practise? People don't care what our spiritual life is. People care how spiritual we are in life. That means, how are you different from others? You know, other people are manipulative, other people are political, other people are just short-tempered.

Are you calm? Are you respectful? Are you courteous? That's what they see as spiritual. I mean, spiritual means chanting Hare Krishna, devoting ourselves to Krishna. That's fine.

But that spirituality has to reflect in our day-to-day conduct. Actually, Prabhupada was asked, how do we know your followers? Prabhupada said, they are perfect gentlemen, perfect ladies and perfect gentlemen. So, he didn't say, oh, they are constantly chanting Hare Krishna, they wake up in the morning, they follow this four-legged buddhism.

These are all true. But for, the people are not going to care about that in general. They care about how we conduct ourselves.

So, if, again, if we come to the mode of goodness by our spiritual practises, and we conduct ourselves in the mode of goodness, people will say, oh, this person is a nice person, I want to know more about them. And that way, they will become more inquisitive, more appreciative. So, if we see our interactions with others also as service to Krishna, even if they are not devotees, even if they are not serving Krishna, and even if they don't seem to be interested in serving Krishna, still, our service to them is, let them get a positive impression of Krishna Bhakti.

Let them feel, I met a nice person. I don't want to become like them, but I met a nice person. That itself is good enough.

That is a significant step forward in their bhakti. So, even when people are not interested in bhakti, still, if we are in the mode of goodness, actually, our devotion will help us to connect better with them. Because we will not just be in the mode of passion, aggravating conflicts, or we will not be in the mode of ignorance, carrying hurts.

In the mode of ignorance, when somebody hurts us, our mind becomes like a 100 metre screen, on which that hurt is played every day for the rest of the life. You spoke like that to me. That was 25 years ago.

Yeah, but you spoke like that to me. So, basically, when we come to the mode of goodness, a lot of negativity that is there, is not important. Let the dead past be dead now.

We can move onwards. And when we are practising bhakti, at that time, our own conception of our relationships changes. I'll conclude with this point, and then you can have some questions.

So, as I said that we see all our relationships as services to Krishna. That means that when we are interacting with others, we are not just interacting with them. We are, by interacting with them, serving Krishna.

So, consider a cloth shop, where there are attendants who show the people the clothes, help them fit the clothes, wear them. So, there are some customers who are fastidious, or they may look at 100 dresses and not take even one. Normally, if some customer comes, the attendants will come, and they want to make a sale and get a commission.

But there are some customers who come, when they come, the attendants all go away. We don't want to attend to this person. So, there is a difficult customer like that.

And there is an attendant who is attending to that person. Shows one, two, three, four. That customer is just finding faults with everything.

Now, it's natural, at a human level, to get irritated. But the attendant thinks, you know, there are cameras here, and my boss is watching. So, if the attendant remains courteous, polite, the attendant may not be able to make the sale.

But the boss watches. The boss says, boss later comes and says, you know, you are a cool person. You know how to deal with tough people.

You handle that very well. And although that attendant did not make any sale, the boss may be pleased, and the boss may promote the attendant. You know, you manage this whole floor.

Whenever there are difficult people, they should be sent to you. So, what happens is, in that particular interaction, there was a failure. But because it was not just that interaction, it was an interaction with the boss.

There was a success over there. Similarly, as devotees, when we are interacting with others, some people may be very difficult, very unreasonable. So, if we are thinking, this person is behaving like this, I'll behave like this.

You do like this, I'll do like that. But if you think, no, okay, through this interaction, Krishna is there. Krishna is watching.

Krishna is in my heart. And Krishna also knows how difficult this person is. How difficult, whether that person is difficult or not, how difficult it is for me to deal with this person.

Krishna knows that. And if I try to maintain an attitude of service to Krishna, that doesn't necessarily mean I let the person trample on me. But it's just that I don't just base that relationship on, you did this to me, I'll do this to you.

You base it on, how best can I serve Krishna? When I have that attitude, then I can actually, even if that relationship doesn't work out, even if that interaction fails, I can go closer to Krishna. So basically, when we have difficult people in our lives, then while dealing with them, we can, the attitude can be just as we deal with difficult weather. Say we come to a particular city and we find it's very cold.

What do we do? We have basically three options. Tolerate, mitigate, or emigrate. Emigrate, go to some other place.

So if it's very cold, what do I do? Get used to it. That's the weather over here. Or mitigate, get some warm clothes, make sure that there's abundant heating.

