Ghosts and God – Understanding how the invisible affects the visible

[Seminar at ISKCON, Scarborough, Toronto, Canada] Video:

Hare Krishna. Grateful to be here amongst all of you today. And today I'll speak on the invisible world and how it affects the visible world.

So in that invisible world I'll talk about reincarnation, ghosts, gods, and ultimately the Supreme God. So recently I was at various universities. I spoke at Stanford, I spoke at Yale.

So at one such university, a person asked me, do you people believe in ghosts? Now, when people ask certain questions, their question comes from a particular worldview. And it is just like if a person is practising Ayurveda and getting some treatment and is getting cured, but somebody else is coming from allopathic perspective and sometimes allopaths consider Ayurveda to be not a very authentic form of medicine. And similarly some Ayurvedic doctors may also consider allopathy to be having too many side effects, too negative kind of medicine.

Now if we consider Ayurveda and allopathy, at that time in Ayurveda a central concept is Jataragni, the digestive fire. Now if we consider from the allopathic perspective, there is no such thing as a digestive fire. There is metabolism that happens in the body, but there is no such thing as a fire.

So if the fire would be there in the body, it would burn. There is of course heat in the body, but the heat is simply by the normal process of reproduction. Normal process according to the scientific model of the body.

It is simply because of the process of production and breaking down that happens in the body. So in philosophy of science, it is understood that when we talk about even facts, facts are theory laden. That means that facts don't exist independent of the theory.

We look from a particular world view and then we see particular things. And say for example, in the day to day language we say, I am standing under the sky. Now if you look from a very critical perspective, actually there is no such thing as a sky.

All that is there are clouds, but the idea that there is a bowl which is covering overhead, that's not true. It's just a vastness of space which goes on and on and on. But we often use certain usages and they work for daily purposes.

So in the normal way of living, we look at normally visible causes and visible effects. So if this pen is on the chair and it falls down. Now if it suddenly falls down, why did it fall down? Maybe it was kept at the edge and there was slight wind.

We normally look for effect, whenever we see an effect, we look for a cause. And whenever there is a cause, we understand there will be an effect. So the modern scientific world view holds that material nature is causally complete.

Causally complete means that everything that happens in material nature can be explained in terms of material nature. So when Newton saw the fruit falling, I saw the tree recently a couple of years ago when I had gone to Cambridge to do a talk on science and spirituality. That tree is considered to be like the pilgrimage place for scientists.

They go and get inspiration over there. Oh, Newton came up with such a brilliant insight at this place. So now Newton when he saw the fruit falling, he himself believed in God.

But when he was asking the question what made the fruit fall, at that time he was not looking for the answer God made the fruit fall. Yes, God is involved no doubt and he accepted God's existence. But at that time he was looking for a material mechanism by which it would fall.

So basically science operates on, there might be some non-material causes also, but let us focus on the material causes. So let's experience material things in terms of material causes. That is the approach which science uses.

And science uses the word not so much material as natural. It's called naturalism. Let's explain natural phenomena in terms of natural causes.

And within such a world view something like ghosts, I mean you believe in ghosts? What kind of unscientific person are you? So unless when we try to explain concepts which are actually from another world view or which make sense in another world view, we can't make it without explaining that world view a little bit or without pointing out the purpose of each world view. If for example, if I was told, okay, I had a nice meal yesterday, I ate some, suppose we eat some gulab jamun or something delicious we eat. Then somebody asks, can you give a mathematical equation to explain the sweetness of gulab jamun? Well, the sweetness of gulab jamun, the taste of gulab jamun is real.

It's something which we experience, we enjoy, but that cannot be expressed in the language of mathematics. The language of mathematics can describe quantifiable things. So in mathematics we may be able to describe, okay, this much was the quantity of sugar that was put in it, or this much was the quantity of sweet put in it.

But there is quantitative reality and there is qualitative reality. Science right from its beginning has focused on quantitative reality. So basically when science started observing nature from the 16th, 17th century and analysing it, at that time science divided the world into two kinds of properties, the primary properties and secondary properties.

So the primary properties they say refer to those which can be quantifiable, length, breadth, mass, height, and these are what are measurable and they can be put in the language of mathematics. And by using this language of mathematics, science has been able to predict many phenomena. Now if we consider our day-to-day experience, suppose we go home and say, I met a very interesting person today.

Yeah, tell me something about that person. He was 5 feet tall. Okay, tell me something more.

He weighed 120 pounds. Oh, okay, tell me something more. When we want to know about people, yes, their weight, their height, if it is something very unusual, somebody is very short, very tall, very thin, very obese, you might talk about that.

But when you talk about, when we experience the world, it is not in terms of length, breadth, height, width, etc. We experience it in terms of colour. Basically, we experience it in terms of sensations.

Colour. It is a beautiful musical performance today. How much is the decibel level? Well, the decibel level will not tell you what is the experience actually.

So, the decibel level is a factor in the music, but that doesn't convey the experience of the music. So, we experience the world in terms of qualitative phenomena, not quantitative. Sweetness is a quality.

Now, how can you measure sweetness? You can measure the quantity of sugar, but that is not exactly correlated with the sweetness. Sweetness is an aesthetic experience. So, the world that is revealed by science is, it gives us a lot of parameters, a lot of ability to quantify and accordingly adjust things.

So, a pilot, one of my friends is a pilot, he can say that I can tell at what speed my plane is moving, but can I tell what is the thrill I experience when I am driving a plane? Can you quantify that thrill? How do you quantify that? It is an experience. It is a real experience, but it is not a quantifiable experience. So, the world of science focusses on quantifiable phenomena and it does a very good job in terms of predicting and helping us gain some control over phenomena that are quantifiable.

But within even our lived experience, there is a whole world of non-quantifiable experience, which is what primarily attracts us. Unless we are say house constructors, when we go into a house, the first thing we don't think is, oh, this is how many square feet? Approximately we may think, this may be this many square feet. But how does it look? We just have a broad understanding.

This is large, this is small. I think, who is it? Let me silence it. So, normally we experience the world in terms of, the experience is qualitative.

So, this is a different world. And who is it that is the conscious experiencer? The experiencer, so the experience and the experiencer, neither of them are quantifiable. The experience, I can say, oh, it is a great experience.

But can you put it on a scale? An experience is, if I say, I go to a doctor, I say, I got pain. Can a doctor put a probe on my shoulder and if I got a shoulder pain, he says, let me put a metre and find out how much the pain is. No, a probe might tell, if there is a fracture, how much misalignment is there? If there is, if there is scoliosis is there, how much the back is bent? Or whatever.

It can quantify certain things, but it can't tell what you are experiencing. Say somebody's tooth is removed, tooth is to be removed, tooth is infected. Doctor may give some painkiller.

