From misunderstanding to understanding – Rama katha 1

[Class at ISKCON, Central New Jersey, USA]

So, my thanks to all of you for coming here today evening. So, as I mentioned a little bit before this introduction, I will speak on the topic of Ramayana.

I will give three different incidents from Ramayana which we will discuss over the next few days and the underlying theme will be moving from misunderstanding to understanding. Now, the Ramayana is a book which is centred on how human relationships can mirror divine relationships. That Lord Ram, He is the Supreme Person.

At the same time, He does not stand above everyone else in majestic isolation. He is a God. He is a manifestation of God who is very much present in this world in the midst of multifarious set of human relationships.

He, of course, is God and the relationship with Him is divine. At the same time, He through the various characters that are there in the Mahabharata and the Ramayana actually demonstrates the whole gamut of human relationships. How sometimes some relationships can go wrong and how some relationships that have gone wrong can be set right and how some relationships can stay right all the time.

And one of the greatest pitfalls in relationships is misunderstanding. The theme of our talks will be from misunderstanding to understanding. And today I will talk about a relationship which began before, much before Lord Ram comes into the picture.

But then Lord Ram helps to restore the relationship. This is the relationship of the two brothers, Vani and Sugriva. Both of them were vanaras.

Sometimes the word vanara is translated as monkeys. However, they are not just ordinary monkeys. The vanaras were celestial apes.

And that means that some of them were as powerful as humans, some of them were more powerful than humans. Vani and Sugriva were actually the sons of the two devatas, Indra and Surya. So Vani was the son of Indra, sorry Vani was the son of Indra.

Sugriva was the son of Surya. Just as in the cosmic hierarchy, among the hierarchy of the devatas, Indra is higher than Surya. Similarly, his son Vani was much stronger than Sugriva.

This is Indra simply because of his power and position is given to bouts of pride and arrogance. Similarly, Vani too was tended to become proud and arrogant about his own strength and power. Just as Indra and Surya worked together to maintain the administration of the universe.

Similarly, their sons Vani and Sugriva worked together to maintain the kingdom of the vanaras. So their father was, so they had many of the characters in the epics, Ramayana, Mahabharata. Often they have a dual set of parents.

So they have celestial parents and their parentage manifests through some agent in this world also. So Rikshiraj was the king and when Rikshiraj retired at that time, Vani as the eldest son became the king. And Sugriva became his faithful assistant.

And the two brothers were inseparable. They were so powerful together that nobody could challenge them. And the vanaras lived in safety and prosperity under the protection of these two brothers.

Now Vani and Sugriva together were like the house of two sons. Extremely powerful, very difficult for you to counter. And normally there are many people in this world who are proud of whatever they possess.

So generally speaking, whatever we possess, if we want to get some pleasure through that possession, we have to parade that possession. If I have wealth, then I have to have a very expensive car, very expensive house, very expensive clothes. By that I parade my wealth.

And then when I see the admiration in people's eyes, actually more often than not, it is not admiration, it is envy. When I see that, then I feel, yes, I have arrived. I am successful.

So the idea is, whenever there is strength, people want to parade. Whatever is it that we have, that we are proud of, we want to parade it. And we think that's how I will get measured.

So there were many demons who also lived at that time in the earth. And these demons, they are very proud of their strength. So we humans are actually intermediating the cosmic hierarchy.

So devatas are above us in consciousness and in power. The asuras, they are below us in consciousness, but they are above us in power. So the Rakshasas, many of them, they felt that who are these Vamaras? We will show them.

So once a demon of the name Mayavi, he came to the kingdom of the Vamaras and he challenged our Valu to come for a fight. So actually, even there, we see that when Valu came to attack, Mayavi was a demon. But even such a demon, he did not come in to the kingdom and start attacking innocent people.

So what he did was, he stood outside the Kishkindha kingdom and he challenged, oh, you think you're so powerful? Come out and fight with me. I will crush your body. So even the demons had some principles.

They would not attack innocent people. Sometimes, I was just a few days ago at Jacksonville University in Florida. And then after a class, a student asked a question.

Now, religion is the cause of so much violence in today's world. And you see that sometimes people say that Islam is the cause of violence. But we see even in the Indian epics, there is so much violence.

So why is it that religion is always associated with violence? So I answered that actually, yes. Now, we should not have a paranoia for violence, in the sense that even when you want to keep peace, often the United Nations deploys a peacekeeping force. So for peace, we need force.

So that means, there's some violence that is good, it's for causing peace, for bringing about peace. There's some violence which is bad, which is simply brutal. So if we compare, see the violence that is described in the Mahabharata or the Ramayana, so the principles based on which whatever wars were fought, were that the warriors would fight equally.

So the battle would be between equals. And not only between equals, equals when they are equipped. Now one warrior would not attack, another warrior was not at all equipped.

And not only equipped, you may have a gun, you may have a bow and arrow, but if you're shooting someone, somebody shoots from the other side. No, they're equipped and alert. So the war, it was, the wars were a test of skill and expertise.

Who is a better archer? Who is a better swordsman? So it was about equals who were equipped and alert. But today, if we see the violence that is perpetrated in the name of religion, especially done by terrorists, it's exactly the antithesis of this. The terrorists, they attack civilians.

They are no means equals. They are not trained to fight. They are not equipped to fight.

And they're just civilians just going along in their normal way of living. And suddenly, when a suicide bomber comes and attacks, some people come and shoot. So this is completely an antithesis of any kind of principle of war.

The closest we get anywhere to this kind of violence in the epics is Ashwatthama's killing of the Pandava warriors and the Pandava sons at night on the 18th night of the Avalokiteshvara. And that is universally condemned. Even Duryodhana condemns it.

So the kind of violence that Ashwatthama does, all of the warriors are sleeping and he goes and kills them. So even the villain of the Mahabharata condemns it. But that is the kind of violence that is perpetrated in the name of religion by the terrorists.

So we can't conflate all violence together and say that religion causes violence. Actually, there is often, there is just as the police have to have guns, but the police using guns and terrorists using guns is very different. So here we see even the demon, Maya is a demon, but when he comes to fight, he doesn't start working heroically.

He stands at the outskirts of Pishti and bellows out the challenge, Oh Vali, come and fight with me. Now Vali springs from his throne and charges out. And Sugriva is alert.

He knows that these demons can be tricksters. So it could be Vali is more than capable of overcoming any demon. But this might be an ambush attack.

There might be a whole horde of demons who might attack Vali. So Sugriva also goes with him. So Vali intends on having a fair one-to-one fight.

But in case the demons are planning something devious, Sugriva is there to guard. But now when Maya sees both of these giant looking monkeys charging towards him, he gets shaken. He shrinks back in fear and then he assesses their strength.

He is also a warrior. He knows how strong he is. He realises, I have no match against them.

And he flees. Now as he flees, Vali starts thinking. He says, this demon, he has the audacity to come and challenge me right on the outskirts of my kingdom.

If he is not punished, then he is likely to come again. So he gives cheese. And this demon is trying to shake him off, shake him off.

And he runs into this thicket, goes into that forest. He tries to hide in the wilderness. Why? The Vandaras are also adept.

They are also creatures of the jungle. So they keep teasing him. And finally, in despair, he just jumps into a cave and disappears into it.

Initially, the Vandaras, initially, Vali and Sugriva think that, oh, we have got it now. And this cave, we cannot escape. But as Vali enters the cave, he observes and he realises, actually this cave is the entrance to a vague network of underground passageways, catacombs as they are called.

Complex maze is there underneath. So he tells Sugriva, you wait here. We don't want him to escape without punishment.

I will go inside and we'll catch him. Sugriva says, no, this is dark. These demons are dangerous.