Or if it doesn't work, just walk away, go to some other place. Similarly, sometimes our social weather becomes very unfavourable. Some people just create so much trouble for us.

So again, we have these three options. This person is like this, that's their nature. And okay, this person has this troubling side, but other things are okay.

So let me just tolerate it. Tolerate, endure it. Sometimes we say no, this is very difficult for me to mitigate.

We may decide I will not work with this person. We may have somebody else as a medium, or we may take some action, report to someone, and try to address the situation. Or we may decide this is just not working, we want to walk away from this relationship.

We may emigrate. Now all these three can be done with a negative attitude, and they can be done with a positive attitude. In a negative attitude, if I'm in the mode of ignorance, I'm in the name of tolerating, I let that person walk over me.

And that person becomes abusive, and I just think I'm tolerating, but I'm simply enabling their abusing nature. So that's bad. In the mode of passion, I just head back.

You did this to me, just I'll show you what I can do. And then that relationship becomes like a war field. And not just a war field where weapons are coming from ahead, but a war field with mines planted underneath.

Anything can cause an explosion. It makes life hellish. Or sometimes we just run away.

Now running away is also not very healthy. Because when we run away, our body has gone away, but our mind is still there. We're still fearful.

This person is so terrible, this person is so terrible. But on the other hand, if we have a positive attitude, if we have an attitude of service to Krishna, then we may tolerate. Tolerance in a mode of service means to keep small things small, so that we can focus on big things.

In this situation, this particular person, this particular action is troubling me. But there are many other things which I'm able to do over here. So I'll just tolerate this, keep the small things small, so that I can focus on big things.

So we can do that tolerance with a service attitude. My service to Krishna is more important, so let me not get too consumed by this relationship. Or in a mood of service to Krishna, I may mitigate.

Now this person, if they keep doing like this, they'll keep hurting me, they'll keep hurting others, and ultimately they're going to hurt themselves. Because they want to get the karmic backlash for that. So I'll take some action against them.

But not in a mood of vengefulness, but in a mood of service, to set things right, in a mode of protection, in a mood of protecting ourselves and protecting others. Or we may walk away from the situation. The difference between walking away and running away is, when we walk away, our mind is focused on something else that is more important.

That means I have better things to do in my life, I don't want to waste my life in trying to get in this room, resolve these things, just leave it and move on. And if we do it, not because we are frustrated in that relationship, but because with our service, we know that I have more things to do in my life. Then all these three options can be executed positively in a mood of service.

And so difficult relationships, it's not that all relationships will work, but we can work through all relationships. That means we can work towards Krishna through all relationships. Every relationship, whether it is favourable or unfavourable, that if we have a mood of service, we can grow through it towards Krishna.

And thus, by that, we can actually see our relationships as services through which, just as we are serving Krishna by chanting his holy names, by worshipping the deities, by studying scripture. Similarly, we see our relationship as services, which in different ways help us to move closer to Krishna. So I'll summarise.

I spoke today about how we can redefine our relationships from bondage to bonding. I talked about, we live in a culture today where relationships are a big crisis. Relationships cause the greatest emotions.

They can be emotions of joy, but emotions of distress also. So when people are not able to trust each other, because we want relationships, so we may start lavishing our affection on pets and dogs. But we need human bonding.

So I talked about, we have vertical relationship with Krishna, horizontal relationship with others. So if we are defining ourselves in terms of any horizontal relationship, then the rejection in that relationship will not only make us feel unloved, it will make us feel unloveable and that can be devastating. So bhakti practise is meant to make our relationship with Krishna a defining relationship.

I define myself as a servant of Krishna and all my relationships are services to Krishna. I try to make them work to the best of my capacity, but my self-worth and self-identity doesn't come from these relationships. It comes from my relationship with Krishna.

And with that security, we can act with greater maturity in our horizontal relationships. So if we are dependent on someone in that relationship, when that person does something wrong, we feel threatened and then we lash out viciously like an animal which is threatened becomes very malevolent. So we need to move towards independence.

That means our relationship with Krishna doesn't make us detached. Detached means we don't care for others, not in that sense, but we become not dependent on others. If we misunderstand our relationship with Krishna or we misunderstand the personal bhakti, we may think we mistake detachment to hard heartedness and we mistake aversion to commitment to be detachment.