But often doctors tell, depending on how much pain you feel, you take the painkiller. Because they can say how much the infection is there and how much, that we will have to remove the tooth or we will not have to remove the tooth. But they can't exactly quantify how much pain is there and accordingly, you take this much painkiller.

If you have more pain, you take more painkiller. Pain itself, one primary purpose of medicine is to remove pain, but pain can't be quantified. So here, the point I am driving towards is that there is, there is the experienced world, there is the experience and there is the experiencer.

There are three distinct things. There is the world out here, which we experience. Then there is the experience of the world itself and there are we the experiencer.

Now science does observe the world around us, but it focusses on only one particular aspect of the world. But there is much more to the world beyond what science quantifies. So if we try to, with a scientific world view, can you establish the existence of ghosts? Can you establish the existence of soul? Can you establish the existence of God? Yes, we can do that to some extent, but it is indirect.

From the scientific perspective, or to speak of the existence of ghosts, you cannot even prove your existence or my existence. What do you mean by I can't prove my or obviously I exist, you exist. But if you see the self, we are all conscious beings who are observing each other, now interacting with each other.

But from the scientific perspective, where is the self located? In the brain, but where in the brain? In the heart, where in the heart? Science cannot locate it. Now obviously you exist, I exist, but the world of science focusses on quantifiable phenomena and the self is not quantifiable. So now science can't prove that the self exists, but science could not prove anything if the self did not exist.

The self is the basis of all knowledge. The self, without the self, there will be no observation, there will be no science. So we need to have the foundation straight.

What is the most fundamental reality that we experience? This mic, is this real? Yes, I can say this is real. But it could be that right now all of us are in a dream and in the dream I am seeing you, you are seeing me and in the dream I am touching this mic. Sometimes some dreams are very vivid.

So now actually what is our first reality? The first reality that we experience is not the physical world. The first reality that is the basis of all our experience is our own consciousness. If there is no consciousness, there will be nothing that will be experienced.

So that means there is something that is experienced, there is the experience itself and there is the experiencer. The experienced object, the experience and the experiencer. Now among them, the first reality has to be the experiencer.

Without the experiencer, nothing can be experienced. So the experienced object may or may not be real. It may be a dream, it may be a movie that we are seeing, we don't know.

But what we know is that the experiencer is real. The experiencer is observable. So actually scientists say be empirical, start with facts.

But the most empirical reality in terms of the first experienced reality is the reality of consciousness. And from that reality move outwards to other realities. So now I talk about the experienced object, the experience and the experiencer.

These three things are there. So these three, the Bhagavad Gita explains, correspond to three levels of reality. The experienced objects exist at the physical level of reality.

Then the experience for us most of the times, it happens at the mental level, at the subtle or the mind level of reality. And the experiencer is spiritual. The experiencer is the soul.

So science focusses only on the experienced objects and not only on the complete experienced object, the quantifiable aspect of the experienced objects. So that's why subtler aspects of reality are not perceivable. So I would like all of us to do a simple thought experiment.

So wherever you are sitting, you can sit comfortably and then with me you can close your eyes. And as you close your eyes, you can take three deep breaths with me. One.

Now with your eyes closed, look at what you see in front of you. Because your eyes are closed, you can't see anything in front of you physically. And yet there appears to be something like an inner screen on which different things may be seen.

You may see this room, your home, your car, your loved ones, your phone, your purse, your food. Various images may come and go on that inner screen. Or you might just see a dull haze of different colours on that screen.

Now whatever specifically you see on that inner screen, try to take a step back now and try to catch sight of who is it that is looking at that inner screen. You can see the inner screen. Instead of focussing on that inner screen, try to look at the inner seer.

Try once again. Take a step back and try to catch sight of the inner seer. No matter how many times we step back, the inner seer steps back with us.

What we are looking for is what we are looking with. You are that inner seer. So the inner seer is the soul, the consciousness.

The inner screen is the mind. And the outer scene is the physical world. Now you can take one deep breath and you can open.

So the inner seer is at the spiritual level of reality. And when people talk about say phenomena like reincarnation or ghosts or gods, this is not at the physical level. This is because science focusses on the physical level and not just the physical level, the measurable physical level.

So we can't directly perceive any of this at the physical level. What we can perceive is the effect of it on the physical level. So now some of you have been given this book Reincarnation.

You can open page 235. Is it 235 or 233? 235. And the next page also has an image.

237, yeah. Now 235 first talks about, you can see that image where there is the body and then inside that there is a subtle body. So basically, maybe before that, let me open the book here.

So basically I talk about these three levels of being, the soul, body and the soul, mind and body. Now normally speaking, right now the soul is say here, the mind is around it and the body is around it. But when the soul leaves the body at the time of death, at that time the soul and the mind go out of here.

And then they go into another physical body. Now because science focusses on physical reality, what happens to the soul when it goes from, it can't perceive the soul, it can't even perceive the mind. But the mind is something which we very vividly experience.

And it is the basis of all our, it is the channel through which we experience everything. So now sometimes when the soul is leaving one body and going to another body, at that time the soul may not get another body. So when the soul does not get another body, at that time, see in the diagram, the soul along with the subtle body.

Subtle body, I am generically using the word mind over here to describe that. So that is the ghost. The ghost basically is a disembodied soul.

A soul without a physical body. And they exist at the subtle level, not at the spiritual level, at the subtle or the level of the mind. Now we can't perceive ghosts directly.

But sometimes they can exert influences at the physical level. So for example, suddenly a door may open. You may have seen in some movies about ghosts.

Suddenly a door opens and you don't see anyone over there. How does the door open? So although they are non-physical, they can sometimes have physical effects. So that's how the physical effect may be in terms of door opening or door shutting.

Or another way they can have, basically they interact with the physical level at three levels. There is communication, apparition and possession. So that means, right now if you consider, certain thoughts come in the mind.

And how do the thoughts manifest at the physical level? Say right now I decide to speak something. Now I as a person think about it. And then the words come out at the physical level through the throat.

Now I don't know the mechanism. I just desire to speak something and then the thoughts come out. The exact mechanism by which the throat produces those sounds is something unknown to me.

But what I do know is that actually when I desire to speak, accordingly the physical reality is manipulated. Our physical reality is changed in such a way that whatever I want is expressed. Sometimes it may happen that, say some people stammer.

They want to speak something but the throat doesn't express those words. They may stammer because of some biological problem or sometimes they may be so disturbed, so fearful that they may stammer. Sometimes it happens that some people, they had a habit of stammering.

By practise they overcome the habit of stammering. But then afterwards, if they are suddenly very angry or very fearful or very overwhelmed by emotion, again they are not able to speak coherently. They start stammering.