They are devious. Let me come with you. Both of us will go together.

Vali says, no, we have to make sure that he doesn't escape. You stay here. Sugriva pleads with him.

We don't know what danger is there inside. Let us both go together. Vali says, no, you stay here.

Reluctantly, Sugriva agrees, the younger brother. So while Vali goes inside, he just goes deep inside. Sugriva is standing guard.

And time ticks on and on and on. Sugriva is waiting and waiting and waiting and nothing seems to be happening. He tries to peer in.

It's pitch dark inside the cave. Things are going inside. But then he realises that the demon might escape.

He doesn't want to disobey his brother. He stays on. And finally, after a long time, suddenly he hears the roar of the demon.

And he tries to wait and hear. He doesn't hear any sound of his brother. As he keeps waiting, keeps waiting, there's complete silence.

He's waiting, waiting, waiting. And when there's deathly silence, that's all that he hears, his heart starts sinking. He has heard the demon roaring, but he has not heard his brother.

He starts thinking that somehow this demon in the darkness of the cave must have ambushed Vali and killed him. He starts thinking, his blood is boiling with anger. He wants to avenge the death of Vali.

But then he starts thinking, if this demon is powerful enough to have killed Vali, who was much more powerful than me, will I really be able to kill him? And if I am not able to kill him, if he comes out, if he defeats me, if he kills me, then I'm a criminal and stay unprotected. And he will go. And with both my brother and me dead, he will break everything, plunder everything.

So, he decides that discretion is the better part of the game. So, he decides not to fight with him. And so that this cave became the tomb of Vali.

So, let that cave also become the tomb of Vali's people. Thinking thus, he looks around and he finds a huge boulder. He goes to that boulder and starts pushing it with all his strength, pushes and pushes and pushes.

And finally, he gets that boulder on the mouth of that cave and covers it. And with a heavy heart, he goes back to the kingdom. And going back, he announces to the citizens about what happened.

And there's a statewide mourning on the death of the king. And then, after all the rituals are completed, the courtiers tell him, so do you that the kingdom needs a king? And Vali's son, Angada, is still very strong. He cannot become the king.

And Vali, you were the second in charge. So, now you should become the king. So, Birivaya has no heart.

His heart is filled with grief. But still, the call of duty summons him and he agrees. Now, as he ascends the throne, he still thinks of Vali and the sad fate Vali had been in the past.

And meanwhile, Vali had to search deep into the cave. And finally, when he had found the demon, he had pounced on the demon. And when he pounced on the demon, because Vali had been searching for the demon for a long time and he attacked the demon at that time, the demon screams.

But when they have a fierce fight, Vali overpowers him. Because they're deep inside the cave, Vali doesn't want to waste his energy. He's got the demon in his hands, so he doesn't roar or shout.

He fights and he finishes the demon. And then he comes out. And as he's coming out triumphantly, and as he comes to the end of the cave, he sees light.

He's retracing his steps back and he comes to the end of the cave, he doesn't see any light. He says, what's going on here? And he comes and he sees there's a huge boulder over there. How did this boulder come over here? Sometimes there are earthquakes and earthquakes just cause some rocks to move here and there.

But he finds that this boulder is exactly covering the cave. Sugriva is supposed to be here. Instead of Sugriva, there's a boulder.

So what is going on? He starts becoming suspicious. He says, of course Sugriva has put this boulder over here. He says, no.

Sugriva is my brother. He's like my second half. I don't trust him.

No one I trust more than him. He will not betray me like this. No.

But if he's not done this, how could this, this boulder have just exactly covered the cave like this? Now, he is underneath and pushes at the boulder, pushes at the boulder. He just cannot, he cannot, he really can't budge. He's being tired.

He's tired of the long chase, the fight, and the return. He collapses. And he falls asleep over there.

He wakes up. As soon as he wakes up, the pitch darkness. He's hungry.

He's thirsty. And all this adds to his anger. And again, he starts pushing.

He's not able to push at all. As his efforts lead to greater and greater failure, not only does the anger increase, but suspicion also increases. Such a big boulder, so firmly placed.

It cannot be by chance. How could Sugriva do this to me? Thinking like this, he becomes more and more angry. Finally, with a superhuman effort, a super simian effort, he's not a human, so he just pushes.

And he manages to get the boulder off. And seething with rage, charges back into the cave. When he comes there, he sees Sugriva sitting on the throne.

His suspicion is gone. Sugriva, he conspired to kill me and now he's enjoying royal comfort. Sugriva will see Vali alive, he's delighted.

Sugriva gets up to offer his respects to Vali. And Vali charges towards him to start pounding him. Sugriva is stunned.

As he sees the fury and the hatred in the eyes of Vali, he understands. He's also a king, a king means he's also for the royal family. He understands that Vali must have suspected, Vali must be thinking that I trapped him over there.

He tries to explain to Vali, but Vali is so angry. He just doesn't hear anything. He just keeps pounding and pounding him.

Sugriva tries to defend himself. And he tries to fight back. But at this stage, he has no heart left to fight.

There's a thought that his own brother, for whom he had dedicated his life, has not only suspected it, but has convicted him. He's not even ready to give a chance for him to speak. He's not even giving him a fair hearing.

That causes heart to sink. Rather than fight, he just decides to flee. Things like later, maybe when Sugriva has cooled down, Vali has cooled down, then I will try to explain.

Between like this, he flees from there. And when he flees, Vali's suspicion gets further confirmed. If he had not done wrong, why would he feel like this? Sugriva is a wretch.

I trusted him so much. He betrayed me so bitterly. He starts charging after Sugriva to keep beating Sugriva.

Sugriva flees and flees. And now, Vali returns back to the kingdom, but then he uses his royal power to pursue and persecute Sugriva. Sugriva has to flee far and wide somehow to find a shelter somewhere.

Finally, he finds a shelter at the banks of the Kampasarovar. A sage who had been angered by Vali's arrogance. He told Vali, if you come here, you will be killed.

And therefore, Vali cannot come there. And there, Sugriva stays in fear, knowing that though Vali cannot come, Vali may send his aegis to kill him. And that's when Ram comes there.

After Sita has been abducted, Ram comes there with Lakshmi. Vali is on top of the mountain and he sees what is going on. Who are these two strange looking mystics? Normally, Ram has the garb of a mystic or a mendicant or a sage.

But then he is carrying a bow and arrow. He says, who are these three so powerful? And either they are Brahmin or they are Kshatriyas. They are dressed like Brahmanas, but they are carrying weapons like Kshatriyas.

Who are these? Could they be agents of Sugriva? So, could they be agents of Vali? He starts becoming fearful like this. So, here we see that Sugriva becomes so fearful constantly of how Vali will attack. And Vali, the same brother whom he had loved so much, is constantly thinking how can I finish this person? So, if you look at the whole story, what went wrong? How could two brothers who loved each other so much that they were ready to lay down their lives for each other? How could they become such mortal enemies that one of them was ready to kill the other and the other had to flee for his life constantly being fearful? Actually, this incident illustrates a fundamental human tendency that, a fundamental human tendency that often ruins relationships.

And that tendency is the tendency for judging without understanding. We see certain situations and we see the situation without understanding the situation, we judge it. We see somebody doing something, what is this person doing like this? So, we all, when we interact with people, all that we can see is their behaviour, their actions.

Now, we can't see their intentions. But, we all, based on their actions, we ascribe intentions to them. This is called attribution.

Attribution means we see a behaviour, we see action, and we attribute a particular intention to people based on their action. And often, we attribute intentions based on our own preconceptions. So, for example, if I don't like someone, for whatever reason, I don't like some person.

And then, if I see that person eating a lot, I say, this person is gluttonous. This person is gluttonous. See, how much he is eating? What is this? No sense control.