Detachment is I'm not interested in this kind of enjoyment. Aversion to commitment means I want to keep all doors open. The two are very different things.

So when we practise bhakti and when we become not dependent on others, then we can, as interdependent, form mature relationships. Also, through the practise of bhakti, we come to the mode of goodness and that also gives our relationship a realistic platform. In the mode of ignorance, we think I have no control and I let others trample on me and get consumed by self-pity.

In the mode of good passion, I try to dominate and control others and that alienates them. So in ignorance, we let everyone push us down. In passion, we try to push everyone down.

But in goodness, we understand there are some things in my control, some are not in my control. And we are ready to bend backwards sometimes and we sometimes get others to bend backwards and we move forwards. And that's how our vertical relationship can strengthen our horizontal relationship.

And then I talked about how our horizontal relationship can strengthen our vertical relationship. We are relational creatures. Our desires are not just linear but also triangular.

By seeing others enjoying eating a particular food, I get the desire to eat that food. Similarly, by seeing others practising bhakti enthusiastically, studying the Gita enthusiastically, I feel I want to study this. So because spiritual objects may not immediately look attractive, that's why this association and the triangularity of desires and associations are especially important in spiritual life.

And lastly, I talked about what if our horizontal relationships and vertical relationships run at cross purposes. What is the cause? Sometimes, if our spiritual practises make us more judgemental instead of more understanding, we start using our spiritual standards as weapons in our ego battles to push others down. Then we will alienate them.

But instead, if we see that just as I am battling against my mind and senses, they are also battling against their mind and senses. Their specific battles may be different from mine, but the principle is similar. Then those who can compare others with themselves and see the equality, then Krishna says they are the topmost yogis.

So our spirituality can increase our empathy and thus help us to overcome the differences that may come in our horizontal relationships. Secondly, even if people are non-devotees and their values are different from ours, if we don't feel threatened by their lack of devotion and we don't try to impose our devotion on them, if we conduct ourselves in the mode of goodness, then they will become attracted. So people don't care what our spiritual life is.

They care how spiritual we are in life and how gentlemanly, how cultured we are in our conduct. And if we are that way, they will become attracted gradually. And lastly, I talked about how we re-envision our horizontal relationships also as a service to Krishna.

So the customer may be difficult, but I am working to please my boss. And even if the customer doesn't buy, the boss may promote me. Like that, there will be difficult people in our lives, but rather than seeing that relationship only as an interaction with them, we say, how best can I serve Krishna? And just as when the environmental weather becomes difficult, we may choose to either tolerate, mitigate or emigrate.

Similarly, when a particular person brings a social weather that is difficult for us, then we may either decide in a mood of service to tolerate, keep small things small so that I can focus on the big things. Or I may decide to mitigate, not out of vengefulness, but for protection, protecting ourselves and protecting others. Or we just walk away from the situation because I have bigger and better things to do in my life.

All these we can do in a mood of service to Krishna. And thus, all relationships may not work, but we can work through all our relationships and grow towards Krishna. Thank you very much.

Hare Krishna. Are there any questions or comments? Okay. Why is it so difficult for other relationships to recognise three modes? I'd say that quite often, we have not done a very good job of presenting them.

Either we present them as too otherworldly, too philosophical, too abstract, or we present them as too much of a religious concept. So in today's world, people are very open to wisdom. But how we present the wisdom is very important.

So you could say broadly, there are three approaches that I like to call them as prescriptive, normative, and descriptive. Prescriptive means you should do this. Normative means this is the truth.

Descriptive means this is what I do, and this is why I do it. So if I tell someone, you should stop eating meat. Why should I stop? Who are you to tell me to stop? In fact, as soon as you tell people, don't do that thing, today I'll do it.

So the prescriptive approach doesn't work. The normative, if I say, oh, you know, meat eating is so terrible, you are being violent to animals, that meat eating, this is violence to animals, this, this, this, that's a little better. But still people say, oh, you are quoting some statistics, but I know different statistics also.

Actually, meat is good for your health. You vegetarians have so many health problems. Because you don't get protein, this, this, this.

That can become a debate also. But if I just become descriptive, we don't take meat because we want to be, we see all living beings as creatures of God. We don't want to kill them.

We don't take meat because it causes so much problem to the ecology. Just give reasons without making them feel bad of not doing what we are doing. So if we present things in a descriptive way, rather than prescriptive or normative, people are actually open.