So basically the desire to speak comes from the spiritual level to the subtle level and then gets translated to the physical level. So how is this done? We don't know. We don't do it.

We just want to speak and the speech comes out. There is a whole subtle mechanism and that mechanism is arranged by the super soul. The super soul is the controller of matter, mind and spirit, of physical, mental and spiritual, all levels.

And he arranges for the interconnection between all of these. The super soul is there even with the ghosts. The super soul always accompanies the soul.

Super soul is the guide. So now just as based on our karma, some of us, we may have eloquent speaking capacity and some of us may struggle to speak even a few coherent words. Most of us will be somewhere in between.

Similarly, just as by past karma, different people have different amounts of capacity to control the physical body. Similarly, ghosts also, they, by the arrangement of the super soul, they can sometimes affect the physical level. How do they do that? That is through the mediation of the super soul.

And this can happen at three levels. Communication means, you may have heard of planchettes, where sometimes there are some mediums. So you want to talk with some deceased relative and then you go to these people who are considered to be mediums and then they write on a board.

When they write on the board, it is said that the communication is coming from the deceased person. And you can learn. Now, I am not saying that all planchettes, whatever they tell is bona fide.

All mediums are bona fide. This is one way in which they may communicate. So here, we are talking right now about the principle.

The specifics, whether somebody is having, somebody is experiencing, somebody is having a ghost or not. One time a devotee, that's up to, that's to be seen from time to place to place. One time a devotee wrote to Prabhupada.

He was getting a lot of lusty desires. So he wrote, Prabhupada, I think I am haunted by a lusty ghost. Prabhupada said, there is no ghost, just Chaitanya Krishna.

So, now, Prabhupada accepted in principle the existence of ghosts. But he did not appreciate this idea of whatever emotions I am feeling, that is because of some ghost. To ascribing it like that.

He said, take responsibility. So, that's why, we are looking at the principle. Specifics, we don't, we will have to look at that case to case.

The principle is, first level they might communicate. Second is what is called as apparition. Apparition means, sometimes if the soul is very attached to the previous body, the soul might temporarily be able to manifest a form which looks like its previous form.

That's why some people may go to a place and they may say this is their grandfather or a deceased relative. And what is this? It's called apparition. If they try to go and touch, they can't touch.

But actually, that is a manifestation that is temporarily done. There is no physical body like that. But because the soul wants to connect with somebody, the soul in the ghost situation, they will manifest a body like that.

So, Duttakarma Prabhu is one of Sri Prabhupada's senior scientist disciples, Dr. Michael Cremo. And he has written a book called Human Devolution. Many books, but his book Human Devolution talks about these paranormal phenomena.

And he gives many cases, studies done by different people all over the world. Different respected scientists also, respected researchers, who have in different parts of the world documented phenomena like this. Like some people see some apparition.

And sometimes this communication comes and it's accurate. And beyond that, there is possession. Now, if you look at the next page, in possession, what happens is that the soul, say I am a person now, I am in this body.

The soul is there, the mind is there and the body is there. Now, another soul who is disembodied, who is a ghost, that ghost enters into this body. And then during that period, there are two souls in that body.

But the ghost dominates the body. There are well documented cases, again by Ian Stevenson who is a prominent researcher. He documents a case of a woman in Nagpur, in a small village near Nagpur.

One day she woke up and suddenly started speaking in fluent Bengali. And there was no one in her vicinity who spoke Bengali. And she had never been to Bengal.

And her relatives couldn't even understand what she was speaking. So it was just naturally, not only was she thinking she was a woman, but she started speaking in a more of a masculine voice. Couldn't understand what is happening.

So there is this sudden drastic changes of personality. And this is talked about in say, in fictions also like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The same person may have two kinds of different personalities.

It's talked about in fiction. So that's fiction. But in reality also sometimes people experience this.

So basically another soul has entered into that body. And that soul has taken over this body temporarily. And then the soul stays in that body.

And the soul wants to fulfil whatever desires are in that body. And once whatever it wants to is done, then it will leave. So sometimes a group of devotees is going for a yatra.

At that time suddenly there was a young girl. And she started speaking in a masculine voice. And they talked with her.

And then the devotees felt that maybe the ghost has haunted her. They started chanting Hare Krishna intensely. They told her to chant Hare Krishna.

They started doing Kirtan. They started doing Narasimha Aarti. So she is a bad ghost.

She spoke in a male voice. You are going to Mayapur. I also want to go to Mayapur.

Don't drive me away. After I reach Mayapur, I'll myself leave. So this was a devotee ghost.

And that's what exactly happened. And she got to Mayapur. So she came back to Narpur.

And then she asked, where am I? She had no memory of the whole journey. So what happens when the soul becomes dormant? There is a dominant soul and there is a dormant soul. When the dominant soul comes up into the body, then the soul who is there becomes dormant.

And I just don't know what is happening. But then, oh, come back. Oh, where am I? What did I do? It's as if they come back to awareness.

So now this is basically the subtle level of reality affecting the physical level. So here our point is not to establish the existence of ghosts. We are not talking to sceptics.

Our goal is not to establish that ghosts exist. Our goal is just to explain the subtler levels of reality. There is much more in the world beyond what science perceives and what we can quantify.

It's interesting that even science has actually moved more and more from the physical, from the visible level to the invisible level. Even Newton proposed the law of gravity. What was that? To explain a visible phenomena, he proposed an invisible principle.

Gravity itself is not visible. So in general, to explain visible things, even science is required to propose something invisible. So now some scientists say there is dark matter and dark energy.

And they say more than 95-98% of the universe is actually made of dark matter. And it's intrinsically unperceivable. There are many parallel universes beyond this universe which you can never perceive.

So even science, science also, in order to explain the visible world, they are proposing an invisible world which is far, far bigger than the visible world. So the visible world itself, it's what we perceive. But to explain how it is functioning and what is happening within this visible world, there is much more that is required.

So the Vedic understanding is, this is a different worldview. And in this worldview, there is the visible world, which is physical reality, then there is mental reality and there is spiritual reality. So for us, we don't immediately experience the spiritual reality.

Although, if we introspect, as I said, the first reality we experience is consciousness. But beyond that, what exactly is happening? We can't know the details of the subtle world. But we can see that in today's world, people are being immensely affected at the visible level by something invisible.

And what is it? That invisible is the mind. Mental health problems are one of the biggest problems in today's world. Biggest health problems.

Before 1960s, there was no such thing as antidepressant or tranquillizer for treating anxiety. And today, that is the medicine which is sold, the maximum over-the-counter sold medicines. Like the budgets of some of the companies which sell mental health medicines.

