Gita Study Pune 2013 – The Yoga Ladder Explained

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript and may contain some errors.
sārthya marjuna syādau sārthya marjuna syādau kūrvan gītāmṛtaṁ dadau kūrvan gītāmṛtaṁ dadau lokatrayopakārāya lokatrayopakārāya Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa so so today we will start with a brief discussion of the yoga ladder and then we will move on to chapter twelve sorry chapter eleven so when we were discussing our Īśopaniṣad classes did I do this diagramic depiction of say karma yoga is action karma is action then A plus D karma yoga is action plus detachment no ok fine ok I will try to do it here itself if it works out well and good if it doesn’t then we will do it there ok so let’s start from bottom karma is simply A is action this is the action that we do which is not actually having any so karma is action that is according to scripture then so the karma refers to action in general which is karma kāṇḍa now karma yoga is action that is according to scripture but it is with detachment one level higher there is action but it is according to scripture and it is with detachment now here beyond that is jñāna yoga so here there is scripture there is detachment plus there is knowledge now after that is jñāna yoga in this also there is following of scripture there is detachment there is knowledge but along with that there is meditation so if you look at this progression we will go into further splitting up of this progression later but just let’s look at this broad outline first so there is an element added as we move forward in each level first the scripture added then there is detachment added then there is knowledge added then there is meditation added then there is devotion or affection or love added because I have used the word D for over here for detachment so I have used L for instead of devotion over here L for love now although there is one added if you remove these two stages then essentially three elements get added in bhakti yoga so what this means is that there can be a link from here to here directly from karma yoga to bhakti yoga if one can add the remaining elements of knowledge meditation and love and this phase which is actually difficult these two phases where one gives up action those phases those two stages of dhyana yoga and jnana yoga they can be avoided so in a sense in the progression of the yogic ladder there is one stage where one gives up action or rather two stages where one gives up action and then at a higher stage one has to resume action so both giving up action is difficult and then starting action also is difficult so so where does Krishna say that giving up action is difficult 3.5 3.5 3.5 and returning to action is also difficult this is 12.5 so it is not exactly action but there is attachment to impersonal and impersonal associated with action so so the inaction stages make progress troublesome that’s why it is if one can avoid these two inaction stages then things become easier so how will one do that if one can know about the goal the goal of attaining the supreme lord and focus on that goal wherever one might be right now one can move forward so so in a sense we can understand giving up action is difficult say if some of us are very active and then we get a we get a fracture or some sort of disease because of which we can’t move it is very difficult that is one of the biggest frustrations of sickness because we can’t do anything but if a person has been bedridden for a long time then often if the person doesn’t do activity then the muscles get atrophied and when the muscles are atrophied eventually when a person wants to act the person cannot act so we talk about in physics there is this concept of inertia inertia means when something is moving it is difficult to stop it and something is stopped it is difficult to move it so this inertia obstructs us twice when we are when we go from action to inaction and action to inaction so inertia objects and with respect to health both the two examples Prabhupada gives the example of health himself he says that actually if a person is sick it is not very easy for the person to start activity again and that person’s activity so the inertia works both ways so right now we have the tendency to act and to stop it is difficult many of us we also see that if we have a lot of services to do a lot of plans in our services even our sadhana appears like inertia sadhana appears like inactivity we just want to get the sadhana over with so that we can do other activities so although our sadhana is not passive our sadhana itself is active also we chant, we are moving our lips we dance and we study we are processing with our head but still that also doesn’t give adequate vent for our passion many times we want to run around and get things done so if you have to completely stop activity it is going to be much much more difficult that’s why it is much easier if instead of stopping activity one can channelise activity channelise activity towards the devotional goal with a devotional purpose in mind so the whole process of bhakti yoga when we say it is an elevator all of you know the standard example of the elevator and the staircase so what is it that makes bhakti yoga the elevator we say that the other processes are like a staircase that’s because you have to go one by one by one step that is there now what makes bhakti yoga the elevator is several things first is that actually it is Krishna’s mercy which lifts the person up that’s why the speed of lifting up is much faster but along with that the elevator is something which does not require much endeavour for the person to be inside it has to be there it will move up whereas the person has to constantly keep climbing so the primary difference is with respect to the ease of lifting so the elevator example conveys the primary thing that it’s much easier and swifter to go by the elevator than by the staircase but the elevator and staircase examples are limited because the actually speaking the elevator goes to the highest floor and it’s like a staircase if somebody practises the path of ashtanga yoga or jnana yoga you go by the staircase but then the staircase if you want to go to the top floor there is no staircase only you have to take the lift finally so that means if I go from the ground floor I come to the third floor the building has five floors and the staircase goes to the third floor and then after that the staircase ends so if you want to go from the third floor to the fifth floor you have to take the lift only you cannot take the staircase so third floor is what over here third floor is the brahmajyoti fourth floor is parmatma fifth floor is bhagwan so by the process of ashtanga yoga one can come to the process of process of brahman realisation by the level of brahman realisation and when one comes there if one wants to go further from that upwards then one can go only by the process of bhakti yoga that’s why let’s discuss this a little bit more to understand this just a minute let me complete some things then we will have questions difference between bhakti yoga and other processes so first point is bhakti yoga is like elevator easier and swifter there are two characteristics of lift so bhakti yoga other point is bhakti yoga alone takes us to the top floor that is bhagwan realisation so jnana yoga takes to the level of brahman realisation this is what is discussed in the 18th chapter from 18th chapter verses 49 onwards the process of jnana yoga is described and then this is so this is 18.54 18.54 is so that means he is saying once one comes to the brahman platform then one gets bhakti so after one gets bhakti then then by bhakti one will attain the bhagwan platform one will actually realise krishna so actually the other processes are difficult and they don’t also lead to the ultimate destination similarly the process of jnana yoga it takes us to the paramatma level and after that depending on the conception of the person either the person can rise upwards if the person becomes a devotee or the person can come downwards to brahman realisation if that person remains a person gravitates towards impersonalism so I will discuss more later but let’s take questions now resume action so now in that case a bhakti yogi is not passive he is also active but he will be doing bhajan all the time like we see bhagwan Thakur so after jnana yoga they may go directly to that stage is it necessary for a person to come to action after the jnana yoga stage because it may be like sarup siddha and in his subtle body spiritual body is acting in the spiritual world but in his siddha they are ok so if a person does jnana yoga then does the person have to do activity again because the person may just go into samadhi directly so the person may be inactive at the physical level but still within samadhi in the spiritual pastime the person is active so activity is something which has to be done so there is a there are several books which are written by bhaktivinoda thakur in a conversation or novella format one of them is prema pradeep and prema pradeep as well as in jaiva dharma is also similar like that so there he describes about yogis who are bhaktas who use yoga sadhana to make spiritual advancement and the background is that there is a brahma samaj follower who comes to check out on what the vaishnavas are doing and he sees some of the vaishnavas are yogis so he feels that these yogis are more respectable than the vaishnavas because he thinks the yogis are at least doing some austerity but the vaishnavas they are doing all kind of debauchery and basically sahajiyas are doing that so he thinks all vaishnavas are like that only so he has greater respect for the yogis than for the vaishnavas but then he meets a yogi who is actually a vaishnava in the sense that he is doing yoga to attain vaishnava siddhi to attain the lotus feet of lord vishnu and he is very surprised then this yogi he tells him that how vaishnavism is so exalted and if you want to know more you should go to my guru he says who is your guru and he mentions the famous vaishnava guru he says oh really he says you are such a renounced yogi and that vaishnava is your guru he says yes he is very advanced and then he goes to that vaishnava guru and then he finds that whatever he has heard about vaishnava that they are debauchees and all this they are not true at all and then this vaishnava guru tells him the guru of the yogi who is also a vaishnava he says that actually yoga sadhana is helpful if somebody wants to control one’s senses but yoga sadhana because it is mechanical it can also obstruct one in the devotional path because it one doesn’t really get the training or the inclination to beseech the lord’s mercy and therefore he says that yoga sadhana can aid in the practise of bhakti yoga sadhana means that process but it is not essential and where it can be avoided it should be avoided so the point is that the idea that actually yoga involves a lot of physical and mental things and the spiritual comes quite late so its like physical mental spiritual and devotional spiritual basically means at the brahman level so devotional is a higher within the spiritual one so because of that when one is going through the gradual process upwards one can get habituated to depending on one’s own efforts which makes it difficult to beseech the lord’s mercy so eventually one has to do activity in the spiritual level so whether it is at the spiritual level or at the material level the principle is that activity has to be done and if one is habituated to passive meditation then even activity at the spiritual level doesn’t appear palatable or very easy, very natural so that’s why that is not considered anukul but if somebody feels it necessary its not exactly its not that everything that is not anukul has to be pratikul its not necessary but it can be done clear yes the third canto as well as the sixth chapter describes that he develops some kind of affection towards paramatma and with that affection he sees the lord and wants to take darshan.