How much he ate? On the other hand, if he likes someone, he must be very hungry. Of course, if I eat a lot, I am also hungry. So, our attribution, what intention we attribute to a person when we see their actions, that is based on our preconception.

And in general, we are very generous, very charitable when the attribution comes to those whom we like or to ourselves. Now, if we see somebody, if we don't like sleeping for a long time, such a lazy person. If I sleep for a long time, I am tired.

So, in this way, we see actions, we can't do intentions. We assume his intentions. We say attribution of intentions.

And this is where we go wrong. Now, Vali and Sugriva both made inferences. And the inferences of both of them were wrong.

So, both of them saw certain things. Sugriva saw that Vali has gone deep inside the cave and I can't hear any sound. So, based on the evidence that he had that I can't hear any sound of Vali and he's gone deep in, I can hear only the sound of the demons.

I heard only sound. From this evidence, he inferred that Vali is dead. It's a reasonable inference.

Similarly, Vali inferred, he saw first this rock, this boulder which could not have been moved by an actual force and positioned in such a precise way, that is covering the cave. Somebody must have done it. So, the boulder was one evidence.

Maybe Sugriva has done this. And then, he saw Sugriva sitting on the cave, that is another evidence. He put two and two together and he came to 22.

He didn't come to 4. Then boulder was put by Sugriva. Sugriva is sitting on the cave. He put the two together and he said that Sugriva must have intentionally put that boulder there to shut me down and grab the cave.

So, again, from his perspective, based on the evidence, the inference was reasonable. So, both of them based on whatever knowledge they had, they made certain inferences. And their inferences were reasonable.

And interestingly, both their inferences were wrong. So, Sugriva's inference was wrong because Vali is still alive. And Vali's inference was wrong because Sugriva had no bad intention.

But the problem, the difference is that Sugriva was in a situation where then he could not, he felt that he could not risk any error. That means, he felt that if this demon is so powerful that it could kill Vali, then I have to protect my kingdom. I have to do what it takes.

So, he closed the door of the cave, the entry of the cave. As far as Vali was concerned, you know, he was much more powerful than Sugriva. And Sugriva had already served him for so long, so well.

So, Sugriva was at least, he was at least entitled to a fair hearing. So, what happened with Vali is he judged without understanding. Normally, we know a basic principle in any court case is that if the plaintiff is there, the plaintiff gives the complaint.

Sometimes there are these, there are maybe some TV serials where the court cases are being shown. Now, if we hear just the plaintiff, the complainant side of the story, and by the end of, by the time the complainant's lawyer makes the case, it is completely proven this person is guilty. And then you hear the defendant's side of the story say, hey, I never thought of this, never thought of this, I never thought of this.

So, usually what happens for us, when we, when we observe something. So, in a court case, whoever speaks first, we tend, they present their case in so persuasive a way that we think they are right, till we hear the other side of the story. So, we understand as a principle of natural justice, that before a judge makes any decision, the judge should hear both sides of the story.

This same principle, we need to apply in the court of our own heart. In the court of our own heart means, whenever we see a situation based on our own conceptions about the people involved, our mind immediately comes up with a story. They did like this, maybe they meant like this, they meant like this, they meant like this.

Now, this is our mind's version of the story. There could very well be a completely different version of the story. And we do not know it.

So, now, in one of the fondest pastimes of people is gossiping. Gossiping means what? That word gossip, in Sanskrit, in the Bhakti literature, it is prajna, it is useless talk. But gossiping essentially means what? We talk about a problem with someone who is neither a part of the problem nor a part of the solution.

You know what he did, you know what she did, you know what she did, you know what she did. Actually, what are we doing by that? Certainly, there are things which are going wrong and they need to be solved. But then, if somebody is a part of the problem or somebody is a part of the solution, then talk with them.

Otherwise, what purpose do we serve by spreading negativity? Often, it is that if we feel that somebody has done something wrong, it is best to seek a clarification. If we have a relationship, seek a clarification from that person. If not, seek a clarification from someone whom that person knows, who knows that person.

Otherwise, we end up talking about people instead of talking with people and talking about someone instead of talking with that person. And that just spreads misunderstanding. It spreads misunderstanding further and further.

What that person did, what that person did. And it becomes like a small thing can become huge. And actually, there is very little basis to it.

So, our mind is telling one side of the story and then we tell that story to someone else. Can you keep a secret? Can you keep a secret? We tell someone. Yes, of course, I can keep a secret.

And then we tell them. And then they go ask them. Can you keep a secret? And in that way, what happens is, everybody tells everyone else to keep a secret.

But they themselves won't keep a secret. So, what is secret becomes public knowledge. And in that way, the misunderstandings can spread not just from one person to another person to hundreds of people.

And nowadays, with internet available, one person has some idea about someone. You just put it in one mass mail, send it on one WhatsApp group, put it on one, put it on some website and you can just spread conceptions all over the world. So, technology is very powerful.

But its power is value neutral. If intelligent people use it, if wise people use it, good people use it, it can be good. But otherwise, it can cause a lot of harm.

So, the tendency to judge without understanding, that is a tendency which is present in everyone else. You know, in cricket, there is the concept of giving the benefit of doubt. Suppose a batsman is running and the batsman has to get into the crease before the fielder hits the wicket.

And the batsman is just almost inside. Then the third umpire will check from the left, from the right, from the inside. Is the bat is inside the line? Has the bat touched the ground out? And if they can't make out from various directions, then they give the benefit of doubt.

Okay, the batsman is inside. So, there is doubt. There are times when we can doubt.

And there are times when we need to do the benefit of doubt. So, as far as Sugreeva was concerned, as far as Wally was concerned, his relationship with Sugreeva. Sugreeva deserved the benefit of doubt.

Why? Sugreeva was his own brother. Sugreeva had to serve him faithfully. He knew Sugreeva right from his childhood.

Now, it is possible that sometimes people can change and people can do terrible things. But, if somebody whom we love and trust, we are accusing them of something terrible, then we need to have concrete evidence. Otherwise, it is just a chain of inferences.

This means this, this means this, this means this. The chain of inferences that we have, it can just be our imagination going wild. So, in the case of Wally, he saw Sugreeva, the evidence was reasonable.

As I said, the evidence was there. And from that, his inference was reasonable. But actually, for us, in whatever situation we are, based on whatever we observe, our mind spins a story.

And for us, our story is the most persuasive. Why? Because I am right. I am so clever.

How can I be wrong? And quite often, it makes things worse. Once we make a particular judgement about someone, then it doesn't just remain a judgement about that person. It becomes an ego issue about us.

How could I be wrong? If somebody comes and starts presenting evidence, you did like this, you spoke like this. But you know, this person is like that. You are biassed.

You are partial to that person. So, instead of considering the possibility that I may be wrong, we start blaming whoever starts presenting the case of that person. So, Wally, after he banished Sugreeva, there were times when he felt some pinches of conscience.

Did I do something wrong with my brother? Just send him off into the forest. And he had his spies. And the spies, he knew that Wally was living in the Pampas lake area, was living in the forests, without any royal comforts.

And he was also a prince, a king practically. And he, for him, this was just like Ram was one day about to become the king, the son of the king, and the next day will be the post. Similarly, for Sugreeva, one day he was the, he was next to the king, and next day was an exam.

So, it was a great austerity for him. So, Wally felt some pinches of conscience. But he crushed them.

He crushed them. Why? Because he felt, I have made the judgement, my judgement must be right. So, we need to, so, whenever we judge people, actually it is best that we don't judge people.

Because when it comes to judging, unless we are putting in the time and thought and energy to understand both sides of the story. Based on one side of the story we judge, we are often wronged. And understanding both sides of the story often takes time.