So if we present the three modes, or any other concept for that matter, if we present the three modes as basically frameworks of analysis that help us to make sense of the world. If we come and tell them, you are in the mode of passion ignorance, nobody is going to like that. But if you just present them as tools for analysis, that help us to make sense of the world.

And then we explain those tools and we help them, we explain how they help us to make sense of the world. Then people are interested. There are, I know in America, two devotees who have used the modes as a way of, in their PhD thesis, a way of analysing people's psychological types and explaining things of how, of why certain habits are changeable and why certain habits are not changeable.

So if we present it properly, the modes are a concept which are actually very easily understandable and even acceptable. But if we see the modes, if people see the modes as a tool by which we are trying to impose our ideology on them, then they will not be interested. But if we just present this as tools for analysis and making sense of things, then people are interested, people will be interested.

And those who have tried it that way, it has, it has worked to a significant extent. I would say we have just not presented it much. If we present it, it has a lot of potential.

Any other questions? Yes. In relationships, how do we draw the line between being a control, being controllers and being responsible? Yeah, good question. Actually, being responsible means to some extent being a control.

If I am a mother who is responsible, then I have to control my child. You cannot go out of this house. You cannot go on the road.

You have to control. So, the important thing is not being a controller or not being a controller. The important thing is the purpose.

Why am I being a controller? If I am being a controller in a mood of service, the spiritual master is a controller of the disciple. But the spiritual master is a controller in the mood of service to Krishna. So, ultimately in this world, someone has to take the role of a controller.

But why are we taking that role? So, responsibility means that we take up that role of controllership in a mood of service to Krishna. So, one way of understanding the word responsible is response-able. That means we are able to choose our responses, to choose the right response.

So, if I am taking the role of controllership in a mood of service to Krishna, then I will do it to the best of my capacity. But sometimes some things may not be allowed. And we accept that.

I tried my best. And if it's not working out, I don't feel, I don't catastrophise that failure, thinking that everything is lost. Yeah, this was service to Krishna.

I tried to do that. It didn't work out. That person is also a soul.

They have their free will. And they may sometimes choose their free will properly. Sometimes they may not choose their free will properly.

I did my best. And now I leave the rest to Krishna. So, if we identify with that role of the controllership, of being controllers, and we make that our primary identity, then it is counterproductive.

But if we do it in a mood of service, we do it our best. But we understand that everything is not in our control. So, I leave the rest to Krishna.

So, basically, why do we want to be a controller in any relationship? It's not just that we want that other person to give us enjoyment. That would be mundane. But when we are in devotional service, we want to help that person make wise choices.

We want to help that person grow. Then, if that is the case, we have to understand that everyone has free will. And what does that mean practically in terms of changing people? It means that the door to personal change can be opened only from inside.

That person has to desire to change. Otherwise, they're not going to change. So, what can we do to help them change? Basically, three things.

We can share knowledge. We can provide facilities. We can set example.

Three things. Share knowledge. If we do this, this will happen.

If we do this, this will happen. We give knowledge of choices and consequences. Then, we provide facilities.

To do this, if you want, you can do this, this, this way. And then, set an example. We ourselves act in that way.

So, if parents want their children, say, to become cultured, to become devoted, their parents can provide knowledge, education. Why do we do what we do? So, many times I find that, especially when I was travelling in America, I found that many children who are born in devotee families, they don't know many basic philosophical principles. They don't have answers to basic philosophical questions.

And I thought about it when I talked with them. I realised that for many of us who started practising bhakti in adulthood, quite often, the philosophy came before the practise. We got the answers.

We had questions. We answered those questions. We got those questions answered.

Then, we started practising. Now, for them, the practise comes first. Parents say, okay, go to a temple, do this, do this, do this.

And then, that practise itself shapes their perception in a particular way. And often, they don't get exposure to the philosophy. So, when they get exposure to the philosophy also, often it is very insider philosophy.

Because they are devotee children, so they go to devotee classes. And the basic questions are never answered. So, providing knowledge is very important.

Along with that, create facilities. Children cannot be expected to attend classes for the adults, which are for adults. You may have to have some Sunday school, some fun activities for them, some dramas, some kirtan, whatever they can do by which they can see Krishna consciousness as practical for them, as doable for them.

And thirdly, set an example. If they see us also practising bhakti, and not just practising bhakti, but they see that our bhakti has made us better parents, that example will also happen. So, we do what we can in a mood of service to Krishna.