Naradbhuli was also doing something similar, he got the darshan then he was wanting to take darshan more. This is one question about he has the affection that he also develops and second is that Dhritarashtra was given the process of Ashtanga Yoga by Bhudura so was it in the line of bhakti or outside the line of bhakti and why was it given that so first point is there are yogis who have affection for the lord and yes now if you see one among the four yuga dharmas is kruteyad dhyayato vishnu so dhyan yoga is in a sense considered to be the yuga dharma for a particular age for satyuga and if we see the process that is followed by the dhruv maharaj or as described in the bhagavatam or even in the bhagavad gita to a large extent it is quite a devotional process in the sense that it is described that the ultimate goal is krishna 6.30 krishna described 6.15 krishna described that actually so actually one has to fix the mind on me so here the point that we are making is that when the bhakti scriptures bhagavad gita is largely a bhakti scripture or even the bhagavatam is a bhakti scripture when the bhakti scriptures talk about the process of yoga they talk about it in a devotional way only just like the third canto talks about sankhya now sankhya if we look at it as one of the six systems of philosophy and look at the writings of kapiladeva or ishwara krishna which are considered the traditional writings on sankhya then there is no reference to devotion in those writings so that means if you want to look at yoga the standard book for yoga is patanjali yoga sutra in patanjali yoga sutra there is mention of ishwara as one surrenders to ishwara ishwara pranidhan but there is not much description of who is that ishwara and how that ishwara what that ishwara does in his spiritual world and ishwara is just in a sense one element on the path of yoga very important element but is not the ultimate element and also within the yoga sutra as taught by patanjali the ultimate goal of yoga is described as yoga chitta vritti virodha that means one should stop the movement of all consciousness so the perfection of yoga as is described in patanjali yoga sutra is the elimination of the difference between the perceiver and the perceived you remember I discussed about in conscious experience there is the subject there is the object and there is the stream of consciousness so within patanjali yoga sutra the ultimate perfection of dhyana is to remove the subject and the object and just have the stream of consciousness so that means patanjali yoga sutra in and of itself is not a devotional book although it is not directly anti devotional but it is not a devotional book but when that yoga sadhana is described in the vaishnava books then it will be described how vaishnavas can use it how they can use it to attain vaishnava sadhana just like kapila sankhya kapildev in bhagavatam who describes it he describes it how that can be used as a means to attain bhakti so that means the systems in and of themselves may not be devotional now we can always argue that actually they are meant to be devotional but people are not understood that way that is fine that is also true in the conclusive sense but the way the systems are understood in today’s mainstream mainstream intellectual world whether in our times or whether in earlier times now sankhya is considered to be non theistic yoga is not considered to be in and of itself devotional but when we are talking about the four yuga dharmas and the yoga sadhana that is done and during the in the through the dhyana process that is entirely a bhakti process that is followed so that means when the devotees or the devotionally minded people practise yoga they practise it with a very clear devotional objective and that is how they attain the supreme lord by that so even the other yogis they have attraction to they may have some attraction to the super soul because after all the whole process of yoga is meant to dhyana vastu tat gatena manasa pashyanti they want to behold the super soul in the heart but then afterwards they may have some affection but eventually they may feel that I have to merge into the super soul so that may happen but generally speaking whatever examples of bhagwatam are there, they are of devotees practising yoga as a means to a devotional end is the difference clear is it clear to others or it was just too complex what I was saying ok second question was what ok Dhritarashtra actually speaking because of his offences to the devotees he was not directly qualified to practise bhakti and he was given the process of dhyana and he basically attained elevation so now he did not go back to the supreme lord directly atleast that is what the bhagwatam says that is what Chakravartipada also says there is one letter of Prabhupada which seems to say that he went back to the spiritual world but generally speaking the standard is that if there is a difference between what the purports say and what a letter says then the purport should be given a higher authority same related question ok the aim is to one impersonalistic concept again means the Patanjali yoga is impersonalistic concept is Patanjali yoga impersonalist there is some evidence that Patanjali himself was a Vaishnava there is an article also I think it was published in BTG and there are devotees who are doing some research on it there is one scholar a Gaudiya Vaishnava scholar Edwin Bryant he has written a seminal commentary on Yoga Sutra he is it is a very exhaustive commentary and he is like the number one Yoga Sutra scholar now and he has given he has quoted a lot of Bhagwatam has been commented, Bhagavad Gita has been commented Yoga Sutra has been also commented by many people so his commentary on the Yoga Sutra is quite devotional and he shows how many of the stalwart commentators on the Yoga Sutra gave it a devotional meaning also, so I wouldn’t say that Yoga Sutra in and of itself is impersonalistic basic point is that it just doesn’t refer to the absolute truth much so it doesn’t refer to it just tells that there is a Ishwara and one has to surrender to the Ishwara so this can be taken in a devotional way because in Bhakti we surrender to the Ishwara but even in the impersonalist way also Bhakti is a sadhana one surrenders to the Ishwara and afterwards one transcends one goes beyond the Ishwara also so we don’t have to go so far as to say that Yoga in and of itself is impersonalistic but in the Yoga Sutra itself in the Patanjali Yoga Sutra itself there is not much description directly of Bhakti or of Bhagwan so it can be used both ways that’s why books have to be seen in their context now for example, yesterday I was talking about Bhakti you know Bhakti as we practise in Krishna consciousness in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition in ISKCON we don’t find that much, that kind of Bhakti in the Bhagavad Gita directly Bhagavad Gita there is no reference to anybody dancing and singing isn’t it? nowhere like that in fact even in the Bhagavad Gita dancing and singing is referred to very rarely there is only in the 11th Canto Unmadayanti Gayanti Lokabahaya only verses there but in Chaitanya Charitamruta, dancing and singing is much more so what does it mean? actually these three form a continuum so in Bhagavad Gita the goal is not to describe how Bhakti is to be practised it is just to describe which is the best sadhana and how it is to be practised is described elsewhere so similarly Yoga Sutra is not a book that is going to describe about Bhagwan elaborately that’s not the purpose of the book the purpose of the book in fact the whole Yoga Sutra is more about techniques and practises than about philosophy and doctrines so there is not much philosophy Yoga Sutra is a very small book actually there are only few hundred verses you can read the whole Patanjali Yoga Sutra in one or two hours so it is a very small book just like Vedanta Sutra also can take one or two hours to read the whole Vedanta Sutra and you can take maybe hundred lifetimes to understand it so Yoga Sutra is not so complex to understand Vedanta Sutra is much more complex to understand but the point here is that we don’t have to say that Yoga Sutra is non-theistic now Balavidya Bhushan in his Govinda Bhashya he does refute Yoga as one of the Siddhantas which are not faithful to the conclusion of the Vedic scriptures so when he basically he refutes Sankhya and when he refutes Sankhya he doesn’t refer to Kapil Dev Sankhya he refers to Sankhya as it is understood by the mainstream Sankhya philosophers and he says what is wrong with Sankhya philosophy he will explain and then he will say what is wrong with Yoga philosophy what is wrong with Vipamsa philosophy so basically what is Vedanta Sutra Vedanta Sutra is basically a set of Sutras very short statements by which all other all other conclusions apart from the conclusion of the path of Vedanta that Brahman is the highest reality they are all contradicted they are all refuted so Balavidya Bhushan does refute Yoga also but when he refutes Yoga what is he refuting exactly the word Yoga can have multiple meanings so