If we are in a position where that matters, that issue matters very strongly to us, if we are in a position where making a decision is vitally important for us, then before judging a person, especially before publicly speaking negatively about someone, now we need to very carefully go through things. For Wally, he was the king and Sugreeva was on the throne. So, for Wally to drive Sugreeva out of the kingdom, in the eye, public eye of everyone, it's a very strong public statement of condemnation.

Not just condemnation, but conviction. So, many, and I like to call this as the recipe for ruining relationships. We all took out recipe for doing things positively.

No recipe for cooking this, none of, we all want to maintain our relationships. But, we often succumb to judging without understanding. And if we do that, even the best of relationships that we may have, they can be ruined.

So, now, what could Wally have done differently? Simple thing. He could have just allowed Sugreeva affair here. So, when we see somebody doing something, which we feel is objectionable, where we feel that what they are doing is objectionable, then what do we do? We, if we feel it's a matter important enough for us to need to know what is right, we just go straight to that person.

And not in a judgemental way, but in a gentle way, privately. I saw this, and I couldn't understand. What was happening? What made you do that? And then, they'll explain.

Sometimes people can also become very defensive. And we need to be careful about it. But, seeking a clarification, at least shows that person that we are not immediately judging them.

We are not immediately condemning them. Not only did Wally not seek a clarification, Wally did not hear the clarification even when Sugreeva was trying to give that. And this way, Sugreeva had to live in the forest for a long time.

When Ram came into the Kishkindha area, at that time, eventually, through the agency of Hanuman, that's a long story. I won't go into that. Hanuman, Wally told, Sugreeva told Hanuman, you go and find out who these brothers are.

And in order to maintain, conceal Sugreeva's location and identity, Hanuman changed his form. He went to the reserve of Ramana. And he enquired from Ram and Lakshmana.

When he found out they were Ram, that he was the prince of Ayodhya, he was delighted. And then he came back. He brought Wally and he brought Ram and Lakshmana to Sugreeva.

And Sugreeva told his whole story. Now, what happened at that time, Wally did not just drive Sugreeva away. Sugreeva had his own palace.

Sugreeva had his own family. So, when Wally drove Sugreeva away, he not only disentitled him of his position in the royal family, he took everything away from him. And somehow, Wally got an idea that because Sugreeva has betrayed him, because Sugreeva has taken, Sugreeva tried to take from me what was mine.

Therefore, to punish him, I will take from him what is his. So, he did not give him any of his royal emperors. He did not even take anything with him.

And even Sugreeva's wife, he took for himself. Now, when Ram heard this, Ram was furious. He said that Elder brother is meant to protect him.

And for Elder brother to treat him like this. Here we can see the difference between how Ram treats Bharata. Ram could also have, we will talk about that tomorrow more.

You know, Ram could have been suspicious of Bharata. Maybe Bharata was conniving with Karikeya. But it is very different.

So, Elder brother is often in the position like a father, son of a father. So, for him to treat you so badly, it was atrocious. Since he deserves to be punished.

Now, Sugreeva also described how again and again he had tried to send messengers, tried to seek reconciliation, tried to offer clarification. Never once was he willing to listen. So, Ram and Ram decided, we will punish him.

So, he told Vali, he told Sugreeva, you go and challenge Vali. Sugreeva said, how can I challenge him? He is much more powerful. He says, don't worry.

I will be there in the evening. So, he went and challenged. And at that time, Vali came out and they had a fight.

Sugreeva fought to the best of his capacity. But Vali was too powerful. Vali was beating and beating and beating Sugreeva.

And finally, Sugreeva fled from there. Sugreeva fled. At that time, Sugreeva came running back to the place where Ram was hiding.

Ram was there. And they came back to the hiding place. And Ram came and said, he said, you know, if you are not going to help me, why do you send me for fighting? So, Ram said, actually, I wanted to help.

But both of you look so similar. I couldn't recognise you. So, now, when he asked, how can Ram, he's got, how can you recognise him? So, then what happened? Ram told Sugreeva, you know, there should be some difference.

So, Lakshman here has his garland. He put on his garland. And Sugreeva, he came before Lakshman.

He put his head down. And Lakshman put the garland down. The Acharyas explained that actually, Sugreeva, although he was the younger brother of the king, Vali Vali the king, he was the younger brother.

But he had some pride in him. And he thought that Ram is my son. But Lakshman, he's an infant.

So, when Hanuman actually brought Ram and Lakshman to meet Sugreeva for the first time. And Sugreeva, understood who they were? Sugreeva, he had a, even in the forest, even in the forest, there is etiquette, there is hierarchy. So, there is a, there's a stump of a tree on which Vali was sitting or Sugreeva was sitting.

And then Vali pointed to another stump of a tree. It was more or less the same height. And he offered that to Ram.

But he did not offer anything to Lakshman. But Lakshman, the younger brother, I will talk with Ram. So, when Hanuman saw this, Hanuman was very sensitive.

And Hanuman immediately brought stump of a tree and gave it to Lakshman. So, throughout their dealings, Sugreeva was quite negligent of Lakshman. Now, Lakshman is, Lakshman, Balaram, they all represent the that is the spiritual master and the representative spiritual master.

So, Balaram wanted to demonstrate that one cannot get the mercy of God without getting the mercy of God. So, when Sugreeva was garlanded by Lakshman, at that time, he bowed down so that he could put his garland. That way, he offered his respects to Lakshman.

And then, after that, Sugreeva went to fight again. Sugreeva was a little fearful. He said, Ram, are you really going to help me? He said, yes, I don't mind.

I am going to help you. Sugreeva went and again challenged. Now, Bali was in the inner chambers.

He said, I gave this monkey just a big beating. How will he come back again? He wanted to be beaten again. He immediately got up.

And now, Bali's wife, Tara, was very intelligent. She said, wait a minute, wait a minute. He said, yes, Sugreeva is also intelligent.

He knows that he is not as strong as you are. If he has again come to fight with you, I am sure it must be only because he is backed by someone who is more powerful. Otherwise, he would not come.

And now, Bali had become so arrogant, so over-confident of his strength that Bali would not eat a book and threaten him. I am so powerful. So, every king has to have some espionage, some spies.

And the spies report the movements of one's enemies. But Bali was so proud that he would not pay any attention to the spies also. But Tara was still very diligent and she would also help in the royal affairs.

So, when the spies would come and give news, if Bali would not pay any attention to them, then Tara would give news. And then Tara would convey to Bali whatever she felt was important. So, Tara told him, you heard from the spies that Sugreeva has formed an alliance with Ram.

And Ram is an extremely powerful person. He has killed three formidable demons in the Atataka. So, he says, if Ram is there, then Bali will be in great danger.

He said, don't worry. There is no danger for you. I will fight against anyone.

So, he just neglected Tara's words. And he just charged out to fight. As he came out to fight, again Bali and Sugreeva had a fierce fight.

And soon, Bali had the power. He said, I am beating Sugreeva. And Ram was behind her.

He came out and took an arrow and shot. When he shot that arrow, it just went in the chest of Bali. It just fell on the ground.

Bali was shocked. He says, who has shot me like this? This is grievously against the principles of warfare. He looked around and saw Ram standing there.

So, then he turned towards Ram. He says, how is it? I thought you were a virtuous king. And you have fought so viciously.

You have attacked me without warning me when I was fighting with someone else. This wicked Sugreeva, first he tried to kill me. Now, he has spoiled you also.

He has contaminated you also. Because of this, you are fighting with us. So, Ram came out and Ram was very compassionate.

He said that, oh Bali, before judging whether I have killed you fairly or not, since here what I have to say. And if you think that I have wounded you unfairly, I will take out this arrow and I will kill you back. This is Ram's voice.