And responsible means doing the best we can. But responsible also means that understanding that there are things beyond our control, and not beating ourselves up if things beyond our control go out of control. We leave it to Krishna.

Does that answer your question? Any other questions? Everybody wants to be equal in this age. Yeah. Equal.

Yeah. So, I think yesterday itself that plebiscite was there. Okay.

So, see, there is the, when people want to be equal, that means that they don't want hierarchies. They don't want someone to be higher, someone to be lower. So, the important thing is that every social movement is a reaction to some social situation.

And we may, if we are not aware of the social situation, we may see this social movement as a, this is bad, this is bad, that is bad. But why has it arisen? That we have to see also. So, basically, most traditional societies were very hierarchical.

Whether it is gender relationships, or whether it is professional relationships, whether it is governmental interactions, traditionally, it was very hierarchical. But in that hierarchy, there was over the years, a lot of abuse of power. And because of that, there is a reaction.

We don't want any hierarchy. We don't want to be under the control of anything. We want to do what we want to do.

So, the traditional hierarchical structure was in many ways, actually, if it had not been misused by the abuse of power, it would have been much better for people to conduct themselves socially and to grow spiritually. But society has changed today. And from the perspective of recent history, people feel that all hierarchies lead to abuse of power.

And that is why they say we don't want any hierarchy. So, our important point is that we are souls, we are spiritual beings. And the social hierarchies that were there, the social structures that were there, their purpose was ultimately to serve as spiritual take-off points, to rise from bodily consciousness, from material consciousness to spiritual consciousness.

So, there were certain social structures, say, the way in which marriages were structured, the way in which families worked, the way in which social division was there. For example, there was Varanashram in the past. All this is material arrangement.

But that material arrangement was a very good take-off point for growing spiritually. Now, in today's world, those take-off points are being totally disrupted. And we may lament about that.

And we may try to recreate those take-off points. But that is extremely difficult. In some cases, we may succeed.

In some cases, we may trigger so much resentment because of that, and our whole energy may get lost. The important point is not to recreate the take-off point. The important point is to re-replicate the take-off.

An aeroplane, it needs a point to rise from it. But suppose there is a particular take-off point in Melbourne. And in Brisbane, the weather is different, the ground is different.

So, we can't recreate that take-off point. The important point is, how can an aeroplane take-off from it? So, we have to present spirituality, bhakti, as practicable from whatever situation people are in. So, whatever their family background, whatever their gender orientation, whatever the gender roles in their families, whatever be their material situation, bhakti is accessible to everyone.

There are certain take-off points which traditionally were existing and they were favourable. And if they can be recreated today, they may be favourable for the practise of bhakti. But if recreating those take-off points causes so much resentment and agitation, that people start rejecting bhakti itself because of that.

Then we have to say that bhakti is meant for take-off. So, whatever situation you are in, start practising bhakti. Chant Hare Krishna, understand the Bhagavad Gita and rise from bodily consciousness upwards.

If we identify too strongly with any social movement or against any social movement, then we will get caught and consumed in the social wars that are going on. And our purpose is to raise people to spiritual consciousness. So, it is best to not get too caught on either side of the social wars on such issues, but to focus on the principle that we all are meant to spiritually take-off.

And once people start rising to spiritual consciousness, then these social wars, they are not that important. And then they can be seen more perspective and they can be better resolved. So, rather than resenting or rejecting or condemning the demand for equality that is there in this world today, we focus on, okay, if you have equality, what next? What are you going to do with your equality? Ultimately, hierarchy or equality, neither are fulfilling without spirituality.

So, if you want equality, fine, equality, but practise spirituality. That is what we should focus on. Shall we stop? Do we have time? Sometimes our devotional practises may take a lot of time and they may attract us from our social or family responsibilities.

And sometimes we may do our devotional activities also as a means of avoiding our family responsibilities, other responsibilities. So, how can we be mature and responsible? Our devotional service is not just one aspect of our life. Actually, our whole life is meant to be devotional service.

So, yes, we have our direct devotional activities where we go to temple, we chant the holy name, we study scripture. But along with that, we want to re-envision our whole life as service to Krishna. My job is the way I am worshipping Krishna.

Krishna says, swakarmanatam abhyajyam. I am maintaining my family, keeping my home temple and I am serving Krishna through my job. So, basically, in terms of making sure that we do give adequate time for direct devotional activities, we need to separate between, say, material and spiritual.