And not serious, not like mental health problems when people are going insane. But depression or anxiety, the budgets of some of the pharma giants, they are more than the budgets of several European countries. So it's a big, big business.

Now why is it a big business? Because it's a big distress which they are trying to address. So even if somebody says that, oh, I believe only, seeing is believing. Sometimes a person is just living a normal life and one day, friends come to know that, oh, this person has committed suicide.

How did they commit suicide? Actually, there is the mind internally which is acting. And the mind can hurt us, the mind can even kill us. One of my friends is a mental health counsellor.

So he, one of his jobs was to be on the suicide helpline. When people are thinking of committing suicide, so just before that they may call someone. And they hear some encouraging words, some inspiring words, they may decide not to commit suicide.

So there is a helpline which is manned 24 hours a day in many parts of America. So anyway, so he got a call from one girl and this girl had actually committed suicide. I mean she had taken the pills and then she said, no, no, I don't want to die.

Then she called someone. So fortunately, they rushed the ambulance and they were able to save her. Now what had happened to her? Actually, she had been in a relationship with a boy and she had called this boy.

And his boy didn't pick up the phone. And just because of that, she committed suicide. Tried to commit suicide.

So many times you don't pick up people's phones. Why would somebody commit suicide because of that? What was happening was, the event of somebody not picking up the phone, that is trivial. And the event of committing suicide is horrendous.

Now if, earlier I said that science considers that there is causal completeness. And everything at the physical level can be explained in physical terms. But it's like, if I tap this and this just flies in the opposite direction and hits someone on the head.

Such a tiny force. How could it hit so much? How could it go so far and hit someone so hard? So this is like somebody not answering a phone call. The trivial event has a colossal consequence.

Somebody trying to commit suicide because of that. So this is not explainable at a physical level. What has happened is, something has happened in the mind.

So in the mind, oh, he didn't pick up my phone. That means he doesn't love me. Maybe he is with someone else.

Oh, maybe he has left me. Maybe no one will love me. In future I form a relationship, they will also leave me.

I will be all alone. All my friends will be in relationships. And I will be alone and they will have pity on me.

What is the use of living such a pitiable life? Better let me end my life. So how the mind can interpret an event, that is quite unpredictable. Because each person has a mind of their own.

And that's why the mind has, the mind may be triggered by physical events. And the mind's thoughts will have a physical consequence. But in between, what event will lead to what consequence? We don't know.

Sometimes we just tell someone, can you just pick that up? Small thing we tell them to do, just explode. Why are you like this, you are like that? You are always fault finding, you are this, you are that. What did I do? What did I do? So what has happened is, they had something going on in their own mind.

And that disturbance, that distress, that anger, they are just taking on us. Normally among the various anarthas, like lust, anger, greed, anger is somewhat different. Normally if say greed is there, I desire a particular object, usually the trigger for that emotion and the target of that emotion are the same.

If somebody becomes greedy, I want this new phone, I want this new house, I want this new car. Then the trigger and the target are the same. Similarly lust, if somebody gets sexually attracted to someone, the trigger is there and the target is there.

I want to have a relationship with that person. But with respect to anger, sometimes the trigger is one thing and the target becomes something else. This person made me angry, this person did this, this person did this, this person did this.

And then all the accumulated frustration from the last 10 people on the 11th person we download it. So from the 11th person's perspective, I just spoke one word. What happened? So the mind is something which we all really experience.

Firstly in terms of the emotions that we get and in terms of the emotional reactions that we get from others to our actions. So in terms of the experience reality, the mind is real. But again, how can you quantify anger? How can we quantify depression? We may have some parameters.

How can we quantify anxiety? Just because it is not quantifiable doesn't mean it is not real. So basically the soul is what reincarnates. So reincarnation means to go into another body.

But ghosts are souls who do not reincarnate. They stay disincarnate. Disincarnate means without any body.

Karna means flesh. Carnivorous animals are those who eat flesh. So reincarnation means to come again in flesh.

To be disincarnate means to not have a body of flesh. They stay at a certain level. So now we may or may not believe in ghosts.

And we don't really, if people don't want to believe in ghosts, we have no mission that to persuade people that ghosts exist. That is not the point. Our mission is that there is a reality beyond the physical.

And that affects us. And to the extent we can understand that reality and adjust it properly, the effect on the physical level will be better. So the mind is for real and the mind is going to affect us.

Now how it will affect us, that is for us to decide. What do you mean for us to decide? Basically the mind is filled with impressions. And different impressions affect people in different ways.

So earlier I talked about these ghosts. When this person is suddenly talking in one way and they start talking in a different language, they start behaving in a different way. Now we may not have an experience of such weird behaviour from people.

But we can see that we ourselves go through sometimes rapid mood swings. In the Greek tradition they say anger is temporary insanity. When people become angry, they just go mad.

So there is one devotee who used to be very short-tempered. Normally he is a very nice person. But sometimes he just explodes.

So angry and in anger he would speak such terrible things. So now and after that he just apologises, I am sorry I didn't mean that. And he is very sweet.

But what is spoken is spoken. Bhagavatam says that words that leave our mouth are like arrows and they pierce the heart of others. Bhagavatam also says that the heart is like a pot.

Once it is broken, it is very difficult to repair it. So what happened was this devotee used to sometimes just get angry. So another devotee when he was angry and shouting, the devotee quietly turned on the phone recorder.

And everything that was spoken he recorded that. And then he played that to the devotee itself. I spoke this? How could I have spoken this? So he was himself horrified.

So sometimes we can see our anger can make us unrecognisable to ourselves. Anger can make us unrecognisable to ourselves. Was it me? How could I have said that? Similarly, lust can also make sometimes good people do terrible things.

So sometimes greed or any of these anarthas, they can make people do terrible things. So we do see this effect of the mental on the physical. So the point of talking about ghosts, we may not have experience of ghosts, but just as ghosts could cause a dramatic transformation in people's behaviour, we see that similarly a transformation in our behaviour or other behaviour also happens.

And that's because of something that is going on in the mind. Something at a physical level is normal, everything. But at the mental level, what is going on in whose mind, we don't know.

So just like a computer may look very good, new. But inside the computer, there is a virus. It looks a brand new computer, but you turn it on.

Nothing is, it's not turning on. Or there's no data, all the data has been deleted. So like that inside us, there are these anarthas.

And these are like viruses in the software of the mind. And they are all working. So just as if somebody is haunted by a ghost, at that time, there are exorcists.

Exorcist means they go to some people and they chant some mantras and they do different things by which they try to exorcise. They try to drive out the ghost from the persons. So now there are people who don't believe in reincarnation.

So for example, in my book, The Demystifying Reincarnation, there is a case of inter-religious reincarnation. So a Hindu becomes a Muslim or a Muslim becomes a Hindu. Now, if this happens in India, then because in India there is often quite a bit of religious tension.