then he will define like yesterday I said that Bhagwat Sandarbha is about Bhagwan but Bhagwan has a particular definition which is what you were talking about similarly Balavidya Bhushan in the Govinda Bhashya he gives this is what I mean by Yoga that the idea of Yoga leading to ultimate reality where the highest experience is just non-dual consciousness that is what he refutes so that means we shouldn’t think of the schools of thought as static the schools of thought also change if you look at say Shankaracharya’s Advaita Vedanta and you look at Swami Vivekananda’s Advaita Vedanta huge difference between the two and if you look at say for that matter even Chaitanya Maha Goswami’s description of the practise of Bhakti and ISKCON’s practise of Bhakti there is a huge difference it is not that it is entirely different it is a continuation but there are substantial differences in the 64 elements of Bhakti there are no references to preaching at all 64 elements of Bhakti there is no reference to preaching and Prabhupada said preaching is the essence so does that mean that Prabhupada is not being faithful to Rupa Goswami? No in every tradition there is something central and then there is something contextual so when the Goswamis were formulating the 64 principles of Bhakti more or less there was a spiritual culture itself and the whole idea was the focus was on transcending material existence by absorbing oneself in Krishna so now the Goswamis themselves wrote books and they encouraged their disciples to preach also so we know Srinivasacharya and Narottam Das Thakur and Shyamad Pandit they went to the Gauda Desha again and they preached extensively so we understand that preaching will be included in the vidhis like Shravana Kirtana and other vidhis ultimately what are we doing when we are preaching? we are doing Shravana Kirtana somebody else is doing Shravana we are doing Kirtana, whatever way it is so what I am saying is we shouldn’t think of traditions as static, just as Bhakti tradition will vary, Yoga tradition also varies so when Baldev Vidyabhushan is refuting Yoga he is refuting the term Yoga and the concept Yoga as it was understood at his time so he is not rejecting Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra per se the understanding of Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra that was there at that time, that he is refuting but the Patanjali Yoga Sutra in and of itself is neither directly devotional nor directly impersonal it is basically a set of techniques by which one can go from matter to subtle matter to spirit but doesn’t really describe what is the spirit directly is it clear? yes Kanhai Krishna generally we understand inaction to be physical inaction that’s what you also said that when you are talking of Gyan Yoga and Dhyan Yoga you didn’t include the action element, physical action correct so is it that Gyan Yogis and Dhyan Yogis they don’t involve their physical self in any material activities as is my understanding but at the same time we also read in Ashtang Yoga 6th Chapter 6.3 verse which says that for a neophyte work is said to be the means so they do act then in that case and also you were making a point saying that they might not act physically but they are acting mentally so what is the correct understanding of action what is the correct understanding of action, do the Gyanis and Yogis act or don’t act in the process of Ashtang Yoga I mentioned how Yam Niyam Asana Pranayam can be practised even while one is doing Karma Yoga, so certainly at that time action is there in Pratyahara when there is withdrawal at that time the action is supposed to decrease substantially so that means that one is trying to shut off the senses but that’s not what the Yogi is going to do 24 hours a day the Yogi also has to eat and for that it is described Yuktahara Viharasya Yuktahara Viharasya is 5.18 and immediately, sorry 6.18 and then 19 and 20 are describing immediately Yadavinyatam Chittam what is that what is that it’s to some extent for the sake of survival it’s a necessary distraction but it is not said to contribute in any way to spiritual advancement directly and the goal is to go beyond it and as one nears Samadhi then one shuts off all action completely so this is with respect to yoga path yeah so as an example Dhruv Maharaj initially was eating fruits, leaves and then gradually he stopped even doing all those things so from yoga Rokshu to yoga root stage yeah so our root stage as one moves forward the activity is expected to go down more and more now with respect to Gyana the Sadhana of Gyan that is described it comes in the 18th chapter 9 onwards yeah so till here 18.48 Krishna is describing Karma Yoga and he says actually when you are acting all action will be covered by fault but after that from 49 to 54 53 he describes Gyana Yoga Sadhana so by renouncing everything one will attain that is ultimate Siddhi and then he describes here and then he says I will describe it I will describe it and then these three verses are the primary verses in the Bhagavad Gita which talk about Yoga Sadhana and what is the characteristic so keep the intelligence purified control one’s self shut out all sense perceptions give up attachment attachment and aversion stay in secluded place eat but eat very little and then be renounced in everything and then whatever 16th chapter is demoniac give them all that is there in the 16th chapter so so basically if you look at these qualities that are described they are all focussing on silencing pacifying and avoiding activity in general so Gyan Yoga in general involves inner contemplation largely Gyan Yoga if he is to eat some amount of action has to be there just like in the path of Ashtang Yoga also but it is expected to be minimum and in the path of Gyan it is understood that action will lead to bondage therefore the ideal is to give up action completely is it clear? yes Piyoji but what do they do finally because they don’t have meditation element also no so they have renounced karma speculation that’s a big big activity you know it can go on speculation can go on you know if somebody has that taste for speculation you know no I mean actually for the there was a famous chess player Bobby Fischer so he said you know I love chess because the orderliness of the chess board is far preferable to the disorderliness of life so his idea was that actually for him the chess board was like liberation you just forget all the miseries of life so if somebody is intellectual people can just go on you know there was a philosopher who said he was asked what is your definition of hell he said hell means other people so his idea was just be alone of course after he writes books he wants other people to read his books so the point is if somebody has this intellectual taste for people can just go deep into that and just so Henry David Thoreau wrote a book called Walden I think so he went to the he created a hut on the side of a river and he lived complete solitude for quite a few months or a year or something like that and that has become like a classic in classic not just as a book but as a ideal of isolation from the world and many people have tried to follow in his footsteps so the idea is that for people who are intellectual just contemplation that is very relishable so they just get into that and especially that contemplation is going to lead to the idea that you know I am one with the absolute truth I am the absolute truth then that contemplation doesn’t just remain intellectual also the element of ego comes into it because I am going to become something great through this contemplation that is their primary activity so it is not like dhyan yogis who sit at one place and keep on meditating they might be moving around they might be they might be in the world but they are not participating their attitudes are mentioned in these verses which you said and they are not engaging in any sort of material dealings activity which are giving them results because we read in Bhagavatam in many places that you know after leaving the home then the person travelled all over the country went to the forest went to the rivers so are those the symptoms of dhyan yogi by studying the nature they are just contemplating and thinking about life or deeper subjects ok so if some people are wandering around to various places and contemplating are those the signs of dhyan yogis so we have to differentiate between dhyan and dhyan yoga dhyan is the element of almost all yogas even bhakti also involves dhyan karma also requires some dhyan only then it will become karma yoga karma yoga also requires some dhyan because that is how the person will be detached from the roots of the work but when you talk about dhyan yoga then the primary focus is on inner contemplation so travelling around and moving around that is more a characteristic of sanyasi sanyasi may be seeking to practise dhyan yoga but the serious practise of dhyan yoga is basically inner speculation so that outer observation may also be a part of it so now if you look at the two brahmanas the avadhut brahmana and the avanti brahmana that comes in the 7th canto and the 11th cantos now if you look at the core content of their teachings there is not directly much devotional element in their teachings now prabhupada explains everything in devotional way but if you look at the sanskrit and the translations only and if you look at chakravarti path’s commentary actually speaking the teachings that they are giving are centred more on detachment from the world and connection with the absolute truth so their whole lifestyle is such that they are not actively engaged in devotional service so those are inclined towards jnana but are they exactly jnana yogis? chakravarti path doesn’t really say that that they are jnana yogis so that may also be something an activity that jnana yogis do travelling around and observing but that is not the central part of jnana sadhana, jnana yoga sadhana jnana sadhana is primarily inner speculation one last thing on the karma sannyas which you are going to discuss today and I was asking you is karma sannyas equal to jnana yoga? ok is karma sannyas equal to jnana yoga? let’s go back here so the word karma sannyasa comes primarily in 5.2 I think sannyasa karma yogasya nishreya sakarao bhau tayostu karma sannyasat karma yoga vishishyati so there what does it mean? Krishna is basically in 5.2 saying that sannyasa basically Arjuna is asking the question that should I fight or should I not fight? do you want me to do activity or not do activity? and he is confused and Krishna here answers by