He can do whatever he wants. He is God. Then Ram gives, there is a whole chapter in the Ramayana where Ram accuses and Bali accuses and Ram counters.

Ram gives multiple reasons. First reason he says is that actually you, you know, there are aatthayanas, aatthayanas are aggressors. People who commit crimes, especially people who commit brutal crimes, there are various categories, somebody who murders, somebody who burns, somebody who attacks someone's family, somebody who steals property.

Like that, those who are some, those would be somebody who is poisoned. Those were aggressors like this. Now, they have already committed such a crime that there is nothing wrong in punishing.

You see, sometimes if the criminal is very brutal, the police may give a shoot at sight order. So, normal criminals, they have been given a fair hearing. After that, there is a sentencing in the court and then the person can be punished.

But if the criminal is particularly despicable, then there is a shoot at sight order. This person is so dangerous that we cannot afford to consider the possibility of such a person slipping up. So, just as soon as you see, shoot at sight.

This is exceptional. It is not the norm. Normally, police are expected to give a fair hearing.

But there are times when this kind of order has to be given. So, similarly, in the Vedic culture, it is stated that actually if a person attacks with murderous intent, aggressor of this kind, then the important thing is to bring that person to justice. So, if it can be done by normal means, that is fine.

If not, then whatever means is required, use that means. So, now he says, because you had attacked Supriya, because you had tried to kill him, because you had dispossessed him of his kingdom, because you had stolen his wife, for elder brother to cohabit with his younger brother's wife is almost like incest. Because of all this, he says, you deserve to be punished.

The Ramayana commentary explains that actually one of the reasons why Vali was so undefeatable, Vali had overpowered Ravana also. At one time. The reason why Vali was so undefeatable was that he had got a benediction that whoever he would have to fight with, half of that person's power would come to him.

So, whatever power that person has, Vali has his own power, that person has his own power, whatever power that person has, half of that person's power comes to him. So, that person's power will always become lesser than Vali's power. So, because of that benediction, the odds were always stacked in favour of Vali.

So, Vali just could not be defeated by anyone in a straight fight. Now, of course, whatever benediction whoever gets from anyone, Ram as God can change that. But he defers to the cosmic order.

So, if the devatas have given some blessings, then he honours that. So, Ram decided that that's how he would kill. He says, you are aggressive and whatever means, your crime that you have committed is so despicable.

You attacked your brother so viciously that it arises, you deserve to be shot at sight. That's what I did with you. It's a long to and fro argument.

And finally, Vali is all silent. He acknowledges that what he did was wrong. Actually, for Vali also, his, Ram's arrow, initially, it crushes his pride because for a great warrior, he has fallen on the ground.

But Ram's heroic words, they purify him. The arrow which has humbled him now and the Ram's words which have illuminated him, this combination actually helps him realise the error of his ways. He, as I said, he also had these pangs of conscience.

Am I treating so good up there? Am I doing something wrong? But he just squelched them. He had not paid any attention to them. However, now when Ram speaks this, when he is confronted with the gravity of what he had done, at that time, he has no denial.

He just has to accept. I have done that. I have blundered everything.

And when Ram again repeats the opposite, he says that, if you still think that I have done anything wrong, I will give you a life sentence. So, actually, Ram's words, Ram's contacts. But here, we have to see that Vali is not a demon.

Sometimes, there is a clear fight with the Rakshasas, Ravana, Kumbhakarna, they are demons. In reality, it is a demon. Vali is not a demon.

Vali is also a pious person. He is a virtuous person. He is a king of a devata, son of a devata.

But sometimes, such bitter misunderstandings can happen between two pious people. Two people who are good, they can have a really bad fight. So, but Vali's conscience is combating.

His godliness manifests. And he tells Ram, you know, all our lives, one can get many. But a death like this in your presence, it is very bad.

So, I prefer a death in your presence. And, you see, his heart completely changes at that time. His heart changes, and he realises that he has blundered everything.

So, Ram's arrow could have killed him immediately. But Indra had given Vali a necklace. And that special necklace, as long as he wore it, life would not leave his body.

So, although he had been terribly wounded, and although he was in pain, still, life would not leave his body because that necklace was there. And what he did, naturally, every father would like the best of his possessions to go to his son. That's what parents, they accumulate things so that they can pass them on to their children.

So, now, after Vali falls, a news spreads throughout Kishkindha. And then, Angada, Tara, all the courtiers come running out. And Angada is right next to Vali.

But Vali, he has this necklace. He starts taking his necklace out. And he realises that he had created a terrible split in the family.

But he wants that split to end with him. So, he turns towards Sudriva and he says that Tara was very virtuous. She was very intelligent.

And she told me to patch up with you. But I was so foolish that I didn't listen to her. He says, Angada, he is a very valiant young man.

So, Sudriva, whatever wrongs I have done to you, please don't take the anger out on them. They are innocent. And he turns to Angada and he says that please don't blame Sudriva for what has happened.

This arrow that has hit me, it is because of my own mistake. And then he tells Tara to stay under the shelter of Sudriva. He would be the patriarch of the family thereafter.

And then, these are the last breaths, he takes out his necklace. And he could well have been justified in giving that necklace to Angada. The father would give his best position to his son.

But he gives that necklace to Sudriva. And this is the way he shows his remorse. He seeks forgiveness from Sudriva and he says this to me.

I treated him very badly. But sometimes when we have made serious mistakes, an apology is important. But apology alone is not enough.

We have to show through our actions also that we mean it, that we made a mistake. So through this action, Vali convinces that how dependent he is. And that means that with that necklace, Sudriva will practically be innocent.

And he gives that necklace to Sudriva. And as the necklace slips out of the hand of Vali to the hand of Sudriva, life slips out of Vali's body. Vali falls dead on the ground.

And all the Vanaras, they start crying in sorrow. Sudriva starts thinking, this was the brother with whom I played, this was my childhood. This was the brother with whom I learned the skills of a warrior.

This was the brother with whom we went on so many happy exhibitions. This was the brother with whom I fought against so many demons. This was the brother with whom I ruled this kingdom.

And this same brother is lying dead because of me. Because of my dream for a kingdom, for a kingdom, I have caused the death of my brother. Thinking thus, he starts crying bitterly.

And he says, the same funeral pyre will kill my brother. I will light another funeral pyre. And I will die.

He says, I have committed the crime of that suicide. I have killed my own brother. And I do not deserve to live.

So, both Lakshman and Rama, they console. Sudriva tells him that the soul is eternal. The soul comes into the body, stays for a particular duration, and then goes into another world.

Vali's soul has already come to auspicious destination. The best way you can show your love for Vali, you can show your respect for Vali, is by carrying on the responsibility that he has entrusted to you. It is for you, okay, now to show resilience.

To show, come over here and lead your citizens who are in grief. It is not for you to give in to grief. We speak words of wisdom.

We say, Sudriva picks himself up, emotionally and physically. And Sudriva arranges for a royal funeral for Vali. Thereafter, after another period of mourning for his brother, then he ascends the throne.

And he enthrones Anjana as the prince. And that way, thereafter, they serve Rama together. So, here we see that there is a reconciliation.

The Pandavas in the Kauravas, there was no reconciliation. Why? Because one part was totally demoniac, totally dead. But here, Vali was not demoniac.

And Vali learned, realised the error of his ways eventually. He repented it upon. So, all this could have been avoided if this tragic confrontation with brothers, ending the death of one brother, all this could have been avoided if just a little patience had been shown by Vali and some clarification had been sought.

Now, here Rama intervened. If Rama had not intervened, that animosity could have gone on throughout their life. Although it continued throughout their life, at least before death, there was reconciliation.