So say the Muslims don't want to, there was a case of Naresh Kumar Raidas, who was earlier Mushir Ali Khan, and he became Naresh Kumar Raidas. And there's a whole case in detail described. But the point is this Antonia Mills was a researcher from an American university.

She wanted to do research. And when she was doing the research, she found that when, in say, in Muslim families, if a child claims, you know, I live there, my mother lives there, my father lives there. They think that this child is haunted by a ghost.

And often the same rituals that are done to try to exorcise a person, they try to do that. So sometimes they take a small child, 4-5 year old child, and put that child on a potter's wheel. And just get the potter's wheel to move.

They think that, okay, the air in the head must be disturbed. So just make the body round and round and round and the ghost will be forced to live. So, even the recollection of the past lives, sometimes they think that this is just like a ghost.

But the child is doing something unusual, which most children don't do. And it's not a ghost, it's just a memory from a past life. But it can be equated with a ghost.

In the Chaitanya Charita Amrit, it is said that bhukti and mukti, the desire for worldly enjoyment, this is like a ghost or a pishaji, a witch that haunts us. So just as if somebody is haunted, at that time, at that time, the person is taken to an exorcist and mantras are chanted. And then they try to drive out the ghost.

So similarly, for all of us, we may or may not believe in ghosts. But the point is, we can understand that the mind is prone to give out ideas or to give out thoughts to trigger emotions that can drastically alter our life course. And we need to guard ourselves from it.

So at one level, when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra, when we practise bhakti yoga, this is, we want to ward off the ghostly emotions, desires, impressions that are there in the mind. Just as ghosts, if they possess us, they will make us behave in crazy ways. Similarly, the mind can give us propositions.

Come on, eat this, watch this, do this, go there. And if you just give in to that, we'll get carried away. And the mind has, I'll conclude with two examples.

The mind has, we could say, various trains within it. Now train of thoughts. If we go into a train station, and there are many trains over there.

And we need to get into the right train so that we'll get to the destination. And once we enter the train and the train starts moving, it's very difficult to come out. Many of these trains, the doors are also closed.

In India actually the doors are open because there are so many people there. They have to keep the doors open. But in the western world, most of the doors are closed.

So as the train has started off, it's very difficult to come out of the train. So like that, inside we can say our inner world is like a train station. And in that there are many thought trains over there.

And as soon as we focus on any thought. So for this girl who just attempted suicide, what happened? She was just thinking, oh, he did not pick up my phone call. Why did he not pick up the phone call? That thought was like her entering the thought train.

And sometimes we just get into the train and the train shoots off. It just goes off so fast. And within moments we are far away from where we were earlier.

So like that the thought train will shoot off. And it can drastically change our mood. It can drastically change our actions.

It can hurt us. It can even cause us to kill ourselves. So basically when we understand that inside us also there are forces which are very powerful, which can work for us, which can work against us.

And therefore we need the help of a force that is far bigger than us. And that is the power of Krishna. So when we chant the holy name, we the soul are here.

The mind with its impressions is here. Although the soul by nature is spiritual. And in that sense the soul is more powerful than the mind.

But because the soul identifies so much with the mind, that the soul gets carried away by the mind. So now we need the help of someone bigger, stronger than the mind. And that is Krishna.

So when we connect with Krishna through the process of Bhakti Yoga, by that essentially two things happen. Just the process of connection with Krishna gives us stability. Gives us security.

And then whatever is happening at the level of the mind, it won't agitate us so much. So when the mind's thought train starts off, if we just enter into the thought train, we'll get carried away. But say if a child is restless, child runs here, runs there, just climbs into a train and the child just goes off.

But if the child is with the mother and child holds on to the hand of the mother. Child holds on to the hand of the mother, and the mother will ensure the child won't go into some other train. Even if the child gets attracted and starts running, the mother will be there, the mother will pull the child back.

So our practise of Sadhana Bhakti is like holding on to Krishna's hand. So many attractive thought trains like, what is in this train, what is in this train, I want to see this train. So many things will come up.

But if we hold on to Krishna, then even if we get captivated by certain things, we won't rush off into it. Our connection with Krishna will hold us back. Now of course Krishna wants to hold us and Krishna wants to protect us.

Always. But at the same time, Krishna doesn't go against our will. If we strongly desire, I want to do this, then Krishna will let us do it.

But if we strongly show Krishna, Krishna I don't want to do this, so then Krishna will protect us. Now sometimes it may just happen that some thoughts just come up so strongly that we get carried away by it. So basically when we talk about a habit, what does habit mean? See there is a stimulus that comes up within us.

The stimulus and the reaction comes up. So the stronger habit, we say the tighter is the bond between stimulus and reaction. So for a person who is alcoholic, as soon as they see alcohol, the stimulus comes in, immediately the hand goes and they drink it.

So I think Oscar Wilde is a British thinker, he said that giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I have done it over a hundred times. So I decide to give it up, but next time the stimulus comes, immediately I smoke.

So basically the stronger a habit, the stimulus produces almost like an involuntary reaction. Now what we need to do is that we need to create a distance between the stimulus and the reaction. The more distance we can create, so somebody speaks something, immediately we explode.

Somebody speaks something which hurts us, and immediately we go into depression. One thing goes wrong and immediately we go into worry. So these are all, what is happening, some stimulus comes up and that makes us enter into that train.

And as soon as we enter into train, our thoughts go off in a particular direction. So at that time what do we do? One thing is if we stay steadily connected with Krishna, but the other is with you, use our intelligence to identify what is happening. Rather than saying, I am feeling angry, we just preface it with, the mind is saying, I am feeling angry.

I am feeling very disheartened. The mind is saying, I am feeling very disheartened. I am scared.

The mind is saying, I am scared. So if we just preface whatever thoughts are coming, they are not our thoughts, they are the mind's promptings. Now the mind may be scared because there is something scary actually, that also needs to be addressed.

It is not that just because the mind is saying means we neglect it. But by prefacing, the mind is saying, what will happen is we will create a distance. And then we will be able to evaluate it.

So ultimately for us, when we connect with Krishna, that gives us, Krishna gives the intelligence to understand how to come to Him. To understand how our mind is misleading us. And how we can be led by Him, instead of being misled by our mind.

So if sometimes the mind just overwhelms us, rather than becoming discouraged, and beating us, why did I do that? Okay, look back at Krishna. Look back and see what happened. At this point the mind tricked me and that's how I got carried away.

But Krishna is there with me. Let me take shelter of Krishna. And if I take shelter of Krishna, Krishna will help me to overcome it.