Yes, this is my time for my spiritual life. I will go to the temple, I will do this, I will do that. So, in terms of categorisation, to give adequate time for spiritual life, that separation of material and spiritual is good.

But after that, while we are doing activities, there is no need to constantly be thinking, oh, this is material, this is not material, this is spiritual. Oh, I am doing this job, it is also material. No.

Ultimately, what is material, what is spiritual? That which is done with the attitude of service is spiritual. That which is done with the attitude of enjoyment, of gratification, nomination, that is material. So, when we are doing something, just do it wholeheartedly.

This is my service to Krishna, let me do it as well as I can. And Krishna Prabhupada explains intelligence. In the Bhagavad Gita, 18.20 to 22 talks about knowledge in the three modes.

But then 18.30 to 32 talks about intelligence in the three modes. So, what is the difference between knowledge and intelligence? So, Prabhupada explains in a 10th chapter purport that intelligence means to see things in their proper perspective. Knowledge means, okay, this is this, this is this, this is this.

But intelligence means, okay, how do they fit together? So, when we are able to see the big picture and we are able to see our role in that big picture, then that is intelligence. When I am doing a particular activity, but I also see the big picture in that, how my particular activity fits in that, and that is intelligence. So, when we are, when we are trying to, juggle various balls, we have our professional responsibilities, our home responsibilities, we have our temple obligations.

Now, we have to understand that my ultimate purpose is to serve Krishna. But at different times, different things may take more time. Say, if I am, say now I will go back from Gold Coast to Brisbane, and there is traffic, we will drive slowly.

There is no traffic, we will move faster. Our purpose is to go to the destination, but how fast we go will vary depending on the traffic. So, our purpose is to move towards Krishna.

But sometimes the traffic of certain activities may become too much in our life. When that happens, we slow down. So, sometimes in our job, we may have deadlines.

Sometimes in our family, somebody may have health issues. So, at that time, we may not be able to go to the temple so much, not be able to do so many devotional activities. So, that is just like the traffic has become more, so goes slowly.

But that does not mean that we are less serious devotees. We have to see the whole picture. At that point, I cannot move faster.

But the test is, after the traffic has cleared, at that time also I do not keep going slowly. Then I will pick up speed. So, eventually when things clear up, we take up our spiritual life more.

And sometimes in our spiritual life, there is a festival, there are some special guests who have come, there is a nashtami, there is a yatra, and then there is a lot of service in the temple. At that time, we may put aside some things. Okay, my job, I can do later, a family responsibility, I can do later.

Let me focus right now on doing this service. We go on some yatra, some pilgrimage, just put other things. So, basically, we have to adjust, and adjustment becomes easier when we see the big picture.

And we understand that all these are a part of my service to Krishna. And sometimes one may require more time, another may require more time. Often balance becomes difficult, because we think of balance as a formula.

We think of static balance. Okay. In the morning, I will do this.

Afternoon, I will do this. And evening, I will do this. On this day, I will do this.

On this day, I will do this. On this day, I will do this. Now, this sounds very good in principle.

In practise, life comes in the way. Now, this comes up, that comes up. So, balance for us is not static.

Balance always has to be dynamic. Dynamic means that our purpose is clear. But sometimes we go slow, sometimes we go fast.

A cycle, somebody is driving a cycle or a bike. Normally, the vertical state is the balance state. But if I have to turn left, then I have to tilt my bike on the left side.

But if after I have turned left, I still keep the bike tilted, then I will go in a circle. And after that, I make it horizontal. And then I have to turn right, turn it towards rightwards.

And I have gone right, and again make it horizontal. So, for a person riding a bike, the balance state is not static. It is not just horizontal.

Sometimes it will be left tilted, sometimes it is right tilted. So, like that, we have to, we cannot expect balance in a static formula. It has to be dynamic.

So, based on our particular situation, we adjust things. And we have to know that even if sometimes our external spiritual activities go down, that does not matter. Sometimes externally our spiritual activities go up, that does not mean we are materially irresponsible.

We keep the whole picture in mind and adjust. So, if in a marriage, the husband is not a devotee, the wife is a devotee, the wife has to cook non-legitimate food for her husband, but the wife also wants to serve Krishna. So, which is more important? Basically, life never offers us fat answers.

So, when I say which is more important, it is not that, normally when our mind says something is important, we make it all important. And something is not important, it is useless. It is not like that.