saying that actually both are good both karma yoga and karma sannyasa are good but among them karma yoga is better so he is saying tayostu among them better than karma sannyasa is karma yoga so karma sannyasa essentially if you look at the compound word it means giving up activity so now after one gives up activity one has to do something else so logically it will be gyan yoga because if one is actually seeking transcendence then one has to pursue transcendence by some sadhana and giving up activity is a characteristic of gyan yoga so in general karma sannyasa should lead to gyan yoga but the word karma sannyasa in and of itself does not necessarily imply the practise of gyan yoga it is like a corollary the two should be connected corollary means one leads to the other but still that one is not exactly the same as the other so karma sannyasa is a characteristic of gyan yoga in general but in and of itself what it means is that one has given up activity is that clear some basic work for existence they have to do but gyan yoga means actually it has to be there is actually kamyakarma, nityakarma so kamyakarma is work that is done for the gaining of fruitive results in this world and nityakarma is the activity that one does for as a prescribed dharmic duty so this is going to come in 18th chapter so nityakarma is like sandhya vandan so that is something which is normally to be done even by sannyasis even by those who have announced the world basically but kamyakarma is the work that is done for gaining some specific results in this world like say putrakam to get a son, so this is something which has to be given up so generally speaking the gyani definitely has to give up kamyakarma so normally speaking if one is doing one’s prescribed duties means not prescribed duties in the dharmic prescribed duties, religious duties but worldly duties a gyan yogi cannot be working as a brahman, kshatriya, vaisya, shudra the gyan yogi is detached from the world and in the forest the gyan yogi might be doing some basic thing for maintaining his body and soul together but one who is participating in varnashram is not considered a gyan yogi, actually one has to leave varnashram if one wants to practise gyan yoga sannyasis are in a sense they are within varnashram and they are nearly almost on the borderline of varnashram borderline they are the summit of varnashram but they are almost like about to go out of the reach of varnashram because they are going to renounce and attain transcendence so the gyanis can be situated in sannyas and in that sense they can be in a marginal way practising in varnashram but largely they are outside they are not doing activities as brahman, kshatriya, vaisya, shudra Clear? Yes, Kannan Krishna Fundamental question that in vedic life we see this yoga ladder so how did it work like coming from karmakand you know all the way till bhakti yoga so like we have this goals of karmakand as dharma, artha, kama, moksha so within one lifetime itself the person reached up to the stage of like coming to nishkama karma yoga or it spanned over lifetimes you know how did it work actually when we say yoga ladder they elevated within lifetime or within lifetimes like that ok, in yoga ladder how did a person rise from one level to the next level well, Krishna does give one indication bahunam janmanam ante in 7.19 so it can take many lifetimes and Krishna also says with respect to bhakti in 7.3 manushyanam sahasresh the first part is not talking about bhakti just talking about general transcendence kashchid yatati siddhaye yatatam siddhanam kashchid mamitratam yatati refers to this endeavour for transcendence attaining him is attaining the endeavouring for the peak of transcendence for the summit of transcendence so both are there Krishna is saying that means the whole idea within the spiritual path is that once one gets some experience of spiritual reality then that keeps attracting a person in the 6th chapter Krishna says purvabhyasena tenaiva riyate yavasopisa purvabhyas by one’s purva practise riyate is attracted helplessly so now Prabhupada in this section in the purports of this section especially in the purport to 4.40 I think kalyanakrut not 4.40, 6.40 partha naiveha naamutra vinasyas tatsarita so with respect to kalyanakrut auspicious work Prabhupada says actually all transcendentalists are involved in auspicious work that means even if a person is practising gyan yoga, ashtang yoga, bhakti yoga, whatever they are all involved in kalyanakrut because they are trying to go out of the material world and when they are trying to go out of the material world they experience some glimpse of transcendence so when they experience that glimpse of transcendence at that time that keeps attracting them so even if one has got an experience of brahman reality then that will also attract so the basic principle within yoga ladder is the principle of attraction so even in the karmakand rituals there is the seed, there is the mention of Vishnu mantras and the chanting of Vishnu mantras sows the seed of transcendence over there and gradually depending on how the person practises spiritual, practises dharmic life that seed will grow and fructify so what happens within the structure of dharma is that one gradually loses taste for lower things and one develops taste for higher things, just like we look at grahastha ashram now what happens in grahastha ashram is a person is allowed regulated enjoyment but along with that the person is also told you have to practise dharma so when there is a practise of dharma then gradually by that practise of dharma one gets a realisation that this enjoyment is nothing really great, there is something higher, let me aspire for that on the other hand when there is no practise of dharma and when a person is just mundane sensual enjoyer then although there is no although one indulges in sense gratification but because there is no connection to any higher reality even if one is dissatisfied one thing I have to enjoy in different ways, I have to try this maybe I have multiple partners and I have this and that and a person stays dissatisfied so the connection with dharma is what helps us to sort of see through the illusions to some extent and look for something higher so that connection with dharma is what pushes a person upwards by giving a taste of higher happiness and by exposing the limitedness of the lower happiness If you see Bhagavad Gita Krishna is all time encouraging to do bhakti and before bhakti he is encouraging to do karma yoga, so in a normal traditional yoga ladder why this jnana yoga is higher and was this yoga ladder practised earlier also before Krishna telling and what was the situation or weightage given to jnana yoga or dhyana yoga at that time but in Krishna in Bhagavad Gita he is totally encouraging Arjuna to do karma yoga you mentioned about Uddhva Gita also but if you see Bhagavad Gita is a common book for many people so how we have to understand the whole context so what is the position of jnana yoga generally in yoga ladder because Krishna does not encourage jnana yoga at all practically speaking jnana yoga is definitely higher than karma yoga because at the basic level the person is no longer engaged in karmic bondage so it’s like if I am sick recovery has two aspects, I stop taking the food items or doing the activity that will make me sick further if I have diabetes one part of the cure is that I stop taking sweet items and the other part of the cure is I start taking the medicines regularly so jnana yoga in and of itself makes sure that I am not taking any more sugar items, any sweet items, I am not contaminating myself further with karmic bondage but the problem is that because jnana yoga does not have a sadhana which gives a really strong higher taste an accessible higher taste so the positive the other part, one part is avoiding the sickening substances and other is taking the curing substances taking the curing substances is very difficult so that’s why the process of jnana yoga, Krishna says that progress is difficult so gati refers to progress or movement that is difficult but in principle because the person is no longer entangled in karmic activities so that jnana yoga is considered higher so in principle jnana yoga is higher but in practise jnana yoga may not be easier it is not easier so in karma yoga also for all practical purposes one has to learn to regulate one’s interaction with the material world to a large extent one cannot engage in activities in an arbitrary way one engages in activities so that the person can become purified 5.11 Krishna describes that everything that one does all kinds of actions are for the purpose of atma shuddha so karma yoga also involves substantial amount of regulation but still there is allowance for activity so jnana yoga is higher in principle because there is no entanglement with material activities but in practise karma yoga is easier because one is continuing the natural tendency of acting and not trying to resort to inactivity so that’s how even in vedic culture jnana yoga was higher now as far as bhagavad gita is concerned you know bhagavad gita if you look at the overall message it is not that Krishna is always telling bhakti Krishna is telling how bhakti is the conclusion of various paths and how bhakti is the best of all paths but it is not that he is telling about only bhakti throughout you know he is analysing the three modes of material nature he is talking about the upside down banyan tree he is talking about now the virat purusha or the vibhuti yoga these are all aspects which culminate in bhakti but still it is not that throughout he is just talking only about bhakti so even he describes ashtanga yoga quite a bit and he describes how ashtanga yoga will conclude in bhakti but then when he is talking about ashtanga yoga he does talk about ashtanga yoga so the bhagavad gita describes how bhakti is the highest of all sadhanas that is true but it also describes the other sadhanas and we acknowledge their reality and we also acknowledge their potency although they are not as potent as bhakti sadhana but still they are potent clear so I think he is hinting also that you can reach to bhakti yoga through karma yoga more easily than gyan yoga so we have to take it as absolute like for if you want to convey the message also encouraging people so like krishna is encouraging all the common people that you go from karma yoga to bhakti yoga but you said in uddhava gita he is encouraging uddhava to go to gyan yoga from gyan yoga to bhakti yoga ok so what should we tell people because krishna is