So rather than, even if we do something wrong, instead of becoming discouraged by that, we say, okay, that was the mind which made me do it. But now, okay, at this point, this is what happened and I identified with it. I could identify, I could be protected.

So sometimes the stimulus and reaction is so tightly bound, it will be difficult for us to not have that reaction at that time. But what we can do is, like some people, they are vulnerable to be possessed by ghosts. And this happens.

Sometimes they just get haunted. But then, if they can't control what happens at that time, but they can control what is happening in the remaining time. I knew one devotee who had this problem.

So he was told, chant the Narasimha prayers. Read the 7th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. Fear Narasimha Kavach.

Narasimha Dev is our protector. So then, now, there are certain phases in which we may not be able to do anything. But apart from that, what do we do in the remaining time? Similarly for us, sometimes the mind may just prompt us in such a forceful way that we may not be able to do anything.

But what do we do in the remaining time? If in the remaining time we are taking shelter of Krishna, we are sharpening our intelligence by understanding Krishna's message and we are strengthening ourselves spiritually by connecting with Krishna, then gradually when those phases of insanity start coming, we will be better equipped to resist them. And over a period of time, they will become weaker and eventually they will disappear. So for us, the subtle reality is important, but the spiritual reality is the most important.

If we connect with the spiritual reality, then the subtle reality will no longer affect us negatively. Whatever specifically may be there, whether it is paranormal beings or whether it is our own mind filled with many impressions, but by taking shelter of Krishna, we can go beyond the influence of the subtle by taking shelter of the transcendental. So I will summarise.

I spoke today on the topic of reincarnation, ghosts and God. So I started by talking about, when people ask do you believe in ghosts, they may want to just make fun, how can you believe in something so preposterous. But before we can talk about specific concepts, we have to understand the underlying worldview.

Just like the concept of digestive fire makes great sense within an Ayurvedic worldview. Ayurvedic model of the body. But it may not make sense within an Allopathic model of the body.

So when people today live in the world where they are educated by science, science has a particular way of looking at the world. That is, it looks for the visible world and even that within the visible, the measurable aspect of visible reality. That they consider the primary qualities.

And secondary qualities are those which are non-tangible, like colour, fragrance, taste. So when we experience the world, we experience it primarily in terms of colours, tastes, emotions. But emotions, although they are real, they cannot be quantified.

So just by this, medical science is meant to heal pain, but pain can't be quantified. So by this, we can understand that the world that science describes is not exactly the same as the world we experience. There is some correlation, but there is a significant difference also between the two.

So now the world we experience is a world where just physical causes don't produce physical effects. A small physical cause can produce a huge physical effect. One phone call not being lifted can make somebody suicidal.

One suggestion to do something better can cause an explosion. Why? Because there is no proportionality over there. Because in between the physical cause and the physical reaction, there is the whole mental process that is going on.

So what is at the mental and the spiritual level, we cannot quantify that. But we can experience or we can quantify the effects of that on the physical level. We can see those effects.

So we talked about how there is the outer scene is a physical reality, the inner screen that is the mind and the inner sphere is the soul. So the inner screen and the… So the physical reality is affected by what happens in the subtle level. Consciousness is the most empirical of all experiences.

Without consciousness, nothing we can experience. So when the ghost possess a person, we discussed that, basically the subtle body along with the soul are existing in a disembodied way and they may enter into somebody and the person's behaviour starts changing unnaturally. Specifically, who is haunted by a ghost, who is not, that is difficult to know.

Ghosts may have communication, apparition or possession. But the important thing is we ourselves, when our anarthas start coming up, anger is like temporary insanity. So the anarthas can also unnaturally distort our behaviour as if we are haunted by ghosts.

So therefore, understanding that subtle affects the physical, we work to cleanse the subtle. And that is done through the practise of bhakti. Just as a person who is haunted may be exorcised, similarly, our practise of sadhana bhakti is meant to exorcise, drive out the unwanted anarthas, unwanted impressions that are there within us.

So if a child rushes into a wrong train, it will go far long distance away. If the child holds on to the mother, then the mother won't let the child get into the wrong train. Like that, our inner world is like a train station.

There are many thought trains there. If we stay connected with Krishna, then we won't get into our unwanted thought train. And if somehow we get into our unwanted thought train, because some habits may be deep rooted, so stimulus and the reactions happen very fast, then at least in between the phases when those habits attack us, what do we do? At that time we are connecting with Krishna steadily by the practise of bhakti and we are trying to purify ourselves, strengthen our intelligence, then those phases will become lesser and lesser, influential on us.

And eventually we go beyond the negative influence of the subtle or mental level by connecting with the supreme positivity of Krishna at the spiritual level. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.

So are there any questions or comments? What is this question? Why do some departed souls do not get another body immediately? Why do they have to stay in limbo? It depends on karma. So sometimes in suicide, a soul basically is supposed to live in a body for 60 years. But that person commits suicide at the age of 35.

And for the next 25 years, they are not by karma meant to get another body. So it's like the government is going to allot us some houses to live in. Now for 3 years you live in this house, next 3 years you live in this house.

But after one and a half year, I just burn down my house. The government says, we are not going to give you another house. So you stay homeless at that time.

So like that, sometimes because of suicide, a soul may have to stay in a disembodied state. And sometimes because of some other, some strong attachment, a very strong attachment is there to a particular body or particular situation, the soul may just not want to go to the next body. That's why you hover around for some time.

So that's how some souls may have to stay in limbo because of either some self-destructive karma or some strong attachments. And what triggers the soul to get another body? It's primarily, nothing triggers the soul per se. The super soul guides the material nature's planning to give the soul a body according to its desire.

According to its desire and its karma. The soul doesn't want to leave the body exactly, the present body, whatever it is, because it's attached. But by the karma, by the desire and the karma, the soul gets a new body.

Just like when we leave a house, based on our budget and our preference, we'll purchase a new house. Yes, and mukti means no reincarnation. Yes, we get an eternal body by which we go beyond our temporary body.

So Krishna, it is said that he did not desire to keep his body in this world any longer. That's 11.31.13 says. And then Rukmini and others, they entered into the fire in which Krishna's body has been burnt.

How can fire burn Krishna's body? The Bhagavatam and the Acharyas explain this elaborately. That when Krishna descends to this world, his body is transcendental. But he does whatever is required for the furthering of his lila.

So although his body is transcendental, when Bhishma shoots arrows at Arjuna, some of the arrows hit Krishna. And blood comes from his body. Sweat is there, blood is there.

That is simply to enhance the virya rasa which Krishna is having with Bhishma. Similarly, when Krishna departs from this world, he has a particular purpose. He has demonstrated extraordinary feats which nobody can do.