And that's how Rama brought these two brothers together. So, when we, I talked earlier about how we can try to avoid judging without understanding. When, if you look back in our life, there are many times when we actually judge without understanding.

We have already probably judged people without understanding. So, what do we do at that time? That is also illustrated through the actions of Vali. So, what did Vali do? If you consider the actions, I put them three in a triple A acronym, A-A-A.

First is acknowledge. Acknowledge. Acknowledging is to recognise, accept that I made a mistake.

So, acknowledgement is internal. Second is apologise. We express whatever, that I made a mistake to the person who has heard of that mistake.

And third is admit. When we do practically certain things, we can't undo the past, but we can rebuild from the present. What has been done can't be changed, but we can chart a better future.

So, by this way, whatever hurts have been done, they can be rectified. So, by acknowledging, by apologising and by admitting, we can start healing the relationships that have been strained and wounded by our tendency to judge without understanding. You can ask me questions.

So, I started by talking about the story of Vali and Sugriva, how they were brothers, sons of God, sons of Devatas all together, but they both made mistaken inferences. Based on the evidence available to them, their inferences is very reasonable. But the evidence available to them was incomplete.

Now, Sugriva could not afford to be the benefit of doubt at that particular time, because he felt the whole kingdom was at stake at that time. But Vali could have been the benefit of doubt. And all the more so because for Vali, his brother had always been a trustworthy aide.

But unfortunately, when we see somebody's actions, we attribute intentions to them. And that attribution, which we do is based on our preconception about the person. If we like them, we give a positive attribution.

If we don't like them, we give them a negative attribution. So, and once we attribute a particular intention to people, then whatever they do after that, that reinforces that conception. Because he is like that, because she is like that, that's why they are doing this.

And any evidence to the contrary that is presented, we just reject it. We silence it. In that way, now first our judgement is mistaken.

And then once our ego comes into the picture, we stick to that judgement against contrary evidences. That's what unfortunately Vali did. He did not hear Sugriva's case.

He did not hear anyone present in Sugriva's case. He did not hear his own conscience. So, whenever any judge has to make a judgement, the judge needs to hear both sides of the story.

So, our mind, as soon as we see a particular thing, when we do attribution, our mind tells us one side of the story. But there is always the other side of the story. Instead of talking with others, we end up talking about others.

And talking about others, x to y, z, a, b, c, e, every a, b, c, d, e, everyone we talk, but except that particular person. And then in that spot, we gossip. Gossip means we talk about particular situation, the person who is either part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

And then eventually, Ram had to intervene. And through Ram's physical, martial and verbal intervention, there is a reconciliation. So, when Vali was humbled by Ram's arrows and Ram's arrow networks, he completely repented.

And his repentance was expressed through his giving his life-sustaining necklace, not to his own son, but to his brother, Bhuvi and Ram. And he acknowledged, he apologised and he amended. So, by being patient, we can avoid judging with our understanding.

But if at all we have judged, then we can try to rectify our wrongdoings, in a time of more circumstance. Thank you very much. So, in spiritual life, we are often expected to do a lot more than others, in terms of being patient, tolerant.

But if we are judged or misjudged by others, what should we do as disciples? Three different things involved over here. First is that we can never satisfy everyone. The easiest way to make ourselves miserable is to try to make everyone happy with us.

We just can't do it. So, some people, no matter what we do, they are going to be dissatisfied. So, we just have to understand what service I have to do in my life and continue doing that service.

And people will speak something about, if we are consistently doing our service, then our actions will speak louder than words. And having said that, there are certain devotees who are important for us, some of our spiritual guides, those who are in positions of authority or positions of what are they guiding us. Now, with them, we can also give a clarification, especially if we have one or two devotees who understand us well, then they can become as a bridge between us and others.

And through them, we can convey our side of the story, and then it can be clarified to others also. Another third, so that's the second thing. We don't have to bother about what everyone is thinking about us.

But if important, we can be clarified that is enough. But sometimes, it happens that nobody seems to understand us. Now, I'm giving this whole answer based on the assumption that we are actually being misjudged.

Sometimes it may be that we have also done something wrong. That's a different situation. But assuming that we are misjudged, if whatever we do, nothing seems to be clarified, nothing seems to be resolving things, then that is the time we should know that this is the time for us to fix exhibits and problems.

Because what happens, sometimes certain karmic reactions come to us in particular ways. So it is not just that particular action to which we are getting the reaction. It's a small thing.

Why are you making so big? You understand that it is not just a small thing. Yes, the small thing has become big. But there is some karma involved in the past.

If we look at our life and other situations, you know, we may have made some big mistake, but we got away without any penalisation for it. So in the long run, actually life balances out. So when this happens, when we find that here there is misunderstanding, there there is misunderstanding, there there is misunderstanding, we just know that this is a bad patch we are going through.

So when we understand it is a bad patch, what can we do? Stop it. When everything in life, everything in the material world is temporary, the pleasures are temporary, and the problems are also temporary. So even if there is a misunderstanding, everybody, you know, in Tanuja, people's memories are short.

So today there is one controversy, there is one misunderstanding, and tomorrow they will find some other misunderstanding, some other controversy. And once they go to second, third, fourth, by the time they come to fourth of it, the first one is already completed. So we don't, we shouldn't take it too seriously.

It's at that time, know that we are going through a bad patch and don't overdo it. Just continue doing what we are doing as well as we can. And over a period of time, then this understanding goes away.

So we should just focus on our service to Krishna. And as a service, we can try to clarify. But if the clarification doesn't work, we understand that the clarification I did, we shouldn't, as we say, we should be attached to the fruits of our work.

So sometimes we also have to apply that to clarification. We shouldn't be attached to the fruits of clarification. Sometimes we may offer a clarification and things may not get clarified.

We have to understand that as long as the main service to Krishna is going on, then sometimes some clarification may work, sometimes things may not work. If we're consistently serving, consistently doing our best, over a period of time, things will get clarified. Great.

Any other questions? Yes, there are two things. One, your question is, you know, Sugriva and Ravali, they had different fathers, so if Sugriva and Ravali, they had different fathers, Indra and Surya, how were they considered brothers? Actually, sometimes the Devatas, when the celestials give birth, it can happen in different ways. So in this particular case, actually they arranged for both their children to come in this world through Riksharaj.

Riksharaj was the king of the Vanaras, and they entrusted these two children whom they had, in the heavens, they entrusted them to Riksharaj. So Riksharaj, or the king of the Vanaras, he was like their foster father. He was the person who took care of them.

And for all practical purposes, they lived as the children of Riksharaj. And because he was their common father, that's why they are considered brothers. Yeah, and the other question I had was, you mentioned that, you know, after Ravali passed away, Sugriva was lamenting that, look what I have done as a result of my grief for a kingdom.

I don't know if that's just, you know, an emotional expression of, you know, because he had done so much soul-searching and introspection before he decided to make that cave Ravali's tomb. And he decided that he was really going to serve the throne to the protection of the kingdom, not for personal gain. So how did he go from knowing that he had done that in good conscience to now saying that look what I have done as a result of a kingdom.

Okay. So when Sugriva felt that I have killed my brother for my own grief, so he had actually very conscientiously thought out before putting the hole on the cave. So why did he think like this? Actually, at this point when he was thinking, it was primarily about Ravali's being shot by Ram.

That particular situation where Ravali had been killed, he felt it was I who teamed with Ram and then Ram shot Ravali because of me. So he was thinking because of me he was killed. Now Ram consoled him, see there are emotions which we all go through and our emotions, they don't always reflect reality.

But our emotions reflect also our orientation, our sensitivity, our attitude. You say if a person is starving on the streets, now one emotion will be they are just suffering the results of their crime. Now we may say this philosophically true, but from a point of your sensitivity, if we are in a position to help them, we can and should help them.