telling in bhagavad gita that from karma yoga it is easier to go to bhakti yoga whereas in uddhava gita he is saying that practise gyan yoga if you can’t practise bhakti the emphasis is always towards helping people progress so just like what is the past time in chaitanya chaitanya amrit where lord chaitanya told three brothers to do three different things one of them he told Vasudev Ghosh Govind Ghosh yeah all of them are not brothers ok one person can speak anyone who knows the full past time ok some other story is also there i think is it about Govind Ghosh yeah so basically the point is that some devotee may tell to that you should become a grahastha somebody else you can become a sanyasi so what does that mean it is according to time and place circumstances scriptures do they give absolute teaching there are some absolute principles are there but what will be we can say in one sense that brahmacharya ashram is better than grahastha ashram but that is not an absolute for everyone some people psychophysical nature may be such that for them grahastha ashram might be better so it is actually the tendency to draw absolutes is often attempt to avoid intellectual hard work but absolutes don’t work in real life we have to ourselves we can’t ultimately even when we surrender to the spiritual master the spiritual master cannot live our life for us i have to live my life for myself so i can say i should be a fool in front of my spiritual master that is true but ultimately i have to live my life of course following the instructions of the spiritual master but it is i who have to live my life and i cannot take absolute principles anywhere i think i mentioned last time there was incident of some devotees were reading previous acharyas books and the esoteric books and prabhupada came to know about it and then prabhupada was very upset and then he said rather than devotees reading such books such books should be burnt and then the devotees immediately prabhupada said all the books should be burnt so in front of krishnapalram mandir they made a bonfire and they got all the books of the previous acharyas and they were about to burn it and then one devotee filled it up he went to prabhupada did you say that the previous acharyas books should be burnt nonsense this book should be worshipped not burnt so the idea is when prabhupada was talking about the books being burnt he was saying that actually the devotees are not qualified or take for that example itself the prabhupada said devotees don’t bathe in radha kund now is that absolute principle that devotees should never bathe in the radha kund no because rukosa is talking about bathing and bhaktsan shakur has bathed all the acharyas have bathed in radha kund so there prabhupada was giving up a contextual thing so actually speaking within the scriptures we will have to see what is suitable so for some people jnana yoga may be suitable but for most people karma yoga is what is suitable for arjuna certainly karma yoga is suitable so in this 5.2 where he says that actually karma yoga is better although they both produce the same result so that means this becomes a contextual teaching of krishna to arjuna not to a specific or is it teaching for the kaliyuga people not before that is this a teaching for kaliyuga people or not or is it contextual see in in in spiritual life there are truths and there are applications of the truths I am not the body I am the soul that is truth but how am I going to realise that I am not the body I am the soul so that is the application part and application in general has to be contextual so in general karma yoga is better than karma sannyas because for most people inactivity is very difficult so actually inactivity is possible only for those people who are very deeply rooted in sattva guna very very deeply rooted in sattva guna because if you see sattva guna characteristics what is the characteristics sarva dvareshu dehesh prakashyam upajyaya so actually what happens in sattva guna is one is so much alive to to intellectual inputs through the various senses and one is so much active within intellectual contemplation one doesn’t feel the need for physical activity one is so active alive and satisfied within that so those people are very rare so in general this is a broad principle not contextual it is a broad principle that applies to most people but still it is not absolute for some people karma yoga may be they may be qualified for karma sannyas yeah here he is saying it is easy and we understood it is easy because and it is safe also because the chances of fall down are lesser because activities are involved so my question was that if we see from a different angle like if one is doing gyan yoga since the activities are not there he may fall down to activities so that is one fall down which we refer to because of which the nishkama karma yoga becomes better although the person may be at the level of gyan but he still practises nishkama karma yoga because he may fall down because of no activities but from the other perspective if you see if he does nishkama karma yoga then the activities themselves may bind him he may develop attachment towards those activities and then he may seek fruits also that is also a fall down so that risk is not being spoken so like that is what your question so we talk about the risk of a gyani falling back to mundane action but then there is a risk of in the karma yogi falling from karma yoga to karma bhoga that is that is also possible yeah definitely it’s like padam padam yad vipadam is for everyone it is not only for gyan yogis or it’s for everyone there is danger for everyone in general but for a karma yogi there is nishkama karma yoga there is sakama karma yoga that means that even if a karma yogi lapses into sakama karma for some time there doesn’t have to be a substantial disruption of the life for him to come back on track on the other hand if a gyan yogi lapses into karma then there is a substantial disruption another example is you know you can say that there is a chance for sensual fall even for grahasthas there is a chance for sensual fall even for brahmacharis but then when a grahastha falls as long as whatever is happening is within the frame of marriage there is illicit sex some devotees say there is illicit sex with a capital I and illicit sex with a small i so illicit sex with a small i means it is sex for non procreative purposes within marriage but illicit sex with a capital I is sex outside marriage sex outside the boundaries of dharma so the idea is that if a person is not able to follow the grahastha standards then that is a fall but that is a relatively minor fall but if a person goes outside marriage itself and has illicit sex that is a major fall so you know that means if a brahmachari falls to sex and that is far more detrimental and disruptive than a grahastha falling to sex so similarly of course in the brahmachari ashram also there are safeguards by which if one practises nicely then one will not fall but in the same way basically the karma yogi even if he falls to some kind of karmic activities that doesn’t disrupt the life so much because overall the action and the life is going to continue the same way so the person can rise and continue whereas if a jnani falls back you know it is said that it is almost like a vantashi vantashi is a person who eats his own vomit so it is considered to be quite a great disgrace for a person who is renounced to again come back to sensual enjoyment so in that sense the danger is greater but there is danger everywhere in the world we can’t deny that so even for karma yogi also the danger is there what about a jnani yogi who does action but he doesn’t claim the fruit for it like he may feel that I am doing it for elevating people to transcendence basically like for example if he opens a hospital and he is feeling ok at least I am doing some seva and by that you know I will also be able to elevate some people so he is not doing it for sake of fruits or something if a jnani yogi is doing activities for the sake of benefiting others then that is actually karma yoga because you know that is what is 3.20 so 3.19 or 20 for the sake of helping others for the sake of instructing and setting an example for society so that is being done that is actually karma yoga only if one is acting in the world whatever be the motive that becomes karma now the motive will certainly make a huge difference in terms of the results that one will get whether one will get bondage or not but still it is action so it is not really he may be a person who is in terms of detachment and realisation may be on the jnani yogi platform but he is practising karma yoga only at that time so that is why so therefore that is why because jnani yogi may also become a nishkama karma yogi only at the end because of not getting higher test so therefore nishkama karma yoga is always better even though one may be at a jnani stage correct, now jnani yogi becoming nishkama karma yogi means that still he has not sort of get caught by sensual desires but if he gets caught by sensual desires then the fall can be very great yes here in yoga ladder you were mentioning that karma, karma yoga, jnani yoga there you have already shown first the aspect of scripture and then you have written plus knowledge also how do you understand the scripture and knowledge ok good question so in karma kanda there is scripture and then in where is it in jnani yoga I talked about knowledge so basically here when we talk about scripture it is generally following scriptural authority it is not necessarily internal realisation of the scriptural knowledge scripture basically means, ok scripture says do this don’t do this, you follow that but when a person is practising karma at that time the person doesn’t necessarily have realised that I am not the body and the soul, scripture tell me do this, I do that, tell me don’t do this don’t do that, so there scripture basically refers to following scriptural guidelines whereas k the knowledge refers to realisation of the scriptural knowledge there is a difference between the two, is it clear we see one ashrama dharma so the aim is elevation of consciousness but we see that a person goes to brahmacharya then vanaprastha, vanaprastha he gives the body he goes to mahalog and and then further he takes sanyas but again the goal is brahman only there in one ashram dharma so where the element of bhakti comes or only bhakti reserved whenever you come to contact with the devotee otherwise you will gain the highest purushatha that is mukti in the one ashram dharma, the four