We have to have a broad sense of balance. So, you can say that even if the husband is not a devotee, you have to see, is the husband, sometimes if he is not a devotee, that is a very broad category. Within that, there are so many, there can be, husband is not a devotee, but maybe pro-devotional.

Okay, yes, you are doing a good thing, non-devotional. You know, you do what I want, I don't care. You can be anti-devotional.

No, you cannot do this. So, there are various grades. Now, as far as a cooking food is concerned, okay, the husband wants to eat non-vegetarian food, that is fine.

It is that he may be okay that he will eat outside, but not at home. He says, okay. I say, no, you have to cook for me.

He says, no, you also have to eat it. They are all various different situations. So, rather than trying to see simplistically that this is more important, this is less important, let us see that our eternal relationship is with Krishna, but also we have responsible relationships in this world.

So, we have to see how we can balance both. That means that if the husband is not allowing one to practise one's own bhakti at all, you also have to eat meat with me, you cannot go to the temple, you cannot do this, you cannot do that, then that may be an extreme situation where we have to understand that my eternal relationship with Krishna is the most important. But again, that does not need to be like an immediate reaction.

People also change. So, we may, if that relationship is already there, we should not take our spiritual relationship with Krishna as a justification for breaking our material relationships. We try to be tolerant, we try to understand, we try to perceive, but sometimes if there is no change, there is no inclination to change, and our submission leads to more domination by the other person, then maybe some strong action is needed.

But in today's world, from what I have seen is, most people, our culture is quite individualistic culture. Individualistic culture means that you do what you want to do and let me do what I want to do. But if you try to force your thing on me, I'm not going to accept it.

So, if a wife can practise her own bhakti, and in serving her husband and taking care of family, she has to do certain things which she would normally not do as a devotee, that's okay. That's not a soul-saturing kind of situation. We don't have to put the two as violently contradictory when they are not.

We try to balance both and move on, and it's not that just because, even if the husband and wife are both devotees, that doesn't mean that they are going to agree in everything. Even then there are differences, even then there are going to be conflicts. So, we have to see that conflict is, especially in this age, it is just the nature.

This is Kaliyuga, so conflicts are going to be there, and sometimes our devotion can become one more reason for conflict. But if that conflict is not preventing us from practising bhakti, we're practising our bhakti, but there are some conflicts. We maturely let time pass and see how things are moving forward.

So, we have our spiritual relationship with Krishna, which is the most important, but then we are situated in a particular situation right now. So, we have our paradharma, which is transcendental, eternal duty, but you also have aparadharma. Aparadharma, we could say, is material responsibility, material duty, material dharma.

And in extreme situations, the aparadharma can be given up for paradharma. But in most situations, which are not that extreme, the aparadharma and the paradharma can be intelligently balanced. If they can be harmonised, that is best.

But if they can't be harmonised, but at least they can be balanced. So, I think if in specific situations some mature thinking is done, some wise guidance is got, then things can move on. You had a question? Sorry, can you speak a little louder? I can't hear you.

It means like, you know what you do to me, you can feed me, you can make me feel terrible, spurn me, and like something else in front of me. That sense of knowing what a part of Krishna's paradharma is, not like he gets angry with Krishna sometimes. That last verse of Shikshashtaka, it sounds sometimes a little bit harsh, but I don't really think that the process of talking with others is quite good.

Yeah. So, if we consider the last verse of Shikshashtaka, it can seem as if Radharani says, you can do whatever you want, you can trample me, you can make me broken-hearted. It seems almost as if she is saying that Krishna, you can treat me like a doormat.

So, how do we understand this? Radharani is actually not like a doormat. There are three different things, first I would say, that the dynamics of our relationship with others and the dynamics of the relationship with Krishna are very different. Now, if we let any other person do that, you know, whatever you want, I will remain.

Then people, other people are not pure. Krishna is pure. He is our eternal and supreme well-wisher.

So, even if we become a doormat of Krishna, in the spiritual world there are blades of grass and Krishna just puts his foot on them and when Krishna puts his foot on them, they feel perfectly fulfilled by that because they have a contact with Krishna. So, interaction with Krishna is very fulfilling because he is our supreme well-wisher. So, we can't take conceptions drawn from horizontal relationship and apply that to the vertical relationship because the personalities involved are very different.