Lifting Govardhan hair, overpowering so many demons when he was just a child. And he has done such things which for the open-minded, there will be strong evidence, this person must be extraordinary. Not just extraordinary person, he is a supreme person.

But for those who want to doubt, Krishna is reciprocal. That means, nityo nityanam cetna cetna, eko bhavunam lobindhati kama. Whatever is people's desire, Krishna maintains them accordingly.

So if somebody wants to stay in doubt, Krishna gives them reasons to doubt. If we are given free will, that means we also have to be given the facility to execute the free will. So if a boy approaches a girl and offers her a rose, please marry me.

And she says, no, he takes out a gun, marry me. That is not love, that is force. So similarly, Krishna, if he gives us free will, but then you can do whatever you want.

But at an intellectual level, all around us is overwhelming evidence of God's existence and God's power. Then it's like almost, there is almost intellectual force to surrender to Krishna. Isn't it? So Krishna doesn't physically force us, nor does he intellectually force us.

So he gives adequate evidence for those who want to turn towards him and surrender to him. But for those who do not want to turn to him, he also gives them some evidence. So Krishna's departure, where apparently he leaves his body and goes, that is one such leela, which is meant primarily to give doubters reason to doubt.

So now, if even the doubters are little more intelligent, then they will say, actually, if somebody is shot in the leg, a wound in the leg is usually not fatal unless it becomes infected and aggravated. That same Krishna who has fought against so many demons and he has survived, who went into the body of Aghasur, Bhagavatam gives an example, he went into the abode of Yamaraj and he got back the sons of his guru, Sandipani Muni who had been killed. So how could that person be killed simply by an arrow and that too hitting the leg, not the heart or the head? So from the objective perspective, if you see, this is simply a leela and Krishna leaves the body behind.

Krishna acts as if that arrow killed him. He had his own plan to depart from the world. And Krishna created just like we have Maya Sita, who was left behind and Ravana took that.

Similarly, Krishna left a Maya form, which looked like his form, but it was not him. So that is simply for the doubters. And yes, at that time, eventually that whole leela is orchestrated in such a way that those who want to doubt, they will doubt.

But those who want to have faith, they can look at the whole world, whole lifetime of Krishna and they can see such a wonderful person. So if we go into a 100 room mansion and 99 rooms are spick and span, but one room is untidy. Now we can say, this mansion has no caretaker.

Why? Because this room is untidy. But 99 rooms are neat and tidy. Maybe there is something else going on over there.

There is definitely a caretaker, but this room is disorderly, there must be something else going on over there. So if we look at the overall life of Krishna, there are so many extraordinary things. Based on that we can infer that he is God.

But if somebody wants to stick to some other evidence, Krishna gives them evidence also. So Krishna does not use intellectual force to force people to turn towards him. So for those who want to doubt, these kind of pastimes are what allow them to doubt.

After how much time does the soul who departs enters into another body? This is variable depending on karma. Because different, sometimes the soul may have to go to lower planets, hellish planets. Sometimes the soul may have to go to lower species.

Sometimes the soul may come to a human species again. So what happens in the transition, we know at different levels in the universe, time also flows at a different pace. So that's why there is no fixed time duration.

Garuda Purana talks about sometimes the time duration. But that is not necessary same for all people. So it will vary from person to person.

How long it takes for which soul to get into another body? And a ghost eventually gets a body. After the period of disembodied stage is over, then that karma which is to be experienced that gets over, the soul gets a new body. So I was in a TV show that showed that with an invisible power a person was able to break a glass that was 30-50 metres away.

So what is that force? Yes, so basically there is this whole phenomena called paranormal phenomena. So there are different things and there is clairvoyance. Clairvoyance means some people just give them a letter, an envelope and without opening the envelope they will tell you what is there in the letter.

There are some people who are, this is called psychokinesis. Psychokinesis means I just look at this and I get the kartal to start moving. Now there are a few people who have subtle powers like this.

So basically there is the body, there is the mind and the soul. Normally if I want to lift this kartal, I have to touch it with my hand and lift it. But some people by their past karma, just like in this life some people may just have very good memory, some people have average memory, some people have lot of strength, some people have normal strength.

So like that some people by their past karma may also have access to certain powers which other people don't have. So this is desire and it happens. So basically it is the physical body that is limited by the laws of physics.

So I can't lift it up unless I touch it. But the subtle body is subtle. It is not limited by the laws of physics.

So by subtle body they can communicate or they can cause motion to happen. Now telepathy has been quite reasonably well demonstrated. Dr. Ryan and others who did the research, they put people in all wave proof chambers and still they communicated.

This person A is telling something to person B. And how are they telling it? Just don't know. But the person B gets the message. So there are many experiments which are done which just indicate that there is some faculty to know and influence which we have beyond the physical.

So basically normally we interact with the world through our Jnana Indriyas. And we affect the world through our Karma Indriyas, the knowledge acquiring and action producing. But the mind has the subtle faculties.

The senses are not, the eyes are simply physical organs. The mind has the subtle sensory power to connect with the eye. There is a subtle eye we could say.

So now normally that subtle eye works through the physical eye. But sometimes that subtle eye can work without the physical eye. That's how for most people the subtle eye is locked with the physical eye.

That's why they can't see without the physical eye. The physical eye can't see. But some people that locking is not that much.

So they can acquire knowledge beyond what the senses can normally see. And they can similarly influence things beyond what is normally possible. So the mind, if it is not too tightly coupled with the body, some people that decoupling is there somewhat.

The mind can affect the physical world without needing the body as a physical medium to affect. So that's what this whole PSI phenomena or psychic phenomena they are called. They are reasonably well documented and even there are sceptics who have talked about it.

Carl Sagan was a sceptic. He said that this PSI is something which is well documented. We don't know how to explain it.

So there are these phenomena which point to a reality beyond the physical. So different people may have certain powers by which they do these things. So somebody is having, say my brother is having depression and he is taking pills, antidepressant medicines, but it's not helping.

He is chanting some rounds. But how is he not able to get out of insomnia? How can he lead a normal life? In general, the mental, what happens to the level of the mind, it can be influenced in three ways. So the mind is the interface between the body and the soul.

So sometimes something may be wrong in the brain. The brain structure or brain chemical composition may be disturbed and that may affect the mind. So if there is a clear documented brain structure or brain chemical imbalance, then medication is not only advisable, it is essential.

But if that is not the case, many times doctors just give medicine, you are feeling depressed, you take a medicine. There is nothing wrong in the brain specifically. But it is just given as a quick shot, as a quick fix.

That kind of dependency on medicines is not good. So we are not entirely against brain medicines. But at the same time, a tendency to give some medicine to deal with emotions, as a first resort, that's not a very healthy thing.