purushathas are mentioned so how this people because how the whole system is made and finally the people are taking the result as mukti which is not the aim of life so why such a system is there where the final aim is not achieved so in varanashram the ultimate goal even for sanyasi vanaprastha will go to parloka, tapaloka and sanyasi will go to brahman so how does varanashram actually, where is bhakti in the varanashram system, see varanashram is talked about in the vedas to some extent and the vedic scriptures if you read them there is some elements of bhakti are there, elements of bhakti means as I said there is invocation of the supreme lord of the higher powers there is glorification there is supplication, supplication means bowing down and seeking mercy but the sort of navidha bhakti that is there, that is not there in the vedas directly so overall the vedic scriptures, every book has a particular focus and generally the teachings are presented in a way that that focus is served so the vedas the vedas, I mean I am referring to the four vedas primarily, rikshami, yajuratharva they are not directly focussing on transcendence and because they are not focussing on transcendence, they are primarily at the level of karmakand and at the level of karmakand the mukti is not really considered to be a very important goal in fact that is why there are people like Zakir Naik who try to quote the vedas and they say that actually the whole concept of reincarnation is not mentioned in the vedas only because actually speaking, it is not that it is not mentioned, there are verses which hint at it there are substantial number of verses which hint at it but the vedas themselves see at the level of karmakand, when I am thinking of attaining swarga then I really don’t want to think that my stay in swarga will end and again I will have to come back, I am only thinking of, I want to attain swarga and I want to enjoy over there so the samsara chakra which is, if my focus goes entirely on samsara chakra then the attractiveness of heaven will pale very much because what is so great about attaining heaven, if I ultimately have to come back from there so what happens is, in the karmakand scriptures, the temporariness of heaven, although it is there in the background, that is not the focus so similarly with respect to varanashram, the varanashram system that is presented in the vedic literature is at a karmakand level and the goal is talked about as elevation, so dharma artha kama ultimately leading to moksha, that is what is talked about, that is the vedic varanashram because that is primarily at the level of karmakand and then gradually it goes towards jnana kanda but we see that the bhagavatam calls the system as kaitava dharma, cheating religion, why is it called as cheating religion, because it doesn’t teach people the highest truth see the whole vedic process is that when one particular process is being recommended or taught, at that time, people are not demotivated by telling them about the flaws of that process because it just doesn’t work you know, if I am told you have to worship this particular god, but then you know he is not very powerful, but anyway worship him it is not going to work so and this is something which even Krishna says, if you in 7.20 Krishna says that whichever, if you want to desire to worship a particular form, 7.21 he says if you want to desire to worship, then I will make your faith strong so that’s why the vedas themselves do not talk about bhakti and do not talk about eternal goal in terms of personal spiritual existence they are focused on karma kand and getting people to practise punya clear you were telling in the yoga nadar ok same question speak loudly how is it that this is understood that one ashram dharma gives elevation there and this is not the focus, but that’s the majority people are following on the earth then majority of the people are there, so hardly if you see the vedic life, people are hardly in touch with the bhakti process the king is not a bhakta, if a king is bhakta then he will make the whole population bhakta like Kesa, Amrish Maharaj, Parikshit Maharaj if the king is not a bhakta, then like the system itself is a system which is full of so if the king is not bhakta then if people practise varna ashram, they will not practise bhakti, yes, but bhakti is durlabha bhakti, see in current times, what distracts people from bhakti is paap in vedic times, what distracted people from bhakti was punya so so punya if you see how many examples of this are there in the bhagavatam, where one is distracted from bhakti by a lower dharma Daksha is telling his sons do tosterity so that you can get children, Narad Bhooni comes and tells don’t need to do that, just transit similarly, Prachini Parishad is doing animal sacrifice and the lord is coming Narad Bhooni is coming and telling give it up similarly, we see the yagic brahmanas, they are doing yagya and they are considered to be lower than the yagic brahmana patnis who are doing bhakti so this dialectic of comparing a para dharma with para dharma, it recurs repeatedly in the bhagavatam so, and the bhagavatam also in the Chitra Ketu past time, when it is asked how Uttarasura is such a great devotee, I think it’s 9th chapter, 8th chapter, 6th canto he said that sudurlabha prashantatma kotishvabhi mahamuni that actually such a devotee is so rare, even in vedic times so the idea is that vedic culture offers a gradual path of elevation but for some people who want there is a rapid path of elevation also available the gradual path of elevation is through dharmartha gao moksha, so in general, people are kept on the track of elevation but my question is, till elevation, till moksha is there, but there is no track from moksha to bhakti when a person goes to brahmjyoti, then it’s like means life time or significant time is there in brahmjyoti and his purpose of life is lost no, so now, is it that in varanashram people will go to brahmjyoti, actually that dharmartha kama is what people, from kama to moksha number of people who go were quite rare people continue on dharmartha kama for a long time, and in general if a person has a serious spiritual inclination that person does also meet devotees so we shouldn’t think of moksha as a disaster moksha is also a very exalted goal, although when he is telling Prabodhan Saraswathi actually that is a devotional perspective of things it’s not that is literally like naraka it is an exalted destination but when contrasted with the sweetness of bhakti then it is intolerable it doesn’t offer any comfort to the heart any joy to the heart but still it’s an exalted goal so now vishwam that whole shloka that is there it is more of a it is more like an emotional expression of an experienced reality it’s like vishwam poornam sukhaayate does that mean that the world is not dukkhalayam ashashvatam it is still dukkhalayam ashashvatam but a devotee is experiencing sukha because of the devotion so it is a devotional reality that a devotee experiences and that is very important but that doesn’t mean that factually the world doesn’t remain dukkhalayam or that doesn’t mean that factually moksha is not a major goal it’s a worthwhile goal but as contrasted with bhakti with prema it is not so in the vedic process if people do dharma artha kama they can meet devotees by which they will also get elevated and they will go to prema otherwise they will go to moksha that is also it’s not that it is bad it is just that it is not the highest so now we shouldn’t equate moksha with mayavad there is a difference you have to be very clear about it the birth of a living means living entity’s existence is just to give pleasure to Krishna that’s why Krishna is a living entity but if that purpose is not solved whether a person is suffering in maya or whether a person is in impersonal jyoti what does that matter because the purpose of a person’s existence is not clarified, the person’s existence is to give pleasure to Krishna that’s what the jivas are made for but now that jiva suffers in maya or in peace in brahma jyoti what does it matter because the purpose of creation is for pleasure of Krishna correct so then how does moksha serve that purpose actually the miseries of material existence are so great that freedom from miseries is also a substantial achievement and that achievement is also a big relief there are two aspects, if I am sick and I am suffering to get rid of the sickness is also a relief better that I also get my health and energy back and I start my normal activities but becoming free from sickness is also a worthwhile goal now as we said that from moksha also a person can become elevated if required so the point here is that varanashram that’s why vishnupuran explains varanashram the ultimate purpose of varanashram is varanashram acharvata purushena pataparapuman vishnuraradhipanta nanyatta toshakaranam so that actual that means there is vedic varanashram which leads to gradual elevation then there is the vaishnavaranashram or dahivaranashram which just leads to prema from wherever one is, if one practises bhakti and what is there is called asarikvaranashram almost like it’s just by birth right so the vedic varanashram it leads people to progress and wherever they meet devotees whether it is while they are doing varanashram duties or whether it is when they are aspiring for moksha or even when they are attaining moksha if they interact with devotees they can still get elevated also so the point is that we cannot we don’t glorify varanashram independent of bhakti but varanashram as given in the vedas was an arrangement made for gradual elevation so what is made for gradual elevation can lead to distraction just like somebody may decide to worship a demigod and that person may become so fixed in the worship of the demigod that the person may just not be able to turn later on to the worship of Vishnu that possibility is always there but if the person is sincere, Krishna will guide that person forward upwards to a higher understanding and higher destination but that is so whenever there is one straight path to transcendence and whenever there are other paths which are progressively leading to transcendence that are offered the danger is always there that those other paths, people may get caught only in those paths and not rise higher but in general the broad vedic culture acknowledges the importance of having multiple paths because people have different inclinations and if you offer them only one path if they can’t take that path they will stay forever in mortal and existent suffering but if there are