We can give them some prasad, something we should do. So sometimes the philosophical reality and the emotional sensitivity, they both need to go together and they may not go together. If I just focus only on the philosophical reality, if everybody is simply suffering because of their karma, that's all.

If we start looking at the whole of life in terms of karma, I'll talk about this in one of future classes, we can end up with a very hard heart. You know, if a baby is crying, should the mother think baby's crying because of her karma? All the mothers will take care of the baby, isn't it? So just we cannot have the philosophical realm, the philosophical reality in one sense is the object to reality. Karma is the object to reality.

But we also have to consider from the view of emotional sensitivity. So here it just reflects Sugriva's soft-heartedness, that he was not a power-hungry person who had deviously conspired to have his brother killed so that he can grab power. Even after he had been wronged, even after he had justifiable grievances, then when his brother fell, still he felt grief.

That shows his soft-heartedness. Does this answer your question? So he was not at all to be blamed, but his feeling reflects his soft-heartedness. And that's why when Ram consoled him, he accepted it.

He knew that in the back of his mind, he knew that he would not be blamed, but still he felt, you know, because of me this happened. So these feelings simply reflect his sensitivity. I think it would be easier for me to accept that explanation, that somehow he could be soft-hearted, yet, you know, yet not denying the fact that he did act.

You know, somehow, I wish there was a two-fifth of this, you know, his sensitivity, without denying, you know, that he did act. So Sugriva, he could have been in good conscience and he could still have been sensitive also. He could have said that I acted in good conscience.

See, there is, when it comes to emotions, the emotions that we feel, they don't always follow the rules of logic. So if we see Yudhishthira Maharaj in the Bhagavatam, after the whole Tumshetra war happens, he feels that, you know, I caused this war. For my sake, this whole war was caused by so many people.

Now the reality is far opposite to that, because Yudhishthira did everything possible to avoid the war. Sometimes we say, I have done everything humanly possible. Actually, Yudhishthira had done everything humanly possible and everything divinely possible.

Krishna, God himself has gone to Shantiniketra. So, when we see people's emotions, especially under moments of stress, you know, then we should see them, we can't start analysing, oh, why? Why are you not thinking logically? At that time, we just appreciate the heart of the person. If they stick to that illogical emotion, then it becomes a problem.

If Yudhishthira started acting on it, I will not lose, I will renounce the war. Let everybody object. No, no, you can't do that.

Sugriva did not do that. So, especially under moments of stress, our emotions may go in various ways. And we are not, nobody is to be judged based on those emotions.

So, even Lord Ram, sorry, Laksh, Krishna tells Arjuna that the wise person does not lament at the time of death, does not lament on seeing the death of anyone. But when Abhimanyu is killed, Arjuna is grief-struck. And Krishna is not as Arjuna.

He forgot Bhagavad Gita now. He didn't say that. No, Krishna is sensitive.

Krishna is gentle. Krishna is consoling. Krishna is encouraging.

So, when a person is going through a particular set of emotions, at that time, we have to encourage them to come back on the right track. We don't have to just dismiss their emotions as illogical but sensitively get them on the right track. So, it was stated in a lecture that when we see someone's actions, we attribute intention depending on whether we like them or not.

So, my question is, if Bobby and Sugriva are brothers and there is so much love between them, how could Bobby immediately think that Sugriva's, or yeah, who would think that Sugriva's intentions were ill-minded, if he already had a positive attribution to this brother? Good. So, if we attribute intention based on our perception of people, why would Vali attribute negative intention to Sugriva? Actually, it was not legit. First was that in the cave, when he saw that the cave door was closed, from that time, the suspicions started coming.

And then he tried to push and push and the more that came, the more this could not have been done naturally. Some person must have done it. And eventually, when he came out and when he saw Sugriva on the throne, when I am alive, how can he be sitting on the throne? That was like a confirmation for him.

So, generally, yes. So, at that time, he was already exhausted, he was frustrated and he was infuriated. That is not at all a good situation emotionally to be in to make a judgement.

You know, if there is a court case going on against us, we do not want the judge to be in an angry mood at that time. We do not want the judge to be exhausted at that time. Sometimes, say a cricket match is going on and the umpire is so exhausted, the umpire wants to go home.

The umpire starts every appeal, out, out, out. So, the judgement has to be done with patience. So, actually, there was circumstance also involved over there.

But because he was in an emotionally starved state, you could say, exhausted, frustrated, infuriated, that is how through it, through a chain of events, first the boulder closing and then Sugriva sitting on the throne, both of them coupled. So, that is how his normal perception of Sugriva slowly got reversed. So, right from seeing the boulder, his positive perception started changing.

And eventually, when he saw him on the throne, complete negative perception came. Thank you, Shantanu. Thank you for the excellent talk.

We have heard this instance so many times about the death which you give on the cricket match. I have one question to you. You talked about how Sugriva and Ravindra, who they were friends, they were guardians, they were just because of each other.

Now, in this situation, when we talk about relationship with devotees, how do we make sure that we don't misjudge or misunderstand the aspect of cosplay itself? Or due to conditioning, even with the sex part, how do we reduce the gap? So, among devotees, how do we ensure that we don't misunderstand others? Or if we misunderstand them, how can we come back to understanding soon? Actually, our bhakti is meant to make us more understanding. But unfortunately, understanding of others, but sometimes our bhakti makes us more judgemental about others. Because what happens, we have our own conception, this is right, this is the way to do things.

If anybody is doing anything in a different way, it's wrong, wrong, deviant, this, that, that. We are very quick to pass ascribed needles to others based on our conception of potential. So, actually, if we internalise the philosophy adequately, not just at the intellectual level, but also at an emotional level, my bhakti is not just under this is the principle, but we also understand the reality of the complexity of life.

Then we'll understand that there can be many factors involved. Okay, this person is acting in this particular way, how much do I know about this person? So, it can be something, it can start with something very simple, something very big. So, I remember once I was, I'm in Mumbai temple and it was a festival, so after the festival I came for lunch prasada to the temple kitchen.

And then I had come a little late, I was talking with some devotees after the programme. So, by the time I came down, I saw much of the prasada was over, the sweet was over. So, I felt a little annoyed.

And I saw a senior devotee sitting on the opposite side, he's a senior brahmachari, he, there was already sweet in his plate and the sweet had got over. So, then, immediately after I sat down, this devotee started asking, you know, is there any sweet, is there any sweet? He's asking one sarovar and he said, no, the sweet is over. He asked another sarovar, is there any sweet? I said, what is this? He already had one empty bowl of sweet.

And the sarovar has told you there is no more sweet available. Why are you asking everyone like this? Second person, third person, asking everyone like this, because he's a very senior devotee. And everybody started running around, is there any sweet somewhere? And many times when prasadam is being served, so, the devotees who are serving, they make their own plates beforehand.

They keep them aside. So, one devotee finally brought his own plate and from his plate he started serving sweet. I was thinking, how is that? You already had one empty and you want somebody else's plate sweet for yourself.

And just as he was about to serve the sweet in his plate, he said, no, not for me, for him. And he pointed to me. Why? He pointed, he did not get sweet, please give him sweet.

So, he was asking for sweet, not for himself, but for me. So, normally when somebody asks for sweet, it's actually what they wanted for themselves. So, in one sense, my attribution is perfectly logical.

That was totally wrong. So, we just can't know why devotees are doing things. Vaishnavira Priya Mantra, Vigyahana Bhuja.

Because it comes in that we can't understand how devotees act. Now, this does not mean that anything and everything within the devotee community is accepted. But it's important that we don't judge based on one of instances.