So one way is that if there is a chemical or structural imbalance, take a physical medicine, take medicine, that's required. Second is that the mind is influenced by thoughts. So psychiatry is where medicines are given.

Psychotherapy is where a person is helped to process the thoughts at the level of thoughts by talking, by analysing, by discussing. So if somebody is burdened by certain kind of thoughts, then how do they deal with that, that's explained. So if there is counselling, if something is burdening their mind, then giving them a proper connection with some counsellor or a trained devotee through whom that can help.

But beyond that, the process of bhakti also gives shelter of Krishna. And when that shelter of Krishna comes, it becomes easier. Basically, when depression is happening, what happens? I talk about this inner screen and the inner seer.

So the inner screen is normally meant to act as a window by which we see the outer world. But in the case of depression, the inner screen becomes like a TV. And that starts showing all the things that have gone wrong in our life.

This went wrong, this went wrong, this went wrong, this went wrong. As we start seeing this, this, this, this, then we start feeling so many things went wrong in my life and my future is going to be the same old story again. And thus we become depressed.

Conversely, when the inner screen goes into the future, this may go wrong, that may go wrong. Then the inner screen becomes like, then we get anxiety. So basically, if you just get the inner screen back to the present, that can help in dealing with the negativities of the mind.

So how do we do that? That is something which has to be worked out individual to individual. But when depression is coming, when insomnia is coming, one way we could deal with this is to use an acronym, FEAR. F-E-A-R.

F is focus. This is wrong, that is wrong. What is the exact problem right now? Focus on that.

Right now, what is the exact problem? We just keep asking the question again and again. The mind is like, hey, this is wrong, this is wrong. From the general hey's, get to a specific issue.

If a patient comes to a doctor, doctor crying, crying, I am in pain, I am in pain. The doctor has to get the patient to speak. What exactly is the problem? I am in pain, yeah, okay, but where is the pain? What exactly is the problem right now? That's F, focus.

E is engage. What can I do about it right now? Okay, now this is there. Okay, what can I do about it right now? Now if I lose my job, this will happen, this will happen.

Okay, what can I do about it right now? So basically, the mind which is going into the past and the future, by these two questions, we get it to the present. Look at the present situation and act in the present situation. A is arise.

Arise means raise your consciousness to a spiritual level. I am a soul, I am different from the body. I have survived many, many problems in the past.

I am bigger than my problems. I am a part of God. So arise.

And R is release. Release means just let go. There are some things in my control and many that are not in my control.

So what is not in my control? There is a higher plan, there is a higher power, it will take care of it. So if you do these things, much of the agitation at the level of the mind can be dealt with. So while there are many important or meaningful topics to discuss in Krishna Bhakti, why did you choose such an esoteric topic like this? What do you want to learn from this seminar? What do you want us to learn from this seminar? Basically three points.

First is that there is an increasing incidence of mental health problems. And my point was not to talk about ghosts. My point was to address the mental health problems by comparing it with a scary alternative, with a scary reference point which will make us take the mind more seriously and take the measures to deal with the mind more seriously.

Second was that I talk about ghosts just to show the explanatory potential of Krishna conscious wisdom. There are many phenomena which science may not be able to explain but Krishna consciousness can explain that. So that can develop our intellectual appreciation and conviction about the practise of Krishna Bhakti.

And lastly there are people who just have these questions. And we may meet people because the whole idea of reincarnation in the western mind especially is associated with this whole paranormal phenomena, ghosts and spirits. So reincarnation is the core part of our philosophy.

But in the western world when people talk about reincarnation it is just associated with all this. So we need to have some answers to explain that. It was to equip for that purpose.

How does a soul who is not incarnate exhaust his karma? That is by experience. Even the ghosts also, different ghosts may go through different kinds of experiences. It's like if you consider animal bodies, the dogs are not doing any karma.

But some dogs live in luxury as pets of millionaires. And some dogs live, you could say, in misery as street dogs are bitten by whoever kawasas bite. So why are these two dogs in different situations? That's their karma.

Sometimes there are ghosts also who may live in great distress. Constantly craving for this, craving for that, lamenting over this, lamenting over that. And some ghosts may not be in relatively less distress.

So whatever karma they are meant to bear in their ghostly body they will bear. And then after that they will get a new body where the remaining karma will be exhausted. What is the difference between ghosts, ESPs and prodigies? They are very different.

Ghosts as I explained are souls without physical bodies existing only in subtle bodies. Extrasensory perception refers to a person in a normal embodied state but having a capacity to pursue beyond what we normally perceive. That is because their mind is not locked to the body as it is in most cases.

And their mind has certain powers by which they can pursue certain things. And prodigies are simply people who are able to do things in an extraordinary way which we are not able to do. Say somebody is a maths prodigy.

That means they must have studied maths in their previous life and those impressions are stored in their mind and that's why they are just brilliant at it. So it's what everybody can do but they do it in an extraordinary way. That is prodigies.

ESP means what people can't do, they are able to do it. And ghost means they just don't have a physical body. So they are very different concepts.

Okay, last question then we'll stop. Others I can talk on one level if you have time. Can a ghost affect a devotee? In general, a devotee is protected by Krishna.

But protected by Krishna doesn't necessarily mean that there will be no problems in the world. The world is a problematic place and at a material level certain problems may come up. If there is a storm, will the storm affect a devotee? Yeah, we are living in a material world, it will affect a devotee also.

So similarly, if some people have some karmic situation by which certain karma is going to come in a particular way, that karma will come. Normally we say if somebody is practising bhakti, they will never lose a human body. They will always get a human form.

But Bharat Maharaj got an animal body, he got a deer body. But although he got a deer body, he did not get deer consciousness. His consciousness was like a serious spiritual human being, even in a deer body.

So sometimes for a devotee also, because of certain situations, for Bharat Maharaj we know specifically, he got attached to a deer, that's why he got a deer's body. But we don't know why somebody might get a particular body. But if somebody gets haunted by a ghost, if a devotee gets haunted, we may not know exactly why it is happening.

But for a devotee, through that experience, if they strive to be Krishna conscious as much as they can, that will actually deepen their conviction, deepen their determination to take shelter of Krishna, deepen their realisations of the reality of what the bhakti literature, bhakti wisdom is teaching. And in that way, that experience will become favourable for their spiritual growth. So for a devotee, the routine problems of material life may come, but if the devotee takes shelter of Krishna, those problems become prompts for the devotee to go deeper into Krishna, relationship with Krishna.

In that sense, being haunted by a ghost is inauspicious, but the effect of that haunting for a devotee will be auspicious, because the devotee will move closer to Krishna. Thank you very much. Shri Prabhupada ki Jai! Gaur Bhakt Vrinda ki Jai!