multiple paths according to their inclination they take some path and move somewhat forward somewhat upwards clearly the impersonal liberation is of two types one is merging the body of Krishna and one is going to Brahmjyoti so who achieves which one it decides based upon what and we say that after some time that person falls so is it like a mandatory he has to fall or he remains for some time or means he can be there only and what is the difference between the two types of merging merging the body of Krishna and is this fall down for becoming a devotee again when somebody falls from Brahmjyoti well about merging in the body of the lord, merging in Brahmjyoti I have not read anywhere any specific thing when you meditate on this you will merge into Brahman when you meditate on this you will merge into the body of the lord my understanding is that the merging into the body of lord is never permanent it is more like appearance just like Shishupal appears to merge into the body of the lord but eventually after that he gets a particular destination according to so the merging into the body of the lord because the lord’s body is Satchitananda and the lord is himself so every part of his body is himself so the idea of somebody else merging into his body what does that exactly mean so my understanding is that that merger is never permanent it is more of appearance afterwards depending on either they will merge into Brahmjyoti or whatever will happen afterwards so that is my understanding and as far as falling from Brahmjyoti is concerned Prabhupada takes the position that they do fall from Brahmjyoti Vishwanath Chakra Thakur says that they can stay in Brahmjyoti also forever if they attain Mukti they stay there forever so the broad understanding is that actually speaking it ultimately depends on individual desire that means Prabhupada’s reasoning is what that if a person attains Brahman but then the person desires activity somehow he is not satisfied with the activity the person is not qualified to move upwards the person has to come downwards so when this soul desires activity the soul will come to the material world and what kind of body will he get generally speaking it is because he doesn’t have any sinful desires so generally that person will get a sattvic body will it be a devotional not necessarily devotional it is sattvic because that person need not necessarily have devotional inclinations if he had devotional inclinations he could well have gone to Vaikuntha directly so generally because there are no sinful reactions the person gets a sattvic body and a sattvic body is to some extent receptive to the practise of bhakti but it is not equivalent to the practise of bhakti or even a human being also can have sattvic bodies yeah any other questions as a supreme destiny either as a brahmajyoti or paramatma or bhagwan is there only desires or yeah what makes a person convinced about what should be their highest destination when they are practising transcendence it is several factors it is their own past experiences their own past conception that they have formed their present association and their inclinations generally speaking the most important factor is association so if a person gets associated with devotees the person gets attracted to bhagwan otherwise generally speaking the person moves from moves towards spirit the first conception of spirit will be the opposite of matter and that will work out to be formless so we see Shukadeva Goswami also had that impersonal conception but when he heard from Vyasadeva indirectly of course to the woodcutter disciple then he got attracted to lord the supreme lord so generally speaking it is one’s own past experiences plus one’s association that determines what kind of conception one will have of the absolute truth and according that will determine which goal which aspect of the absolute truth one will pursue yeah continuing the similar question then what is the role of agyat sukhrti then in that case what is the role of agyat sukhrti agyat sukhrti occurs only when a person is doing some bhakti activities like say watering tulsi but without knowing that tulsi is the tulsi is actually goddess of devotion so when one does some bhakti activities but without knowing then that they are bhakti activities that is agyat sukhrti and that leads to that sort of you could say prepares the soil for the bhakti lata beach to grow so eventually later on may be by the association of some further association of devotees or some other thing that person will somehow start practising bhakti directly so bhakti onmukh sukhrti agyat sukhrti it prepares the soil for the practise of bhakti so generally if a person has an agyat sukhrti then it is quite likely that person will be attracted towards the bhagwan conception and then start practising bhakti so agyat sukhrti does play a significant role in helping a person to come towards bhagwan but if a person maintains other conceptions then that is depending on what kind of association and what kind of previous experience the person has had next was this in the yoga ladder you were telling the elevation is slowly in the consciousness level so this question came few days back also here many times it is given in certain puranas that by doing such activities a person directly goes to vaikuntha or by doing such activities he gets free of sins so does it happen that one example is on vaikuntha ekadashi day from vaikuntha dwara of Tirupati if somebody enters he will never return to this material world does it happen that sudden elevation in consciousness happens at that time and person goes back to spiritual world or what is that exactly on my website one person asked me a question saddam hussein was hanged on vaikuntha ekadashi day so what happened now apparently there is a puradik which says that if a person dies on vaikuntha ekadashi one will get liberated so we discussed this in our earlier class also when the scriptures especially the puranas give some promises those promises are they are patterns of possibilities they are not impossible exaggerations nor are they universal necessities that means if you say it is just purely exaggeration this doesn’t happen this is just told for the sake of glorification that’s not true, it can happen and we have examples of ajamil chanting just the name once or the person chanting haram and ram coming and the person getting liberated so this can happen they are patterns of possibilities but it is not necessary that it has to happen every time so there are three categories here I will write this down so so are they unrealistic? no, because they can happen and they have happened so they are not just unrealistic exaggerations on the other hand are they just are they something which always have to happen no because bhakti is not mathematical or mechanical it’s not that I do this much bhakti and I will get this much result sometimes there is sometimes there is this verse that one name of Ram is equal to thousand names of Vishnu and one name of Krishna is equal to three names of Ram why do I need to chant Hare Ram Hare Ram I will just chant Krishna Krishna Krishna only I will chant Hare Krishna maha mantra so why do I have to chant Ram so the idea is that actually this sort of comparative description is given to indicate the speciality of a particular incarnation and the names of that incarnation but the broad principle is of developing a relationship and relationship is based on the reciprocation of love so when we serve the spiritual master when we serve the acharyas we serve the supreme lord by following his instruction that’s how we express our love now if we are just thinking ok by chanting this name I will get this much result and by this name I will get this much result then that is basically a business like mentality and a business like mentality is not conducive for the development of love so this sort of description where there is some sort of quantified glorification then that is for the sake of inspiration in general it’s true that Krishna’s name is more potent but we don’t want to become, we don’t want to do business with Krishna and think that by chanting this name I will get more result our primary idea is that we want to become we want to develop a personal relationship with Krishna so bhakti is not mathematical or mechanical that I do this much then this much I have done by that love will occur so these are, they are what they are patterns of possibilities that should inspire us to follow the standard process I will explain this in a bit in a bit so here if you see the example is what is the conclusion of Shukadeva Goswami at the end of the Ajamil pastime and what is Prabhupada’s purport also so the pastime, the conclusion is that if Ajamil chanted once unconsciously and got such a glorious result then if we chant if chant consciously throughout our life will we not get the same result we will definitely get the result so there is a standard process and that is what should always be emphasised the standard process can in some cases give extraordinary results exceptional results to some people but that is not what a devotee demands in all cases what a devotee understands is yes this process can even give this result so it is so wonderful but let me right now follow standard process if it can give this result also then such small practise and if I practise lifelong definitely I will get the result so the idea is these are neither unrealistic exaggerations nor are they universal necessities they are possibilities from the possible results of the standard process which will inspire us to focus on practising the standard process this was Prabhupada’s mode somebody told Prabhupada when I chant Hare Krishna I see a white light keep chanting it will go away so they think seeing that white light is something very special Prabhupada said no actually you have to go deeper and actually you want to take darshan of Krishna so there may be some extraordinary results that may come like somebody says that I get dreams about Krishna so then what do we say well it is possible we are not denying the possibility that Krishna can come in somebody’s dreams but what is important is not what happens in our dreams but what is important is what happens after we wake up what do we do after we wake up so you know dreams happen not when we go real dreams are not those which happen when we go to sleep real dreams are those which do not allow us to sleep what does it mean what does it mean real dreams are those which do not allow us to sleep that means you know we feel that I want to do something for Krishna’s