Second point is that with respect to Radharani offering that prayer, the mood there is of unconditional love but there is something more over there than that. Actually, the mood is of a devotee that Krishna, whatever pleases you, pleases me. That doesn't mean that Krishna will exploit me and Krishna is not a sadist who will cause us pain and get pleasure.

We are eternal parts of Krishna and the love of the devotee is such that whatever pleases you, Krishna, that will please me. So, if you desire to reject Krishna, I'm ready to accept that. If you want to accept someone else, I'm ready to accept that.

That is actually the Gopis demonstrate and Radharani is made among them. They're demonstrating the zenith of selflessness. We know that well-known story of how once Krishna got a headache and then Krishna said the only cure for this headache is I need the dust of the feet from my devotees and no devotee was ready to give.

We'll go to hell if we give our dust to Krishna and then the Gopis, they just went to the Yamuna, made a big sack of dust. They take as much as you want. Narada Muni thought, do you understand that maybe these Gopis don't know that Krishna is God and will go to hell.

The Gopis told him that we know that we'll go to hell but we don't care. For us, just the thought that Krishna is having a headache, that is hell for us. We can't bear Krishna's pain at all.

We will do anything to relieve him of his pain. So, that is the zenith of the selflessness of their love for Krishna. Because of which they are ready to do whatever it takes to give Krishna pleasure.

Even if it involves causing themselves pain. So, that is the moor of loving devotion over there. And lastly, in the spiritual world, there is this very elevated rasa of parakiya rasa.

Parakiya rasa means Krishna does not belong to me. The Gopis don't belong to Krishna. That they have some other intention.

But that is not true in the sense that Krishna and the Gopis, all souls belong to Krishna. But that setting is created to intensify the devotion. So, just as when there is opposition, there is intensification.

Now, when we have to lift a heavy weight, our muscles build by that. So, the setting of apparently Krishna belonging to someone else and the Gopis belonging to Krishna, Krishna not belonging to the Gopis basically, the setting is created so that there is some opposition. And through that opposition, there is an intensification of the devotion.

So, Radharani Maharishi said, Krishna, even if you belong to someone else, even if you choose to be someone else, that intensifies her devotion. Because see, separation does to love what wind does to fire. If there is a small candle, wind comes, it will get extinguished.

So, for us at our level, if we get separated from Krishna, we don't come to temple, we don't associate with devotees, whatever devotion we have will get extinguished. But for the Gopis, their love is like a forest fire. Now, when wind comes in a forest fire, forest fire spreads much, much more.

So, for the Gopis, separation from Krishna leads to intensification of their devotion. And it is that intensification of devotion that is expressed over there. Krishna, even if I'm separated from you, you are my lord.

You and you alone are my lord. So, it is a height of selfless devotion, where separation intensifies the devotion. And that is the mood expressed over there.

So, it is very different from being treated like a doormat in an exploitative relationship in this world. So, thank you very much. So, maybe I can just tell quickly about the books.

So, in case, I just mentioned the book, you can just lift it up so that. So, there is a book on Shri Prabhupada, the moment that made the moment. It is a very quick introduction to Prabhupada with his life story described with pictures.

So, people can get to know his saintliness and his contributions. Then there is the demystifying reincarnation, that is my latest book. It first part has scientific evidences, many past life memories, analysis of how they prove.

How they strongly point towards the reality of the soul and reincarnation. The second part in inter-religions, it talks about how in many world traditions and many religions of the world, reincarnation is accepted. The last part is philosophical.

It addresses questions, why cannot we remember our past lives? If souls are eternal, why is the population increasing? Why are ghosts for real? That kind of questions. And there are two books, which are compilations of newspaper articles that I have published, Spiritual Scientist Series 1 and 2. They are very convenient for giving to new people as short reflections. Then let us talk about two more books.

There is one book, do we have Gita for Daily Enrichment? Gita for Daily Enrichment, the big thick book, that is the 365 meditations on the Bhagavad Gita. You can read one every day and you can get a quick understanding of the Gita's message. And there is also 10 Leadership Sutras from Bhagavad Gita.

It is especially for corporate audiences. In companies, how the Gita's message can be relevant and applied today. And there is Idle Worship or Ideal Worship.

Is that there? That is over. Okay, fine. So there are a few other books also.

You can have a look at them. And then those of you who would like to hear lectures, there are two pen drives. One of them has around 2,000 question answers, which are given at different places.

And one of them has around 130 classes, which I gave during my last US, Canada, UK tour. Thank you. Great.