And so, by knowing that, by knowing that we don't know much about others, we don't know much about what people are thinking, why they're acting in particular ways, it is best to give people benefit of the doubt. Especially devotees. If they are practising bhakti, if they are practising the principles, they are generally devoting substantial part of their lives for Krishna's service, then something which is going wrong, why should we make a big issue out of it? Now, having said that, there can be certain actions of some people, it just disturbs us too much.

Now, if we feel disturbed, then it is best to seek clarification. If it's just a small thing, we know this, sometimes we see something with question mark in that. But then afterwards, we move on, we forget that.

No need to make an issue out of it. But something troubles us again. Why did you do that? Why should you do that? If that kind of question keeps troubling us, then better to seek clarification.

And when we seek a clarification also, it's important to be non-judgemental. Non-judgemental means simply describe the observation. As soon as we start stating our influence, then it becomes judgemental.

So if you just tell the observation and then seek it out. I couldn't understand what was happening over there. And then, probably they will give a clarification, some single devotee will give a clarification.

And even if sometimes that clarification may not satisfy us, so especially if that devotee has also been practising bhakti for a good amount of time, they have also been serving Krishna, then we have to understand that there are different ways in which Krishna can be served. And Krishna can inspire someone to serve in a way that is very different from the way Krishna is inspiring me to serve. So we should not limit the service to Krishna in terms that is only comprehensible to us.

So the service to Krishna can assume many, many forms, different from what I am comfortable with, what I am capable of also. So that way, even if we can see that, okay, this is one thing which I don't understand, but let me put it aside. Let me focus on my service to Krishna.

That way we can minimise the disagreements that come or the misunderstandings that come. I feel that if we clarify, most of the time we get some understanding. And the misunderstanding then decreases.

What makes things worse is that instead of seeking clarification, when we start giving a judgement, then the other person becomes defensive. Or sometimes we talk with 10 people before talking with that person. And those 10 people have already told that person, this person is thinking like this.

And then when we talk with them also, already there's a lot of negativity that is coming. And then it becomes explosive. So best is to seek clarification in a non-judgemental way, right in the beginning from an authoritative source.

And if you find some senior Vaishnava whose way of explaining makes sense to us, just go to them, seek clarification and move on with life. We don't have to make ourselves self-appointed watchdogs of everyone else. That's not our role.

We are here to serve Krishna. Let's keep serving Krishna. And if something is wrong with someone, that is between them and Krishna.

We don't have to take that position where we have to judge others. Most important, I would say, for avoiding misunderstandings is focussing on our own service. It's the idle mind that is the devil's workshop.

So when we don't have enough service to do, then we start looking at other services and finding faults with it. If we have enough service to do, then okay. Whatever others are doing, how does it matter to me? Let me focus on my service to Krishna.

Does that answer your question? Yes, sir. Thank you. I have just two questions.

The first one is, does knowledge have any correlation? Knowledge. Yes. So why is it? In my own personal experience, while I was looking for this course, I could get a sense that I was a judgemental person when I had deep knowledge.

It's either this person or that person. So this is my first question. My turn.

Let me complete this. Does knowledge have any relationship with being judgemental? Yes. More than knowledge, it is the attitude that develops through the knowledge.

That means that knowledge is ultimately a tool that we will use based on our attitude. So if, say, somebody has medical knowledge. Now medical knowledge can be used to heal.

A doctor can use medical knowledge to heal a patient. But the same doctor can actually use the medical knowledge to complicate the disease of the patient so that they can get more money from the patient. So knowledge is simply a tool.

And it is our attitude that determines how we use that knowledge. So some of us have, by default, a judgemental mentality. That's just the way we are.

It's not necessarily bad, but we all have different conditionings. Some of us have a more judgemental mentality. If we have that, then our knowledge often reinforces that judgemental mentality.

But if we use the knowledge conscientiously to open our minds, to understand that actually, in one sense, in the Kena Upanishad, it is said that one who thinks he knows, he does not know. One who thinks that he does not know, he knows. That means that actually the more knowledge we get, the more we understand how complicated life is.

How many subtleties and nuances and shades of grey there can be in every situation. So the more knowledge we get, that is the way our knowledge evolves. Not so much in terms of just see how much I know.

But the more knowledge we get, the more we understand how complicated the world is. Then that knowledge engenders unity. Just like the scientific knowledge of the space.

At one level, people may say that we have conquered space. We have gone to this celestial body, that celestial body. We have conquered space.

At the other level, if we consider, the more we have come to know about outer space, we just understand how tiny we are. As compared to the vastness of space, the earth is like a tiny marble. We are in a vast, vast, almost infinite space.

So the more we have come to know about outer space, the more we have come to know how little we know about outer space. Because there is so much more to know. So like that, knowledge can also bring unity.

And when that happens, then the judgemental attitude goes down. So it will depend on our basic attitude, how we use our knowledge. But if we especially get knowledge from those who are non-judgemental, or we associate with those who are non-judgemental, then our basic attitude can be changed.

And then that knowledge, instead of leading to judgement, judgement happens when we think we know. But if there is humility, see humility in the physical domain means we bow down, we fold our head in respect. Humility in the intellectual domain means we admit that I don't know.

That I don't know. At least there is a possibility that I may not know the full story. That is humility in the intellectual domain.

So if we get that humility in the intellectual domain, then our knowledge will make us less judgemental. Did I answer your question? The last one, how to remain quiet, and also how to remain quiet without being too agnostic, in the state of distress. Agnostic? Yes, that is to say, let me get away from the situation and be calm, and how to maintain that state.

Because I have a job and I interact with lots of people across the country. Sometimes it is hard to interact with all the people around. But how to remain quiet? Because that leads to confusion.

Okay. So if an environment has a lot of people, and there is some amount of distrust, then how can we remain quiet and agnostic? Actually the focus need not be on being quiet or agnostic, or becoming assertive, or all-knowing. The point, focus can be on our purpose.

Now what am I here to do? It's like if I am driving on a road, the most important thing for me to know is, okay, what is the traffic on the road? Which road, which turn I am to take? Which turn I am not to take? Now, if along the way there is scenery, I can look at the scenery. If along the way there is some dirt and foul smell, I just pass through it. The important thing is not whether there is beautiful scenery or whether there is dirt and nastiness.

The important thing is whether I am in my journey. So, if we keep our purpose clear in any situation, okay, what am I here for? What am I trying to do? Then that purpose creates focus. See, when the purpose is not strong in our mind, then our mind does not have purpose.

Think about this, think about that, think about that. If our purpose is clear, then that focus on itself helps us understand, okay, which situation I need to understand how much, where I need to clarify, where I need to understand, where I need to judge, how much I should spend my energy in what. All that falls into place once our purpose is clear and we are focused on the purpose.

But if, say, we are going to some office or some appointment, then we don't bother too much about what is the scenery around us. It is just going on a casual stroll and we will see everything. So like that, if you understand that this world itself, it is not our destination.

It is not a destination, it is a station. We are in a multi-lifetime journey. We are evolving towards God.

The situation that we are in, it is just one station in the journey of life. We keep that in mind. We have to grow spiritually.

We have to do whatever it takes in terms of our responsibilities in this world. Our purpose is on doing those responsibilities and growing spiritually. Once our purpose is clear, then how much time and energy to invest, how to approach various situations, all that becomes much clearer.

So if you keep the focus in mind, then whether to stay quiet in some situations, whether to express our concern in some situations, whether to take a stand in a particular situation, all that will fall into place once the priorities are clear. If you keep our focus in mind in all these questions, we will ourselves get the overall sense of perspective by which to understand this. Thank you very much.

Śrī Prabhupāda ki! Śrī Rāmacandra Bhāgavān ki!