service and that is why we don’t feel lazy we don’t feel lethargic I have to do as much as I can with my energies so the whole process of bhakti is that we should follow the standard process and try to please Krishna as much as possible and we don’t demand results but where extraordinary results occur we see them as special mercy of Krishna Krishna can bestow mercy like this also surely if I keep practising he will bestow mercy on me also clear ok one last one or two last ok three ok fine see if something is said in scripture it will happen now we have to be very careful when we imply this kind of statement because we also see counterfactual results within the scripture also counterfactual means contrary that we will see in the scriptures that we also see that somebody can chant the name of once and he will be liberated but we see somebody like Bharat Maharaj who is almost at the bhava stage and he falls from there also so that means that we cannot take one statement of scripture in isolation we cannot take one statement of scripture in isolation we have to see the whole pattern you know when we insist on the literal interpretation of statement like this we can often end up with quite embarrassing situation there are some Christians who have the idea that when we accept Jesus as saviour we become free from all sufferings and they take this in such a literal way they say that actually if one surrenders to Jesus then you will become free from all sufferings means you will become free from all sicknesses also so all sicknesses means you will have no worthy disease and if you have specks your eyes will become perfect and you will not need specks and there are people who say that actually you know I have surrendered to Jesus now my vision has become perfect you try to read a book you can’t read a book because I don’t have enough faith in Jesus that’s why I am not able to read the book so there are some Christian denominations you know they say that taking medical treatment is a expression of your lack of faith in Jesus redeeming grace and they say actually if you had faith in Jesus immediately you will become perfect and these kind of right wing these are literally fanatical groups and now the American government has made a law that if any religious group intervenes with any medical treatment then that religious group will be outlawed so the fundamentalist Christians have become more reactionary because of this so the point is that there is certain material reality which if it is happening in a material level there might be a deeper meaning if somebody is chanting Hare Krishna and the person is not getting liberated and we see that is happening in so many people so that means that it may take some time to get liberated and it may not happen in this life it may happen in future life it may happen after a long time but we can get ourselves into all sorts of loops embarrassing loops if we just start saying that all the statements of scriptures have to be taken literally our philosophy is very deep and when we make this sort of absolutist claims we misrepresent the depth of our philosophy some people say simplistic we did a kirtan and so the rains came so now in principle what is it that actually when we harmonise with the universal government, the universal government provides necessities, if somebody says I did kirtan rains came so tomorrow if floods come people will say you are doing too much kirtan, stop kirtan what will you do at that time then? we shouldn’t be so naive to say that because I did kirtan rains came it is true but there is a principle over there if we just describe the practise without explaining the philosophy then we often open ourselves to ridicule and that’s why these sort of scriptural promises in fact these are one of the main reasons why many many intellectuals they go away from the Puranas and they say the Puranas are all they just get alienated by these sort of promises and they say Upanishads are much better only so Puranic promises if you see ok one more point is Jayapathakabhara asked Prabhupada about this there are so many glorifications of that so he asked Prabhupada said that is for new people all those promises are for new people that means the idea is that those people are in a very business like mentality ok if I do this I will get this I will do this I will get that so he said for devotees we are interested in developing a relationship with Krishna we are not so much interested in these promises clear? ok so we will continue question and answer this is our last question in the yoga ladder this Gyan Yoga so Karma Yoga has detachment so what I am understanding detachment means he has some transcendental knowledge to be to develop that detachment like knowledge of not the body I am not the body I am soul there is some reality which is beyond me what is that? I don’t know may be Brahman may be Paramatman may be Bhagwan some aspect of there is some higher reality hmm that is called as detached then only detachment will come I have to move forward this what practise whatever I am doing now is not sufficient I have to do something more now that could be may be enjoyment in next life or it could be that I want to get liberated out of the cycle of birth itself so is that correct that detachment yeah of course so the detachment is based on Gyan that’s why Nishkama Karma Yoga also has Gyan in it and the fourth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita that is transcendental knowledge in Sanskrit it is called as Gyan Karma Sanyasa Yoga so that chapter the Gyan that is talked about is not a Gyan Yogi it is the Gyan that develops within a Karma Yogi by the practise of Karma Yoga so definitely if the Karma Yogi doesn’t have some Gyan there will be no impetus to do the Yoga part of it because only when one has Gyan of some eternal destination one will want to connect with that destination through Yoga and as one practises Karma Yoga that Gyan will deepen further thank you very much we have this series of questions in this only so this Gyan is of some eternal reality that means it could be Brahman, Parmatma, Bhagwan either of the three so he knows I am not the body I am soul and also he knows that the cycle of birth and death has to be transcended so Brahman, Parmatma and Bhagwan and then when you said knowledge comes in Gyan Yoga so then here Bhagavad Gita is saying Arjuna is asking so many sacrifices which one I should do I mean the knowledge Krishna is saying that the sacrifice in knowledge is better than sacrifice without the knowledge so then the topic comes of Guru that actually the Guru reveals the knowledge with that knowledge one can do sacrifice that will lead to result that means in Karma Yoga also the Guru comes Guru factor comes Karma Yoga, Gyan Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga and Bhakti Yoga all this four the Guru will become prominent person is that correct ok Guru required in all the processes yes now the understanding of the Guru may not be the same as in Vaishnava understanding that means one may not consider the Guru to be absolute authority one may not consider the relationship with the Guru to be eternal one may not necessarily consider the Guru to be a pure devotee of the Lord so the conception of the Guru may be different but the principle of a Guru as a teacher who guides and educates that is there in all parts sorry yeah Brahmanas themselves act as Gurus in general if you see in the Karmakand path the even the relationship of Ram with Vashishtha or Vishwamitra or for that matter of Pandavas with Dhaumya or Drona it is not the formalised Guru-Disciple relationship that we see within Vaishnava circles they have a general respect for Vedic culture and they have they have taken incision from particular Guru but along with that it is not that in the path of the Mahabharata Ramayan they are primarily demonstrating life at the Karmakand level with Punya involved in it so there it is not the Guru is controlling and intervening in all aspects of life the disciple has his own life and the Guru is a very important part of the disciple’s life but the Guru the Guru doesn’t intervene or overbear in all parts of the disciple’s life because the disciple in Karmakand is definitely not at that level of surrender The knowledge of transcendence is given by the Guru is that correct? Well yeah not necessarily only by the Guru, there can be many Gurus also, so it’s like if you see Lord Ram when he goes in the forest he meets many many saints and he takes instruction from those saints, even Pandavas when they are in the jungle they take instruction from various saints so yes there is a principle that there is a teacher from whom one takes initiation but one can get knowledge from various Gurus just like we have Shiksha Guru and Diksha Gurus and through that what glories of transcendent knowledge are described in four chapters, after this verse which comes in like so many glories are there, the characteristics of that knowledge when one is in knowledge so all those they are referring to the glories of knowledge which we receive from the Guru or which is the effect of performing the Nishkama Karma because there are two types of Gyan now one is that we get the knowledge from the Guru and maybe Sadhus also Ok, so the characteristics from 3.36 to 3.39 not 4.36 to 3.39 which are described all those that are described how do they result? So actually Tadvidhi Pranipatin is 4.34 and after that the next verse describes what is the result of this knowledge and that is that one sees all living beings are situated in me so actually that means by receiving knowledge from the spiritual master and by internalising that knowledge through the practise of Karma Yoga, one will get this vision of seeing all living beings as being situated in the supreme spiritual reality in Krishna and when one gets that then the results come about so what is described in 3.36 onwards to 3.38, those three verses the glories of transcendental knowledge they are when one comes to this so now this is not like digital logic, it’s not that when you get that only then all the results come about it’s like these are results which will come as knowledge deepens so just as greater the knowledge, the more the karma will get burnt more the knowledge, the more one will become purified the more the knowledge, the more one will become Ramati Vindati Kalen Atmani Vindati one will delight in that spiritual reality Thank you very much, so we will have a break for around 15 minutes and then we will meet at around 11.25 and we will start with the 11th chapter Thank you very much